410 defensive ammo ballistics test

[jetfire]

The advantage of having a long editorial leash is that I can kind of do what I want some times. For example, I have been curious about the idea of a Mossberg Shockwave with some of the interesting 410 defensive ammo that's out there. So I got two traditional 000 buck loads, a 3 inch 5 pellet from Remington, and a 2.5 inch 3 pellet from Winchester. I also got two of the novelty 410 loads, the Hornady Critical Defense, and a Winchester PDX1 Defender 3 inch.

Here's the 40 minute video that details the test protocol etc; it's timestamped in the description so you can skip around if you want.


https://youtu.be/vENlKiL0tA0

If you'd rather read than watch, the 410 buckshot (http://https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/410-buckshot-ballistic-test/) article also contains all my thoughts from the video but in written form.

Brief thought: based on this, as well as conversations with actual ballistic experts, I would not feel underarmed if I had to use the Shockwave loaded with the Remington 5 pellet in a defensive encounter. In fact, it kind of seems like a modern incarnation of the "under the bar" gun of yesteryear.

Also, caveat to everything: I'm not a scientist, I'm just a guy who pulls triggers and makes observations.

[DDTSGM]

If you'd rather read than watch, the 410 buckshot (http://https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/410-buckshot-ballistic-test/) article also contains all my thoughts from the video but in written form.

Link didn't work for me, but this did:

https://www.tactical-life.com/gear/410-buckshot-ballistic-test/

[Bergeron]

Not the results that I would have expected, that's interesting.

I wonder what that Shockwave would be like done up all "cheek gun" style, and with that laser you mentioned. I really, really wonder what it would all be like out of a SBS Saiga-410, but I've already got waaaay to many projects to go around wondering about more.

Thanks!

PS- shout to your 10mm article, and for actually discussing a recreational Centimeter load that isn't pushing lots of power. People can whine "40 Short & Weak" all they want, but stuff like that AE load are what actually makes it possible to shoot a lot.

[diananike]

The 410 shockwave has very mild recoil compared to my 12 gauge model.
It would be very easy to cheek even without a recoil strap (which is really a necessity on 12 gauge models)
You definitely would want a raised optic though. I can’t get my face down low enough to use the bead properly and it shoots high to begin with without a raised bead.

[jetfire]

The 410 shockwave has very mild recoil compared to my 12 gauge model.
It would be very easy to cheek even without a recoil strap (which is really a necessity on 12 gauge models)
You definitely would want a raised optic though. I can’t get my face down low enough to use the bead properly and it shoots high to begin with without a raised bead.

Yeah, if I decide to keep this gun and really suss this idea out, I'd definitely want to work on the cheek weld method. Either that or get a laser saddle and one-hand it everywhere

[jh9]

Can you expound a bit on what "wasn’t excessive" in terms of recoil means for the 3" load? Comparable to a .38 special out of a steel frame gun? .357 level recoil out of a 4" steel 686? 9mm Beretta 92?

For "basically no felt recoil" for the 2.5" Winchester... something like a .22 pistol?

Wondering how this would work for recoil-averse shooters, people with compromised grip due to nerve damage, arthritis, etc. A corollary to the Old Man Gun, maybe the Old Man Gauge. I think 03RN has a shockwave with some sort of RDS. Dunno what mount and if it would work with this. If so it starts to sound like an interesting project. I wonder where the 5 pellets of #000 falls on the terminal effectiveness continuum.

[03RN]

I have the scalarworks mount. I'm not sure if the 410 receiver is compatible.
91523

https://youtu.be/UevW_PJ3iHs

[diananike]

Looking at the hole patterns in my 410 it seems to match the 12 gauge mount.
I haven’t tried one yet as I’m waiting for a good deal on a quality optic.

[JCN]

I really like my 20 gauge Shockwave with a laser.

[jetfire]

Can you expound a bit on what "wasn’t excessive" in terms of recoil means for the 3" load? Comparable to a .38 special out of a steel frame gun? .357 level recoil out of a 4" steel 686? 9mm Beretta 92?

For "basically no felt recoil" for the 2.5" Winchester... something like a .22 pistol?

Wondering how this would work for recoil-averse shooters, people with compromised grip due to nerve damage, arthritis, etc. A corollary to the Old Man Gun, maybe the Old Man Gauge. I think 03RN has a shockwave with some sort of RDS. Dunno what mount and if it would work with this. If so it starts to sound like an interesting project. I wonder where the 5 pellets of #000 falls on the terminal effectiveness continuum.

Recoil is hard to quantify since everyone experiences it differently, but when stretching the gun with the 2.5 inch loads, my experience with the felt recoil was such that I'd be happy to hand the gun to 95 pound person with minimal upper body strength.

The 3 inch shells required me to exercise a bit better technique re: stretching the gun but weren't any worse recoil wise than say, a spicy 10mm out of a GP100.

[TCinVA]

Buckshot is all about physics.

If you can get multiple pellets that are big enough on target in a small enough pattern, the synergistic effect of multiple projectiles attacking the same area of tissue applies and it will likely be extremely effective.

.410 has had a dismal record as a defensive tool primarily because the loads for it have traditionally sucked. Small, light buckshot pellets that shot into wide patterns were the norm and resulted in plenty of sub-optimal performance when people used it for real. Holloway's Raiders has a particularly amusing anecdote about a shop owner who used a .410 to shoot an armed robber and was rather unimpressed with the result.

The 3" Remington load is moving enough payload fast enough to do some work assuming it patterns well in whatever gun you're using.

The consequence of pushing enough payload fast enough is going to be recoil, regardless of what size the barrel is. An ounce at 1,300 FPS is an ounce at 1,300 FPS regardless of how big the barrel is. The 5 pellet Remington load is 80% of the weight of a FFC 8 pellet load moving at pretty much the same velocity...only doing so in a much lighter gun. That will have consequences.

It can certainly be workable for home defense...but most would be much better served by a stocked shotgun that has some sort of useful sighting system in terms of delivering the payload where it's needed.

[diananike]

Other good choices that I’ve found are the other 5 pellet 000 buckshot from other manufacturers.
Herters, Winchester and my favourite Federal.
The Federal load has copper plated pellets which should help with patterns at longer distance as there would be less deformation on firing.
They all pattern extremely tight at 10yds which is the furthest I’ve patterned them. Way tighter then a 12 gauge non flitecontrol loading.
The 5 pellets in a row just seem to throw them all in the same direction.
I’ll see if I can dig up some pictures of the patterns.

[diananike]

Buckshot is all about physics.

The 3" Remington load is moving enough payload fast enough to do some work assuming it patterns well in whatever gun you're using.

The consequence of pushing enough payload fast enough is going to be recoil, regardless of what size the barrel is. An ounce at 1,300 FPS is an ounce at 1,300 FPS regardless of how big the barrel is. The 5 pellet Remington load is 80% of the weight of a FFC 8 pellet load moving at pretty much the same velocity...only doing so in a much lighter gun. That will have consequences.

It can certainly be workable for home defense...but most would be much better served by a stocked shotgun that has some sort of useful sighting system in terms of delivering the payload where it's needed.

I believe the .410 5 pellet 000 buckshot loads are listed at around 1100 fps from a shotgun barrel. They certainly don’t seem to kick near as hard as even a light 12 gauge trap load out of the 12 gauge model.