US Consulate Burned to Ground/US State Dep Officer Killed

[TGS]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/11/13807579-american-killed-in-libya-during-protests-about-prophet-muhammad-video?lite

In addition, our embassy in Cairo was nearly up the creek as well. The Egyptian government delayed the response of police to drive back the mob.

[LHS]

Need to re-issue the M1917A1s to the embassies. Anything coming over the walls gets raked.

[TCinVA]

11 years ago they danced in the streets celebrating the attack.

Today they storm our embassies and kill our personnel.

Doesn't seem like a great deal of progress, does it?

[TGS]

Need to re-issue the M1917A1s to the embassies. Anything coming over the walls gets raked.

I bet 90% of America has no clue what the Boxer Rebellion/Siege of Foreign Legations was. The concept that we might actually have to shoot someone, let alone run out of ammo and fight with our bare hands, is just too much to handle.

[ford.304]

We've built the wall so high between civilization and everything else that most people don't really get that there's anything outside it.

[RoyGBiv]

We've built the wall so high between civilization and everything else that most people don't really get that there's anything outside it.

Harsh reality seems fast approaching.

[Dagga Boy]

I am waiting for a letter of apology to the Muslim world from the White House any minute. The most we may see is a "terse" letter to show how tough we are because its and election year.

Dillon Aero could solve these Embassy security issues.

[Odin Bravo One]

Need to re-issue the M1917A1s to the embassies. Anything coming over the walls gets raked.

Would not have made a bit of difference. Posture of the current administration places very restrictive ROE's on details assigned to USEMB's and USCON's.

Highly doubtful anyone there would know how to use them anyway.

[Tamara]

I've seen this show! It's called Welcome Back, Carter!


I am waiting for a letter of apology to the Muslim world from the White House any minute.

Will one from the State Department (http://scaredmonkeys.com/2012/09/12/charles-krathammer-slams-state-department-apology-obama-disavows-cairo-apology-who-is-in-charge-as-embassys-are-under-attack/) do?

[TCinVA]

Well apparently it's now 4 dead...including our ambassador.

Dear Washington D.C.: This would be what smart people call a clue.


I've seen this show! It's called Welcome Back, Carter!



Will one from the State Department (http://scaredmonkeys.com/2012/09/12/charles-krathammer-slams-state-department-apology-obama-disavows-cairo-apology-who-is-in-charge-as-embassys-are-under-attack/) do?

I cannot believe the U.S. government...any branch of it...issued that statement on 9/11.

[LittleLebowski]

Good thing we financed building mosques there in order to curry good favor with Egyptian Muslims. Tax dollars well spent.

[Tamara]

Well apparently it's now 4 dead...including our ambassador.

This is the part where we're supposed to park HMS Thunderer off the coast and start shelling their straw huts before we land a party of Royal Marines with some Gatling guns to shoot up the wog village and teach them some manners.

Wait, I forgot, this is where we apologize to them for offending their peaceful religion.

I was born a hundred years too late.

[JV_]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-is-obama-skipping-more-than-half-of-his-daily-intelligence-meetings/2012/09/10/6624afe8-fb49-11e1-b153-218509a954e1_story.html


The Government Accountability Institute examined President Obama’s schedule from the day he took office until mid-June 2012, to see how often he attended his Presidential Daily Brief (PDB) — the meeting at which he is briefed on the most critical intelligence threats to the country. During his first 1,225 days in office, Obama attended his PDB just 536 times — or 43.8 percent of the time. During 2011 and the first half of 2012, his attendance became even less frequent — falling to just over 38 percent. By contrast, Obama’s predecessor, George W. Bush almost never missed his daily intelligence meeting.


It might be time to start attending more than 43% of your PDBs.

[LittleLebowski]

This is the part where we're supposed to park HMS Thunderer off the coast and start shelling their straw huts before we land a party of Royal Marines with some Gatling guns to shoot up the wog village and teach them some manners.

Wait, I forgot, this is where we apologize to them for offending their peaceful religion.

I was born a hundred years too late.

I'd settle for dropping the monthly dole checks.

[Tamara]

"Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!"

*sigh* I'll bet not one senior administration official has ever seen The Wind And The Lion.

[NETim]

"Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!"

*sigh* I'll bet not one senior administration official has ever seen The Wind And The Lion.

Raisuli: Winchester? WINCHESTER?!? I have no knowledge of this rifle.

Pedicaris: You will.

The soundtrack alone makes the flick.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=glxDkhbPf44

[Tamara]

Maybe the administration can dispatch the Black Sea Fleet (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/09/navy-russian-warships-displayed-dnc-veterans-tribute-091112/) to calm things down over there.

[NickA]

So it sounds like there was no Marine security detachment at the embassy, only local security? Is that normal?
Side note: how is it that we haven't invented a flag that can't be burned or ripped apart? I'm tired of seeing Old Glory defiled, would rather watch these lunatics immolate themselves trying to torch it or stroke out trying to pull it apart.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

There was 2 Marines killed along with the Ambassador. Sounds like the Marine FAST team is en route.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57511043/libya-assault-on-u.s-consulate-in-benghazi-leaves-4-dead-including-u.s-ambassador-j-christopher-stevens/

[Gary1911A1]

This is the part where we're supposed to park HMS Thunderer off the coast and start shelling their straw huts before we land a party of Royal Marines with some Gatling guns to shoot up the wog village and teach them some manners.

Wait, I forgot, this is where we apologize to them for offending their peaceful religion.

I was born a hundred years too late.

I guess I was born a 100 years to late too. First your enemies have to fear you to then respect you. We have neither with them.

[TCinVA]

I can only guess that the people in D.C. thought that since we helped protect Lybians from being slaughtered by their former dictator, that there was no cause to be concerned for security.

Apparently the mind of the "arab street" is more primitive than they realized.

[NickA]

There was 2 Marines killed along with the Ambassador. Sounds like the Marine FAST team is en route.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57511043/libya-assault-on-u.s-consulate-in-benghazi-leaves-4-dead-including-u.s-ambassador-j-christopher-stevens/
Thanks, hadn't seen that in any of the stories I've read so far.


I guess I was born a 100 years to late too. First your enemies have to fear you to then respect you. We have neither with them.
"Oderint dum metuant"- Let them hate, so long as they fear. Words to live by.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

Wanis al-Sharef, a Libyan Interior Ministry official in Benghazi, said the four Americans were killed when the angry mob, which gathered to protest a U.S.-made film that ridicules Islam's Prophet Muhammad, fired guns and burned down the U.S. consulate in Benghazi.

He said Stevens, 52, and other officials were moved to a second building, deemed safer, after the initial wave of protests at the consulate. According to al-Sharef, members of the Libyan security team seem to have indicated to the protesters the building to which the American officials had been relocated, and that building then came under attack.

http://robsmovievault.files.wordpress.com/1993/02/falling_down.jpg

[TCinVA]

Honestly, dude...did you really expect it to be otherwise?

We don't have many friends in the middle east. Probably even fewer after we blabbed and got the guy who handed us Bin Laden imprisoned in Pakistan. Realpolitik: The enemy of my enemy is my friend...until I no longer need him, and then he's my enemy.

[NETim]

Back to TWTL. Milius absolutely nails it in TR's hunting camp "press conference."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RIjIKlpvGT0

[TGS]

Great references to that movie!

Here's a fitting clip for this trouble.

Skip to 1:08:53. I couldn't find just the attack.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7013894285368480934

[JHC]

Wise words from the wise Grim.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/the-language-of-honor.html#comments

[TCinVA]

I'm voting for Romney holding my nose...but in his press conference he told some shrill news harpy essentially that we don't apologize for the 1st amendment.

It isn't much, but it's better than I was expecting.

[LittleLebowski]

There are pics on the web of the "protesters" parading through the streets with the ambassador's body.

[TCinVA]

Some are claiming those are pictures of the people trying to help him.

In my head I'm seeing CNN play video of Shughart and Gordon being drug through the streets of Somalia and I have to admit I'm having a hard time seeing those photos as an effort to render assistance to the Ambassador.

[TGS]

Some are claiming those are pictures of the people trying to help him.

In my head I'm seeing CNN play video of Shughart and Gordon being drug through the streets of Somalia and I have to admit I'm having a hard time seeing those photos as an effort to render assistance to the Ambassador.

Huge crowd overruns and burns consulate.

RPG fired, killing Americans.

Huge crowd rushes to his aid.

Umm........right. How's that little tune go? "One of these claims is not like the other ones, not like the other ones........"

[TCinVA]

Yeah. Kinda my take on it.

[ToddG]

Here's what I'd like to know:

How many Libyan LE/mil personnel were dispatched to end the riot at the US Consulate?
How many Libyan "protesters" were injured or killed by Libyan government personnel in the defense of the US Consulate?



Next week, the U.N. General Assembly begins in NYC. If a large group of armed, violent protesters try to attack the Libyan ambassador's residence, vehicle, or team the immediate reaction is going to be an army of Secret Service, Diplomatic Security, and NYPD cops using whatever force is necessary to protect him. That includes, without doubt or hesitation, the use of lethal force to kill American citizens who are engaged in an unlawful attempt to kill, kidnap, or otherwise harm a foreign diplomat.

Did Libya put forth a similar immediate and violent reaction to counter the danger posed to our consulate and our citizens trapped inside?

[LittleLebowski]

Here's what I'd like to know:
Next week, the U.N. General Assembly begins in NYC. If a large group of armed, violent protesters try to attack the Libyan ambassador's residence, vehicle, or team the immediate reaction is going to be an army of Secret Service, Diplomatic Security, and NYPD cops using whatever force is necessary to protect him. That includes, without doubt or hesitation, the use of lethal force to kill American citizens who are engaged in an unlawful attempt to kill, kidnap, or otherwise harm a foreign diplomat.

Did Libya put forth a similar immediate and violent reaction to counter the danger posed to our consulate and our citizens trapped inside?

I love your standup work :D

[LittleLebowski]

Supposedly (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/u-s-ambassador-to-libya-3-others-killed-in-rocket-attack-witness-says/) the attack was planned and the protest was used as diversion.


Tuesday's attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, was planned in advance, and the attackers used the protest outside the consulate as a diversion, U.S. sources told CNN Wednesday.

[TCinVA]

You can't see how truly shocky my shock face is at the revelation that this was an islamist plot perpetrated on the anniversary of another islamist plot.

[LittleLebowski]

You can't see how truly shocky my shock face is at the revelation that this was an islamist plot perpetrated on the anniversary of another islamist plot.

I beg to differ. The Libyan government blames this upon Gadafi loyalists.

[TCinVA]

I beg to differ. The Libyan government blames this upon Gadafi loyalists.

Of course it was.

[Tamara]

I beg to differ. The Libyan government blames this upon Gadafi loyalists.

Uh-huh. 'Cause 9/11 is such a big date on the Jamahiriyist calendar.

[Chemsoldier]

So it sounds like there was no Marine security detachment at the embassy, only local security? Is that normal?
Side note: how is it that we haven't invented a flag that can't be burned or ripped apart? I'm tired of seeing Old Glory defiled, would rather watch these lunatics immolate themselves trying to torch it or stroke out trying to pull it apart.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

It was a consulate, not an embassy. Those often are not as well protected. the Marine detachments are mostly at the embassy is often a very small part of the total security of an embassy that can include hired guards, host nation LE and Military, State Department Diplomatic Security personnel and other elements of the US Government.

[RoyGBiv]

Communication from Sean Smith to his online gaming community just prior to and at the start of the attacks in Libya.
"News" comes from unusual places sometimes... http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/vilerat/

Emphasis added...

On Tuesday, Sean Smith, a Foreign Service Information Management Officer assigned to the American consulate in Benghazi, Libya, typed a message to the director of his online gaming guild: ”Assuming we don’t die tonight. We saw one of our ‘police’ that guard the compound taking pictures.” The consulate was under siege, and within hours, a mob would attack, killing Smith along with three others, including the U.S. ambassador.

[Zhurdan]

Communication from Sean Smith to his online gaming community just prior to and at the start of the attacks in Libya.
"News" comes from unusual places sometimes... http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/vilerat/

Emphasis added...

VileRat was one hell of an EVE player. He destroyed several of my ships in game and was a good sport about it. Didn't know him well but did know to fly the other way when he popped into a system.

Rest in Peace VR.

[SGT_Calle]

I bet 90% of America has no clue what the Boxer Rebellion/Siege of Foreign Legations was. The concept that we might actually have to shoot someone, let alone run out of ammo and fight with our bare hands, is just too much to handle.

I know the boxer rebellion for one reason, its the only conflict in which an Army musician was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor: Calvin P. Titus. http://www.iowahistory.org/museum/exhibits/medal-of-honor/sf-04-titus-br/index.htm

I don't mean to hijack, I'm all kinds of fired up over these embassy attacks.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[SGT_Calle]

It was a consulate, not an embassy. Those often are not as well protected. the Marine detachments are mostly at the embassy is often a very small part of the total security of an embassy that can include hired guards, host nation LE and Military, State Department Diplomatic Security personnel and other elements of the US Government.

This is the first I've heard/realized the difference between consulate and embassy. For me this is huge.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[Tamara]

This is the first I've heard/realized the difference between consulate and embassy. For me this is huge.

An ambassador was killed.

An ambassador is, in his very person, a representative of the sovereign.

In America, the sovereign is me. And you. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm pissed. Those jackholes just attacked me, and don't think they don't know it.

[TNWNGR]

I learned of these incidents this morning when I finally got to my office after court. Theodore Roosevelt was the first United States President I thought of who could have most effectively communicated his sentiments through effective action. The Wind and The Lion film was very much on my mind and at one time any foreign country which allowed US Diplomats or Citizens to be killed or injured in their country knew full well what would happen. Giving food, money and weapons to foreign powers does not engender them to use because they expect this as their due from a despised country led by impotent wind bags.

[Tamara]

Some combination of font and color causes me to repeatedly read this thread's title

US Consulate Burned to Ground/US State Dep Officer Killed
as

US Consulate Burned to Ground/US State Derp Officer Killed

May God have mercy on my soul... :eek:

[TGS]

Thought you guys would like to see this, which documents a peaceful rally held today in Benghazi.

Buzzfeed.com: 15 Photos Of Libyans Apologizing to Americans (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-photos-of-benghazi-citizens-apologizing-to-amer)

[secondstoryguy]

Thought you guys would like to see this, which documents a peaceful rally held today in Benghazi.

Buzzfeed.com: 15 Photos Of Libyans Apologizing to Americans (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-photos-of-benghazi-citizens-apologizing-to-amer)

I think they just want the checks to keep coming and are scared of us dropping the hammer.

[YVK]

It was a consulate, not an embassy. Those often are not as well protected.

I've been inside the US consulate that occupied an apartment in a residential building. Not not well protected, unprotected for all intents and purposes. The embassy in that same country is a freaking fortress.

The opposition that fought Gaddafi was a mob from a beginning. That's how they were called in media - the opposition, no names, no leaders. The first dude who became recognizable , forgot his name, got popped by an opposing faction right there and then. This is the kind of mob that was supported by our foreign policy machine to take power. Aside from a question who was a lesser evil - 2012 edition of Gaddafi or a raging Islamic mob - I can't help but wonder whose risk assessment it was that said it was OK to keep a vulnerable US entity in that shithole.

I really wish could chip in and rent out Mossad's services for a couple of weeks.

[RoyGBiv]

I think they just want the checks to keep coming and are scared of us dropping the hammer.

A jaded lens is understandable, but not useful.

[Odin Bravo One]

Thought you guys would like to see this, which documents a peaceful rally held today in Benghazi.

Buzzfeed.com: 15 Photos Of Libyans Apologizing to Americans (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-photos-of-benghazi-citizens-apologizing-to-amer)

That would seem to align with the assessment of a planned attack vs. radical uprising for no reason.


I think they just want the checks to keep coming and are scared of us dropping the hammer.

Doubtful.



Aside from a question who was a lesser evil - 2012 edition of Gaddafi or a raging Islamic mob - I can't help but wonder whose risk assessment it was that said it was OK to keep a vulnerable US entity in that shithole.


Hmmmm............

Pretty sure it was Paul Simon who wrote "All I suggest...........Still the man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest".

[Tamara]

Thought you guys would like to see this, which documents a peaceful rally held today in Benghazi.

The cynic in me sees fewer people in that crowd than are currently on our embassy grounds in Sana'a.

[TCinVA]

It's entirely possible that Al Quaeda used the chaos of Lybia to attack our ambassador there to drive a wedge between Lybians we can deal with and us. Deceit and disinformation are as much a part of the international relations tool-kit as anything else.

I think it's pretty clear that Egypt is organized radicalism from the bottom up. It's a new terrorist state. The primitive fanatics...leader of which enjoyed education and The Good Life here in the states for quite some time...are ruthlessly in control.

Lybia? I just don't know. I'm not familiar enough with the players and the ongoing operations there to be able to know whether the people holding up the signs are an attempt at disinformation or whether they're representative of the majority sentiment in a place that really doesn't want to be run by a bunch of primitive fanatics. I'd certainly like to believe in a western-friendly majority, but I don't know how we can trust that.

[TGS]

NightWatch Special Comment: Ambassador Anne Patterson's April Glaspie moment.

Ambassador Anne Patterson, the US Ambassador to Egypt, experienced her 'April Glaspie' moment yesterday when she blamed Americans instead of Egyptians for attacking, storming and desecrating the US Embassy in Cairo and the US Flag.

...[snip]...

She did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition, according to USMC blogs. Thus she neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy.

In this respect, she did not defend US sovereign territory and betrayed her oath of office. She neutered the Marines posted to defend the embassy, trusting the Egyptians over the Marines.

She apparently judges that Egyptian President Mursi spearheads a democracy and a new civil order, despite the mounting evidence that Mursi disregards US interests, cavorts with US enemies, is a budding authoritarian ruler who disdains parliament and does not honor the basic obligations of diplomatic agreements and the Geneva conventions.

[snip]


Emphasis added by me. Staff, this is not a wholesale repost of copyrighted material. At least, I don't think it is. It's copyrighted, but I only took the pertinent parts so it's not "extensive; broadly indiscriminant"(Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wholesale)). So I don't think it's "wholesale." Whatever. I don't know.

Did we not learn any lessons from the 1983 Beirut bombing, Ambassador?

[BaiHu]

Thought this was an interesting post I found today:

http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/some-thoughts-on-power-revolution-and-the-arab-spring/#more-20293

[Slavex]

the pics of the Libyan people apologizing is rather amazing. I don't think I've ever seen something like that before. Very surreal.

[RoyGBiv]

Thought this was an interesting post I found today:

http://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/some-thoughts-on-power-revolution-and-the-arab-spring/#more-20293

Interesting comments...

Especially interesting but OT..

Consider the question of power by asking the following question: Does the President of the United States have power to appoint a Secretary of State who was a member of a Congress that voted a pay-raise for that position? You could look at the Constitution, Article I, Section 6, clause 2, and say no, the Constitution clearly forbids that, and the President does not have that power. Or you could point out that Obama did precisely that when he appointed Hillary Clinton, and it turns out that in actual point of fact, apparently he does have that power.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/a1_6_2.html
Article 1, Section 6, Clause 2

No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

[Odin Bravo One]

Lybia? I just don't know. I'm not familiar enough with the players and the ongoing operations there to be able to know whether the people holding up the signs are an attempt at disinformation or whether they're representative of the majority sentiment in a place that really doesn't want to be run by a bunch of primitive fanatics. I'd certainly like to believe in a western-friendly majority, but I don't know how we can trust that.

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but it seems to me the people of Libya are genuinely interested in democratic reform, freedom, and the people we saw the photo's of were genuine in their apologies and concern for the USAMB's death.

Despite what some may believe, Libya is a fairly modern country, with a metric shit ton of western influence. Just because we were not their buddy doesn't mean others weren't.

[JV_]

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but it seems to me the people of Libya are genuinely interested in democratic reform, freedom, and the people we saw the photo's of were genuine in their apologies and concern for the USAMB's death. That's my take as well.

[bdcheung]

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/06/world/africa/libya-violence/index.html

June, 2012: The U.S. Consulate in Benghazi was bombed by the same group that is suspected of the recent September attack.

So the Obama administration knew it was a target, and still didn't increase security?

[Odin Bravo One]

It's not always that simple.

Libya, especially, is a complex and fluid environment. I don't like the POTUS any more than the next conservative guy, but the blame does not lie on his shoulders. Or even Cankles. The threat level for violence against American interests and personnel has fluctuated over the past year, but the place is relatively safe. If we apply the same types of logic outlined in the thread to everything............then none of the terrorist attacks in the past 20 years should have had any measure of success.

Should really re-consider throwing the President under the bus, and re-think what you think you know about the Middle East. If everything you know about that region comes from the news and the internet, then 99% of your information is likely wrong. (Generalized statement, not directed at any one person).

[bdcheung]

It's not always that simple.

So, for the uneducated... what complicates it?

[Odin Bravo One]

In this case, a government in transition, tribal affiliations, divisions of power and leadership in the new government, control of military and police, control and custody of weapons, alliances with and against AQIM and other AQ affiliated organizations, etc.

I mean, how many people knew that the Zintan rebels, who were critical and did the majority of the heavy lifting in the taking of Tripoli ended up going to blows with the new government based on the above? This was only 2 months ago, after a long standoff regarding control of Tripoli International Airport on the outskirts of town. You can't ignore the Zintan because they hold a lot of power and influence in their region, and have the guns, bodies, and balls to back it up. And are also big fans of the US. Can't ignore the government in transition, as they are the basis for improved relations with Libya. These two groups are still at odds with each other. This is but one example, albeit, a significant one.

I can't, in a typed reply on the internet, begin to explain all of the complexities of the State Dept.'s mission and security posture in that country. Bottom line is, if people KNEW it was going to happen, steps would have been taken. Just like if people KNEW a bunch of dudes were going to fly airplanes into buildings, someone would have taken steps to prevent it.

Reality is, they didn't know. Shit happens. And unfortunately, people died in the process.

[JHC]

In this case, a government in transition, tribal affiliations, divisions of power and leadership in the new government, control of military and police, control and custody of weapons, alliances with and against AQIM and other AQ affiliated organizations, etc.

I mean, how many people knew that the Zintan rebels, who were critical and did the majority of the heavy lifting in the taking of Tripoli ended up going to blows with the new government based on the above? This was only 2 months ago, after a long standoff regarding control of Tripoli International Airport on the outskirts of town. You can't ignore the Zintan because they hold a lot of power and influence in their region, and have the guns, bodies, and balls to back it up. And are also big fans of the US. Can't ignore the government in transition, as they are the basis for improved relations with Libya. These two groups are still at odds with each other. This is but one example, albeit, a significant one.

I can't, in a typed reply on the internet, begin to explain all of the complexities of the State Dept.'s mission and security posture in that country. Bottom line is, if people KNEW it was going to happen, steps would have been taken. Just like if people KNEW a bunch of dudes were going to fly airplanes into buildings, someone would have taken steps to prevent it.

Reality is, they didn't know. Shit happens. And unfortunately, people died in the process.

I have seen it briefed (by State) that Libyan police died fighting next to our guys. And a local militia responded and joined the fight on our behalf.

There are some major flaws with this Administration's overall approach to this region IMO which is formed by reading multiple SME's with a lot of knowledge of the land; hell some are from that land. Whether any of that directly impacted this event I would have no idea.

[BaiHu]

Sean M/JHC,

I respect your opinions and fact unveiling and will take it at face value, b/c I truly don't know and couldn't counter-argue even if I was stupid enough to start. However, I do have a serious question: why does any of what you two have shared matter to the bigger picture? Ie Obama's shit response and the fact that we are in this mess in the first place. 9/11 was unique-this is certainly not, especially given the location and prior attempts, no?

Isn't an embassy/consulate supposed to represent the United States and all that it entails?

Isn't it the CINC's responsibility to protect the constitution and the American people?

Isn't it the CINC's responsibility to make sure that the men/women in uniform are properly equipped in a known hot zone for the past 40+ years?

If it isn't the CINC's responsibility to arm the aforementioned people/places responsibly, then whose is it?

I appreciate the information that you two shared about the Zintans and the complications of the 'on the ground' issues with a country in revolt, but why is our intelligence so bad that a 100 guys riding around with RPGs, etc in the middle of a fairly modern society, headed for a consulate not an obvious issue that needs to be dealt with asap? And how are we not prepared for this with at lease a couple of gunships for intimidation's sake and an exfil on a roof top within 2 hours after this attack forms?

I hope I didn't come off as an ass, but this is frustrating and I want to understand the larger picture that is embassy/consulate attacks and the US looking like we can't keep the pie from being swiped off the window sill. Especially in a country like Egypt where we own a great portion of their war materiel and technology.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'll make an attempt, but no promises here.

The Embassy is The United States. The Ambassador (AMBO) is the CINC's/POTUS's direct representative, under the Secretary of State. The Ambassador is what is known as the "Chief of Mission" or "COM". They are usually the highest ranking government official in the country on behalf of the USA. They exercise the policy of the President, in keeping with his strategic foreign policy objectives. The AMBO is the instrument of the President's policy.

Consulates serve limited functions of the Embassy, often times, very limited. They perform such services as visa applications, some humanitarian aid projects, urban development, education, etc., but not on the same scale as the Embassy.

The CINC/POTUS is in charge of all foreign relations as well as foreign policy, and ultimately responsible. But that is like making a ship's Captain responsible for a collision while he is sound asleep at O'dark thirty. Sure, he is saddled with the ultimate responsibility, but not much he could do to prevent catastrophe given the circumstances. Certainly the foreign policy part, the POTUS is very responsible. But what role that really played in this incident is certainly very debatable, and as I have seen so far today, is being debated.

The security posture of an Embassy/Consulate/American interests, and personnel are based on assessments made by the RSO, or Regional Security Officer. RSO's are well trained, and have years and years of experience prior to being appointed to the position. He/She provides situation brief's and security concerns to the AMBO, who makes security policies, dictates security posture, sets travel restrictions, security restrictions, increased security at installations, housing area's, etc. I would speculate that the AMBO who was killed felt the situation to be safe, and the area secure enough to travel with minimal security guards, and there was not any intelligence indicating an attack (as I referenced in my last post). If there had been, no one is going to flat out ignore it.

Ambassador's are appointed, either by the President (for campaign contributions, or childhood pals, or whatever), or can advance through a career as a Foreign Service Officer with DoS. Generally speaking, appointees ideology mirrors that of the person who appointed them. Career FSO's who have advanced themselves to the "rank" of Ambassador, are trained, and very experienced diplomats. Career diplomats, who prefer to find diplomatic solutions to problems rather than violence, and often have an aversion to guns and other weapons as tools. So what you have is a difference in mentality and mindset. They are not warriors, and do not read and asses threats the same as a person trained in violence, i.e., the RSO. The AMBO holds the equivalent rank of a 2-Star General, and as I mentioned earlier, generally the senior official on the ground. Except in declared war, or other military operations approved by Congress, the AMBO sets the Rules of Engagement for Force Protection/Security. The AMBO will also, at times restrict and/or dictate what weapons may be utilized, or prohibited, what types of munitions, guns loaded or unloaded, etc. His country, his rules. Marines assigned to US Embassy's ALWAYS fall under the Ambassador's rules of engagement and command. And despite belief's the contrary, the Marine Security Guards are not there to protect the Ambassador, Embassy personnel, or even the Embassy itself. They guard information, not installations. Once the information they are there to protect is safeguarded, they may be dual use, and assist the RSO and embassy guard force with physical security, but that is not their primary function. They are armed and equipped with the tools necessary to accomplish their mission/perform their job duties. As are the DoS security people.

As for gunships, and the like.......Libya is a sovereign nation. We don't just have tacit authority to fly into their airspace whenever we feel the urge. When VIPs visit, there is a lengthy process to get contingency aircraft authority to fly into Libyan airspace in the event of an emergency. We also don't fly in with gunships and blast mobs on a regular basis. On the topic of people driving through town with RPG's, who is there to stop them? The local police. Maybe they aren't equipped to do anything about it. Or even find them. Not all of the police cars or foot patrols have comms. They also probably didn't stand out like they would in the US driving down Wisteria Lane. Just because the news quit reporting on Libya after Qaddafi was killed doesn't mean there are not still turf wars and tribal dick measuring contests. Lots of things we take for granted in terms of materiel, mindset, and mannerisms that do not translate directly to foreign countries. Seeing a group of men armed with RPGs or AKs in Libya doesn't attract much attention.

Sure the POTUS is ultimately responsible for all of those things BaiHu questioned. But it is up to the DoS, and country teams (AMBO and Staff) to set security, request additional security if needed, etc. Keep in mind, the previous AMBO returned amid the rebellion after Tripoli fell to the rebels, and worked throughout the country even while battles raged, and the hunt for Qaddafi was still on. Certainly there were security concerns, and even a few incidents of attacks and threats against the Ambassador, his staff, and the newly established embassy. (The old embassy was burned out, blown up, and unsuitable for use or repair). But the overall situation was relatively safe for Americans in the country.

As for intel...............failures are known, successes are not. Intel is not an exact science, and as we have all witnessed over the past 11 years, there are gaps, leaks, lack of communications, and flat out not knowing. But the folks doing the work are doing their best. People who criticize the results and end products, usually after intelligence failures, rarely have the faintest idea of the work these people do, how dangerous it is, or how much skill, training, and sacrifice it requires. And they are very good at their jobs. Very good. Are the perfect? No.

Are any of us perfect?


Hopefully that helped a little.

With that, I am going to bow out of this topic.................

[LHS]

In the world of attempts, that one was pretty successful. Nice to see some detailed explanation of the workings most of us have never seen.

Thanks.


I'll make an attempt, but no promises here.

The Embassy is The United States. The Ambassador (AMBO) is the CINC's/POTUS's direct representative, under the Secretary of State. The Ambassador is what is known as the "Chief of Mission" or "COM". They are usually the highest ranking government official in the country on behalf of the USA. They exercise the policy of the President, in keeping with his strategic foreign policy objectives. The AMBO is the instrument of the President's policy.

Consulates serve limited functions of the Embassy, often times, very limited. They perform such services as visa applications, some humanitarian aid projects, urban development, education, etc., but not on the same scale as the Embassy.

The CINC/POTUS is in charge of all foreign relations as well as foreign policy, and ultimately responsible. But that is like making a ship's Captain responsible for a collision while he is sound asleep at O'dark thirty. Sure, he is saddled with the ultimate responsibility, but not much he could do to prevent catastrophe given the circumstances. Certainly the foreign policy part, the POTUS is very responsible. But what role that really played in this incident is certainly very debatable, and as I have seen so far today, is being debated.

The security posture of an Embassy/Consulate/American interests, and personnel are based on assessments made by the RSO, or Regional Security Officer. RSO's are well trained, and have years and years of experience prior to being appointed to the position. He/She provides situation brief's and security concerns to the AMBO, who makes security policies, dictates security posture, sets travel restrictions, security restrictions, increased security at installations, housing area's, etc. I would speculate that the AMBO who was killed felt the situation to be safe, and the area secure enough to travel with minimal security guards, and there was not any intelligence indicating an attack (as I referenced in my last post). If there had been, no one is going to flat out ignore it.

Ambassador's are appointed, either by the President (for campaign contributions, or childhood pals, or whatever), or can advance through a career as a Foreign Service Officer with DoS. Generally speaking, appointees ideology mirrors that of the person who appointed them. Career FSO's who have advanced themselves to the "rank" of Ambassador, are trained, and very experienced diplomats. Career diplomats, who prefer to find diplomatic solutions to problems rather than violence, and often have an aversion to guns and other weapons as tools. So what you have is a difference in mentality and mindset. They are not warriors, and do not read and asses threats the same as a person trained in violence, i.e., the RSO. The AMBO holds the equivalent rank of a 2-Star General, and as I mentioned earlier, generally the senior official on the ground. Except in declared war, or other military operations approved by Congress, the AMBO sets the Rules of Engagement for Force Protection/Security. The AMBO will also, at times restrict and/or dictate what weapons may be utilized, or prohibited, what types of munitions, guns loaded or unloaded, etc. His country, his rules. Marines assigned to US Embassy's ALWAYS fall under the Ambassador's rules of engagement and command. And despite belief's the contrary, the Marine Security Guards are not there to protect the Ambassador, Embassy personnel, or even the Embassy itself. They guard information, not installations. Once the information they are there to protect is safeguarded, they may be dual use, and assist the RSO and embassy guard force with physical security, but that is not their primary function.

Sure the POTUS is ultimately responsible for all of those things BaiHu questioned. But it is up to the DoS, and country teams (AMBO and Staff) to set security, request additional security if needed, etc. Keep in mind, the previous AMBO returned amid the rebellion after Tripoli fell to the rebels, and worked throughout the country even while battles raged, and the hunt for Qaddafi was still on. Certainly there were security concerns, and even a few incidents of attacks and threats against the Ambassador, his staff, and the newly established embassy. (The old embassy was burned out, blown up, and unsuitable for use or repair). But the overall situation was relatively safe for Americans in the country.

As for intel...............failures are known, successes are not. Intel is not an exact science, and as we have all witnessed over the past 11 years, there are gaps, leaks, lack of communications, and flat out not knowing. But the folks doing the work are doing their best. People who criticize the results and end products, usually after intelligence failures, haven't the faintest idea of the work these people do, how dangerous it is, or how much skill, training, and sacrifice it requires. And they are very good at their jobs. Are the perfect? No.

Are any of us perfect?

Hopefully that helped shed a little light? Perhaps?

With that, I am going to bow out of this topic.................

[TGS]

And how are we not prepared for this with at lease a couple of gunships for intimidation's sake and an exfil on a roof top within 2 hours after this attack forms?

Aircraft are extremely expensive to operate.

You can't expect any embassy to be within operating range of a gunship or lift platform, and that those squadrons are sitting around just waiting. Specific to the USMC's primary heavy lift platform, the CH53, it costs $32,000 per hour to operate. Even if we could just fly our military aircraft anywhere we wanted, we wouldn't have the money, nor to manpower, to have skids and lift platforms sitting all over the globe.

As for 2 hours......how do you know they didn't start relocating personnel within two hours?

Ditto on what Sean spoke to with MSGs. Their mission is to protect classified/sensitive materials. A lot of embassies do not rate them. Some embassies have security measures that consist of locking the front door as the last person leaves for the day. Consider that maybe the 8 man team of Marines working with the Libyan commandos, who together came under a pre-planned ambush with accurate mortar fire, were part of reinforcements sent to Libya beforehand.

With going off what Sean said about the difficulties of intel, consider that there's simply not enough manpower to have total omniscience. Especially for combating terrorist networks which are extremely decentralized, which requires a good amount of human intel. HUMINT can be high risk, high reward, but is most often high risk, resource intensive, and low reward. Intel is just a tough business to be in. The USIC is not God. So consider that given what intel was provided, other diplomatic installations may have been considered higher threat. Perhaps our embassy in Syria was reinforced, and for good reason.

[Tamara]

Sean,

Thank you for the informative post. (Although your choice of words did draw a chuckle in one place. When I read "Libya is a sovereign nation. We don't just have tacit authority to fly into their airspace whenever we feel the urge," I blurted "Since when? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_El_Dorado_Canyon)" aloud. ;))

[JHC]

Sean M/JHC,

I respect your opinions and fact unveiling and will take it at face value, b/c I truly don't know and couldn't counter-argue even if I was stupid enough to start. However, I do have a serious question: why does any of what you two have shared matter to the bigger picture? Ie Obama's shit response and the fact that we are in this mess in the first place. 9/11 was unique-this is certainly not, especially given the location and prior attempts, no?

Isn't an embassy/consulate supposed to represent the United States and all that it entails?

Isn't it the CINC's responsibility to protect the constitution and the American people?

Isn't it the CINC's responsibility to make sure that the men/women in uniform are properly equipped in a known hot zone for the past 40+ years?

If it isn't the CINC's responsibility to arm the aforementioned people/places responsibly, then whose is it?

I appreciate the information that you two shared about the Zintans and the complications of the 'on the ground' issues with a country in revolt, but why is our intelligence so bad that a 100 guys riding around with RPGs, etc in the middle of a fairly modern society, headed for a consulate not an obvious issue that needs to be dealt with asap? And how are we not prepared for this with at lease a couple of gunships for intimidation's sake and an exfil on a roof top within 2 hours after this attack forms?

I hope I didn't come off as an ass, but this is frustrating and I want to understand the larger picture that is embassy/consulate attacks and the US looking like we can't keep the pie from being swiped off the window sill. Especially in a country like Egypt where we own a great portion of their war materiel and technology.

I should not comment on the tactical arena and embassy operations as I've not nada in training or experience with that. OTOH, I am still not persuaded that it's just a shit happens moment when we are caught exposed. I'm not tolerant at all of insufficient tools in these third world shitholes and I think the full force of US diplomacy and influence should be brought to bear so that our DEA are not operating unarmed in Mexico, Egyptian embassy's Marine guards actually have live ammunition, and Spectre gunships would be available for MG Garrison to use as he saw fit.
I'm sick of seeing this movie played over and over again.

On the regional strategic level this Administration has as they say "sounded an uncertain bugle". I do not think our positioning ourselves like "we're almost Muslim too brothers!" can work. We should be what we are and establish partnerships on that basis. We don't have anything to apologize for.

It's tough to see unequivacal advantages to being OUR ally vs splitting partnerships with our enemies. I don't think we are feared nor respected. And not liked much either. Obama's Muslim outreach has been an abject failure. He doesn't poll well there anymore, he's neither feared nor respected. I think drone strikes are great for accomplishing a specific objective of killing some folks and ending whatever they might be up to. I don't think drone strikes establish "strategic fear" that change behaviors. Then again when you leave the arena of nation states and deal with a fanatical religious movement - there is no influencing them in any manner.

I'm generally an unrepentent neocon that supports the spread freedom and the prosperity that follows. (no that does not require all war all the time; it never has). But while many smart types that I respect like Faoud Ajami and others counsel patience with the Arab Spring and filling the void with our support to keep the worst elements out - I think that cow may be out of the barn. That and "democratic elections" or not - I don't believe majority enacted Sharia law is actually freedom.

The sad reality is they all just might have to do their time in the trough of their J Curve until they have a belly full of horror (see Anbar Awakening).

OTOH I get the feeling Libya is actually trying to work with us; whereas it looks all the world to me that Egypt is not playing us for a bitch.

[Slavex]

Sean and TGS, thanks for your posts in think I learned more from the last one each of you has made then I have in a long time.

[JHC]

If ALQ is behind the planned ambush of our embassy staff in Libya, this might be a signal that the "inside baseball" story there is real tangible progress on our part and that the Libyans are making a sincere effort to partner with us toward that progress. Note how ALQ threw everything they had at stopping Iraq's efforts to re-build new. It's long been their strategy in the region to draw American blood so that a tired America and hopefully less than resolved President will withdraw. That's all over their doctrine.

[NickA]

Sean and TGS, thanks for your posts in think I learned more from the last one each of you has made then I have in a long time.

+ 1, good stuff guys.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

FWIW, I got an email from one State Department DSS guy forwarding me a note from another, both of whom have direct experience with the region. The email boiled down to: "After reading Sean M’s post, and serving as an RSO overseas, I can truly say that SeanM’s post was one of the most accurate and intelligently written information on this subject."

Speaking for myself, I was glad to have my question answered about how the Libyan government responded to help protect and save the consulate (and the Americans inside).

As we flail about looking for someone to blame, let's not forget the people who actually planned and executed the attack. They're the bad guys here.

[bdcheung]

Sean and TGS, thanks for your posts in think I learned more from the last one each of you has made then I have in a long time.

+1. I greatly appreciate the time and effort each of you put in.

[TCinVA]

Someone told me that the embassy in Tunis has been breached. British and German embassies have been attacked as well.

[BaiHu]

Sean M/JHC/TGS and all of you:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really appreciate the time you all took to edumicate me on this matter. I also agree with Tam regarding the 'since when' question and as long as this topic is still warm and incredibly civil, can I re-awaken you Sean M from bowing out and others to fill us in on Tam's 'since when' and this article I found: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html ???

Thanks!

[TCinVA]

Not to speak for him, but Sean would probably tell you that press stories on matters like this are, at best, only going to have fragments of information but will fill in important gaps in the information with opinion that may be completely contradicted by information they don't have.

The press is a simple-minded lot. Often wrong, but rarely in doubt.

[BaiHu]

I agree with you there TC, a la Zimmerman, etc. But Obama did side with the rebels and aided him w/o declaring war or am I reading that wrong? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/01/us-usa-syria-obama-order-idUSBRE8701OK20120801

[ford.304]

Sean M/JHC/TGS and all of you:

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I really appreciate the time you all took to edumicate me on this matter. I also agree with Tam regarding the 'since when' question and as long as this topic is still warm and incredibly civil, can I re-awaken you Sean M from bowing out and others to fill us in on Tam's 'since when' and this article I found: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html ???

Thanks!

Given how nearly every attack like this has "evidence that they should have known" pop up shortly after, it makes me curious just how many leaks and warning and such they see on a daily basis that turn out to be nothing.

[TGS]

If ALQ is behind the planned ambush of our embassy staff in Libya, this might be a signal that the "inside baseball" story there is real tangible progress on our part and that the Libyans are making a sincere effort to partner with us toward that progress. Note how ALQ threw everything they had at stopping Iraq's efforts to re-build new. It's long been their strategy in the region to draw American blood so that a tired America and hopefully less than resolved President will withdraw. That's all over their doctrine.

Great point.

Take for instance Yemen. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) has been a major pain in the ass in Yemen. They're not just a pain in the ass for us, but the Yemeni government as well. As late as last year, AQAP was the defacto government in a lot of Yemen's territory. About June, Yemen declared that AQAP was defeated, and that Yemen is now in control as the primary government throughout the entire country. You can never actually eliminate such a decentralized organization such as a terrorist cell, just like a 5th Column organization of Communist partisans. You can only reduce them. But for Yemen to have actually finally gained control of their entire country was a huge step. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks, since if AQAP is going to make a resurgence then the events over the past couple days have definitely provided a good environment to do such. When Friday prayer gets out is when at least one intelligence analysis is thinking there's going to be a lot of trouble.

Remember, a lot of these terrorist organizations are NOT on good terms with a lot of the governments. They're enemies. Take a look at Syria.....a despot Asad might be, but remember that Islamic militants are attacking him as well. Hell, even terrorist organizations fight each other! You mentioned Iraq. Well, Iraq and Afghanistan had/have a lot of different factions besides Al-Qaeda involved in fighting us......as well as sometimes fighting themselves.

It's all very messy, but in a lot of places it comes down to governments not wanting Jihad Johnny in their rice bowl. We're not the only ones with a Islamic extremist problem.

[Tamara]

If I was Al Qaeda, and I wanted to get all agent provocateur-y and flashmob a bunch of people into the streets on 9/11 which I could then use as cover to lay down a hit on the American ambassador to Libya, how could I use social media to facilitate this? Hmmm... :confused:

[TGS]

If I was Al Qaeda, and I wanted to get all agent provocateur-y and flashmob a bunch of people into the streets on 9/11 which I could then use as cover to lay down a hit on the American ambassador to Libya, how could I use social media to facilitate this? Hmmm... :confused:

Social media has actually been a big push for our intelligence community, not just with terrorism but stateside criminal investigations as well. The War on Terror is just as much an information operation/education problem as it is anything else.

[LittleLebowski]

Social media has actually been a big push for our intelligence community, not just with terrorism but stateside criminal investigations as well. The War on Terror is just as much an information operation/education problem as it is anything else.

Turn key method of gathering data.

[JHC]

Take for instance Yemen. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) has been a major pain in the ass in Yemen. They're not just a pain in the ass for us, but the Yemeni government as well. As late as last year, AQAP was the defacto government in a lot of Yemen's territory. About June, Yemen declared that AQAP was defeated, and that Yemen is now in control as the primary government throughout the entire country. You can never actually eliminate such a decentralized organization such as a terrorist cell, just like a 5th Column organization of Communist partisans. You can only reduce them. But for Yemen to have actually finally gained control of their entire country was a huge step. We'll see what happens in the coming weeks, since if AQAP is going to make a resurgence then the events over the past couple days have definitely provided a good environment to do such. When Friday prayer gets out is when at least one intelligence analysis is thinking there's going to be a lot of trouble.

.

I missed all that. That is interesting on several levels. There is prob a couple of BA books that shouldn't be written about how all that was facilitated. ( a recent wink wink a few months back suddenly seems more significant than I took it to be at the time lol not firting)

[JHC]

On a macro policy/strategy level I think Krauthammer sums it up pretty well. So many ME experts have written of the concept of "the strong horse" in Arab matters I have accepted it's validity.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/09/13/krauthammer_were_seeing_the_collapse_of_the_obama_ policy_on_the_muslim_world.html

[NickA]

Turn key method of gathering data.

And sometimes just good clean fun, like when the Brits supposedly subbed a cake recipe for a bomb recipe on a jihadi website.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[TGS]

JHC,

Krauthammer wrote, "This entire premise that we want to be loved and respected, we'll apologize, has now yielded all of these results and these are the fruits of apology and retreat and lack of confidence in our own principles."

This little blurb from Blackfive.net (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/the-language-of-honor.html) kinda rolls with what Krauthammer is laying down with that. Not sure how accurate it is, I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff. Maybe SeanM will poke his head back in and make a comment.

[JHC]

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/and-now-the-other-shoe-drops.html#comments

There should be a cover up in full blown mode if this is credible. As many places as it's pouring from lately, I suspect it is.

[JHC]

JHC,

Krauthammer wrote, "This entire premise that we want to be loved and respected, we'll apologize, has now yielded all of these results and these are the fruits of apology and retreat and lack of confidence in our own principles."

This little blurb from Blackfive.net (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/09/the-language-of-honor.html) kinda rolls with what Krauthammer is laying down with that. Not sure how accurate it is, I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff. Maybe SeanM will poke his head back in and make a comment.

I try not to miss Grim's posts. This one from a few years ago was heavy.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/08/on_the_virtues_.html

[Odin Bravo One]

Any further comments on my end regarding this topic is likely to rabbit hole beyond what is for public consumption, hence my decision to bow out. Thanks.

[BaiHu]

Any further comments on my end regarding this topic is likely to rabbit hole beyond what is for public consumption, hence my decision to bow out. Thanks.

Completely understood and assumed. Thanks for your valuable input. I'll continue to stumble along unaided-lol!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JHC]

I think it was Brandon Webb of SOFREP yesterday writing he was hearing from sources of major movements of major assets by US and Euro forces around the region. The Telegraph has this out this afternoon/evening: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html

And I cannot remember when I may have read of this level of hostile disagreement from an ally. I may have; can't recall when. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-foreign-ministry-officials-say-u-s-ignored-arab-radicalization-1.465210

[TGS]

And I cannot remember when I may have read of this level of hostile disagreement from an ally. I may have; can't recall when. http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-foreign-ministry-officials-say-u-s-ignored-arab-radicalization-1.465210

Well, Obama hasn't really treated Israel like too much of an ally from the get go, so I can see why the criticism is so blunt. I can see the merit in their criticism, as well.

I want to say that Israel should be a great ally of the US, but their performance during the 2006 Lebanon War wasn't very....reassuring.....to want them by our side in a conflict.

Still, it sends a pretty strong message when Saudi Arabia is willing to team up with Israel against Iran. IIRC, the first and most significant buildup of the Saudi military was in 1949 in response to Israel, and they sent 3000 troops to fight against them under Syrian command in the '73 Yom Kippur War. Ditto UAE and Kuwait. So for them to go against Iran with Israel is pretty significant, and shows just how dangerous the Iranian leadership is.

[RoyGBiv]

Breitbart is reporting the video here to be that of a possible rescue attempt of Ambassador Stevens, by the citizens of Benghazi. It's hard to make out what is happening or when it occurred in the relative course of events. Even harder to determine whether the Ambassador (if it is in fact Mr. Stevens) is still alive in the 1 minute video.

Just another data point right now..

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/09/16/BREAKING-Video-Purports-To-Show-Ambassador-In-Libya


http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?freewheel=90085&sitesection=breitbart&VID=23813565

[RoyGBiv]

More people backing the story of a rescue attempt, and questioning why the Ambassador was left alone, and why there was no support (fire, ambulance) after the event.
http://news.yahoo.com/video-shows-libyans-trying-rescue-us-ambassador-194148880.html

Further reports that the attack was NOT spontaneous.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/17/obama-administration-libyan-president-clash-over-explanation-on-consulate/

[JHC]

It's since been published that former SEALs Doherty and Woods were not part of the ambassadors security detail. They had other US business there (in a background piece about Doherty last weekend someone who'd interviewed him recently said he was tracking missing MANPADS and when they'd find some they'd photograph them, log 'em and hammer them into unusable condition). They just joined the fight.

Then this bit: http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/20/world/anti-islam-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Hard to see how this wasn't just badly botched security and intel dissemination somewhere.

Some very experienced former intel people have stated that this Administration's shut down of aggressive interogation dramatically impairs our efforts. The HUMINT we have is badly dated and getting less and less useful with each passing month. Without much in the way of a fresh pipeline. Easy to kill (drones) than capture. Cleaner.

[TCinVA]

Further reports that the attack was NOT spontaneous.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/17/obama-administration-libyan-president-clash-over-explanation-on-consulate/

I believe the administration has finally admitted that it was indeed a planned terrorist attack.

They were desperate to keep the idea of a terrorist attack out of the news, apparently...as it might make their policies look silly. Not that their pet media figures would actually portray it as such.

[BaiHu]

Intel doesn't seem to be the problem. Maybe combing through the intel and picking the most 'believable' scenario was?? Or perhaps this is a Libyan CYA statement?

Snippet:

But President Megarif told the American station National Public Radio: "We firmly believe that this was a pre-calculated, pre-planned attack that was carried out specifically to attack the US Consulate. A few of those who joined in were foreigners who had entered Libya from different directions, some of them definitely from Mali and Algeria."

A senior official of the biggest militia in Benghazi, the February 17th Brigade, told CNN that he had warned US diplomats of a rapidly deteriorating security situation in Benghazi three days before the attack. "The situation is frightening, it scares us," he said he had stressed during the meeting. Mr Stevens had been back in Libya for only a short time before US security officials decided it would be safe to make the journey to Benghazi during the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. The British consulate in the city was shut after an ambush of a convoy carrying Dominic Asquith, the UK ambassador, in which his bodyguard were injured. The UN and International Committee of the Red Cross offices had been bombed and there had been a spate of political assassinations.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libya-we-gave-us-threeday-warning-of-benghazi-attack-8145242.html

[JHC]

Intel doesn't seem to be the problem. Maybe combing through the intel and picking the most 'believable' scenario was?? Or perhaps this is a Libyan CYA statement?

Snippet:

But President Megarif told the American station National Public Radio: "We firmly believe that this was a pre-calculated, pre-planned attack that was carried out specifically to attack the US Consulate. A few of those who joined in were foreigners who had entered Libya from different directions, some of them definitely from Mali and Algeria."

A senior official of the biggest militia in Benghazi, the February 17th Brigade, told CNN that he had warned US diplomats of a rapidly deteriorating security situation in Benghazi three days before the attack. "The situation is frightening, it scares us," he said he had stressed during the meeting. Mr Stevens had been back in Libya for only a short time before US security officials decided it would be safe to make the journey to Benghazi during the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. The British consulate in the city was shut after an ambush of a convoy carrying Dominic Asquith, the UK ambassador, in which his bodyguard were injured. The UN and International Committee of the Red Cross offices had been bombed and there had been a spate of political assassinations.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libya-we-gave-us-threeday-warning-of-benghazi-attack-8145242.html

I'm just an a#$hole with an opinion on this but . . . I think 2002-2008 era level of CIA interogation can narrow things down from deteriorating conditions to uncovering specific plots which can then be disrupted. Which by most accounts did happen multiple times in that period. That's the level I was thinking of. Can't prove a negative so we'll never know now. I was just certain back in 2009 that Obama's policy on the CIA interogation topic would get people killed. I've no doubt of that.

[BaiHu]

Development? Or just a pissing match?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpolitics/hillary-clinton-aide-tells-reporter-to-fuck-off

[RoyGBiv]

Development? Or just a pissing match?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpolitics/hillary-clinton-aide-tells-reporter-to-fuck-off

The real story is buried 1 layer down from that one..
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mhastings/libya-threatens-clintons-legacy-and-stat

Ambassador Christopher Stevens’ diary. The diary helped confirm, as the network [CNN] reported, that Stevens had been worried about the threat of an Al Qaeda attack, and even feared his own name was included on a hit list.

The blockbuster news contradicted the line the State Department and the administration had been pushing since the horrible tragedy took place almost two weeks ago: that there was no intelligence of a coming attack. In fact, the Ambassador himself was aware of a persistent high level threat against him.

“Perhaps the real question here,” CNN responded to the State Department criticism, “Is why is the State Department now attacking the messenger.”
..............
the fiasco appears to be largely — if not entirely — a State Department botch. It was the State Department that failed to provide its ambassador adequate security; it was the State Department that fled Benghazi in the aftermath of the attack, apparently failing to clear or secure the scene, leaving Stevens' diary behind; and it was State that had taken the lead on the ground after the Libya intervention.

[TGS]

I wouldn't read too much into politically-motivated/oriented yellow journalism.

"Persistent high level threat" is a looooooooong way off from knowing who, what, when, where, why, how. There is a persistent high level threat for American officials in many countries. That doesn't mean those officials will know when, where or how an attack is going to occur. It means exactly what those words are, "persistent high level threat." Take for instance Sean Smith. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he had written to his gaming clan members a few times about the dangers of his living in Libya, and stuff like "not sure we'll make it through tonight." That's representative of a persistently high level of threat. Knowing there's a persistent high level of threat does not imply that you know who/what/where/when/why/how of a specific attack.

As for Ambassador Stevens fearing he was on a hit list, no shit. He's a high level American official. Surprised?

As for it being a State Department botch, here you've got even more claims without any support or understanding of how the institution functions. As has already been said in this thread, the Head of Mission (Ambassador) is responsible for security of the diplomatic mission in country. Unless someone has documents showing that higher up refused the security manpower/material that Ambassador Stevens requested due to the "persistent high level of threat," then the only person responsible for a lack of security is him. Not the administration, or some ambiguous "State Department" statement. He is the State Department. He was the highest level American official in that country, and the responsibility rests on him unless you've got proof of higher levels of the US government counteracting his security plans. I'm not saying this to hurt the image of Ambassador Stevens.....I'm pointing out where the responsibility rests in the institution.

As for this statement, "it was the State Department that fled Benghazi in the aftermath of the attack, apparently failing to clear or secure the scene, leaving Stevens' diary behind; and it was State that had taken the lead on the ground after the Libya intervention." Well, no, really? It was the State Department? Imagine that. What did anyone expect it to be, the Teletubbies Fanclub of Wisconsin? Who else is suppose to be responsible or involved? It's the State Departments' purpose of existence to "take the lead on the ground after the Libya intervention." How is this a bad thing? This makes about as much sense as throwing in at the end, "In addition, the correspondence proves that the sky was blue on the day of the attack." What the hell should that mean? Nothing. It's a literary device; lumping incongruous topics at the end of a rant to play on emotionally motivated attitudes and create a negative connotation with such topics, simply because the rest of the rant is negative in outlook.

This article makes no sense. It's pure yellow journalism with severely diminished legitimacy.

[TCinVA]

People have fragments of the story that serve their interests and they're waving them around and yelling. I think it's clear the administration tried a weaksauce jedi mind trick believing that the idea of admitting a terrorist attack happened on 9/11/12 would be bad for the president's prospects of reelection...but it doesn't automatically follow that the incident itself is somehow the administration's fault in a specific sense. When we're combing through a powerful US official's diary looking to make a story it seems to stretch the limits of credibility.

If the Ambassador was concerned about security, I'm sure he had options to increase it within DOS. If he made such requests and was overruled by administration officials, there'd probably be at least rumors of official documents showing exactly that rather than diary entries.

There's plenty to cover in this attack, the handling of it, and response to it without needing to stretch things, IMO.

I referred to Bush Derangement Syndrome when wild accusations were made against Bush II. I think it's fair to say there is an Obama Derangement Syndrome evident in some of this stuff. A set of "facts" which can mean several things is stretched into a nefarious plot when one does not exist as long as it fits a narrative that's considered useful. I'm all for getting the present occupant started on his retirement as soon as possible, but I'd rather not resort to mob-based hysterics in the effort to do that, you know?

[BaiHu]

I posted this article, b/c I didn't/couldn't make enough sense of it, which is why I said 'Development?'.

That being said, I think TC hits the nail on the head with the weaksauce Jedi mind trick.

If there wasn't such a tactic being used by the administration, then there wouldn't be so much speculation as to just how deep does this would be conspiracy go.

Politicians, if anything, are experts at being short-sighted.

[TGS]

If there wasn't such a tactic being used by the administration, then there wouldn't be so much speculation as to just how deep does this would be conspiracy go.

I'm going to steal something that TC has said before: "Never attribute to government conspiracy which can be first explained by stupidity." Rather than any jedi mind tricks, I'm instead going to put my money on the Obama administrations handling of the situation being more due to shock and a "deer in the headlights" effect from being bitch-slapped by reality and realizing these were the culminating events in the failure of our foreign policy. Just look at the responses given in the immediate aftermatch of the attack from varying levels of the US government; they were confused....contradicting. There was no public "immediate action" drill for this sort of thing. No one knew how to address it publicly because the Administration didn't plan for it. I'd say how the administration has publicly handled it has more to do with that rather than any games trying to play on it. That's about as far into the political side of things I care to go.

Websites like the one linked to would be making everything into a condemnation of Obama and conspiracies no matter what. This sort of political "commentary" is political mongering. The linked piece has nothing to do with understanding the events of 9/11/2012, and everything to do with creating a political commentary pissing match. I highly doubt that the same website or similar (The Blaze) will ever be for any other purpose than political mongering and in the purest fashion of yellow journalism. These websites serve no purpose in the life of pragmatic men except to remind themselves how far off the deep end both political parties are (which the linked articles certainly have done for me).

[BaiHu]

TGS,

I agree with your points and perhaps my sarcasm didn't come across. I was trying to point out that once the 'deer in the headlights' act began, the Jedi mind trick game followed, b/c they couldn't be seen as weak or too strong. Then the media smells STORY and the conspiracy soup is brewed.

Personally, I think most politicians are short-sighted, amoral sycophants that only vote and act accordingly. That being said, everyone involved here is equally guilty, I'm just more concerned about the poor guys who have to stand up and take a bullet for these a*%h0les.

[TGS]

I'm just an a#$hole with an opinion on this but . . . I think 2002-2008 era level of CIA interogation can narrow things down from deteriorating conditions to uncovering specific plots which can then be disrupted. Which by most accounts did happen multiple times in that period. That's the level I was thinking of. Can't prove a negative so we'll never know now. I was just certain back in 2009 that Obama's policy on the CIA interogation topic would get people killed. I've no doubt of that.

I missed this comment before.

What do you mean by 2002-2008 era vs the Obama policy? Do you mean violence, fear, humiliation vs psychology?

[JHC]

I missed this comment before.

What do you mean by 2002-2008 era vs the Obama policy? Do you mean violence, fear, humiliation vs psychology?

During that earlier period the CIA enhanced interogation program was in place. Obama made quite a show of shutting that down and exploring criminal charges against CIA staff.

[JHC]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/09/28/29-Sep-12-World-View-Aftermath-of-Libyan-military-action-sees-big-increase-in-al-Qaeda-activity-in-Africa

The gist of which is our plan to take out a particularly bad actor was compromised and said bad actor struck first. That would put quite an odd twist on things if so.

[TGS]

I don't know if I'd blame the change from torture for this, or really any widespread lack of intelligence.

From what I understand, the movement away from enhanced interrogation techniques was led from the inside, not by Obama. Of course it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but Matthew Alexander's book "How to Break a Terrorist" outlines this stuff starting with his 2006 deployment to Iraq. Deception can work a lot better on the more intelligent terrorist cell leaders than fear, humiliation and violence can. The latter simply confirms their beliefs about America and strengthens their resolve in their motivations, whereas playing mind games bypasses these motivations (religious zeal, hatred, ect) by creating a back door and playing off of other motivations and creating a psychological reciprocation behavior. This was the case with Imam Zaydan, as the Imam believed his family was in danger. It's a pretty simple motivation to play on.....ensure the safety of his family and you've just bypassed his motivations of hatred for America. Zaydan then felt compelled to help Alexander to some degree, as he had created a rapport, trust, ect.......almost like Stockholm Syndrome. He goes over a bunch of these interrogations in his book.

While in the service I had the fortunate (yet scary) experience of sitting in on a seminar with a spook that worked this stuff. He looked like a hipster reluctantly working in the IT field, which was probably the first weapon of influence he used on us. Scary dude. Within minutes he had "broken" everyone in the room and completely mindf*c*ed us. When it sunk in how much influence this guy exerted on us and how much of a puppet we felt like, peoples' faces went pale white and guys were in complete disbelief and shock....speechless. I want to refrain from mirror imaging our experience onto our enemy, but it made me a believer that there are way better interrogation methods for truly motivated persons than coercion by force.

I mentioned Alexanders' book and that it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.....obviously, as he could just be motivated to paint himself as the savior of HUMINT. If you take what he's laying down in the book and compare it to the principles of influence and deception from other sources (including other endeavors, such as business) it all matches up well.

[RoyGBiv]

.....

[JHC]

The former head of this CIA interogation program published his book earlier this year. Horses mouth. It wasn't torture so that part is no problem. There was extensive amounts of critical intelligence gathered by that program and waterboarding was a small part of it. They stopped a 2nd airliner attack on the West Coast. They learned of "the courier" that led to tracking down OBL. It was legit.

Obama very publically took the CIA out of the interogation of prisoners role and turned it over to the FBI with all the US LE legal niceties. Notice they are supposedly investigating the Stevens hit from afar. Total disaster.

[TGS]

The former head of this CIA interogation program published his book earlier this year. Horses mouth.

And I just gave examples from the horses mouth on the "newer" methods and how they're more effective. Hmm. That grain of salt thing. This is why it's important to review other material pertaining to the same principles instead of going off one source.

As for water-boarding being the key that found Bin Laden's courier......that's a half truth. His family name was uncovered by other sources, and his location/full name was gained from SIGINT by the NSA. The information that Bin Laden had a courier working for him was provided by multiple other sources than the ones who were water-boarded, as well. Water-boarding is not the reason we were able to influence Bin Laden's courier.


It wasn't torture so that part is no problem.

That's most certainly debatable.


Obama very publically took the CIA out of the interogation of prisoners role and turned it over to the FBI with all the US LE legal niceties. Notice they are supposedly investigating the Stevens hit from afar. Total disaster.

The FBI has a responsibility in the investigation of his murder. It's nothing abnormal, and IIRC the FBI has held that responsibility for a while now.

[JHC]

CIA rocked the interogations. They were put out of that business by Obama. Big mistake.

[TGS]

CIA rocked the interogations. They were put out of that business by Obama. Big mistake.

Do you have any other references than the book written by the guy who lead the charge with enhanced interrogation techniques?

Right now I'm reading a pretty damning article that notes the level of mission accomplishment is inversely proportional to the use of enhanced interrogation techniques at prison facilities in Iraq.....while the level of misconduct/homocide/prisoner escapes being directly proportional to the use of enhanced interrogation. In short, enhanced interrogation=more mission failure, higher amounts of misconduct.......not to mention general poor professionalism all around (medical care, cleanliness, ect)*

*Major Pryer, Douglas A. 2010. "At What Cost, Intelligence?". Military Review, Special Edition (September): 94-109.

[Jason F]

Do you have any other references than the book written by the guy who lead the charge with enhanced interrogation techniques?

Right now I'm reading a pretty damning article that notes the level of mission accomplishment is inversely proportional to the use of enhanced interrogation techniques at prison facilities in Iraq.....while the level of misconduct/homocide/prisoner escapes being directly proportional to the use of enhanced interrogation. In short, enhanced interrogation=more mission failure, higher amounts of misconduct.......not to mention general poor professionalism all around (medical care, cleanliness, ect)*

*Major Pryer, Douglas A. 2010. "At What Cost, Intelligence?". Military Review, Special Edition (September): 94-109.

Got a link? Sounds like interesting reading...

[TGS]

Got a link? Sounds like interesting reading...

(nerd alert) Not unless you have access to JSTOR/LexisNexis/Ebsco research libraries. I can send you a .pdf file though if you PM me your email.

[Mjolnir]

A version of the story that seems to be slowly gaining traction is that the consulate was the location of those in the State Dept who controlled the Al Qaeda elements that overran Libya. If so, it may explain the oddities associated with events.

[fuse]

I don't know if I'd blame the change from torture for this, or really any widespread lack of intelligence.

From what I understand, the movement away from enhanced interrogation techniques was led from the inside, not by Obama. Of course it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but Matthew Alexander's book "How to Break a Terrorist" outlines this stuff starting with his 2006 deployment to Iraq. Deception can work a lot better on the more intelligent terrorist cell leaders than fear, humiliation and violence can. The latter simply confirms their beliefs about America and strengthens their resolve in their motivations, whereas playing mind games bypasses these motivations (religious zeal, hatred, ect) by creating a back door and playing off of other motivations and creating a psychological reciprocation behavior. This was the case with Imam Zaydan, as the Imam believed his family was in danger. It's a pretty simple motivation to play on.....ensure the safety of his family and you've just bypassed his motivations of hatred for America. Zaydan then felt compelled to help Alexander to some degree, as he had created a rapport, trust, ect.......almost like Stockholm Syndrome. He goes over a bunch of these interrogations in his book.

While in the service I had the fortunate (yet scary) experience of sitting in on a seminar with a spook that worked this stuff. He looked like a hipster reluctantly working in the IT field, which was probably the first weapon of influence he used on us. Scary dude. Within minutes he had "broken" everyone in the room and completely mindf*c*ed us. When it sunk in how much influence this guy exerted on us and how much of a puppet we felt like, peoples' faces went pale white and guys were in complete disbelief and shock....speechless. I want to refrain from mirror imaging our experience onto our enemy, but it made me a believer that there are way better interrogation methods for truly motivated persons than coercion by force.

I mentioned Alexanders' book and that it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.....obviously, as he could just be motivated to paint himself as the savior of HUMINT. If you take what he's laying down in the book and compare it to the principles of influence and deception from other sources (including other endeavors, such as business) it all matches up well.

Really cool post

[BaiHu]

http://www.jammiewf.com/2012/cnn-none-of-our-sources-corroborate-obamas-false-libya-story/

[RoyGBiv]

http://www.jammiewf.com/2012/cnn-none-of-our-sources-corroborate-obamas-false-libya-story/

Obama's hit-squad picking on CNN for using Steven's journal was a HUGE mistake. All they accomplished was 1. Bring more attention to the contents of the journal and 2. Piss off CNN, who then became much more balanced in their assessment of the administrations actions.

[BaiHu]

more:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100183452/did-the-white-house-order-a-cover-up-over-the-murder-of-libyas-us-ambassador/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/house-committee-security-requests-denied-libya

[BaiHu]

Wow! Even Jon Stewart's banging the administration on this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-october-1-2012/american-terror-story

[BaiHu]

So who didn't know about this:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/10/benghazi/

[Odin Bravo One]

I get it that people are pissed off or upset or whatever you want to call it about this incident, and want to hang someone from a yard arm.

But you are not, and will not EVER get the full, or even correct story from the media or your government, and speculation about intelligence matters based off of books written to make money won't paint any clearer picture.

[BaiHu]

I get it that people are pissed off or upset or whatever you want to call it about this incident, and want to hang someone from a yard arm.

But you are not, and will not EVER get the full, or even correct story from the media or your government, and speculation about intelligence matters based off of books written to make money won't paint any clearer picture.

I love when you respond. Thanks for weighing in.

In the end, I guess it's a perpetual 3 card monte game between govt, intelligence and the media and the populace always loses :banghead:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JDM]

Does the Navy still hang people from yard arms? :p

[Odin Bravo One]

Probably not.

But since I just last week learned what one was........I wanted to use the term in a sentence. Especially since it's been like what? 15 years since that movie came out?

[BaiHu]

More tidbits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UpFddp51Go&feature=player_embedded

[BaiHu]

Another couple pieces of news:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/10/kelly-libya-security-cut-while-vienna-embassy-gain/?page=all#pagebreak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjO3_QWWgG8&feature=player_embedded

[John Ralston]

And...the lies begin to surface

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/09/libya-consulate-attack-protests_n_1953057.html?ncid=webmail1&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

[TCinVA]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/10/10/Former-Libyan-Security-Official-State-Department-Told-Us-To-Stop-Asking-For-More-Security

If true...

[Kyle Reese]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/10/10/Former-Libyan-Security-Official-State-Department-Told-Us-To-Stop-Asking-For-More-Security

If true...

Yup.... However, without sounding too cynical, it's football season back home, and the election is around the corner. Alot of this stuff doesn't even register for many folks.

[BaiHu]

I posted that same video from Breitbart before, but here's a lil' interesting google-fu search I did:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/156215.pdf

The 'staff by post' section starts on page 75. Look at the difference of staff b/w places like Vienna and New Delhi vs Libya. Then look at Libya versus Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia. Libya was already considered a tier 3 country (subject to sanctions for example http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2011/164221.htm) and admittedly, Tripoli had 10x the staff as Benghazi.

[ToddG]

Obama's 2012 campaign slogan: What happens in Libya, stays in Libya.

[BaiHu]

Obama's 2012 campaign slogan: What happens in Libya, stays in Libya.

Ouch!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[TGS]

Well, it's been asked over and over again, "Who is responsible?"

I highly suggest watching the hearing on CSPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Events/C-SPAN-Event/10737434835/). It's pretty obvious, with the former RSO and SST commander burning Charlene Lamb (http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/10/lamb_to_the_slaughter) at the stake (as much as a hearing could). Again, I'm going to attribute this to stupidity, not conspiracy.

[JHC]

Well, it's been asked over and over again, "Who is responsible?"

I highly suggest watching the hearing on CSPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Events/C-SPAN-Event/10737434835/). It's pretty obvious, with the former RSO and SST commander burning Charlene Lamb (http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/10/lamb_to_the_slaughter) at the stake (as much as a hearing could). Again, I'm going to attribute this to stupidity, not conspiracy.

The errors in security resources; sure stupidity. And maybe some peacenik agenda of not looking too security heavy as Brandon Webb keeps emphasizing on his blog (one can have much better security without a tank battalion for crissakes). But on the cover up since - stupidity doesn't explain that part.

[ToddG]

Agreed. It's one thing to say "we didn't do enough" or "we didn't have information leading us to believe the threat was credible enough to yadda yadda yadda." But to pretend there was no threat in an attempt to avoid looking like the GWOT is still alive and well (right before the election) is the kind of thing you'd only expect from an administration that purposely seeded half of Mexico with illegal guns to cause a media storm of fury about... hey wait a minute!

[Odin Bravo One]

Forgot I had exited this topic.

[JHC]

That's not a source I would cite all that often for an expert assessment. Especially as it pertains to the Libya incident. 1 combat deployment over a decade ago does not an expert make.

I'm picking up on that. He has been making the recurring point that sounds like for diplomatic reasons they can't be too security heavy without any definitions, hence my sarcasm about armor. Thx.

[Odin Bravo One]

........

[JHC]

To my earlier point about motives for denying requests for upgraded security resources: "Twice the man in charge of security for our diplomats in Libya, Greg Nordstrom, begged the State Department for more security in Benghazi after no less than 48 security “incidents” there, including two bombings.

Washington, however, said no. Hillary Clinton wanted to preserve the illusion that all was fine in Libya, especially on the eve of the November election. She had her minion Charlene Lee, assistant head of international programs, tell Nordstrom that State wanted “to normalize operations” in Libya and to “reduce security resources.”


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/11/hillary-sinking-ship/#ixzz295dLMQoy

[RoyGBiv]

Ryan made a powerful point, IMO, when he said last night (paraphrasing) that the US Ambassador to France has a Marine detachment assigned to him in Paris, but the US Ambassador to Libya did not.

[TGS]

Ryan made a powerful point, IMO, when he said last night (paraphrasing) that the US Ambassador to France has a Marine detachment assigned to him in Paris, but the US Ambassador to Libya did not.

As was stated earlier in the thread, many embassies do not have an MSG detachment, because they're not assigned to an ambassador's security detail, they're assigned to the embassy facility and classified material itself. The primary purpose of MSG is to safeguard sensitive and classified material, not personnel. Thus, not all embassies rate an MSG detachment. Even less consulates rate an MSG detachment than embassies. Many MSG detachments are just a few guys, as well.....more like an understrength squad, not a platoon, so it's hardly the case that having an MSG detachment would have made a significant security difference.

The protection of the diplomatic personnel themselves are Special Agents and Security Protective Specialists from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security.....or whoever DOS decides to contract out. It's quite clear from the congressional hearings what personnel were in place for the security of the diplomatic personnel. Up until April, they had 16 SF guys, as well as 18 Special Agents from DS's MSD. While he wanted more resources, and to at least keep what he had, at no point did I hear the former RSO mention they needed an MSG detachment, because it's not the appropriate resource for the mission at hand. The hearings quite clearly explained the allocation of security personnel and what went wrong.

From talking to friends who do this stuff as their job, security is not bolstered by adding MSGs. Security is increased with more DS personnel, either temporary or permanent, and more host nation security. Or, as was here, a contingent of military personnel.

Unless I'm sorely mistaken and missing something, the lack of MSG's has no relevance here. It's just an excerpt of political bullshit, and barking up the wrong tree. The reason they were overrun is not because there weren't MSGs present.

[JHC]

As was stated earlier in the thread, many embassies do not have an MSG detachment, because they're not assigned to an ambassador's security detail, they're assigned to the embassy facility and classified material itself. The primary purpose of MSG is to safeguard sensitive and classified material, not personnel. Thus, not all embassies rate an MSG detachment. Even less consulates rate an MSG detachment than embassies. Many MSG detachments are just a few guys, as well.....more like an understrength squad, not a platoon, so it's hardly the case that having an MSG detachment would have made a significant security difference.

The protection of the diplomatic personnel themselves are Special Agents and Security Protective Specialists from the Bureau of Diplomatic Security.....or whoever DOS decides to contract out. It's quite clear from the congressional hearings what personnel were in place for the security of the diplomatic personnel. Up until April, they had 16 SF guys, as well as 18 Special Agents from DS's MSD. While he wanted more resources, and to at least keep what he had, at no point did I hear the former RSO mention they needed an MSG detachment, because it's not the appropriate resource for the mission at hand. The hearings quite clearly explained the allocation of security personnel and what went wrong.

From talking to friends who do this stuff as their job, security is not bolstered by adding MSGs. Security is increased with more DS personnel, either temporary or permanent, and more host nation security. Or, as was here, a contingent of military personnel.

Unless I'm sorely mistaken and missing something, the lack of MSG's has no relevance here. It's just an excerpt of political bullshit, and barking up the wrong tree. The reason they were overrun is not because there weren't MSGs present.

True, last night Ryan mispoke, was mis-briefed or whatever when he referred to the diplomatic mission in Libya missing their protective Marine contingent. As pols speak however his point was the larger one that they'd requested additional security assets repeatedly and had been denied them.

This week before the Congressional hearing, the State official was asked flat out if budgetary constraints were the reason the additional security was denied and she answered flatly "No". It appears DSS and DoS professionals have a belly full of the political machinations surrounding the murder of their colleagues and their testimony was pretty straightforward.

[BaiHu]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/01/the-intel-behind-obama-s-libya-line.html

"The intelligence that helped inform those talking points—and what the U.S. public would ultimately be told—came in part from an intercept of a phone call between one of the alleged attackers and a middle manager from al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), the group’s north African affiliate, according to U.S. officials familiar with the intercept. In the call, the alleged attacker said the locals went forward with the attack only after watching the riots that same day at the U.S. embassy in Cairo.
However, the intercept was one of several monitored communications during and after the attacks between members of a local militia called Ansar al-Sharia and AQIM, which, taken together, suggest the assault was in fact a premeditated terrorist attack, according to U.S. intelligence and counter-terrorism officials not authorized to talk to the press.

In one of the calls, for example, members of Ansar al-Sharia bragged about their successful attack against the American consulate and the U.S. ambassador.

It’s unclear why the talking points said the attacks were spontaneous and why they didn’t mention the possibility of al Qaeda involvement, given the content of the intercepts and the organizations the speakers were affiliated with. One U.S. intelligence officer said the widely distributed assessment was an example of “cherry picking,” or choosing one piece of intelligence and ignoring other pieces, to support a preferred thesis."

[RoyGBiv]

Given Biden's "we weren't told" statements last night, and today's WH "clarification" that Biden's comments were referring only to himself and the President, it would seem they (POTUS and VPOTUS) are preparing to dump the blame for Mr. Obamas' obfuscation on Mrs. Clintons' doorstep.

So this then begs the question... What did Mrs. Clinton know and when?

Did she know this was a terrorist attack within 24 hours.? The Intelligence Director made clear that HE knew in this time frame.
If she did know, what did she tell the WH?
If she did know, why send Ms Rice on Sunday rounds blaming the video?
If she did know, and all the obfuscation was done over her objections, that would start to explain her absence from the media these past few weeks.

If she did not know, WHY NOT?
If she did know, will she be willing to take the fall anyways?

[ToddG]

If she did know, will she be willing to take the fall anyways?

I LOL'd.

[Zhurdan]

Given Biden's "we weren't told" statements last night, and today's WH "clarification" that Biden's comments were referring only to himself and the President, it would seem they (POTUS and VPOTUS) are preparing to dump the blame for Mr. Obamas' obfuscation on Mrs. Clintons' doorstep.

So this then begs the question... What did Mrs. Clinton know and when?

Did she know this was a terrorist attack within 24 hours.? The Intelligence Director made clear that HE knew in this time frame.
If she did know, what did she tell the WH?
If she did know, why send Ms Rice on Sunday rounds blaming the video?
If she did know, and all the obfuscation was done over her objections, that would start to explain her absence from the media these past few weeks.

If she did not know, WHY NOT?
If she did know, will she be willing to take the fall anyways?


Nahh, she'll get accused of having an affair in her office, a nice blue shirt will show up and the media and the American people will be totally enthralled with the scandal and forget about the other stuff.

[RoyGBiv]

I LOL'd.

I shoulda used the :rolleyes:

Interesting discussion about exactly this topic on Cavuto this morning.
Dick Morris rolled his eyes too, said fat chance either Clinton will stand by idly and allow Mrs. Clinton to take the fall for this.

[RoyGBiv]

WWTCD (What Will The Clinton's Do)?


the professionals at State are starting to abandon the Hillary ship. Wood and Nordstrom have provided a version of events that explicitly contradicts the Hillary version of what happened. That wouldn’t happen unless they and others weren’t fed up with taking the fall for their boss, and being associated with a dangerous and epic lie.

So don’t expect the administration’s latest story that the video story was the result of an “intelligence failure,” to help save Hillary. That’ll only arouse more ire inside the CIA and other intelligence agencies, along with State.

The only possible conclusion is that, in order to preserve the fiction that the Obama policy in Libya was working, Hillary Clinton was willing to put the life of our ambassador at mortal risk, and afterwards deliberately misdirected our attention away from a genuine lethal threat to our security, Al Qaeda, toward a fake one, an online video.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/11/hillary-sinking-ship/

[RoyGBiv]

Mrs Clinton has just accepted "full responsibility" for the attacks in Benghazi.

Still explains nothing about who knew what, when.

If I'm Romney, I'm calling Obama a dishonorable chicken shit tomorrow night. Because he is.

ETA: http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/15/us/clinton-benghazi/index.html
Worth noting that she is "taking responsibility" for the Security Failure, not the administrations' feeble attempt at coverup and obfuscation regarding who knew what, when.

[TCinVA]

When someone in Washington takes "full responsibility" look for the angle. I suspect it's Hillary trying to look presidential by owning up to it (in the most non-consequential way imaginable, of course...) and simultaneously trying to bury the issue.

It's an attempt at a jedi mind trick.

[RoyGBiv]

It's an attempt at a jedi mind trick.
Quick/cheesy attempt.. It's late.. :D

http://imageshack.us/a/img717/1412/yodillary.png

[TCinVA]

So feeling nostalgic, I looked back over various threads on this incident and the information that has come out since.

It's absolutely clear at this point that the administration ignored repeated requests for increased security in Lybia to the frustration and ultimately the demise of people on the ground.

A well coordinated terrorist attack tool place. It was clear to the administration that this was a planned attack by Al Quaeda figures within 24 hours of events. Nevertheless, the administration went on tv and to the UN and blamed a YouTube video for demonstrations that got out if hand.

They lied about the attack while people who planned it were bragging about it.

Now administrations have done some nonsense to CYA before, but going to the UN and lying about a terrorist attack against our representative? Attempting to cover up a growing Al Quaeda presence in Lybia?

This is a new low.

The decisions to not take security seriously despite knowledge that Benghazi was becoming an AQ stronghold can be explained as the results of giving liberals power. Liberalism is a system based on faith rather than fact, so disaster is the predictable result of that.

The actions of the administration in the aftermath of the attack, however, cannot be explained by mere stupidity. Politics has always had spin, but this current lot is trying to warp the very fabric of reality.

...and this is only what we know about because we have dead bodies. How much stuff don't we know yet?

[JHC]

This is a new low.



+1

[Chemsoldier]

So with the official Benghazi story now being a coordinated and planned terrorist attack instead of a spontaneous outbreak of deadly violence based on a Youtube video...does this mean all the articles and postings throughout the interwebs that this event proves Islam is intrinsically violent and savage are now proven untrue?

Either a small number of people plotted an attack (a cold blooded event no matter their motivation) or a spontaneous violent event occurred carried out by evil muslims driven mad by their savagery and dark age religion. Cant have it both ways.

[TCinVA]

So with the official Benghazi story now being a coordinated and planned terrorist attack instead of a spontaneous outbreak of deadly violence based on a Youtube video...does this mean all the articles and postings throughout the interwebs that this event proves Islam is intrinsically violent and savage are now proven untrue?

Either a small number of people plotted an attack (a cold blooded event no matter their motivation) or a spontaneous violent event occurred carried out by evil muslims driven mad by their savagery and dark age religion. Cant have it both ways.

The official story coming from the political leaders blamed a spontaneous violent event.

...and whether anyone likes to admit it or not, it sounded plausible because there have been plenty of other spontaneous violent events in response to perceived slights against islam.

[Chemsoldier]

The official story coming from the political leaders blamed a spontaneous violent event.

...and whether anyone likes to admit it or not, it sounded plausible because there have been plenty of other spontaneous violent events in response to perceived slights against islam.

No doubt. Islam seems to sprout radicals like a rain sprouts mushrooms. But the anger of the average Muslim rarely kills diplomats, they protest a lot but so do Korean university students. I am speaking to the roughly coherent feelings that many people were giving voice to in the opening days of this issue. Not neccesarily on this forum either. Calls to "bomb them" without saying who, all Muslims are savages, claims that they Benghazi incident was indicative of all Muslims, etc. This is obviously not the case. The Benghazi attack was a complex attack carried out by terrorists who had been planning for some time.

I would be interested in how many radical violent groups the US would sprout if our various instruments of law enforcement were not so good at finding and catching them? From the mid-30s on we have gotten really good at not letting violent criminals build up too much experience. I wonder how far the Weather Underground, the Barker gang or some of our political and religious radicals could have gotten if we had a security apparatus as poor as that of most third world nations? Our combination of investigative resources, willingness to give long prison sentances (till the political issues they espoused fade from vogue) and willingness to lay the scunnion down (we would escalate endlessly to maintain order, unlike Mexico) makes the criminal/terrorist careers of organized groups fairly short. So we see "lone wolf" style attacks periodically of individuals or even groups that assemble for a single operation, but coherent groups have a hard time staying together in the US and Europe. Even in the mid-east, AQ central has minimal control and direction over its affiliates like Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Pennisnsula (AQAP) and Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). The old days of central direction, training and resourcing is greatly diminished.

I am not claiming the US would be "just as bad" or anything of the sort (because it would not be), it is just interesting how our institutions and other nation's lack of them effects the development of violent actors.

[TCinVA]

...so instead of inside 24 hours, it now appears that the White House was watching the events transpire in real time.

Never attribute to conspiracy those things which can be easily explained by stupidity....but it's clear this isn't merely stupidity.

[Chemsoldier]

...so instead of inside 24 hours, it now appears that the White House was watching the events transpire in real time.

Never attribute to conspiracy those things which can be easily explained by stupidity....but it's clear this isn't merely stupidity.


When CNN is carrying the story as lead that the adminsitration knew within hours...the foreign policy bubble has been decisively popped. Any money Obama made on Monday on the foreign policy front. I think he was counting on some foreign policy chops since the economy hasnt improved.

To risk hyperbole, Benghazi might be Obama's Desert One.

[LittleLebowski]

To risk hyperbole, Benghazi might be Obama's Desert One.

Front page news on CNN and Foxnews. NBC News/MSNBC? Not so much.

[Kyle Reese]

Front page news on CNN and Foxnews. NBC News/MSNBC? Not so much.

Both of those outlets would have been right at home in Stalin's CCCP.

[Chemsoldier]

...and of course CNN has already pushed it way down their list of stories. Buried by everyone but conservative media.

[BaiHu]

It gets uglier:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/22/cia-installation-hit-in-libya-terror-attack/

Form your own conclusions. I know what I mine are now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[BaiHu]

And uglier. Truly despicable really:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/10/26/cia-operators-were-denied-request-for-help-during-benghazi-attack-sources-say//

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[TCinVA]

This is worse than a dead ambassador. It's a national security goat rodeo of epic proportions and the whole world is looking at it realizing (if they didn't already know) that the civilians we placed in control of our national security are asleep at the damn wheel.

Our dalliance with this feckless yahoo and his administration full of dumbasses will cost us blood down the road. Lots of blood. This is just the first installment.

[JM Campbell]

This is worse than a dead ambassador. It's a national security goat rodeo of epic proportions and the whole world is looking at it realizing (if they didn't already know) that the civilians we placed in control of our national security are asleep at the damn wheel.

Our dalliance with this feckless yahoo and his administration full of dumbasses will cost us blood down the road. Lots of blood. This is just the first installment.

Agree 100%

This administration is doing an outstanding job disgracing the dead and cementing the future deaths due to inaction and misinformation /lying.

[BaiHu]

Apparently we had AC-130Us there already:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/10/26/ac-130u-gunship-was-on-scene-in-benghazi-obama-admin-refused-to-let-it-fire/?singlepage=true

[RoyGBiv]

This is worse than a dead ambassador. It's a national security goat rodeo of epic proportions and the whole world is looking at it realizing (if they didn't already know) that the civilians we placed in control of our national security are asleep at the damn wheel.

Our dalliance with this feckless yahoo and his administration full of dumbasses will cost us blood down the road. Lots of blood. This is just the first installment.


Apparently we had AC-130Us there already:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/10/26/ac-130u-gunship-was-on-scene-in-benghazi-obama-admin-refused-to-let-it-fire/?singlepage=true


torches-and-pitchforks irate
Understatement. :mad:

[LOKNLOD]

Obama/Biden 2012: "We got Bin Laden, and Ambassador Stevens"

[RoyGBiv]

Some interesting thought posted here yesterday, especially interesting in light of the new facts revealed today..

http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/bracken-obama-was-asleep/


what the military cannot do on their own say-so is cross an international border without an order from the NCA, the National Command Authority, and that means POTUS, Obama.

Only POTUS can authorize a cross-border hostile mission.

Only one man can pull that trigger and say, “GO!” Obama.
................
no General or Admiral will order the Marines ashore, or a Delta raid or even an F-18 or F-16 low-level supersonic flyby. They can not and will not cross a border without a clear-cut order from POTUS via the NCA. Not even Hillary can make that decision. Only Obama.

But no order came, as of midnight in DC. And then none would come. Because the POTUS retired for the night with a “do not disturb” sign on his door, punted, and went to bed, to be well rested for Las Vegas.
.............
I think that’s the big secret they are keeping. The President went to bed, with his lost Ambassador being dragged through streets.

Obama went to bed.

ETA:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yr7odFUARg

[NickA]

Apparently we had AC-130Us there already:

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/10/26/ac-130u-gunship-was-on-scene-in-benghazi-obama-admin-refused-to-let-it-fire/?singlepage=true

That sure could have cleared out a crowd in record time.
The thought of one of those guys futilely painting a target, waiting for help that never came because of political BS just about makes me physically ill.

[JHC]

That sure could have cleared out a crowd in record time.
The thought of one of those guys futilely painting a target, waiting for help that never came because of political BS just about makes me physically ill.

POTUS got briefed early in the battle. Authorization would have required his Go. It's hard to find a way to seeing he didn't turn his back on them.

[BaiHu]

I don't write the articles, I just find them:

http://m.weeklystandard.com/blogs/petraeus-throws-obama-under-bus_657896.html

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JHC]

Brandon Webb is flying wing man for someone. Hey no gunships Ty, there could be an accident. I was appropriately warned on this forum. Thanks.

http://sofrep.com/12817/fox-news-throws-opsec-to-the-wind/

[RoyGBiv]

If there was any explanation worthy of belief, we'd have heard it weeks ago.

[TCinVA]

If there was any explanation worthy of belief, we'd have heard it weeks ago.

We now have practically every piece of our national security infrastructure claiming publicly that they never said not to go do anything during an ongoing 7 hour firefight. Including the White House now...and we all know how credible the White House has been on this issue.

They're literally claiming that despite having live video feed of what was happening to our folks and the Libyan militia who apparently tried to assist the CIA guys, nobody gave any orders one way or another.

I'm quite literally stunned that they would actually believe saying such a thing publicly is acceptable. Even if it's true...and God help us if it is because it's just ***CENSORED*** horrible to basically tell the world that we watched an AQ attack and sat their with our thumb up our ***CENSORED***...it's not the kind of thing you let out there because bad men listen to the news, too. You do not discourage future attacks by telling the globe you were either to inept or disinterested to respond to what you clearly knew was a terrorist attack.

I keep remembering the punditry calling this president one of the smartest people to have ever run for the office. I keep remembering how much of a disaster they said it would have been had someone like Sarah Palin been let near the second chair. I think Sarah Palin wouldn't have pulled stunts like this. She certainly would have had better sense than to ask a grieving family about their lost loved one's testicles.

But what the hell do I know. I'm just some bitter clinger. With my average intellect I can't possibly comprehend the brilliance that's at work in this event. The genius is obviously beyond we mere mortals to understand.

[BaiHu]

I'm with you TC. Well stated.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JHC]

We now have practically every piece of our national security infrastructure claiming publicly that they never said not to go do anything during an ongoing 7 hour firefight. Including the White House now...and we all know how credible the White House has been on this issue.

They're literally claiming that despite having live video feed of what was happening to our folks and the Libyan militia who apparently tried to assist the CIA guys, nobody gave any orders one way or another.

I'm quite literally stunned that they would actually believe saying such a thing publicly is acceptable. Even if it's true...and God help us if it is because it's just ***CENSORED*** horrible to basically tell the world that we watched an AQ attack and sat their with our thumb up our ***CENSORED***...it's not the kind of thing you let out there because bad men listen to the news, too. You do not discourage future attacks by telling the globe you were either to inept or disinterested to respond to what you clearly knew was a terrorist attack.

I keep remembering the punditry calling this president one of the smartest people to have ever run for the office. I keep remembering how much of a disaster they said it would have been had someone like Sarah Palin been let near the second chair. I think Sarah Palin wouldn't have pulled stunts like this. She certainly would have had better sense than to ask a grieving family about their lost loved one's testicles.

But what the hell do I know. I'm just some bitter clinger. With my average intellect I can't possibly comprehend the brilliance that's at work in this event. The genius is obviously beyond we mere mortals to understand.

Thus endeth the lesson. +1

[Tamara]

I'm quite literally stunned that they would actually believe saying such a thing publicly is acceptable. Even if it's true...and God help us if it is because it's just ***CENSORED*** horrible to basically tell the world that we watched an AQ attack and sat their with our thumb up our ***CENSORED***...it's not the kind of thing you let out there because bad men listen to the news, too.

Yeah, but are they registered to vote in Ohio?

[TCinVA]

For the record, I don't buy this "We didn't give any orders!" nonsense any more than I bought the idea that there was no way for the White House to have distinguished an important bit of information like an ambassador under attack from normal chatter. I mean, does anyone else remember 9/11 footage? Remember seeing Bush in the classroom when his chief of staff whispered in his ear?

Some bad stuff was going down. That information was prioritized according to protocols that were in place to route important information to the top as quickly as possible so that command decisions can start getting made. A college can send blast text messages about emergency situations to tens of thousands, but our national security apparatus has no ability to get an under-attack message to the top of the chain in a timely manner? Manure.

The notion that nobody did anything when the call for help went out is also manure. When that call for help went out I'm willing to bet that somewhere not too far away a team of dudes started loading weapons and throwing on body armor, and some aircraft started preparing for takeoff. If there was waiting, probably it was just on a go code from the top decision makers.

Instead, I'm willing to bet that they got an order to stand down or at least to hold and await further orders...which I'm sure they understood to be the functional equivalent of stand-down orders. They were probably keenly aware of what it meant. Had to be great for their morale to be neutralized and ordered to leave good men to die because a response might have been inconvenient or messy. Since those types of guys live on the tip of the spear, it had to make them wonder how much support they'd get if it was inconvenient or messy.

I would love to be wrong about all of that...but something tells me I'm not.

The constant stream of lies from this group is beyond reprehensible.

[TCinVA]

Yeah, but are they registered to vote in Ohio?

When the full story of this administration is written it will serve as a dire warning from history...either as a tale of how bad things got before we regained our senses or as a testament to the depth of our national hunger for civilizational suicide.

[littlejerry]

Fyi fox news has an hour long "special report" on Libya today. It's pretty good - some interesting details interviewing the head of security.

[JHC]

For the record, I don't buy this "We didn't give any orders!" nonsense any more than I bought the idea that there was no way for the White House to have distinguished an important bit of information like an ambassador under attack from normal chatter. I mean, does anyone else remember 9/11 footage? Remember seeing Bush in the classroom when his chief of staff whispered in his ear?

Some bad stuff was going down. That information was prioritized according to protocols that were in place to route important information to the top as quickly as possible so that command decisions can start getting made. A college can send blast text messages about emergency situations to tens of thousands, but our national security apparatus has no ability to get an under-attack message to the top of the chain in a timely manner? Manure.

The notion that nobody did anything when the call for help went out is also manure. When that call for help went out I'm willing to bet that somewhere not too far away a team of dudes started loading weapons and throwing on body armor, and some aircraft started preparing for takeoff. If there was waiting, probably it was just on a go code from the top decision makers.

Instead, I'm willing to bet that they got an order to stand down or at least to hold and await further orders...which I'm sure they understood to be the functional equivalent of stand-down orders. They were probably keenly aware of what it meant. Had to be great for their morale to be neutralized and ordered to leave good men to die because a response might have been inconvenient or messy. Since those types of guys live on the tip of the spear, it had to make them wonder how much support they'd get if it was inconvenient or messy.

I would love to be wrong about all of that...but something tells me I'm not.

The constant stream of lies from this group is beyond reprehensible.

Still purely speculative but what a coincidence that an admiral just recently in command of the fleet in the Med and the not long in place CG of African Command have been relieved of duty. There are "rumors" that is folks claiming confidential mil sources that Gen Ham was proceeding with sending a rescue force in after being told to stand down when he was "apprehended" by his deputy.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/10/was-africom-general-replaced-for-his-efforts-to-save-benghazi-security-officials/

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/navy-replaces-admiral-leading-mideast-strike-group-because-of-ongoing-investigation/

[Odin Bravo One]

Fyi fox news has an hour long "special report" on Libya today. It's pretty good - some interesting details interviewing the head of security.

Who was the head of security interviewed?

[littlejerry]

Who was the head of security interviewed?

Sorry for the brevity, I posted that from a phone.

They interviewed an admiral who was the head of a mobile security team that was pulled out of the country about a month before the attack. Both he and the ambassador made multiple requests to keep this team(about 16 "special forces" soldiers) in the country, all of which were denied.

[littlejerry]

so patreaus just resigned. Coincidence?

[TCinVA]

The smell on this thing certainly isn't improving.

[BLR]

Did you think it would?

I think impeachment is a good idea.

[JV_]

I think impeachment is a good idea.Articles of Impeachment would probably pass the House. But for a conviction in the Senate you'd need 2/3rds, that has almost 0 chance of happening.

[BLR]

Articles of Impeachment would probably pass the House. But for a conviction in the Senate you'd need 2/3rds, that has almost 0 chance of happening.

Of course not.

But it should be started to illustrate to Barry and crew we are not happy about it.

[Tamara]

so patreaus just resigned. Coincidence?

I have to admit that, although I'm not one for conspiracies, the timing of this gives it that whole "he was bravely pushed on top of that grenade to save his comrades" vibe...

[Ed L]

And apparantly now Petraeus is not going to testify before the congressional investigating committee. He was scheduled to do so as CIA director. Now they will have to call him specifically to do so.

[TCinVA]

And apparantly now Petraeus is not going to testify before the congressional investigating committee. He was scheduled to do so as CIA director. Now they will have to call him specifically to do so.

The resignation sounded so bizarre to me I was sure it was a lame-brained attempt at a tactic.

[Odin Bravo One]

And apparantly now Petraeus is not going to testify before the congressional investigating committee. He was scheduled to do so as CIA director. Now they will have to call him specifically to do so.

Doesn't matter.

The people of this country will NEVER know the whole truth about what has happened involving our people in that country over the past 2 years. Doesn't matter who is, or is not called to testify, or who resigned when, or why.

What is, and will be reported in domestic journalism is, has been, and will continue to be inaccurate, and in some cases flat out wrong. Being upset about the incident is certainly understandable, but the ability to draw a conclusion, or put the pieces together of what actually happened to a level that allows a position to be taken will not be possible based on the information provided to and by the press. The people have been misled, and lied to. That's the way it is, and that is the way it will stay.

The true truth of the matter is that the people of this country are better off not knowing the whole truth. And the people of this country who work over there are much, much better off. Some secrets are best left as just that. Secrets.

[BaiHu]

Doesn't matter.

The people of this country will NEVER know the whole truth about what has happened involving our people in that country over the past 2 years. Doesn't matter who is, or is not called to testify, or who resigned when, or why.

What is, and will be reported in domestic journalism is, has been, and will continue to be inaccurate, and in some cases flat out wrong. Being upset about the incident is certainly understandable, but the ability to draw a conclusion, or put the pieces together of what actually happened to a level that allows a position to be taken will not be possible based on the information provided to and by the press. The people have been misled, and lied to. That's the way it is, and that is the way it will stay.

The true truth of the matter is that the people of this country are better off not knowing the whole truth. And the people of this country who work over there are much, much better off. Some secrets are best left as just that. Secrets.

Sadly, I thank you for that post and its harsh reality.

Stay safe.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[RoyGBiv]

The people have been misled, and lied to. That's the way it is, and that is the way it will stay.

The true truth of the matter is that the people of this country are better off not knowing the whole truth. And the people of this country who work over there are much, much better off. Some secrets are best left as just that. Secrets.
I'm sure Nixon wished the same thing. I'm happy it didn't turn out that way. Hopefully we'll see the same here.
Now that the liberal media is done electing their guy, they might just get focused on some actual news.

President Joe Biden. "C'mon America, I'll buy you a beer" :cool:
Who would he pick as his VP? Al Gore maybe? Nancy Pelosi? Oh the tragic comedy that would ensue.!

[JConn]

Articles of Impeachment would probably pass the House. But for a conviction in the Senate you'd need 2/3rds, that has almost 0 chance of happening.

The fact that the senate would most assuredly ignore any criminal wrong doing of our president, and that no one would ever say other wise, is a sad commentary on the state of our political system.


Doesn't matter.

The people of this country will NEVER know the whole truth about what has happened involving our people in that country over the past 2 years. Doesn't matter who is, or is not called to testify, or who resigned when, or why.

What is, and will be reported in domestic journalism is, has been, and will continue to be inaccurate, and in some cases flat out wrong. Being upset about the incident is certainly understandable, but the ability to draw a conclusion, or put the pieces together of what actually happened to a level that allows a position to be taken will not be possible based on the information provided to and by the press. The people have been misled, and lied to. That's the way it is, and that is the way it will stay.

The true truth of the matter is that the people of this country are better off not knowing the whole truth. And the people of this country who work over there are much, much better off. Some secrets are best left as just that. Secrets.

Fair enough. My imagination on these sorts of things is either zill and I just accept what the press tells me or a rerun of 24 where tons of stuff is happening behind the scenes that the people will never know. I think what your saying is the truth is somewhere in between. The unfortunate part is the fact that, either way our government is an explosive combination of corrupt and incompetent. I'm not talking about the folks on the ground, just the folks in Washington. If the people never know, which you say will be better, then how do we ever go about convincing people of the need for real change in government?


I'm sure Nixon wished the same thing. I'm happy it didn't turn out that way. Hopefully we'll see the same here.
Now that the liberal media is done electing their guy, they might just get focused on some actual news.

President Joe Biden. "C'mon America, I'll buy you a beer" :cool:
Who would he pick as his VP? Al Gore maybe? Nancy Pelosi? Oh the tragic comedy that would ensue.!

As much as a disagree with the president on just about everything, I think Joe Biden scares me more. Although, he may just be too stupid to get anything done, which I would be OK with.

[Chemsoldier]

so patreaus just resigned. Coincidence?

Probably a coincidence, he knew the results of official notice of an affair. He started the affair over a year ago and it has been in the process of officially noticed for months. He knows resigning is not going to keep him from testifying and at best will delay his testimony a few days, its not like he has any pressing time commitments anymore...

Events that are spread evenly across a timeline are not random. When they start clumping up that is a sign of a truly random distribution.

When I have a flat tire when I am already late...its ironic, and a coincidence *cue Alanis Morisette song*

I dont see any compelling evidence that it is deliberate.

[TCinVA]

1163

Post-election I stopped watching the news and so I've missed out on a whole bunch of developments. The above graph seems to explain why David Patraeus' wang is so much in the news now...but even with the helpful graphic I'm still puzzled as to what in blue hell all this has to do a dead ambassador in Lybia.

...but maybe now that sex is involved people will pay some ***CENSORED*** attention.

And, while I'm at it, hats off to the FBI agent who, investigating a report of harassment, attempts to sext the victim of the harassment. I can see why the Bureau turned down a bunch of veteran street officers to hire you.

[RoyGBiv]

Post-election I stopped watching the news and so I've missed out on a whole bunch of developments. The above graph seems to explain why David Patraeus' wang is so much in the news now...but even with the helpful graphic I'm still puzzled as to what in blue hell all this has to do a dead ambassador in Lybia.

...but maybe now that sex is involved people will pay some ***CENSORED*** attention.

And, while I'm at it, hats off to the FBI agent who, investigating a report of harassment, attempts to sext the victim of the harassment. I can see why the Bureau turned down a bunch of veteran street officers to hire you.
Question for you .mil folks..
Is this properly referred to as "FUBAR" or a "Clusterfuck"?

[Kyle Reese]

Question for you .mil folks..
Is this properly referred to as "FUBAR" or a "Clusterfuck"?

I don't see FUBAR in my German dictionary....

[MDS]

Question for you .mil folks..
Is this properly referred to as "FUBAR" or a "Clusterfuck"?

Also, that FBI dude is ripped. Anybody know where I can find out his workout routine and gnc shopping list?

[Tamara]

Post-election I stopped watching the news and so I've missed out on a whole bunch of developments. The above graph seems to explain why David Patraeus' wang is so much in the news now...but even with the helpful graphic I'm still puzzled as to what in blue hell all this has to do a dead ambassador in Lybia.

...but maybe now that sex is involved people will pay some ***CENSORED*** attention.

And, while I'm at it, hats off to the FBI agent who, investigating a report of harassment, attempts to sext the victim of the harassment. I can see why the Bureau turned down a bunch of veteran street officers to hire you.
The FBI dude did what he did to ensure that there wasn't ONE SINGLE PERSON involved in this thing who wasn't a sleazeball. What a mess... :eek:

[MadMax17]

Question for you .mil folks..
Is this properly referred to as "FUBAR" or a "Clusterfuck"?

SNAFU or "The Status Quo" works...

[JHC]

It seems to turn out that the FBI agent with the shirtless pic - this pic was sent to Ms Kelly and like a dozen other people in a group email for a project assembling a photo album for some banquet or something quite a long time before this investigation. In the pic, he is bald/shaved headed and posed out on the range without his shirt with his arms around two bullet riddled 3D target dummies, also shirtless which looked somewhat like him with their hairless heads also etc.

There is more background on him out but it's drowned out by the salacious stuff.

And the graph above is appropriately hysterical for making the point.

[Tamara]

It seems to turn out that the FBI agent with the shirtless pic - this pic was sent to Ms Kelly and like a dozen other people in a group email for a project assembling a photo album for some banquet or something quite a long time before this investigation. In the pic, he is bald/shaved headed and posed out on the range without his shirt with his arms around two bullet riddled 3D target dummies, also shirtless which looked somewhat like him with their hairless heads also etc.

Oh, thank gawd. I was beginning to be afraid that there wasn't a logical explanation for any of this.

[BLR]

This whole thing demonstrates just how high caliber our domestic news, especially the investigative reporters, are. A shining example of integrity and professionalism.

[BaiHu]

An update on the thorough review and firing of those responsible for the intelligence lapse in Benghazi.....or...

"The four officials supposedly out of jobs because of their blunders in the run-up to the deadly Benghazi terror attack remain on the State Department payroll — and will all be back to work soon, The Post has learned."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/benghazi_penalties_are_bogus_ncP7RZx5uTIgDPbTp5Wto N?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=International

[BaiHu]

I'm sure most of you read this over the weekend, but....just in case:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/05/05/Acting-Amb-Gregory-Hicks-on-9-16-Benghazi-Talking-Points-My-jaw-hit-the-floor-as-I-watched-this


Hicks, who did not appear on the show but whose reactions were featured based on transcripts of interviews with Issa's committee, said he was stunned by what UN Ambassador Susan Rice claimed on five different news shows on Sep. 16. When she appeared on Face the Nation, she followed an interview with the President of Libya who claimed he had "no doubt" it was a terror attack. Moments later, Amb. Rice contradicted him and claimed a spontaneous protest was more likely.
Acting Ambassador Hicks watched the Sunday shows and said he found this contradiction shocking. "The net impact of what has transpired is the spokesperson of the most powerful country in the world has basically said that the President of Libya is either a liar or doesn't know what he's talking about," he accused. Hicks added, "My jaw hit the floor as I watched this...I've never been as embarrassed in my life, in my career as on that day."
Hicks believes the stunning failure of diplomacy on the Sunday news shows explains why it took the FBI three weeks to gain access to the Benghazi site. The U.S. had effectively humiliated the Libyan President on national TV. That decision, he believed, probably compromised our ability to investigate and track down those responsible.

http://www.jammiewf.com/2013/benghazi-coverup-clinton-tried-end-run-around-counterterrorism-bureau-on-night-of-benghazi-attack/


On the night of Sept. 11, as the Obama administration scrambled to respond to the Benghazi terror attacks, then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and a key aide effectively tried to cut the department’s own counterterrorism bureau out of the chain of reporting and decision-making, according to a “whistle-blower” witness from that bureau who will soon testify to the charge before Congress, Fox News has learned.

That witness is Mark I. Thompson, a former Marine and now the deputy coordinator for operations in the agency’s counterterrorism bureau. Sources tell Fox News Thompson will level the allegation against Clinton during testimony on Wednesday before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, chaired by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif.

Fox News has also learned that another official from the counterterrorism bureau — independently of Thompson — voiced the same complaint about Clinton and Under Secretary for Management Patrick Kennedy to trusted national security colleagues back in October.

[TCinVA]

...so Hillary is being set up to take the fall for this. Lovely.

[Bigguy]

...so Hillary is being set up to take the fall for this. Lovely.

Seems to me she set herself up for it. It's only now coming to light.

[TCinVA]

Seems to me she set herself up for it. It's only how coming to light.

I don't doubt that Mrs. Clinton could have done a better job.

...but the buck does not stop at Sec. State's door. When there is a terrorist attack of an embassy going on, that information goes lots of places, including to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. There's a dude in that building that has the ability to make some stuff happen, and fast...if he's so inclined.

[RoyGBiv]

I don't doubt that Mrs. Clinton could have done a better job.

...but the buck does not stop at Sec. State's door. When there is a terrorist attack of an embassy going on, that information goes lots of places, including to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. There's a dude in that building that has the ability to make some stuff happen, and fast...if he's so inclined.

1,000% correct.

The President, the CinC, was derelict.
"I'm heading to bed, call me if you can't avoid it. I have an early flight to Vegas tomorrow and I need my beauty sleep or my thin skin really stands out on camera." (/sarcasm)

If one of his Generals was similarly derelict, would the General still be serving?

And now it's coming to (brighter) light (because you have to be an idiot not to have known to this point) that the likely 2016 Democratic Party nominee for CinC was similarly derelict, albeit not in the military CoC. This revelation, inasmuch as it affects her election chances, may be more important to our future.

[JHC]

Seems like a stain on Adm Mullen too, not even calling Deputy Amb Hicks for his review.

[RoyGBiv]

Who told US forces to stand down on 9/11/12?

[Kyle Reese]

Who told US forces to stand down on 9/11/12?

It was a "long time ago" and "what difference does it make"?

[BaiHu]

It was a "long time ago" and "what difference does it make"?

It must've been dubya's fault then, right :rolleyes:

Nah, that can't be it, cuz then we'd have an investigation.... :confused:

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Tamara]

It must've been dubya's fault then, right :rolleyes:

Nah, that can't be it, cuz then we'd have an investigation.... :confused:

Full. Of. Win.

If it had happened on the previous administration's watch, the media would still have their teeth buried in it and wouldn't let go until they had a blood sacrifice.

[RoyGBiv]

It was a "long time ago" and "what difference does it make"?

A great deal of difference, Madam secretary. A great deal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR3XTOjZPfg

http://haizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Romney-2012.jpg http://arunwithaview.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/obama_poster_2012_300.gif


http://tnp.thenationalpatriot.com/hillary%204.jpg

[BaiHu]

In case you feel like being irritated:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1155606216001/

[bdcheung]

Live stream of the oversight committee hearings/testimony:

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN3/

[BaiHu]

We are on the same clock bd, I just posted Foxes link.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[BaiHu]

You can't make this sh*t up:


U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice was honored Tuesday night with the 2013 Louis E. Martin Great American Award.
The annual award, presented by The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, is given to “an exemplar of change, progress and willingness to take one for the team if circumstances require. (I may have made that last part up.)
Specifically, the organization is honoring Rice for ”her work in advancing U.S. interests, strengthening the world’s common security and prosperity, and promoting respect for human rights,” another press release states.

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/05/08/Susan-Rice-Honored-With-Great-American-Award-The-Night-Before-Benghazi-Hearing

[RoyGBiv]

You can't make this sh*t up:

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/05/08/Susan-Rice-Honored-With-Great-American-Award-The-Night-Before-Benghazi-Hearing
Fact: 50% of the population has below-median intelligence.

[hufnagel]

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
-- George Carlin

God I miss him. He'd have had a field day this past year.

[Kyle Reese]

“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
-- George Carlin

God I miss him. He'd have had a field day this past year.

These folks....

1461

Combined with this....

1458

and this.....

1459

Means this....

1460

will be ignored....

[Drang]

You can't make this sh*t up:

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/05/08/Susan-Rice-Honored-With-Great-American-Award-The-Night-Before-Benghazi-Hearing
Nope:
Hillary Clinton Accepts Public Service Award In Beverly Hills « CBS Los Angeles (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/05/08/hillary-clinton-accepts-public-service-award-in-beverly-hills/)
(They leave out, "On day of Benghazi Hearings.")

[Odin Bravo One]

Nope:

(They leave out, "On day of Benghazi Hearings.")

Not in the version I read......


The gala happened the same day members of Congress are investigating a deadly attack on an embassy in Libya. Dramatic testimony about the Benghazi massacre last September, including criticism of how it was handled by Clinton and the Obama administration, was underway in Washington, D.C.

[RoyGBiv]

From my congresscritter today. Just a summary, nothing new, just thought I'd share.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqFIV8tyxUM

[SeriousStudent]

I've always been a big fan of Dr. Burgess.

[Odin Bravo One]

Watching the handling of the "investigation" is as sad, pathetic, and shameful as the acts that led to the investigation..............

The "spin doctors", such as presented above who are politicizing every aspect, however irrelevant to events, are as much to blame for the handling of this disgrace as any "Administration".

[TCinVA]

I haven't been paying much attention to this because one can only stomach so much of this sort of thing before vomiting, but it seems to me that the hearings brought out the following:

- All the top decision makers knew that there was an attack going on. Frankly I found assertions to the contrary to be ridiculous because it presumes that our national security apparatus doesn't have the means to route priority information to the right ears...which strains the limits of gullibility.

- There was at least some real-time intel fed by a drone on scene

- Prior to the attack, despite lots of warnings, other attacks, and even other nations and NGO's pulling out, decision makers dumbed down security for the mission in Lybia.

- Once the attack was under way, none of the decision makers with the power to mobilize resources did a damned thing.

- People well below the paygrade of the primary decision makers did attempt to mobilize some assistance, and seem to have been shut down.

- Every word out of the mouth of administration officials after the attack was a complete fabrication.

That about right?

[NETim]

I haven't been paying much attention to this because one can only stomach so much of this sort of thing before vomiting, but it seems to me that the hearings brought out the following:

- All the top decision makers knew that there was an attack going on. Frankly I found assertions to the contrary to be ridiculous because it presumes that our national security apparatus doesn't have the means to route priority information to the right ears...which strains the limits of gullibility.

- There was at least some real-time intel fed by a drone on scene

- Prior to the attack, despite lots of warnings, other attacks, and even other nations and NGO's pulling out, decision makers dumbed down security for the mission in Lybia.

- Once the attack was under way, none of the decision makers with the power to mobilize resources did a damned thing.

- People well below the paygrade of the primary decision makers did attempt to mobilize some assistance, and seem to have been shut down.

- Every word out of the mouth of administration officials after the attack was a complete fabrication.

That about right?


That's the way I see it. The Obama Admin has more important things to do, like directing their IRS attack dogs.

[RoyGBiv]

That about right?

Yes... Mr Obama had an important fundraiser in Las Vegas the next day. He needed his beauty rest.

[ford.304]

I haven't been paying much attention to this because one can only stomach so much of this sort of thing before vomiting, but it seems to me that the hearings brought out the following:

- All the top decision makers knew that there was an attack going on. Frankly I found assertions to the contrary to be ridiculous because it presumes that our national security apparatus doesn't have the means to route priority information to the right ears...which strains the limits of gullibility.

- There was at least some real-time intel fed by a drone on scene

- Prior to the attack, despite lots of warnings, other attacks, and even other nations and NGO's pulling out, decision makers dumbed down security for the mission in Lybia.

- Once the attack was under way, none of the decision makers with the power to mobilize resources did a damned thing.

- People well below the paygrade of the primary decision makers did attempt to mobilize some assistance, and seem to have been shut down.

- Every word out of the mouth of administration officials after the attack was a complete fabrication.

That about right?

But hey, actually investigating this is just *politics*, because it's obviously not some giant conspiracy theory...

I am getting so sick of both the right and the left on scandals the last couple years. Both this and Fast and Furious *should be* giant smurfing scandals because they show an egregious level of incompetence that got a bunch of people killed. I'm getting tired of the right distracting from that fact by throwing out conspiracy theories and the left happily using those conspiracies as an excuse to ignore the base fact that someone in Washington smurfed up, and Americans died because of it.

[TCinVA]

Since Watergate it's become clear that scandal is a path to defeating the administration in power...and so there's a built-in desire to find a good scandal and people seize on anything in front of them at the moment because if there's anything Washington has proven it's that fabricated scandals can still be quite damaging. Look at that whole Valerie Plame thing...invented from whole cloth, and yet still managed to snag a felony conviction for somebody near the POTUS.

...but at the same time, there's stuff that transpires which genuinely deserves to be looked into. When you have dead bodies and a secretary of state asking what difference it makes as if she has the right to be indignant about answering questions involving events under her direct supervision, it's definitely more than just a faint odor of smoke in the air. Some kitten is on fire.

We are talking about Washington, here. It's a place that runs on fiction. Hell, it is a fiction.

Do yourself a favor: Read Robert Caro's last two books about LBJ. I say that because Caro's books are almost universally regarded as being solid academic works with nobody challenging his facts in an effort to protect their current interests. At worst they are dismissed as being how politics worked "back then"...but I assure you it doesn't operate any cleaner today than it did "back then".

[JHC]

Watching the handling of the "investigation" is as sad, pathetic, and shameful as the acts that led to the investigation..............

The "spin doctors", such as presented above who are politicizing every aspect, however irrelevant to events, are as much to blame for the handling of this disgrace as any "Administration".

Wow, I think you jumped the shark there.

[TCinVA]

Wow, I think you jumped the shark there.

I'd dare say that he's probably in a vastly better position to assess the situation than most of us.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd dare say that he's probably in a vastly better position to assess the situation than most of us.

Indeed.

[JHC]

I'd dare say that he's probably in a vastly better position to assess the situation than most of us.

No sir. Being an SME in military matters is one thing. This is American politics. There are political actors who did some things. Other political actors roasting them for it does not make the roasters equally culpable in the original malfeasance.

[TCinVA]

No sir. Being an SME in military matters is one thing. This is American politics. There are political actors who did some things. Other political actors roasting them for it does not make the roasters equally culpable in the original malfeasance.

I believe the general point being made is that the political game in general is an impediment to doing the right thing by the people on the ground...and lots of people are responsible for that state of affairs.

[ToddG]

No sir. Being an SME in military matters is one thing. This is American politics. There are political actors who did some things. Other political actors roasting them for it does not make the roasters equally culpable in the original malfeasance.

If the roasters' idiotic kitchen sink political attack leads to no one being held responsible for what happened, yeah it does.

[Odin Bravo One]

I believe the general point being made is that the political game in general is an impediment to doing the right thing by the people on the ground...and lots of people are responsible for that state of affairs.


If the roasters' idiotic kitchen sink political attack leads to no one being held responsible for what happened, yeah it does.

IF.........

IF.......

And it is a BIG IF......

They can get past the "the Government lied to the American People" part.........(no shit. they all lie, all the time.)......

Maybe..........

Maybe.......

And it is a BIG MAYBE.......

I'll start to pretend that any of our elected money snatchers might actually give a shit about what can be done to prevent a fiasco like this in the future.

The reality is that the actions and lack of actions that led to the death of four Americans is not new. It just happened to make the news this time. If it were truly an investigation into misconduct, or lack of response, or lack of assets being put into play.........Where is the outrage from our politicians about the 4 Americans who died in Afghanistan last month? Or the month before? Or the month before that? I can guarantee they didn't have all of the resources of the US Military available.............no one is raking the Administration over the coals for that.

So, sorry......I don't buy for one second that they actually care about the issue. They care about being able to exploit it to benefit their own political agenda's.

[JHC]

Roger. Hell I didn't mean nuffin'. Just don't agree. :D

[RoyGBiv]

I don't buy for one second that they actually care about the issue. They care about being able to exploit it to benefit their own political agenda's.
I certainly see where this could be true... we're definitely much more polarized as a nation, and thusly our politicians, than we were even as recently as the end of the Clinton administration. It seems that we're destined to continue this trend through the end of Obama's second term, since there is zero movement toward the center from this administration. It's full speed to port from them. And before you accuse me of feeding the frenzy you're lamenting, let me say that I'm talking about leadership here, not politics. Clinton managed to get things done without alienating half the country (including an AWB). It's incredibly difficult NOT to take every political opportunity to bash Obama, when he seems to take every opportunity to divide the nation and try to fundamentally change it to fit his far-left agenda. We could wait patiently for real leadership to emerge, but I'm afraid waiting patiently will leave us far worse in 2016 than will the political opportunism you're seeing today.