PR-24 (tonfa) two-hand?

[No.6]

Street theatre is back in season and so people are posting videos of officers and mobs.

What struck me is that both in a video about LA and in one shot in NY, the officers are holding their PR-24s with right hand on the handle and left hand on the end of the baton. That seemed to work for them when pushing someone back -- two hands and a short stick between.

Both videos, however, had officers striking while still holding with two hands -- and in both videos the strikes were almost entirely useless (almost wrote 'pointless' but of course, it's a stick!). Not punching with either end, nor poking with a two hand grip, but sort of clubbing down awkwardly.

Is this something being taught for retention purposes? CYA lawsuit defense? Or secret squirrel tonfa technique?

(disclaimer: not LEO, only kobudo guy).

[BobM]

I’ve not had any PR-24 training since the 90s but I don’t recall any two hand strike techniques.

[Cory]

I trained on the PR24 in like '09 with periodic refreshers until '14. The only 2 handed stuff we did was striking with the long end of the baton about mid rib level.

I've never put it into action, and have no idea how effective it is.

[Coyotesfan97]

The first technique you’d described is one I’ve always liked. It’s a jab with a lot of force. You can also use that to drag the short end of the baton diagonally across the chest. You’d use that to get someone out of your way. That hurts!

The only two handed strike I can recall was holding the short end of the stick with your support hand. Strong hand on the handle. You rotate your hips into the strike and your support hand pulls/pivots the short end into the strike. I can’t remember what the strike was called. When I went through the PR24 training in the early 90s the instructor said DPS was using it effectively against violent, striking miners.

There were some two handed control moves that were quickly forgotten.

I carried a PR in uniform most of my career. We were issued short ASPs and they were useless. When I drove I could keep the PR in my belt ring with the short stick under my armpit. When I stepped out it’d drop right in the ring.

[BobM]

I never hit anyone with one but I did a pretty good arm lock in a bar parking lot one night. We had the collapsible ones (PR24X I think)

[No.6]

The first technique you’d described is one I’ve always liked. It’s a jab with a lot of force. You can also use that to drag the short end of the baton diagonally across the chest. You’d use that to get someone out of your way. That hurts!

"Tsuki" would be the kobudo term for it, with the appropriate term in front for high/middle/low.



The only two handed strike I can recall was holding the short end of the stick with your support hand. Strong hand on the handle. You rotate your hips into the strike and your support hand pulls/pivots the short end into the strike. I can’t remember what the strike was called. When I went through the PR24 training in the early 90s the instructor said DPS was using it effectively against violent, striking miners.


That's the one they're trying, but there's no hip and no base foot, so it comes off as 'pawing' at the pantifa. IMO they'd have been better off doing it with an Irish stick fighting size, about the length that used to be called, appropriately, riot sticks.

[Coyotesfan97]

"Tsuki" would be the kobudo term for it, with the appropriate term in front for high/middle/low.



That's the one they're trying, but there's no hip and no base foot, so it comes off as 'pawing' at the pantifa. IMO they'd have been better off doing it with an Irish stick fighting size, about the length that used to be called, appropriately, riot sticks.

I’ve still got my old riot stick and my PR in the garage. The riot stick used to ride in the car too.

[UNM1136]

The first technique you’d described is one I’ve always liked. It’s a jab with a lot of force. You can also use that to drag the short end of the baton diagonally across the chest. You’d use that to get someone out of your way. That hurts!

The only two handed strike I can recall was holding the short end of the stick with your support hand. Strong hand on the handle. You rotate your hips into the strike and your support hand pulls/pivots the short end into the strike. I can’t remember what the strike was called. When I went through the PR24 training in the early 90s the instructor said DPS was using it effectively against violent, striking miners.

There were some two handed control moves that were quickly forgotten.

I carried a PR in uniform most of my career. We were issued short ASPs and they were useless. When I drove I could keep the PR in my belt ring with the short stick under my armpit. When I stepped out it’d drop right in the ring.

"Power swing". Instructors used to tell us your attacker would find his knee cap on the next block. You can also hold the long extended portion with your support hand and jab for "power jabs".

There were also locks, drags, and takedowns. The Georgia State Trooper takedown became the "Strong Side Takedown", IIRC.

But my Manadanock stuff is nearly three decades out of date. Mas SouthNarc

pat

[Mas]

Street theatre is back in season and so people are posting videos of officers and mobs.

What struck me is that both in a video about LA and in one shot in NY, the officers are holding their PR-24s with right hand on the handle and left hand on the end of the baton. That seemed to work for them when pushing someone back -- two hands and a short stick between.

Both videos, however, had officers striking while still holding with two hands -- and in both videos the strikes were almost entirely useless (almost wrote 'pointless' but of course, it's a stick!). Not punching with either end, nor poking with a two hand grip, but sort of clubbing down awkwardly.

Is this something being taught for retention purposes? CYA lawsuit defense? Or secret squirrel tonfa technique?

(disclaimer: not LEO, only kobudo guy).

No.6, could you post a link to those videos? The verbal description in the original post doesn't sound like any of the approved Monadnock techniques with the PR-24. The power spin -- known as the "power stroke" on LAPD -- is a horizontal spin performed with the dominant hand on the handle and the support hand on the short end, with the impact of course delivered by the long end.

[No.6]

I think (probably) this is one I viewed ... the net being what it is, there are lots of variations on this theme going around in the last couple days, so this might not be *the* one I first saw that inspired the post. Dug it up from mobile and believe this will post OK. This link embeds a Rumble video that unfortunately requires a login, and I think this link doesn't.

https://truthsocial.com/@DC_Draino/posts/108546693784394661

(And tangentially, having gotten it on the bigger screen, our officer looks like he switched the left hand to the short end as Mas describes (0.08), but still didn't accomplish much as our boy is back at it by 0:14).

In the midst of the search for it, found an overhead moment of exactly the same scene from ABC7 (https://youtu.be/AVlDD2yxcHE?t=41) at 0:41 so that's helpful. (Great, seeing ABC7 makes me think of George Fischbeck's weather broadcasts)

Still IMO too short of a stick to make use of two hands because the radius of rotation is further shortened by the second hand -- it's like a very short kids' bat used this way. Maybe if he'd been able to follow through? But still, the one handed spinning hit (naname uchi) is stronger, more range, and on recovery can be used again on the reverse stroke to the same or alternate target (akin to Filipino abenico) plus then the free hand remains live for eventualities. That's more training though.

[Mas]

I think (probably) this is one I viewed ... the net being what it is, there are lots of variations on this theme going around in the last couple days, so this might not be *the* one I first saw that inspired the post. Dug it up from mobile and believe this will post OK. This link embeds a Rumble video that unfortunately requires a login, and I think this link doesn't.

https://truthsocial.com/@DC_Draino/posts/108546693784394661

(And tangentially, having gotten it on the bigger screen, our officer looks like he switched the left hand to the short end as Mas describes (0.08), but still didn't accomplish much as our boy is back at it by 0:14).

In the midst of the search for it, found an overhead moment of exactly the same scene from ABC7 (https://youtu.be/AVlDD2yxcHE?t=41) at 0:41 so that's helpful. (Great, seeing ABC7 makes me think of George Fischbeck's weather broadcasts)

Still IMO too short of a stick to make use of two hands because the radius of rotation is further shortened by the second hand -- it's like a very short kids' bat used this way. Maybe if he'd been able to follow through? But still, the one handed spinning hit (naname uchi) is stronger, more range, and on recovery can be used again on the reverse stroke to the same or alternate target (akin to Filipino abenico) plus then the free hand remains live for eventualities. That's more training though.
Thanks. Looks as if they’re pushing, not striking.

[Coyotesfan97]

"Power swing". Instructors used to tell us your attacker would find his knee cap on the next block. You can also hold the long extended portion with your support hand and jab for "power jabs".

There were also locks, drags, and takedowns. The Georgia State Trooper takedown became the "Strong Side Takedown", IIRC.

But my Manadanock stuff is nearly three decades out of date. Mas SouthNarc

pat

That’s what it was called. My instructor said DPS was breaking legs with it. I think we were taught the power jabs. I always used the short end for jabs. I liked the control a lot better.

Just a short story. One New Years Eve two Officers decided to go into a back yard to break up a party. Why I don’t know. Surprisingly they got surrounded and put out a 999. I responded and almost immediately decided there were way too many people running around to take the dog. I moved up to the gate with PR24 in hand and as I did one of the losers walking out decided to put a shoulder in me. He immediately got a short jab in the side of the ribs, protested, and decided to move on as I’d immediately gone into a position to strike. I wrote a pretty good supp on it. The whole mess went to IA but I never got called up. :cool:

[UNM1136]

"Power spin" and IIRC ther were one handed jabs, short end jabs, power jabs (which I think you are describing as your preferred) and long extended jabs.

pat

[Coyotesfan97]

"Power spin" and IIRC ther were one handed jabs, short end jabs, power jabs (which I think you are describing as your preferred) and long extended jabs.

pat

I was taught to put my support hand on the short end for the jab. I think that was part of the power jab.

[BobM]

I was taught to put my support hand on the short end for the jab. I think that was part of the power jab.

That sounds familiar.

[No.6]

Just to provide reference I had a moment to take photos -- was raining so you get an indoor wall and left-handed as that's the wall I could easily find without stuff on it :D

https://suibukan.blob.core.windows.net/$web/Own/IMG_1407sm.jpg
Here's the short end strike ('chudan tsuki' -- or 'middle thrust' to avoid treating ordinary Japanese words like a big deal). All these are delivered straight like Wing Chun, not like boxing jabs or karate punches.

https://suibukan.blob.core.windows.net/$web/Own/IMG_1408sm.jpg
TMA long end strike ('spear' or 'nuki' in the jargon). Probably not taught this way in PR-24 classes 'cause it's vital the short end gets locked into the wrist and the little and ring fingers are key to that inward and upward pressure. Otherwise too loose for social purposes.

https://suibukan.blob.core.windows.net/$web/Own/IMG_1409sm.jpg
My interpretation of what I think Coyote said. It's reinforced, but you give up a free hand and a bit of range (and I had to take the photo with the clicker in my teeth). IMO the front foot should be the same as whichever hand is in front (left in this example) to preserve some of the range benefit of using the long end.

https://suibukan.blob.core.windows.net/$web/Own/IMG_1410sm.jpg
Alternate method (stronger and even less range). Right hand forward so right foot forward.

[DDTSGM]

The long extended had the pool cue jab, the power chop, figure eight strike, power stroke, and setups for takedowns and armlocks.

[Mas]

No.6, while that may be part of tonfa discipline, there's nothing like that in the PR-24 repertoire. The PR-24 variation of that jab would be with the short end striking, dominant hand on the vertical handle and support hand on the short end, with the long end tucked between torso and upper arm. Light jab is performed with just hands and arms, full power with hips turning into the blow and optionally stepping forward into the strike.

While the PR-24's inventor Lon Anderson was inspired by the tonfa and adapted a number of tonfa techniques, the one you show was not one of them. With greater length than the traditional tonfa of kobu-do and its rounded profile, the PR-24 was in my opinion a much more versatile instrument.

[No.6]

No.6, while that may be part of tonfa discipline, there's nothing like that in the PR-24 repertoire. The PR-24 variation of that jab would be with the short end striking, dominant hand on the vertical handle and support hand on the short end, with the long end tucked between torso and upper arm. Light jab is performed with just hands and arms, full power with hips turning into the blow and optionally stepping forward into the strike.

While the PR-24's inventor Lon Anderson was inspired by the tonfa and adapted a number of tonfa techniques, the one you show was not one of them. With greater length than the traditional tonfa of kobu-do and its rounded profile, the PR-24 was in my opinion a much more versatile instrument.

Agreed on most counts (for instance, the TMA tonfa curriculum is always two tonfa, which is not very applicable to 2022). My particular branch goes in for the 21" and change, round Shureido tonfa (or long side about an inch past the elbow for average sized American male peeps). Round is good in a force/in^2 fashion. I've never used the square-ish ones. Also, in agreement with your position, a) the aluminum construction of the 24 holds up better than the traditional construction, and b) the stop handle ('Trumbull'?) on the 24 is a refinement even on the best traditional tonfa.

Please don't get any impression this thread is intending for me to teach anything to this group -- I'm already aware of the derivation of the modern tool. I posted because the recent events made me curious as to the why behind those applications and here is where I've found good opinions from the blue perspective. On the internet especially I tend to pose my questions in the form of opinions because frequently people want to have the last word (like me, here, answering 'yes' in two paragraphs).