P365xl vs P320 for me, how much slower? Timers and targets don't lie

[fatdog]

I see people who measure it often say their small gun scores are 10-15% under their performance with a full size gun.

In December I bought a P320 and P365xl and I have shot those two exclusively since then. I got curious about what the actual meaningful, for every day CCW, performance gap really is. As we all know that P365xl is easier to carry for most people. What am I really giving up?

But if the performance standard is only about non-LE CCW defensive encounters, there are some things frequently measured in most drills that just are not as important as others in my view. I decided the first thing that is not relevant in making this determination is a reload. It has no bearing on this decision.

The second thing I decided to “not consider” is shot to shot splits on the same target. There is no doubt that those are faster for me with the P320, but it only amounts to several hundreds of a second. That really does not matter to me in this context.

What does matter more that I wanted to measure? First round accurate hits have to come to the top of my list. Second is my ability to engage multiple targets. Third was measuring at realistic engagement distances.

I created 2 drills to come up with my “personal performance that matters” % difference number in this context. Both are modeling some worst case scenarios.

I call the first the “three bad guys”. Tom Givens has emphasized having a “3 bad guy gun” because of the increased incidents of bad guys working together, which he has indicated means 10 rounds or more. Both these guns meet that parameter. His data also suggests the likely ranges for criminal encounters for us are 3-7 yards. So I made the first drill 3 IDPA targets in an array at 3, 5, and 7 yards. Targets engaged near to far.

Start position for all my drills was facing the closest target. Concealed in my normal carry mode. Arms fully extended with both palms facing the target, hands in the classic Southnarc/Thompson “fence” which to me is a more realistic start position than some surrender position.

89287

At the (random delay) start signal, draw and fire one round each. For any run where all three hits were not in the “0” chest zone I threw that string out as a failure. To get a real sample, I ran the drill 20 times with all good hits, and averaged the times for both the P320 and the P365xl. I think I threw out 4 runs from the average for a hit outside the 0 zone.

Second drill, I was thinking about the story Spencer Keepers told about encountering the 5 potential bad guys in the pickup truck at his mailbox, that resonates with me. I simply changed the array to 5 targets, this time 3, 5, 7, 10 and 15 yards. Same start position and stage procedure. Also averaged the 20 perfect hits runs.

89288

While I am sure my times were about double what JCN or GJM or other very accomplished shooters here would have done on the same drills, all that matters in this test is what the difference is for me, and is my performance a worthy consideration for which of these guns I choose to strap on and carry out the door.

My results, 3 bad guys, the P365xl is 6.53% slower.

5 bad guys, 7.85% slower.

That is not a huge handicap in my view.

[JCN]

I see people who measure it often say their small gun scores are 10-15% under their performance with a full size gun.

In December I bought a P320 and P365xl and I have shot those two exclusively since then. I got curious about what the actual meaningful, for every day CCW, performance gap really is. As we all know that P365xl is easier to carry for most people. What am I really giving up?

But if the performance standard is only about non-LE CCW defensive encounters, there are some things frequently measured in most drills that just are not as important as others in my view. I decided the first thing that is not relevant in making this determination is a reload. It has no bearing on this decision.

The second thing I decided to “not consider” is shot to shot splits on the same target. There is no doubt that those are faster for me with the P320, but it only amounts to several hundreds of a second. That really does not matter to me in this context.

What does matter more that I wanted to measure? First round accurate hits have to come to the top of my list. Second is my ability to engage multiple targets. Third was measuring at realistic engagement distances.

I created 2 drills to come up with my “personal performance that matters” % difference number in this context. Both are modeling some worst case scenarios.

I call the first the “three bad guys”. Tom Givens has emphasized having a “3 bad guy gun” because of the increased incidents of bad guys working together, which he has indicated means 10 rounds or more. Both these guns meet that parameter. His data also suggests the likely ranges for criminal encounters for us are 3-7 yards. So I made the first drill 3 IDPA targets in an array at 3, 5, and 7 yards. Targets engaged near to far.

At the (random delay) start signal, draw and fire one round each. For any run where all three hits were not in the “0” chest zone I threw that string out as a failure. To get a real sample, I ran the drill 20 times with all good hits, and averaged the times for both the P320 and the P365xl. I think I threw out 4 runs from the average for a hit outside the 0 zone.

Second drill, I was thinking about the story Spencer Keepers told about encountering the 5 potential bad guys in the pickup truck at his mailbox, that resonates with me. I simply changed the array to 5 targets, this time 3, 5, 7, 10 and 15 yards. Same start position and stage procedure. Also averaged the 20 perfect hits runs.

While I am sure my times were about double what JCN or GJM or other very accomplished shooters here would have done on the same drills, all that matters in this test is what the difference is for me, and is my performance a worthy consideration for which of these guns I choose to strap on and carry out the door.

My results, 3 bad guys, the P365xl is 6.53% slower.

5 bad guys, 7.85% slower.

That is not a huge handicap in my view.

Nice, I’m glad you did your own experiment!

That’s really all that matters.

If you were going to quantify it, I would consider using something like a B8 center in the 0 instead of just 0…

And score for points like the SWAT-D.

Why?

Because you want to get a sense of the actual change in dispersion because that’s what’s going to carry out to 10-12 yards or if you have to hit something smaller like a head.

So maybe next time you’re out, consider swapping the center for a B8 and run it again to see if time AND scoring drops to give you an actual worse performance aggregate.

Also, I wouldn’t throw out any runs. If you’re failing more with the XL that should matter.

Also also, recoil management is absolutely a weakness of a small gun so I kind of feel like multiple shots on one target should be part of the assessment.

I’d be curious to see what you’d score with a two man Mozambique with tighter scoring parameters and use a hit factor scoring system to see the aggregate difference.

[Lester Polfus]

It used to be that when people would ask "What gun should I..."

I would answer "Glock 19" before they even finished the question.

I am re-thinking that and wondering if it should be a P365 variant. Small enough to carry (and smaller than the G19), but still big enough to shoot well, with the added bonus of being optic ready and able to mount a light for the "gun that stays locked in the safe at home in case somebody kicks in the door."

[YVK]

So, to summarize, first drill was draw and two transitions. Second drill, draw and four transitions. Every target is a single shot. Seems like simple enough setup to tease out which component(s) was slower with a smaller gun. To me that would be the first step in analysis.

[medmo]

I see people who measure it often say their small gun scores are 10-15% under their performance with a full size gun.

In December I bought a P320 and P365xl and I have shot those two exclusively since then. I got curious about what the actual meaningful, for every day CCW, performance gap really is. As we all know that P365xl is easier to carry for most people. What am I really giving up?

But if the performance standard is only about non-LE CCW defensive encounters, there are some things frequently measured in most drills that just are not as important as others in my view. I decided the first thing that is not relevant in making this determination is a reload. It has no bearing on this decision.

The second thing I decided to “not consider” is shot to shot splits on the same target. There is no doubt that those are faster for me with the P320, but it only amounts to several hundreds of a second. That really does not matter to me in this context.

What does matter more that I wanted to measure? First round accurate hits have to come to the top of my list. Second is my ability to engage multiple targets. Third was measuring at realistic engagement distances.

I created 2 drills to come up with my “personal performance that matters” % difference number in this context. Both are modeling some worst case scenarios.

I call the first the “three bad guys”. Tom Givens has emphasized having a “3 bad guy gun” because of the increased incidents of bad guys working together, which he has indicated means 10 rounds or more. Both these guns meet that parameter. His data also suggests the likely ranges for criminal encounters for us are 3-7 yards. So I made the first drill 3 IDPA targets in an array at 3, 5, and 7 yards. Targets engaged near to far.

Start position for all my drills was facing the closest target. Concealed in my normal carry mode. Arms fully extended with both palms facing the target, hands in the classic Southnarc/Thompson “fence” which to me is a more realistic start position than some surrender position.

89287

At the (random delay) start signal, draw and fire one round each. For any run where all three hits were not in the “0” chest zone I threw that string out as a failure. To get a real sample, I ran the drill 20 times with all good hits, and averaged the times for both the P320 and the P365xl. I think I threw out 4 runs from the average for a hit outside the 0 zone.

Second drill, I was thinking about the story Spencer Keepers told about encountering the 5 potential bad guys in the pickup truck at his mailbox, that resonates with me. I simply changed the array to 5 targets, this time 3, 5, 7, 10 and 15 yards. Same start position and stage procedure. Also averaged the 20 perfect hits runs.

89288

While I am sure my times were about double what JCN or GJM or other very accomplished shooters here would have done on the same drills, all that matters in this test is what the difference is for me, and is my performance a worthy consideration for which of these guns I choose to strap on and carry out the door.

My results, 3 bad guys, the P365xl is 6.53% slower.

5 bad guys, 7.85% slower.

That is not a huge handicap in my view.

I really dig what you are doing here using math to quantify things and I totally get it. I've been on a similar journey using my drill "fastest and firstest two rounds on a B8 target from conceal." You get the idea. I think ergonomics come into play here. All of the subcompact pistols high capacity pistols feel awkward to me in my 2XL gloved sized hands which equals slower and less accurate. I'm faster and more accurate with a compact sized frame handgun like my G5 19MOS and Beretta Px4CC. Both the G19 and Px4CC have the large grip installed which puts the crease of my trigger finger centered on the trigger. My time and accuracy is best with my Px4CC and not too far behind with my G19 MOS. I'm way behind both of them shooting a SA Hellcat, Glock 43x and a SIG 365XL.

[medmo]

"gun that stays locked in the safe at home in case somebody kicks in the door."

All respect to you and I understand where you are coming from but my situation and thoughts are a bit different. Due to my service experience, I would be totally uncomfy if my nearest solution is locked away in a safe in case somebody kicks in the door. I much prefer within arms reach. That makes me comfy.

[Lester Polfus]

All respect to you and I understand where you are coming from but my situation and thoughts are a bit different. Due to my service experience, I would be totally uncomfy if my nearest solution is locked away in a safe in case somebody kicks in the door. I much prefer within arms reach. That makes me comfy.

Knock yourself out. I have a lockbox I can get into in a few seconds, and prefer my children without bullet holes in them.

[medmo]

Knock yourself out. I have a lockbox I can get into in a few seconds, and prefer my children without bullet holes in them.

Lockbox, perfect. I was imagining a safe in the back of a bed room closet or something like that. I agree on safety first.

[GJM]

I don’t find enough shooting performance difference between a 365 XL and a 320/G 19 to be enough to matter in most practical defensive applications. Where the midsize pistol has advantages, is better higher capacity magazine options, at least for the Glock more weather resistance by the pistol and magazines, and the ability to mount larger or sealed optics.

[Caballoflaco]

I don’t find enough shooting performance difference between a 365 XL and a 320/G 19 to be enough to matter in most practical defensive applications. Where the midsize pistol has advantages, is better higher capacity magazine options, at least for the Glock more weather resistance by the pistol and magazines, and the ability to mount larger or sealed optics.

Does that similar permirmance level include one handed shooting?

[GJM]

Does that similar permirmance level include one handed shooting?

Good question, and probably something each person needs to sort out. JHC tells me he shoots his 43 better with one hand than his G45, but that may be a single anecdote.

[Dave Williams]

Tomorrow I will shoot a G19 w/ 407C and a 365xl w/ 507K on a two hand, right hand, and left hand Rogers drill and post the results, perhaps someone will find it interesting.

[medmo]

I don’t find enough shooting performance difference between a 365 XL and a 320/G 19 to be enough to matter in most practical defensive applications.

So, I kind of thought of that before. Am I over thinking it? Does a few tenths of second from drill to drill make that much difference in practical defensive applications? I guess for me it is kind of a moot point as I can almost always AIWB the pistol I shoot the most fast and best with comfortably.

[fatdog]

Am I over thinking it? Does a few tenths of second from drill to drill make that much difference in practical defensive applications?

I ran this test because I have been convinced over many years by influencers, trainers, and personal experience that I am either carrying a "real gun" meaning service size pistol or compact service size pistol, or else my ability to fight with it is very compromised because I am carrying a "little gun" or "pocket gun", etc.

I am concluding that the P365xl is not one that leaves me seriously "pocket gun" disadvantaged, and is a worthy replacement for when the EDC wardrobe would still allow the service size pistol, at least in the context of my life choices. Said in a PF way, the P365xl for certain ain't the thing that is going to get me kiltindastreetz. That is all.

I am going to run the tests again, next time P320C, P365xl, G19gen5 for my own curiosity, and adjust the two drills I ran based on some suggestions in the thread, run strong hand/weak hand only strings, and then some of the well known "high performance" single target drills. Its only about measuring me vs me in every case.

[medmo]

Great stuff, looking forward to seeing the results of your next tests.

[JCN]

fatdog
medmo

I struggle mightily with this rabbit hole.

Because “carry what you shoot the best” would have me carrying a 45 ounce gamer gun with 2# trigger and 9mm that’s weaker than some 380 ACP.

It’s a slippery slope with no end. I think the best we can do is like fatdog is doing, make the most informed decisions we can.

Eventually, I settled on just setting an objective performance benchmark I would like with whatever I carry and if it meets that, consider it “good enough.”

I like the No Fail plus Bakersfield.

I’ve used FBI handgun qual at 50/50 point requirement too.

[fatdog]

settled on just setting an objective performance benchmark I would like with whatever I carry and if it meets that, consider it “good enough.”

Mostly where I have been for a long time, using the Rangemaster instructor Q course and demanding 95% or better to carry the gun. I can do that with the P365xl once I got a Wilson grip in place. But I was still having the long planted doubts that it was a "small gun" nearly "pocket pistol" and the course was a par time thing and could not measure performance beyond making those hits within time as scored, that drove me to this comparative exercise, to say how much of a difference is there really.

Clearly an OCD subject for me.

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[JCN]

Mostly where I have been for a long time, using the Rangemaster instructor Q course and demanding 95% or better to carry the gun. I can do that with the P365xl once I got a Wilson grip in place. But I was still having the long planted doubts that it was a "small gun" nearly "pocket pistol" and the course was a par time thing and could not measure performance beyond making those hits within time as scored, that drove me to this comparative exercise, to say how much of a difference is there really.

Clearly an OCD subject for me.

I really enjoy seeing your thought process and empiric testing.

Thanks again for sharing!

[ECK]

I shoot my 365XL better with the addition of a Hogue grip than without. At first I was worried it would defeat the purpose of carrying a slim gun, but have not found that it made the gun print more AIWB under a T-shirt.

[Dave Williams]

Cold on Rogers Test 4, two to the body one to the head on two targets, reload and shoot an additional three targets, I faired better with the 365xl (8/9)than the 19(6/9). Then on a Rogers 16 shot blast drill, I shot better with the 19 (12/16) than the 365xl (9/16) strong hand. I then shot better with the 365xl weak hand(12/16) than 19 (7/16).

Need to do more testing, not enough data.

[GJM]

Cold on Rogers Test 4, two to the body one to the head on two targets, reload and shoot an additional three targets, I faired better with the 365xl (8/9)than the 19(6/9). Then on a Rogers 16 shot blast drill, I shot better with the 19 (12/16) than the 365xl (9/16) strong hand. I then shot better with the 365xl weak hand(12/16) than strong hand (7/16).

Need to do more testing, not enough data.

I might say that you have plenty of data. Both guns can be shot pretty darn good, especially for defensive use, and the slight differences in platform would likely be overshadowed by the normal variation in your performance on any individual run.

[Noah]

I love what you're going for, and I also understand the argument that splits aren't the be all and end all, however, if the intent is a "realistic" test, it's extremely likely you won't be able to rely on a single shot to stop someone. While draw speed and first shot accuracy and transitions/moving targets are more important than stationary target split speeds, the ability to put repeat shots in a meaningfully small target zone is something that shouldn't be overlooked.

[fatdog]

the ability to put repeat shots in a meaningfully small target zone is something that shouldn't be overlooked.

I will have to completely disagree that it is an important measurement here. As stated in my original post, I have measured this many times and the difference is literally in hundredths of a second for my splits, I don't think that tiny delta is important or significant for what I am trying to evaluate.

[Noah]

I will have to completely disagree that it is an important measurement here. As stated in my original post, I have measured this many times and the difference is literally in hundredths of a second for my splits, I don't think that tiny delta is important or significant for what I am trying to evaluate.

It's not a raw .25 vs a .33 split I'm worried about. It's the fact that, for me, with a smaller gun, my group size or ability to keep the shots within say, a B8 at 10 yards at that speed, will also degrade. To keep the same level of accuracy, I'll be even slower with the smaller gun.

It's not the most important thing at all, and maybe it doesn't apply to all shooters equally.