In a Mass Knife Fight to the Death Between Every American President, Who Wins/Why?

[Sheep Have Wool]

Saw this on another board, thought it was absolutely epic, and figured that the posters here could have a more educated take on the subject.

In a mass knife fight to the death between every single American president, who wins and why?

The original Reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalWhatIf/comments/ynout/in_a_mass_knife_fight_to_the_death_between_every/) had these conditions on the scenario:



Every president is in the best physical and mental condition they were ever in throughout the course of their presidency. Fatal maladies have been cured, but any lifelong conditions or chronic illnesses (e.g. FDR’s polio) remain.


The presidents are fighting in an ovular arena 287 feet long and 180 feet wide (the dimensions of the Roman Colosseum). The floor is concrete. Assume that weather is not a factor.


Each president has been given one standard-issue Gerber LHR Combat Knife , the knife presented to each graduate of the United States Army Special Forces Qualification Course. Assume the presidents have no training outside any combat experiences they may have had in their own lives.


There is no penalty for avoiding combat for an extended period of time. Hiding and/or playing dead could be valid strategies, but there can be only one winner. The melee will go on as long as it needs to.


FDR has been outfitted with a Bound Plus H-Frame Power Wheelchair, and can travel at a maximum speed of around 11.5 MPH. The wheelchair has been customized so that he is holding his knife with his dominant hand. This is to compensate for his almost certain and immediate defeat in the face of an overwhelming disadvantage.


Each president will be deposited in the arena regardless of their own will to fight, however, personal ethics, leadership ability, tactical expertise etc., should all be taken into account. Alliances are allowed.


An absolutely ridiculously detailed take was posted here (http://faceintheblue.wordpress.com/2012/08/22/in-a-mass-knife-fight-to-the-death-between-every-american-president-who-would-win-and-why/) on a blog, and included gems like:


6) John Quincy Adams. That man had a murderer’s face, a murderer’s eyes, and a murderer’s haircut. Based on these intimidating characteristics alone I’m going to say he makes Top 10. If he teams up with dear old Dad and they watch each other’s back they might even become crowd favourites until the portly lawyer is overcome by a rabid Jackson/Lincoln/Teddy Roosevelt assault.


15) James Buchanan. I’m going to put it out there: I think he’d be picked on. I believe at least half of the presidents after his time would want to be the guy to murder Buchanan. Dead early, and his corpse would be stabbed a few times to makes sure, and only Harriet Lane –his niece– is left to mourn him.


33) Harry S. Truman would make a good show of things, but he was a little guy. No reach. No intimidation. That said, he keeps calm under pressure and is willing to make hard decisions. I definitely think he’d be a major force early on, perhaps even delivering the coup de grace on those left suffering.

Make sure you read the post. It's hilarious. Personally, I'm going with Lincoln. Solid reach, strong guy, and a will to win. What say you?

[Zhurdan]

Well, Lincoln WAS a vampire hunter.

[JDM]

Washington of course.

[TGS]

I'm honestly shocked that Andrew Jackson hasn't been mentioned.

If you know just the slightest bit about President Jackson, you would know why he'd win.

I'd go so far to danger that if he lived in contemporary times, he wouldn't even have graduated high school and he'd be in prison running shank fighting clubs for fun.

[NickA]

Theodore Roosevelt, and he probably wouldn't even use the knife until he ran into Lincoln.
Washington was supposedly a brutal fighter so he'd do well. Jackson would be there in the end, but I don't think he wins without his whoopin' stick.

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[Sheep Have Wool]

I'm honestly shocked that Andrew Jackson hasn't been mentioned.

He's way up there, but I don't think he's the winner. He'd have the highest kill count, but would sustain enough damage from charging screaming directly into the face of danger that someone sneaky would take him out.

[Chemsoldier]

Facinating and hilarious. Someone has no life and mine is better for it.

[JodyH]

Teddy Roosevelt for the win, hell he'd probably cut himself before the opening bell just to get in the mood.
Carter down in the first 30 seconds.

[Sheep Have Wool]

What kind of shape was Teddy in during his presidency, though? And wasn't he relatively short? I think he'd be one of the top 5 or so, but I think someone with superior physical attributes - like Washington - would take him out.

[Joe in PNG]

Let's see...
-Obama: spends the warm up hour bragging about how great he's going to do, and winds up the first one dead when Clinton knifes him in the back.

-Clinton: would get a surprising good body count via backstabbing some of the weaker presidents while proposing alliances. Would likely get backstabbed by Nixon in turn.

-William "Tippecanoe" Harrison: The dark horse of the bunch.

-Grant would also go very well if you gave him some likker before the battle- maybe even top 5.

[NickA]

What kind of shape was Teddy in during his presidency, though? And wasn't he relatively short? I think he'd be one of the top 5 or so, but I think someone with superior physical attributes - like Washington - would take him out.

Very good, I think. Would have been about 43 when he took office, only a few years after leading the Rough Riders, and was known to engage in the most strenuous activities he could at every opportunity.
AFTER his presidency he was still strong enough to go on an extended African safari, get shot and continue giving his speech, and lead an absolutely epic expedition down an uncharted river in Brazil with his son Kermit. (River of Doubt is a great book about this)
His health didn't start declining until after this trip, due to an infection from a leg wound, worsened by the bullet that was still in his chest (removing bullets is for pansies, dontcha know).
So yeah, early in his presidency he was probably strong enough to punch bears for fun.

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[Al T.]

Washington, Jackson and Lincoln for the top three. Teddy would be up there unless he loses his glasses.

[TGS]

Very good, I think. Would have been about 43 when he took office, only a few years after leading the Rough Riders, and was known to engage in the most strenuous activities he could at every opportunity.
AFTER his presidency he was still strong enough to go on an extended African safari, get shot and continue giving his speech, and lead an absolutely epic expedition down an uncharted river in Brazil with his son Kermit. (River of Doubt is a great book about this)
His health didn't start declining until after this trip, due to an infection from a leg wound, worsened by the bullet that was still in his chest (removing bullets is for pansies, dontcha know).
So yeah, early in his presidency he was probably strong enough to punch bears for fun.

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Lets not forget that he wanted to raise another volunteer infantry and take them to Europe as part of WWI.

Definitely still had it in him.

Unless Teddy could form an alliance in order to beat Jackson and then kill everyone else afterwards, I'm sticking to Jackson winning. He was forged out of the imprisonment, starvation and physical abuse by the hands of the British. Completely ruthless and cold hearted individual, he executed several of his soldiers for inebriation. He beat the living shit out of an assassin, and held the wildest open-invitation keggers at the White House. Also as President, he gave a big "F you" to the US Constitution and told the SCOTUS to stuff it while proceeding to destroy American Indian nations. Tony Montana ain't got shit on Andrew Jackson. Jackson will do whatever it takes to win. He is not a team player. He is not the least bit ethical. He fights dirty, and rigs the fight beforehand in addition. He'd win.

[NickA]

So basically Darth Vader with a walking stick, eh?
You've planted the seeds of doubt.
ETA : I think we need vital stats on the top four, it's too close to call.
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[Andy in NH]

What kind of shape was Teddy in during his presidency, though?

Pretty good I'd say:


His favorite indoor sports to practice in the White House included jujitsu, wrestling, and boxing.

Although this might factor in unfavorably for him:


In 1905, while boxing with a military aide, Roosevelt was punched in the left eye and permanently blinded.

Read more here (http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/troosevelt/section7.rhtml).

[jstyer]

Teddy Roosevelt for the win, hell he'd probably cut himself before the opening bell just to get in the mood.
Carter down in the first 30 seconds.

+1

Teddy no problem... I also agree with Jackson having the highest kill count, but Teddy and the Stache take the day without a sweat.

[JHC]

Washington of course.

It was close between Washington and Jackson but I have to tilt Washington based on his physical stature, personal courage and divine protetection (per Indian shaman of the day). Then again it was once said Jackson had "shoot in his eye". But this is a knife fight so . . .

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Would it be possible to have killed William Howard Taft with a knife that short?


Sent from my brain using my hands

[Joe in PNG]

My top 4:
-George Washington
-Andrew Jackson
-Abe Lincon
-Teddy Roosevelt

Of the 4, Teddy has teh m4d skilz, Washington has luck, Lincon has strength, and Jackson is just freaking angry crazy.

Face it, if Ol Hickory can't have a cane, he'll just use Obama's leg as a club. Jackson would win. He might die right after striding off the field of battle, but he would win. This is a guy who's dueling strategy was "let the other guy shoot me first so I can have time to aim and hit them properly."

[TGS]

My top 4:
-George Washington
-Andrew Jackson
-Abe Lincon
-Teddy Roosevelt

Of the 4, Teddy has teh m4d skilz, Washington has luck, Lincon has strength, and Jackson is just freaking angry crazy.

Face it, if Ol Hickory can't have a cane, he'll just use Obama's leg as a club. Jackson would win. He might die right after striding off the field of battle, but he would win. This is a guy who's dueling strategy was "let the other guy shoot me first so I can have time to aim and hit them properly."


Hahahaha, well put!

[LHS]

I'd have to go with Jackson, but Washington and TR would be a close match. JFK would secretly bang all the First Ladies the night before and be too tuckered out. So would Clinton, but he'd be ruthless enough to forge alliances that he'd break at the drop of a blue dress.

[Joe in PNG]

I'd have to go with Jackson, but Washington and TR would be a close match. JFK would secretly bang all the First Ladies the night before and be too tuckered out. So would Clinton, but he'd be ruthless enough to forge alliances that he'd break at the drop of a blue dress.

If Billy or John boy were to put the moves on the first ladies, and if Jackson was to find out... the match would be over very quickly. No one would really know what happened due to a fine mist of blood obscuring the arena. The final 4 would be determined not by skill or strength, but by distance from Jackson... and forensics after the fact.

Anderew Jackson was a bit like the Hulk- the madder he was, the stronger he got. And messing with his wife made him really angry... and you wouldn't like that!

[ford.304]

What's missing from this analysis is that in a mass free-for-all, the outcome is determined more strongly by alliances than individual skill. Think Survivor. The real question is to look at where alliances would form... would the Republicans and Democrats group together? Would the older Republicans like Abe have anything to do with W and Bush Senior?

I think the post civil war Republican bloc could be a pretty tough out. Multiple war veterans and fairly strong continuity, combined with old timers sense of gentlemanly honor to keep the group together. You know that if Carter, Clinton, Johnson, and Obama teamed up that Clinton and Johnson would trade them to the other team the moment it seemed like they could get an advantage. Similarly, Reagan and the Bushes would shank Nixon before he had a chance to open his mouth.

[The_Dave]

Jackson takes it easily.

Demonstrated ability to absorb melee damage. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_jackson#Early_military_service)

He's got killer instinct. (http://books.google.com/books?id=ZkhmdWo95BsC&pg=PT53&lpg=PT53&dq=andrew+jackson+saw+shoot+in+his+eye&source=bl&ots=I0V2KcIzFS&sig=gc5kJUmlsL8vQNmfYhG32qbcPj4&hl=en#v=onepage&q=andrew%20jackson%20saw%20shoot%20in%20his%20eye&f=false)

God is on his side. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_jackson#Attack_and_assassination_attempt)

[JFK]

I would say Thomas Jefferson because he would have the VP that takes a gun to a knife fight.

[JodyH]

The alliance between Reagan/Bush/Bush would be tough to overcome.
Reagan was a stout guy in his day, Bush Sr. was military/CIA trained and Bush Jr. is very active and wiry.
Two brawlers (Ronnie and Jr.) along with a tactician (Sr.).

[JodyH]

If you throw the VP's into the ring, Cheney would rock the house.
I'd put Cheney up against Ol' Hickory any day when it comes time to gutter fight.

[TGS]

What's missing from this analysis is that in a mass free-for-all, the outcome is determined more strongly by alliances than individual skill. Think Survivor. The real question is to look at where alliances would form... would the Republicans and Democrats group together? Would the older Republicans like Abe have anything to do with W and Bush Senior?

I think the post civil war Republican bloc could be a pretty tough out. Multiple war veterans and fairly strong continuity, combined with old timers sense of gentlemanly honor to keep the group together. You know that if Carter, Clinton, Johnson, and Obama teamed up that Clinton and Johnson would trade them to the other team the moment it seemed like they could get an advantage. Similarly, Reagan and the Bushes would shank Nixon before he had a chance to open his mouth.

I would agree with you except they're in a ring the size of the Colosseum, not a deserted island or forest a few kilometers wide like The Hunger Games. Unlike some Gladiators in the Roman days, they're not going into the fight as a team either. The tempo and close proximity of the fighters would prevent alliances from forming.

[TGS]

Reagan was a stout guy in his day, Bush Sr. was military/CIA trained and Bush Jr. is very active and wiry.

Bush Sr was the pilot of a torpedo-bomber.


I wouldn't bank too much on that as a winning trait in a knife fight.

[JAD]

.
Carter down in the first 30 seconds.
unless he convinced himself that some of the other presidents were Jewish.

[JodyH]

unless he convinced himself that some of the other presidents were Jewish.
Carter/Nixon alliance?
If they convinced each other it was all a Jewish conspiracy they might make a formidable team.

[NickA]

Something to keep in mind: the first rule of the scenario is they are in the best shape they ever were AS PRESIDENT. I forget the exact numbers but Washington and Lincoln were middle or upper 50's, and Jackson was over 60, which was probably like being 100 in that time period. TR was in his early 40's. He had a few nagging injuries and maladies but probably benefitted from the (slightly) more advanced medical science of his day.
Still need to find stats on these guys. IIRC Lincoln and Washington were tallish, not sure about Jackson. So TR gives up some reach, but once he closes, and he certainly would, reach is somewhat negated.

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[LHS]

12) Zachary Taylor: ‘Old Rough and Ready’ had a 40-year military career fighting men armed with hatchets. I like his odds in a knife fight. I really do. Top 10 for sure. Top 5 is not unrealistic. This is a man to watch, folks. If Lincoln and Jackson give him an inch, he’ll bury six inches between their ribs before Roosevelt righteous-indignation’s him to death.

14) Franklin Pierce. In his prime he was a soldier in a era where bayonets were the main thing that got the job done. He also has a touch of madness in his eye in his official portrait. I’m going to say he makes it to the middle of the fight. Beyond that, I can’t say.

Good points here. We tend to forget about the less famous presidents, but Taylor was a hardass in the same vein as Jackson, and possibly more disciplined.

And why does everyone think Lincoln is such a badass? What did he do other than be a tall, gangly lawyer? I confess, I'm not much into the history of Lincoln, so I'm honestly asking.

[JodyH]

And why does everyone think Lincoln is such a badass? What did he do other than be a tall, gangly lawyer? I confess, I'm not much into the history of Lincoln, so I'm honestly asking.
It was tough being gay back in those days. I bet he had to fight on a regular basis. (Google "Log cabin" Republican)
:p

[Corey]

Calvin Coolidge takes it all. "Silent Cal" sounds like some kind of ninja to me, they would never notice him until it was too late:p

[Josh Runkle]

He's way up there, but I don't think he's the winner. He'd have the highest kill count, but would sustain enough damage from charging screaming directly into the face of danger that someone sneaky would take him out.

Someone like Richard Lawrence?

[LittleLebowski]

The alliance between Reagan/Bush/Bush would be tough to overcome.
Reagan was a stout guy in his day, Bush Sr. was military/CIA trained and Bush Jr. is very active and wiry.
Two brawlers (Ronnie and Jr.) along with a tactician (Sr.).

A CIA operative, Bush Sr was not. Far from it.

Reagan and Maggie for the win.

[Nephrology]

wasn't Bush Jr. also a cheerleader? Money is on him to go down like a rock.

My top 3 would be easy -

1. Andrew Jackson
2. Teddy Roosevelt (Remember, eyesight would be healed according to ROE)
3. George Washington

In that order.



If you throw the VP's into the ring, Cheney would rock the house.
I'd put Cheney up against Ol' Hickory any day when it comes time to gutter fight.

I dunno, with his Ticker I think he'd keel over in about 2 minutes. He is not really the brawling type at all.

[Tamara]

TR was in his early 40's. He had a few nagging injuries and maladies but probably benefitted from the (slightly) more advanced medical science of his day.

Teddy Roosevelt gave a 90 minute campaign speech with a bullet in his brisket when he was old enough to be on the AARP mailing list. He opened with the line "Ladies and gentlemen, I don't know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot; but it takes more than that to kill a Bull Moose." Dude like that takes a lot of killin'.

[Slavex]

Eisenhower?

[Kyle Reese]

Eisenhower?

Trudeau.

[Slavex]

as miuch as I hated Trudeau, I think he was weasily enough to probably win this. I mean hell, his son just got a TKO at a charity event against one of our Conservative Senators who looked like he should have ripped his head off. Of course Justin might have got those genes from Jagger..... (thread hijack, sorry)

[Chris Rhines]

I think that Jackson is getting a little bit oversold. Jackson was 61 years old and in poor health when he was first elected president, suffering from chronic headaches, palsy, and respiratory problems (mainly caused by a pistol ball in his lung.) He was also tall, but quite scrawny, weighing in at around 135 pounds on a 6'1" frame. That makes me wonder about his long-term stamina in a battle royale. I figure that Jackson's nasty temper takes him into the later half, but after that, the more physically fit presidents will run a train on him.

As an aside, the story about Jackson nearly killing a would-be assassin is likely an urban myth.

I have TR, Grant, or one of the Bush clan as last man standing. Don't underestimate the value of having someone trustworthy to watch your back.

[Mr_White]

I'm honestly shocked that Andrew Jackson hasn't been mentioned.

If you know just the slightest bit about President Jackson, you would know why he'd win.

I'd go so far to danger that if he lived in contemporary times, he wouldn't even have graduated high school and he'd be in prison running shank fighting clubs for fun.

Not having read the logicks in the rest of the thread, Andrew Jackson was my first thought too.

[pigmalean]

I think that family relations would have an immediate effect:

George W. Bush and George Bush, John Quincy Adams and his father, John Adams, Benjamin Harrison was the grandson of William Henry Harrison, James Madison and Zachary Taylor were second cousins, and Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a fifth cousin of Theodore Roosevelt.

These 8 guys would, I think, immediately pair off as teams, and in what is otherwise a free-for-all, 2 guys would have a huge advantage.


Of course, so many of our Presidents were relatives of FDR, 10 or 11 iirc, it's entirely possible that some/most of THOSE guys would rally around their not-so-able relative, forming a super-team, and with those relatives including Grant, Washington, the Adams, and even Roosevelt, among others, and with many of THOSE guys being some real bada$$es, I think they'd end up killing everyone else off.

What happens then.... I think Teddy ends up last man standing.

[JDM]

The side conversation about compromising on your ideals has been moved:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5336-Is-Political-Compromise-good

Please keep this thread on the topic of presidents knifing each other :p :D

[Andy in NH]

Assuming you leave spirituality out of the equation, one thing which might be interesting to consider is that those presidents coming after Jackson would know what a bad-ass he was (is?) and take measures to "off" him quickly.

Yet Jackson wouldn't know anything about them... especially the veterans like Harrison, Tyler, Pierce, Lincoln, Grant, Harrison, McKinley, and Roosevelt.

The again, Jackson might be so much of a bad-ass that it wouldn't matter!

[LHS]

Thread resurrection, but this seemed to warrant it.

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/088/a/d/andrew_jackson_alien_slayer_by_sharpwriter-d3cq0aj.jpg

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/073/6/4/george_washington_zombiehunter_by_sharpwriter-d3blw90.png

[Robert Mitchum]

Not sure but if Obama lost :)

[Drang]

wasn't Bush Jr. also a cheerleader?
He played rugby.

[hufnagel]

Ulysses S. Grant

reasons:
1) union army leader and a kick ass one at that
2) destroyed KKK
3) West Point grad
5) beard
6) looks like he could kill chuck norris
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Ulysses_Grant_1870-1880.jpg/220px-Ulysses_Grant_1870-1880.jpg

I say Grant FTW.

Any other choices are just wrong. :D

[MDS]

My thinking now is Obama. A few months after the event, when the forensic people gather enough bone fragments to officially declare everyone else dead, Holder will release classified documents showing the ex-potuses (poti?) had been declared terrorists and targeted by drones.

[NickA]

Necropost, since this thread was awesome and there's now a somewhat related book, How to Fight Presidents :D

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/038534757X?pc_redir=1398173787&robot_redir=1

And an article on how researching the book got the author noticed by the Secret Service:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-comedy-article-got-me-placed-no-fly-list/

[Erik]

I need to read Cracked more often.

[Josh Runkle]

Agreed. The Cracked article was hilarious.

[Mike C]

LHS, Lincoln was noted for his physical strength when he was younger. I am sure many of the tales were embellished but gaging from his stature alone some of those tales probably hold some water. What strikes me as Lincoln's greatest asset is not even his physical ability but his mental strength and fortitude. Many are completely unaware of his constant battle with mental illness. He suffered from severe depression yet had the mental strength, willpower and insight to move past his illness and to climb to the top. That alone scores some serious points in my book. Mentally I think he was one tough mother kitten.