Handheld light question with reloads

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We are going to do a low light stage with small carry guns. Thus, WMLs are probably not in play. I don't have a small gun with a light rail anyway. You might wear a hat mounted light. I think I have one somewhere but I don't go around town with such. I've practiced with and done some classes with handhelds but never dealt with this. So this might be naive. What do you do with the handheld with you reload?

No prison wallet suggestions. It just never came up in my classes.

[Default.mp3]

Depends on the size of the light, I would wager.

I personally have my handhelds on a lanyard, so I can just let go if need be. The most foolproof way is probably to just stow the light in your armpit while you do the reload; most folks will argue for a bezel forward stow, so that you're not blinding everyone behind you and still providing some lighting forward of you. If the light is small enough, you can also simply put it somewhere else in your hand, as you would a magazine during a reload with retention; for me, my flashlight would go between the ring finger and the pinkie, giving me plenty of hand space to do the reload. I've seen some folks just stick the light into their mouth for this, but that's rather unsanitary if just doing it for a match, especially in an indoor range, and also has the possibility of you fucking up your teeth if you crunch down on it if startled.

[Clusterfrack]

Yes, as Default.mp3 said: lanyard / finger loop. But, it's possible to reload with the light in hand. It just takes some practice, like a reload with retention.

[sickeness]

Noner's got you covered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7FMj6kbik

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks. Lanyard! Now I was going to shoot a 642 so, the semi mag changes aren't relevant for this one. Lanyard seem reasonable. So I do have Surefire with one - should have thought of that. I pick it up after reading this and practice. letting the light hang on it. It proceeds to fall off the lanyard. Need a better one would seem!

Problem solved. The Surefire I used had a clip such that when the light hung, the lanyard slipped under the clip. Why this light had a lanyard that could do that, I have no idea. So returning to the collection of Surefires, I have one that allows for bezel up or down with its clip. thus, bezel down clip will hold the lanyard in a position that doesn't let it slip out. Plus a touch of Gorilla tap will block a slip. Not elegant. I should look for a better lanyard but that's it for now.

[Clusterfrack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/39f55a9c5bd3624fc795b4b4aa5a355b.jpg

[Glenn E. Meyer]

PS - since the 642 has a CT grip, I might see if there is enough ambient light to get by. I doubt we will be plunged into total darkness as that would be a touch dangerous for obvious reasons. I've done ambient dim light before.

Sidebar on that - before I had my cataracts removed, I found in a run in a dimly lit shoothouse, I couldn't see anything at all. I went right by a bad guy in black with a black gun on his chest. Failed that one.

[Clusterfrack]

...I might see if there is enough ambient light to get by. I doubt we will be plunged into total darkness as that would be a touch dangerous for obvious reasons. I've done ambient dim light before.

I remember shooting a dark house stage the WA IDPA championship at least 10 years ago. I think I was the first shooter other than staff to run the stage, and the SOs were expecting things to happen a certain way--that was not what I did. I had prepared for the stage by closing my eyes and covering my face with my hands to let my eyes adjust. I ran the stage fairly quickly. I don't think I even used a light. When I emerged at the far side, there were no SOs in sight and I could hear yelling. The guy with the timer didn't record my last shots, so I got a re-shoot.

[camsdaddy]

I remember shooting a dark house stage the WA IDPA championship at least 10 years ago. I think I was the first shooter other than staff to run the stage, and the SOs were expecting things to happen a certain way--that was not what I did. I had prepared for the stage by closing my eyes and covering my face with my hands to let my eyes adjust. I ran the stage fairly quickly. I don't think I even used a light. When I emerged at the far side, there were no SOs in sight and I could hear yelling. The guy with the timer didn't record my last shots, so I got a re-shoot.

I read pirates wore a patch for this very reason. They would change the patch to the other eye when going into the dark areas of the boat. Apparently this prevented them from being attacked in the dark as one eye was already adjusted to the darkness.

[Jason M]

I use the same theory as depicted in the video. The technique is just a little different. I only roll my light hand index finger over the end cap of the light and used the index finger and thumb to extract and change magazines. It works consistently and is simple to learn and maintain.

[Andy in NH]

Noner's got you covered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j7FMj6kbik

I use a light with an O ring on it, but I like Noner's method; something else to practice.

87010

[Erick Gelhaus]

I prefer the rubber O ring & belt clip combo that I got from Raven, it's on my work & not work lights.

If I'm not using either of those lights, pinning it against your body & working the pinkie around behind it works well (you can carry the light that way to begin with) or rolling it down to the bottoms of the fingers & trapping it there the thumb works too. Just depends on whether you need the thumb or not.

[KevH]

I've used the old Rogers-Surefire Method for twenty years using a Surefire light. It seems awkward at first, but once you master it, you really master it and it's easy. I realize with the rise of WML it's becoming a lost technique. I pinch between my index and middle fingers and actuate the tailcap with the meaty base of my thumb.

I messed with a lanyard for a while, but found it incredibly cumbersome. When I need to draw a gun and light simultaneously from my duty belt, I need to do it right now. I don't have time to slip a lanyard on my hand or wrist. I also found a light dangling form the lanyard, no matter how tightly it was cinched, to get in my way. I briefly tried the o-ring and Thyrm rings and found it only a moderate improvement.

Since I'm already pinching the light between my fingers, I just leave it there while executing reloads. I spent a bunch of time practicing it dry in the beginning. I've never bobbled a reload nor dropped the light doing this and it's become second nature, even under quite a bit of stress.

[CraigS]

I shoot 2 night matches each fall. My experience is I would not count on ambient light being sufficient. I have a weapon mounted light/laser from CT which works great. But one of the shooters I have a lot of respect for uses a hand held w/ interesting mods. First it is a very short light. He said he does that so that when holding it between his off hand fingers it has a lot less tendency to sag from gravity. Second he has two sets of 3 o-rings on it. One triple o-ring set is right at the back end of the light. This set keeps the light from wiggling out from between his fingers. The other triple o-ring set is just forward enough that his fingers fit between the two o-ring sets. The forward set locks the light from wiggling the other direction. Since it is a small light w/ a small battery he uses a different light between shooting stages for reloads, walking, etc. And he puts in a new battery for each match.

[Andy T]

Lanyard is definitely preferable, but during one low light training we were also taught to hold the light in the mouth during reloads.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Depends on how your hand interfaces with the light.
I use the Raven clip and O-ring on my 6P, and Pannone's technique with the SL PT1L-1AA.

[DDTSGM]

I've used the old Rogers-Surefire Method for twenty years using a Surefire light. It seems awkward at first, but once you master it, you really master it and it's easy. I realize with the rise of WML it's becoming a lost technique. I pinch between my index and middle fingers and actuate the tailcap with the meaty base of my thumb.

I messed with a lanyard for a while, but found it incredibly cumbersome. When I need to draw a gun and light simultaneously from my duty belt, I need to do it right now. I don't have time to slip a lanyard on my hand or wrist. I also found a light dangling form the lanyard, no matter how tightly it was cinched, to get in my way. I briefly tried the o-ring and Thyrm rings and found it only a moderate improvement.

Since I'm already pinching the light between my fingers, I just leave it there while executing reloads. I spent a bunch of time practicing it dry in the beginning. I've never bobbled a reload nor dropped the light doing this and it's become second nature, even under quite a bit of stress.

When you need to draw a gun and light simultaneously you will really appreciate a WML.

We did the introduction to flashlight techniques during our building search block, which was before our dimlight range training. We introduced Rogers/Syringe, Harries and Chapman by curriculum, and most of us also added neck index and the old FBI. They all have advantages and disadvantages, based on shooter's hand size, flashlight size and style, plus the dexterity of the shooter.

After all is said and done, Harries is my preferred 'married hands' technique. Even though Harries is pretty much limited to tail cap lights (as does Rogers) it positions the light in the hand as most officers would be holding the light when checking documents, etc.

Regardless of technique used, our range training involved grounding the light on the chest/sternum, drawing the pistol to whatever you call the muzzle level and down range position and then assuming the flashlight ready position.

For drawing both light and pistol at same time I prefer drawing to neck index and then transitioning to another technique if warranted. What we called drop drills invariably ended with the shooter firing from some form of neck index.

In its pure form, Harries is essentially a one-handed technique with the back of the hands together and the butt of the pistol resting somewhat on the support wrist/forearm -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSglqG_PLsI

You can get additional support and recoil control by simply raising the support elbow and sliding the support forearm forward allowing the hand and wrist to slide up the front of your master hand. In this position most folks can feel the knuckles of their master hand on the wrist joint. Do kind of a push-pull between the two arms and you can improve recoil control to some degree, IMO, better than the pure Harries.

As for the subject of reloads with flashlights, I don't normally agree with retained mag reloads as they interject a degree of complexity that, for most shooters, is likely to degrade under stress. If you need to reload, job one is to reload, retaining the mag is secondary. If need be, you can take a knee, reload, then pick up the mag.

I understand that some course of fire may require a retained mag reload, in that case, with the Harries hold, I can use my thumb, index and middle finger to draw the new mag, and then grasp the old mag with my pinkie.

JMO, hope it is of some use to someone.

[Default.mp3]

In its pure form, Harries is essentially a one-handed technique with the back of the hands together and the butt of the pistol resting somewhat on the support wrist/forearm -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSglqG_PLsI

You can get additional support and recoil control by simply raising the support elbow and sliding the support forearm forward allowing the hand and wrist to slide up the front of your master hand. In this position most folks can feel the knuckles of their master hand on the wrist joint. Do kind of a push-pull between the two arms and you can improve recoil control to some degree, IMO, better than the pure Harries.FWIW, when I trained with Dagga Boy, he stated that when he was taught by Harries, the isometric tension was the integral part of the position, and that without the application of isometric tension, one wasn't actually utilizing the Harries.

[Donny B]

1. Harrie's technique. 2. turn the light off. 3a. sidestep, kneel, or seek cover. 3b. perform mag exchange. 4. Do whatever it takes to not get shot.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Thanks for all the replies and cues to technique. Now, for this particular match - I decided to shoot my 642 with a CT grip. I was worried about speed loader reload and managing the light. I always wear a ball cap so I decided to get a cap clip on LED which is fairly bright. That will illuminated my hands, gun and speed loaders. Of course, this would get me killed on the street but it's game. Also, the light might come in useful for other nightly adventures.

Will have a hand held also as backup. See how this comes up. 12 rounds for the stage. So it's two reloads as we start loaded.

[Andy in NH]

Thanks for all the replies and cues to technique. Now, for this particular match - I decided to shoot my 642 with a CT grip. I was worried about speed loader reload and managing the light. I always wear a ball cap so I decided to get a cap clip on LED which is fairly bright. That will illuminated my hands, gun and speed loaders. Of course, this would get me killed on the street but it's game. Also, the light might come in useful for other nightly adventures.

Will have a hand held also as backup. See how this comes up. 12 rounds for the stage. So it's two reloads as we start loaded.

I used a cap clip LED during night matches to reset, score, and paste targets at night matches.

It kept my hands free to accomplish those tasks.

[NH Shooter]

Lanyard on all lights.

This one is my EDC that I deploy with an ice pick grip using the Harries technique (750 lumens/19,000 candela);

https://i.ibb.co/3hrkF1y/md3lego-4.jpg



This one is used with a syringe grip/Rogers-SureFire technique, which allows most of a standard two-hand hold of the pistol (650 lumens, 70,000 candela);

https://i.ibb.co/NT12JWf/3PZ-1.jpg



Both are equipped with twisty tailcaps for momentary-only operation, which IMO is mandatory for a defensive use light. The O-ring prevents unintended tightening of the tailcap, but with a hard two-hand twist constant-on is still available if needed.

Being able to simply let go of the light and have it turn off immediately (and without fail) is a huge advantage: fast, foolproof and instantly frees both hands while fully retaining the light. To re-engage I bring the support hand to my chest where I trap the light and re-establish grip.

The lanyards are attached to the light with a thin split ring which allows the lanyard to break free if needed.

If you have manly-sized hands you can learn to retain the light in your hand while doing mag changes, malfunction clearings, etc. but it takes practice. Under stress there's no guarantee the light is NOT going to be dropped. Add wet hands, gloves, etc. and it becomes even more fumble-prone.

I remain a staunch advocate of setting up a handheld light specifically for defensive use with a pistol. Single output, momentary-only operation, robust construction and a lanyard are the key features.