Reload technique in idpa

[CraigS]

My wife will be shooting her 3rd match Saturday. Last month she was having trouble w/ reloads. Last week we practiced some and decided her grips were too thick and making it real hard to get to the mag release button w/ strong hand thumb. She had to move the gun around a lot. She has long fingers but we have discovered not real strong fingers or thumb. So we got new thinner grips and practiced again this AM. The grips definitely helped but not a 100% solution. So she tried hitting the mag release w/ her weak hand thumb. Ah ha, think we have something here. We talked some and figured it could be slower because her weak hand could be 1/2 way or more to the new mag if it were not used for the release. But we decided that if the mag release is now 100%, then the time possibly lost is going to be less than the time lost repositioning the gun, and especially the time lost when it doesn't immediately release. We are both old, me 74 and her 67, so I said that I doubt that we will be getting stronger, so best to change technique rather than expect to overcome a strength problem. What do you think? Good idea or??

[Jim Watson]

I have seen that done and while not as fast, if you gotta you gotta.

What gun?
There are grips with a DEEP scallop behind the magazine catch that might be better than just thin overall.

[Mas]

If her magazine release button is reversible, she can use her trigger finger to dump the mag and if anything be faster than the conventional technique. Also guarantees finger out of guard during reload.

[JCN]

My wife will be shooting her 3rd match Saturday. Last month she was having trouble w/ reloads. Last week we practiced some and decided her grips were too thick and making it real hard to get to the mag release button w/ strong hand thumb. She had to move the gun around a lot. She has long fingers but we have discovered not real strong fingers or thumb. So we got new thinner grips and practiced again this AM. The grips definitely helped but not a 100% solution. So she tried hitting the mag release w/ her weak hand thumb. Ah ha, think we have something here. We talked some and figured it could be slower because her weak hand could be 1/2 way or more to the new mag if it were not used for the release. But we decided that if the mag release is now 100%, then the time possibly lost is going to be less than the time lost repositioning the gun, and especially the time lost when it doesn't immediately release. We are both old, me 74 and her 67, so I said that I doubt that we will be getting stronger, so best to change technique rather than expect to overcome a strength problem. What do you think? Good idea or??

A common technique used for Glocks, especially Gen 3 with small buttons is to “flip” the gun in the hand to hit the mag release which also puts the magwell in a natural orientation to receive the new magazine.


https://youtu.be/VfIaMB1TvLI

Also note that Max Michel, CO champion also does a “flip” with his P320 while reloading.

It’s way faster than anything that occupies either pointer finger.

[JCN]

CraigS

If it is a dedicated gaming gun you can try cutting or lightening the mag release spring. That can help a lot as well.

Here is a left handed trigger finger roll release that doesn’t take any additional time.


https://youtu.be/Wa-0pN-6K6Y

[GyroF-16]

I’m with Mas - as a lefty, that’s my technique for “right handed”guns (sometimes the strong hand middle finger works as well / better).

Oh - and much respect for a COUPLE who’s ages round to “70-ish” for being out there competing and working to improve.
Especially your wife, as IDPA isn’t often a “mature woman” game. Good on you both.

[CraigS]

A couple of details I left out initially. We are shooting Beretta 92s. I have cut the mag release spring so it is definately easier to push. I have a huge groove in the G10 grips that I use but we are reluctant to do that to her new nice wood grips.
91454
May have to, but probably as a last resort. The Shannon Smith video is very good. I like that he spends a lot of time showing technique in good detail. My take away is that maybe flipping the gun is no big deal. We will need to work on that. I really like his point about having the gun up high so one can actually see the mag well. I think that is one of those subtle things where making use of a natural physical phenomenon has to help. I am going to adopt that technique. (An interesting side benefit of trying to help her is that I have to pay attention to my own technique too.) I will try flipping the mag release and see how that works. I had messed with it w/o actually moving the release and it seemed to be very awkward to get my finger tip that far to the rear of the gun. It required a gun flip in the opposite direction for me but may work for her. Thanks guys, this is really helpful.

[Jim Watson]

Oh, man, oh Lady, Beretta is about as far out on the Big Butt curve as you can get with a popular pistol.
I don't see much to do about it not already mentioned, shift the gun or set up to use a finger.
I learned to do a left handed reload for long WHO stages, so the finger method definitely works.

I am glad a nice young couple like yourselves are in the shooting sports.
(I am 77 and while I should not divulge my protege's age, she is a Grown Up Lady.)

[vcdgrips]

Concur re much respect re doing IDPA together.

Concur re exploring lighter mag release springs, making sure the parts are as smooth as possible etc

Re sanding/removing material on the grip panel:

1. Go low and slow

2. Wear eye protection

3. Do it in a well ventilated area and/or have a fan blow across your work space

4. Strongly consider wearing an N95 3M particulate mask so you do not inhale anything. This is critical with polymer, G10, Micarta etc.

As much as you would hate "damaging" a nice set of grips if my choice was flip the gun OR remove enough material so as to not have to flip the gun, I would remove the material. I fully acknowledge that it might not be an A v B choice for a given person.

If this would be helpful, I have successfully textured the factory Plastic Beretta grips many times, if you sent me such grips, I would texture them for free and return them to you 1st class USPS with tracking CONUS for free as well as a sign of respect to a couple recreating together in the shooting sports. PM me if interested.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203529369133

[Joe45]

I was going to suggest the same as Mas and then I saw he had already posted it. Makes sense since I'm pretty sure he was the first person I learned that method from many years ago.

Good luck and good for both of you. Enjoy the competitions!

[CraigS]

Oh, man, oh Lady, Beretta is about as far out on the Big Butt curve as you can get with a popular pistol....
Yep a 92 is far from ideal for idpa but we a more or less stuck w/ them. 25 or so years ago we got our first pistol for HD. A Ruger full size in decock only configuration. For what ever reason we were never happy w/ our results so each time I went to the indoor range to practice I would also rent one of their guns. 4-5 trips later I rented a 92 and suddenly I could hit. Next time my wife was w/ me and we rented the 92 again. Same for her. This range was also a gun store and they dealt w/ a lot of the local police departments. A month or so later they had a used police trade-in 92f so I grabbed it. We both enjoyed shooting it and then I got an Elite II, and then she got an Elite II. 5 years ago I started idpa and that DA first shot was definitely a hindrance. But I got a lot of Langdon parts and made it a LOT better. We have nine 92s now and many, many mags and parts. So basically we are not changing and I like competing w/ the same gun we would use defensively. BTW her gun is that EII she bought back around 2000. She has many times mentioned to people in conversation that she has her own 92. She is quite proud of that.
Thanks again to everyone who has posted here. You guys are really a big help.

[Jim Watson]

I think that degree of involvement is worth learning a reload or altering the gun.
At least SSP-15 puts the reload later in the stage.

My protege went 'round and 'round with this and that but is now a settled Glocker. Bless her heart.

[Sal Picante]

Yep a 92 is far from ideal for idpa ...

Tell me more...

91483

[GyroF-16]

Tell me more...

91483

My thoughts exactly. I’d say that a 92 that’s properly set up is on the short list of guns that are nearly ideal for IDPA.

[Jim Watson]

Well, that's what E. Langdon says.

[rob_s]

It seems to me that the thread title is really “struggles with reloads using a beretta 92” as I’ve not seen anything here that makes this a specifically IDPA issue, other than the fact that it was discovered while shooting IDPA?

On the one hand, I can appreciate a woman being set on the gun she wants. My wife shoots a beretta a30 Outlander in sporting clays. I am in no itching hurry to spend Soren money, but I bet she’d do better with a different gun. But I’m also unable to convince her to try.

On the other hand, one might consider the challenges she’s facing to be “a clue”. One benefit of competition is that you get to vet your gear. I wouldn’t (necessarily) go shoot a few matches and dump my carry gun of choice based on the scores, but if I discovered a struggle with basic manipulation it would certainly give me pause.

If nothing else (if IDPA is gonna be your game of choice, where reloads are pretty much a given) being able to reliably and consistently perform a reload without a bunch of falderal seems to me to be kind of a critical aspect. Even if you’re of the “nobody reloads in a gunfight” mindset (which is fine), you, and she, have chosen to play a game that pretty much guarantees it.

FWIW I used to think it mattered to compete with the carry gun. And I still think that, if one is disinclined to reach a level of subconscious competence (SC) with their shooting and gunhandling. However, if one IS willing to reach, or has reached, the point of SC then I don’t think it matters one bit. And in fact, should one reach the point of SC, I think it’s a detriment to both defense and competition as one may become inclined to make adjustments that reduce the effectiveness of both while trying to achieve the unachievable (perfect gun, holster, and pouches for both competition and carry).

Caveat: I shot IDPA a lot, for a long time, a long time ago. I haven’t the foggiest idea what the current rules are. I ASS-u-me that reloads are still a big part of it but could be way off.

[GyroF-16]

It seems to me that the thread title is really “struggles with reloads using a beretta 92” as I’ve not seen anything here that makes this a specifically IDPA issue, other than the fact that it was discovered while shooting IDPA?

On the one hand, I can appreciate a woman being set on the gun she wants. My wife shoots a beretta a30 Outlander in sporting clays. I am in no itching hurry to spend Soren money, but I bet she’d do better with a different gun. But I’m also unable to convince her to try.

On the other hand, one might consider the challenges she’s facing to be “a clue”. One benefit of competition is that you get to vet your gear. I wouldn’t (necessarily) go shoot a few matches and dump my carry gun of choice based on the scores, but if I discovered a struggle with basic manipulation it would certainly give me pause.

If nothing else (if IDPA is gonna be your game of choice, where reloads are pretty much a given) being able to reliably and consistently perform a reload without a bunch of falderal seems to me to be kind of a critical aspect. Even if you’re of the “nobody reloads in a gunfight” mindset (which is fine), you, and she, have chosen to play a game that pretty much guarantees it.

FWIW I used to think it mattered to compete with the carry gun. And I still think that, if one is disinclined to reach a level of subconscious competence (SC) with their shooting and gunhandling. However, if one IS willing to reach, or has reached, the point of SC then I don’t think it matters one bit. And in fact, should one reach the point of SC, I think it’s a detriment to both defense and competition as one may become inclined to make adjustments that reduce the effectiveness of both while trying to achieve the unachievable (perfect gun, holster, and pouches for both competition and carry).

Caveat: I shot IDPA a lot, for a long time, a long time ago. I haven’t the foggiest idea what the current rules are. I ASS-u-me that reloads are still a big part of it but could be way off.


IDPA thread drift: with the rules that went into effect 1 Jun 22, SSP now loads 15 in all mags. The max stage round count is still 18, so reloads will still happen, but not quite as often. As a data point (probably an outlier), at last week’s local match, my son (shooting SSP) did not have to reload on any of the 4 stages. I (shooting CO) had to reload on 3 of them. Those 3 were stages that could be shot “clean” (no makeup shots) with 16 rds.

[rob_s]

IDPA thread drift: with the rules that went into effect 1 Jun 22, SSP now loads 15 in all mags. The max stage round count is still 18, so reloads will still happen, but not quite as often. As a data point (probably an outlier), at last week’s local match, my son (shooting SSP) did not have to reload on any of the 4 stages. I (shooting CO) had to reload on 3 of them. Those 3 were stages that could be shot “clean” (no makeup shots) with 16 rds.

Thanks!

that does seem relevant to the thread as-titled (reloads in IDPA) as that would seem to change the reloads from "pretty much every stage" to "maybe less than half".

[Jim Watson]

Not around here.
MDs are using downloaded starts and 17-18 round counts to make SSP-15 reload, too.
There have been being one or two stages per match at 16 or less. And most of those have movers or distant steel to make it difficult to get out without a reload.

I tried it but have gone back to 10+1 ESP or sub-caliber where I know what to do without having to count out every POC.

[rob_s]

Not around here.
MDs are using downloaded starts and 17-18 round counts to make SSP-15 reload, too.
There have been being one or two stages per match at 16 or less. And most of those have movers or distant steel to make it difficult to get out without a reload.

I tried it but have gone back to 10+1 ESP or sub-caliber where I know what to do without having to count out every POC.

I kinda figured that would be the case.

IMO reloads were always part of the fun of IDPA, but it seems most don't agree with that sentiment.

[CraigS]

I kinda figured that would be the case.

IMO reloads were always part of the fun of IDPA, but it seems most don't agree with that sentiment.

I agree. I actually like doing reloads just for the experience. 3 matches so far w/ the new SSP rule and I did note a couple of stages where the 16 made it easier but just a couple. I'd be fine though if they went back to 10/11. I have enough mags to load up and not need to reload during the match. So I loaded my 3rd mag for each stage w/ just 10. I figured that 2 mags will do the job unless one fails so better have 3 ready. Then just prior to the 2nd stage I realized that I don't always grab the front most mag so I could grab the 10rnd one by accident. Ah crap, 15/16 in all mags.

[CraigS]

So we shot a match couple of weeks ago and found some improvement. The video that JCN posted had some great techniques. In particular keeping the gun up higher while reloading really helps get that next shot going. Talked to a fellow shooter who has really researched the new rules. He is running 3 individual mag pouches. All are adjustable for cant and also hold the mags in bullet out orientation. He showed me how he sets the cant up differently for each mag. Puts his hand down to the area and looks at the angle that his knuckles are at w/ his hand at a normal comfortable angle compared to his forearm. He also grabs the mag and puts his index finger tip right below the bullet. Well not sure we want to do the individual mag pouches but I did mod our Fobus paddle type double mag carriers so the mags are leaning way back. We also insert the mags opposite to before, now it is bullets down. We did some messing around at home w/ this and it showed promise but is hard to simulate a reload when you don't have the gun cycling from the previous shot. The other day we went to the range and realized that working w/ 2 mags, each w/ 1 round worked out well. Load the gun normally w/ a 1 rnd mag and holster. Draw and shoot. Slide locks back. Drop the mag and load the next one. Shoot 1 rnd. Wife decided that she is going to push the mag release w/ her left (support) thumb because it is just too iffy whether she can get it to drop w/ strong thumb. W/ strong hand thumb she can hit the mag release but sometimes releases it too early (because her thumb muscle runs out) so then the mag stops dropping. She did 4-5 cycles, I did 4-5 cycles, she does 3-4 more cycles. She turns to me and says, THIS is a game changer for me. We went though 100 rnds 2 at a time like this. By the end we both had found a huge difference to previous reloads. The one thing she really likes is that once the reload is in and slide released, the gun is maybe 2 inches low and 6 inches closer to her chest than her normal shooting position. So it's very easy to get lined up for the next shot.
I want to thank everyone who posted to this thread. I started out wanting to help my wife but in the end we are both doing better reloads than ever before. Thanks guys.