Beretta 92 slides-lighter is better?

[CraigS]

Wife and I have been shooting our EIIs for a long time now. About 5 years ago I started shooting idpa and put together a new M9A1 and I am generally in the middle of the overall results. I see a fair number of the CZ all steel guns and have shot a mag through a couple of them and the weight sure seems to help reduce muzzle rise. I have been thinking about the Beretta 92X Defensive but hard to justify the price. Recently idpa changed rules and now I can shoot w/ a weapon mounted light. So I am ready to try that next month. The extra weight has to help some, and the light is in the perfect place. Then I started thinking what about a Brig slide? Maybe I should go back to my old EII. But overall my impression is that I see more slide lightening for competition than going heavier. Wilson Berettas use a Brig slide but LTT uses a lighter Vertec slide. A Brig slide would make the gun heavier but I am not sure that adding weight to the slide is better. I think the trend is to make the slide lighter so there isn't so much weight moving back and forth. Do any of you have knowledge/thoughts on this question?

[shootist26]

I used to own a Compact L and I always thought it shot much better than my full size 92. The sights tracked noticeably better and I felt the slide cycled faster due to its shorter length and lighter weight. However I sold it for other reasons before I really vetted it in competition/training, so I'm really just going off intuition and feel here

[jbrimlow]

For recoil management, I would follow the maxim that "If it moves, make it lighter, if it doesn't move (much), make it heavier."

So, the following are usually good from a recoil mitigation perspective:
--lightening the slide
--adding a bull barrel
--heavier frame
--weaponlight
etc.

That said, I'm not sure which of the above slide options are going to make a noticeable improvement, mostly because I don't know what the weight difference is and where it's removed from. If the change is noticeable, you may find you prefer the heavier slide (or lighter frame, etc).

Lots of little things can matter if you're a proficient enough shooter to notice. I don't know a better way to find out than get to some testing though.

[Stony Lane]

Weight of 92 slides:
Compact- 11.0 0z.
Regular- 11.7
Vertec- 11.9
Brig. - 12.6
92XP Brig.- 12.7
LTT RDO (SRO) - 13.1

I can't tell much difference when shooting, maybe others can.
Ammo selection is much more of a factor than slide weight.

[CraigS]

Thanks guys. This is good info. This makes lots of sense to my brain,
"jbrimlow said For recoil management, I would follow the maxim that "If it moves, make it lighter, if it doesn't move (much), make it heavier."
Stony's weight chart is interesting.
Weight of 92 slides:
Compact- 11.0 0z.
Regular- 11.7
Vertec- 11.9
Brig. - 12.6
92XP Brig.- 12.7
LTT RDO (SRO) - 13.1
Only .7 oz difference between a Vertec and a Brig. Wife and I did some practicing today. I had put my Crimson Trace light/laser on my M9A1 and she had her EII. I only remembered I wanted to compare them as we were ready to leave. We each had a mag w/ 6 rnds remaining so I did 3 double taps w/ each gun. I think it would take some slow motion video to decide if there is a difference. There is probably more difference depending if I remember to really strengthen my weak hand grip or not, than there is between the two slides. Thanks for your insights.

[Suvorov]

My Elite is a softer shooting gun than my other guns, but I’m only shooting 9mm so it’s not that big of a deal. The slower cycling rate of the slide is also noticeable and it has more of a “shake weight” feel to it (I can sense the slide coming back and going forward) especially with lighter loads. As someone who is balls out at .25 splits I don’t think it will ever be an issue but I imagine some shooters might feel slowed down or not like the cadence.

I would think that a Brigadier slide on a frame with a mounted light would definitely make for a controllable gun and a good match setup. I wouldn’t however like to carry one on my hip for hours on end.

[JCN]

For recoil management, I would follow the maxim that "If it moves, make it lighter, if it doesn't move (much), make it heavier."


I’ll make the counterpoint that Gen 5 Glock 22 (40SW caliber) slides are heavier than 9mm to reduce recoil.

Sig P229 (40SW) slides are also heavier than 9mm slides.

My Shadow 2 with full weight slide was milder recoil than when I had a 2+ oz reduced weight slide.

With that in mind consider that if you have the same power cartridge and one slide is heavier it won’t slam back as quickly…

So paradoxically, by lightening the slide you could make it more violent.

YMMV.

My favorite vision timing to recoil to triggering is 0.15 splits.

Anything faster than that recoil wise doesn’t help me. When I shot an open gun that had 0.12 resonant splits it was too fast for my mechanics and I actually slowed down the slide (larger comp side ports) so I could time it better.

So too fast can be too fast….

[balance]

I’ll make the counterpoint that Gen 5 Glock 22 (40SW caliber) slides are heavier than 9mm to reduce recoil.

I was under the impression that manufacturers sometimes make the .40 slide heavier than the 9mm slide in order to control slide velocity while using the same weight recoil spring.

[GJM]

As I recall, Ernest Langdon told me he came full circle, from thinking the Brig 92 slide was better, to preferring a lighter slide, back to the heavier slide. That was all iron sights, and a dot might change the answer.

[JCN]

I was under the impression that manufacturers sometimes make the .40 slide heavier than the 9mm slide in order to control slide velocity while using the same weight recoil spring.

What is your impression of the difference between your statement and mine?

By the way, the heavier P229 40/357 slide also uses a heavier recoil spring than the lighter slide and spring 9mm.

The P229 is an uncaptured setup which means changing springs is easy. They wouldn’t spend $$ on making a different slide so they could use the same spring costing pennies. And they didn’t do that anyway…

Don’t know about the Gen 5 Glocks.

But a previous gen Glock 22 and 17 used the same spring with the same weight slide (eventually they went stiffer with the 40 RSA) so I wouldn’t necessarily attribute any intelligent design to slide weight and spring. It’s a “maybe” thing.

[Jared]

I’m not the best one to judge as I like em all. I think my favorite is the standard full size slide. But I’ve got an Inox Brigadier that I set up nicely that I shoot really well by my standards.

[MattyD380]

I’ve had a few compacts. I prefer the full size. The compacts shoot great, but a full size 92 just feels… right. To me anyway. A little softer. A little more stable. A little more of a satisfying whollop when the slide cycles. And, I mean, if you’re gonna get a big fat gun… get a big fat gun. I love the Beretta 92.

[balance]

What is your impression of the difference between your statement and mine?

I took your comment to mean that Glock intentionally made the slide heavier in order to reduce recoil. I'm more interested in the mechanics of things. Most times that I've heard this topic discussed, a lightened slide is used to reduce recoil/flip, so I thought that there may be another reason why Glock chose to make the slide heavier.


I’ll make the counterpoint that Gen 5 Glock 22 (40SW caliber) slides are heavier than 9mm to reduce recoil.

[JCN]

I took your comment to mean that Glock intentionally made the slide heavier in order to reduce recoil. I'm more interested in the mechanics of things. Most times that I've heard this topic discussed, a lightened slide is used to reduce recoil/flip, so I thought that there may be another reason why Glock chose to make the slide heavier.

Glock and Sig made slides heavier in higher recoiling calibers.

Nobody makes a higher caliber with a lighter slide to reduce recoil.

I think the “lightened slide to reduce muzzle flip” is an urban myth except when it comes to compensated guns.

I can’t think of any competition shooter with an uncompensated gun that chose to pick a lighter slide (which they surely can do by the rule set).

[Sero Sed Serio]

By the way, the heavier P229 40/357 slide also uses a heavier recoil spring than the lighter slide and spring 9mm.

The P229 is an uncaptured setup which means changing springs is easy. They wouldn’t spend $$ on making a different slide so they could use the same spring costing pennies. And they didn’t do that anyway…

I probably have more rounds through P229s than any other platform, but it was only recently did I shoot identical 9mm and .40 guns back-to-back in the same range session.

Obviously the .40 had more recoil, but the slide was noticeably slower, as well. With the 9 everything was lost in the recoil impulse: the gun went up, the gun came down. Going from the 9 to the 40, I could sense the different stages: the fun went up, the slide came back, the slide “bottomed out” (best way I can describe it), the gun came down, the slide came forward. It was almost like putting your audio book on 3/4 speed—not so bad that the narrator sounds drunk (if you’re ever bored on a road trip, this is an amusing distraction), but enough to slow everything down.

I recently picked up (virtually stole) a new/old stock P228 that I’m almost certainly going to keep vs. flipping for fun and profit, and if I do I’m looking forward to a range session of the P228 vs. P229 9mm vs. P229 .40. My working hypothesis is that the lighter slide P228 will feel the flattest due to gas cycling and lack of slide dip, and that the gun will snap back to where I want it to be without any bobble.

I was recently discussing with another member that I actually shoot the .40/.357 SIGs more accurately, likely because the added recoil forces me to slow down just a hair and not outrun my headlights. Not sure if this translates to heavier slides, as the flip side of the coin is that less muzzle dip = less sight picture disturbance. I suspect that the P228 will be the magic bullet for me/the SIG ecosystem for fast, accurate shooting, and likewise would spec out a non-Brig slide Beretta for an ideal variation of a 92/M9, if I could be king for a day.

[balance]

Glock and Sig made slides heavier in higher recoiling calibers.

Nobody makes a higher caliber with a lighter slide to reduce recoil.]

I understand this. Just looking at a Glock 20 and a Glock 21 slide side by side, you can tell how much more metal is in the Glock 20 slide, and I wouldn't put it past Glock to change the slide weight of the 22 to help with the issue they had years ago with weapon mounted lights which seemed to increase slide velocity, and had Glock making more powerful mag springs to push the rounds up the mag quicker.

I may have misunderstood what you were getting at when I first quoted you. I just didn't think it was out of line to question whether a manufacturer intentionally made a slide heavier in order to reduce recoil, on a thread where slide weight is being discussed.

[Bucky]

I can’t think of any competition shooter with an uncompensated gun that chose to pick a lighter slide (which they surely can do by the rule set).

While I prefer a heavier slide, I saw this all the time in USPSA limited division some years back. Maybe the fad died out, but it was quite the rage.

[JCN]

While I prefer a heavier slide, I saw this all the time in USPSA limited division some years back. Maybe the fad died out, but it was quite the rage.

So I think it’s an interesting proposition when a gun can be built from the ground up and designed differently to add more weight to the frame and reduce weight to the slide in order to reduce recoil. I think that’s where some of the discrepancy in understanding comes from?

Two cases in point:

Maxim 9 and Alien.

87824

Both designed with LOTS of weight in the frame and consequently able to use less mass in the slide.

But if lightening the slide didn’t come with concomitant increase in frame weight… different ball of wax.

[JCN]

Bucky

There’s also an interesting phenomenon depending on the skill level of the shooter so advice should be heavily contextualized.

If someone likes a fast slide but is splitting 0.25s, they’re catching it on multi oscillation, which is less predictable and ultimately slower.

It’s like someone saying they like a firmer ball for tennis but then hitting it on the second bounce each time.

Anything over a 0.20 split is a multi-oscillation shot.

So take recoil and timing advice from multi-oscillation shooters with big grains of salt.

Here’s a video of slow motion of my novice wife splitting multi-oscillation 0.27 splits versus sub-0.20 splits (peak 0.14).


https://youtu.be/hGq4sWy2yO0

So if someone wants a lighter slide so they get their oscillations tamed down faster so they’re more accurate at their normal 0.25 splits versus someone who wants a slower slide so they can see and time a perfect one bounce 0.15… there’s a big difference in the context and ultimate performance of the advice.

It’s like asking two golfers what degree loft do they want on their driver. It’s going to depend on the skill of the player.

I’ve shown this video before, but it’s an example of one bounce comfortable 0.15-0.16 splits with accuracy. It’s using a slower slide setup timed to that split speed.


https://youtu.be/1zknAzX2nr4

[Super77]

I'm under the impression that slide weight is dictated by slide velocity; you can't have it too fast or too slow. Manufacturers make the slide weight close to the middle of the acceptable range, but competition shooters seem to want it a little on the lighter end of the spectrum to improve the sights returning to target. It makes sense that the lighter the slide and heavier the frame, the less disruption you'll have when the slide moves. I've never heard of a reason the slide weight would depend on frame weight. I think you can just get the frame as heavy as possible and still stay within the rules. You might even get a small reliability bump when the frame doesn't leak energy by moving.

Guns with gas systems like the Laugo Alien can get away with a light slide because the gas system retards slide velocity.

JCN's write up on comped guns is very interesting, I had never considered those things.

[JCN]

My working hypothesis is that the lighter slide P228 will feel the flattest due to gas cycling and lack of slide dip, and that the gun will snap back to where I want it to be without any bobble.

Careful with the conclusions, though. Because slide dip is often a symptom of being oversprung (for ammo used) and can be tuned out with a few pound change in recoil spring weight.

So have to judge those two variables when comparing slides.

[JCN]

I'm under the impression that slide weight is dictated by slide velocity; you can't have it too fast or too slow. Manufacturers make the slide weight close to the middle of the acceptable range, but competition shooters seem to want it a little on the lighter end of the spectrum to improve the sights returning to target. It makes sense that the lighter the slide and heavier the frame, the less disruption you'll have when the slide moves. I've never heard of a reason the slide weight would depend on frame weight. I think you can just get the frame as heavy as possible and still stay within the rules. You might even get a small reliability bump when the frame doesn't leak energy by moving.

I’ll add some additional context.

Slide weight is often designed into a firearm based off the intended cartridge power.

Same thing with recoil spring weight.

Most duty firearms are set up for NATO power or +P diet.

Gamers are set up for minimum power factor 9mm ammo… which makes energy like a 380 ACP.

That’s why a lot of military / LEO guns don’t run well on stock springs with gamer ammo.

[pastaslinger]

I personally feel the brig slide tracks better with a 13# recoil spring and reduced weight hammer spring but the weight difference is not huge between the brig and vertec slides.

[CSW]

I recently got back into a Beretta;

A 92x RDO, full size.
Basically a Vertec. The recoil on the gun is absolutely flat, and comes back on target nicely.
The last time I was at the range there was a fella there with an X Centurion....that a nice shooting gun. I was able to shoot a magazine out of it, and thought that it may be a 'perfect' sized Beretta.
I did not run it fast.
Recoil and rise were perceived to be no different than my full size X.

[Stony Lane]

Weight of 92 slides:
Compact- 11.0 0z.
Regular- 11.7
Vertec- 11.9
Brig. - 12.6
92XP Brig.- 12.7
LTT RDO (SRO) - 13.1

I can't tell much difference when shooting, maybe others can.
Ammo selection is much more of a factor than slide weight.

92X Perfromance DEFENSIVE slide:
11.4 OZ.

[OlongJohnson]

Careful with the conclusions, though. Because slide dip is often a symptom of being oversprung (for ammo used) and can be tuned out with a few pound change in recoil spring weight.

So have to judge those two variables when comparing slides.

I thought the spring was chosen to absorb and store most of the KE imparted to the slide so it bumps into the frame with only enough extra energy to ensure it travels all the way back even when dirty, etc. Then that stored energy drives the slide back forward. Tuning to minimize slide dip and shooting more powerful loads could lead to excess battering.

In a 1911, the firing pin stop is a changeable part and is tuneable. Changing the radius at the bottom changes its leverage over the hammer, and thus the amount of force that is required to cock the hammer. So it makes a huge difference in the KE imparted to the slide versus to the whole gun.

[JCN]

I thought the spring was chosen to absorb and store most of the KE imparted to the slide so it bumps into the frame with only enough extra energy to ensure it travels all the way back even when dirty, etc. Then that stored energy drives the slide back forward. Tuning to minimize slide dip and shooting more powerful loads could lead to excess battering.

I kind of thought modern recoil springs had way less thought and care put into them and often use a “one size fits none” strategy where manufacturers pick something middle ground that will function and protect their guns for 100k rounds even if it means they’re oversprung for shooting.

Watching the evolution of iterations of Glock RSAs over calibers and generations might have made me jaded though.

All I know is that I want a gun to shoot well and I’d rather have a gun that shoots well for 30k rounds than one that shoots not as well for 100k…

[CSW]

I'm going to have to weigh the slide on this, this afternoon.

Recently back from Langdon. A 92x Centurion, RDO cut, and a RM04.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Interested to hear how they compare in performance CSW, thinking about getting an LTT Centurion or Compact myself.

Based on the chart Im guessing it will weigh just a bit more than an iron sighted full length slide, and so may recoil like a full size? On the other hand, you also have the shorter recoil spring.

[CSW]

Interested to hear how they compare in performance CSW, thinking about getting an LTT Centurion or Compact myself.

Based on the chart Im guessing it will weigh just a bit more than an iron sighted full length slide, and so may recoil like a full size? On the other hand, you also have the shorter recoil spring.

I'll put it on the scale in a bit, but honestly, I think that the recoil impulse is about the same for the 92X full size, and the centurion.
In this Centurion, I put the Wilson 12.5 recoil spring and steel guide rod.

Langdon did the RDO cut, barrel and TJIAB.
It's a very flat recoil, and while I'm still learning how to follow the dot, it's as easy to follow as a FO front sight.

[Hstanton1]

Been looking at picking up another beretta real hard lately, and from what I can tell, WC brig tacs are cheaper and easier to find than LTT guns are at the moment.

I’m sure it’s been addressed here before, but what are the preferred spring rates for brig slide guns?

[CSW]

Weighed the slides last night :
Full size 92x RDO was 11.7
The Centurion with the Langdon cut and plate, and the RM04 was 12.3.

[TCinVA]

But overall my impression is that I see more slide lightening for competition than going heavier.

Where the weight/mass is matters. Weight on the reciprocating slide is more energy that gets transferred to the shooter when the slide stops. A CZ-75 style design has a relatively small slide as a percentage of total mass, and then with the steel frame that metric goes even more in favor of the frame.

Open bolt SMG's tend to have very heavy bolts because they're blowback designs. The movement of that much weight back and forth makes them more difficult to control than something like an MP5 which tends to have a much lighter bolt that locks.

Spring weights can also be a factor. Too little lets the slide run too fast and increases the impact when the slide goes to the rear, which also has a tendency to rob the slide of energy going forward. This results in more stoppages. Too much spring weight stops the slide from moving all the way to the rear and causes it to slam forward disrupting sights as the gun is supposed to be settling.



Wilson Berettas use a Brig slide but LTT uses a lighter Vertec slide. A Brig slide would make the gun heavier but I am not sure that adding weight to the slide is better. I think the trend is to make the slide lighter so there isn't so much weight moving back and forth. Do any of you have knowledge/thoughts on this question?

Wilson's Beretta is Wilson's basic design requirements with some consultation from Langdon. LTT's gun is Langdon's own spec based on what Beretta had available. Langdon himself prefers the lighter slide because it reduces muzzle flip.

You have to be pretty skilled and familiar with Berettas to note a difference...or if you have the chance to shoot both setups back to back you'll notice a slight difference. In my experience the LTT gun tends to track a little bit flatter.

The brig design evolved from USBP's .40 cal adventures and slide cracking on the M9 pistol. Slides breaking on the M9 tended to be the result of not changing the recoil spring and changing/fitting the locking block at sane intervals. The USBP issues were the result of .40 being a chambering that the 92 series pistol was just never meant to deal with.

In 9mm on a gun that's maintained, you're exceptionally unlikely to ever crack a 92's slide. If you shoot it with no lubrication on the locking block (people don't know how to lube handguns anyway, but Berettas especially) and never change the recoil spring or locking block, you eventually will. Theoretically the brig slide will resist cracking at the area cut out for the locking block (which is where the slide cracks happen) "better" and go for a longer round count if you abuse the shit out of it, but I've never seen any numbers put to that to a quantifiable difference.

At the time I bought the Wilson gun because it was the best 92 spec I'd seen from Beretta in years.

I bought an LTT gun when they introduced the dot option. I think I was one of the first few to order one when that went live...and that was mainly because I wanted to try something other than a Glock with a dot.

[TCinVA]

I’m sure it’s been addressed here before, but what are the preferred spring rates for brig slide guns?

Mine runs reliably with the Wilson Combat flatwire springs at the factory weight.

On the LTT gun I run the roundwire chrome silicon spring that came in the gun...I believe it's 13 pounds.

[Hstanton1]

Mine runs reliably with the Wilson Combat flatwire springs at the factory weight.

On the LTT gun I run the roundwire chrome silicon spring that came in the gun...I believe it's 13 pounds.

Thank you. Have you played around with spring rates in the brig tac at all?

[TCinVA]

Thank you. Have you played around with spring rates in the brig tac at all?

No...I never felt adventurous enough to mess with different spring rates on the Wilson gun.

[Hstanton1]

No...I never felt adventurous enough to mess with different spring rates on the Wilson gun.

Someone here, Les Kismartoni I think, has talked about setting up spring rates on these guns for less slide bounce. Since brig tacs are currently more available and generally cheaper than LTT guns, I figured I might want to mess with that setup after I pick up a brig tac. Honestly, I’m probably overthinking it though. I rarely shoot faster than .25 splits anyways.

[LHS]

The Brig slide on specialty Beretta guns goes back to the original 92G Elite and the 92G-SD in the late 90s/early 00s. It wasn't chosen due to the increased mass/weight, but rather it was the only available slide option (at the time) with a dovetailed front sight that would let competitors choose various options. At the time, the Vertec slide didn't exist. Once the Vertec came out, and offered the original slide profile with a dovetailed front sight, it became the option of choice IMHO. There's certainly nothing wrong with the Brig slide if that's your fancy, but I'd rather not have the extra mass, personally.

[Sal Picante]

Wait: Beretta side weight matters?

Man... I wish I would've known this years ago...

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