Massad Ayoob looks at Bill Wilson's collection of Colt Pythons [Archive]

Stephanie B

07-15-2022, 05:21 AM

Bill discusses Colts going out of time, saying that trigger overtravel causes it. He has trigger stop screws installed on his Pythons, but I can’t detect any overtravel on my 2020 model.

I was a bit confused by that. The trigger overtravel is what causes the 'bank lockup" of a Colt, which they praised, but the trigger stop keeps it from doing that.

I thought that Colt deliberately designed the gun to do what it did. The hand was considered to be a "wear part", to be replaced every so often. But since gunsmiths who can work on a Colt are getting rather thin on the ground, I don't know if it's advisable to run one hard.

Stephanie B

07-15-2022, 05:26 AM

I am grateful for them for giving me a reason not to buy a new Python.

If Kensight comes through with their rear sight, you'll be back in trouble ;-)

Then again, so will I.

Yeah. Kind of gripes me, a little, that one can spend 1.5 Boating Units to buy a gun and then have to sink some more into it to get it to be decent, but what the hell, that's where the 1911 guys live.

It's dumb of me. I can cover a 6" Python with my Model 27 and a 4" with my 686, so I don't need a Python. But the want is still there.

fatdog

07-15-2022, 05:56 AM

I have been very pleased to hear the good results owners of the new Pythons are getting. I have convinced myself not to buy one by having my K, L, N frame guns getting tuned up by Nelson Ford and telling myself that is better money spent than owning the snake, but I suspect at some point in a year or two after all the Smiths are running perfectly, I will succumb and get one for the simple beauty of the thing.

willie

07-15-2022, 07:23 AM

About the Python's bank lockup. If chamber and forcing cone are not properly aligned when this lock up occurs, then the hand dead heading against the ratchet assures that MIS-alignment will be the same for each of the cylinder's 6 chambers.

FrankB

07-15-2022, 07:55 AM

Stephanie B

Educated Guess: If lockup only require 90% of the trigger’s travel, the extra 10% could easily start distorting the fitment of the parts involved in the process. Over torquing a screw would be a good analogy, assuming my guess is correct. ;)

fatdog

I really didn’t need a Python, but it was there. My wife was with me, and I had spent the past year talking about the Python. I have to be very careful about suggesting a gun purchase to her.

Coal Train

07-15-2022, 12:59 PM

Yeah. Kind of gripes me, a little, that one can spend 1.5 Boating Units to buy a gun and then have to sink some more into it to get it to be decent, but what the hell, that's where the 1911 guys live.

It's dumb of me. I can cover a 6" Python with my Model 27 and a 4" with my 686, so I don't need a Python. But the want is still there.
My opinion is worth what you paid for it but I prefer my King Cobra 3” to my 4” Python. It “feels” better, has a better trigger, and is noticeably less expensive. Just wish the sights were better but they are workable. And of course fix the “dent” in the trigger guard.

FrankB

07-15-2022, 02:20 PM

My opinion is worth what you paid for it but I prefer my King Cobra 3” to my 4” Python. It “feels” better, has a better trigger, and is noticeably less expensive. Just wish the sights were better but they are workable. And of course fix the “dent” in the trigger guard.

My 2” and 3” King Cobras certainly have a different trigger feel compared to the Python. I’m not real trigger picky with revolvers, so it comes down to which is easier to carry. The KC’s win that battle easily, but I’m carrying my 2.5” S&W 686+ this week. The Colt’s and S&W’s triggers couldn’t be more different, and I’d have to say the S&W’s snap in both directions is “better” IMO. I’m MUCH more accurate with the 686+, especially with magnum loads. The 4.25” Python and my 4” 686+ are equally accurate.

Crazy Dane

07-15-2022, 08:00 PM

Bill discusses Colts going out of time, saying that trigger overtravel causes it. He has trigger stop screws installed on his Pythons, but I can’t detect any overtravel on my 2020 model.

Both of mine do not exhibit any overtravel. Ther have been several people (that appear to have ties with the mothership) over on the Colt forum confirm that they fixed that in the 2020 model.

The Harrison sight set seems to be a big improvement but I am holding out to see what Kensight can offer. I have also been diligently working to make my 3-inch snake more like my Willy Clapp GP.

Salamander

07-15-2022, 10:08 PM

My 2” and 3” King Cobras certainly have a different trigger feel compared to the Python. I’m not real trigger picky with revolvers, so it comes down to which is easier to carry. The KC’s win that battle easily...

Agree, the KC and Python triggers are a little different. Although not nearly as different as a Colt is from anything else, most of my pre-2019 revolver experience was S&W and it took a few trips to the range to acclimate to the KC.

The two Colts fill different niches. The KC is a functional carry revolver, the Python is a work of industrial art. I carry the KC and it points very naturally for me, is light and easy to conceal, the trigger is well above average, the sights would be better if my eyes were 20 years younger but with a bit of white paint as an outline they're good enough. Almost a thousand rounds in it's been 100% reliable, and I'm probably taking it on a cross-country trip soon.

The Python is a range gun for me. I fully agree that the rear sights are the one thing holding back an otherwise excellent design and have said it here before. Could Colt have done better? Yes. Should they have gotten it right on a $1,500 revolver? Yes. Have I replaced the OEM sights on most of my semi-autos? Yes. It's annoying, but the more Pythons are sold the more incentive there is for folks to build better sights.

Is the Python worth almost twice as much? Each individual needs to answer that for themselves. Personally I'm happy owning both a KC and a Python.

Malamute

07-15-2022, 10:16 PM

I was a bit confused by that. The trigger overtravel is what causes the 'bank lockup" of a Colt, which they praised, but the trigger stop keeps it from doing that.

I thought that Colt deliberately designed the gun to do what it did. The hand was considered to be a "wear part", to be replaced every so often. But since gunsmiths who can work on a Colt are getting rather thin on the ground, I don't know if it's advisable to run one hard.

From what Mr Wilson said, it was desirable to have some perceptible free movement of the cylinder to alleviate the wear on the hand. Colt may well have designed it to work under tension, but it may not be optimal for longevity. It sounds like Mr Wilson and whoever did the action work figured that point out, if they last as long as anything else when set up with the trigger stop, as he mentioned. It would appear to be a proper fitment issue with it holding in good alignment, but not under actual tension at the moment of firing. All of this gives me some hope for messing with Colts more. Id love to one day have one of the new Pythons, but I REALLY dont care for stainless guns, certainly not in the price range they represent. I cant imagine paying that much for a gun that Id not be able to simply enjoy looking at and handling it, dry fire and whatever. Im quite unable to do that with stainless guns. If the older ones can be made to last, Id far prefer a blued one.

Perhaps one day.

FrankB

07-15-2022, 10:31 PM

91568

I went to bed, and decided to compare triggers on my KC, Python, 686+, and an “Ultra Rare” M60 no dash. The Python’s trigger pull is extremely consistent all the way back. The KC is consistent as well, but I do reach a wall just before it breaks. The Smiths seem to let off half way through the trigger stroke, and I like that. The Smiths have a heavier trigger pull, but most of that weight is in the first 50% of its travel, and it certainly doesn’t stack at the end. They’re all nice, but if I were to just keep one, it would be a 686.

Here’s something I’ve been meaning to try for a while. Using my Lyman digital trigger gauge, I assist in pulling the trigger back halfway on the Python, and the 686+. Once I’m at the halfway point, only the trigger gauge is pulling the trigger. Both brands pull roughly 8lbs 10 Oz after the halfway point. Using the trigger gauge like a person without gun OCD, the Python quickly moves up 8lbs at the halfway point, then 9lbs 3oz. The 686+ quickly moves up to 11lbs 13 Oz, but let’s off very quickly after the halfway point.

Yvonne just joined the testing, and her finger said the Python rules, the 686 is definitely heavier, and the KC has too much trigger travel. I would agree with the KC assessment. Yvonne doesn’t care about the minutia, and just wants to shoot fast!

https://youtu.be/J66CnWD6QpE

The discussion of price comes up at 9 minutes, and the Colt rep said the last 2002 Python was $1,082. He then said the new Python is a price reduction.

jh9

07-16-2022, 08:16 AM

All of this gives me some hope for messing with Colts more. I

You may be in luck. It looks like Numrich has expanded their "new reproduction" hands to include the Python. So you can get parts (or, well, that part, ratchets are perpetually out of stock). I remember they started doing D-frames some years ago. I didn't know they were doing E- and I-frames as well.

Maybe a used-but-not-abused old .38 Army Special or .357 Trooper is in the cards after all...

Of course the Kuhnhausen manual shows that factory installed hands had 8 different inspection surfaces and devotes 5 full pages to describing them (compare to 2 pages for a Smith). I would consider cheating and have one of the handful of people still taking Colt work fit the trigger stop and new hand then keep the original as a spare.

awp_101

07-16-2022, 09:06 AM

Stephanie B

07-16-2022, 09:21 AM

Anyhoo, if the Canadians do ban new handguns, maybe Colt can trim the barrel to a proper 4" tube.

Malamute

07-16-2022, 04:08 PM

You may be in luck. It looks like Numrich has expanded their "new reproduction" hands to include the Python. So you can get parts (or, well, that part, ratchets are perpetually out of stock). I remember they started doing D-frames some years ago. I didn't know they were doing E- and I-frames as well.

Maybe a used-but-not-abused old .38 Army Special or .357 Trooper is in the cards after all...

Of course the Kuhnhausen manual shows that factory installed hands had 8 different inspection surfaces and devotes 5 full pages to describing them (compare to 2 pages for a Smith). I would consider cheating and have one of the handful of people still taking Colt work fit the trigger stop and new hand then keep the original as a spare.

Jack First has had new hands available in both sizes for some time, I only recently realized Numrich does as well.

The Colt forum has a good tutorial in stretching hands, its part of what got me over the hump of "Colts are too scary and mysterious to work on".

Its also been in the back of my mind that the lower tooth can be micro welded and built up and dressed back to fit. It was pointed out some time ago in another discussion that it may not be as hard as the original part, my only response is that we dont know for sure, perhaps not, but at least Id still be shooting instead of wishing I could or afraid to do anything. If as an example a factory spec hand lasts 10,000 rds, and a welded hand lasted half that, oh well, drive on and keep shooting, repeat as needed.

I doubt Ill live long enough and shoot enough rounds through any of them to actually wear out the major components, so what if the the small bits need some work now and then and I can manage to keep it going. Ive seen a lot of older Colts that were out of time and had been apparently abandoned as a functional entity. Im a fixer, and after getting past the mentioned common hesitation to work on Colts, if theres a way to get something running, why not? Im kicking myself for not grabbing the out of time 2" Diamondback 38 I saw at a pawn shop in the 90s for a very reasonable price.

FrankB

07-16-2022, 05:02 PM

Malamute

07-16-2022, 05:30 PM

When I bought a beautiful 1952-ish Colt Detective Special, I made the mistake of researching Colt revolvers. “They go out of time quickly” was everywhere, followed by, “There’s no telling when they will”. After fretting over my perfectly timed DS, I decided sell it. What a mistake! I did ask if it was an easy fix, and the responses were a resounding “NO”.

I succumbed to the same legends in the past. This in no way means I think doing anything and everything to a Colt is simple, just that some things arent quite as complicated as generally made out to be. In the past (1970s-80s?)it seemed to be regarded as a big deal to remove the sideplate of a Smith, let alone actually take the parts out, and heaven forbid actually doing anything inside. That slowly became less intimidating over time, as did removing barrels and fitting other barrels. Yes, there exists the possibility that you may run into something you cant do or complete, but fear of starting is the biggest hurdle. For the most part swapping barrels hasnt presented any impossible barriers, if it did at some point, I know who to contact to finish the job or I can just fall back and put it back like it was.

Colts. Ive always admired them, but was afraid of the legends regarding fragility and working on them, parts, etc. I finally started researching a bit, found some info, and also realized there were in fact a few guys left that knew how to work on them if i came across a problem I couldnt resolve. Procured the 1980s Agent, and its instantly become the favorite pocket carry daily go everywhere gun. It only required the cylinder be replaced, which fixed the slightly excessive end shake. It worked as it was, but getting it right is nice. I gambled, bought parts, they dropped in and fit perfectly. Done. If it hadnt, Id already contacted Frank Glen and would send it to him, but that didnt end up being necessary.

Read this if interested in tinkering with Colt stuff, theres several threads about Colt work, stretching hands and refitting and timing bolts.

https://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-smithing.22/

As has been said in the past, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend".

Colts can present some unusual fitting issues compared to Smiths, but the master pistol ninja level expertise doesnt seem to apply to every single possible thing that may need to be done. At the very least, Im willing to learn about it and try before just throwing my hands up and saying its too hard and not touching it.

Stephanie B

07-17-2022, 07:28 PM

I have some dim memory of Dagga Boy mentioning that police armories used to have buckets of out-of-time Colts stashed in the back. So maybe there is some truth to the legend.

Malamute

07-17-2022, 08:00 PM

I have some dim memory of Dagga Boy mentioning that police armories used to have buckets of out-of-time Colts stashed in the back. So maybe there is some truth to the legend.

I dont doubt that its true that there were many out of time Colts, and I believe in general the timing doesnt hold up as issued as well as Smiths, my questioning of the legend is that they are far too complicated to possibly work on to even correct timing, as well as the legend that theres no parts and nobody knows how to work on them. Parts availability currently seems to be better than in the recent past, though we are seeing some of this same legend about Smith parts (hands, locking bolts) not being available, when its just not true.

It could also be that nobody was interested in fixing them if they got deals on other guns, but thats another tale entirely.

jtcarm

07-21-2022, 05:29 PM

I was a bit confused by that. The trigger overtravel is what causes the 'bank lockup" of a Colt, which they praised, but the trigger stop keeps it from doing that.

I thought that Colt deliberately designed the gun to do what it did. The hand was considered to be a "wear part", to be replaced every so often. But since gunsmiths who can work on a Colt are getting rather thin on the ground, I don't know if it's advisable to run one hard.

That’s always been my understanding, too.

I think it’s probably a lot worse with magnums due to the extra recoil pounding the hand.

I suspect you’re right about the hand being a wear part and probably accounts for the “buckets” of out-of-time Colts.

If you don’t replace your break pads when they wear down, you destroy some non-wear parts that are a lot harder to replace. Possibly the bucket guns didn’t make it to the armorer soon enough?

Outpost75 wrote an excellent piece on checking out police trade-in revolvers (remember those?) in which he said a Colt should have zero perceivable end-shake.

john c

07-21-2022, 06:25 PM

Outpost75 wrote an excellent piece on checking out police trade-in revolvers (remember those?) in which he said a Colt should have zero perceivable end-shake.

Do you have a link to that article?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Malamute

07-21-2022, 06:36 PM

I really didn’t need a Python, but it was there. My wife was with me, and I had spent the past year talking about the Python. I have to be very careful about suggesting a gun purchase to her.

There are worse problems to have than this..... :D

jtcarm

07-21-2022, 07:17 PM

Do you have a link to that article?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?353160-Revolver-Inspection-The-Right-Way-aka-Wheelgun-101&p=4272240#post4272240

MattyD380

07-22-2022, 08:09 PM

1965 Colt Trooper. Traded into it earlier this year.

9187491875

I know enough to know it's basically a Python from the barrel back (unlike the MKIIIs & MKVs). I also know enough to know it does not "carry up" when cocking the hammer slowly, on any of the cylinders. I assumed the "bank vault" lockup mitigated this: the cylinder snaps over into the locked position as soon as I touch the trigger. Cylinder stays locked up super tight as long as there's any pressure on the trigger. Though an earlier post suggested that, maybe, that's not a guarantee it's properly aligned?

Think it's worth getting it corrected/tuned up?

The cylinder bolt thingy (the thing you see under the cylinder) seems to have proper timing based on what I've read: the thing starts moving as soon as I start pulling the trigger and seems to lock into place, before the hammer falls.

I've shot the gun. Full .357s and .38s. Shoots fine, as far as I can tell. It's a cool piece of history. And I figure I need at least one solid magnum revolver in the stash. I actually put Python grips on it (Altamont). Looks pretty slick, to me.

Malamute

07-22-2022, 08:22 PM

1965 Colt Trooper. Traded into it earlier this year.

9187491875

I also know enough to know it does not "carry up" when cocking the hammer slowly, on any of the cylinders. I assumed the "bank vault" lockup mitigated this: the cylinder snaps over into the locked position as soon as I touch the trigger. Cylinder stays locked up super tight as long as there's any pressure on the trigger. Though an earlier post suggested that, maybe, that's not a guarantee it's properly aligned?

Think it's worth getting it corrected/tuned up?

.

You may want to look at the hand stretching thread on the Colt forum. Its relatively simple to do, though tedious.

I would prefer one of mine to be timed correctly. You may get away with it in average use, but if it gets dirty or a bit of lead wedged in somewhere it may cause enough drag to keep it from coming fully up into correct index one day and spit lead or bullet fragments.

Very nice pistol BTW.

FrankB

07-22-2022, 08:38 PM

1965 Colt Trooper. Traded into it earlier this year.

I know enough to know it's basically a Python from the barrel back (unlike the MKIIIs & MKVs). I also know enough to know it does not "carry up" when cocking the hammer slowly, on any of the cylinders. I assumed the "bank vault" lockup mitigated this: the cylinder snaps
I've shot the gun. Full .357s and .38s. Shoots fine, as far as I can tell. It's a cool piece of history. And I figure I need at least one solid magnum revolver in the stash. I actually put Python grips on it (Altamont). Looks pretty slick, to me.

If it’s not spitting lead/copper, or inaccurate, it should be good. What was that movie with Russell Crowe and Gene Hackman, in which Hackman’s character buys Crowe the cheapest piece of garbage to use in duels? Crowe wins, so…

MattyD380

07-22-2022, 09:16 PM

Cool. Thanks for the insights, guys. It's definitely got some patina, but it's still good shape overall.

There's a Smith in town that, apparently, works on/restores classic guns. Saw a few Lugers in various stages of disassembly in his shop. One of these days I may run by and see about getting a tune up. But... consensus seems to be... it ain't gonna blow up if I shoot it now and then.

Stephanie B

07-25-2022, 10:41 AM

1965 Colt Trooper. Traded into it earlier this year.

91874I know enough to know it's basically a Python from the barrel back (unlike the MKIIIs & MKVs). I also know enough to know it does not "carry up" when cocking the hammer slowly, on any of the cylinders. I assumed the "bank vault" lockup mitigated this: the cylinder snaps over into the locked position as soon as I touch the trigger. Cylinder stays locked up super tight as long as there's any pressure on the trigger. Though an earlier post suggested that, maybe, that's not a guarantee it's properly aligned?

Think it's worth getting it corrected/tuned up?

The cylinder bolt thingy (the thing you see under the cylinder) seems to have proper timing based on what I've read: the thing starts moving as soon as I start pulling the trigger and seems to lock into place, before the hammer falls.

I've shot the gun. Full .357s and .38s. Shoots fine, as far as I can tell. It's a cool piece of history. And I figure I need at least one solid magnum revolver in the stash. I actually put Python grips on it (Altamont). Looks pretty slick, to me.

I have one Colt DA revolver, a DS. Slow-cocking, it locks up just before the hammer is all the way back, with a little play. The "bank vault" lockup comes when the trigger is squeezed.

So, based on a sample size of one ;) I'd suggest that the timing is probably getting marginal. As long as it does lock up, I'd say shoot the sucker until you see signs that it's not locking up at all. Whether you attempt to remedy it yourself or send it off to a Colt gunsmith, that's a personal choice.

MattyD380

07-25-2022, 09:43 PM

I have one Colt DA revolver, a DS. Slow-cocking, it locks up just before the hammer is all the way back, with a little play. The "bank vault" lockup comes when the trigger is squeezed.

So, based on a sample size of one ;) I'd suggest that the timing is probably getting marginal. As long as it does lock up, I'd say shoot the sucker until you see signs that it's not locking up at all. Whether you attempt to remedy it yourself or send it off to a Colt gunsmith, that's a personal choice.

Thanks for the perspective, Stephanie. Yeah, I think mine is definitely marginal. But… 10-4 on the “shoot the sucker” advice. 😁

As far as getting inside this thing, it’s definitely beyond my comfort zone (or desire to move beyond my comfort zone) in terms of tinkering. I’ll probably take it to a Smith at some point.

I actually had a similar problem (carry up) with a model 66-1. I figured it was less of a problem with a Colt, given the bank vault feature. But… still would be nice to have a fully tuned specimen.

FrankB

07-25-2022, 10:00 PM

But… it would be nice to have a fully tuned specimen.

Ain’t that the truth!

jtcarm

07-28-2022, 08:51 AM

I have one Colt DA revolver, a DS. Slow-cocking, it locks up just before the hammer is all the way back, with a little play. The "bank vault" lockup comes when the trigger is squeezed.

So, based on a sample size of one ;) I'd suggest that the timing is probably getting marginal. As long as it does lock up, I'd say shoot the sucker until you see signs that it's not locking up at all. Whether you attempt to remedy it yourself or send it off to a Colt gunsmith, that's a personal choice.

My OM doesn’t quite make it.

I’m about to try stretching the hand.

BTW, I was advised over on the Pistol Smith forum that Frank Glen does excellent and reasonably-priced work on Colts.

FWIW, here’s the thread:

https://www.pistolsmith.com/threads/colt-om-not-carrying-up-completely.37857/#post-165923