Running

[Clusterfrack]

I'm forking this discussion off from a defensive-related thread. Let's discuss RUNNING: movement to minimize the time we spend not shooting. There are some interesting questions, and I hope RJ doesn't mind me using his post to motivate the discussion.

When do we reload? This depends on the length of the movement, and other factors like position relative to the safe angle.

How do we learn to RUN* with a loaded gun? What are some good drills for learning to run as fast as possible, while also being safe?
*like you're in a race or someone is kidnapping your kid

What are some approaches to running while retreating? How do we approach the reload during these movements?

Etc...

GO!


Reloading on the move isn’t always the best approach in USPSA either. If you need to cover a lot of ground fast, it’s usually better to get the reload done and run, or run and finish the reload just before arrival.


Good stuff in all of the above. As a basic .civ CCW'er, really appreciate this discussion.

Huh. Hadn't thought of that. I'm pretty slow between arrays, so maybe this will be an option I can explore to shave some transition time. Not to devolve into USPSA, but running with a loaded gun is something I'm not good at.

[JCN]

“What are these ‘reloads’ of which you speak?”

—Sincerely, PCC competitor.

:D

[hiro]

Clusterfrack

This is specifically in the context of competition?

[Lost River]

Running in a competition environment is extremely different as compared to when you have a gun in your hand and running in a high threat environment.

Can you clarify a bit more what you are wanting to discuss?

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack

This is specifically in the context of competition?

Good questions--thanks. I put this thread in Competition Skills & Discussion subforum, but hope we can talk about relevance to real-world applications.

[Clusterfrack]

Running in a competition environment is extremely different as compared to when you have a gun in your hand and running in a high threat environment.

Can you clarify a bit more what you are wanting to discuss?

Great point, and a good thing to start out this discussion with. I don’t have any agenda other than to plant the seed.

[RJ]

Excellent, I was thinking this might be a good thread to start, glad Clusterfrack got it underway. My question was related to a competition environment, not self-defense. My context is USPSA; specifically Carry Optics, in my case a Glock 34.5 with a 22 round mag.

I'm talking, specifically, exiting from one shooting position to get to another shooting position. I'm generally reloading somewhere in this sequence, so that I arrive at the new shooting position with 22+1. On a typical USPSA stage, my planning includes "where am I going to reload?". Obviously not nearly as often as I used to, in Production, with 10 round mags, but certainly at least once per stage, sometimes twice.

My personal circumstances (63, semi-fit, 5'6", 185#, old soccer injuries) and footwear / typical soil type (trail shoes with lugs, mostly grass, sand, dirt, some gravel in FL) dictate some of my lack of speed. I'm certain I could pick up some time in the transitions.

However, comma, my questions, given the above, would include:

- What is best practice for transitioning out of a shooting position? You've called your last Alpha on the last target, how do you get out of that position and get moving as fast as possible?

- In between: Out the options of running full speed with a loaded pistol, what are the alternatives, and how do you pick the best one? Choices seem to include running one-handed or two handed; hands near low ready, or hands up high? Being mindful of the 180, and having a firm grip, of course.

- As to reloading, options would be reload after the last Alpha and get going, or reloading on the move while walking/semi-running, or reloading on arrival (this last seems like a bad idea?)

- What is the best way to arrive at a shooting position? I vaguely recall from my Feb Tim Herron class he emphasized bending your knees and "putting on the ABS" by going low as you arrived at a new position, gun up, sights tracking, but I may misremember that.


ETA: I have zip to add to the thread, for running with a loaded gun in a self-defense environment. For me, the percentage of time I need to worry about moving from one active shooting position to another active shooting position, "for real" as a .civ CCW carrier, seems vanishingly small, hence my context of shaving time in USPSA, but I don't know what I don't know.

But I certainly would be extremely happy to learn more about aspects of moving / reloading that would lead to more successful outcomes in that context, if I ever happen to be in that situation.

[JCN]

RJ the answers to all those questions with full explanations, caveats and depth are on the Max Michel patreon training.

It’s also why Anderson is just a very, very basic starting point.

The answer to your questions are of course “it depends” and for the learning you seek, it’s there in a comprehensive format for less money than spent on a single class that didn’t teach you that.

The general Max Michel philosophy is get the reload done within 1-2 steps of exit.

Grauffel sometimes delays the completion of reload, but you can’t go wrong following Max.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good question - if you separate out competition reloads vs. 'fighting' reloads - they are different paradigms.

1. In competition, moving between shooting positions is a way to save time.

2. Maintaining the 180 in the confines of the shooting layout is of prime importance

3. Clusterfrack - you are wandering into, if you mention fighting - the horrible IDPA debate of tactical reloads. When would you release a mag with available ammunition? The tactical reload, reload with retention, shooting to slide lock to get a better reload (dumping - had that called on me) are all supposedly fighting issues.

Thus reloading with known positions is different from 'fighting'.

Running - again, that depends on your ability. Moving with alacrity is important in fighting when called for. Sometimes a cautious approach is better. Coming up to a corner, do you charge to it and in front of an opening? I said running speed should be such that you, in fighting, arrive at the shooting position (which may or may not have known vs unknown opponents) with an ability to deal with what that may be. You may or may not know where the targets are. There may be unknown opponents who shoot you - been there on that in FOF and 360 shoot house.

In competition, you arrive such that you can engage the targets. You should not fall on face as I have seen happen as that scares the bystanders. You care little about cover - the great IDPA debate.

So, competition running has some different components from SD movement. In either, skill in drawing the mag, inserting it, racking if necessary need to practiced.

Good discussion.

[P30]

How do we learn to RUN* with a loaded gun? What are some good drills for learning to run as fast as possible, while also being safe?
Yesterday I was jogging in the forest. When I jog, I have my cell phone with me and use a fitness app.

I took the phone in my right hand and made my index finger long like I do when I run with my pistol on an IPSC stage. I assumed the finger was parallel to the barrel and was aware of where my finger was pointing to. This is how I simulated a pistol in my hand. Then: I accelerated as fast as I could for maybe 10 yards, braked hard, sometimes aimed with the phone and repeated (about 20 times). Heart rate went up pretty high (about 150 bpm).

[P30]

My personal circumstances (63, semi-fit, 5'6", 185#, old soccer injuries)
What kind of injuries? Knee or what? Maybe I can point you to some very good stretching exercises that help a lot (in German). Had a quite heavy knee injury myself 5 years ago, learned how to make the knee work better than before. The team doc of Schalke 04, one of Germany's most famous soccer teams, helped me. Schalke finished #2 in the German soccer championship that season. (I'm 51 years old now.)




- What is the best way to arrive at a shooting position? I vaguely recall from my Feb Tim Herron class he emphasized bending your knees and "putting on the ABS" by going low as you arrived at a new position, gun up, sights tracking, but I may misremember that.
That's a good point: Braking/arriving technique. My training exercise above is just brute force training for the muscles (plus the necessary muzzle discipline). But good technique is also very important, e.g. how to transition from running to aiming.

[RJ]

What kind of injury? Knee or what? Maybe I can point you to some very good stretching exercises that help a lot (in German). Had a quite heavy knee injury myself 5 years ago, learned how to make the knee work better than before. The team doc of Schalke 04, one of Germany's most famous soccer teams, helped me. (I'm 51 years old now.)



Ankles. As in twisting them, frequently. Back in the day, on my local club team, I'd just double wrap with a couple layers and get on with it. But fortunately my days of wearing my Adidas "Beckenbauer" 's are behind me. :)

Although, on topic: I may look into a simple wrap before I start up the season this fall when we get back to FL. I'd never actually thought of doing that, it might add a bit of stability instead of looking into mid-rise cleats, or trail shoes (what I have now are basically running shoes with thick, lugged soles.)

[P30]

Ankles. As in twisting them, frequently.
Ankles are not the joints of my "expertise" (knees, hip joints and back are). But I suppose exercises on a balance board (like this (https://www.amazon.com/Yes4All-Wobble-Balance-Board-Round/dp/B07W8TWTJ8a)) will also help the ankles. I used it sometimes for my knees. I would balance with only one foot on it and move the other leg to front, back and side or write numbers in the air with the other foot. I put a rubber yoga mat under the balance board so that it can not slip should I loose balance. Balancing on one foot only directly on the ground and writing numbers with the other foot in the air will also improve the muscles and their control a bit, but the balance board intensifies it.

This is a German YouTube channel with stretching exercises that help me a lot:
Liebscher & Bracht (https://www.youtube.com/c/LiebscherBrachtDieSchmerzspezialisten/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid) (note how many clicks the videos have although Germany has not as many inhabitants as the US).

[Clusterfrack]

Here's a great video Ben Stoeger posted on practical shooting strategy. What I like is that it compares what he does to Krystal Dunn's approach while shooting the same stages. Different skill levels, and different levels of athletic ability, power etc. It also shows some nice running-with-a-gun. Here's a FaceBook link to a video of USPSA GM Matt Hopkins doing some running (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=721950941325123). Again different body type, but very fast and effective.


https://youtu.be/_MybZEjgiVg

[YVK]

"When you do reload" and "running" are different subjects for me. I want to come into the position with a gun up as often as I can.. Unless 180 dictates late reload, I want to reload early.

Running is the most raw athletic component in USPSA and if you're past 40, and I am being generous here, you're unlikely to build more explosiveness and foot speed. Doesn't mean 50+ year old dudes can't move, you just need to look at @cheby (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=8327), but foot speed is what they got from their teens. You could do ladder drills and hit a leg press but it ain't gonna give a high yield.

My personal plan on this, and I hate how I move on stages, is first to keep a general level of athleticism as well as I can. Second, I want to keep running with a gun in practice because a lot of slowing down comes from fear of carrying a gun / breaking 180 etc. You have to be confident that when you pump your arms, you're not gonna get DQ'd. These two are the only things that can affect a raw foot speed at my age. Lastly, actually firstly for me, cutting down on early shuffling / unnecessary footwork on entry is huge. This is from yesterday match. I programmed stepping into the box with a right foot and fire immediately but it took a lot of extraneous steps and premature slowdown to do it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqeobRp6AKc

[Clusterfrack]

I like p30's suggestion to get used to running hard with something in hand. Bluegun or unloaded drills are another great way to explore how to run while navigating the safe angle.

I've done range sessions where I'll run between positions without a gun to set a par time, and try to match it with a gun while not "DQing".


Today’s match had great stages, with lots of options. Two stages had aggressive retreats, one with a draw right on the 180.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220424/e9a2b577a1e5bcd503fb075e7f7b8d2f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220424/10acb1ac69f9fe1c7a2aabf1001d1519.jpg

[Kirk]

I'm not an expert whatsoever on USPSA, as my shooting sport is static. With that said, are we possibly complicating this too much, specifically with regards to running between arrays in a stage? Since this is a sport, I see a lot of guys, even top-level shooters, sort of ignore training basic athleticism. Stronger = more power = more explosiveness = faster = better stage times I'd surmise. Running sprints = better at running = better stage times. I realize that this is unlikely to be geared towards this audience at P-F, because I believe most of us engage in some basic to advanced physical training, but I'd guess that to get better at running a stage, one would run/lift more. I'm not saying you have to be running 5 minute miles in 5Ks, but just some basic squatting/deadlifting and 100-400m sprints would make a lot of guys a lot faster. I imagine you could train sprinting with a SIRT or blue gun to be more sport-specific.

As far as footwork and such, I have no idea and couldn't comment. Certainly couldn't comment on running in a high-threat environment, absolutely no experience there. My post is purely geared at the "running between target arrays" part of USPSA. Even when I competed and comparatively sucked at shooting, I was able to win a couple of field courses because of athleticism back in the day. Of course, our match director liked to set up some pretty wild arrays (one had us run roughly 30y-40y on a sprint to an array).

[Clusterfrack]

reposting this here
A timely blog post by Matt Little of Graybeard Actual on moving with a firearm.

For those not familiar with Matt, he is a former Green Beret, Chicago PD swat officer and a Master class USPSA shooter.


https://greybeardactual.com/blog/moving-with-a-firearm/?fbclid=IwAR1coCMbfk2Ya5QBLXu7ljlTDLe9mHLZguhzhnsF jncfzpgwvUzx4evcqNo

[JCN]

Great post and spot on.

Purposeful and vision directed.

Shooting while unstable.

I’m at the stand and shoot level currently where more stand and shoot practice isn’t going to help my match performance. I’m working half stages in practice to see what’s reproducible and to experiment with what I need stability and vision wise to get reproducibility.

I cannot wait until the gravel gets put down on my range so I can train 3 berm movement.

[BWT]

I'm not an expert whatsoever on USPSA, as my shooting sport is static. With that said, are we possibly complicating this too much, specifically with regards to running between arrays in a stage? Since this is a sport, I see a lot of guys, even top-level shooters, sort of ignore training basic athleticism. Stronger = more power = more explosiveness = faster = better stage times I'd surmise. Running sprints = better at running = better stage times. I realize that this is unlikely to be geared towards this audience at P-F, because I believe most of us engage in some basic to advanced physical training, but I'd guess that to get better at running a stage, one would run/lift more. I'm not saying you have to be running 5 minute miles in 5Ks, but just some basic squatting/deadlifting and 100-400m sprints would make a lot of guys a lot faster. I imagine you could train sprinting with a SIRT or blue gun to be more sport-specific.

As far as footwork and such, I have no idea and couldn't comment. Certainly couldn't comment on running in a high-threat environment, absolutely no experience there. My post is purely geared at the "running between target arrays" part of USPSA. Even when I competed and comparatively sucked at shooting, I was able to win a couple of field courses because of athleticism back in the day. Of course, our match director liked to set up some pretty wild arrays (one had us run roughly 30y-40y on a sprint to an array).

That and fitness. I read an article or heard an SAS operator talking about keeping your heart rate below 140 BPM for shooting, etc.

Being able to have general fitness / mobility and keep a heart rate down while also doing the physically activity and keep vision while doing so has an advantage as well.

I remember doing shooting matches (2-gun) and saw that honestly some of the guys would just be a lot better off if they really ran between certain parts. Or stayed in shape to do so.

[Kirk]

reposting this here

This is an excellent post from Graybeard. This sort of confirms my prior thinking -

“Movement needs to be relaxed and athletic. This does not mean it isn’t explosive. What it does mean is that it shouldn’t be tense or rigid. Movement is movement, and the principles don’t change from other athletic endeavors just because you are operating a firearm.”

My powerlifting coach has a top 100 total overall now and is the head S&C coach at a major HS in the Midwest. He tells people constantly that being strong and fast translates to virtually any endeavor. Graybeard confirms it in USPSA. I guess if you take USPSA as serious as some people do, with a small car worth of guns and a boat worth of ammo per year, you should spend a few hours a week getting more explosive. As previously mention by BWT, being fit with a solid resting HR would help all of us in all shooting sports.

[Clusterfrack]

Great post, Glenn. Here are my responses.

1,2: Agree. And also being safe while running: finger out and away from trigger guard, and the ability to fall safely. Practicing falling with a gun in hand is critical, and few people do it. When a shooter falls, how will they maintain muzzle discipline so they don't ND or sweep self/others?

3: There's already been a ton written about the tactics of reloading. I'm not sure running changes any of that.

Your points about doors, pies, etc. are good. As with running in competition, if we overrun the position or aren't ready to shoot as soon as possible after movement, high speed of movement may not pay off. Examples are bleeding off speed to stabilize the gun, and having gun up with dot/sights near where target will appear.



Good question - if you separate out competition reloads vs. 'fighting' reloads - they are different paradigms.

1. In competition, moving between shooting positions is a way to save time.

2. Maintaining the 180 in the confines of the shooting layout is of prime importance

3. Clusterfrack - you are wandering into, if you mention fighting - the horrible IDPA debate of tactical reloads. When would you release a mag with available ammunition? The tactical reload, reload with retention, shooting to slide lock to get a better reload (dumping - had that called on me) are all supposedly fighting issues.

Thus reloading with known positions is different from 'fighting'.

Running - again, that depends on your ability. Moving with alacrity is important in fighting when called for. Sometimes a cautious approach is better. Coming up to a corner, do you charge to it and in front of an opening? I said running speed should be such that you, in fighting, arrive at the shooting position (which may or may not have known vs unknown opponents) with an ability to deal with what that may be. You may or may not know where the targets are. There may be unknown opponents who shoot you - been there on that in FOF and 360 shoot house.

In competition, you arrive such that you can engage the targets. You should not fall on face as I have seen happen as that scares the bystanders. You care little about cover - the great IDPA debate.

So, competition running has some different components from SD movement. In either, skill in drawing the mag, inserting it, racking if necessary need to practiced.

Good discussion.

[YVK]

89309

Was tempted to come in a gaming rig...


P.S. There's one thing that I tend to forget in matches. Sprinting should be done with a forefoot strike. Sometimes I try to push hard out of a position and it ends up to be a rather long step. Which usually lands me on a heel, and by the time I change to forefoot, I am about to stop for the next array. Most people who never sprinted but ran and jogged use heel strike and it is not a fast stride. Something to look at.