Understanding and Working the LEM Trigger

[Jay585]

I've got a LEM/V1 trigger in my HK P30L and I've been trying to understand it.

Research turned up some thoughts from Todd Lewis Green (may he RIP) on the LEM trigger: no prestaging - treat the trigger like a DAO pull: a smooth rolling break without stopping. My summation, not his

I've got a Mantis and my "control" would be my Gen5 G19 I've had for about 5 years.

89004

I'm not seeing much of a reason not to prestage.

Here's some even more informal tests shooting the P30L and G19 live fire:

10 rounds 7 yards this info is a redundant because I didn't track my times. I also cannot recall if I used the reset.
89005

2nd attempt of the above targets but with 5 rounds instead recording times. My 2nd shot was a reset shot, the rest of them were full trigger presses:
89006

P30L both targets. The right target "felt" faster I do not have a metric that shows it was actually faster:
89007

I will continue to experiment but in the meantime I'd like to hear your thoughts on the usage of the LEM trigger, as well as more possible tests that I can do either live fire or with the MantisX.

I'm fully aware that irons to red dot is not a fair comparison, but I'm doing what I can with what I got.

[flyrodr]

If you haven't seen it, the thread started by Dagga Boy has a wealth of info on the LEM:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot

[JonInWA]

In addition to the Dagga Boy superb thread, in the past few years we've had some excellent and very detailed threads diving deep into LEM. Using the Search function will easily enable you to find them, and they'll probably be useful in your LEM journey.

Best, Jon

[M2CattleCo]

Treat it like a long travel Glock trigger.

Smash through all of it.

Finger all the way off the trigger during reset.

Repeat.

[ER_STL]

Try running the gun at speed and measure your performance. Also note what you're really doing vs. what you think you're doing. :)

I personally cannot pre-stage a trigger under any semblance of run-and-gun pressure, and most of the faster shooters I've watched on video don't do it either; they flip and press instead. I've been through a few classes where staging was hammered home and despite all of my dry-fire reps, it's still an issue at speed for me. Since I want caveman simple choices in front of me when trying to solve the shooting problem I've been given, I've defaulted to always running the trigger like it's a DAO revolver. It's the speed at which I press that varies, depending on the difficulty of the shot.

[RevolverRob]

Treat it like a long travel Glock trigger.

Smash through all of it.

Finger all the way off the trigger during reset.

Repeat.

This.

You treat it like any other long-stroke trigger.

If you prestage you will inevitably push shots low at speed, by anticipating. If you try to ride to the reset you will inevitably get a false reset. I've done both and gotten the t-shirt.

Todd was correct, you treat it like a light DA revolver pull and run it accordingly.

[Jay585]

It was recommended to me to read Daryl Bolke's thread "Why I like the LEM as a 'street trigger' (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot)"

I read through it fairly quickly, skipping posts that weren't directly about the LEM so I may have missed something.

So the why of the LEM as I understand it: safety. No decocking to worry about and long trigger press to fire (which translates to more time to make better decisions). Better than a TDA due to it's lighter press, but similar length of pull.


I am talking in general. I will also contend that I have watched some of the toughest hard as wood pecker lips bad ass's who are very used to dealing with bad guy street level induced violence and chaos lose their situational awareness and stress/multi-tasking control after a shooting (FAR more of an issue than "during"). Source: Post #12 Dagga Boy/Daryl Bolke (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&p=158377&viewfull=1#post158377)


What put the LEM ahead for me is the "post shooting" part of the equation. Forgetting, unable, or for whatever other reason failing to de-cock after the shooting (see the post above what can happen to John Q Public when faced with one of these events). A non de-cocked pistol is scary for AIWB. The LEM provides for both ends of the equation-before and after, same action of trigger to register and that hammer and trigger return to where they should be all by themselves. Post #38 Dagga Boy/Daryl Bolke (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&p=158518&viewfull=1#post158518)

As I continued to read the thread I came across something called "flip and press"

GJM explains it as:


At the risk of catching arrows for over simplifying, the cliff notes version is that after breaking the shot, rather than trying to release the trigger to reset, or just past, you "flip" your trigger forward, often hitting the inside of the trigger guard, and then quickly move your finger back, which is the "press" part.

This is what the Rogers School teaches, and is a technique associated with Robbie Leatham.Post #73 GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&p=158776&viewfull=1#post158776)

In the same post the author says


...TLG (Todd Lewis Green, the creator or pistol-training and pistol-form) gets thru technique by only releasing the LEM trigger to slightly past reset.

GJM finishes with
Interestingly where long travel hurts my fast follow up on successive shots, I like it on an initial shot, as it helps me avoid anticipation, smashing and other imperfections that can happen with a 1911 type trigger when drawing or presenting from a transition.

Later on in the tread a Dr. No comments:

If you work the reset properly, the LEM will shoot like a single action on the second shot at a much lighter weight and shorter travel than the DAK. Post # 45 Dr. No (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&p=158529&viewfull=1#post158529)

Continuing the thread I found something that confirms (short of) my original statement saying that the "flip and press" felt faster than using the reset


I'll start by saying the LEM trigger is very responsive.The light travel of the trigger after the first shot means you get to reset almost instantly .It leads to a feel for the shooter of the gun being ready to fire before they are.With the LEM,it encourages you to shoot it faster. Post # 124 GardoneVT (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot&p=159758&viewfull=1#post159758)

"The light travel of the trigger after the first shot means you get to reset almost instantly". Is this referencing a pin + reset technique of the flip and press? As far as I know there's no reset if you've released the trigger so I presume he must be talking about a pin/reset technique.

In summation it seems that everyone advocates a TDA type press for the first shot (a steady press without stopping or slowing down) with successive shots using flip and press or using the reset. I suppose it's up to me to experiment and see what works best for me

[Jay585]

Treat it like a long travel Glock trigger.

Smash through all of it.

Finger all the way off the trigger during reset.

Repeat.


Try running the gun at speed and measure your performance. Also note what you're really doing vs. what you think you're doing. :)

I personally cannot pre-stage a trigger under any semblance of run-and-gun pressure, and most of the faster shooters I've watched on video don't do it either; they flip and press instead. I've been through a few classes where staging was hammered home and despite all of my dry-fire reps, it's still an issue at speed for me. Since I want caveman simple choices in front of me when trying to solve the shooting problem I've been given, I've defaulted to always running the trigger like it's a DAO revolver. It's the speed at which I press that varies, depending on the difficulty of the shot.


This.

You treat it like any other long-stroke trigger.

If you prestage you will inevitably push shots low at speed, by anticipating. If you try to ride to the reset you will inevitably get a false reset. I've done both and gotten the t-shirt.

Todd was correct, you treat it like a light DA revolver pull and run it accordingly.

It induces a wince to hear that I've been shooting inefficiently all my life. I've always prestaged and reset when shooting a semi-auto (except when using a DAO).

[RevolverRob]

It induces a wince to hear that I've been shooting inefficiently all my life. I've always prestaged and reset when shooting a semi-auto (except when using a DAO).

I'm speaking specifically about LEM triggers.

If you haven't gotten a false reset on an LEM trigger yet, you aren't going fast enough. If you think pre-staging is working, you aren't going fast enough yet. If you think pre-staging is working you aren't going fast enough at a far enough distance yet.

The wheels fall off of most LEM shooters somewhere around .25 splits and 25-yard hard accuracy standards.

ETA: Lest folks get confused. I am not "anti-staging", particularly for longer, braced, shots without a hard time limit. When I shoot long distance revolver shots I will often stage the trigger. Particularly small guns (J-frames) at 25+. Staging and riding the reset on LEM/DAO at speed, however, is often a recipe for false resets and low shots due to anticipation. False resets on an LEM suck extra hard, because when you get a dead trigger, then let it all the way out, you get one of the heaviest and worst DA pulls out there.

[gomerpyle]

Just be mindful that the late TLG was using a V4 or V4.1 LEM trigger, not the V1 that you are using. TLG did describe the V1 LEM as a two stage trigger, which I can attest to - I once owned a P30L with a V1 LEM that shot lights out when taking your time - the first time I shot it I was able to get a nice tight group at 25yds while prepping the trigger (in fact I had unwittingly met a fellow PF member while he was shooting his 1911). But the long, super soft pretravel and the tepid and LONG reset (long in perception of time, not necessarily in distance of travel) proved its undoing for me. I suspect others can make it work (though I am skeptical, easier to simply convert to a V4 or V4.1) but the training involved might not make the effort worth the squeeze.

The V4 LEM trigger feels like more of a true DA pull that you can roll through like any other DA pull. What's more, the stronger reset (vis a vis LEM V1) allows for more quick follow-up shots.

Also, a relevant link: https://pistol-training.com/articles/hk-lem-vs-sig-dak/


I've got a LEM/V1 trigger in my HK P30L and I've been trying to understand it.

Research turned up some thoughts from Todd Lewis Green (may he RIP) on the LEM trigger: no prestaging - treat the trigger like a DAO pull: a smooth rolling break without stopping. My summation, not his

I've got a Mantis and my "control" would be my Gen5 G19 I've had for about 5 years.

89004

I'm not seeing much of a reason not to prestage.

Here's some even more informal tests shooting the P30L and G19 live fire:

10 rounds 7 yards this info is a redundant because I didn't track my times. I also cannot recall if I used the reset.
89005

2nd attempt of the above targets but with 5 rounds instead recording times. My 2nd shot was a reset shot, the rest of them were full trigger presses:
89006

P30L both targets. The right target "felt" faster I do not have a metric that shows it was actually faster:
89007

I will continue to experiment but in the meantime I'd like to hear your thoughts on the usage of the LEM trigger, as well as more possible tests that I can do either live fire or with the MantisX.

I'm fully aware that irons to red dot is not a fair comparison, but I'm doing what I can with what I got.

[Mark D]

gomerpyle raises a good point, there's multiple flavors of LEM.

I'm not as experienced as many here, but I put approximately 13,000 rounds thru LEM guns in the 2018 - 2020 timeframe. My preferred trigger setup was a heavy TRS, combined with a 12lb mainspring. That was the closest I could get to a nice DA revolver.

An 11lb mainspring was really nice but gave me occasional light strikes, so I ended up with 12lb most of the time. Other's have reported good results with the 11lb mainspring, but it wasn't reliable enough for me.

The light TRS provides a lighter trigger pull, but creates more of a "wall" after you've taken up the pre-travel. Some folks like the wall, but I much prefer a rolling break. The light TRS also made reset a bit sluggish.

FWIW I've sold of most of my LEM guns and gone all-in on Glocks.

[gomerpyle]

It induces a wince to hear that I've been shooting inefficiently all my life. I've always prestaged and reset when shooting a semi-auto (except when using a DAO).

But what your prestaging and reset taught you was not only to be mindful of your trigger press but also of the weight required to break the trigger. Once you know that your trigger requires only Xlbs of force to break, when you start rolling thru that break you now know all you need is Xlbs of force, and no more. For what it's worth, Ben Stoeger certainly endorses rolling thru the trigger, but is not one to talk poorly of trigger prepping - precisely because it teaches you to be mindful of your trigger press.

[Irelander]

My P2000SK started out as a V2. I have installed the light firing pin block spring which gives me a nice rolling break and well defined reset. Also installed the GGI short reset kit which is really nice for getting faster follow up shots. I think this setup is the best for me. I struggle to not stage the trigger but I'm getting better.

[TCinVA]

The best way to run an LEM is to think of it like a DA trigger that has pre-travel. Get the pre-travel out of the trigger then run a rolling break.

Rolling break means that you start the movement of the trigger and you don't stop "rolling through" the break of the trigger.

[Jay585]

Probably the last post I'll make regarding "proper" trigger press:

I hope the mods are OK with this LittleLebowski but rather than upload all the images I'll direct to my post I made on HKPro forums:

https://www.hkpro.com/threads/understanding-and-working-the-lem-trigger.548578/page-2#post-3962795

[jeep45238]

Last year I stumbled across two good deals on P30's - one TDA that I did some action polishing on, and a 30L with the same treatment. Both have the GGI short reset kit installed with the idea to mitigate short stroking, just in case.

I dry fired both today, then spent time with a Mantis X to try and quantify any % difference - it was within 3% of each other two handed, strong/weak hand. At the range this evening I shot upper A boxes with no real appreciable difference in accuracy. Having spent a lot of time with revolvers lately, this may be a previously unnoticed shift to "the sights" not "the trigger." Did the whole "put guns in a bag and shake", load, and shoot to try and mitigate mental prejudices.

Splits with the TDA hovered around 0.21, with LEM hovering around 0.20. If you don't have a habit of pulling to the wall, then staging, I think the LEM with a short-reset kit is about as close to a self-decocting TDA as I can get.

[Noah]

Last year I stumbled across two good deals on P30's - one TDA that I did some action polishing on, and a 30L with the same treatment. Both have the GGI short reset kit installed with the idea to mitigate short stroking, just in case.

I dry fired both today, then spent time with a Mantis X to try and quantify any % difference - it was within 3% of each other two handed, strong/weak hand. At the range this evening I shot upper A boxes with no real appreciable difference in accuracy. Having spent a lot of time with revolvers lately, this may be a previously unnoticed shift to "the sights" not "the trigger." Did the whole "put guns in a bag and shake", load, and shoot to try and mitigate mental prejudices.

Splits with the TDA hovered around 0.21, with LEM hovering around 0.20. If you don't have a habit of pulling to the wall, then staging, I think the LEM with a short-reset kit is about as close to a self-decocting TDA as I can get.

I was there last night with my brother. Shame we didn't run into you!

[JonInWA]

As I've commented here in other threads, I've had excellent results with my P30L; it was initially a V1, but I really didn't like the lack of feedback in the long, seemingly weightless trigger pre-travel before hitting the wall. Working with HK Customer Service, they recommended going wit the then new medium-weight trigger return/rebound spring, which provided more weight/feedback during the pre-travel triggerpull, and a more seamless segue into and through the wall. I've termed it "V1.5" LEM. It provides a much more revolver-like tactile experience throughout the triggerpull, which is what I prefer.

https://i.imgur.com/st6mcF2h.jpg

Best, Jon

[OfficeCat]

As I've commented here in other threads, I've had excellent results with my P30L; it was initially a V1, but I really didn't like the lack of feedback in the long, seemingly weightless trigger pre-travel before hitting the wall. Working with HK Customer Service, they recommended going wit the then new medium-weight trigger return/rebound spring, which provided more weight/feedback during the pre-travel triggerpull, and a more seamless segue into and through the wall. I've termed it "V1.5" LEM. It provides a much more revolver-like tactile experience throughout the triggerpull, which is what I prefer.

https://i.imgur.com/st6mcF2h.jpg



Best, Jon

Endorsed. I've got the medium weight trigger return spring along with the light firing pin block spring in my P30 and P30SK and find this a lot more shootable than the original V1 configuration. Very conducive to the "rolling break," as the medium TRS lessens the difference between the stages, and the lighter firing pin block spring (which has a more subtle effect but is very easy to swap out) smooths the transition between the stages by lessening the little speed bump you can feel (if you go slow and look for it) when it engages. You still have the 2 stage effect, but it's much less noticeable if you're running it at any speed.

[Nick B]

How much work is involved installing the medium weight TRS ?

[HeavyDuty]

How much work is involved installing the medium weight TRS ?

Two minutes if you have the pliers.

[Exiledviking]

I wish HK offered the medium weight TRS for the P2000 and the USP pistols.

[Nick B]

Two minutes if you have the pliers.
Thanks HD. Now are the springs available anywhere ?

[OfficeCat]

How much work is involved installing the medium weight TRS ?

I'm not the most mechanically adept guy, but I managed it without too much difficulty. Do some searching on the HKpro forums; there are some old threads there with photos and discussion of various tips and tricks that I found vital. I won't say it was the easiest work I've ever done on a gun but it wasn't the hardest either. There are some projects that I've sworn I would never undertake again. I did this with my SK and when I got my full size P30 a couple of years later I didn't hesitate to do it again.

I think the difficulty was exaggerated a bit on the HKpro forums. Likewise, the consensus there is the special tool HK Parts sells for this (modified needle nose pliers) are pretty much essential and make it so much easier. I did it the first time without the tool and the second time with ut. I found that it did help a bit but wasn't anything magical. Maybe I just wasn't using it right. I'm not a tool guy.

On the other hand, the tip I found suggesting the use of little snippets from the applicator straw from a WD40 can or something similar to use as temporary extensions on the legs of the spring while putting it into place was damned near magic. If I had to choose only one "cheat" I'd skip the tool and go with the straw. But the tool didn't cost much and certainly wasn't useless.

[OfficeCat]

Two minutes if you have the pliers.

You are a better man than I. Anything involving springs inevitably takes more than 2 minutes for me as I need to rely on luck rather than skill. For me it was probably more like 20 minutes - 9 failed 2 minute attempts that ended with something popping out of place, concluding with one where everything stayed lined up. :o

[HeavyDuty]

Interesting - I’ve never used the coffee stirrers, only the knockoff pliers. The pliers are only used to hold the spring in location, but I can’t imagine not using them.

[HeavyDuty]

Thanks HD. Now are the springs available anywhere ?

I use the heavy TRS / light FPB combination, but I believe the only reliable place to get the medium springs is HKParts.net:

https://hkparts.net/product/p30-p30l-trigger-return-spring-v4-medium-weight-p16745.htm/

Here’s the pliers from them, too:

https://hkparts.net/product/trigger-return-spring-tool-for-all-hk-pistols-p16031.htm/

[Sig_Fiend]

The pliers pay dividends. Once you've changed the TRS maybe 2-3x, at that point it does legitimately become about a 2 minute affair.

Focus on the feel of depressing the TRS with the pliers while inserting it. When you have it in the right orientation, it has a feel of the spring cleanly compressing and the trigger pin slides right in without much effort.

Once you've gotten a feel for it, you can honestly do it by feel alone without even having to look at it much or over-analyze it.

[jeep45238]

How much work is involved installing the medium weight TRS ?

It's pretty darn simple once you've got a pair of needle-nose pliers that have been modified for this purpose. You can find them pre-modified for around $15 generally, and they're worth every penny in my opinion.