Ammo question for an old P6.

[CSW]

I own a 3/'82 Sig P6 that runs like a charm when fed ball ammo. I've tried at least 4 different types of HP, to no avail...the bullet always gets jammed on the feed ramp.
Knowing that this is a common condition with the P6, I was wondering if anyone who owns one has ever tried Critical Defense ammo in theirs, and what the results were? It appears that it would work, as the nose of the CD is sorta 'ball like'.
Gold dot won't feed. The G2 version.
Hydras won't.
HST won't.
Cheap Remington HP won't.

So It won't feed HP.
The second question/comment is, there used to be a company or smith that could change the feed ramp angle to allow these fine guns to feed anything. Anyone remember who?

[fatdog]

No longer have that gun, but dropping a P225 barrel into mine completely solved that problem for me.

The only jhp round I recall that it fed before the barrel swap was Federal 9BP 115gr.

[revchuck38]

I've run ~150 rounds of 124-grain +P HST through mine (dated 11/78) and it was flawless. I will note that that was with magazines from probably the last production run of 225 mags. I don't remember if I tried it with the original magazines.

One thing you might try would be replacing the original magazine springs with Wolff extra-power ones. I did that with the two original magazines and the one Pro Mag I bought because it was the only one I could find at the time and they've been 100% with ball ammo.

As noted above, Federal's 9BP round was designed to run in guns that only run on ball. It's not as good as HST or Gold Dot, but it had a good reputation back in the day.

[OlongJohnson]

The second question/comment is, there used to be a company or smith that could change the feed ramp angle to allow these fine guns to feed anything. Anyone remember who?

That's the kind of question I would search on over at the green and blue forums.

[MattyD380]

I remember taking my P6 to the range along with a Springfield EMP. I was vetting the EMP with HPs—it failed miserably.

Then, knowing the P6’s rep for not feeding HPs, I tried the same ammo in the P6. It went through a full mag, no problems. Weird. Though I didn’t shoot any more than that.

I can’t for sure remember what brand of JHPs I was using… but I think they were Hydrashoks. Which I think you said you already tried? So, yeah, I realize that’s like zero help. Mine’s an ‘82 P6, which (I think) is well before the P225 feed ramp change. Maybe the mags do have something to do with it, as Revchuck said. My mags def don’t seem beat up and janky… so maybe they’re newer than the actual gun?

Also, mine was a BKA issue P6. Most I’ve seen are NW (Northrhine Westphalen… I think?). I wouldn’t think there’d be any difference, but who knows. Maybe the BKA ordered different specs with the feedramps vs. other agencies.

Edit: I checked my post (about the EMP) from 2019. I was using hydrashoks.

[DaBigBR]

Maybe Robert Burke for somebody that could modify the existing barrel, but sourcing and dropping in a 225 barrel would likely be cheaper and faster.

[Hambo]

As noted above, Federal's 9BP round was designed to run in guns that only run on ball. It's not as good as HST or Gold Dot, but it had a good reputation back in the day.

We issued 9BP and 9BPLE for at least a decade. New designs are better, but I wouldn't lose sleep if I had to carry either of those now.

[CSW]

That's the kind of question I would search on over at the green and blue forums.

'scuse please, I don't get the color reference???


One thing you might try would be replacing the original magazine springs with Wolff extra-power ones. I did that with the two original magazines and the one Pro Mag I bought because it was the only one I could find at the time and they've been 100% with ball ammo.


ALL of the springs in the pistol and mags were changed when I got the pistol back from my father in '20.


9BPLE

This ammo is +P+. Would an early 80's Sig be rated for such?

Thanks so far fellas.

[OlongJohnson]

'scuse please, I don't get the color reference???

Blue. (https://www.sigtalk.com/)

Green. (https://sigforum.com/eve/forums?csra=Y&s=674608412)

[revchuck38]

This ammo is +P+. Would an early 80's Sig be rated for such?

I'm pretty sure no pistols are certified for +P+ since there are no specs for it except "hotter than +P". That said, I don't think running enough to vet it would hurt it, the P6s were designed to run on NATO-spec ball.

Federal shows their current version of the 9BP load here (https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/train-protect/train-protect/11-TP9VHP1.html), though they don't call it that anymore. They actually have it in stock, too.

[CSW]

Blue. (https://www.sigtalk.com/)

Green. (https://sigforum.com/eve/forums?csra=Y&s=674608412)

Ah yes.
Belong to both, but they tend to be long in the tooth : not consise like the PF hive.


I'm pretty sure no pistols are certified for +P+ since there are no specs for it except "hotter than +P". That said, I don't think running enough to vet it would hurt it, the P6s were designed to run on NATO-spec ball.

Federal shows their current version of the 9BP load here (https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/train-protect/train-protect/11-TP9VHP1.html), though they don't call it that anymore. They actually have it in stock, too.
Thanks for the heads up.

[Jim Watson]

9BPLE is said to be a "mild" +P+, just over SAAMI.
Me? I have carried plain vanilla 9BP ever since M. Ayoob recommended it. I know there are higher tech higher velocity hollow points but I don't care to spend the time and money keeping up with the Joneses on the Bullet of the Month.

I am sure the Sig boards will have names of shops to recut your feed ramp, it was a routine operation when P6s were rolling off the ships.

Robert Burke is at https://www.thesigarmorer.com
Have to ask if he cares to bother with a single step job like that.

[Hambo]

This ammo is +P+. Would an early 80's Sig be rated for such?



I'm pretty sure no pistols are certified for +P+ since there are no specs for it except "hotter than +P".

revchuck38 is correct on that, and that a little won't hurt anything. It was a duty round, not a training round, so nobody shot thousands of rounds of it. The guys with SIGs didn't have any problems. If it worries you, just go with the 9BP. It was our MP5 round because +P+ definitely was not recommended in them.

[willie]

We issued 9BP and 9BPLE for at least a decade. New designs are better, but I wouldn't lose sleep if I had to carry either of those now.

I have a small supply of this round in standard pressure and +p+. The original poster can pm me if he wishes to experiment.

I have a suggestion which will sound simplistic. Buy Flitz polish and use a Q tip and elbow grease to polish the feed ramp. Don't laugh. For me this stuff has solved every problem except sexual dysfunction.

And buy a Wolff extra power mag spring. Can the op experiment by replacing the mag follower with a newer design from a more recent pistol? This may or may not work.
.

[JonInWA]

Sigh. I ran a P225 for a significant period from about 1992 to about 2006 or so. The ergos of the gun are exquisite, and it's a joy to carry. Triggerpull can be nicely massaged as well, but only so far due to the action geometry.

However-and this is a big however-there is a huge problem with it, and it has to do with the magazines. They're single stack, 8 rounds, and configured to be flush with the butt of the gun when loaded. When fully loaded, there is constant pressure against the feed lips, which over time, and, in my experience, relatively short time, began to microscopically spread.

Operational problems manifest themselves when performing a reload. With your first magazine, which is administratively loaded and chambered (and it doesn't matter if it's loaded, round chambered, and then topped off { so you're 8+1), or run with a round in the chamber and 7 in the magazine, for 7+1) problems aren't encountered. Where the problems occur is when you're at slidelock, and reload a next magazine, and try to go into battery; the top round tends to nosedive and stumble at the feedramp.

With the senior gunsmith a SIG at the time, the late Mike Guarnieri, we literally worked for years, repeated times to resolve this issue. My P225 was obtained BNIB-I was the original owner-and we experimented with multiple magazines-mine, brand new ones, etc. All magazines were SIG OEM, again with me as the original owner.

Ultimately and after much work and time personally expended on my personal P225 and magazines, Mike deferred to an H.P. White Lab study, which established that the pressure weight each cartridge placed on the feed lips were geometric, not progressive, and that the only effective solution was to download magazines by 1-2 rounds. The magazine in the gun, however, could be at 8 rounds, as the problem manifested itself only during initial chambering of a reload magazine (and it didn't matter if the reload was initiated by utilizing the slide release, or tug/release the slide, or overhand tug/release the slide).

We hypothesized that the problems didn't occur during the normal firing cycle do to the speed and mass of the slide reciprocation during the operating sequence after firing; the slide's mass and speed overpowered/overcame the stumbling point.

At the time, I owned copied of all of the pistols that succeeded in the 1970 German Police trials, The P225, a HK P7 PSP, and a Walther P5. All of them were superb pistols, all of them with single-stack 8 round magazines. The HK and Walther magazines were more extensively engineered (and significantly more expensive), but both the P5 and P7 were noted for impeccable operational performance.

I held on to the P225 the longest, hoping that Mike could resolve the issue. The P5 and P7 were superbly engineered, but the P7 had a very unique manual of arms, and heated up very quickly, and the P5 had a hitch in the triggerpull near the break point, induced as the triggerpull physically raised the safety out of the way during the firing sequence.

Ultimately I sold all three (I probably should have held on to one of my P5s)(I also had a P5C, which was a kludge pistol, with a huge inherent material flaw, but that's another story-and the flaw was unique to the P5C, not the P5).

A P225/P6 is a great pistol, but not one that I felt trustworthy for duty or defensive carry unless the magazines were downloaded as discussed (I personally downloaded mine to 6 rounds). Ultimately, a Glock G19 just made more sense on multiple levels (weight, reliability, durability, weather imperviousness, magazines, cost). In the 2000, a moved from a preponderance of SIGs to Glocks, with no real regrets.

Another solution to the P225 conundrum was to move to the P239, which had a similar profile and single-stack magazine, but was the beneficiary of better engineering and magazines. The P239 never quite developed the cachet and exquisite ergonomics of the P225/P6, but it was operationally a better gun, and with multiple caliber options. Other successful similarly sized single stack 9mm pistols of the period were the Smith & Wesson 3913/3914 and Beretta 92 FS Type M, any an all of with were operationally superior to the P225/P6.

An unanswered question is, "How could the P225 do so well in the German trials and in extensive, multi-German State and federal agency issue without the problems cropping up?" The best answer we could come up with was the hypothesis that the German LEOs carried their issue pistols, but qualified (and possibly trained with) other P225 pistols/magazines dedicated for range/training use, preserving wear and tear on actual issue pistols, precluding the problems from appearing.

Best, Jon

[CSW]

Sigh. I ran a P225 for a significant period from about 1992 to about 2006 or so. The ergos of the gun are exquisite, and it's a joy to carry. Triggerpull can be nicely massaged as well, but only so far due to the action geometry.

However-and this is a big however-there is a huge problem with it, and it has to do with the magazines. They're single stack, 8 rounds, and configured to be flush with the butt of the gun when loaded. When fully loaded, there is constant pressure against the feed lips, which over time, and, in my experience, relatively short time, began to microscopically spread.

Operational problems manifest themselves when performing a reload. With your first magazine, which is administratively loaded and chambered (and it doesn't matter if it's loaded, round chambered, and then topped off { so you're 8+1), or run with a round in the chamber and 7 in the magazine, for 7+1) problems aren't encountered. Where the problems occur is when you're at slidelock, and reload a next magazine, and try to go into battery; the top round tends to nosedive and stumble at the feedramp.

With the senior gunsmith a SIG at the time, the late Mike Guarnieri, we literally worked for years, repeated times to resolve this issue. My P225 was obtained BNIB-I was the original owner-and we experimented with multiple magazines-mine, brand new ones, etc. All magazines were SIG OEM, again with me as the original owner.

Ultimately and after much work and time personally expended on my personal P225 and magazines, Mike deferred to an H.P. White Lab study, which established that the pressure weight each cartridge placed on the feed lips were geometric, not progressive, and that the only effective solution was to download magazines by 1-2 rounds. The magazine in the gun, however, could be at 8 rounds, as the problem manifested itself only during initial chambering of a reload magazine (and it didn't matter if the reload was initiated by utilizing the slide release, or tug/release the slide, or overhand tug/release the slide).

We hypothesized that the problems didn't occur during the normal firing cycle do to the speed and mass of the slide reciprocation during the operating sequence after firing; the slide's mass and speed overpowered/overcame the stumbling point.

At the time, I owned copied of all of the pistols that succeeded in the 1970 German Police trials, The P225, a HK P7 PSP, and a Walther P5. All of them were superb pistols, all of them with single-stack 8 round magazines. The HK and Walther magazines were more extensively engineered (and significantly more expensive), but both the P5 and P7 were noted for impeccable operational performance.

I held on to the P225 the longest, hoping that Mike could resolve the issue. The P5 and P7 were superbly engineered, but the P7 had a very unique manual of arms, and heated up very quickly, and the P5 had a hitch in the triggerpull near the break point, induced as the triggerpull physically raised the safety out of the way during the firing sequence.

Ultimately I sold all three (I probably should have held on to one of my P5s)(I also had a P5C, which was a kludge pistol, with a huge inherent material flaw, but that's another story-and the flaw was unique to the P5C, not the P5).

A P225/P6 is a great pistol, but not one that I felt trustworthy for duty or defensive carry unless the magazines were downloaded as discussed (I personally downloaded mine to 6 rounds). Ultimately, a Glock G19 just made more sense on multiple levels (weight, reliability, durability, weather imperviousness, magazines, cost). In the 2000, a moved from a preponderance of SIGs to Glocks, with no real regrets.

Another solution to the P225 conundrum was to move to the P239, which had a similar profile and single-stack magazine, but was the beneficiary of better engineering and magazines. The P239 never quite developed the cachet and exquisite ergonomics of the P225/P6, but it was operationally a better gun, and with multiple caliber options. Other successful similarly sized single stack 9mm pistols of the period were the Smith & Wesson 3913/3914 and Beretta 92 FS Type M, any an all of with were operationally superior to the P225/P6.

An unanswered question is, "How could the P225 do so well in the German trials and in extensive, multi-German State and federal agency issue without the problems cropping up?" The best answer we could come up with was the hypothesis that the German LEOs carried their issue pistols, but qualified (and possibly trained with) other P225 pistols/magazines dedicated for range/training use, preserving wear and tear on actual issue pistols, precluding the problems from appearing.

Best, Jon

Outstanding post.

[LockedBreech]

Was worried this was the P6 I sold to a P-F member back in the day, but you said you got it from your dad, phew.

I hope you're able to get 'er runnin.

[CSW]

Was worried this was the P6 I sold to a P-F member back in the day, but you said you got it from your dad, phew.

I hope you're able to get 'er runnin.

I had bought it when they were first released in the US.
I gave it to my father to shoot and have fun with..... And forgot about it.
He gave it back to me about a year ago.
Replaced every spring and pin in the gun when I got it back.... Even mag springs.
As put, it'll run perfectly on ball, not so much on the hp I have

[revchuck38]

I wonder if it would run on the M1152 (?) flat-nose ball? I bought some out of curiosity and it went ~1240 fps from my PX4. If I had to run ball, that'd be my choice.

[CSW]

I wonder if it would run on the M1152 (?) flat-nose ball? I bought some out of curiosity and it went ~1240 fps from my PX4. If I had to run ball, that'd be my choice.
Years ago when living in NJ, I had some of that Federal EFMJ.

That fed if I remember correctly.
I'm gonna have to buy a few different types of hp and try it.
And yes, as far as the feed ramp goes, I had polished it to a mirror finish with Mas polish and a felt dremel wheel.

[JonInWA]

I normally ran Federal 9 BP 9mm standard pressure 115 gr in mine, but also Cor-Bon 115 gr +P as I recall. A more pointed bullet and/or a 124 gr or 147 gr might resolve things, but I'm skeptical. What was really needed in my opinion would have ben an extended tube magazine and different spring to resolve the overpressure on the feed lips, or a better engineered magazine. Apparently the issues were addressed and successfully surmounted with the P239, but the results apparently weren't transferrable to the P225/P6. P225/P6 and P239 magazines ARE NOT interchangeable.

Best, Jon

[CSW]

I've held the 239;
Nice gun, but not the feel of the 225/P6.

[JonInWA]

I've held the 239;
Nice gun, but not the feel of the 225/P6.

Agreed. It's quite good, just lacking the exquisite ergos of the P225....But a far better choice for "real world" actual use for that platform niche.

Arguably the best niche choices would be a Walther P5, Beretta 92D FS Type M, or a Smith & Wesson 3913/3914 (especially the Ladysmith variants, with the more streamlined dust cover).


Best, Jon

[Jim Watson]

SIG brought out the P225a1 which is an entirely different gun.

I think you could have grips of original P6 shape inletted to the P235 frame and have the best of both worlds in single stack DA-SA.

[JonInWA]

SIG brought out the P225a1 which is an entirely different gun.

I think you could have grips of original P6 shape inletted to the P235 frame and have the best of both worlds in single stack DA-SA.

In that niche, at the price points the guns that we're discussing are at, I think I'd rather just get a good Walther P5 and a set of Hogue rubber or Nill walnut grips and 5 magazines and a decent holster and call things good.

Best, Jon

[P30]

An unanswered question is, "How could the P225 do so well in the German trials and in extensive, multi-German State and federal agency issue without the problems cropping up?" The best answer we could come up with was the hypothesis that the German LEOs carried their issue pistols, but qualified (and possibly trained with) other P225 pistols/magazines dedicated for range/training use, preserving wear and tear on actual issue pistols, precluding the problems from appearing.
Strange. A good former school-friend of mine is police officer in Germany (North-Rhine Westphalia) since more than 20 years. A few years ago at a reunion meeting, we talked about guns. I know, he had carried the P6 on duty for more than 10 years. And as I know him from the past, he likes to train shooting. Since about 2006, he was issued the Walther P99. He told me, he liked the P6 more. Sounds to me like he had no problems with the P6. Also I don't remember reading about P6 problems with the police here in Germany.

Don't know for sure if he trained with different magazines than the ones he carried in his pistol (but I don't think so). Will ask him at the next reunion meeting. :) What I already know is that hollow-point bullets were forbidden for a long time here. I assume, he carried only round-nose bullets in his P6.

[JonInWA]

Strange. A good school-friend of mine is police officer in Germany (North-Rhine Westphalia) since more than 20 years. A few years ago at a reunion meeting, we talked about guns. I know, he had carried the P6 on duty for more than 10 years. And as I know him from the past, he likes to train shooting. Since about 2006, he was issued the Walther P99. He told me, he liked the P6 more. Sounds to me like he had no problems with the P6. Also I don't remember reading about P6 problems with the police here in Germany.

Ask him how he trained, and with what weapons did he train with (individual issue or organizational/range provided. Ask specific questions about magazines-did he train with individual issue magazines or organizationally provided one for the training. Ask about magazine rotation policies and practices.

The issues with the P225/P6 have been pretty well discussed, at least in the US over the years.

Best, Jon

[TheNewbie]

Do you think a better designed mag is possible specifically for the P225/P6? One that would eliminate the fed lip issue.

[P30]

The issues with the P225/P6 have been pretty well discussed, at least in the US over the years.
So you assume, if he ever had to use his trusty "Excalibur" to defend his life, it would likely have let him down? And this would apply for every German police officer with a P6? These were more than 100,000 (https://www-wikiwand-com.translate.goog/de/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp#/Polizeivollzugsdienst) police officers.

"Das wäre ja ein dicker Hund!" Literally translated: Now that would be a fat dog! Do you also say so in English? :D Means in German: That would be a huge thing!

[Jim Watson]

I first read M. Ayoob on the spreading lips of the P6/225.

Which is why I thought of a P225 grip shape to fit the P239 (not P235, oops).

My P225 is relegated to House Gun and does not see enough use to be afflicted.

I think the P-guns pretty much peaked out with the P228.

[MattyD380]

With a fully loaded mag, I feel like all my single stack 9mms "nose dive" to some degree (except my Makarov). At max spring pressure, the bullets just seem to want to nose down, whereas they feed more "straight-ly" under less spring pressure.

With my P5, you can literally see where rounds hit the feed ramp at different angles. The first 2-3 rounds in the mag will hit on that lower wear-point...

91661

...the rest of the rounds will hit progressively above that, until the last round or two will feed almost straight into the chamber. But... it works. My P5 seems to feed everything, even with that janky-looking ramp. It's such a fantastic shooter, too.

From what I can tell, the P6 feeds exactly the same way; there's just no record of the impact pattern, because the ramp is steel. So did my Kahr K9. So did my Sig P230s (.380s). I just kinda assumed that was the "nature" of single stack 9s and they were engineered to function that way.

I did, however, have the slide-lock failure in a P6, as JoninWA described. But... only when chambering from slide lock (never while shooting)... and only when using purely moly grease on the slide rails. I just attributed that issue to the more viscous lube slowing the slide down. Never happened when using just oil... even from slide lock, with old springs and old mags.

I will also say my P239s seem to nosedive less than other single stack 9s.

[CSW]

I first read M. Ayoob on the spreading lips of the P6/225.

Which is why I thought of a P225 grip shape to fit the P239 (not P235, oops).

My P225 is relegated to House Gun and does not see enough use to be afflicted.

I think the P-guns pretty much peaked out with the P228.

I have a 228 as well. Always liked the single stack grip better.

[LtDave]

We issued 9BP and 9BPLE for at least a decade. New designs are better, but I wouldn't lose sleep if I had to carry either of those now.

The sleeper Federal load IMHO is the XM9001 which was allegedly loaded for the RCMP. It is not marked +P, but velocity is midway between 9BP and 9BPLE with what appears to be the same bullet. It was available a few years ago and has shot extremely well for me in multiple guns. I bought a bunch of it. If you can find some, it is worth a look.

[P30]

One more relevant thing came to my mind: Police here in Germany now mainly uses RUAG Action ammo.

How version 4 looks:
91662
ruag.com/.../9x19_Deformation_Ammunition_en_low.pdf (https://www.ruag.com/system/files/media_document/2017-01/9x19_Deformation_Ammunition_en_low.pdf)

I'm quite sure, when they switched from full-metall jackets to hollow-points, the hollow-points looked already like in the picture, i.e. they had a round-nose (namely the plastic tip). I'm not sure, when they switched. But maybe the round-nose hollow-point design was chosen in order to make the P6 feed reliably. The P6 was once the most frequent police pistol here in Germany. I only don't know yet, if it still was when they switched to hollow-points.

PS:
Just found this article (https://www.cilip.de/2000/02/09/neue-munition-fuer-die-polizei-eine-von-schein-sachzwaengen-dominierte-diskussion1/). It says (machine translated):


The Conference of Interior Ministers (IMK) therefore decided in June 1999 to equip the police as a whole with a new deformation ammunition to be developed.

Searched more and found another relevant article (https://www.gdp.de/gdp/gdp.nsf/id/dp0601/$file/0106_07.pdf) from 6/2001 saying:


Since the beginning of the year, the Action 4 cartridge from Dynamit Nobel has been undergoing the prescribed certification procedure at the responsible firing office in Ulm, which has now been completed.
[...]
Although the certification process already includes a function test of 200 shots in the service weapons introduced by the police, the endurance test provides for a load of 5,000 shots in the service weapons. The following weapon models are used for this test: Walther P 5, SIG Sauer P 6, Heckler & Koch P 7, Heckler & Koch P 10, Glock P 9 M and the MP 5 submachine gun.

So since 2001, "Action 4" ammo is certified as Police ammo in Germany. In 2001, the P6 was still used big time in Germany as police pistol. So the P6 feeds "Action 4" fine, otherwise this ammo would not have been certified as police ammo in 2001. BTW: I know that the author of the second article, Wolfgang Dicke, also introduced HK's LEM trigger system to German police. He worked for the police and was an important dude concerning the selection of German police pistols at that time.

[JonInWA]

So you assume, if he ever had to use his trusty "Excalibur" to defend his life, it would likely have let him down? And this would apply for every German police officer with a P6? These were more than 100,000 (https://www-wikiwand-com.translate.goog/de/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp#/Polizeivollzugsdienst) police officers.

"Das wäre ja ein dicker Hund!" Literally translated: Now that would be a fat dog! Do you also say so in English? :D Means in German: That would be a huge thing!

P30, you cited an anecdotal friend using a P6. I asked you some specific questions that might provide some clarification; hopefully you can query him regarding them.

I'll respectfully suggest that you carefully re-read my posts on this thread. The problems I encountered with my P225 occurred during reloads from slidelock. If a P225/P6 carrying LEO had to rely on his pistol, he would likely have 8 or 9 shots at his (or her) disposal before emptying the initial administratively loaded magazine and getting to slidelock/emergency reload-which is specifically where the problems occurred, in the documented case of myself and others cited. I suggested that the slide velocity and mass preclude operational issues during "normal" slide reciprocation during the firing sequence.

I'll take my fat dog/wurst with Gray Poupon and sauerkraut, please....

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

And today, an HK P30L LEM is a pistol that I'm qualified on and use for duty, competition (IDPA/ASI) and EDC/home defense. I consider it to have equal ergos with the P225 and a far superior operating system, trigger (albeit one with an acquired taste), superior (bombproof) magazines, greater capacity, multiple caliber options, and superior weather/environmental imperviousness.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

I'll also suggest that the Action 4 testing might have been done in a relatively condensed test period, before pressure on the feed lips over time could have occurred and affected the P225/P6 guns tested. In other words, the testing might not have been dispositive, but only essentially covering brand-new guns and magazines at the point of issue, not after accumulation of time and use over time.

For what it's worth, the issues I experienced were predominantly, if not exclusively with 115 gr ball ammunition; in those days I was probably shooting mostly Winchester and Blazer 9mm cartridges. I don't recall them occurring with any of my carry cartridges, but back in the day I would only fire a several magazines of carry ammunition a year, and mostly would use commercial factory ball for practice and competition use, which is where most of my P225 use was.

Best, Jon

[Borderland]

And today, an HK P30L LEM is a pistol that I'm qualified on and use for duty, competition (IDPA/ASI) and EDC/home defense. I consider it to have equal ergos with the P225 and a far superior operating system, trigger (albeit one with an acquired taste), superior (bombproof) magazines, greater capacity, multiple caliber options, and superior weather/environmental imperviousness.

Best, Jon

I much prefer my P-30 over any Sig I've owned. I won't sell any P series Sigs anymore though because people are starting to realize they really are exceptional tools. One of these days people are going to wonder why so many of those wonderful pistols were discontinued.

[TheNewbie]

With a fully loaded mag, I feel like all my single stack 9mms "nose dive" to some degree (except my Makarov). At max spring pressure, the bullets just seem to want to nose down, whereas they feed more "straight-ly" under less spring pressure.

With my P5, you can literally see where rounds hit the feed ramp at different angles. The first 2-3 rounds in the mag will hit on that lower wear-point...

91661

...the rest of the rounds will hit progressively above that, until the last round or two will feed almost straight into the chamber. But... it works. My P5 seems to feed everything, even with that janky-looking ramp. It's such a fantastic shooter, too.

From what I can tell, the P6 feeds exactly the same way; there's just no record of the impact pattern, because the ramp is steel. So did my Kahr K9. So did my Sig P230s (.380s). I just kinda assumed that was the "nature" of single stack 9s and they were engineered to function that way.

I did, however, have the slide-lock failure in a P6, as JoninWA described. But... only when chambering from slide lock (never while shooting)... and only when using purely moly grease on the slide rails. I just attributed that issue to the more viscous lube slowing the slide down. Never happened when using just oil... even from slide lock, with old springs and old mags.

I will also say my P239s seem to nosedive less than other single stack 9s.




The P239 is known to be highly reliable, correct?

[MattyD380]

The P239 is known to be highly reliable, correct?

I would say it is. That seems to be the consensus based on what I’ve gleaned over the years as an internet gun nerd. Mine have all been very reliable. I have 2 9mms and one in .357 Sig. It was used by various police agencies and federal agencies… including the secret service and homeland security, I believe.

Here’s my take on it, if you’re curious: https://hipstertactical.com/blog/sig-p239-review-combat-carry

[fatdog]

The P239 is known to be highly reliable, correct?

yes, I edc'ed one for about 5-6 years, they had the reputation of being as good as the full size guns, P228, 226, 220, reliable and accurate

[JonInWA]

I would say it is. That seems to be the consensus based on what I’ve gleaned over the years as an internet gun nerd. Mine have all been very reliable. I have 2 9mms and one in .357 Sig. It was used by various police agencies and federal agencies… including the secret service and homeland security, I believe.

Here’s my take on it, if you’re curious: https://hipstertactical.com/blog/sig-p239-review-combat-carry

Matty, that's an excellent review of the P239. Actually, ALL of your reviews on that site are well worth a read. Thanks for the link/rabbit hole....

Best, Jon

[MattyD380]

Matty, that's an excellent review of the P239. Actually, ALL of your reviews on that site are well worth a read. Thanks for the link/rabbit hole....

Best, Jon

Thanks, Jon. I really appreciate that. Means a lot coming from a knowledgeable, experienced person like you. Just my perspectives/opinions (hopefully) expressed in an entertaining way.

Thanks for checking it out!

[revolvergeek]

The only jhp round I recall that it fed before the barrel swap was Federal 9BP 115gr.

This was going to be my recommendation. The 9BP/BPLE and the old Remington 115 jhp would often feed in guns that generally just liked ball. I shot MANY a round of the old Remington 115 JHP +P in an old Hi Power that was unmodified other than a heavy recoil spring.