Recoil Magazine

[Josh Runkle]

This was posted on RECOIL's facebook last night: ‎

"'...the MP71A is unavailable to civilians and for good measure. We all know that's technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of.' What the fuck, RECOIL? Seriously, what the FUCK? So you think we only get to have guns if they're sporting?"

Jerry Tsai, Editor of Recoil, and writer of the article writes this:

"Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let's be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.

Because we don't want anything to be taken out of context, let's complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:

"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags, and that’s it. Mike Cabrera of Heckler & Koch Law Enforcement Sales and veteran law enforcement officer with SWAT unit experience points out that this is a gun that you do not want in the wrong, slimy hands. It comes with semi-automatic and full-auto firing modes only. Its overall size places it between a handgun and submachine gun. Its assault rifle capabilities and small size make this a serious weapon that should not be taken lightly."

Let' also review why this gun should not be taken lightly. In the article it was stated that the MP7A1 is a slightly larger than handgun sized machine-gun that can be accurately fired and penetrate Soviet style body armor at more than 300 yards. In the wrong hands, that's a bad day for the good guys.

As readers of RECOIL, we all agree that we love bad-ass hardware, there's no question about that. I believe that in a perfect world, all of us should have access to every kind of gadget that we desire. Believe me, being a civvie myself, I'd love to be able to get my hands on an MP7A1 of my own regardless of its stated purpose, but unfortunately the reality is that it isn't available to us. As a fellow enthusiast, I know how frustrating it is to want something only to be denied it.

Its manufacturer has not made the gun available to the general public and when we asked if it would ever come to the commercial market, they replied that it is strictly a military and law enforcement weapon, adding that there are no sporting applications for it. Is it wrong that HK decided against selling a full-auto pocket sized machine gun that can penetrate armor from hundreds of yards away? It's their decision to make and their decision they have to live with not mine nor anybody else's.

I accepted their answer for what it was out of respect for those serving in uniform. I believe that we as gun enthusiasts should respect our brothers in law enforcement, agency work and the military and also keep them out of harms way. Like HK, I wouldn't want to see one of these slip into the wrong hands either. Whether or not you agree with this is fine. I am compelled to explain a point that I was trying to make that may have not been clear.

Thanks for reading,
- JT, Editor, RECOIL"

The posts can be found here:
http://www.facebook.com/Recoil.gun.lifestyle/posts/360458947366646

There's a lot more info there, some of it even humorous, like asking the author if he'd be comfortable seeing the MP7 in the hands of the NYPD during a shootout ;)

Needless to say, I LOVED recoil magazine so far (with the exception of an article or two that were stuck in the '80's), but, until JT is gone for good, I will no longer have anything to do with this magazine.

[orionz06]

http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442

Super glad I bought a SilencerCo suppressor.

[Josh Runkle]

http://www.silencerco.com/blog/?p=442

Super glad I bought a SilencerCo suppressor.

Awesome, Tom!

[JV_]

Sounds like that they learned about the 2nd Amendment from Jim Zumbo.

[LHS]

Sounds like that they learned about the 2nd Amendment from Jim Zumbo.

Or Chuck Schumer...

[Savage Hands]

http://benisawesome.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dirty-funny-photos-21.jpg

[Ed L]

The editor of the magazine wrote:
"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of. It is made to put down scumbags,

Like citizens don't have the right or the need to own weapons capable of 'putting down scumbags.' If the magazine is going with that definition, most of the weapons that they profile would fall into the category of 'no sporting purpose; designed to put down scumbags."

I've never heard of any of the people who write for Recoil magazine. I'd wondered what their background was. As mentioned by other people in the past, the thing looks like Maxim for guns.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This was posted on RECOIL's facebook last night: ‎

"'...the MP71A is unavailable to civilians and for good measure. We all know that's technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of.' What the fuck, RECOIL? Seriously, what the FUCK? So you think we only get to have guns if they're sporting?"

Jerry Tsai, Editor of Recoil, and writer of the article writes this:

"Hey guys, this is Jerry Tsai, Editor of RECOIL. I think I need to jump in here and clarify what I wrote in the MP7A1 article. It looks like I may not have stated my point clearly enough in that line that is quoted up above. Let's be clear, neither RECOIL nor I are taking the stance on what should or should not be made available on the commercial market although I can see how what was written can be confused as such.

Because we don't want anything to be taken out of context, let's complete that quote and read the entire paragraph:

"Like we mentioned before, the MP7A1 is unavailable to civilians and for good reason. We all know that’s technology no civvies should ever get to lay their hands on. This is a purpose-built weapon with no sporting applications to speak of...

I sopped reading after this comment.

If someone can't understand basic RKBA jurisprudence they don't rate my attention and are dismissed from my life.

[Kyle Reese]

Sounds like he's channeling Zumbo.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[Joe in PNG]

I see they have bought into the "uber super instant death gun too badass for civillians to own!" marketing. Doc GKR has a nice writeup on the lack of effectiveness that these micro PDW calibers tend to have on this very site.

[CCT125US]

Vickers showed this on TacTv and IIRC he stated that the target would need multiple rounds to the head in order to stop. Back to spray and pray I guess.

[TGS]

I see they have bought into the "uber super instant death gun too badass for civillians to own!" marketing.

Which is pretty lame since a civilian MP7 would have a 16" barrel, because I can't imagine HK going so out of the way for customers to produce a COTS SBR for the whole 8 people that would buy one. And with a 16" barrel, a 5.56 would eclipse the MP7's capabilities......yet we don't have the problem they're speaking of, and people can already get 5.56 rifles.

Lets not forget that even if HK marketed the MP7 on the civilian market, the ammo capable of penetrating CRISAT at 300m wouldn't be legal to buy/own anyways. And even if it was, if someone was willing to buy a 16" MP7 and then legally SBR it to create this pocket sized weapon of mass destruction that HK is so afraid of falling into criminal hands, I highly doubt they would be looking to use it for nefarious purposes. If a criminal wanted a small caliber, high-velocity PDW type weapon to kill cops, they'd ask the BATFE for some.....not buy one legally.

[Josh Runkle]

Which is pretty lame since a civilian MP7 would have a 16" barrel, because I can't imagine HK going so out of the way for customers to produce a COTS SBR for the whole 8 people that would buy one. And with a 16" barrel, a 5.56 would eclipse the MP7's capabilities......yet we don't have the problem they're speaking of, and people can already get 5.56 rifles.

Lets not forget that even if HK marketed the MP7 on the civilian market, the ammo capable of penetrating CRISAT at 300m wouldn't be legal to buy/own anyways. And even if it was, if someone was willing to buy a 16" MP7 and then legally SBR it to create this pocket sized weapon of mass destruction that HK is so afraid of falling into criminal hands, I highly doubt they would be looking to use it for nefarious purposes. If a criminal wanted a small caliber, high-velocity PDW type weapon to kill cops, they'd ask the BATFE for some.....not buy one legally.

I bet they could easily sell 500 SBRs to the civilian market. (I'd buy 2!) Additionally, I'm sure the price wold be low, and agencies that prohibit full-auto to individual officers would see a lot of officers buying and using this as a "carbine".

[LHS]

The original article was a foot in mouth. The editor's reply on the FB thread was the equivalent of shooting himself in the foot... while said foot was wedged firmly in his mouth.

[John Ralston]

The original article was a foot in mouth. The editor's reply on the FB thread was the equivalent of shooting himself in the foot... while said foot was wedged firmly in his mouth.


Yup...Down 5K Likes in one weekend...

[TheRoland]

The original article was a foot in mouth. The editor's reply on the FB thread was the equivalent of shooting himself in the foot... while said foot was wedged firmly in his mouth.

The first rule of holes is:

"If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

Fortunes are lost due to ignorance of this one rule...

[EVP]

It's a shame as I think the magazine had potential. It seems more interested in photo shoots with cool effects.

[Joe in PNG]

It's a shame as I think the magazine had potential. It seems more interested in photo shoots with cool effects.

You can get that from Oleg Volk, and with him, 'cool effects' = 'hawt chix'..

[NextGhost]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

[Jay Cunningham]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

You're not the only one.

[Josh Runkle]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

+1

[TGS]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...


You're not the only one.

You guys base your firearms purchase decisions based off the politics of the company and whether they're cool or not?

There I was thinking performance of said tool was the important thing.....

[TCinVA]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

A civi-legal MP7 style weapon would probably be fairly expensive to produce and probably wouldn't be terribly well received in the market due to it's poodle-shooter cartridge. Sure, some military units have used the weapons effectively, but their technique is to bust into a room and fire a full-auto burst into the face of bad people at close range. Self-defense duty stateside doesn't often resemble the scenarios where the MP7 is doing well. It's a niche weapon with expensive ammo.

I don't know how well FN has done with their Stargate gun in terms of profit, but I don't recall having seen all that many out and about so it couldn't have been a money-maker on the same par as, say, the Taurus Judge. H&K's decision not to try and bring an MP7-ish weapon to the commercial market in the U.S. may be entirely a business decision. Prior to Bush 1 and the BATFE crawling into their colon and making camp and being specifically targeted by a bunch of inane legislation, H&K sold stuff like the SP-89 here. I don't think they're morally opposed to selling weapons to the U.S. market. Their ineptitude in terms of marketing knows no bounds, however...

Some gun journo who insists that it's a good thing because the weapon is too dangerous to have in the hands of mere mortals is just stupidity and isn't quite the same thing, IMO.

[Jay Cunningham]

You guys base your firearms purchase decisions based off the politics of the company and whether they're cool or not?

There I was thinking performance of said tool was the important thing.....

No. How did you glean that from the exchange?

[TGS]

No. How did you glean that from the exchange?

The comment about "HK being in" even though they're not supportive of the RKBA, as if they should somehow instead "be out." I would think whether a company is "in" or "out" would mean support for said company....as consumers, support means purchasing decisions.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Saying that a company is "in" would mean people support them and buy their stuff. So you guys thinking they shouldn't be "in" given their political antics means what, if it doesn't reflect purchasing decisions?

[jetfire]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

Rightly or wrongly, people frequently expect HK to be contemptuous of the civilian market, regardless of any current efforts they've made to improve their customer facing image. Those same consumers probably don't expect a magazine full of AR gun porn to exhibit a similar attitude.

[Joe in PNG]

Which is pretty lame since a civilian MP7 would have a 16" barrel, because I can't imagine HK going so out of the way for customers to produce a COTS SBR for the whole 8 people that would buy one. And with a 16" barrel, a 5.56 would eclipse the MP7's capabilities......yet we don't have the problem they're speaking of, and people can already get 5.56 rifles.

Lets not forget that even if HK marketed the MP7 on the civilian market, the ammo capable of penetrating CRISAT at 300m wouldn't be legal to buy/own anyways. And even if it was, if someone was willing to buy a 16" MP7 and then legally SBR it to create this pocket sized weapon of mass destruction that HK is so afraid of falling into criminal hands, I highly doubt they would be looking to use it for nefarious purposes. If a criminal wanted a small caliber, high-velocity PDW type weapon to kill cops, they'd ask the BATFE for some.....not buy one legally.

I was referring to the marketing of the Mp 7 and it's 4.6mm cartridge- which is marketed to Law Enforcement and militaries around the word. That H&K over-hypes the capabilities of this cartridge can be seen by this gem on the official H&K site (http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/products/submachine-guns/mp7a1/mp7a1/overview.html):

Comparing the calibres, the penetration and terminal effects of the 4.6 mm x 30 cartridge are several times those of the standardised 9 mm x 19 cartridge. By way of illustration: The new high-performance calibre penetrates the NATO CRISAT TARGET (1.6 mm titanium and 20 layers of kevlar) even at 200 m. One fundamental requirement: At the same time, the risk of overpenetration is reduced to a minimum.

This is what I was referring to in that they bought the marketing. And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm kind of a closeted H&K fanboi, so I'm not just spreading the typical internet H&K hate.

[orionz06]

That attitude from a company that could still likely exist without US civilian sales and the same attitude from a company trying to sell me a magazine in a grocery store isn't the same. Even just from a financial point of view why mention anything you don't have to? Believe what you will, all the way to the bank, just keep your foot out of your mouth.

[TGS]

I was referring to the marketing of the Mp 7 and it's 4.6mm cartridge- which is marketed to Law Enforcement and militaries around the word. That H&K over-hypes the capabilities of this cartridge can be seen by this gem on the official H&K site (http://www.heckler-koch.com/en/military/products/submachine-guns/mp7a1/mp7a1/overview.html):


This is what I was referring to in that they bought the marketing. And in the interest of full disclosure, I'm kind of a closeted H&K fanboi, so I'm not just spreading the typical internet H&K hate.

I was agreeing with you. I was just adding by pointing out how even if the marketing were 100% correct, that it still wouldn't be applicable to the civi market since it either wouldn't be pocket sized as in its military form, and given that there's already more lethal weapons, and yet we still don't have a "problem" with those more powerful weapons falling into the hands of criminals. Well, except for problems manufactured by the government.

[Joe in PNG]

I was agreeing with you. I was just adding by pointing out how even if the marketing were 100% correct, that it still wouldn't be applicable to the civi market since it either wouldn't be pocket sized as in its military form, and given that there's already more lethal weapons, and yet we still don't have a "problem" with those more powerful weapons falling into the hands of criminals. Well, except for problems manufactured by the government.

A US legal MP 7 would be pretty much an expensive fun toy that shot expensive ammo... a market niche that H&K will pretty much leave to the likes of Kel-Tec. So it won't happen, and I won't really miss it.

[Suvorov]

Well, as long as they continue to believe in the "2nd Amendment" and support the rights of target shooters and sportsmen then its OK. :rolleyes:

Maybe they can get Lon Horuichi to do an article about barrier blind ammunition and shooting around cover :confused:

[F-Trooper05]

Wow, this would be like Larry Flint supporting restrictions on strip clubs. WTF was this guy thinking???

[Jason F]

They posted a retraction this morning, or, rather an apology, on their Facebook page.

Still, the whole thing does seem rather strange that it would even happen. Tsai is claiming he just reiterated information from the manufacturer, but even if that's true, he should have realized as he wrote the story that just regurgitating that info - without the context of "this is what the manufacturer's stance on this weapon is" - would lead to an outcry from the 2A / RKBA community.

I've enjoyed RECOIL for the gun porn that it is for the first 3 issues. Haven't seen issue #4 yet, so I haven't seen the offending article.

I'll say this: the publisher puts out a nice looking rag. Photos are good, it's printed on really great paper to have a good tactile experience, and the iPad version is well produced as well.

But this little dust up definitely has me hesitant to buy issue #4.

[LittleLebowski]

Wow, this would be like Larry Flint supporting restrictions on strip clubs. WTF was this guy thinking???

Very well said.

I still want to see the 4.6mm that can penetrate Sov body armor at 300 meters.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Regarding the apology, I posted this:

As I write this on my sporting use, government approved computer (1st amendment sporting use restrictions, right?) I can’t hear you apologize for giving Sarah Brady & her ilk ammunition over the sound of how awesome the no-sporting use H&K you wrote about.

I’m just one of the “civies” you (and H&K for that matter) market to, and found the tone of your writing demeaning.

The article’s tone was dismissive of the core purpose of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms – the people having parity of arms with the government so that tyranny becomes impossible.
It’s more important to have freedom than for anyone working for the government to have a good day.

I’m disgusted you feel otherwise.

[TGS]

I still want to see the 4.6mm that can penetrate Sov body armor at 300 meters.

The DM11 cartridge is apparently capable of such according to the German procurement testing. Skip to 1:41 of this Youtube video (which is just a powerpoint with short slide times, so be ready to click pause):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w4V-xmRp9kU

I don't find it too hard to believe. The 5.7 is supposed to penetrate CRISAT at what, 150-200m? The 4.6 is even smaller diameter...the claim of CRISAT at 300 makes sense to me.

I'm wondering why the SEAL teams use the MP7 so much if it's so terrible compared to a 10" M4. I don't understand why'd they be in use if they're such a terrible weapons platform that you have to hose a dude with half a mag. I'm legit curious.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm past caring what SEALs use but I wonder exactly how much damage this round would do at 300 meters after passing through said armor?

[JM Campbell]

From what I understand the MP7 suppressed is extremely quiet. (2nd hand info from No Easy Day)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[TGS]

I'm past caring what SEALs use but I wonder exactly how much damage this round would do at 300 meters after passing through said armor?

Did my previous comment about the DM11 ammo help with regards to the 300m AP capability?

I could care less that you don't care about what the SEALs use. Everyone says it sucks, but they use it. I can't figure out why, other than it must not suck that bad. There's gotta be a reason they use it, and the idea that it completely sucks probably isn't the reason. I wasn't trying to justify the PDW to you, I was asking a legitimate question. I have no doubts that it sucks compared to a 5.56 when it gets through armor, and never said otherwise. Feel free to not respond if you don't have anything useful to add. I'm not trying to argue with you about the efficacy of PDW's, you asked about the AP capability at 300m and I responded with a source.

[LittleLebowski]

TGS, we value civility here. PM me if there's a problem between you and I or feel free to talk to the other moderators.

Back on topic.

[Tamara]

The Big Irony:

Isn't the MP7 made in Germany? So a semiauto version would have to be 922(r) compliant?

How well does anybody think a pinned-stock, no foregrip, "MPS7" with a 16-inch unthreaded barrel would sell, especially at the ~$2,500 MSRP it would have to sport?

You'd get five guys on HKPro who'd buy the things, spend a ton having "ten US-made parts" fabricated, put 'em on Form 4s,and then post pictures back and forth at each other.

That is not a successful business model. *coughSL8cough*

That's all Jerry had to say (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2012/09/recoil-ing-in-shrieking-terror.html), and that's all he would have said if he was the slightest bit gun-savvy, rather than being some clown living the 5.11 lifestyle on the west coast. Fool.

[orionz06]

Multicam lifestyle, 5.11 is so Gun&Ammo.

[TGS]

The Big Irony:

Isn't the MP7 made in Germany? So a semiauto version would have to be 922(r) compliant?

How well does anybody think a pinned-stock, no foregrip, "MPS7" with a 16-inch unthreaded barrel would sell, especially at the ~$2,500 MSRP it would have to sport?

You'd get five guys on HKPro who'd buy the things, spend a ton having "ten US-made parts" fabricated, put 'em on Form 4s,and then post pictures back and forth at each other.


There's this exact same conversation going on at HKPRO right now. I'm on the side of the fence that there would be very little sales, and if HK had some change of heart and wanted to satisfy the thirst of the community, the community would respond in poor and HK would be teed off and probably cut all civilian sales whatsoever. None of the SMG styled pistols, nor the rifle compliant SMG's (P90 with a 16" bbl) are hot sellers, to my knowledge. However, I think I placed the amount of people who'd go through the work to buy them and SBR them at 8 :p At the same time, I bet those few would probably pay extraordinary amounts of money for them, keeping the competition high. Just look at the PSG1. If any reasonable person wanted a precision semi-auto .308, there's better choices for 1/3 the price. Its value is 100% as a collectors item, just like a Dragunov (or even Tigr).

[Tamara]

At the same time, I bet those few would probably pay extraordinary amounts of money for them, keeping the competition high. Just look at the PSG1. If any reasonable person wanted a precision semi-auto .308, there's better choices for 1/3 the price. Its value is 100% as a collectors item, just like a Dragunov (or even Tigr).

Yes, but a lot of those prices are skewed even higher than they would be because of their non-importability. Don't forget that before 1989, the HK9x series was slightly cheaper than the average AR15.

Of course, a generation of kids used to paying post-'89 prices for imported guns kinda skews that upward a bit, but I have a hard time seeing HK making money on a $2500 heavily-neutered imported MP7 that'll take a tax stamp and another thousand+ dollars in parts and labor before it even looks like the gun in Call of Duty. (Even if they're imported, the FNH bullpups have a huge cosmetic advantage in having a fixed stock, there...)

[ToddG]

So, RECOIL magazine is now "out", but HK is still "in" because it would be difficult for them to do what FNH did with the PS90? The gun gestalt is confusing me again...

HK isn't suggesting that it's good for the MP7 (or any of their other small arms) to be illegal for civilian sale. It utterly amazes me that people jump from the fact that HK doesn't make a civi-legal version to the unfounded conclusion that they don't want civis to own one. They don't make a civi-legal version because it would have to be substantially different, require a significant amount of new engineering, parts production, and testing, and very likely wouldn't sell enough to justify it.


Still, the whole thing does seem rather strange that it would even happen. Tsai is claiming he just reiterated information from the manufacturer, but even if that's true, he should have realized as he wrote the story that just regurgitating that info - without the context of "this is what the manufacturer's stance on this weapon is" - would lead to an outcry from the 2A / RKBA community.

I call BS. Someone show me an official statement from HK or an employee thereof advocating against civilian ownership of 4.6mm weapons. It's not going to happen. First the magazine made a stupid statement. Then they tried to Jedi Mind Trick everyone with "when I said it's good they're not available to civilians I didn't mean we support keeping them out of the hands of civilians." Now they're blaming the manufacturer. They've screwed up and screwed over twice already. RECOIL is the last source I'm going to trust for what HK says about private gun ownership and RKBA in the United States.

[TGS]

That's an excellent point, Todd. I'll admit that I didn't read it correctly. When you pointed out that you'd like to see a statement made by an HK official regarding their stance on selling this to civilians/RKBA, I went, "Aha! It's right in the damage-control "clarification" letter!" Alas, the only thing Mr. Cabrera said was that it's a gun you don't want in the wrong hands. That comes up pretty short of what the article was claiming with regards to HK's stance on selling it to civilians.

[ToddG]

Exactly. I'm ok with HK (and all gun companies) taking the stance that they don't want any of their products in the wrong hands. Unless they start including you and me (well, me at least) as "the wrong hands," I'd say they're right.

Really, what we expect HK to say? "We really hope more gangsters, narco-terrorists, and environmental extremists start carrying our guns."

[Jameson]

I am mystified as to how the editor of a magazine that has articles/gear reviews regarding concealed carry, and runs stylized ads of dudes fully jocked up in their hut-hut gear, would go anywhere near the term 'sporting applications'.

The same issue had a review of the M&P9 Shield. For what sporting purpose is that gun used?

I'm just really dumbfounded by the whole thing.

[Ed L]

I call BS. Someone show me an official statement from HK or an employee thereof advocating against civilian ownership of 4.6mm weapons. It's not going to happen. First the magazine made a stupid statement. Then they tried to Jedi Mind Trick everyone with "when I said it's good they're not available to civilians I didn't mean we support keeping them out of the hands of civilians." Now they're blaming the manufacturer. They've screwed up and screwed over twice already. RECOIL is the last source I'm going to trust for what HK says about private gun ownership and RKBA in the United States.

A great summary of the editor stepping on his dick and then trying to make clarifications that are even worse. It's amazing how much HK hate is involved. On another messageboard someone posted that HK is the company who is not making the HK417 available for civilian sales because they hate civilians. I had to point out that the civilian version of the HK417 is indeed available.

[Suvorov]

I am mystified as to how the editor of a magazine that has articles/gear reviews regarding concealed carry, and runs stylized ads of dudes fully jocked up in their hut-hut gear, would go anywhere near the term 'sporting applications'.

The same issue had a review of the M&P9 Shield. For what sporting purpose is that gun used?

I'm just really dumbfounded by the whole thing.

I agree completely. It would be one thing if the editor of Field and Steam uttered such a thing, and I can even see why an arrogant Fudd like Zumbo said what he said, but for the editor of a magazine that caters to the tacticool crowd to make such a statement just defies any logic.

It kind of makes you wonder what the qualifications or the job were?

[ToddG]

I shot an email to someone at HK about this. Hopefully, they'll spend twenty minutes writing a press release to make the company's position on RKBA clear.

The editor at RECOIL really blew a fantastic opportunity here. Imagine what this discussion would be like if his response to the outrage had been more along the lines of:

"Dear readers of RECOIL Magazine, thank you for your comments about my recent Heckler & Koch MP7A1 article. It has been an eye opening experience for me. While I've been a firearms owner and enthusiast all my life, your emails and blog posts have forced me to examine just how much the mainstream media has influenced my thought process. Like you, I believe that all law abiding Americans should be able to own firearms for defense of themselves, their loved ones, and their homes. These are obviously not 'sporting purposes' and it was candidly stupid of me to suggest the MP7A1 was any different. While it obviously has features which make it illegal for purchase by private citizens under current U.S. law, neither RECOIL Magazine nor I should have taken the inappropriate stance suggesting that ordinary law-abiding citizens could not be trusted with, or should not be able to own, firearms such as the MP7A1 for perfectly legitimate 'non-sporting' purposes. Going forward, RECOIL Magazine will take a much stronger position on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. I apologize for my error and thank all of the readers of RECOIL Magazine for setting me upon the proper path."

Then I'd make a donation to the NRA, give the NRA some free advertising in my magazine for a year, and hope people forget about the whole thing by the next issue.

[Jason F]

......
The editor at RECOIL really blew a fantastic opportunity here. Imagine what this discussion would be like if his response to the outrage had been more along the lines of:
.....
Then I'd make a donation to the NRA, give the NRA some free advertising in my magazine for a year, and hope people forget about the whole thing by the next issue.

Todd, you should freelance as a PR agent. That's EXACTLY what they should have done, and the hubbub would have been quickly softened (not silenced of course, but softened way down).

RECOIL - SHOT show 2011 darling, SHOT show 2012 pariah?

[LittleLebowski]

orionz06 posted this on another forum and I'm reposting here...

http://ttag.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Henry-lever-gun-RECOIL-parody-courtesy-ironmikenorton.com_.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

In regards to the 1968 GCA, what standard are foreign companies like HK required to meet in order to import firearms into the United States? :confused:

[joshs]

In regards to the 1968 GCA, what standard are foreign companies like HK required to meet in order to import firearms into the United States? :confused:

The relevant federal law is 18 USC § 925(d)(3). The AG must approve the importation of any firearm that "is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." BATFE has developed different "sporting purpose" tests for handguns, rifles, and, to a limited extent, shotguns.

All these tests do is create a market distortion that benefits US made firearms manufacturers, at the price of higher costs for US gun buyers.

[Dagga Boy]

Well now I am TOTALLY confused. Everybody is pissed that Recoil and HK are stating that the guns need to have a "sporting purpose", and that is a slap in the face of every American and the 2nd Amendment and we can have anything we want, but the 1968 GCA says that for a company like HK to import a firearm into the United States for commercial sales to the public the gun must have a "sporting purpose"..............I am totally confused again:confused:. So HK HAS to have a "Sporting Purpose" to bring guns in (and they have been ass raped in the past when on two occasions we changed what "sporting" meant on them), but they are evil, bad and hate American civilians because they don't make guns for the American public that don't fit into the "Sporting" requirement and the U.S. Government won't let them bring in a gun for the American public like that. I also find it REALLY weird that this has never been overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court as un-Constitutional and a violation of the 2nd Amendment. I guess this PROVES that HK is anti 2nd Amendment for even discussing Sporting use. I am glad that all of our U.S. gun companies who can sell without the sporting "test" have filed a lawsuit on behalf of HK to let the foreign companies compete for U.S. commercial sales on a level playing field with them without a sporting test.........Because they are pro 2nd Amendment, NOT like HK who is ANTI 2nd Amendment, because they will only import "sporting guns" into the United States.........HK sucks and they HATE you and HATE the 2nd Amendment because they only import the guns they are allowed to........what a bunch of jerks. Did I get this right:confused:.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Well now I am TOTALLY confused. Everybody is pissed that Recoil and HK are stating that the guns need to have a "sporting purpose", and that is a slap in the face of every American and the 2nd Amendment and we can have anything we want, but the 1968 GCA says that for a company like HK to import a firearm into the United States for commercial sales to the public the gun must have a "sporting purpose"..............I am totally confused again:confused:. So HK HAS to have a "Sporting Purpose" to bring guns in (and they have been ass raped in the past when on two occasions we changed what "sporting" meant on them), but they are evil, bad and hate American civilians because they don't make guns for the American public that don't fit into the "Sporting" requirement and the U.S. Government won't let them bring in a gun for the American public like that. I also find it REALLY weird that this has never been overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court as un-Constitutional and a violation of the 2nd Amendment. I guess this PROVES that HK is anti 2nd Amendment for even discussing Sporting use. I am glad that all of our U.S. gun companies who can sell without the sporting "test" have filed a lawsuit on behalf of HK to let the foreign companies compete for U.S. commercial sales on a level playing field with them without a sporting test.........Because they are pro 2nd Amendment, NOT like HK who is ANTI 2nd Amendment, because they will only import "sporting guns" into the United States.........HK sucks and the HATE you and HATE the 2nd Amendment because they only import the guns they are allowed to........what a bunch of jerks. Did I get this right:confused:.

Yes.

I now pronounce you a Commissioner of the Superior Court and Lawyer.

Go forth and spread logic as you have done so above...and handle my 3 PM Trial Management thing on Friday for me, mmmm'k?

[Dagga Boy]

Yes.

I now pronounce you a Commissioner of the Superior Court and Lawyer.

Go forth and spread logic as you have done so above...and handle my 3 PM Trial Management thing on Friday for me, mmmm'k?


If you are still doing Criminal Defense work, you know that I am going to plead all your guys guilty and to encourage the Judge to throw the book at them.........I'll be there at 3 PM.....:cool:

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If you are still doing Criminal Defense work, you know that I am going to plead all your guys guilty and to encourage the Judge to throw the book at them.........I'll be there at 3 PM.....:cool:

I just got a guy facing, I duno...I stopped counting at 200 years book time... of conspiracy, forgery, larceny and R.I.C.O. charges a deal for 10 years, incarceration suspended after 3 years & 11 months, 5 years probation after release.

All of that concurrent to his incarceration in another state for drug distribution.

He'll be out in...call it 2 years - Maybe 2.5 years from last Friday.

Shrug. Plead 'em. 200+ down to serving under 1% of that. That's the going rate for pleas today. Disgusting when you think about it from any prospective but the defense side.

I know I need the experience in the event I get a call from someone on a self defense case...but as flexible as my ethics are and as limited as my morality actually is, it can be disturbing.

It can be really very frightening to see how little the State cares to punish criminals, while it wants to have a monopoly on the use of force.

Forget the obligations of the police to protect you, because that's BS.

Even if they do get the guy...punishment is so limp, you should be disgusted.

These days, I'm not sure if I am doing a "good" job or a "bad" job.

[TCinVA]

Well now I am TOTALLY confused. Everybody is pissed that Recoil and HK are stating that the guns need to have a "sporting purpose", and that is a slap in the face of every American and the 2nd Amendment and we can have anything we want, but the 1968 GCA says that for a company like HK to import a firearm into the United States for commercial sales to the public the gun must have a "sporting purpose"..............I am totally confused again:confused:. So HK HAS to have a "Sporting Purpose" to bring guns in (and they have been ass raped in the past when on two occasions we changed what "sporting" meant on them), but they are evil, bad and hate American civilians because they don't make guns for the American public that don't fit into the "Sporting" requirement and the U.S. Government won't let them bring in a gun for the American public like that. I also find it REALLY weird that this has never been overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court as un-Constitutional and a violation of the 2nd Amendment. I guess this PROVES that HK is anti 2nd Amendment for even discussing Sporting use. I am glad that all of our U.S. gun companies who can sell without the sporting "test" have filed a lawsuit on behalf of HK to let the foreign companies compete for U.S. commercial sales on a level playing field with them without a sporting test.........Because they are pro 2nd Amendment, NOT like HK who is ANTI 2nd Amendment, because they will only import "sporting guns" into the United States.........HK sucks and they HATE you and HATE the 2nd Amendment because they only import the guns they are allowed to........what a bunch of jerks. Did I get this right:confused:.

You're trying to make mob-based stupidity make sense. Keep that up and you'll stroke out. Just accept the fact that a manufacturer who currently produces a bunch of handguns and 5 rifle models for the U.S. market hates 'Merica and won't make guns for civilians. Even though they make assault rifles for the civilian market. Because you suck and we hate you, blah blah blah....

A new development: Apparently some folks on ARFCOM have done some sleuthing and have found out that the owner of the publisher that puts out "Recoil" is, in fact, a democratic party contributing gun grabber type.

Recoil Magazine: Time of death, September 2012. Cause of death: Shot themselves in foot, couldn't stop the bleeding.

[LHS]

FN, Beretta, Sig, Steyr, Arsenal, and others have found ways around the import restrictions, mostly by creating domestic manufacturing facilities. HK could do the same.

The issue I have with Recoil's article wasn't the existence of the 68 GCA, but rather their emphatic and enthusiastic approval of the concept of a 'sporting purposes' requirement for civilian ownership. If they had just stated that HK couldn't bring in the weapon for civvies due to the law, nobody would be upset.


Well now I am TOTALLY confused. Everybody is pissed that Recoil and HK are stating that the guns need to have a "sporting purpose", and that is a slap in the face of every American and the 2nd Amendment and we can have anything we want, but the 1968 GCA says that for a company like HK to import a firearm into the United States for commercial sales to the public the gun must have a "sporting purpose"..............I am totally confused again:confused:. So HK HAS to have a "Sporting Purpose" to bring guns in (and they have been ass raped in the past when on two occasions we changed what "sporting" meant on them), but they are evil, bad and hate American civilians because they don't make guns for the American public that don't fit into the "Sporting" requirement and the U.S. Government won't let them bring in a gun for the American public like that. I also find it REALLY weird that this has never been overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court as un-Constitutional and a violation of the 2nd Amendment. I guess this PROVES that HK is anti 2nd Amendment for even discussing Sporting use. I am glad that all of our U.S. gun companies who can sell without the sporting "test" have filed a lawsuit on behalf of HK to let the foreign companies compete for U.S. commercial sales on a level playing field with them without a sporting test.........Because they are pro 2nd Amendment, NOT like HK who is ANTI 2nd Amendment, because they will only import "sporting guns" into the United States.........HK sucks and they HATE you and HATE the 2nd Amendment because they only import the guns they are allowed to........what a bunch of jerks. Did I get this right:confused:.

[JDM]

You're trying to make mob-based stupidity make sense. Keep that up and you'll stroke out. Just accept the fact that a manufacturer who currently produces a bunch of handguns and 5 rifle models for the U.S. market hates 'Merica and won't make guns for civilians. Even though they make assault rifles for the civilian market. Because you suck and we hate you, blah blah blah....

A new development: Apparently some folks on ARFCOM have done some sleuthing and have found out that the owner of the publisher that puts out "Recoil" is, in fact, a democratic party contributing gun grabber type.

Recoil Magazine: Time of death, September 2012. Cause of death: Shot themselves in foot, couldn't stop the bleeding.

Got a link, TC?

[Savage Hands]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/396400_195374977261080_1563109515_n.jpg

[TCinVA]

I'm still googling, but it looks like Recoil is part of a family of magazines put out by Source Interlink...which is owned by this guy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Burkle) Who helped elect Clinton. You know...Assault Weapons Ban Clinton? He apparently also helped start up Al Gore's TV network, too.

...and according to the Wiki article he owns the Primedia family...which is a huge chunk of the gun mag publishing.

I love a good boycott as much as the next guy, but if people are going to be consistent on this and kill Recoil because it's owned by some rich liberal twit, a whole lot of other publications are going to have to go down too.

[TCinVA]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/396400_195374977261080_1563109515_n.jpg

The name Justin Legg sounds familiar, like I should know him from somewhere.

Nevertheless, that's a pretty ***CENSORED*** stupid comment.

[Savage Hands]

The name Justin Legg sounds familiar, like I should know him from somewhere.

Nevertheless, that's a pretty ***CENSORED*** stupid comment.


Now they removed it LOL, I believe that is Strike 3.

[TCinVA]

Well, they wouldn't be the first people on the internet to post something stupid and then try to delete it and pretend it was never said.

It's as if they don't realize screen captures happen.

[Dagga Boy]

"FN, Beretta, Sig, Steyr, Arsenal, and others have found ways around the import restrictions, mostly by creating domestic manufacturing facilities. HK could do the same."

Ummmmhhh........they do have one. They make the MR556/762, HK416/417 there as well as the HK45/45C.

How about some history. HK had a big presence here at one point. It went away when their business plan got cancelled in 89 and again in 92(?) on the second go round. Steyr had guns being made here again after getting boned by the same "new" sporting definitions as HK. Then, there US maker decided that following rules wasn't really required and they got shut down. SIG.........Really, the U.S. made SIG's really "uphold" the quality of the older German guns. You couldn't give me a US made SIG after we got an order of guns at our P.D. in which 50% didn't go bang out of the box. Not like the guns I sold when I worked for Sig's largest West Coast distributor back in the 80's.

Making guns here and investing heavily in the US market has not been a winner for many of these companies. HK in particular has had very poor luck with their lack of adaptation to the US market combined with the US market constantly changing the rules on them. They have done much better in only dealing with MIL/LE sales and Govt. markets. It is a business plan that works.

We do realize that this is all a business......guns, gun magazines, gear, the whole thing......right?

Liberal ownership and leanings in our world........you would be shocked at how many of our enemies are in the camp. Keep in mind, hypocrisy is the way of the progressives. In some cases, "our own" support the Dems to make money off of future favors on government contracts, others.......closet liberals.

Jerry Tsai...totally jacked up whatever it was Mike Cabrera was trying to explain to him in regards to the gun. First, Mike is a good dude. He has been demonized on the net as some nobody cop.....far from the truth. I've worked shows with Mike. He worked at one of the most liberal and politically correct agencies on the West Coast. His JOB is to sell guns to P.C. agencies in California run by scary liberal Chiefs. He is not going on record saying he thinks everybody in the world should have a full auto MP-7 filled with AP. I am sure something got screwed up between Mike's comments on a day at the range, and how Jerry wrote it. Jerry made a rookie mistake. Jerry said he was sorry and made a mistake. I make lots of mistakes. I've always appreciated when people gave me a chance to learn from them. Some haven't. An apology is apparently not good enough....okay, get rid of a magazine that was trying to make modern firearms okay to sheeple, and if we think that is great, then its great. Doesn't hurt me, but I do have a new standard for my level of tolerance in this industry of b.s.-NO QUARTER-Period. I am planning to limiting my time on the net in the future so I don't go nuclear on those who make mistakes. RECOIL is gone, okay.

As far as HK goes, I will challenge those in the future who want to trash them about the "sporting" stuff to ask what they have done to repeal the 68 GCA as unconstitutional, and they better have a great answer. The guys on HK PRo are always whining about why HK guns are rarely in the gun media........I think we have an answer, and I would think HK will be real happy to indulge the press in the future. I know HK is far from perfect, but I have always gotten a quality product, and lately, fantastic customer service.

[TGS]

Jerry Tsai...totally jacked up whatever it was Mike Cabrera was trying to explain to him in regards to the gun. First, Mike is a good dude. He has been demonized on the net as some nobody cop.....far from the truth. I've worked shows with Mike. He worked at one of the most liberal and politically correct agencies on the West Coast. His JOB is to sell guns to P.C. agencies in California run by scary liberal Chiefs. He is not going on record saying he thinks everybody in the world should have a full auto MP-7 filled with AP. I am sure something got screwed up between Mike's comments on a day at the range, and how Jerry wrote it. Jerry made a rookie mistake. Jerry said he was sorry and made a mistake. I make lots of mistakes. I've always appreciated when people gave me a chance to learn from them. Some haven't. An apology is apparently not good enough....okay, get rid of a magazine that was trying to make modern firearms okay to sheeple, and if we think that is great, then its great. Doesn't hurt me, but I do have a new standard for my level of tolerance in this industry of b.s.-NO QUARTER-Period. I am planning to limiting my time on the net in the future so I don't go nuclear on those who make mistakes. RECOIL is gone, okay.

I guess this whole thing is just an example of "live by the sword, die by the sword." If their paycheck is provided by the people, then offending those people is probably not a good idea. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, that sort of thing. What he said goes beyond a simple mistake, misunderstanding, or erroneous information, and he's a public figure that depended on the public.

If I jack up one of my patients or say something inappropriate to one of them, chances are they'll sue me. If Mitchell dumps on one of his clients, they'll probably come back with a vengeance after their jail term. If Todd wrote that all gun owners are terrorists, his blog would probably flatline. That's how the cookie crumbles, and I guess I just don't see it as so perverse, unusual or sad as you do.

[LHS]

Tsai did more than 'make a mistake'. If that's all he did, nobody would really be mad. But then he doubled down on that mistake by emphatically and enthusiastically regurgitating that sad old 'sporting purposes' trope. That's not an apology. And it's already becoming fodder for the libs in the media. The only 'apology' he finally expressed came only after all their major sponsors pulled out amidst the uproar. That does not smack of sincerity, it smacks of desperation and deception.

HK is HK. They do what they do, and a lot of it is due to stupid German legal issues and (as you mentioned) the changing US legal environment. I'm sure business aspects figure into it as well. Do I wish they would have sold the 416 uppers in the US sooner? Yep. But in the end I don't honestly care one way or the other, I'm not upset with them. I'm upset with someone who should have known better, who made a verbal ND and then said it wasn't his fault, and wasn't even an ND, until enough pressure came to bear that he realized he had to try and salvage his job.


"FN, Beretta, Sig, Steyr, Arsenal, and others have found ways around the import restrictions, mostly by creating domestic manufacturing facilities. HK could do the same."

Ummmmhhh........they do have one. They make the MR556/762, HK416/417 there as well as the HK45/45C.

How about some history. HK had a big presence here at one point. It went away when their business plan got cancelled in 89 and again in 92(?) on the second go round. Steyr had guns being made here again after getting boned by the same "new" sporting definitions as HK. Then, there US maker decided that following rules wasn't really required and they got shut down. SIG.........Really, the U.S. made SIG's really "uphold" the quality of the older German guns. You couldn't give me a US made SIG after we got an order of guns at our P.D. in which 50% didn't go bang out of the box. Not like the guns I sold when I worked for Sig's largest West Coast distributor back in the 80's.

Making guns here and investing heavily in the US market has not been a winner for many of these companies. HK in particular has had very poor luck with their lack of adaptation to the US market combined with the US market constantly changing the rules on them. They have done much better in only dealing with MIL/LE sales and Govt. markets. It is a business plan that works.

We do realize that this is all a business......guns, gun magazines, gear, the whole thing......right?

Liberal ownership and leanings in our world........you would be shocked at how many of our enemies are in the camp. Keep in mind, hypocrisy is the way of the progressives. In some cases, "our own" support the Dems to make money off of future favors on government contracts, others.......closet liberals.

Jerry Tsai...totally jacked up whatever it was Mike Cabrera was trying to explain to him in regards to the gun. First, Mike is a good dude. He has been demonized on the net as some nobody cop.....far from the truth. I've worked shows with Mike. He worked at one of the most liberal and politically correct agencies on the West Coast. His JOB is to sell guns to P.C. agencies in California run by scary liberal Chiefs. He is not going on record saying he thinks everybody in the world should have a full auto MP-7 filled with AP. I am sure something got screwed up between Mike's comments on a day at the range, and how Jerry wrote it. Jerry made a rookie mistake. Jerry said he was sorry and made a mistake. I make lots of mistakes. I've always appreciated when people gave me a chance to learn from them. Some haven't. An apology is apparently not good enough....okay, get rid of a magazine that was trying to make modern firearms okay to sheeple, and if we think that is great, then its great. Doesn't hurt me, but I do have a new standard for my level of tolerance in this industry of b.s.-NO QUARTER-Period. I am planning to limiting my time on the net in the future so I don't go nuclear on those who make mistakes. RECOIL is gone, okay.

As far as HK goes, I will challenge those in the future who want to trash them about the "sporting" stuff to ask what they have done to repeal the 68 GCA as unconstitutional, and they better have a great answer. The guys on HK PRo are always whining about why HK guns are rarely in the gun media........I think we have an answer, and I would think HK will be real happy to indulge the press in the future. I know HK is far from perfect, but I have always gotten a quality product, and lately, fantastic customer service.

[Tamara]

The fact that internet gun dorks almost instantly turned this into a discussion about HK guns rather than about their exploitation by a shallow and calculating publishing company that didn't even think highly enough of their intelligence to hire someone who was actually a gunnie to run their new "Maxim For Gun Owners Who Use Axe Body Spray" book depresses the living **** out of me.

[TCinVA]

A number of industry players seem intent on trying to mentor the Recoil weenies out of...I dunno, whatever level of stupid they're on I guess.

My question:

Why?

The fact that it's a gun magazine doesn't mean that if they go down the Constitution goes down with it. Just walk the ***CENSORED*** away, fellas. Pull your advertising and get the heck off the ship before it sinks. The people who perpetrate these sort of things have a way of making off with the money while the rest of the people who actually had morals and good motives get left holding the bag. Don't believe me? Look at how Triton ammunition went down.

There's nothing to be gained by investing yourselves and your company into rehabbing this. All you're likely to do is alienate potential customers. You may think their objections are stupid, but their money is still green. I can understand risking sales over a principled stand, but there's no principle at stake here. Just the future of some ridiculous publication that's trying to be, as Tam so eloquently put it, the Axe Body Spray of gun journalism.

Cut your ties and walk away.

[orionz06]

A number of industry players seem intent on trying to mentor the Recoil weenies out of...I dunno, whatever level of stupid they're on I guess.

My question:

Why?

The fact that it's a gun magazine doesn't mean that if they go down the Constitution goes down with it. Just walk the ***CENSORED*** away, fellas. Pull your advertising and get the heck off the ship before it sinks. The people who perpetrate these sort of things have a way of making off with the money while the rest of the people who actually had morals and good motives get left holding the bag. Don't believe me? Look at how Triton ammunition went down.

There's nothing to be gained by investing yourselves and your company into rehabbing this. All you're likely to do is alienate potential customers. You may think their objections are stupid, but their money is still green. I can understand risking sales over a principled stand, but there's no principle at stake here. Just the future of some ridiculous publication that's trying to be, as Tam so eloquently put it, the Axe Body Spray of gun journalism.

Cut your ties and walk away.

Without naming names/faces/entities do you really think that the long term is the masses really not purchasing the next gizmo because name/face/entity refused to publicly scold the magazine?

While I am pleased as a peach that my most recent significant purchase was from SilencerCo who spoke out against them for saying stupid stuff I am not sure it will prevent me from buying the best gizmo if that gizmo is made by a company who didn't pile on. Remember, we are a small portion of firearms and accessory sales. Most of the guys obsessing over the latest plastic magazine have no idea this magazine exists and if they do they think the pictures are awesome and they buy what they see.

[Savage Hands]

http://whois.domaintools.com/valkyrietactical.com

And his nonsense is being used by the anti's as predicted...
https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/posts/470114826352692

[TCinVA]

Without naming names/faces/entities do you really think that the long term is the masses really not purchasing the next gizmo because name/face/entity refused to publicly scold the magazine?

I don't think it will cause sales to drop to zero.

Having watched the internet function for a while now, I do think that when somebody comes on and asks about Super Tactical Widget #14 put out by Uncle Wuzzy's House of Ninja on a forum that somebody is going to mention "Hey, FYI, Uncle Wuzzy's House of Ninja advertised with this magazine that said civilian pukes like you shouldn't be able to buy Super Tactical Widgets."

That may not catch all potential purchasers...but with the margins most companies live on it doesn't have to for it to make a big dent in their bottom line.

[Savage Hands]

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s480x480/557411_278470718929376_170838286_n.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

Now that was funny. :cool:

[Tamara]

Jerry made a rookie mistake. Jerry said he was sorry and made a mistake.
No, first he got snotty and doubled down and issued a slightly condescending response to the people who initially called him on his mistake.

THEN, when the tidal wave hit and he realized that he had really and truly stepped on his dick, THEN the apologies and the "that's not what I meant" and the "I've learned so much" happened.

RECOIL has pictures of cool guns in it, production values are high, and its graphic design is light years ahead of most other magazines of the genre *coughGuns & Weapons For Law Enforcementcough*, but the content has been uneven (http://vuurwapenblog.com/2012/09/09/two-reasons-why-recoil-magazine-actually-sucks/) and it's a little disingenuous to make it sound like it's the only alternative to Blued Steel & Walnut Monthly on the newsstand.

I'd like to see it survive, but there's gonna need to be some fresh blood on the masthead, I think.

[LittleLebowski]

When/if I meet Tamara, I plan to arrive in a cloud of Axe body spray.

[TCinVA]

If the statement I've seen elsewhere attributed to the publisher of Recoil is accurate, then they are quadrupling down on stupid and insisting that H&K did it.

[JV_]

When/if I meet Tamara, I plan to arrive in a cloud of Axe body spray.It's leeched in to your clothing - from your office mate?

[LittleLebowski]

It's leeched in to your clothing - from your office mate?

No, he's a Designer Imposter Fragrance kind of guy. I have to bust out the good stuff to impress Tam.

[Zhurdan]

http://whois.domaintools.com/valkyrietactical.com

And his nonsense is being used by the anti's as predicted...
https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/posts/470114826352692

So many ignorant, uninformed people on that facebook page. Why, if they're so adamant about the "laws", do they not even understand that if it were imported, it still wouldn't be full auto and it wouldn't come with super-awesome-heat-seeking bullets with the shoulder thing that flips up?

My faith in humanity slips a bit more each day.

[JMS]

I wish the RECOIL staff luck in convincing anybody (except for those that genuflect at the mention of HK) that HK is a part of their final-editing-before-going-to-print process....

P.S.: When LL says "cloud," envision one of the misty scenes from The Hound of the Baskervilles....hugs the ground, everywhere. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!

[John Ralston]

And his nonsense is being used by the anti's as predicted...
https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/posts/470114826352692


And the comments from the Anti's are unbelievable.

[ToddG]

If the statement I've seen elsewhere attributed to the publisher of Recoil is accurate, then they are quadrupling down on stupid and insisting that H&K did it.

Is this something new since we began the discussion? If so, link please. I've been chatting back and forth with Wayne Weber (president of HK-USA) and there is no way HK took the anti-RKBA position suggested by Tsai earlier.

[Tamara]

Quote of the Day on the subject:

"If I was one of Recoil’s investors, I would be pissed off, and I’d really want to know what dumbass made the decision to hire people who knew absolutely nothing about a particular culture to edit a magazine about that culture. That is sort of like hiring Michael Vick to be editor of Dog Fancy." -Larry Correia (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/recoil-magazine/)

[TCinVA]

Is this something new since we began the discussion? If so, link please. I've been chatting back and forth with Wayne Weber (president of HK-USA) and there is no way HK took the anti-RKBA position suggested by Tsai earlier.

Supposedly Rob Pincus posted this on facebook:



Rob Pincus
Here's the "official" word from Recoil On Jerry Tsai's continuing role:
RECOIL Magazine’s Koch MP7A1, Recoil wishes to make the following points clear:

· It is simply not credible for anyone to question Recoil’s support for, and commitment to, the Second Amendment. Recoil is first and foremost a gun lifestyle magazine, aimed at the modern shooting enthusiast.

· The opinions in the paragraph in question accurately reflected those of the manufacturer, and should have been reported as direct quotes. Recoil acknowledges the way the paragraph was written has caused unnecessary confusion.

· Jerry Tsai, a passionate gun enthusiast and the visionary behind Recoil magazine, will remain as editor of Recoil.

We thank you for your support and understanding.

Quite honestly, if you read the article, it was one paragraph that was actually quoted from the manufacturer and we did not state it that way. Recoil has 26,000 likes on face book and the magazine has only been out for three issues and issue number 4 is just hitting the streets. I honestly believe that this will not hurt the magazine. I have not lost anyone as a result of this and do not expect to.

Joe Galloway
Associate Publisher
5.0 Mustang & Super Fords
Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords
Phone 813-675-3493
Fax 813-675-3557
Email joe.galloway@sorc.com
Assistant: Jennifer Conklin 813-675-3507


Found:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1364300_Recoil_Magazine_is_Anti_Gun_Apparently.htm l&page=41

I don't facebook so I don't have access to this...but it sounds pretty much like the initial response from Recoil's gaggle of bufoons: That H&K was the culprit and they just repeated what H&K said.

It's also worth noting that there are multiple people over on M4C with the colored titles who are re-enforcing the idea that H&K really said this. I've also gone head to head with a couple of other firearms manufacturers who have essentially done the same on AR15.com, and have kindly explained that if it was supposedly one of their reps being quoted in some RKBA goat rodeo by the Axe Body Spray of gun magazines that they'd probably like being able to speak for themselves rather than be crucified publicly for inaccurate information sourced from people trying desperately to cover their buttocks.

They might want to weigh in on this. Like, soon.

[ToddG]

Thanks, TC. Passed it on the HK. Hopefully, they'll respond publicly sooner rather than later.

[Dagga Boy]

Now, I will throw them under the bus. They should have stuck with the apology. Because Jerry couldn't translate the HK situation with importation into a proper context, it is not a reason to blame them. As I have said, I am sure some mention was made to Tsai that HK is never planning to import the MP-7 in a "sporting" configuration to comply with U.S. laws, AND they don't want people calling to ask for one was somehow turned into what was printed. I have spent the last day trying to explain to people the import laws that foreign companies face that is not foisted on US makers who would be screaming bloody murder and would have challenged the GCA 0f 1968 on its sporting test a LONG time ago.

[LittleLebowski]

P.S.: When LL says "cloud," envision one of the misty scenes from The Hound of the Baskervilles....hugs the ground, everywhere. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing!

Precisely. Tam won't know what hit her.

[ToddG]

Precisely. Tam won't know what hit her.

But, having been shot before, you'll be very familiar with what hits you back. :cool:

for the humor-challenged, I do not actually think Tam would shoot someone just for enveloping her in their personal Oort cloud of body spray.

[JMS]

Just so.

The presence of a persistent chemical agent will provide a distraction from his personality for perhaps 5min. :p

[JAD]

Quote of the Day on the subject:

I think Mike would have described himself as a 'dog enthusiast.'

[TCinVA]

Apparently H&K listened:



Some readers have misinterpreted a recent feature story in RECOIL magazine as a reflection of HK policy. Heckler & Koch has a long presence in the US civilian market and throughout that time has been an ardent and passionate supporter of the Second Amendment and the American civilian shooter. This will always be the case. The contents, opinions, and statements expressed in that feature story are those of the writer, not Heckler and Koch’s. Additionally, the writer and RECOIL magazine have issued a clarification and apology for the ill-chosen words used in the story.

The HK MP7A1 4.6 mm Personal Defense Weapon mentioned in the story is a selective-fire product (capable of “full automatic” fire) and is currently restricted to military and law enforcement agencies by BATF. HK-USA has previously researched introducing similar commercial products, chambered in 4.6 mm, but it was determined that the final product would not have enough appeal or be legally feasible.

— Heckler & Koch USA


http://www.facebook.com/pages/HK-Pro-Shooting-Team/136807359702070

[Tamara]

Apparently H&K listened:

My sincerest professional respect to whoever typed that. That was deftly written.

[jetfire]

Apparently H&K listened:



http://www.facebook.com/pages/HK-Pro-Shooting-Team/136807359702070

The cover photo on that page looks really familiar...oh that's right it's because I took it. For a magazine article published in December of 2011. /sigh

[Tamara]

The cover photo on that page looks really familiar...oh that's right it's because I took it. For a magazine article published in December of 2011. /sigh

It's the internets! There's no copyright on the internets! Fair use! Fair use!

1021

[F-Trooper05]

Tsai just announced his resignation. (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/13/jerry-tsai-steps-down-as-editor-of-recoil-magazine/#comments) Hope someone else steps in and saves the magazine. I really have enjoyed it up to this point.

[LittleLebowski]

Reminds me of the Cooper firearms debacle.....

[Tamara]

Tsai just announced his resignation. (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/13/jerry-tsai-steps-down-as-editor-of-recoil-magazine/#comments) Hope someone else steps in and saves the magazine. I really have enjoyed it up to this point.


From Rob Pincus, via email:

The announcement that Jerry Tsai, former Editor of Recoil Magazine, has stepped down certainly opens the door for them to rebuild their advertising base. But, the question still remains, will the change in leadership bring a strong message to young gun owners that the fundamental reason to own a firearm is personal, home and (in the worst case) National Defense ?
Let's hope so.
Keep in mind that this week's conversations, and the many that will be had about Recoil Magazine in the near and (possibly) far future, really revolved not around one man, but around large issues that affect each and every gun owner. The issue is "Why is it okay that we owns firearms?" .
At the end of the day, there really should not be any reason that someone claims, short of the intent to harm another human being outside of defensive action, that anyone should consider wrong. There are many types of guns that we, as individuals, may not like. There are many reasons for owning guns that we, as individuals, may not want to list as our own. Fundamentally, I believe that defense is the primary best reason for firearms to exist and to be owned. I firmly believe that a constitutional interpretation of the right to own firearms is based on defense.
The reason I was personally so invested in the discussion this week was not to see one man replaced. It was to ensure that any voice of leadership in this industry at least agrees that our RKBA should not be legally restricted and that there is no absolutely such thing as a reasonable restriction to the rights of responsible, sane and law abiding person to own firearms.
Certainly, we may not always agree on the best choices for defense, the best ways to exercise our rights or even, believe it or not, the best caliber for any given purpose... but, on the issue of Zero Tolerance for Restrictions, we must be united.
I wish Recoil Magazine, and Jerry Tsai, good luck in rebuilding so long as they do so with a stronger sense of the importance of instilling these principles in the young, enthusiastic gun owners that they reaching... and anyone else who is listening.
-Rob Pincus
-I.C.E. Training Company

[JDM]

I don't agree with a lot of what Rob Pincus teaches, but that was f-ing awesome.

[tmoore912]

Sorry, old info.

[JDM]

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/12/companies-who-have-dropped-advertising-with-recoil-magazine/

[TCinVA]

Just owning the mistake up front and being humble about it would have probably diffused the whole thing.

That being said, we learned some stuff about our community with this:

- There are people out there who won't lift a finger to make a difference in political campaigns who will take a blood oath to ruin anyone who buys add space in a magazine where a dude made a stupid comment. Do not ask me to explain this, as I do not feel like having my brain liquify and run out my ears.

- If you are in the firearms industry, it's best to keep quiet and not do or say anything that can be construed as offensive, lest you begin a massive backlash. The backlash may be complete nonsense and make no sense whatsoever, but these things don't have to make sense for it to get ugly.

- If blood is in the water, get humble really fast and own up to mistakes. Nobody likes admitting that they screwed up, but denying and making counter-accusations just feeds the monster. Ever heard the term "it's the coverup?" Yeah. It works the same on the internet as it does in politics.

- Do not say the words "it'll blow over." because doing so is a spoken challenge to the universe, and the universe will delight in choking you to death on those words. Also, never underestimate the power of today's social media and internet forums to turn a minor kerfuffle into world war III.

- "proportional" and "response" are two words that do not go together in the online world.

- Do not assume that your understanding of events...even if that understanding is complete and accurate in every way...is how things will be seen by others. Events are like a Rorschach test and a vast percentage of the people who don't have all the facts will deduce from what they have something that fits their biases and will then fill in whatever inconvenient gaps with contrivances of their own making based, usually, on other stuff that isn't true either. No, this isn't rational behavior, but who said anything about people in groups behaving rationally?

- It's exceptionally easy to get people from the gunniverse to focus on irrelevant details and assign to them inappropriate importance.

[Comedian]

Just owning the mistake up front and being humble about it would have probably diffused the whole thing.

That being said, we learned some stuff about our community with this:

- There are people out there who won't lift a finger to make a difference in political campaigns who will take a blood oath to ruin anyone who buys add space in a magazine where a dude made a stupid comment. Do not ask me to explain this, as I do not feel like having my brain liquify and run out my ears.

- If you are in the firearms industry, it's best to keep quiet and not do or say anything that can be construed as offensive, lest you begin a massive backlash. The backlash may be complete nonsense and make no sense whatsoever, but these things don't have to make sense for it to get ugly.

- If blood is in the water, get humble really fast and own up to mistakes. Nobody likes admitting that they screwed up, but denying and making counter-accusations just feeds the monster. Ever heard the term "it's the coverup?" Yeah. It works the same on the internet as it does in politics.

- Do not say the words "it'll blow over." because doing so is a spoken challenge to the universe, and the universe will delight in choking you to death on those words. Also, never underestimate the power of today's social media and internet forums to turn a minor kerfuffle into world war III.

- "proportional" and "response" are two words that do not go together in the online world.

- Do not assume that your understanding of events...even if that understanding is complete and accurate in every way...is how things will be seen by others. Events are like a Rorschach test and a vast percentage of the people who don't have all the facts will deduce from what they have something that fits their biases and will then fill in whatever inconvenient gaps with contrivances of their own making based, usually, on other stuff that isn't true either. No, this isn't rational behavior, but who said anything about people in groups behaving rationally?

- It's exceptionally easy to get people from the gunniverse to focus on irrelevant details and assign to them inappropriate importance.

Excellent post!!

[Comedian]

Tsai just announced his resignation. (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/13/jerry-tsai-steps-down-as-editor-of-recoil-magazine/#comments) Hope someone else steps in and saves the magazine. I really have enjoyed it up to this point.

Agree.

[LittleLebowski]

I think Magpul's statement was very well done.


Recently, the editor of RECOIL magazine wrote comments regarding who should and should not have access to certain firearms, as well as comments meant to clarify his initial statements. We at Magpul were severely disappointed in the apparent position of the author and by the comments themselves. We have been asked to provide a response to these comments and a statement regarding our intent to continue or discontinue advertising in RECOIL.

At Magpul we consider ourselves proponents of a culture of personal responsibility, where individual liberties are the true roots of our passion. Firearms are tools that can be an expression of those liberties, and more importantly, the guardians of them. When we were presented with the opportunity to support a new publication, called “RECOIL”, that had a different look and feel, we were on board. We had hopes that the broad appeal and fresh look of a publication of this type could be a big help in getting more people involved and interested in firearms and firearm freedoms issues. We welcome all who enjoy or appreciate firearms for any lawful purpose, as greater numbers strengthen our cause. We also want to partner with those who share our appreciation of the true struggle we are in regarding our Second Amendment freedoms.

Due to concerns about content and true motivation, we allowed our support for RECOIL to expire, with the current issue being our last, until we could determine if we were truly speaking the same language. The recent comments and subsequent clarification made by the editor of RECOIL are completely counter to our position here at Magpul. These statements proved that there is an apparent gap between our values and those of RECOIL. As such, we have chosen not to continue or renew any advertising support for RECOIL magazine unless and until we are convinced at some future point that this publication truly shares our values and has the best interests of Magpul and our customers in mind.

We sincerely hope that the outpouring of Second Amendment support as a result of these comments can continue with as much strength towards educating existing and potential new shooters about the importance of firearms rights and in contacting elected officials to preserve those rights. We look forward to future efforts to reach a broader audience through individual effort, and perhaps through an appropriately focused publication, to continue growth in the number of Americans who enjoy celebrating our Second Amendment heritage.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I wonder if most of the people so outraged at Recoil magazine's misunderstanding of the 2nd amendment have a clue about what is really going on with it today in terms of the legal system, where it's been, where it's going, and how it will/will not change things...

Then I stop wondering.

And I weep.

[Zhurdan]

Along those same lines, it amazes me just how many supposedly 'smart' people think that anyone can buy any machine gun anytime they want. Along with the fact that those same people believe that all you need to do is 'shave down the pin' and it'll make anything full auto.

A sure sign of either peoples gullibility or their total stupidity.

I also weep.

[Tamara]

I wonder if most of the people so outraged at Recoil magazine's misunderstanding of the 2nd amendment have a clue about what is really going on with it today in terms of the legal system, where it's been, where it's going, and how it will/will not change things...

I do. Just fine, actually. As a matter of fact, dealing with federal firearms law has consumed probably as much of my adult life as dealing with Connecticut's DUI laws has yours, I'd imagine. ;)

EDITED TO ADD: I'm sorry, that was probably excessively snarky on my part. But seriously, just because someone is taking a different stance on an issue doesn't necessarily mean they're an ignorant clownshoed yayhoo. I'd probably do well to remember that myself more often, come to think of it. ;)