The “I need a .45 but do I need a 1911?” thread

[awp_101]

Since the Art and Science thread is getting more questions about other .45s and general 1911 questions, how about a thread for some of those discussions not directly related to keeping a 1911 fat and happy.

I’m as guilty as anyone else so consider this an attempt at atonement…;)

[Super77]

Seems to me H&K basically solved all the problems 1911s can have.

[HeavyDuty]

I have a very soft space in my heart for 1911s, and have recently picked up two additional ones. But I am under no illusions that they are superior to other options. I have a M&P45C with a second slightly longer top end (not sure what length it is, it’s packed) and also a G41. Either of those are arguably better .45s, but they don’t have the raw appeal of a good 1911. Just my opinion.

[MattyD380]

I just got a Smith & Wesson 4506-1. In its inaugural range trip, I found it to be a wonderful shooter: accurate, comfortable, reliable, shoots right on POA.

90371

I plan to do kind of a comparo write up between that and the P220.

90374

But, yeah... .45s...

I like them. Something satisfying about the recoil impulse. I tend to shoot .45s accurately, too. And, most are single-stacks, so they kind of inherently carry well. I've found a P220 to be a very comfortable--capable--DA/SA carry gun. The grip is a tad long, but I feel like I can still get away with it in a T-shirt as long as it has a somewhat relaxed fit. I think the 4506-1 is probably gonna be a winter-only carry, though; it's grip is even longer.

[mmc45414]

I haven't been watching the A&S thread since mine seem to be running fine, but will say I have always enjoyed my M&P 45s. I sold the Compact but still have the full size. Bought many of my M&P holsters to fit it, since the full size 9/40 guns are only 1/4" shorter.

ETA Pic. This one spent many years in the safe next to the bed in this configuration:
90376

[sharps54]

Seems to me H&K basically solved all the problems 1911s can have.

The safety isn’t quite in the right place for me, LEM can solve that though.

[revchuck38]

I've got two Colt Series 70 1911s in .45, a Gubmint Model and a Commander. I've also got two S&W M&P45 1.0s, a compact and a full size. It's been a couple or three years since the Colts have seen a holster. OTOH, I would happy with the compact M&P45 as my only "big" carry gun. Just my opinion...

[Duces Tecum]

Following.

[OlongJohnson]

Seems to me H&K basically solved all the problems 1911s can have.

If you run a USP in condition 1 as an SAO, it is the lowest-priced, most reliable, most durable, double-stack, poly frame 1911 ever made. Same (except 8 rounds) with HK45 if you prefer, since the fire control system is the same, and it's even more 1911-like. The factory match trigger even makes the SA pretty darned decent.

Unfortunately, for those of us who like DA/SA, the H&K DA suxx, and there's precious little to do about it.

I think of the P220 as a lightweight Commander-sized, DA/SA 1911. There are also a few steel-frame versions if you like that better. All you have to do is buy P220-1 factory mags and they will run perfectly. And fix any manufacturing defects in the particular gun you get. Triggers can be cleaned up and even made pretty awesome with factory springs. Parts need replacing at regular intervals, but I don't think it's much worse than a 1911. I like the P220 with Hogue G10 grips better than any 1911 I've ever handled or shot.

I had a few nice 1911s, but I don't miss them except to look at. I only have USPs and P220s now for .45 launchers. Oh, and a Contender.

[HCM]

Since the Art and Science thread is getting more questions about other .45s and general 1911 questions, how about a thread for some of those discussions not directly related to keeping a 1911 fat and happy.

I’m as guilty as anyone else so consider this an attempt at atonement…;)

Why do you “need” a .45 ?

At this point it seems like the only “real” drivers for getting a 45 are:

1) I need to be able to shoot .45 Super to defend against large animals like Alaska brown bears, polar bears etc.

2) Someone is giving me free .45 ammo

Having been down the non-1911 .45 Road with: SIG p220, S&W 645, HK USP /HK45, M&P 45s, and G21/41 The answer is I don’t actually need a 45, And if I did me to 45 it would be an HK.

My old P220 duty gun will stay for nostalgia but as Burt Lancaster’s character said in “Valdez is Coming” it’s from “before I knew better.”

[JTQ]

Re-routing from other thread

Unless someone has very large hands, or is absolutely committed to Glock, I also think the M&P would probably be a better polymer .45 than a G21.

The actual Hilton Yam article seems to be gone from the internet now, but he is quoted here...

edit to add: had to change this link too

https://www.military.com/kitup/2013/02/hilton-yam-10-8-performance-glock.html

If we were comparing the Glock 21 to the M&P 45, then let’s just stop here and declare the M&P .45 the winner and move on. Superior ergonomics by far, good accuracy, and availability of thumb safety to help transition 1911 shooters make the M&P 45 the clear winner in my opinion. Add a viable and reliable factory 14 round magazine, and you pretty much have the whole package wrapped up with a bow.

[JTQ]

Of course most long time 1911 users have probably read this article from the late Pat Rogers

edit to add: must have got lost in the copy/paste effort

here it is https://www.swatmag.com/article/putting-down-the-man-gun/

[sharps54]

Of course most long time 1911 users have probably read this article from the late Pat Rogers

"Putting Down the Man Gun" https://www.swatmag.com/article/putt...n-the-man-gun/

Sadly comes up as 404 not found now, at least for me.

[OlongJohnson]

Of course most long time 1911 users have probably read this article from the late Pat Rogers

"Putting Down the Man Gun" https://www.swatmag.com/article/putt...n-the-man-gun/


As I wanted a manageable trigger, this excluded single-action/double-action or double-action-only pistols.

To my way of thinking, those SA/DA pistols are abominations. Building in a bad trigger only takes away our ability to hit, and while they can be managed, they also require a lot more training as well as more ammunition to bring people up to a level of acceptable competence.

Are we allowed a "Harrumph?"

[HeavyDuty]

Sadly comes up as 404 not found now, at least for me.

https://www.swatmag.com/article/putting-down-the-man-gun/

[sharps54]

It isn’t so much a need to have a .45 as a want to have one. :cool:

[El Cid]

I love the 1911. I grew up learning on one. I also think every American should own one. But in today’s world I don’t feel comfortable out in public with a single stack anything. That rules out the P220. Although I don’t think I could trust a late model production Sig anyway. When I was still military my summer gun for CCL purposes was a USP45C. Great gun and allowed cocked and locked. But again…. 8+1.

I carried a Glock 21 Gen 3 on duty for several years and it was a great weapon. After a good friend let me shoot his G21 Gen 4 I was hooked. I legitimately thought he had reduced power hand loads in it, but it was factory 230gr ball. If I went back to 45 as a carry gun it would be my G21 Gen4 without question. I’m sure the HK45 is a great option. And GJM almost convinced me to get a USP45 Expert with his bear gun thread. But the Glock is a no-brainer for me. Simple and proven. And I’ve been carrying and competing with Glocks for over 16 years now.

[No.6]

See https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?29478-Beretta-PX4-Storm-45-High-round-count-long-duration-usage

It's not the only option -- you could find an old 8045 (but not mine).

[OlongJohnson]

And GJM almost convinced me to get a USP45 Expert with his bear gun thread.

It was discussed that the fitted barrels of the Elite, Expert, and Tactical may make them slightly less robust in operation where foreign material/dust/debris is a potential issue. They all use the O-ring to center the muzzle, and the barrel hoods are fit to the slides for lockup, so all those clearances are more subject to interference. For a maximally reliable USP .45 in the field, get the moo-cow-fU(& standard version.

[RevolverRob]

All non-1911 .45 discussions begin and end at the HK45C/HK45CT with an LEM.

[D-der]

While I've owned, shot, carried 1911's for 35 + years
and still own DW, STI and a SAC Colt... unless a 1911
is calling you, I'd go HK, M&P, Glock

[El Cid]

It was discussed that the fitted barrels of the Elite, Expert, and Tactical may make them infinitesimally robust in operation where foreign material/dust/debris is a potential issue. They all use the O-ring to center the muzzle, and the barrel hoods are fit to the slides for lockup, so all those clearances are more subject to interference. For a maximally reliable USP .45 in the field, get the moo-cow-fU(& standard version.

Oh I kept to my Glock path. Chose a G40 with Underwood 140gr penetrators.

[RJ]

Jumping on board.

I need want a 1911 to shoot in this competition: www.thepinshoot.com.

Here’s me last week, shooting it for the first time with a borrowed pistol:


https://youtu.be/L-IfJnGzGlM

The pins are 3 lbs something, at 21 feet. Most all are shooting 5” 1911s in .45ACP. Scoring is knocking the pin to the ground, 9mm doesn’t cut it.

A Glock 21SF is an option, but I have not shot one yet. I disliked the hinged trigger on my M&P 1.0 immensely. I don’t see buying another M&P unless S&W changes that. The 1911 I shot pointed well for me; I was able to get good hits, and the trigger was crisp.

I am a lefty, with size M hands. Based input on p-f, I’m looking a a Ruger SR1911 or a Springfield Garrison Loaded. I’d like to keep it around $1k or less.

The Ruger, based on positive reviews, great customer service stories, and satisfaction with several Ruger revolvers has me leaning that way. I would have to install an ambi safety, but absent that, the Ruger looks like the most affordable reliable 1911 that meets my needs.

[JTQ]

Jumping on board,


A Glock 21SF is an option, but I had not shot one yet.
As mentioned in the other thread, a Gen 4 Glock is the same as an SF Glock. Unless you live in California, and you don't, there is no advantage to buying an SF Glock over a Gen 4.

[RJ]

As mentioned in the other thread, a Gen 4 Glock is the same as an SF Glock. Unless you live in California, and you don't, there is no advantage to buying an SF Glock over a Gen 4.

I missed that, but understand now. Makes sense. Thanks.

[sharps54]

Jumping on board.

I need want a 1911 to shoot in this competition: www.thepinshoot.com.

Here’s me last week, shooting it for the first time:


https://youtu.be/L-IfJnGzGlM

The pins are 3 lbs something, at 21 feet. Most all are shooting 5” 1911s in .45ACP. Scoring is knocking the pin to the ground, 9mm doesn’t cut it.

A Glock 21SF is an option, but I have not shot one yet. I disliked the hinged trigger on my M&P 1.0 immensely. I don’t see buying another M&P unless S&W changes that. The 1911 I shot pointed well for me; I was able to get good hits, and the trigger was crisp.

I am a lefty, with size M hands. Based input on p-f, I’m looking a a Ruger SR1911 or a Springfield Garrison Loaded. I’d like to keep it around $1k or less.

The Ruger, based on positive reviews, great customer service stories, and satisfaction with several Ruger revolvers has me leaning that way. I would have to install an ambi safety, but absent that, the Ruger looks like the most affordable reliable 1911 that meets my needs.

The Ruger Target may be an option for your uses, comes with the ambi safety and adjustable sights for not much more
money.

[Clusterfrack]

Since the Art and Science thread is getting more questions about other .45s and general 1911 questions, how about a thread for some of those discussions not directly related to keeping a 1911 fat and happy.


Why do you need a .45? I abandoned the caliber when I sold my 1911s, and have not regretted it.

If I had to use .45, it would be in a Glock 21.

[Suvorov]

I just got a Smith & Wesson 4506-1. In its inaugural range trip, I found it to be a wonderful shooter: accurate, comfortable, reliable, shoots right on POA.

[

Plus a shooting session with it also counts as a upper body workout!


For the OP - I’ll be honest, if I could only keep one of my .45s to shoot - I would most likely keep my M&P. To my mind it shoots every bit as well as my 1911s, has a wonderful Apex trigger, a perfect balance of magazine capacity and size, manual safety plus a few passive safeties, and is just as ergonomic. My 1st gen M&P45 has been a wonderful pistol, I can only imagine how much better the 2.0 is.

My USPc LEM would be a close second just because the damn USP is such a solid functional gun and the compact version is actually small enough I can shoot it well.

[TWR]

Well I'll add that my gen 1 M&P45 is the softest, most accurate shooting 45 I've owned. I did APEX the trigger, added Trijicon HD XR's and stippled it a bit, shot a match or two with it but I let it sit in the safe mostly. I can't explain why but I never get it out anymore. A buddy bought a gen 2 after shooting mine and loves his too but has the same problem, he just doesn't shoot it much anymore.

I bought a G21 gen 4 and the M&P just fit me so much better I sent the G21 down the road.

But everyone needs a 1911...

[GJM]

FIFY


All non-1911 .45 discussions begin and end at the HK USP FS with the Match Hybrid trigger

[45dotACP]

People have it twisted.

The best Glocks are the ones in 45 ACP.

The best 1911s are the ones in 9mm.

I have not fired a single .45 that was as soft shooting as a Glock 21 and I have not fired a single (non 1911) .45 that was as accurate as a Glock 21. And I have not fired a single 9mm Glock (even the gen 5s) that was as accurate as a Glock 21.

Similarly, I have never fired a single 9mm that was as soft shooting as a 5" 1911

If you want a plastic people popper in 9mm that will give you X ring accuracy all day long, you aren't looking for Glocks. You probably want a VP9 or a PPQ or a M&P9 with Apex goodies because most every plastic 9mm people popper is reliable, most every one will hold 15+1, so for me the deciding factor is going to be accuracy.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[MattyD380]

Plus a shooting session with it also counts as a upper body workout!


For the OP - I’ll be honest, if I could only keep one of my .45s to shoot - I would most likely keep my M&P. To my mind it shoots every bit as well as my 1911s, has a wonderful Apex trigger, a perfect balance of magazine capacity and size, manual safety plus a few passive safeties, and is just as ergonomic. My 1st gen M&P45 has been a wonderful pistol, I can only imagine how much better the 2.0 is.

My USPc LEM would be a close second just because the damn USP is such a solid functional gun and the compact version is actually small enough I can shoot it well.

You ain't wrong. The 4506-1 is a semi truck of forged, stainless... masculinity. But it shoots damn good.

I've heard the M&P45s are excellent. Never tried one, though. I had a USPc .45 (DA/SA) for a while. It was so nicely made and a good size overall. I wanted to love it, but... the grip just didn't agree with me. I liked the HK45c better, overall. But still--the Sig .45s (P245 & P220) always shot better for me than the HKs.

I'll say that I normally can't stand Glocks or Glock-like triggers/ergos... but the one time I shot a G30 & G36, I found they both shot right on POA and grouped well. The G36 also had a FTFeed. The G30 didn't.

1911s obviously shoot great. I've had two Colt Commanders and neither experience was stellar--though they were accurate AF.

Another damn nice .45 I had was the Beretta Cougar. So smooth, soft and accurate. I had FTFeed issues with mine... but, in retrospect I think it was because I was overlubing the cam track with super heavy moly grease (because I thought that's what you should do). Beretta currently makes the PX4 in .45, as well--I'm sure it's a great shooter.

[awp_101]

Why do you need a .45? I abandoned the caliber when I sold my 1911s, and have not regretted it.

If I had to use .45, it would be in a Glock 21.

*I* don’t, this is the generic “I” covering anyone who isn’t sure if they just want to launch a .45 or if they want the 1911 experience as well.

My non-1911 choices would be M&P or USP but the odds of any new .45s moving into the safe are very very slim. My hands just won’t tolerate much anymore.

[JonInWA]

For me, it's been a Gen 3 Glock G21. Mine has seen thousands of rounds through it, has been used for duty, EDC, competitions (IDPA, steel plate, GSSF), hunting, wilderness hiking and has literally had precisely 1 hiccup-with a mis-sized bullet that was probably .47 caliber (Winchester White Box atound 10 or so years ago).

I feel very well holstered with either an Olen OWB, a old-school Blade Tech IWB, a Glock Sport-Combat OWB (probably THE, and pretty much the only value in a sub-$20 holster), and a Tactical Tailor custom tactical thigh holsters.

https://i.imgur.com/ZzfjrEkh.jpg

I have no issues with a HK 45 or USP 45. Perhaps unfairly (especially given the glowing reviews here on p-f) I still residually tar the M&P 45 with the endemic issues that plagued the M&P 9mm (at least until the 2.0s came out), so I would have no intention of getting one unless issued.

While I've previously used a segment of mountain bike inner tube on the receiver grip area, then a Warren Grip Assist sleeve, I'm not experimenting with Hogue's HandALL Beavertail grip sleeve. While it seems somewhat counterintuitive given the relatively large girthed G21 (especiall mine, a Gen 3 "Big Butt" (non-SF). I was previously pretty satisfied with the Warren Grip Assist, albeit with the fin cut down by about 50%:

https://i.imgur.com/3y05H2ih.jpg

Glock Extended slide release, Warren/Sevigney Carry irons (with the face of the front sight flourescent orange on topa of a white basecoat), Pierce Grip butt plug. Pretty sure I'm currently running a Glock "dot" connector with a Glock ciol trigger spring.

Best, Jon

[OlongJohnson]

I've seen so much garbage coming out of S&W factories across multiple model lines that I can't get my brain to take the idea of an M&P semi-auto seriously. I'm down to my M&P 340 J frame written about elsewhere on this site and a couple of 3953s that I'm leaning more and more toward getting rid of.

[Trukinjp13]

I’ve done the non 1911 .45 deal quite a few times.

If I am taking one into the shit- Hk45 in some flavor. Find whatever trigger/grip fits your needs and don’t look back.

For Sao fun- Sig p220sao is a damn fun and reliable setup.

Striker pistol-S&W M&P for me. They have very 1911ish ergos. The midsize is a sweet happy medium and you can have your safety if need be. (Sorry Sir Glock)

Just this dudes opinion. There are many many options out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JTQ]

... I still residually tar the M&P 45 with the endemic issues that plagued the M&P 9mm (at least until the 2.0s came out), so I would have no intention of getting one unless issued.



from DocGKR https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31781-Smith-and-WessonM-amp-P-in-45-your-thoughts/page8


From 1986-2010 I primarily used .45 Auto custom 1911's. In 2011, I switched to the M&P45. Like Angus McFee, the M&P45 was the pistol that caused me to stop using my beautiful custom 1911's. The M&P45's I've shot are nearly as accurate as a custom 1911, at a fraction the cost and are much easier to maintain.

[El Cid]

As mentioned in the other thread, a Gen 4 Glock is the same as an SF Glock. Unless you live in California, and you don't, there is no advantage to buying an SF Glock over a Gen 4.

I know the grip dimensions are the same. But does the SF use the double recoil spring like the Gen4/5’s do?

[randyho]

I came to 45 acp via a g21 sf. It's large, I'm not. But, I shoot it better than most of the guns I own, and it has never malfunctioned on me.

I picked up a pair of .45 acp 1911's since covid (enablers here are as bad as the mods) and am amazed by the triggers (first few pistols were glocks and I had no idea what I didn't know), but if there's a bump in the night, the 21sf's my preference.

This thread's a good argument for try them all first.

[DDTSGM]

I just got a Smith & Wesson 4506-1. In its inaugural range trip, I found it to be a wonderful shooter: accurate, comfortable, reliable, shoots right on POA.

I shoot those well in terms of accuracy at around .20 and .25 split speeds, but they never felt good. The grip seemed oblong to me, too narrow, for it's for and aft reach.

I've always loved shooting the Sig 220's.

[Joe in PNG]

For me, if I was to go with a .45, I want a 3" revolver, like an old Mod 25 or similar.

[Oldherkpilot]

Are we allowed a "Harrumph?"

Make it a double!😁

[JonInWA]

JTQ (and DocGKR);

I don't disagree with either of you (or Angus') assessment of the ergos of the M&P .45. While my M&P concerns are certainnly 9mm non 2.0 centric, I vaguely recall that there were a spated of OEM rusted magazine spring issueswith the M&P .45s, but I'm assuming that's long since been addressed and eridicated.

Unfortunately, due to the protracted seemingly Wack-A-Mole approach S&W used to address with the 9mm M&P issues, given other vetted and credible alternatives (such as Glock G21 and HK 45, 45C and USP 45, and possibly Beretta PX4), I'm peresonally far more preferential to those choices than the M&P.

Yeah, that perhaps is unfair to the M&P. But they were pretty much hoisted on their own petard in my opinion. And notice that I'm pointedly not including the SIG P320 .45 in my short list, for similar historic reasons. Retributive karma can be a bitch...

Best, Jon

[sharps54]

JTQ (and DocGKR);

I don't disagree with either of you (or Angus') assessment of the ergos of the M&P .45. While my M&P concerns are certainnly 9mm non 2.0 centric, I vaguely recall that there were a spated of OEM rusted magazine spring issueswith the M&P .45s, but I'm assuming that's long since been addressed and eridicated.

Unfortunately, due to the protracted seemingly Wack-A-Mole approach S&W used to address with the 9mm M&P issues, given other vetted and credible alternatives (such as Glock G21 and HK 45, 45C and USP 45, and possibly Beretta PX4), I'm peresonally far more preferential to those choices than the M&P.

Yeah, that perhaps is unfair to the M&P. But they were pretty much hoisted on their own petard in my opinion. And notice that I'm pointedly not including the SIG P320 .45 in my short list, for similar historic reasons. Retributive karma can be a bitch...

Best, Jon

I’m the same, unlike HK I find the M17/M18 safety is perfectly positioned for me but I don’t trust SIG as a company.

[sharps54]

For me, if I was to go with a .45, I want a 3" revolver, like an old Mod 25 or similar.

I have a 6 1/2” 25-2 I bought from a member here and while I would love to have a Jovino style belly gun I can’t bring myself to disfigure this one.

[OlongJohnson]

And notice that I'm pointedly not including the SIG P320 .45 in my short list, for similar historic reasons.

If I didn't already have a USP .45 FS, I would definitely consider a P250 in .45. Has ten-round mags so it's natively ban-state compliant and two more than an HK45 FS. Sweet DAO trigger that's easier to master than the heavy/rough/inconsistent USP DA or the LEM. If the P250 compact 9mm is like an 18-round K frame, the .45 FS just might be analogous to an 11-shot S&W 325. I just don't have any basis to expect it to last a million years like a USP.

[Bergeron]

While I am currently fawning over a recently acquired 1911 in .45, it’s obvious that there are a slew of other quality designs that are superior across a range of applications.

Picking an alternative design for myself would be tough because of how well I like all those options- the M&P, USP/HK45, and Glock 21 would all be welcome in my safe, but I stick with the 1911- In addition my new .45, I also have the design in both 10mm and in .22 rimfire.

I’m not in any kind of need for a “serious” pistol except for my own self-defense and I’m not a threat in shooting competitions, but if I otherwise found myself needing a non-1911 .45, I would flip a coin and go either M&P or H&K.

[the Schwartz]

I know the grip dimensions are the same. But does the SF use the double recoil spring like the Gen4/5’s do?

No. Single spring on the full size Gen 3 RSAs

[11B10]

I'm terribly naive, but found it interesting that no one brought up the G30S. When I began carrying every day, I bought my first G30S after having shot just one that was borrowed from a friend at the range. I ended up owning 4 different G30S's until I drank the H&K KoolAid. My drinking that beverage coincided with two other things in my life. First, Mr. Arthur & his itis (osteo, thankfully) became firmly entrenched in my hands and second, 9MM became THE one and only (at least for me).

So.....wassup with the G30S, fellas? I mean, beside the fact that it's a Glock.

[Stephanie B]

{Shrug} I live in a high-cap ban state. A full-size 9mm means that I'm shooting a gun that is 30-40% empty right at the jump. So I might as well go for the bigger BBs in bigger guns.

For a smaller gun, a M&P Shield in 9mm is a good choice.

But most of the time, I'll still go with a K-frame or a Detective Special.

[sharps54]

I'm terribly naive, but found it interesting that no one brought up the G30S. When I began carrying every day, I bought my first G30S after having shot just one that was borrowed from a friend at the range. I ended up owning 4 different G30S's until I drank the H&K KoolAid. My drinking that beverage coincided with two other things in my life. First, Mr. Arthur & his itis (osteo, thankfully) became firmly entrenched in my hands and second, 9MM became THE one and only (at least for me).

So.....wassup with the G30S, fellas? I mean, beside the fact that it's a Glock.

For me it, like the 21, is a little big for my tiny hands and I think the grip is too short. It’s a shame is doesn’t have a G19 length grip.

[awp_101]

Are we allowed a "Harrumph?"


Make it a double!😁

90388

[the Schwartz]

This—


It isn’t so much a need to have a .45 as a want to have one. :cool:

—is 'where' I've been the last six months. Reading this thread has helped me by causing me to realize that a mandatory criteria for any ''want'' that I might have is that such a ''want''—at least for me—must also have a concomitant ''purpose'' beyond being a simple desire to possess the item in question. Otherwise, it would reside in the safe unloved and unused. What's the point of that? While I really appreciate the 1911, I have come to realize that my desire to have a 1911 has already been met by my utilitarian full-size USP45V1 (well...three of them). So, while I've considered the Dan Wesson Pointman pistols, I guess it is time to ''hang it up'' so to speak. It'd probably get a couple hundred rounds put through it, get cleaned meticulously and sit in the safe until I tired of seeing it languish there. I guess that that is the very definition of a ''first world problem'' if ever there was one.

Clarity has been achieved!

[Cheap Shot]

90390

Sorry, but at this point its tradition for me to post this (in my mind)

And still true!

You're welcome?

[Caballoflaco]

If one chooses to use an obsolescent caliber it might as well be from an obsolescent pistol.....


(Ducks and runs out of the room)

[11B10]

For me it, like the 21, is a little big for my tiny hands and I think the grip is too short. It’s a shame is doesn’t have a G19 length grip.





No doubt the G30S is definitely for bigger hands, or as in my case, long fingers. It always felt so solid when shooting - of course the .45 ACP's push had a lot to do with that. I posted before about how different the last G30S's trigger felt compared to the earlier ones I had. It felt as though it had been smoothed up - I loved it. I bought a G19.5 and the trigger felt exactly the same when dry firing.

[dave72]

A 1911 in 45 has rode with me through a interesting life never failed unless I did that being said is it for everyone ? nope If it is not then dont buy one make your own educated choice based on YOUR MISSION YOUR LIFESTYLE ECT here I thought we were free men allowed to make our own choices ? exercise that freedom

[RevolverRob]

Full-size Glocks (G20/G21) are the only guns I've ever picked up that actively caused me pain. The way the grip is shaped it causes me to instantly have pain in my median nerve in my carpal tunnel. Five rounds of shooting and my thumb and index finger go numb.

Complete non-starter for me.

The FS USP .45 with Match-Hybrid LEM IS near perfect. But the HK45C is like 50% of the way to Match-Hybrid LEM and more concealable. If HK would fix the stupid rail to fit a standard WML it would be a perfect gun. I have seen grip reductions on HK45s that make them nearly HK45C sized. That would be a close #2.

A combination of 45C + USP FS would be the best of both worlds.

[RJ]

Say I get one of these:


https://youtu.be/Bk4T7V7JnN8

This seems to be a decent gateway-drug level - a no frills gun at sub $500 on GB; ambi safety, decent fit and finish.

How hard is it to replace the dovetail front sight with say a FO? I have the simple 3/16” hex tool for a Glock, but on a 1911, is it as simple as pressing out the front sight and pressing in a new one?

[Exiledviking]

If I didn't already have a USP .45 FS, I would definitely consider a P250 in .45. Has ten-round mags so it's natively ban-state compliant and two more than an HK45 FS. Sweet DAO trigger that's easier to master than the heavy/rough/inconsistent USP DA or the LEM. If the P250 compact 9mm is like an 18-round K frame, the .45 FS just might be analogous to an 11-shot S&W 325. I just don't have any basis to expect it to last a million years like a USP.Maybe I'm missing something here, but the FS HK45 uses 10 round mags. The compact HK45C comes with 8 round mags.

And if I had to choose only one .45 ACP pistol, it would be a hard choice between the HK45 and USP45 Expert both with the match hybrid LEM trigger.

[Borderland]

Seems to me H&K basically solved all the problems 1911s can have.

Yep. HK45 nailed it. I made sure that being a 45 ACP shooter I had one. I still like my 1911's and enjoy shooting those, but for a lot of reasons the HP45 is the 21st century 1911. Designed to replace the 1911, and it would have, if the military hadn't scrapped the the 45 ACP. It's that good.

[Borderland]

I have a very soft space in my heart for 1911s, and have recently picked up two additional ones. But I am under no illusions that they are superior to other options. I have a M&P45C with a second slightly longer top end (not sure what length it is, it’s packed) and also a G41. Either of those are arguably better .45s, but they don’t have the raw appeal of a good 1911. Just my opinion.

1911 is iconic. I've had four and still have two. I love those things like a good K frame revolver. I will probably never have at least one. There are better 45 ACP pistols out there for someone who wants to shoot 5K rounds a without a glitch.

Here's one.

https://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/HK_News-Release_HK45-Endurance-Test_JAN_2011.pdf

I don't have 5K through mine (probably 2K) but it's never choked with hand loads. If I can produce a malfunction with handloads that'll happen.

Edit.

The trigger rubs my finger raw after 50 rds. The solution is a Band-Aid. I carry those in my range bag.

[Corse]

The M&P 45 seems to be the best dollar to performance 45 launcher. My 1.0 has proven reliable and extremely accurate in a perfect sized package for 10rds of 45. The Glocks are humongous, the HK45 is great, but also large. The only thing that stops me from getting a 2.0, is I’m holding out for a CORE.

[OlongJohnson]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but the FS HK45 uses 10 round mags. The compact HK45C comes with 8 round mags.

And if I had to choose only one .45 ACP pistol, it would be a hard choice between the HK45 and USP45 Expert both with the match hybrid LEM trigger.

You're right. It's been a couple years since I was looking into them and I got mixed up with the elephant foot nonsense.


Full-size Glocks (G20/G21) are the only guns I've ever picked up that actively caused me pain. The way the grip is shaped it causes me to instantly have pain in my median nerve in my carpal tunnel. Five rounds of shooting and my thumb and index finger go numb.

Complete non-starter for me.

The FS USP .45 with Match-Hybrid LEM IS near perfect. But the HK45C is like 50% of the way to Match-Hybrid LEM and more concealable. If HK would fix the stupid rail to fit a standard WML it would be a perfect gun. I have seen grip reductions on HK45s that make them nearly HK45C sized. That would be a close #2.

A combination of 45C + USP FS would be the best of both worlds.

When I first took my G34.3 to the range for a couple sessions, the lump on the undercut of the trigger guard lined up perfectly with a nerve passing through the knuckle of my social digit and did damage that took a couple months to resolve. I shaved the undercut and it was fine. If I worked for an agency that had a policy of Glocks with zero mods, I'd either have to get a medical exemption or quit.

A USP with a Pic rail and the hammer axle fixed would be close to perfect. I'd really prefer if they went to a trigger shaped more like a classic Sig trigger though. All H&K triggers curve forward excessively at the bottom. It can be a problem.

[Caballoflaco]

Say I get one of these:


https://youtu.be/Bk4T7V7JnN8

This seems to be a decent gateway-drug level - a no frills gun at sub $500 on GB; ambi safety, decent fit and finish.

How hard is it to replace the dovetail front sight with say a FO? I have the simple 3/16” hex tool for a Glock, but on a 1911, is it as simple as pressing out the front sight and pressing in a new one?


It shouldn’t be too hard to tap out with a hammer and punch or a pusher if you have one that fits. Looks like Dawson has one that fits the dovetail. Reading reviews on Dawson’s page it looks like some fit fine and some required fitting, which is par for the course with almost anything you buy for a 1911.

https://dawsonprecision.com/rock-island-1911-fiber-optic-front-sights/

[Paul D]

I needed one that could mount an optic (easily) and I could maintain (easily). This is my answer.

90391

[45dotACP]

Say I get one of these:


https://youtu.be/Bk4T7V7JnN8

This seems to be a decent gateway-drug level - a no frills gun at sub $500 on GB; ambi safety, decent fit and finish.

How hard is it to replace the dovetail front sight with say a FO? I have the simple 3/16” hex tool for a Glock, but on a 1911, is it as simple as pressing out the front sight and pressing in a new one?You ought to be able to tap the sight out and tap another in with a hammer and punch.

But it might also require the use of a small file on the sight itself.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[DamonL]

I have 2 friends with multiple Rock Islands. Not into high round counts, yet. I would say they seem to work ok. If you dont plan on investing a lot in customizing its cheap enough to try out a 1911 and you wont be afraid to tear it apart. They come in 9mm, too.

[Borderland]

If one chooses to use an obsolescent caliber it might as well be from an obsolescent pistol.....


(Ducks and runs out of the room)

9x19 Parabellum cartridge invented in 1901. 45 ACP invented in 1904. Which one is obsolete?

What am I missing?

I walked 1000' to the mailbox today and there was no mail. Then I realized it was federal holiday but I don't know exactly why and who is supposed to celebrate it.

I'm clueless.

[BWT]

I’d say go Glock 21 Gen 3. They show up used and they’re generally lights out accurate and cheap.

1911’s… I’ll just save you the heart ache and say Magazines are learning curve. I enjoy them and own 2.

But, man. My brother has a Glock 21 that was basically the family’s first handgun and that thing is like a laser all of these years later.

I’d be interested in one, but I’m chasing other things and the 33-45% premium on ammunition cost per round just doesn’t interest me.

[Catshooter]

You guys are all missing the boat. The answer is, of course, the .45 M&P Shield. Obviously.

What are y'all thinking?

[YVK]

I've a short answer to this question. It is only 271 pages https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2817-1911-picture-thread/page271

[RJ]

You ought to be able to tap the sight out and tap another in with a hammer and punch.

But it might also require the use of a small file on the sight itself.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

Thanks. I could probably do that.


Switching gears, here’s TGO showcasing the Springfield Loaded:


https://youtu.be/W567PFkCN8o

$1k, ambi, night sights, full length guide rod. This seems to be another out of the box option with a few more features.

Are there any practical advantages to stainless over say parkerized finish or is that simply personal preference?

[fatdog]

Are there any practical advantages to stainless over say parkerized finish

In the SE you are going to fight a life long battle with rust and discoloration and a parked gun. The surface must be kept well oiled, diligently.

I assume Springfield has sorted it out by now, but stainless slide and frames are notorious for galling problems. I bought a stainless Colt Gold Cup several decades ago and it suffered horribly from the galling problems of stainless on stainless which has been discussed here in other threads, then I had a late 90's or early turn of the century Springfield with the same issues. I won't own another stainless frame/slide combo from anybody unless one or both components have polymer or hard chrome finish on them, but that is probably just a scar from my previous experience with all stainless 1911's.

[awp_101]

You guys are all missing the boat. The answer is, of course, the .45 M&P Shield. Obviously.

What are y'all thinking?

XD-S .45!

I briefly went down that road then stumbled into a G30 and quickly saw the error of my ways.

[RJ]

In the SE you are going to fight a life long battle with rust and discoloration and a parked gun. The surface must be kept well oiled, diligently.

I assume Springfield has sorted it out by now, but stainless slide and frames are notorious for galling problems. I bought a stainless Colt Gold Cup several decades ago and it suffered horribly from the galling problems of stainless on stainless which has been discussed here in other threads, then I had a late 90's or early turn of the century Springfield with the same issues. I won't own another stainless frame/slide combo from anybody unless one or both components have polymer or hard chrome finish on them, but that is probably just a scar from my previous experience with all stainless 1911's.

Thanks for the perspective, for sure being in FL most of the time it's hot and damp. I wasn't considering stainless because the Tommy Lee Jones quote from US Marshalls keeps reverberating around in my head ("Lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol and get a Glock").

And stainless might be a more suitable finish for a BBQ gun anyway. The reality of my use case is I would take this gun once a year to the pin shoot in Michigan; the rest of the time it's a "thing" to be admired and perhaps taken to the range for fun.

[ccmdfd]

What am I missing?

I walked 1000' to the mailbox today and there was no mail. Then I realized it was federal holiday but I don't know exactly why and who is supposed to celebrate it.

I'm clueless.

One of my best friends' birthday was yesterday. I told her to go downtown and watch the parade in her honor.

And Hey! CNN says it's just as important a day in US history as July 4.

[HeavyDuty]

XD-S .45!

I briefly went down that road then stumbled into a G30 and quickly saw the error of my ways.

Ugh. I bought a 4” XD-S shortly after they were released. It’s always gone bang, but I’ve never fallen in love with it. I really like the thin form factor, it’s what the G36 should have been.

[HeavyDuty]

One of my best friends' birthday was yesterday. I told her to go downtown and watch the parade in her honor.

And Hey! CNN says it's just as important a day in US history as July 4.

Off topic, but I’m actually OK with it. Ending slavery was a momentous event.

[ccmdfd]

Off topic, but I’m actually OK with it. Ending slavery was a momentous event.

Agreed on the momentous event, just not sure that that exact date is the right choice (but then my recollection of that time in US history is rusty).

Would slavery in US ended sooner or later if we were still colonies?

Sorry for thread drift.

[Bucky]

Seems to me H&K basically solved all the problems 1911s can have.

Twice the reliability, with 1/3 the shoot-ability. :D

[Caballoflaco]

I've a short answer to this question. It is only 271 pages https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2817-1911-picture-thread/page271

If you’re going to use a Model T as a daily driver you better either have a good tool set and mechanical aptitude, or the means to pay someone else to do the wrenching for you.

[mmc45414]

One thing about M&P that I just mentioned in another M&P thread, is they don't get the love of some others and there always seem to be some bargains out there, like this one (https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/smith-&-wesson-m&p45-m2.0-45-acp-double-action-10-1-rounds-4-5-barrel-used?p=534005&avad=211021_d29441155&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA).

Also a lotta talk about triggers, and I recently jumped back on the Apex bandwagon. I have had several in many of my many M&Ps, but the new flatty is pretty cool. I intentionally spent about three years shooting a stock 2.0 because I got tired of throwing bling at everything that I bought, and decided to stick with stock for a while. But I have been shooting a little three gun and most of the organizers are shooting racier guns and setting up a few demanding shots, so I got a second 5" 9mm and did the trigger. I liked that they published their spring combo matrix, and went with the lighter (factory) trigger spring and their heavier sear spring and it is a nice combo with light take up and a crisper snap, and I am very happy with it, and have bought a third 5" 9mm that I am going to have direct milled and do the same setup. For some reason they are not recommending the less expensive polymer trigger for the 2.0 45, but that used gun and this trigger kit (https://www.apextactical.com/c-forward-set-trigger-kit-for-m-p-m2-0) would be, IMO, a sweet setup. :cool:

[BWT]

Thanks. I could probably do that.


Switching gears, here’s TGO showcasing the Springfield Loaded:


https://youtu.be/W567PFkCN8o

$1k, ambi, night sights, full length guide rod. This seems to be another out of the box option with a few more features.

Are there any practical advantages to stainless over say parkerized finish or is that simply personal preference?

If you are considering a SA 1911 at $1,000 - I’d tell you go with a TRP. It’s what I did.

Haven’t shot it in years due to ammo prices. But now that we’re enabling you…

I’d also assess 9mm 1911’s - if that TRP was chambered in 9mm. It’d probably be at the range every single time I went shooting to be honest.

[Caballoflaco]

If you are considering a SA 1911 at $1,000 - I’d tell you go with a TRP. It’s what I did.

Haven’t shot it in years due to ammo prices. But now that we’re enabling you…

I’d also assess 9mm 1911’s - if that TRP was chambered in 9mm. It’d probably be at the range every single time I went shooting to be honest.

He wants a gun for pin matches where the momentum of .45 acp is needed to moves heavy bowling pins completely off the table when hit.

[BWT]

He wants a gun for pin matches where the momentum of .45 acp is needed to moves heavy bowling pins completely off the table when hit.

I thought of that as well, but - I figured just throw it out there.

[Robinson]

Switching gears, here’s TGO showcasing the Springfield Loaded:

$1k, ambi, night sights, full length guide rod. This seems to be another out of the box option with a few more features.

That's the gun that came to my mind when I read your requirements. You can probably find a good used one for even less, and especially chambered for 45ACP it will probably run just fine. Feel free to replace the stupid full length guide rod with a standard GI guide rod and plug.

Someone mentioned the TRP -- they are nice guns but you probably won't find one for a thousand bucks.

[SW CQB 45]

being a .45 vato

issued a G21 in 1993
carried 4500 SW in late 90s to 2000s
1911 in 2008 (current carry)

shot a Sig 220, had a BIG OL HK USP 45, shot a MP45, had a SW 625,

I have never shot a bowling pin match.

are you limited to round count?
allowed mag changes?

that would help me decide but for me... it would be 1911.

I would use my dad's Colt

https://i.imgur.com/AaaT5eMh.jpg

[Borderland]

Thanks for the perspective, for sure being in FL most of the time it's hot and damp. I wasn't considering stainless because the Tommy Lee Jones quote from US Marshalls keeps reverberating around in my head ("Lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol and get a Glock").

And stainless might be a more suitable finish for a BBQ gun anyway. The reality of my use case is I would take this gun once a year to the pin shoot in Michigan; the rest of the time it's a "thing" to be admired and perhaps taken to the range for fun.

Generally, I don't buy stainless pistols or revolvers but I have a few. Mostly because there wasn't a blued model available when I purchased. I shoot mine a lot and really haven't found anything functionally wrong with either one. They both look like shit because powder residue on the muzzle and slide is almost impossible to get off if you shoot a lot. Scratches are a feature with SS.

[Duelist]

If you are considering a SA 1911 at $1,000 - I’d tell you go with a TRP. It’s what I did.

Haven’t shot it in years due to ammo prices. But now that we’re enabling you…

I’d also assess 9mm 1911’s - if that TRP was chambered in 9mm. It’d probably be at the range every single time I went shooting to be honest.


He wants a gun for pin matches where the momentum of .45 acp is needed to moves heavy bowling pins completely off the table when hit.


I thought of that as well, but - I figured just throw it out there.

Well, isn’t that the exact situation where we enable a .45 for the pin matches and a 9mm for practice and everything else?

I mean, as long as we’re spending Rich’s money for him anyway!!

[RJ]

If you are considering a SA 1911 at $1,000 - I’d tell you go with a TRP. It’s what I did.

Haven’t shot it in years due to ammo prices. But now that we’re enabling you…

I’d also assess 9mm 1911’s - if that TRP was chambered in 9mm. It’d probably be at the range every single time I went shooting to be honest.

Looking at the SA web site, TRP MSRP ranges from $1,695 to $1,780. The Loaded series ranges from $978 to $1,347. What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.

"For me", the SA Loaded seems superficially like it has the features I am looking for, but of course I don't know what I don't know. Based on the little knowledge I've gained in the last few days (Thanks all!!) that would include:

- 1911 pattern in .45 ACP
- Probably stainless (Florida heat/humidity)
- Ambi-safety (I'm a lefty)
- Out of the box usable sights (meaning three dot fixed, or night sights)
- Be both a BBQ gun and "reliable enough" to perform at (very) occasional matches, either The Pin Shoot in Central Lake Michigan next year, or thinking about it, I guess I could also use it in Single Stack in USPSA.

I'd be buying a 1911 to have "the 1911 experience"; It's not like I need another gun. I don't want to fiddle with it, I want to shoot it for enjoyment, and to get familiar with as a piece of American history.



Random 1911 armorer question on the guide rod: In that video, TGO mentions he can feel the extra 2 oz from the full length guide rod in the Springfield Loaded. That makes sense to me, I can feel it when I put a Tungsten guide rod in my G34.

In practical terms, does a full length guide rod have any other pluses or minuses? I watched a take-down video of a pistol with a full length guide rod, and it didn't seem all that complicated, really.

[Archer1440]

Twice the reliability, with 1/3 the shoot-ability. :D

While an amusing comment, the HK45 is actually ~98% as “shootable” as a good 1911 (Springfield Professional), for me, based on my steel challenge runs, and the extra couple of rounds are nice, too.

Rather good trigger for a plastic gun.

[RJ]

I have never shot a bowling pin match.

are you limited to round count?
allowed mag changes?



My AAR from The Pin Shoot in Central Lake MI last week is here. It was a lot of fun.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53145-The-Pin-Shoot-Central-Lake-MI-2022

[SW CQB 45]

Looking at the SA web site, TRP MSRP ranges from $1,695 to $1,780. The Loaded series ranges from $978 to $1,347. What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.

"For me", the SA Loaded seems superficially like it has the features I am looking for, but of course I don't know what I don't know. Based on the little knowledge I've gained in the last few days (Thanks all!!) that would include:

- 1911 pattern in .45 ACP
- Probably stainless (Florida heat/humidity)
- Ambi-safety (I'm a lefty)
- Out of the box usable sights (meaning three dot fixed, or night sights)
- Be both a BBQ gun and "reliable enough" to perform at (very) occasional matches, either The Pin Shoot in Central Lake Michigan next year, or thinking about it, I guess I could also use it in Single Stack in USPSA.

I'd be buying a 1911 to have "the 1911 experience"; It's not like I need another gun. I don't want to fiddle with it, I want to shoot it for enjoyment, and to get familiar with as a piece of American history.



Random 1911 armorer question on the guide rod: In that video, TGO mentions he can feel the extra 2 oz from the full length guide rod in the Springfield Loaded. That makes sense to me, I can feel it when I put a Tungsten guide rod in my G34.

In practical terms, does a full length guide rod have any other pluses or minuses? I watched a take-down video of a pistol with a full length guide rod, and it didn't seem all that complicated, really.

I feel the full length guide rod controversy deals with the ability to take your gun down in the field without any tools.

My current target gun in both .45 and Nina have tungsten full length guide rods.

My duty carry MCOP has a traditional GI plug.

I can take them apart without any tools but the GI is faster and a paperclip makes the other two faster to take down.


I forgot to add, with the full length guide rod take down, better have a thumb nail to press down on the edge of the spring plug.

[BWT]

Looking at the SA web site, TRP MSRP ranges from $1,695 to $1,780. The Loaded series ranges from $978 to $1,347. What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.

"For me", the SA Loaded seems superficially like it has the features I am looking for, but of course I don't know what I don't know. Based on the little knowledge I've gained in the last few days (Thanks all!!) that would include:

- 1911 pattern in .45 ACP
- Probably stainless (Florida heat/humidity)
- Ambi-safety (I'm a lefty)
- Out of the box usable sights (meaning three dot fixed, or night sights)
- Be both a BBQ gun and "reliable enough" to perform at (very) occasional matches, either The Pin Shoot in Central Lake Michigan next year, or thinking about it, I guess I could also use it in Single Stack in USPSA.

I'd be buying a 1911 to have "the 1911 experience"; It's not like I need another gun. I don't want to fiddle with it, I want to shoot it for enjoyment, and to get familiar with as a piece of American history.



Random 1911 armorer question on the guide rod: In that video, TGO mentions he can feel the extra 2 oz from the full length guide rod in the Springfield Loaded. That makes sense to me, I can feel it when I put a Tungsten guide rod in my G34.

In practical terms, does a full length guide rod have any other pluses or minuses? I watched a take-down video of a pistol with a full length guide rod, and it didn't seem all that complicated, really.

My initial recommendation was a Glock 21 Gen 3 used for the record (double the capacity, soft shooting, easy to maintenance, RJ’s gone through the Glock Armorer’s course, 1/3 the price almost of what we’re discussing now, reliable and cheap OEM magazines, and definitely Florida weather proof). As this progressed and it seemed there was more interest in not just .45 ACP but 1911’s and once $1,000 was mentioned I thought why not recommend something as well.

Sure - 20 LPI checkering helps (but it’s pretty aggressive), NM frame, barrel, magazine well, and a well tuned trigger. I don’t know how distinct that is from the loaded.

As far as front weight? I’d recommend something with a railed front, etc. I know there was a difference when shooting a demo TRP Operator and my more classic TRP. So maybe the Operator model?

https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-operator-handguns/1911-operator-45-acp-handgun/

ETA: I forgot to say the G21 is insanely accurate.

[LockedBreech]

I have a Colt Series 80 Government Stainless with about 1600 rounds through without issue. I love it.

I have a Smith & Wesson E-Series coming in next month with a few more bells and whistles. I am sure I will love it too.

My favorite .45, though, is my 4.6" M&P 2.0. The very first magazine I ever put through it was shockingly accurate. It's a gun that WANTS to hit the bullseye, much like my CZ-75 with Hornady XTPs. You really have to try to miss. That kind of accuracy from a reliable, modern service polymer - especially with the excellent reputation of the first-gen .45 M&Ps - won me over.

It has never got to serve any actual carry or home defense use yet, I use 9mm for everything and .40 for a woods gun, but I am often tempted to put it into rotation for purely anecdotal reasons - I've worked two different shootings involving 230-grain Gold Dot and the round works convincingly. As of yet, it serves the same role as my 1911s have and will, and the same role as grandpa's old Colt Python I still keep stocked with 125-grain Gold Dots - to be awesome and fun to have.

I honestly think if you have your serious bases covered for carry and home defense "to be awesome and fun to have" is enough of a reason for pretty much any gun.

[jh9]

Agreed on the momentous event, just not sure that that exact date is the right choice (but then my recollection of that time in US history is rusty).

Would slavery in US ended sooner or later if we were still colonies?

Sorry for thread drift.

That exact date has considerable history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juneteenth) going back to 1865. It's been a Texas state holiday for longer than a lot of people here have been alive.

for 1911 content, the M45A1 that I occasionally regret selling every time a thread like this comes up. Was never super impressed by the ionbond/decobond/whatever finish but I did like the pistol:

90405

[awp_101]

RJ here’s a couple of things pulled from the deep dark crevices of my memory which is like a rusty steel trap but it’s absolutely worth the premium you paid for it.

The TRP is supposed to use tool steel fire control components vs MIM of the lower SA product lines. Not sure about the Loaded series.

The last time I saw a TRP for under $1K was at a gun show at closing time the last day of the show and that was pre-national temper tantrum.

Problems with stainless aren’t really a thing anymore unless the tolerances were kept too tight. I think the last time I heard of problems was some pre-CZ Dan Wessons. Just remember it’s stain-LESS not stain-PROOF. I lost count of the number of times I had to have that discussion with customers when I did appliance repair.

[Bucky]

While an amusing comment, the HK45 is actually ~98% as “shootable” as a good 1911 (Springfield Professional), for me, based on my steel challenge runs, and the extra couple of rounds are nice, too.

Rather good trigger for a plastic gun.

I would say you are the exception, rather than the rule.

[BWT]

My initial recommendation was a Glock 21 Gen 3 used for the record (double the capacity, soft shooting, easy to maintenance, RJ’s gone through the Glock Armorer’s course, 1/3 the price almost of what we’re discussing now, reliable and cheap OEM magazines, and definitely Florida weather proof). As this progressed and it seemed there was more interest in not just .45 ACP but 1911’s and once $1,000 was mentioned I thought why not recommend something as well.

Sure - 20 LPI checkering helps (but it’s pretty aggressive), NM frame, barrel, magazine well, and a well tuned trigger. I don’t know how distinct that is from the loaded.

As far as front weight? I’d recommend something with a railed front, etc. I know there was a difference when shooting a demo TRP Operator and my more classic TRP. So maybe the Operator model?

https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-operator-handguns/1911-operator-45-acp-handgun/

ETA: I forgot to say the G21 is insanely accurate.

I forgot to add SS guns will rust. My Dan Wesson CBOB that was my first carry gun rusted. It’s part of the reason I went to Glock. SS bead blasted will also scratch pretty easily and it’s easily visible. I’d recommend a coated gun for this reason as well. But, SS guns are a bit heavier so if you’re considering to leverage weight to your advantage from pure performance that could be an advantage.

I’ve had good luck with Tripp Cobra magazines, but I’d recommend a magazine with a longer magazine body for 8-rounders. I had issues with spring set, etc. with regular magazines. I’m not an engineer but basically in the traditional like Chip McCormick Power Mags or Wilson 47D’s or the single 500 magazine I bought. I ran into issues where the magazine spring seemed to not be sufficient to feed the gun after remaining loaded for an extended duration. Leaving the magazines unloaded and then taking them to the range to test showed no signs of the issue. Leaving them loaded and going to the range replicated it.

My theory and I forget where (it’s been years) was stuffing 8 rounds into a 7 round tube came at a price and I believe it was over-compressing the spring. With the Tripp magazines and latest Wilson magazines lengthening the magazine body on 8 round I personally feel it validates that theory and they know it otherwise why would they change it?

Part of the reason I reference reliable OEM magazines as a plus for Glocks.

[JTQ]

What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.

The things you would notice are the front strap checkering on the TRP, while the Loaded has no texturing on the front strap, and the sight options. Pay attention to the sights, and their dovetails (I think I linked to the Kensight website in the other thread) because not all sight options are available for all dovetails.

[RJ]

Dang it, every time I think I'm good another question comes up.

How about magazines? For reliability, I shoot Glock OEM Mags, same with the Sig P365X, no mods (ok well TTI extensions for the Glock 34 mags for CO.)

Is there a go to 8 round mag supplier for reliability? I keep hearing WC mags mentioned fairly often.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Magazine-1911-45-ACP-Full-Size-8-Round-Extended-Base-Pad/productinfo/47DE/

Or is it case of vetting your mags in your gun and then using those exclusively? For my purposes I'll need three 8 rounders in the gun to start a stage (rules say max 8 in the gun at the start), then at least four to five reloads (7, ea min) at hand, so I need to budget for around 8 mags, plus spares, so say 10.

[JTQ]

Dang it, every time I think I'm good another question comes up.

How about magazines?

Is there a go to 8 round mag supplier for reliability? I keep hearing WC mags mentioned fairly often.
You'll probably get 20 different answers for the "Best 1911 Mags".

As mentioned in the post above, the 1911 was designed around a 7 round mag. Early 8 rounders were 7 round tubes with compromised springs and followers that allow 8 rounds in a 7 round tube. Newer 8 round mag designs have longer tubes that allow a good spring and follower.

Wilson, Chip McCormick (CMC), Tripp, CheckMate, ACT-Mag, and others offer extended tube 8 rounders.

Wilson makes great mags, but not all are equal. Their 7 round 47 is very good. Their 8 round 47D is not as good, but OK. If you want 8 rounds from Wilson Combat buy one from their ETM (500 Series) line-up.

Wilson 47 https://shopwilsoncombat.com/7-Round-45-ACP-Magazines/products/370/

Wilson ETM https://shopwilsoncombat.com/45-ACP-Elite-Tactical-Magazines/products/378/

Tripp Research Cobra Mag https://www.trippresearchinc.com/8r-45-rg/?_ga=2.263125387.68946084.1655824566-1830728246.1655824566

CMC Railed PowerMag (RPM) https://www.cmproducts.com/Railed-Power-Mag-RPM-Full-Size-1911-45-ACP-8-Round-Stainless_p_211.html

CheckMate EXT https://www.shop.1911parts.com/Check-Mate-Match-Extended-SS-Full-Size-1911-Magazine-8-Round-cm45-8-s-h-ext.htm

[JTQ]

Hilton Yam on 1911 mags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGBc9XW-wOE

[OlongJohnson]

Since the Art and Science thread is getting more questions about other .45s and general 1911 questions, how about a thread for some of those discussions not directly related to keeping a 1911 fat and happy.

I’m as guilty as anyone else so consider this an attempt at atonement…;)

How ironic that this is turning into a thread about which 1911 mags to use.

[Elwin]

If you did a poll, I'm sure a lot of 1911 people here have replaced factory full length guide rods with GI sets. I have in both my government 1911s. In addition to being tool-less, the "Hi Power" takedown also avoids wear on the bushing to barrel fit because you aren't turning the bushing around under tension (Hi Power method is take the slide stop out, slide the whole upper half off while retaining the recoil spring so it doesn't send the guiderod across the room, then push the barrel out and rotate the bushing somewhere aft of the end of the barrel to get it out of the slide). On a steel gun, I'm not sure I'd prioritize the minimal difference between full guiderod and GI.

Stainless will definitely scratch but besides being rust-resistant, it's also easier to add matching or close-enough-to-matching parts to later if you're repairing or modifying. My two stainless guns are scratched to hell and back but I don't really care - they're well used guns and show it, which is fine. Oh, the blued one is scratched up too. Because kydex.

In addition to the differences mentioned above, I'd guess that a TRP is getting a little more attention during assembly at the factory compared to a Loaded, RO, or Ronin. They're basically meant to be affordable production line versions of the SACS FBI-HRT pistol. I know at least a couple respected custom 1911 builders (Burton and Zito) have opined that the TRP is the lowest priced 1911 they'd recommend for carry. That may not matter at all for your recreational uses, but it's a partial answer as to what's going into it to make it cost more.

[BWT]

How ironic that this is turning into a thread about which 1911 mags to use.

I’ve probably over contributed to this thread but to your point I think what has resurrected the 2011 is STI’s reliable and decently affordable magazines. It’s always been about the magazines to be honest. It’s something you don’t really ever consider until they don’t work.

I’d recommend Tripp Cobra magazines as that’s what I have direct positive experience with. I’ve tried lots of Wilson’s and just not had the experience others have - I never tried the one with the new magazine springs though. After Tripp’s worked I stopped searching because my needs were satisfied.

[Bucky]

You'll probably get 20 different answers for the "Best 1911 Mags".


You'd actually get 3 different answers just from me. :) ....

That is because different answer based on caliber. Wilson ETM for .45 ACP is my preferred choice.

[Archer1440]

I would say you are the exception, rather than the rule.

No argument here, but I have done a lot of work on trigger manipulation under a very exceptional instructor and that has helped level out the differences among platforms- for me.

[JonInWA]

The Hilton Yam video was excellent.

In addition to what he mentioned, my personal magazine success recipe involves:

-Extended tubes for 8 round magazines

-Extra strength magazine springs

-Skirted followers

-I prefer carbon steel over stainless steel for tubes

Based on a recent frustrating series of jams with two 1911s with various magazines, I will totally avoid wadcutter bullets, unless the gun and magazines are specifically tuned and vetted for them.

My personal preference is for Check-Mate magazines, but realize that while it's a genuine preference, I am affiliated with them.

Best, Jon

[45dotACP]

The Hilton Yam video was excellent.

In addition to what he mentioned, my personal magazine success recipe involves:

-Extended tubes for 8 round magazines

-Extra strength magazine springs

-Skirted followers

-I prefer carbon steel over stainless steel for tubes

Based on a recent frustrating series of jams with two 1911s with various magazines, I will totally avoid wadcutter bullets, unless the gun and magazines are specifically tuned and vetted for them.

My personal preference is for Check-Mate magazines, but realize that while it's a genuine preference, I am affiliated with them.

Best, Jon

Man, I had an issue with some wadcutters and my 1911s recently, only to find that the damn wadcutters would not run in my G21 either. I don't know what I did with that batch of handloads, but it was wrong.

Otherwise yeah the above is my usual recipe for a good 1911 mag also.

Also, don't be afraid to try different mags, you can always retrofit the ones that suck. I have a few old CMC shooting star mags that gave up the ghost because they were 8 rounders that were 7 round tubes...so I placed a few super 7 kits from Tripp and they've worked perfectly as 7 rounders instead. They're incredibly reliable.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Elwin]

Man, I had an issue with some wadcutters and my 1911s recently, only to find that the damn wadcutters would not run in my G21 either. I don't know what I did with that batch of handloads, but it was wrong.

Otherwise yeah the above is my usual recipe for a good 1911 mag also.

Also, don't be afraid to try different mags, you can always retrofit the ones that suck. I have a few old CMC shooting star mags that gave up the ghost because they were 8 rounders that were 7 round tubes...so I placed a few super 7 kits from Tripp and they've worked perfectly as 7 rounders instead. They're incredibly reliable.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

There's this, which I've done to a couple 47Ds, and then there's also Ed Brown's exchange program. For every mag you send them, you get one of theirs for $10. If you like Check-Mate mags (which is what EB mags are), it's a good resource for fresh mags. I just recently turned a bunch of very heavily used and worn out ETMs and a hodgepodge of old Kimber mags into a shiny new set of good 8rd mags for range use.

You want thread drift? Start talking to 1911 nerds about literally anything 1911-related.

[SW CQB 45]

I read your AAR on the Bowling Pin Shoot, sounds like alot of fun.

If you are looking to buy a gun for this event.... the plastic striker fired will be cheaper than a decent out of the box no issue 1911 style pistol in .45.

While my time with the G21 is far more extensive being issued a Gen 2 in 1993 and we carried them till 2011 (IIRC) and were replaced with G21SF till about 2016 when we went Nina.

We had placed our order for standard G21 with Glock Night sights and we were sent ambi mag release G21s which were a fail. They were easily pushing out and so we sent them back for what our original order stated.

I am not the best person to advised due to hand size and being a big guy,

maybe the G21 shot softer than a 1911, however we issued Gold Dot 230 and in both G21 (from what I recall) and my MCOP, recoil was stiff in both.

Recoil was not an issue in my book as that was my chosen platform/caliber. I will say that Gold Dot 200+P was a Grizzly Bear in the felt recoil dept. Somewhere I still have a box.

If you are looking for a used G21, use caution in E prefix G21 (going off of memory) as the rear frame tabs would pull out of the poly frame on heavy use from the impact of going into battery. These are mid to early late 90s frames.

Also, some guns we turned in had been in service for 15-18+ years (hard use) and some of the frames were warped but they still ran, however we had to use + trigger bars to make them pass the armorers checks.

I will try and find an image to show what I mean by warped.

[Evil_Ed]

A fun to shoot, accurate, soft shooting 45?

CZ97B/BD. Seriously!

It's a shame they never went back to make actual higher-than-10-round cap mags for it...As much as I love my 1911s, that thing is a hoot to shoot. It's a bit large...but man is it nice. Plus, it takes to all the standard CZ upgrades and fettling with bits in the sear cage.

P-F's own Patrick Kelley did a review of one, too...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIc23PIQZNI

On the upside, if you need an ambi decocker or safety, stuff that'll fit the CZ-SP01 should fit it too...

[JTQ]

Patrick has quite a few options reviewed

PX4 in 45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqTu1cOINh0

[JTQ]

RIA 1911


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyTMrfaUhJE

[JTQ]

Grand Power 45


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhkoJgl1i7I

[JTQ]

How ironic that this is turning into a thread about which 1911 mags to use.


I’ve probably over contributed to this thread but to your point I think what has resurrected the 2011 is STI’s reliable and decently affordable magazines. It’s always been about the magazines to be honest. It’s something you don’t really ever consider until they don’t work.

I’d recommend Tripp Cobra magazines as that’s what I have direct positive experience with. I’ve tried lots of Wilson’s and just not had the experience others have - I never tried the one with the new magazine springs though. After Tripp’s worked I stopped searching because my needs were satisfied.

He didn't start this thread, but it was probably really started to support RJ in his quest for bowling pin gun. His questions began in the 1911 thread, but many recommended he select something other than a 1911, and to keep that thread on topic, this thread was created.

For the most part, I'm just answering RJ's questions.

[RJ]

RIA 1911



Thanks. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

[JonInWA]

Man, I had an issue with some wadcutters and my 1911s recently, only to find that the damn wadcutters would not run in my G21 either. I don't know what I did with that batch of handloads, but it was wrong.

Otherwise yeah the above is my usual recipe for a good 1911 mag also.

Also, don't be afraid to try different mags, you can always retrofit the ones that suck. I have a few old CMC shooting star mags that gave up the ghost because they were 8 rounders that were 7 round tubes...so I placed a few super 7 kits from Tripp and they've worked perfectly as 7 rounders instead. They're incredibly reliable.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

Mine was a train wreck using some NOS MagTech 230 gr FMJ SWC stuff. It would chamber, but on extraction the expended extracting round's case rim heel apparently would stumble on the shoulder shelf of the next round, yanking the extractor hook off and leaving a semi-extracted round in the gun-fortunately it didn't develop into a double feed, because the awaiting round in the magazine never actually got out of the magazine.

In discussions with Bruce Gray, he thought that part of the problem might have had to do with the magazine catch placement in my SIG GSR, as apparently they tended to be located a bit high in the frame for a couple of years until SIG corrected, so the magazine might be slightly over-inserted, with the top cartridge a bit high.

But then I had the same issue with my Colt Series 70 Reproduction-so the JonInWA default solution is "Avoid using wadcutter bullets." Especially MagTech wadcutters, but these days, I'm disinclined to spend money testing other cartridges when ball and hollowpoint cartridges are 1) Non-problematic, and 2) much more widely available commercially, anyhow.

But I got REAL good at my 1911 malfunction drill in an IDPA match a month or so ago....

Best, Jon

[HCM]

Thanks. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

For a range gun that’s only going to use ball ammo and RIA in 45 or 38 super is a surprisingly decent gun.

[Archer1440]

RJ here’s a couple of things pulled from the deep dark crevices of my memory which is like a rusty steel trap but it’s absolutely worth the premium you paid for it.

The TRP is supposed to use tool steel fire control components vs MIM of the lower SA product lines. Not sure about the Loaded series.



In my rather dated personal experience, the TRP is actually filled with all MIM parts, with the exception of the extractor. All the action parts are MIM as well as other critical parts. That may have changed for current examples, but mine was all MIM.

The Professional also has a few MIM parts, but tool steel in the action parts, slide stop, plunger tube, Wilson extractor and safety. Ejector and FP plate are MIM and work fine.

I replaced almost everything MIM in my TRP with Cylinder & Slide parts over 20 years ago and it has a great trigger as a result. TRP’s of that era had Storm Lake barrels, and those were fine at the time.

My two Professionals never needed anything changed out, except an extractor that failed on one of them during a state IDPA match (after a Gunsite 499 where we had done a lot of abusive things to it). Both still run as if the slides are on ball-bearings, both are super accurate, and that is after an embarrassingly high round count. Nothing done except recoil spring changes and FP spring changes on the maintenance clock.

[HCM]

Looking at the SA web site, TRP MSRP ranges from $1,695 to $1,780. The Loaded series ranges from $978 to $1,347. What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.

"For me", the SA Loaded seems superficially like it has the features I am looking for, but of course I don't know what I don't know. Based on the little knowledge I've gained in the last few days (Thanks all!!) that would include:

- 1911 pattern in .45 ACP
- Probably stainless (Florida heat/humidity)
- Ambi-safety (I'm a lefty)
- Out of the box usable sights (meaning three dot fixed, or night sights)
- Be both a BBQ gun and "reliable enough" to perform at (very) occasional matches, either The Pin Shoot in Central Lake Michigan next year, or thinking about it, I guess I could also use it in Single Stack in USPSA.

I'd be buying a 1911 to have "the 1911 experience"; It's not like I need another gun. I don't want to fiddle with it, I want to shoot it for enjoyment, and to get familiar with as a piece of American history.



Random 1911 armorer question on the guide rod: In that video, TGO mentions he can feel the extra 2 oz from the full length guide rod in the Springfield Loaded. That makes sense to me, I can feel it when I put a Tungsten guide rod in my G34.

In practical terms, does a full length guide rod have any other pluses or minuses? I watched a take-down video of a pistol with a full length guide rod, and it didn't seem all that complicated, really.

I have one of the adjustable sight TRPs which differ from most other SA 1911's in using a bull barrel vs a traditional bushing set up.

For the pin shoot and personal enjoyment I recommend the bull barrel TRP. It's effective enough that they are prohibited in the USPSA / IDPA single stack 1911 specific divisions....

As a dot shooter, the SA Operator with factory RMR is a great gun though I've hear they have been discontinued.

[LockedBreech]

For a range gun that’s only going to use ball ammo and RIA in 45 or 38 super is a surprisingly decent gun.

This is true. I had the basic RIA GI .45 for about a year and shot a fair bit of 230-grain ball with nary an issue. I ran it rather hilariously with Wilson mags (they were like 30% the cost of the gun). When I tired of the more basic finish and faux-wood grips I sold it to a friend in need of a birthday gift for her husband, and I at least felt good that I knew I wasn't sending along a clunker that wouldn't run.

They ain't pretty but they shoot.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Say I get one of these:


https://youtu.be/Bk4T7V7JnN8

This seems to be a decent gateway-drug level - a no frills gun at sub $500 on GB; ambi safety, decent fit and finish.

How hard is it to replace the dovetail front sight with say a FO? I have the simple 3/16” hex tool for a Glock, but on a 1911, is it as simple as pressing out the front sight and pressing in a new one?


for just a few more bucks, this version already has the FO sight. My oldest son has the 9mm version and it has been running well for him.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/932362502



Thanks for the perspective, for sure being in FL most of the time it's hot and damp. I wasn't considering stainless because the Tommy Lee Jones quote from US Marshalls keeps reverberating around in my head ("Lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol and get a Glock").

And stainless might be a more suitable finish for a BBQ gun anyway. The reality of my use case is I would take this gun once a year to the pin shoot in Michigan; the rest of the time it's a "thing" to be admired and perhaps taken to the range for fun.

For general aesthetics and admiring, and potential BBQs, I'd go with the stainless Ruger and have an ambi-safety fitted.


Dang it, every time I think I'm good another question comes up.

How about magazines? For reliability, I shoot Glock OEM Mags, same with the Sig P365X, no mods (ok well TTI extensions for the Glock 34 mags for CO.)

Is there a go to 8 round mag supplier for reliability? I keep hearing WC mags mentioned fairly often.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Magazine-1911-45-ACP-Full-Size-8-Round-Extended-Base-Pad/productinfo/47DE/

Or is it case of vetting your mags in your gun and then using those exclusively? For my purposes I'll need three 8 rounders in the gun to start a stage (rules say max 8 in the gun at the start), then at least four to five reloads (7, ea min) at hand, so I need to budget for around 8 mags, plus spares, so say 10.

Since this isn't a carry gun, vetting the mags for your usage will consist of running a couple of boxes through them.

In addition to the previously mentioned Wilsons, Brownells makes 1911 magazines which are supposed to be good, and they warranty them. I acquired some 8-round Mec-Gars which are OK so far. Any unsatisfactory mags can be traded for Ed Brown ones for $10.

https://www.brownells.com/magazines/handgun-magazines/magazines/1911-45-acp-magazine-prod84194.aspx?avs%7cMake_3=1911&avs%7cManufacturer_1=brownells

[JTQ]

Is there a go to 8 round mag supplier for reliability?
Inevitably, everyone new to 1911's eventually asks about 10 round mags, because 10 has to be better than 8. Since most folks these days have no experience with single column mags, I often post this article for perspective.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/nosedive-and-feed-angle-in-the-1911-45-acp/

[SW CQB 45]

If you are looking for a used G21, use caution in E prefix G21 (going off of memory) as the rear frame tabs would pull out of the poly frame on heavy use from the impact of going into battery. These are mid to early late 90s frames.

Also, some guns we turned in had been in service for 15-18+ years (hard use) and some of the frames were warped but they still ran, however we had to use + trigger bars to make them pass the armorers checks.

I will try and find an image to show what I mean by warped.

I may have an older image at our work as some of the guns I managed were much worse than this image but they still continued to run.

And while I am guessing as to whats happening here, frame flex during recoil and taking set this was on high use G21s that only saw 230 hardball and 230 duty ammo well past the 10 year mark.

And a full 13 round magazine of .45acp is pushing upwards on the slide, so essentially this might cause some timing contacts between the firing pin and the firing pin safety.

This image I got off the net and its just an example of what I saw. if you compared the bottom of the slide to the top of the frame, you can see the frame lines curve upward or warping of the frame.

The red lines are an exaggeration of the curve but it gives you an idea what to be looking at. To me, those are high mileage Glocks.

Some police guns (mainly Admin) get shot 50 rounds and year. Those guns are in excellent condition because in 10 years, they likely have only seen around 500 rounds.

https://i.imgur.com/pbHZlEKh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m1GNFEth.jpg (https://imgur.com/m1GNFEt)

[Nephrology]

For a range gun that’s only going to use ball ammo and RIA in 45 or 38 super is a surprisingly decent gun.

An RIA 1911 was my first handgun (classic newb move). I've put 1600 rounds of random ball thru it over the years, zero malfunctions with shitty mags and minimal TLC. It's ugly and the trigger kinda sucks but it's a shooter.

Agree surprisingly decent. i've never carried it, but I also do carry Glocks that have had more malfunction issues than this gun.

[Exiledviking]

I have one of the adjustable sight TRPs which differ from most other SA 1911's in using a bull barrel vs a traditional bushing set up.

For the pin shoot and personal enjoyment I recommend the bull barrel TRP. It's effective enough that they are prohibited in the USPSA / IDPA single stack 1911 specific divisions....

As a dot shooter, the SA Operator with factory RMR is a great gun though I've hear they have been discontinued.

I agree with HCM. If I was looking for a turn-key bowling pin 1911, the full rail TRP Operator with the adjustable rear sight would be my first choice.

The bull barrel, the full rail, and full-length recoil spring guide rod adds some weight in the right area for soaking up recoil. I had one for about 7 years and stupidly sold it. I've seen a lightly used ones go for around $1200.
Obligatory link for that pistol: https://www.springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-trp-handguns/1911-trp-operator-full-rail-45-acp-handgun-ca-compliant/

[HCM]

An RIA 1911 was my first handgun (classic newb move). I've put 1600 rounds of random ball thru it over the years, zero malfunctions with shitty mags and minimal TLC. It's ugly and the trigger kinda sucks but it's a shooter.

Agree surprisingly decent. i've never carried it, but I also do carry Glocks that have had more malfunction issues than this gun.

It’s not what I would recommend for duty or self-defense gun, nor are you gonna put hundreds of thousands of rounds through it rebuilding it every 50,000 rounds but as a range gun to shoot ball ammo get a trigger job and go shoot it.

[OlongJohnson]

Anyone have experience with the P220 Super Match? Five-inch barrel (long slide for a P220), adjustable rear sight, SAO. The P220 version of a Government model. I remember one of the 1911 dorks on one of those forums saying it was more accurate than his 1911s, at least in his hands.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/936306842

John Hearne

[Ichiban]

Has anyone mentioned the FN-45 yet? I never shot one but I seem to recall some people really liking them. It is a double stack so the grip is, uhm, hefty.

And speaking of double stacks, is the Para P14 still around? Pretty much zero after market support for those IIRC.

[JTQ]

Has anyone mentioned the FN-45 yet?
It's hard to have an FN 45 mention and not share this video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdTsFB1ejo8

I'm sure that's probably a one time thing, and if not, FN has probably corrected the issue, but it is entertaining as heck.

[Ichiban]

^^^^^^^^
Gumby-gun.:p

[mmc45414]

For general aesthetics and admiring, and potential BBQs, I'd go with the stainless Ruger and have an ambi-safety fitted.
Yes, and I have one of the SR1911 Target versions (https://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911Target/specSheets/6736.html) in 9mm, and they come with the ambi, available and in stock in 45 (https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/ruger-sr1911-target-45-acp-single-action-8-1-rounds-5-barrel-new?p=53253&avad=211021_b294a0eb1&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA).

And I think that adjustable rear sight might be pretty nice for what you want to do, I replaced mine with a Dawson with FO dots (it is the "Kimber" version, I know now, after the third try...) but damn, it looks like they may have discontinued it...


Since this isn't a carry gun, vetting the mags for your usage will consist of running a couple of boxes through them.

In addition to the previously mentioned Wilsons, Brownells makes 1911 magazines which are supposed to be good, and they warranty them.

And right now 47Ds are on sale for the same price (https://www.brownells.com/magazines/handgun-magazines/magazines/1911-47d-8rd-magazine-3-pack-no-mag-pouch-sku965000149-42979-91061.aspx). Vetting magazines is, IMO, not a really big deal if you start from known entities. Just get some and use them for the practicing you oughta be doing anyway.

Another thing I want to mention is that as a new potential 1911 user it probably sounds like buying a classic Ferrari with four downdraft Weber carburetors and a mechanical distributor that will have you constantly chasing your tail just to keep it functional long enough to drive around the block and be glad to make it back home, but it really is not like that. Get a brand that other people have had sucess with (I had a good experience with the three Rugers I recently bought), get some magazines other people have had some sucess with, and get some 230g ball that is not flawed in some manner and go shooting.

[CSW]

Since the Art and Science thread is getting more questions about other .45s and general 1911 questions, how about a thread for some of those discussions not directly related to keeping a 1911 fat and happy.

I’m as guilty as anyone else so consider this an attempt at atonement…;)


Smith 4506. The battleship of 3rd gen Smiths.

[willie]

Logic rules out the .45 ACP round for most of us. Knowledge members made the case. During the last 35 years reliable 9mm pistols and effective defense ammo have become available. In recent years(until recently)one could purchase 9mm ammo cheaper than he could reload it. I like revolvers chambered for 45 Auto round and enjoy shooting 1911's. Too, I have a truck load of components for the round. My shooting range has been along fields and streams. Need? I could have got by with a .22 pistol and any other of my centerfire handguns. Guys like Clusterfrack who train regularly find that a modern 9mm handgun serves them best. They don't shoot dirt clods, rocks, and stumps and have little interest in single actions or plinking with 32's, 380's, .45 ACP's, or Grandma's Hi-Point.

.45 Auto? I just remembered I told Stephanie I would send her a batch of factory 185 gr swc ammo.

[WobblyPossum]

Logic rules out the .45 ACP round for most of us. Knowledge members made the case. During the last 35 years reliable 9mm pistols and effective defense ammo have become available. In recent years(until recently)one could purchase 9mm ammo cheaper than he could reload it. I like revolvers chambered for 45 Auto round and enjoy shooting 1911's. Too, I have a truck load of components for the round. My shooting range has been along fields and streams. Need? I could have got by with a .22 pistol and any other of my centerfire handguns. Guys like Clusterfrack who train regularly find that a modern 9mm handgun serves them best. They don't shoot dirt clods, rocks, and stumps and have little interest in single actions or plinking with 32's, 380's, .45 ACP's, or Grandma's Hi-Point.

.45 Auto? I just remembered I told Stephanie I would send her a batch of factory 185 gr swc ammo.

The premise of the thread was RJ seeking a gun to use for bowling pin matches. 9mm doesn’t have the energy to knock a pin down reliably. He’s not looking for a new carry gun or equipping a police department.

[Jim Watson]

Logic rules out the .45 ACP round for most of us.

Yes, but I am shooting what I have and even sniffing around others.

I am comfortable with 1911 and 2011, but find PO, USP, and G21 bulky to hold.

If S&W had made a Plastic M&P .45 Pro 5", I would have been interested at the time.

I was interested in the XD 5.25 for a while but they don't make that one in .45 any more.

My carry weapons have shrunk to subcompact 9mms, even my Commander doesn't get to town very often.

But I am shooting USPSA with the .45 Buzzard 2011 because of component supplies. IDPA clubs near here are running .22 divisions to keep activity up and my Nelson Conversion is a real treat. So 9mm shooting is pretty occasional; I get practice with my G43 at GSSF.

[willie]

The premise of the thread was RJ seeking a gun to use for bowling pin matches. 9mm doesn’t have the energy to knock a pin down reliably. He’s not looking for a new carry gun or equipping a police department.

I disagree about the premise of the thread. RJ joined the discussion post number 23. Despite being a nice guy, he did not establish the thread's theme. To use his term, he "jumped in".

[JTQ]

I disagree about the premise of the thread. RJ joined the discussion post number 23. Despite being a nice guy, he did not establish the thread's theme. To use his term, he "jumped in".
I believe you are mistaken. This thread was started from the "Art and Science of Keeping Your 1911 Running" thread, as RJ had some questions, and others started making non-1911 suggestions for him.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36518-The-Art-and-Science-of-Keeping-Your-1911-Running/page149

Let’s take some of these questions HERE because I’m just as guilty for thread drift as anyone else.


It is about finding a .45 shooter for bowling pin matches.

[WobblyPossum]

I disagree about the premise of the thread. RJ joined the discussion post number 23. Despite being a nice guy, he did not establish the thread's theme. To use his term, he "jumped in".

Edit: now I’m confused.

[awp_101]

As the OP I’ll clarify. I started this thread to help RJ and others who might be pondering the question in the thread title.

Unless something very special comes along, any future 1911 purchases I make will be 9mm/.38 Super. I’m still G41 curious but that’s a long shot (so to speak). If S&W releases a 5” M&P 45 I’ll have one unless it’s a total pile of flaming crap.

[WobblyPossum]

My previous agency issued G21SFs and G21 Gen4s. It was a large gun and I have smaller hands. It was probably the absolute size limit for me to be able to shoot it at any reasonable standard. A regular G21 Gen3 is too large for me and I can’t shoot it as well as I’d like. That being said, if it’s not a gun for CCW, I think it was an awesome gun. Superbly accurate, fairly soft shooting, held 13 rounds in a magazine. I think one would be an awesome bowling pin gun or a decent woods gun. I’m firmly in the 9mm camp but if Glock ever comes out with a Gen5 G21, I’ll buy one just for nostalgia’s sake and fun.

[LockedBreech]

My previous agency issued G21SFs and G21 Gen4s. It was a large gun and I have smaller hands. It was probably the absolute size limit for me to be able to shoot it at any reasonable standard. A regular G21 Gen3 is too large for me and I can’t shoot it as well as I’d like. That being said, if it’s not a gun for CCW, I think it was an awesome gun. Superbly accurate, fairly soft shooting, held 13 rounds in a magazine. I think one would be an awesome bowling pin gun or a decent woods gun. I’m firmly in the 9mm camp but if Glock ever comes out with a Gen5 G21, I’ll buy one just for nostalgia’s sake and fun.

I’ve been so close to getting a G21 Gen 4 and G20 Gen 4 for months but I love my Gen 5 17 and 19 and I want them to match. Mildly OCD gun nerd problems.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ccmdfd]

I’m firmly in the 9mm camp but if Glock ever comes out with a Gen5 G21, I’ll buy one just for nostalgia’s sake and fun.

Put me into the want a Gen 5 G21 camp too.

[JTQ]

My previous agency issued G21SFs and G21 Gen4s. It was a large gun and I have smaller hands. It was probably the absolute size limit for me to be able to shoot it at any reasonable standard.
Since we have a lot of Beretta 92 shooters here, how does a Gen 4 G21 compare grip-wise to a standard 92 frame with standard grips?

[WobblyPossum]

Since we have a lot of Beretta 92 shooters here, how does a Gen 4 G21 compare grip-wise to a standard 92 frame with standard grips?

That’s a good question. I have a Beretta 92 with the slim LTT grips but I don’t currently own or have access to a G21.

[Clusterfrack]

Guys like Clusterfrack who train regularly find that a modern 9mm handgun serves them best. They don't shoot dirt clods, rocks, and stumps and have little interest in single actions or plinking with 32's, 380's, .45 ACP's, or Grandma's Hi-Point.

I miss shooting dirt clods and stumps. Next time I have the opportunity, I’ll blast one in your honor. :D

But, my breakup with .45 was primarily due to losing interest in 1911s.

[revchuck38]

But, my breakup with .45 was primarily due to losing interest in 1911s.

I've found that my M&P45s are much more fun to shoot than my 1911s, as is my S&W M22. Plus I've got all that .45 brass I've accumulated over the years. ;)

[RJ]

Colt?

https://shopcoltfirearms.com/colt-1911-competition-pistol-45-acp-with-blue-g10-grips/

90444

They have a stainless version too. No Ambi but I can get past that. Sub $1k. GI guide rod. FO front (“like”).

Any reason why Colt isn’t in this mix of shootable $1k 1911s?

[JonInWA]

Colt?

https://shopcoltfirearms.com/colt-1911-competition-pistol-45-acp-with-blue-g10-grips/

90444

They have a stainless version too. No Ambi but I can get past that. Sub $1k. GI guide rod. FO front (“like”).

Any reason why Colt isn’t in this mix of shootable $1k 1911s?

Great gun, and no reason for any exclusion-except the OP and thread topic is more oriented towards non-1911s discussion.

Best, Jon

[RJ]

Ok, getting to short strokes. So far, finalists include Colt Competition (see above), Ruger model 6700, SA Ronin, and SA Loaded.

Being a retired engineering subcontract manger, I’m putting together a weighted assessment spreadsheet to score the options. To even the lefty factor, I’ll price adjust by adding an allowance for Labor ($150) and parts ($150) to fit an ambi safety.

If there are any other candidates I should be looking at, lemme know.

[Rex G]

My first handgun, in late 1982 or early 1983, was a 1911. In hindsight, I probably should have bought a SIG P220, which was an available option, at the time, or, simply opted for a revolver. (I would have to start LE training, by late 1983, with revolvers, but may not have decided to apply, at the time I bought my 1911.) Today, I have several high-end 1911 pistols, but it has been an expensive, often-frustrating journey.

If some disaster were to claim all of my existing .45 ACP weapons, I would probably only directly replace the G30s Short Frame, and the Gen4 G30, and then add a G30 Short Frame and/or Gen4 G21. Or, I might just stay with 9mm Glocks, bidding farewell to .45 ACP. (.45 Colt, however, remains a favorite, in my revolving pistols.)

I wish that I had bought into the S&W 645/745/4506 pistols, back in the day, but I do not see myself paying collector’s prices, today, for pistols that are no longer supported by S&W.

[Robinson]

Colt?

https://shopcoltfirearms.com/colt-1911-competition-pistol-45-acp-with-blue-g10-grips/

90444

They have a stainless version too. No Ambi but I can get past that. Sub $1k. GI guide rod. FO front (“like”).

Any reason why Colt isn’t in this mix of shootable $1k 1911s?

Nope, no reason not to include it on your short list.

The Colt Competition was developed to compete with the SA Range Officer as a no-frills gun ready for competition or whatever. The Novak rear sight is adjustable, and the current version does not have a firing pin safety -- it is what is commonly referred to as a "Series 70" gun even if it doesn't technically meet all the requirements. Fitting a thumb safety to a Colt is usually pretty straight-forward as long as you really understand the interface between the safety and the sear.

[farscott]

My solution to this is a 2nd Generation G21 that has a Robar grip reduction, night sights, and a SCD. The net result is Glock reliability in a package my small hands can (ahem) handle.

[Evil_Ed]

Colt?

https://shopcoltfirearms.com - THIS IS A SCAM WEBSITE /colt-1911-competition-pistol-45-acp-with-blue-g10-grips/

90444

They have a stainless version too. No Ambi but I can get past that. Sub $1k. GI guide rod. FO front (“like”).

Any reason why Colt isn’t in this mix of shootable $1k 1911s?

Why would you link to a known scam web site? :(

[RJ]

Nope, no reason not to include it on your short list.

The Colt Competition was developed to compete with the SA Range Officer as a no-frills gun ready for competition or whatever. The Novak rear sight is adjustable, and the current version does not have a firing pin safety -- it is what is commonly referred to as a "Series 70" gun even if it doesn't technically meet all the requirements. Fitting a thumb safety to a Colt is usually pretty straight-forward as long as you really understand the interface between the safety and the sear.

Thanks, good info. I'll go look at what a "Series 70" gun entails.

Did my preliminary weighted assessment. Bearing in mind I have only scored a few factors, and have yet to as much as heft a 1911 outside of the one I shot at The Pin Shoot last week, the scores/candidates stand at:

1. SA Loaded (by a considerable margin)

The rest:
2. SA Ronin
3. Ruger 1911
4. Colt Competition
(all these are within 10%, so no real difference)

Looking over the numbers, it's not surprising. I weighted the price of the additional thumb safety fairly heavily. The SA Loaded comes with a Ambi fitted, the rest don't, so it had a distinct advantage. I really do just want to buy it and shoot it, not fiddle with learning to gunsmith a 1911, or send the gun off for weeks and weeks to have a part fitted.

At this point there's not a lot I can do, FFL wise, till I get back to Florida in September. I will continue to tinker with my spreadsheet and look at options on Gunbroker. When I get home, I can start looking at my local gun shops in Sarasota to fondle one or more of these to see how they look, and explore options to shoot rental examples.

I have also cleared this purchase with SWMBO, so I got that going for me. :cool:


awp_101 thanks for starting this thread. I appreciate all the helpful comments, it's been a great resource.

[Jim Watson]

Thanks, good info. I'll go look at what a "Series 70" gun entails.

In 21st century internet speak, even Colt advertising lingo, "Series 70" is taken to mean "Lacking a mechanical firing pin block."
The firing pin obstruction was introduced by Colt as the "Series 80"... in 1983.
It has been being phased out for the last several years, Colt makes guns both with and without.

In 1970 "Series 70" meant "The Accurizor collet type barrel bushing is installed."

[Evil_Ed]

A correct "Series 70" gun from Colt includes a special/specific barrel ("Accurizer" barrel IRC), and a barrel bushing with fingers on it specifically fit for that specific barrel. The idea was to get a more accurate 1911 out of the box without involved gunsmithing or barrel fitting; the fingers on the barrel bushing let it sort of self center with the barrel, and produce a very repeatable lockup.

The problem was, those bushings would break, with frequency. Colt discontinued use of them in the 1980s and went back to a standard barrel bushing.

As Colt introduced the Series 80 afterwards with a firing pin safety as a part of it, people started calling any non-firing-pin-safety a "Series 70"...which is a misnomer. The best way to describe it would be a "GI" or "standard" 1911 fire control system.

Series 80 is Colt's specific firing pin safety. Kimber uses a Swartz-style firing pin safety, and S&W uses a modified Swartz system (both being controlled by the grip safety, while Colt's S80 setup disengages the firing pin safety via trigger manipulation).

But, now that everyone calls any non firing pin safety gun a "Series 70"...sigh.

Basically, whenever anyone says "Series 70" these days, they mean a standard, normal, every day M1911-styled gun without a firing pin safety - generally.

Edit - looks like the poster above beat me to the main points..

[Jim Watson]

SIG, Taurus, and Para Ordnance copied the Colt Series 80, the timing seems like they waited for the patent to expire.

Kimber's is a very close copy of the 1930s Colt Swartz. The SW1911 linkage is different, I have seen the designer's name but do not recall it.

They all require "timing" of the action, the hammer block has to clear before the sear releases the hammer. Not all did, but they seem to have the bugs out by now.

[JTQ]

The SW1911 linkage is different, I have seen the designer's name but do not recall it.

Richard Mochak, an S&W Engineer

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6374526B1/en

[JonInWA]

You know, it's hardly on anyone's radar anymore, but an excellent, but chronically underrrated non-1911 DA/SA (and maybe the unicorn DAO).45 ACP semi-auto is the Ruger P90. The accuracy, durability and reliability are generally outstanding, and the ergos surprisingly good. I haven't checked, but I assume that decent guns and OEM magazines are both available and reasonably inexpensive. Just a thought.

Best, Jon

[John Hearne]

Anyone have experience with the P220 Super Match? Five-inch barrel (long slide for a P220), adjustable rear sight, SAO. The P220 version of a Government model. I remember one of the 1911 dorks on one of those forums saying it was more accurate than his 1911s, at least in his hands.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/936306842

John Hearne

I carried a variant for a long time. I had an Elite stainless frame and one of the small number of 5" slides with fixed night sights. Loved shooting it but the stainless frames eat small parts. I swapped to a P320 when I broke another breach block. That particular model has the HD takedown lever which is highly recommended.

[TheNewbie]

How is the durability and reliability of the P220 these days? Of the magazines?

[Evil_Ed]

I carried a variant for a long time. I had an Elite stainless frame and one of the small number of 5" slides with fixed night sights. Loved shooting it but the stainless frames eat small parts. I swapped to a P320 when I broke another breach block. That particular model has the HD takedown lever which is highly recommended.

Hmm, which small parts? I have a P220-SBSS (steel frame, standard 4.whatever" slide/barrel) that I love but haven't shot/carried much...it's a bit of a tank, but man does it calm a 45 down. Not quite as much as a CZ97, but still...

But, in the interests of science...maybe I should stock up on known wearables for it? This one btw has the 'modern' stainless/milled slide; not the pressed/folded with a separate breach block.

[OlongJohnson]

Hmm, which small parts? I have a P220-SBSS (steel frame, standard 4.whatever" slide/barrel) that I love but haven't shot/carried much...it's a bit of a tank, but man does it calm a 45 down. Not quite as much as a CZ97, but still...

But, in the interests of science...maybe I should stock up on known wearables for it? This one btw has the 'modern' stainless/milled slide; not the pressed/folded with a separate breach block.

Factory P220-1 mags are generally regarded as uber-reliable, which is one of the nice things about P220s I pointed out earlier. There isn't any question of what mags to use.

This is the P226 diagram, but I believe the parts John intended to describe were # 19 and #36:

https://www.sigsauer.com/sig-sauer-small-parts-shoppers/p226-parts-picker

I've seen both billet and MIM versions of #19 and there are several variants of #36. My recollection is that "circle-dot" versions of #36 are the way to go if you can find them. I'd be interested in a chromoly steel version from the aftermarket.

There's another post around here where John lays out his recommended maintenance intervals for classic Sigs. I suggest finding it and PDFing it.

The long-slide, steel-frame versions of the P220 were redesigned and beefed up to handle the additional stresses of 10mm when production was moved to the U.S. The exaggerated beavertail that can be seen on German-made Super Match guns was also reduced, allowing the frame to fit in the IDPA "box." I'm not aware of any of those US-built, steel frame, long-slide guns being chambered for .45 Auto. I've handled them, and they are tanks. I really like the long slide/aluminum frame combo of the Super Match, and a standard-length steel frame P220 or P226 is pretty nice, too. Wish I could find one of those fixed-sight long slides, but John has mentioned in the past that there were only about 75 (if I remember right) made.

Somewhere on this site, TLG mentioned that he thought the steel-frame Sigs would be amazing, but he wasn't any faster or more accurate through a stage with them than with an aluminum frame gun. Still, an all-steel P226 or P229 in 9mm should be an excellent "old man gun." But that's for another thread.

[awp_101]

How is the durability and reliability of the P220 these days? Of the magazines?

I tend to forget about the 220. I'd be interested how the recoil "feels" compared to a 1911 with plain old 230 ball.

[HeavyDuty]

I tend to forget about the 220. I'd be interested how the recoil "feels" compared to a 1911 with plain old 230 ball.

I really like mine. It may go into rotation.

[ccmdfd]

I really like mine. It may go into rotation.

Wish I hadn't sold my two; an older stamped slide and one of the first generation ST series. That ST model had one of the nicest factory triggers.

[CSW]

Perhaps over 10 years ago, I had a Sig P245, the compact 45.
One of the softest recoils in a 45 I've felt.

My g36 wasn't bad either.
The XDS in 45 was brutal on my arthritis.

[BWT]

I’ll leave this right here…

https://aimsurplus.com/products/leo-trade-in-glock-21-gen-4-45-auto-handgun_2?mc_cid=59086b774e&mc_eid=4e08a318cd

[john c]

Looking at the SA web site, TRP MSRP ranges from $1,695 to $1,780. The Loaded series ranges from $978 to $1,347. What does a TRP give you that isn't on a Loaded? My initial takeaway is that I'd be ok with the Loaded, but I'm probably missing something that the TRP has.



I've had good luck with the Springfield Trophy Match. It's a TRP, but with adjustable Bo-mar type sights. These are very useful for competition shooting. I pick them up used off Gunbroker for a fraction of new prices. Typically, they have a few boxes of ammo through them. They go for much less than the TRP, being a less sexy model.

I have a number of higher-end 1911s, and my favorite is a stainless Trophy Match. It just runs, and is reasonably accurate. I also won't cry if I drop it on the gravel at the range.

[RJ]

I’ll leave this right here…

https://aimsurplus.com/products/leo-trade-in-glock-21-gen-4-45-auto-handgun_2?mc_cid=59086b774e&mc_eid=4e08a318cd

90450

[RJ]

I've had good luck with the Springfield Trophy Match. It's a TRP, but with adjustable Bo-mar type sights. These are very useful for competition shooting. I pick them up used off Gunbroker for a fraction of new prices. Typically, they have a few boxes of ammo through them. They go for much less than the TRP, being a less sexy model.

I have a number of higher-end 1911s, and my favorite is a stainless Trophy Match. It just runs, and is reasonably accurate. I also won't cry if I drop it on the gravel at the range.

Thanks, I hadn’t thought of a used 1911, as I’m not familiar with “what to look for” in a used one. Having said that, I know many used guns in excellent condition as out there at great prices.

[DamonL]

Do you need a 1911?

You need a 1911 if:

1. You want the best trigger of any handgun made. A 1911 trigger can be made to be really really nice.
2. You want a modular grip. Long or short trigger. Arched or flat mainspring housing. Slim or standard grips.
3. You want an accurate gun. A 1911 is usually accurate enough, but it can be made to be bullseye accurate. As in laser accurate.
4. You want a classic firearm. Like classic cars and classic motorcycles, the 1911 is something that doesn't go out of style. If you bought a Pachmayr Combat Special 30 years ago, it would still be relevant today.
5. You want to tinker and customize. So many parts and accessories to try.
6. You want a steel gun. It might have a plastic mainspring housing, but generally they are steel and wood grips.
7. You want to learn about a gun by trouble shooting issues. Magazines, springs, extractor tension, all need attention.
8. You want to explore the 1911 sub-culture. Go over to 1911forums or 1911addicts.
9. You want to own a John Browning design. That guy was a genius.
11. You want the feel of heavy recoil when you shoot. Way better than 9mm. You believe in Thompson-Lagarde and bowling pins.
12. Because 1911 means America.

[Evil_Ed]

Factory P220-1 mags are generally regarded as uber-reliable, which is one of the nice things about P220s I pointed out earlier. There isn't any question of what mags to use.

This is the P226 diagram, but I believe the parts John intended to describe were # 19 and #36:

https://www.sigsauer.com/sig-sauer-small-parts-shoppers/p226-parts-picker

I've seen both billet and MIM versions of #19 and there are several variants of #36. My recollection is that "circle-dot" versions of #36 are the way to go if you can find them. I'd be interested in a chromoly steel version from the aftermarket.

There's another post around here where John lays out his recommended maintenance intervals for classic Sigs. I suggest finding it and PDFing it.

The long-slide, steel-frame versions of the P220 were redesigned and beefed up to handle the additional stresses of 10mm when production was moved to the U.S. The exaggerated beavertail that can be seen on German-made Super Match guns was also reduced, allowing the frame to fit in the IDPA "box." I'm not aware of any of those US-built, steel frame, long-slide guns being chambered for .45 Auto. I've handled them, and they are tanks. I really like the long slide/aluminum frame combo of the Super Match, and a standard-length steel frame P220 or P226 is pretty nice, too. Wish I could find one of those fixed-sight long slides, but John has mentioned in the past that there were only about 75 (if I remember right) made.

Somewhere on this site, TLG mentioned that he thought the steel-frame Sigs would be amazing, but he wasn't any faster or more accurate through a stage with them than with an aluminum frame gun. Still, an all-steel P226 or P229 in 9mm should be an excellent "old man gun." But that's for another thread.

Ahh, the locking block; I thought he meant the pinned in breech block in the slide in the older folded slide versions. I was trying to think how that'd break :)

I have a 10mm P220 long slide as well as the standard length all steel P220 in 45; admittedly my round count on the 10mm is less than 300 rounds I think...probably around only 500 on the 45 one as well. My 10mm is one of the Reverse Two-Tone Lipsey guns (https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php/products_id/719000446/sig+sauer+220r510rtasmse+p220+match+el+10mm+5+nigh t+sights+2tone); fixed sights, etc. If it were only a double-stack...if Sig ever came out with a 10mm P227, that might ignite a good bit of interest.

Anyway, yeah, I could see both the locking block and take down lever having some issues with the all steel frame not having as much "give"...I should dig both of mine out of the safe and catalog what kind of takedown lever and locking blocks they have, hm.

[Patrick Taylor]

CZ has a 45 chambered P10 , have watched local ships for one but so far I have only seen pictures.

[Elwin]

Thanks, I hadn’t thought of a used 1911, as I’m not familiar with “what to look for” in a used one. Having said that, I know many used guns in excellent condition as out there at great prices.

I’d wager you have good odds as long as it’s not noticeably modified from stock. If it’s a model you can look up the factory configuration of to compare and be reasonably sure no parts are swapped, chances are good it’s had a few boxes through it and that’s all.

If you do start browsing used, keep Dan Wesson on your list. If you can find one in your price range, they’re excellent guns for the price. Note - avoid the Vigil series. Nothing wrong with them but they’re all aluminum frame, including the government model, which is somewhat rare.

ETA - rare being the aluminum framed gov model, not the Vigil, which is actually the easiest example of that configuration to find. Cool gun but probably not what you’re looking for.

[okie john]

snip...4. If you bought a Pachmayr Combat Special 30 years ago, it would still be relevant today.

Very much this.

I have fond memories of the 1911A1 in .45 ACP, including winning more than a little lunch money from unsuspecting rubes and getting myself out of a tight spot on a summer evening 30 years ago in a parking lot in downtown Seattle. These days, a Clark or Pachmayr 1911 with a satin-nickel frame and a blued slide is about the only reason I'd pick a 45 ACP for anything other than a very specialized deer hunt in the San Juan Islands.


Okie John

[SecondsCount]

There has been a lot of input here already but I will say that the whole "1911s are unreliable" has been blown way out of proportion over the years. I carried and shot a 1911 for 20 years before moving to HK. Although the 1911 was a little more maintenance intensive, reliability was not a reason for making the move.

Dan Wesson is still making one of the best 1911s for the money right now. A step down from there would be a Springfield or a Magnum Research 1911. Some will say Colt but I've seen too many issues with their standard models to recommend one.

[OlongJohnson]

You know, it's hardly on anyone's radar anymore, but an excellent, but chronically underrrated non-1911 DA/SA (and maybe the unicorn DAO).45 ACP semi-auto is the Ruger P90. The accuracy, durability and reliability are generally outstanding, and the ergos surprisingly good. I haven't checked, but I assume that decent guns and OEM magazines are both available and reasonably inexpensive. Just a thought.

Best, Jon

One of my coworkers picked up a P345 because it was cheap. Uses it for shots of opportunity and defense if needed against wild hogs at his country place. He's happy with it so far. He's had the issue where the magazine keeps some of the guts in position and aligned, so it gets all messed up if it's dry-fired with the mag out. I don't remember whether he had to buy parts or was able to just tweak something back to how it was. Hasn't talked about any issues since that. I'm kind of down with it as a lightweight, poly frame single stack. Shoots big bullets but nice and slim like a 1911 with a TDA trigger. Think he paid about $200 pre-pandemic.

[Oldherkpilot]

Very much this.

I have fond memories of the 1911A1 in .45 ACP, including winning more than a little lunch money from unsuspecting rubes and getting myself out of a tight spot on a summer evening 30 years ago in a parking lot in downtown Seattle. These days, a Clark or Pachmayr 1911 with a satin-nickel frame and a blued slide is about the only reason I'd pick a 45 ACP for anything other than a very specialized deer hunt in the San Juan Islands.


Okie John

I'm with you on this. I have a Combat Special but consider it a barbeque gun these days. I have a Marvel unit on the frame for the wife to shoot bullseye with. Trigger is too light for my not quite right trigger finger. That Colt is the only custom gun I own, which makes it a pretty special piece. But if I had to pull out a .45 for serious work, it'd be the HK 45C next to it.

[john c]

Thanks, I hadn’t thought of a used 1911, as I’m not familiar with “what to look for” in a used one. Having said that, I know many used guns in excellent condition as out there at great prices.

I rarely buy a new gun, especially a 1911. There are so many good used ones out there, it seems like a waste of money. Most guns aren’t shot much. I think that’s even more true for 1911s.

That said, if you want certain features or a new model, you may have to buy new.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sharps54]

I rarely buy a new gun, especially a 1911. There are so many good used ones out there, it seems like a waste of money. Most guns aren’t shot much. I think that’s even more true for 1911s.

That said, if you want certain features or a new model, you may have to buy new.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If it is box stock that’s one thing but am very wary of buying a customized gun without knowing and trusting the person or shop that did the work.

[JTQ]

If it is box stock that’s one thing but am very wary of buying a customized gun without knowing and trusting the person or shop that did the work.
I agree with this.

There are too many aftermarket parts available for the 1911, and too many people that think since they pieced together a Glock or an AR, that they can "gunsmith" a 1911. There are a lot of 1911's that left the factory as perfectly functioning guns, that were turned into expensive paperweights by their owners who couldn't leave well enough alone.

[RJ]

I agree with this.

There are too many aftermarket parts available for the 1911, and too many people that think since the pieced together a Glock or an AR, that they can "gunsmith" a 1911. There are a lot of 1911's that left the factory as perfectly functioning guns, that were turned into expensive paperweights by their owners who couldn't leave well enough alone.

Yeah, kinda where my head is at. If we are talking a used WC or a used DW, or any other equivalent $3k-$k guns, getting one of those used in (likely) good shape would be great.

But "for me" we are most likely talking a one and done purchase. At $1k or less, it's not likely to break the bank. In fact most probably scenario is I end up selling a gun I'm not using much, for one I can have a lot of fun with. So (and again, this is just for me) I will end up with a new purchase but down in the bottom feeder category. I intend to follow the guidance from above, which is buy/use WC or Chip McCormack mags, shoot quality ball ammo (I have some American Eagle and PMC Bronze 230 FMJ left over from the pin shoot) and not mess with it except to lube and clean it.

[farscott]

Yeah, kinda where my head is at. If we are talking a used WC or a used DW, or any other equivalent $3k-$k guns, getting one of those used in (likely) good shape would be great.

But "for me" we are most likely talking a one and done purchase. At $1k or less, it's not likely to break the bank. In fact most probably scenario is I end up selling a gun I'm not using much, for one I can have a lot of fun with. So (and again, this is just for me) I will end up with a new purchase but down in the bottom feeder category. I intend to follow the guidance from above, which is buy/use WC or Chip McCormack mags, shoot quality ball ammo (I have some American Eagle and PMC Bronze 230 FMJ left over from the pin shoot) and not mess with it except to lube and clean it.

1911-pattern pistols are very, very addictive. There are objectively better weapons, but the 1911 carries, points, and shoots very well. The shooting characteristics, combined with the cache of being a US service weapon for 100-plus years and elegant lines, make the 1911-pattern pistol either an obsession or an addiction. Not sure which it is, but they seem to multiply in my safe. I currently have examples in 9x19, 9x23 Winchester, 10mm Auto, and .45 ACP and have had samples in other chambering such as .40 S&W.

All of that is to say, they can be like Lays potato chips. It is hard to stop after the first one.

[TheNewbie]

There is part of me that wants an RIA 1911 just for the fun of having one.

Recently I was reminded of why I don’t want a 1911 sans FP safety. I was putting my P32 in my pocket and I somehow missed my pocket and the gun went tumbling to the floor. It hit the floor and the P32 bounced out of the holster.

Thankfully it has a FP safety.

I’ve never dropped a gun like that before, but it finally happened to me. No excuse, but I was likely dealing with a decent case of heat exhaustion/dehydration.


I wish the Series 80 was more common. If I could be gifted a .45 right now, I think I would go with a basic P220.

[Ichiban]

1911-pattern pistols are very, very addictive. There are objectively better weapons, but the 1911 carries, points, and shoots very well. The shooting characteristics, combined with the cache of being a US service weapon for 100-plus years and elegant lines, make the 1911-pattern pistol either an obsession or an addiction. Not sure which it is, but they seem to multiply in my safe. I currently have examples in 9x19, 9x23 Winchester, 10mm Auto, and .45 ACP and have had samples in other chambering such as .40 S&W.

All of that is to say, they can be like Lays potato chips. It is hard to stop after the first one.

They certainly have a very strong pull for many of us. Others seem to have some sort of immunity to that siren song. I, for one, have greatly enjoyed the trip.
90502

[john c]

There is part of me that wants an RIA 1911 just for the fun of having one.

Recently I was reminded of why I don’t want a 1911 sans FP safety. I was putting my P32 in my pocket and I somehow missed my pocket and the gun went tumbling to the floor. It hit the floor and the P32 bounced out of the holster.

Thankfully it has a FP safety.

I’ve never dropped a gun like that before, but it finally happened to me. No excuse, but I was likely dealing with a decent case of heat exhaustion/dehydration.


I wish the Series 80 was more common. If I could be gifted a .45 right now, I think I would go with a basic P220.

I’m glad you’re okay, both from the dropped pistol and mostly from the heat exhaustion.

This is a perfect example of why we need redundant safeties. Not when we’re well rested, on a square range, but when we’re sick and distracted.

That said, modern 1911s without a FP safety generally have lightweight firing pins that don’t have enough mass to set off a primer when dropped from a certain height.

For my uses, that suffices. I only shoot 1911s recreationally, so I’m not concerned about a bump greater than normal unintentionally discharging the pistol, like in a car accident. I prefer an actual FP safety for carry or duty use.


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[TheNewbie]

I’m glad you’re okay, both from the dropped pistol and mostly from the heat exhaustion.

This is a perfect example of why we need redundant safeties. Not when we’re well rested, on a square range, but when we’re sick and distracted.

That said, modern 1911s without a FP safety generally have lightweight firing pins that don’t have enough mass to set off a primer when dropped from a certain height.

For my uses, that suffices. I only shoot 1911s recreationally, so I’m not concerned about a bump greater than normal unintentionally discharging the pistol, like in a car accident. I prefer an actual FP safety for carry or duty use.


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Thank you. You very well may be right, but I would never *personally* feel comfortable with one. It may be an over the top thing, but it’s probably something to be aware of.

I wish I could be convinced they were drop safe, there are many I would like to look at just for the sake of having them.

[JonInWA]

On their current (and reasonably recent contempory) production Series 70 (non-firing pin safety) 1911s, I believe Colt uses the combination of a titanium firing pin and an extra-strength firing pin spring. That's sufficient for me.

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

That said, modern 1911s without a FP safety generally have lightweight firing pins that don’t have enough mass to set off a primer when dropped from a certain height.


If anybody is interested in what those heights may be, the Drake Oldham 1911 drop tests

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

[Elwin]

On their current (and reasonably recent contempory) production Series 70 (non-firing pin safety) 1911s, I believe Colt uses the combination of a titanium firing pin and an extra-strength firing pin spring. That's sufficient for me.

Best, Jon

Ed Browns, and I think maybe Wilsons as well, get a similar result by using extra power FP springs and putting 9mm firing pins in all guns regardless of caliber. I gather the idea is to get to a sufficiently drop safe weight but still have a steel pin instead of titanium.

I’m personally fine with a mechanical drop safety or with the extra power spring plus 9mm or TI pin, but I also totally get why, for example, TLG specified Series 80 for his Heirloom build. If I was building a custom pistol I’d do the same.

[OlongJohnson]

If anybody is interested in what those heights may be, the Drake Oldham 1911 drop tests

http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm

Noticed he used Winchester primers. I've had a gun run 100 percent on HST and fail to fire most of a magazine of Winchester white box when I messed with a too-light hammer spring.

[SecondsCount]

Noticed he used Winchester primers. I've had a gun run 100 percent on HST and fail to fire most of a magazine of Winchester white box when I messed with a too-light hammer spring.

You have a point. Federal 100 SPP are know to have the thinnest cup of all small pistol primers.

[RJ]

Another to add to the list of $1K MSRP 1911's - S&W E Series?

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/1911-e-series?sku=108482

90525

MSRP of $1,037 for sku 108482, so it fits in with my target budget. No Ambi safety, but I can get around that; like all the other non-ambi options, I would just run it for a while as is and if things worked out, as a lefty I would get it fitted later, deferring that cost to down the road. Per the above discussion, the spec sheet says "titanium firing pin" which I infer means it is a Series 70 design. Steel three dot sights. Stainless with wood laminate grips; so BBQ gun factor would be high.

Anyone with previous experience with one of these?

[fatdog]

Anyone with previous experience with one of these?

My veterinarian who is also a member of my gun club has had that stainless E series government model for years. I have shot his several times, it is solid and he reports zero issues, decent accuracy. He shoots it in single stack division once in a while. Sample of one.

His positive experience with that gun influenced me to buy one of the similar Pro series government models, but for my irrational negative attitude toward all stainless 1911's I might have gotten that one.

[JTQ]

Another to add to the list of $1K MSRP 1911's - S&W E Series?

...the spec sheet says "titanium firing pin" which I infer means it is a Series 70 design.

When introduced, the original S&W 1911's came with the Mochak designed firing pin safety operating off the grip safety. The introduction of the "E-Series" dropped the firing pin safety feature and as you note, use a titanium firing pin.

[OlongJohnson]

Anyone with previous experience with one of these?

Not one of those, but IME, S&W is the Brandon of firearms manufacturers. Never underestimate it's ability to f things up.

I can't remember inspecting a new production gun from them any time in the past seven years that didn't have some obvious flaw that shouldn't have made it out of the factory. I've received three guns that were not able to be used at all as shipped by the factory, and one that was fundamentally screwed up but could be used. One got returned to the seller, and it appeared that they inspected their entire inventory of that SKU and sent the lot of them back to S&W, presumably with the same problem. One was an SD9VE that failed in a way that could have deadlined it in the middle of a gunfight. It also had another amazing problem (striker was bent along its whole length like a banana) that I assume was causing light strikes, which is why it was so cheap with the appearance of so few rounds through it. At least they shipped me parts for free. Two went back home. Of those, one was returned with paperwork saying it was fixed but it wasn't fixed. Follow-up phone call revealed S&W didn't have inventory of the part that needed to be replaced, so the gun was a paperweight. The other one came back with the original problem fixed but new amazingly bad gunplumbing having been inflicted on it.

At this point, I don't really care what they build. It's on the do not buy list.

[SecondsCount]

I have a good friend who has carried an E series 1911 for about 10 years. We have shot in matches together several times and it has always run well.

My only issue with them is the external extractor, but that is mainly because it is a proprietary item. I can purchase internal extractors from a dozen different sources but the external version has to come from S&W. If they ever decide to cease production, like they did with the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen autos, parts become much harder to get. For added insurance against this, you could buy a couple spares right off the bat and be good for many years.

[RJ]

Not one of those, but IME, S&W is the Brandon of firearms manufacturers. Never underestimate it's ability to f things up.

I can't remember inspecting a new production gun from them any time in the past seven years that didn't have some obvious flaw that shouldn't have made it out of the factory. I've received three guns that were not able to be used at all as shipped by the factory, and one that was fundamentally screwed up but could be used. One got returned to the seller, and it appeared that they inspected their entire inventory of that SKU and sent the lot of them back to S&W, presumably with the same problem. One was an SD9VE that failed in a way that could have deadlined it in the middle of a gunfight. It also had another amazing problem (striker was bent along its whole length like a banana) that I assume was causing light strikes, which is why it was so cheap with the appearance of so few rounds through it. At least they shipped me parts for free. Two went back home. Of those, one was returned with paperwork saying it was fixed but it wasn't fixed. Follow-up phone call revealed S&W didn't have inventory of the part that needed to be replaced, so the gun was a paperweight. The other one came back with the original problem fixed but new amazingly bad gunplumbing having been inflicted on it.

At this point, I don't really care what they build. It's on the do not buy list.

Oof. Thanks.

Slight thread diversion: This S&W experience is reflected in my attempting to purchase a lightweight .38 revolver a few year ago. I tried out numerous examples of J-frames from Smith, all of which felt "creepy" and ill-finished to my very inexperienced hands. I ended up buying a fell-out-of-the-ugly-tree-and-hit-every-branch Ruger LCR, which has worked perfectly for me ever since. This is another reason I like the Ruger 1911; previous positive experience.

I did end up putting all these options into a spreadsheet. My weighted evaluation scores aren't important, but in the event someone else is pondering a 1911 at the same price point, the upper part, with all the features cross compared is snapped below.

90526


Barring any other pop up options, right now I probably have enough info to go gun shopping. If ya'll see any key aspect of this that I'm missing, lemme know. I don't know what I don't know.

The eventual purchase will likely depend on what's available, obviously. I'm probably leaning towards the Colt or Ruger, with the Colt being number 1. I'll keep an open mind on used options as well, and won't pass up a good opportunity to snag a decent working example, especially guns which are higher price point new but inside my mythical $1K budget.

[Bucky]

Another to add to the list of $1K MSRP 1911's - S&W E Series?

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/1911-e-series?sku=108482

90525

MSRP of $1,037 for sku 108482, so it fits in with my target budget. No Ambi safety, but I can get around that; like all the other non-ambi options, I would just run it for a while as is and if things worked out, as a lefty I would get it fitted later, deferring that cost to down the road. Per the above discussion, the spec sheet says "titanium firing pin" which I infer means it is a Series 70 design. Steel three dot sights. Stainless with wood laminate grips; so BBQ gun factor would be high.

Anyone with previous experience with one of these?

Never had an E series, but after the experience I had with my Smith 1911, I'd never buy another. YMMV.

[45dotACP]

Oof. Thanks.

Slight thread diversion: This S&W experience is reflected in my attempting to purchase a lightweight .38 revolver a few year ago. I tried out numerous examples of J-frames from Smith, all of which felt "creepy" and ill-finished to my very inexperienced hands. I ended up buying a fell-out-of-the-ugly-tree-and-hit-every-branch Ruger LCR, which has worked perfectly for me ever since. This is another reason I like the Ruger 1911; previous positive experience.

I did end up putting all these options into a spreadsheet. My weighted evaluation scores aren't important, but in the event someone else is pondering a 1911 at the same price point, the upper part, with all the features cross compared is snapped below.

90526


Barring any other pop up options, right now I probably have enough info to go gun shopping. If ya'll see any key aspect of this that I'm missing, lemme know. I don't know what I don't know.

The eventual purchase will likely depend on what's available, obviously. I'm probably leaning towards the Colt or Ruger, with the Colt being number 1. I'll keep an open mind on used options as well, and won't pass up a good opportunity to snag a decent working example, especially guns which are higher price point new but inside my mythical $1K budget.Honestly I'd probably go with the Ruger just by virtue of the plunger tube being a part of the frame and not staked on

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[RJ]

Honestly I'd probably go with the Ruger just by virtue of the plunger tube being a part of the frame and not staked on


Thanks.

For the sake of me and anyone else who has no clue what this means, can you explain (briefly) why this is important?

[45dotACP]

Thanks.

For the sake of me and anyone else who has no clue what this means, can you explain (briefly) why this is important?

Tl;DR version: A wiggly plunger tube causes problems with getting the thumb safety permanently stuck in the "on" position if not correctly installed, and a lot of companies don't correctly install them. Just one more thing to fix usually.

Longer version: Lots of 1911 guys will only buy grips if they "support the plunger tube" so that the plunger tube is less likely to get knocked loose. It allows you to buy basically whatever kinda grips you want if the plunger tube is integral to the frame.

[john c]

Oof. Thanks.

Slight thread diversion: This S&W experience is reflected in my attempting to purchase a lightweight .38 revolver a few year ago. I tried out numerous examples of J-frames from Smith, all of which felt "creepy" and ill-finished to my very inexperienced hands. I ended up buying a fell-out-of-the-ugly-tree-and-hit-every-branch Ruger LCR, which has worked perfectly for me ever since. This is another reason I like the Ruger 1911; previous positive experience.

I did end up putting all these options into a spreadsheet. My weighted evaluation scores aren't important, but in the event someone else is pondering a 1911 at the same price point, the upper part, with all the features cross compared is snapped below.

90526


Barring any other pop up options, right now I probably have enough info to go gun shopping. If ya'll see any key aspect of this that I'm missing, lemme know. I don't know what I don't know.

The eventual purchase will likely depend on what's available, obviously. I'm probably leaning towards the Colt or Ruger, with the Colt being number 1. I'll keep an open mind on used options as well, and won't pass up a good opportunity to snag a decent working example, especially guns which are higher price point new but inside my mythical $1K budget.

First off, that E series pistol does have front strap checkering. Your spreadsheet shows that it doesn’t.

I personally think that front strap checkering on a 1911 is a VERY desirable feature. Strongly consider it.

Second, you are shopping for a target gun, but have selected combat models with fixed sights. That’s not a deal breaker, but is not ideal when zeroing for different ammo. WWB 230 gr ball ammo may very well hit differently than the Federal equivalent. Bowling pins are narrow targets.

I’m not a lefty, but if I was I would not buy a pistol without ambi safeties. But I would trade this off to get front strap checkering.


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[LockedBreech]

For what it's worth, I'm getting a Smith E-Series 1911 (108482LE) next month. It's for personal reasons related to a case I worked with a few good LEOs who got shot at, plus I was able to get LE pricing on it ($803 after tax and shipping.)

So I will report back my experiences. Here's hoping I end up in the "yay" camp, especially since I bought four Wilson HD +P magazines, 500 rounds of Norma FMJ, four boxes of 230-grain Gold Dot, and a Mitch Rosen holster for it, and not the "screw these forever" camp, but we shall see. I'll report honestly, regardless.

[That Guy]

For the sake of me and anyone else who has no clue what this means, can you explain (briefly) why this is important?

A loose plunger tube can, as explained, cause an issue by interfering with the movement of the thumb the safety. Stocks that support the tube are a partial help, but if the plunger tube in your gun comes loose it really does need to be re-staked. With the proper tool this is very easy to do, but you do need to notice the issue in time and you'll need the proper tool.

I'm afraid it's one of the weaknesses of the 1911 design. I would recommend checking the plunger tube as part of a normal cleaning and maintenance routine.



I personally think that front strap checkering on a 1911 is a VERY desirable feature. Strongly consider it.


A bit of grip tape works as a cheap fix. I don't see front checkering being that important. Aside from being more aesthetically pleasing than tape on the grip, of course.

[sharps54]

First off, that E series pistol does have front strap checkering. Your spreadsheet shows that it doesn’t.

I personally think that front strap checkering on a 1911 is a VERY desirable feature. Strongly consider it.

Second, you are shopping for a target gun, but have selected combat models with fixed sights. That’s not a deal breaker, but is not ideal when zeroing for different ammo. WWB 230 gr ball ammo may very well hit differently than the Federal equivalent. Bowling pins are narrow targets.

I’m not a lefty, but if I was I would not buy a pistol without ambi safeties. But I would trade this off to get front strap checkering.


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RJ is there a reason you are discounting the Ruger Target with the adjustable sights and factory ambi safety? Have you heard something bad about them?

Edit to add I’m with That Guy on front strap checkering, it’s nice but you can always put skateboard tape on there to get the same effect.

[RJ]

RJ is there a reason you are discounting the Ruger Target with the adjustable sights and factory ambi safety? Have you heard something bad about them?

Edit to add I’m with That Guy on front strap checkering, it’s nice but you can always put skateboard tape on there to get the same effect.

Is that a model 6736?

*checks Ruger web site*

Faaaaaaaa...$1,229? Woah.

I hadn’t considered the Target because I assumed it was way outside my price range. Ambi/adjustable sights + Ruger + Stainless at a bit over $1k...that is a powerful combination. I may have to dig into the couch cushions to see if I can stretch my budget a bit.

[RJ]

Ok, I went to two local gun shops here in Northern Michigan today to check out 1911s.

Shop 1 had four or five, one was a used RIA Ultra Match in 10mm at $679. I fiddled with it a bit and was impressed. Ambi Safety was smooth operating, and clicked on and off crisply. He also had a Kimber in .45, but I have some recollection of folks posting of their issues with Kimber.

Shop 2 only had one, a rental RIA Rock Standard. It had the very plain wood grips, and felt fairly um I dunno, unrefined? Hard to say. They had this one marked at $549.

But: Shop 2 also had a rental range, max 10 yards. I plan to return and shoot the RIA, probably next week. I’ll bring my Glock 34 for a comparison, inasmuch as I am pretty familiar with it. Will be back with a range report when complete.

[OlongJohnson]

I’ll bring my Glock 34 for a comparison, inasmuch as I am pretty familiar with it. Will be back with a range report when complete.

Does 180gr .40 move the pins well enough to contemplate just getting a G35?

-----------------

Let's go down the ammo rabbit hole.

Do people load up 250gr loads in .45 to have extra momentum? Gets into .45 Super territory pretty quickly with the reduction in case volume, but would be workable with a USP.

What projectiles are preferred? Hardcast? JHP? FMJ? Does a broad flat point or JHP work better on angled impacts than a round nose?

Seems like more deformable would transfer momentum more effectively. At .45 velocity, heavy-for-caliber and just hard enough to avoid leading would be the way to go. Or am I not thinking about that the right way?

[SecondsCount]

What were the sights like on the RIA? If they are GI style minimal sights, you may be disappointed.

Some people really like their RIA but the early models that I saw had some fitment issues and a lot of small part breakages. I would look at Tisas before going Rock Island as the one I saw looked a little better finished.

Gunbroker listing for a Desert Eagle Blem with Rail, Adj sights $659
(https://www.gunbroker.com/item/937499075)

[RJ]

Does 180gr .40 move the pins well enough to contemplate just getting a G35?

-----------------

Let's go down the ammo rabbit hole.

Do people load up 250gr loads in .45 to have extra momentum? Gets into .45 Super territory pretty quickly with the reduction in case volume, but would be workable with a USP.

What projectiles are preferred? Hardcast? JHP? FMJ? Does a broad flat point or JHP work better on angled impacts than a round nose?

Seems like more deformable would transfer momentum more effectively. At .45 velocity, heavy-for-caliber and just hard enough to avoid leading would be the way to go. Or am I not thinking about that the right way?

I can offer a contrast with .45 ACP, but in 9mm, not .40.

For one of the "Events" I entered, I used my P365X carry gun. It has a HS 407k. I had been told that 9mm does not have the power factor to blast the pins off the table, but hey, it was what I brought. I loaded the zippiest stuff I had, which was Speer Gold Dot 124+p, and stepped to the line.

This run is typical. Five rounds, five hits. The pins were mostly just knocked over; I had to continue shooting in order to attempt to get them off the table completely to score. This run was a "15.0" i.e. failed to knock pins off table.


https://youtu.be/ujd8JaHlhYQ


In terms of bullet type, I was advised that the flat profile of hollow points would bite into the pins, so a hit on a pin would tend to not just glance off. Compare the 9mm run above with this one I posted in the earlier part of this thread, copied again for convenience. Here I was shooting Mas's SA TGO II with JHP +p .45 (Winchester, I believe).


https://youtu.be/L-IfJnGzGlM

Notice when I hit ("when" lol) the pins, they pop off the table fairly smartly. This is what you have to do to score well. IIRC this is one of the runs where I did fairly well, i.e. about 7.5s, with two misses. The match winner was averaging 5.7s per table.

So not being a .40 shooter I'm not sure where it would fall, but one suspects a hot .40 out of a G35 would be more effective than a 9mm HP, but perhaps less effective than a .45? I dunno.

Most everyone was shooting a 5" 1911 in .45, but that may have more to do with demographics / tradition than analytics as to what ammo/gun is most effective. While the shooting problem is not complex, the scoring is such you just can't miss any pins really, despite getting one table out of six as a Mulligan.

[RJ]

Jumping on board.

I need want a 1911 to shoot in this competition: www.thepinshoot.com.

Here’s me last week...

...

Just wanted to correct the above web site URL, my bad.

The actual pin shoot web site is:

www.pinshoot.com

Sorry about that.

[RJ]

What were the sights like on the RIA? If they are GI style minimal sights, you may be disappointed.



The Pro ULTRA had a decent FO front and two dot white adjustable rear. The Rock Standard had fixed two dot rear and a plain blade front.

At this point shooting the RIA is for research purposes only. I am not seriously considering it. I’ve seen a video where Paul Harrell compares a RIA with his Colt, and the RIA has some feeding issues with HP. I would vastly prefer not to buy a gun that’s finicky shooting anything other than ball ammo since I plan to use HP at pin shoots. Vetting hollow point brands would be...expensive.

[DDTSGM]

Is that a model 6736?

*checks Ruger web site*

Faaaaaaaa...$1,229? Woah.

I hadn’t considered the Target because I assumed it was way outside my price range. Ambi/adjustable sights + Ruger + Stainless at a bit over $1k...that is a powerful combination. I may have to dig into the couch cushions to see if I can stretch my budget a bit.

Not sure what the issue is with price - three of the five pistols on your sheet come in at that or more when factoring $300.00 for ambi safety install.

[Exiledviking]

Does 180gr .40 move the pins well enough to contemplate just getting a G35?

-----------------

Let's go down the ammo rabbit hole.

Do people load up 250gr loads in .45 to have extra momentum? Gets into .45 Super territory pretty quickly with the reduction in case volume, but would be workable with a USP.

What projectiles are preferred? Hardcast? JHP? FMJ? Does a broad flat point or JHP work better on angled impacts than a round nose?

Seems like more deformable would transfer momentum more effectively. At .45 velocity, heavy-for-caliber and just hard enough to avoid leading would be the way to go. Or am I not thinking about that the right way?Mr. Ayoob said in his great book about shooting bowling pins, Hit the White Part, that bowling pins "is pure momentum impact."

I've been shooting the local bowling pin match for close to 10 years and I have to agree with Mr. Ayoob.
The heavier bullets in larger caliber do better at knocking the pins off the table.

My best, balanced (taking recoil into account), load for knocking the pins off the table is a .45 Colt 300 gr JSP bullet over some Titegroup at around 850 FPS.

After that the .45 ACP 230 gr JHP seems the best. One of the guys runs 255 gr SWC in his .45 ACP CZ 97B and that load hits with more authority than the 230 gr bullets.

So, while a .40 caliber like a G35 would certainly work, you'd want at least a warm 180 gr JHP load to knock the pins off the table. IME, and personally seeing people try different combinations and calibers, the overall winning combo is large bore with heavy bullets.

My wife does quite well with a .357 Mag revolver running 180 gr pugnose WFN bullet at roughly 1000 FPS.
However, because the match is set up so that everyone can have a good time, with calibers less than .40 we set the pins in the middle of the table. This allows people to shoot 9mm and at least be competitive. FWIW, we start the match with .22LR pistols and the pins are set at the very back of the table where it's easier to knock the pins off the table. With .40 and above cals the pins are set at the front of the table.

So, the Easy button is a .45 ACP with 230 JHP ammo.

[RJ]

I hadn’t considered the Target because I assumed it was way outside my price range.




Not sure what the issue is with price - three of the five pistols on your sheet come in at that or more when factoring $300.00 for ambi safety install.

See above.

[SecondsCount]

I can offer a contrast with .45 ACP, but in 9mm, not .40.

For one of the "Events" I entered, I used my P365X carry gun. It has a HS 407k. I had been told that 9mm does not have the power factor to blast the pins off the table, but hey, it was what I brought. I loaded the zippiest stuff I had, which was Speer Gold Dot 124+p, and stepped to the line.

This run is typical. Five rounds, five hits. The pins were mostly just knocked over; I had to continue shooting in order to attempt to get them off the table completely to score. This run was a "15.0" i.e. failed to knock pins off table.


https://youtu.be/ujd8JaHlhYQ


In terms of bullet type, I was advised that the flat profile of hollow points would bite into the pins, so a hit on a pin would tend to not just glance off. Compare the 9mm run above with this one I posted in the earlier part of this thread, copied again for convenience. Here I was shooting Mas's SA TGO II with JHP +p .45 (Winchester, I believe).


https://youtu.be/L-IfJnGzGlM

Notice when I hit ("when" lol) the pins, they pop off the table fairly smartly. This is what you have to do to score well. IIRC this is one of the runs where I did fairly well, i.e. about 7.5s, with two misses. The match winner was averaging 5.7s per table.

So not being a .40 shooter I'm not sure where it would fall, but one suspects a hot .40 out of a G35 would be more effective than a 9mm HP, but perhaps less effective than a .45? I dunno.

Most everyone was shooting a 5" 1911 in .45, but that may have more to do with demographics / tradition than analytics as to what ammo/gun is most effective. While the shooting problem is not complex, the scoring is such you just can't miss any pins really, despite getting one table out of six as a Mulligan.

9mm will do it but the sweet spot gets smaller. You were hitting the pins low in the first video which made them fall forward. Hitting them a touch higher would help get them to go backwards.

[mmc45414]

Is that a model 6736?

*checks Ruger web site*

Faaaaaaaa...$1,229? Woah.

I hadn’t considered the Target because I assumed it was way outside my price range. Ambi/adjustable sights + Ruger + Stainless at a bit over $1k...that is a powerful combination. I may have to dig into the couch cushions to see if I can stretch my budget a bit.

Ahem... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53192-The-%93I-need-a-45-but-do-I-need-a-1911-%94-thread&p=1365691&viewfull=1#post1365691)


Yes, and I have one of the SR1911 Target versions (https://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911Target/specSheets/6736.html) in 9mm, and they come with the ambi, available and in stock in 45 (https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/ruger-sr1911-target-45-acp-single-action-8-1-rounds-5-barrel-new?p=53253&avad=211021_b294a0eb1&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA).

And I think that adjustable rear sight might be pretty nice for what you want to do, I replaced mine with a Dawson with FO dots (it is the "Kimber" version, I know now, after the third try...) but damn, it looks like they may have discontinued it...

Still in stock...

[45dotACP]

This is a 20 yard 5 shot group with a beat to ass LE trade in Glock 21SF and it's dead lamped basic ass trijicon sights.

Not many factory 1911s will do this for me.

That said, most of my 1911s will [emoji41]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220624/871567e4b58f1da7a0bb65fa7ecfc5c6.jpg

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[OlongJohnson]

Yes, and I have one of the SR1911 Target versions (https://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911Target/specSheets/6736.html) in 9mm, and they come with the ambi, available and in stock in 45 (https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/ruger-sr1911-target-45-acp-single-action-8-1-rounds-5-barrel-new?p=53253&avad=211021_b294a0eb1&utm_source=AvantLink&utm_campaign=35987&utm_medium=df_NA).

Since RJ has time, I would suggest setting up a multitude of back-in-stock notices and waiting.

https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/736676067367

[RJ]

Tl;DR version: A wiggly plunger tube causes problems with getting the thumb safety permanently stuck in the "on" position if not correctly installed, and a lot of companies don't correctly install them. Just one more thing to fix usually.

Longer version: Lots of 1911 guys will only buy grips if they "support the plunger tube" so that the plunger tube is less likely to get knocked loose. It allows you to buy basically whatever kinda grips you want if the plunger tube is integral to the frame.

I found this video about staking the plunger tube, makes sense now. Thanks!


https://youtu.be/FMhPEeEvzFM

[OlongJohnson]

Since we're talking about bowling pin shoots, does anyone know a place in SE Texas that organizes them?

[DamonL]

RJ Another thing to consider is custom 1911 pistolsmiths really only like to build on Springfield Armory and Colt guns. I know it is not criteria for you. I think it is because the basic slide and frame quality is good. I know they hold their value better than other brands, too. Especially, Colt. People seem to like Colts in 1911’s.

[awp_101]

If you bought a Pachmayr Combat Special 30 years ago, it would still be relevant today.


These days, a Clark or Pachmayr 1911 with a satin-nickel frame and a blued slide is about the only reason I'd pick a 45 ACP for anything other than a very specialized deer hunt in the San Juan Islands.
Is it wrong of me to be considering having the frame of my Garrison satin nickeled (or *gasp* Cerakoted) or picking up a 9mm Ronin because reasons?

[Velo Dog]

Does 180gr .40 move the pins well enough to contemplate just getting a G35?

"The collective experience of pin shooters through the years is that you need a minimum of a 195 Power Factor to reliably push a pin off the table."

"The .40 S&W is marginal, when it comes to attaining a high Power Factor. On paper, you can just make a 195, but the experience of watching shooters with “hot” 40 loads over the years has been one of disappointment"

https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2018/7/11/pin-shooting-is-back-in-vogue/

[the Schwartz]

Honestly I'd probably go with the Ruger just by virtue of the plunger tube being a part of the frame and not staked on

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Perhaps a silly question, but I have to ask...

In stating that the Ruger's "plunger tube being part of the frame and not staked on", does that mean that it is integral with the frame?

If so, are there other brands that also have the plunger tube made integral with the frame?




*Damn it, I've got to stop asking questions and reading this thread because it is making me really, really, really, wanna get a 1911 even though I have no need for one. I just really like the platform and would love to have another one around just because...

[45dotACP]

Perhaps a silly question, but I have to ask...

In stating that the Ruger's "plunger tube being part of the frame and not staked on", does that mean that it is integral with the frame?

If so, are there other brands that also have the plunger tube made integral with the frame?




*Damn it, I've got to stop asking questions and reading this thread because it is making me really, really, really, wanna get a 1911 even though I have no need for one. I just really like the platform and would love to have another one around just because...I think Ruger is one of the only gun makers that does this, but yeah the plunger tube is not a removable part.

Caspian makes a few frames this way and I think they are the ones who do the frames for Ruger IIRC.

It has never made a huge difference for me, because staking the tube and red loctite are a thing...but it's nice having the peace of mind.

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[the Schwartz]

I think Ruger is one of the only gun makers that does this, but yeah the plunger tube is not a removable part.

Caspian makes a few frames this way and I think they are the ones who do the frames for Ruger IIRC.

It has never made a huge difference for me, because staking the tube and red loctite are a thing...but it's nice having the peace of mind.

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Thanks. I've been out of the 1911 game for a very, a very long time, so I am not up to par on the latest developments for the platform. When I did own a 1911, I did experience a little looseness of the plunger tube which was remedied by a quick trip to a trusted gunsmith. The issue never reappeared. Eventually sold the gun off to a friend who really wanted it since it had largely become a safe queen at that point.

In the not-too-distant future, I plan on picking one up "just because" and figuring out a role for it when that occurs. I've looked at the Dan Wesson and NightHawk offerings as I plan this to be a "one and done" sorta deal so getting it right the first time is kind of important. Hadn't even thought of the Ruger until reading this thread.

[Robinson]

Is it wrong of me to be considering having the frame of my Garrison satin nickeled (or *gasp* Cerakoted) or picking up a 9mm Ronin because reasons?

Nickel frame and blued slide would be cool and classic. Cerakote frame and blued slide... not so much. Is that what the Ronin has?

[CSW]

Satin hardchrome.
Last forever, great lubricity.

Nitride blue the slide.

[awp_101]

Nickel frame and blued slide would be cool and classic. Cerakote frame and blued slide... not so much. Is that what the Ronin has?

AFAIK the Ronin is a silver coating on an alloy frame.

[OlongJohnson]

Is it wrong of me to be considering having the frame of my Garrison satin nickeled (or *gasp* Cerakoted) or picking up a 9mm Ronin because reasons?

Cerakote is paint. It's a nice paint, but it's paint. I wouldn't do it to a gun that wasn't already just a rough beater. And then I probably wouldn't spend the money.

[Bucky]

Caspian makes a few frames this way and I think they are the ones who do the frames for Ruger IIRC.


Isn’t that the other way around?

[RJ]

Nickel frame and blued slide would be cool and classic. Cerakote frame and blued slide... not so much. Is that what the Ronin has?

90602

https://springfield-armory.com/1911-series-handguns/1911-ronin-handguns

...The steel slide features a beautiful hot salt bluing finish that contrasts nicely against the forged stainless steel frame of the 5″ model and the forged alloy frame of the 4.25″ and EMP model, the latter of which features a satin aluminum Cerakote® finish...

[awp_101]

Thanks @RJ, I forgot the 5" is stainless steel. I was thinking both frames were alloy.

[45dotACP]

Isn’t that the other way around?Probably. I will confess to not knowing the ins and outs of who makes the things for whom.

But my Caspian frame was great and the 1911 I made with it is as reliable and accurate a gun as I could ever wish to have.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[mmc45414]

I think Ruger is one of the only gun makers that does this, but yeah the plunger tube is not a removable part.
Caspian makes a few frames this way and I think they are the ones who do the frames for Ruger IIRC.

Isn’t that the other way around?

Probably. I will confess to not knowing the ins and outs of who makes the things for whom.
But my Caspian frame was great and the 1911 I made with it is as reliable and accurate a gun as I could ever wish to have.

Pretty sure if something is cast Ruger is gonna do the casting:
https://www.ruger.com/casting/
I think they even make golf clubs for Ping.
And they just cast the plunger tube as part of the frame.

[awp_101]

Pretty sure if something is cast Ruger is gonna do the casting

Unless it’s aspersions. I’m pretty damn good at doing that myself without Ruger’s help.

[awp_101]

Since we’ve done an admirable job of spending RJ’s money and shoving him down the 1911 rabbit hole I might need you guys to lure me down the compensated long slide path.

Has anyone ever heard of Pistolcraft (maybe Pistol Craft?) or a Hammer & Slide Master-Comp?

[mmc45414]

Since we’ve done an admirable job of spending RJ’s money and shoving him down the 1911 rabbit hole I might need you guys to lure me down the compensated long slide path.
I am also contemplating that as a next rabbit hole, but with M&P. Seems like there are options for threaded barrels now, and for the 1911 there are some options that replace the bushing. I have also wondered about getting a comp machined into a bull barrel, like getting a 6" bull barrel for my 5" 9mm Ruger (ETA: In 38 Super) and cutting a comp into the end of it...

[awp_101]

I have also wondered about getting a comp machined into a bull barrel, like getting a 6" bull barrel for my 5" 9mm Ruger (ETA: In 38 Super) and cutting a comp into the end of it...

You need to track down this guy. I bet he’d only charge you a half case of beer.

90673
90674
90675

[mmc45414]

You need to track down this guy. I bet he’d only charge you a half case of beer.
Hell, I could probably do that myself for only a few more beers than that!

[CSW]

You need to track down this guy. I bet he’d only charge you a half case of beer.

90673
90674
90675

Seems legit.

Who needs the expense of Magna-port.

[OlongJohnson]

You need to track down this guy. I bet he’d only charge you a half case of beer.

It appears payment would be due and consumed prior to commencing work.

[the Schwartz]

It appears payment would be due and consumed prior to commencing work.

I'd be more inclined to believe that payment might be due prior to commencing work, but consumed while doing the work. What's even funnier, is that it probably works.

From the looks of it, it looks like all you need is a fairly steady hand and a circular saw and you'd be in business.