Best .38 Ammo out of a 3-inch .38 revolver

[APPDMike]

I’ve read that the FBI load doesn’t do well with heavy clothing and I live in the northeast, so that make it a seasonal load at best. Any other suggestions?

[Totem Polar]

I’ve read that the FBI load doesn’t do well with heavy clothing and I live in the northeast, so that make it a seasonal load at best. Any other suggestions?

At 3 inches, options open up (no pun intended). I’d just grab some gold dot 135 +P or Winchester Ranger RA38B 130gr +P and call it a day. There are other boutique options (buffalo bore, underwood) that will do in a pinch, but the loads coming off of Doc Roberts’ list perform well enough—especially going from 1 7/8” to a true 3”—that I wouldn’t look anywhere else with 3”-4” tubes unless recoil mitigation was a real concern. I only omit the 110 dpx loads because I’ve found that 110 doesn’t play well with the sights on pretty much all my .38/.357 revolvers. JMO.

[Norville]

At 3 inches, options open up (no pun intended). I’d just grab some gold dot 135 +P or Winchester Ranger RA38B 130gr +P and call it a day. There are other boutique options (buffalo bore, underwood) that will do in a pinch, but the loads coming off of Doc Roberts’ list perform well enough—especially going from 1 7/8” to a true 3”—that I wouldn’t look anywhere else with 3”-4” tubes unless recoil mitigation was a real concern. I only omit the 110 dpx loads because I’ve found that 110 doesn’t play well with the sights on pretty much all my .38/.357 revolvers. JMO.

That sums it up pretty well!

[revchuck38]

My experience is that if you have an older Colt or S&W, lighter-than-158-grain ammo hits far enough below point of aim at five yards and farther to matter. If it’s a fixed-sight gun you can always take it to the range with a flat file and shorten the front sight as needed. I’m thinking about doing that with my 3” M10. Then again, I live in the Deep South so heavy clothing isn’t an issue.

[RevolverRob]

I've found the 135-grain +P Short Barrel is the best compromise of terminal performance and shoot ability for 2-3" guns.

It may shoot low for you as Revchuck mentioned - so check it and see.

I also still have a lot of 158-grain LHP and I use it in my revolvers during summer. If that's what hit to my sights and I didn't want to adjust them, I'd keep trucking with it.

[03RN]

That 130gr Winchester+p is in my wife's 2" m15. Everytime I shoot something with it it opens up beautifuly.

My 2&3" guns are loaded with my 147gr HST load at 930fps. I might switch my wife's gun over to them but it's just kinda an afterthought in her nightstand.

[JCN]

My 2&3" guns are loaded with my 147gr HST load at 930fps. I might switch my wife's gun over to them but it's just kinda an afterthought in her nightstand.

I am very disappointed that they aren’t going at least 1200 fps! :D

930 is like P365 velocity. :)

[03RN]

I am very disappointed that they aren’t going at least 1200 fps! :D

930 is like P365 velocity. :)

I really wanted a little more speed but with the powders I have I just gave up.

I get 1275 from my 4" m65 so there's that.

[4given]

I've found the 135-grain +P Short Barrel is the best compromise of terminal performance and shoot ability for 2-3" guns.

It may shoot low for you as Revchuck mentioned - so check it and see.

I also still have a lot of 158-grain LHP and I use it in my revolvers during summer. If that's what hit to my sights and I didn't want to adjust them, I'd keep trucking with it.

The Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P Short Barrel shoots POI and groups tightly in my S&W M65 3" Works well in my King Cobra 3" as well. Recoil is very manageable.

[LockedBreech]

At 3 inches, options open up (no pun intended). I’d just grab some gold dot 135 +P or Winchester Ranger RA38B 130gr +P and call it a day. There are other boutique options (buffalo bore, underwood) that will do in a pinch, but the loads coming off of Doc Roberts’ list perform well enough—especially going from 1 7/8” to a true 3”—that I wouldn’t look anywhere else with 3”-4” tubes unless recoil mitigation was a real concern. I only omit the 110 dpx loads because I’ve found that 110 doesn’t play well with the sights on pretty much all my .38/.357 revolvers. JMO.

Couldn't agree more, that Gold Dot load and that Ranger load are the .38 +Ps I keep in stock.

I need to do a real deep dive of research on how safe it is to keep a cylinder of them in my 1968 Colt D-Frame and 1961 Model 36. I have a box of Norma Safeguard standard pressure but my confidence is basically 0% that load isn't just an FMJ.

[Totem Polar]

Couldn't agree more, that Gold Dot load and that Ranger load are the .38 +Ps I keep in stock.

I need to do a real deep dive of research on how safe it is to keep a cylinder of them in my 1968 Colt D-Frame and 1961 Model 36. I have a box of Norma Safeguard standard pressure but my confidence is basically 0% that load isn't just an FMJ.

I went down the “+P rabbit hole” some number of years back, unearthing enough discussion around ammo of yesteryear (30s through 70s) being hotter than ammo of today—along with guys putting 10k +P rounds through airweight model 12s as an experiment—that I no longer have any concern about +P use in any steel gun made since Harry Truman was still a thing. I have 135 GDHP in my 3” model 36-1 in the safe as I type. That gun has had a lot of boxes of +P run through it since my dad bought it new in 1976. It’s still about the same as it always was, so far as I can tell. Still works, at any rate. JMO.

Here’s a Colt add from the 50s stating that the little D-frame can handle .38-44 loads—those loads were *far* beyond anything we are discussing from Doc’s list. :)

[LockedBreech]

I went down the “+P rabbit hole” some number of years back, unearthing enough discussion around ammo of yesteryear (30s through 70s) being hotter than ammo of today—along with guys putting 10k +P rounds through airweight model 12s as an experiment—that I no longer have any concern about +P use in any steel gun made since Harry Truman was still a thing. I have 135 GDHP in my 3” model 36-1 in the safe as I type. That gun has had a lot of boxes of +P run through it since my dad bought it new in 1976. It’s still about the same as it always was, so far as I can tell. Still works, at any rate. JMO.

Here’s a Colt add from the 50s stating that the little D-frame can handle .38-44 loads—those loads were *far* beyond anything we are discussing from Doc’s list. :)

That old ad is very cool and very reassuring. Thanks for posting.

[jetfire]

Myself and Darryl both carry the 135gr +P Gold Dots in 3 inch guns. They do much better once you give them that extra inch or so of barrel.

[RevolverRob]

FWIW, 5pins recent job looking at short barrel from a J-Frame has me pretty much sold on it as an excellent choice in all .38 Specials: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53138-Speer-38-Spl-135gr-Gold-Dot-P-in-Vyse-Ballistics-Gel

The consistency of it with proper ballistics gel of 12-14" of penetration and expansion to ~.55" is basically what I expect from LHP. That it performs well through heavy clothing and that bonded Gold Dot historically does well through intermediate barriers is also positive.

[APPDMike]

What about the ranger 110? It was designed for snubs but will it be good out of 3 inch?

[JAH 3rd]

I use the Winchester Ranger 130gr +P load in my 340PD. Since some preferred ammo can be scarce, I am posting this link only as another option for self-defense ammo. It's expensive and I haven't used it.

https://www.buckinghorseoutpost.com/product/speer-gold-dot-38spl-125-grain-p-jacketed-hollow-point-50rds-per-box-53720/

[Totem Polar]

What about the ranger 110? It was designed for snubs but will it be good out of 3 inch?

If it’s not on Doc’s list, I’d be cautious, especially regarding appropriate penetration. Plus, 110 *may* not hit to sights very well. But it’s probably way better than nothing.

[revchuck38]

If it’s not on Doc’s list, I’d be cautious, especially regarding appropriate penetration. Plus, 110 *may* not hit to sights very well. But it’s probably way better than nothing.

The 130-grain stuff (on Doc's list) is available (https://miwallcorp.com/winchester-ranger-ammunition-38-special-p-130-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point-50-rounds-nickel-plated-brass-case/) relatively cheaply.

[APPDMike]

If it’s not on Doc’s list, I’d be cautious, especially regarding appropriate penetration. Plus, 110 *may* not hit to sights very well. But it’s probably way better than nothing.

What list is it on? I’ve only ever seen GDHP under .38. Maybe I’ve been looking in the wrong place?

[Totem Polar]

The 130-grain stuff (on Doc's list) is available (https://miwallcorp.com/winchester-ranger-ammunition-38-special-p-130-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point-50-rounds-nickel-plated-brass-case/) relatively cheaply.

Looks like you just sold some ammo for them.


What list is it on? I’ve only ever seen GDHP under .38. Maybe I’ve been looking in the wrong place?

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

[revchuck38]

^^^^Ha, you beat me to it! :)

[03RN]

91418

147gr HSTs @930fps

:cool:

snow white

[snow white]

Beautiful

[awp_101]

91418

147gr HSTs @930fps

:cool:

snow white

9mm bullets in .38 cases?

[03RN]

9mm bullets in .38 cases?

Works great in .357 too

https://youtu.be/DUS_VHoSrBY
25 yards
91432

[awp_101]

Thanks, I thought the .355/.357 thing might be an issue but maybe not. I don't reload (yet) so I didn't know the bullets were/are available as components.

[LockedBreech]

91418

147gr HSTs @930fps

:cool:

@snow white (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=13856)

That. Is pretty awesome.

[revolvergeek]

My experience is that if you have an older Colt or S&W, lighter-than-158-grain ammo hits far enough below point of aim at five yards and farther to matter. If it’s a fixed-sight gun you can always take it to the range with a flat file and shorten the front sight as needed. I’m thinking about doing that with my 3” M10. Then again, I live in the Deep South so heavy clothing isn’t an issue.

I used to think that also, but then I started keeping an eye out for the dramatically increasing homeless population around downtown Baton Rouge (lots of surprisingly aggressive panhandling in the immediate area). Many of them are wearing 4-6 layers of clothes any given day. There is one guy that I see every couple days I would bet as at least 4 long sleeve sweatshirts on right now.


That 130gr Winchester+p is in my wife's 2" m15. Everytime I shoot something with it it opens up beautifuly.

My 2&3" guns are loaded with my 147gr HST load at 930fps. I might switch my wife's gun over to them but it's just kinda an afterthought in her nightstand.

Very cool! I bought a big bag of mixed 124 and 147 HST just for that project a while back from RMR but haven't gotten to it yet. I was debating pulling down some old 147 38 +P+ Hyrdashok and loading the 147 into those, and the work up a .357 load to push the 124 around 1300 just to see what they did.

[diananike]

I tried .355 9mm bullets in my Marlin .357 lever gun and they were quite accurate.
It’s interesting that the undersized bullets still shoot so well.
Opens up whole new realms for reloaders.
I wonder if the convertible .357/9mm Ruger Blackhawk uses a .357 bore as well?
I guess they wouldn’t be so popular if it didn’t work.

[DanTheWolfman]

Underwoods 125 gr Bonded/Gold Dot should get very good velocity out of a 3" tube and perform very well I would think.

[DanTheWolfman]

a balancing reminder quote from DrGkr on the issue of 2" and under snub loads
"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

Also on that note,l et me ask you all a question. I can't find the 135+p short barreled Gold Dot to purchase, but I can find the 125 Plus P Gold Dot. I assume he left it out as it didn't perform as well from 2" and unders snubs? Tests I have seen it often plugged w/ denim. Just wondering if anyone knows more....like it does perform well 4" but doesn't expand 2" so 3" is unknown territory on the 125 plus p gold dot .38 load?

[DanTheWolfman]

I've compiled some 3" numbers that may be helpful to some, w/ a few 2" and 4" numbers given here and there to compare to. As for me reporting the Similar Results of 4-layer DENIM +Medium Density Fiberboard testing compared to Official 4-layer FBI testing as it relates to penetration, expansion, and overall Tissue Crush Adj. Vol. values if you want to ignore that or be overtly rude I guess go ahead, but I would call it a decent guess on unknown loads or giving an idea in different barrel lengths when cross referencing Official Manufacturer data and DrGkr tests.

Hello....and Yes...I am this borderline Spectrum nerdy....
I've been wanting an 856 Defender for awhile, love 3" wheelies which I have in .357...I paid more attention to .357 ballistics than .38 to an extent in the past, and I am also looking at .357 Charter Professional 3" .357 so wanted to get more 3" specific data (though yes gun manufacturer- and gun to gun can have different speed barrels but still hard to compile 3" data).

Anyways, I got data out of my friend Gun Sam's testing with his steel framed 856 Defender External Ballistics ie Velocity chrono averages & thought some may like real world numbers from one compiled. Given the lots of interest in the old 856 thread, and some attention in my own Defender/Executive 3" thread.......I thought some other people may want this data to figure out carry loads or to see some differences vs 2" and 4" barrels.

I know some only worry about penetration and not expansion and will stick with 148 WC or 158 SWCHP's with velocity too low and lead too hard they won't expand even from a 3" barrel. However, for carry I want something that actually expands and know a lot of people do as well.

Oh I know how bad people want to shut down the data, but as I have shown, his very particular 4 layer Denim Testing protocol WHILE adding a 1/4" Medium Density Fiber board 3" in has compared very closely to the Official REAL Gel 4 layer Testing in ALL Pistol Calibers from Vista and Hornady...with similar enough penetration and expansion numbers to give very close Tissue Crush Value Numbers....that seems to equate within decent enough % difference than one would get from different barrel lengths or lot to lot differences. Not official enough for you? Well OK then, but given loads we don't have data on, and especially in .38 (and particularly in 3") where there is very little data, I think that it is useful information to make educated guesses to real world performance.

I have given Hornady's Official 4 layer Real Gel and Vista's Speer/Federal Official Real Gel 4 layer data before which is comparable to what is shown here with the Gold Dot and Critical Defense loads.

[DanTheWolfman]

Please no one delete this data it takes awhile to compile and I want a reference for myself and others. Thank you.
Don't know POA/POI for the Defenders...and if with night sight (& with which type of hold) or regular ramp installed...some reporting similar to 130 fmj, others reporting closer to 158 standard pressure pud loads....so POI should be figured out for your particular Revo but this might be helpful in pointing a direction in carry ammo selection especially during Ammogaddon crunches where favorite loads may be hard to come by.

3" Steel Taurus 856 Defender unless otherwise noted

THESE 3 Loads tested particularly good from the Taurus 3" steel 856 Defender
135 +P Gold Dot Short Barrel 913 fps 5-shot Avg. 250 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" Pen .50 Exp.

Critical Defense 110+P This load tested 2 different days Day 1 1036 fps avg. 262 ft. lbs. ME , Day 2 1039 fps 264 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 952 fps 221 ME)
Day 1 MDF Results 12.25" Pen .527 Exp Day 2 MDF Results 13" .513 Exp

Ultimate Defense FULL SIZE 125+P 967 Avg 259 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 11.5" Pen approximately .60 avg Exp (1 petal made Max larger)

This common load expanded decently well, but wonder if most 110+P loads OTHER than Critical Defense tended to under penetrate in more official testing in the past
Remington HTP 110+P 1068 fps avg 279 ft. lbs. ME (2" 605 for comparison 980 fps 235 ME)
MDF Results 12.25" Pen .488 Exp

These loads did not expand well, even from the 3" barrel
Federal Punch 120+P 1056 fps avg 297 ft. lbs ME
MDF Results 16.75" Pen app .42 Exp (obviously would like to see multiple sources of REAL Calibrated Gel Testing on this one)

Underwood 125+P w/XTP Bullet 1132 fps avg 356 ft. lbs ME
(the UD 125 Gold Dot/Bonded would perform MUCH better but out of stock & not tested in 3"-Does anyone here have any of them or tested them?)
MDF Results 21" Pen w/ little expansion deformation

Winchester SuperX Silvertip 125+P 904 fps avg 227 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 16.5" .378

HTP 158+P Lead HP 870 fps avg 265 ft. lbs. ME
MDF Results 13.5" .363


To Be Continued with loads that would perform well both standard and +p pressure FBI Style 158 Loads but with/Soft Lead SWCHP from both Underwood & Buffalo Bore

[DanTheWolfman]

These Loads were tested in either 1 7/8" or 2" barrels and 4" barrels so an educated guess on 3" performance can be had. Buffalo Bore Barnes Tac-XP loads should also be considered though expensive.
These loads from a 3" barrel turn a .38+P into low end 2" .357 Mag territory. Remember, the 158 LSWCHP loaded by both Underwood & Buffalo Bore are Softer lead than previous "FBI" or "Chicago" loadings.....so better on direct biped hits...less better on barriers

Underwood Standard Pressure 158 LSWCHP Rated by Underwood at 980 fps-LOW RECOIL
Gun Sam 1 7/8" 743 fps 194 ft. lbs. ME Good Penetration and Expansion Low Recoil even from LW snub
4" 686 823 fps 238 ft. lbs. ME

Reviewer Posted these numbers for Underwood 158+P LSWCHP Rated at 1160 fps Medium-Heavy Recoil
2" 605 1052 fps 388 ft. lbs. ME stated 2" 3-Layer Clear Gel Results of 14.75" .621
4" 586 1170 fps 480 ft. lbs. ME

Buffalo Bore 158 Standard Pressure LSWCHP Manageable Recoil
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 854 fps 256 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 916 fps 294 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 12" Pen .622 Exp
2.5" 871 fps 266 ft. lbs. ME
3" 930 fps 303 ft. lbs. ME
4" 979 fps 336 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1014 fps 316 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 13.25" Pen .633 Exp

Buffalo Bore 158 +P LSWCHP: HEAVY Recoil & LOUD Powerful Load
Buffalo Bore Reports
2" 1040 fps 379 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 2" 605 1060 fps 394 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 14.5" Pen .621 Exp
2.5" 1059 fps 393 ft. lbs. ME
3" 1143 fps 458 ft. lbs. ME
4" 1162 474 ft. lbs. ME Gun Sam 4" 686 1189 fps 496 ft. lbs. ME MDF Results 17.5" Pen .641 Exp


And a balancing reminder quote from DrGkr on the issue of 2" and under snub loads
"Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers."

Also on that note, I can't find the 135+p short barreled Gold Dot to purchase, but I can find the 125 Plus P Gold Dot. I assume he left it out as it didn't perform as well from snubs? Tests I have seen were it plugged w/ denim. Just wondering if anyone knows more....like it does perform well 4" but doesn't expand 2" so 3" is unknown territory on the 125 plus p gold dot .38 load?

[DanTheWolfman]

Also, here are some FBI Tests Results I came about. Old 4-Layer Testing
FBI TEST 7/27/90 Federal 125 grain sjhp 3" S&W13=1265 Velocity 4 layer 11.75" .51.
FBI TEST 2/28/91 Federal 158 grain sjhp S&W19 4"=1200 fps 4 layer 15.9" .64=5.12 cu in" Tissue Crush.

I believe the avg Human male body 6" wide front to back, 7.9" diagonally to heart from different angles, 9.3" various angles through entire body, 16.3" avg shoulder width is that correct?

Also, this has 1989 FBI data in it...including from 3" S&W M13's w/ both .38 and .357 though if those are 4-layer test results or more likely an Averaging of all tests I am not sure it states. Also, there Tissue Crush Adj Vol numbers seem way low...if those are somehow accurate please explain how to get such.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...bi-ammo-tests/

Should be noted that the FBI approved .357 magnum load for their 3" M13's was the 145 gr Silvertip

Also, the approved load for the especially tight toleranced special 3" (not typical 2 3/4") GS33 Ruger Six for the Postal Service Inspectors was the Federal 125 sjhp

[03RN]

To be clear... All those penetration numbers are with clear gel.

[revchuck38]

DanTheWolfman - First, Thanks! That was a lot of work. Some notes...

On this forum, any data that comes from other than "official" 10% ordnance gel will get the side-eye. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is what it is. Also on this forum, expansion is considered nice to have, but adequate penetration is considered necessary and non-negotiable. That's why the default recommendation for snubby ammo on this forum tends to be a full wadcutter - it doesn't expand, but it penetrates 14-16". I understand that the consensus on other forums may be different.

The link you gave didn't work for me. A short search yielded this one (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/) which does. Note that the three .38 LHP loads are pretty close in performance. These are known collectively as the "FBI load", and one or the other was the standard issue for agents for their 3" M13s. Ed Mireles used the R-P version to end the famous "Miami shootout". It was a common load for many LE agencies of the time because it worked and it wasn't a .357 Magnum. My understanding is that the .357 Silvertip load was approved for a very limited number of agents. If you've never shot a full-power .357 load from a K frame, it's pretty spicy. A 50-round qual wouldn't be much fun.

The FBI load also shot to the sights on the fixed-sight revolvers of the time. As you noted, this can be an issue in ammo choice. In general, older fixed-sight revolvers need 148-158-grain ammo; my '72 production Detective Special needs 125-130-grain ammo to hit POA while my S&W M49 produced about the same time needs the heavier bullets. My 642 needs the lighter bullets, and my 3" and 4" M10s and my Colt Official Police need the heavier ones.

The R-P LHP load has been pretty consistent over time. Your friend got 870 fps from his gun, the FBI test got 871, and it runs 855 from my 3" M10. It's what I carry in my M10s.

[PNWTO]

Are we really doing tissue crush again?


https://giphy.com/gifs/season-13-the-simpsons-13x14-l2JeiuwmhZlkrVOkU

[DanTheWolfman]

DanTheWolfman - First, Thanks! That was a lot of work. Some notes...

On this forum, any data that comes from other than "official" 10% ordnance gel will get the side-eye. Good, bad, or indifferent, it is what it is. Also on this forum, expansion is considered nice to have, but adequate penetration is considered necessary and non-negotiable. That's why the default recommendation for snubby ammo on this forum tends to be a full wadcutter - it doesn't expand, but it penetrates 14-16". I understand that the consensus on other forums may be different.

The link you gave didn't work for me. A short search yielded this one (https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/) which does. Note that the three .38 LHP loads are pretty close in performance. These are known collectively as the "FBI load", and one or the other was the standard issue for agents for their 3" M13s. Ed Mireles used the R-P version to end the famous "Miami shootout". It was a common load for many LE agencies of the time because it worked and it wasn't a .357 Magnum. My understanding is that the .357 Silvertip load was approved for a very limited number of agents. If you've never shot a full-power .357 load from a K frame, it's pretty spicy. A 50-round qual wouldn't be much fun.

The FBI load also shot to the sights on the fixed-sight revolvers of the time. As you noted, this can be an issue in ammo choice. In general, older fixed-sight revolvers need 148-158-grain ammo; my '72 production Detective Special needs 125-130-grain ammo to hit POA while my S&W M49 produced about the same time needs the heavier bullets. My 642 needs the lighter bullets, and my 3" and 4" M10s and my Colt Official Police need the heavier ones.

The R-P LHP load has been pretty consistent over time. Your friend got 870 fps from his gun, the FBI test got 871, and it runs 855 from my 3" M10. It's what I carry in my M10s.

You're welcome. I've done stuff on a couple different classic snub .38s, and fired the hot Federal 125 and 158 sjhp rapid fire listed above, as well as Critical Duty & the 145 Winchester loads from two 3" mags 34.5 and 37 ounce Revos.

[Lester Polfus]

To be clear... All those penetration numbers are with clear gel.

Yes. I think it's important to be transparent about that.

[DanTheWolfman]

Test Barrel Lengths need to be taken into consideration.
Here is VISTA LE Speer Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing & Steel REAL GEL Data for .38 and .357 Gold Dot...take note of the miss-placed mistake .38 GD Weight and Retained Weight. The 945 fps listed matches there 125+p Load Fired from a 4V barrel & the Terminal Ballistics Listed for such. The 135+P Short Barrel load when looked at individually does not give any Gel testing data fyi. .357 fired from 4V barrel.
98842

Here is Hornady LE Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing REAL GEL Data
S&W 637 1.875"
98843

988479884998844988489884698845

[DanTheWolfman]

Yes, when I say MDF results it is one person's particular protocol w/ 4-Layer Denim 3" clear Ballistics 10%, a 1/4" MDF=Medium Density Fiber Board...followed by a 10% Clear Ballistics Block. On seeing fairly close correlation, I have gone over all available results COMPARING very favorably so far in ALL Calibers to all Official Data from VistaLE 4-layer Heavy Clothing for Speer Gold Dots & Federal HSTs as well as well as Hornady LE Critical Duty & Critical Defense 4-layer Heavy Clothing Results. So it bares further investigation like was given to Knox Gel results. I've provided all the more official data I can.

Comparing Official 4-Layer Heavy Clothing results to 4-layer Denim+MDF Protocol Results. These results are certainly far closer to Real Gel results, then the lower density Clear Gel by itslef
HST MDF Results 9mm=3.734 cu " TC(Vista Real Gel=3.799), .40=5.665 cu" TC(Vista Real Gel=6.283), .45=8.105 cu" TC (Vista Real Gel=8.08). Vista Data these rounds .45 is 2.126X more Tissue Crush than the 9mm round, & 1.286x More Tissue Crush than the .40. Gun Sam's MDF Data this .45 round is 2.17X more than this 9mm, and 1.43x More than this .40 round. Vista's 180 gr .40 Data is 1.653X more Tissue Crush then this 124plus P 9mm, and Gun Sam's MDF Data 1.517x More Tissue Crush than this 9mm round. Overall very Similar Results.

Gold Dot data More MDF 9mm 124+p ur 3.2" 16.5 .544=3.84 cu in" Tissue Crush compares to 4" Vista REAL GEL 14.13 .60=4.04 cu in" TC . This .38 gold dot load 2" 12" .508=2.43" vs Vista Real Gel 11" .576=2.87 from 4v"

More Gold Dot data Ur 165gr .40 5" barrel 19" .616=5.66 cu in" Tissue Crush vs Spear REAL GEL 4 Layer Data from 4" Barrel 18" .618 5.4 cu in" Tissue Crush. Underwood 125gr .357 GD 21" .594= (only 18" Given per FBI Protocol) 4.99 cu in TC" (compared to Critical Duty TC 3.67").

Critical Duty Data .45 MDF Protocol 17" .615=TC Adj Volume 5.05" Compared to Official Hornady REAL GEL 14.5 .69=5.42 cu in" .357 MDF 14.5 .558-TC Adj Volume 3.55" Compared to Hornady REAL GEL 14.4 .57=3.67" (8V" barrel).[[/U][/B]

If Tissue Crush doesn't matter given all I've read from Dr. Fackler & DrGkr in the past as it relates to pistol calibers, as well a wound profiles and comments on .30 Carbine (and also some interesting comments regarding 5.7mm p90 long barrel vs 5.56/6.8/.300) please explain how it suddenly doesn't matter?

Also, some interesting comments here
98861

[Jason M]

Interesting post

[blues]

Interesting post


What's a "Smith See Through" ? Can't you get a slap upside the head for that? Oh, it must be "open" class. :rolleyes:

[Jason M]

What's a "Smith See Through" ? Can't you get a slap upside the head for that? Oh, it must be "open" class. :rolleyes:

Google it...

But be sure to keep that name outta your mouth whilst doing so.

[blues]

Google it...

But be sure to keep that name outta your mouth whilst doing so.


(Just did.)

LOL! It takes all kinds.

[revchuck38]

Yes. I think it's important to be transparent about that.

I see what you did there...:rolleyes:

[Lester Polfus]

I see what you did there...:rolleyes:

Yeah, these discussions can be a little opaque sometimes.

[Lost River]

https://i.imgur.com/Bj87uDtl.png

[Totem Polar]

Yeah, these discussions can be a little opaque sometimes.

This one never really gelled up.

[03RN]

(Just did.)

LOL! It takes all kinds.

Lol


https://youtu.be/VzEQ2u_ibGM

[Lester Polfus]

This one never really gelled up.

Right? If we're going to penetrate the depths of this and expand our knowledge we need to stay on track.

[Totem Polar]

Right? If we're going to penetrate the depths of this and expand our knowledge we need to stay on track.

Absolutely, if we really want to crush it.

[feudist]

This one never really gelled up.

Can you expand on that? The volume of numbers is failing to penetrate my assorted barriers.

[PNWTO]

This thread makes me want some Jell-O shots.

Bah-dum-tiss…

[Lester Polfus]

This thread makes me want some Jell-O shots.

Bah-dum-tiss…

If you combine that with a side of grilled strasbourg goat, you'd have one shot stopping..

[feudist]

If you combine that with a side of grilled strasbourg goat, you'd have one shot stopping..

Good ol Corporal Ed Sanow. I wonder whatever became of him?

[PNWTO]

Good ol Corporal Ed Sanow. I wonder whatever became of him?

https://ides.org/ed-sanow

Seems like he has Holy Stopping Power now.