Gunsafes

[JConn]

I'm about ready to put down some money on my first gun safe. I was wondering if anyone here has any recommendations or warnings about certain brands. I cannot afford to drop 10-20000 on a real high grade safe. I'm just looking at a cannon/liberty/patriot safe in the $2-3000 range. Are some a better value than others, are some noticably higher quality and worth a higher price? Do some rust and fall apart after you breath on them? Stuff like that. Thanks guys (and gals).

[JV_]

If you want to see some in-person, check out VA Safe and Lock.

Virginia Safe & Lock Service
5528 Port Royal Road
Springfield, Virginia 22151
Telephone: 703-503-5200

[RoyGBiv]

Combination locks or biometric, not keys..... Keys get lost... DAMHIK. :o

[LHS]

I'm a fan on American Security (Amsec). I bought one several years ago, and it's put together better than my old Liberty (better welds, more solid lockup, more durable lock)

[Odin Bravo One]

I found that you can end up paying a lot of extra money for features that may or may not help you at all, or you may not want or need.

Active bolts, passive bolts. Dial vs. Touchpad. 45 min of fire at 1500 degrees, or an hour at 1300 degrees. Or 90 minutes at 1400? It made my head spin as I tried to sort out actual protection vs. marketing.

I thought long and hard about the fire protection, and called and spoke to a guy who lost his entire collection in a house fire. His safe, like mine, was located in the center of his house. No one was home at the time of the fire. The house was a total loss. His safe would have had to have been rated for 1800+ (or more) for about 5 hours to have any hope of doing any good. Fortunately, no one was hurt. What he lost was just "stuff" and mostly replaceable.

As far as the active and passive bolt protection and numbers of each, if someone has the time, and wants in............they are going to get in unless you are at the super high end, high dollar, where you are not wanting to go. For comparable safes by Cannon, Browning, Liberty, etc., I found the prices to be competitive at some stores, and way, way off at others. (Talking about advertised price, not good old boy or crack deal). Similar features, and sometimes similar pricing, but other times not even close. This was mostly the case with retail stores such as BPS, Cabela's, and LGS's.

When I started the side by side comparisons on the web, Liberty really jumped out at me because of price. They came in on average, under the other big names for safes of similar size and features. I am lucky in that I have a local Liberty shop. All the guy sells is Liberty safes. He also came in at about $300 under the MSRP/Advertised prices in their catalog, and took another 15% off for LEO/MIL/EMS. Being local, I did not have to pay for delivery.......just a couple of buddies, a truck, and a case of beer with some pizza's. That was a HUGE selling point for me. I paid $600 under retail for my first safe, and nearly $750 under on the second.

I bought both of my safes from the local guy, and couldn't be happier with the quality of the product Liberty provides. I touched on my opinion/decision in terms of the fire ratings, so it really became a "nice to have" rather than a "must have XYZ protection". The first safe was a dial lock, which I liked for the key lock in the dial. This enabled me to lock the safe, then lock the dial with a key. I was also concerned about an electronic lock losing battery power and having a perma-locked safe. Another concept I liked about the key lock dial was I could take the key with me when I left town, thus making it impossible for someone at home to be coerced to open it. They flat out did not have the capability. That safe was also stashed in a coat closet. The closet was disassembled to get the safe in, then reassembled around the safe after installation. You needed a tow truck and crash through the front half of the house to yank it out. But........with enough time, anyone with the will could have broken into it.

That first safe, which performed well for me, and met my needs was the Colonial 23. http://www.libertysafe.com/safe-colonial-safes-ps-7.html?tab=sizes

My second safe, I needed to grow, so I was looking for most room for the buck, without going too overboard. I knew the closet idea was out, as I don't have any closets big enough for a larger than what I already had safe. I also decided I wanted an electronic lock. I was in and out of the safe often enough that I decided the ease of opening outweighed my perceived need to prevent coercion. Thinking back to my buddy who lost it all...........it is just stuff. They can have it if it comes down to threats and coercion. I wanted an in-door panel built in, not an aftermarket/afterthought, so I sought out a model with that feature. (I had added a nylon coated wire door accessory to the Colonial, and while functional, was pretty ghetto). I also wanted some form of light inside, as well as a plug to use a dehumidifier. I used a plug and play dehumidifier pack in the Colonial, and it worked (kind of), but every time I opened the safe, it indicated it needed to be plugged back in. Not terribly convenient or efficient.

Like you, I hit up the boards for some info, and one of our members was kind enough to zap me some real pictures, with other objects nearby so I could visualize the size and put it in perspective. I ended up with the Liberty FatBoy. http://www.libertysafe.com/safe-colonial-safes-ps-7.html?tab=sizes

Now, the Colonial 23 advertised 23 long guns. But keep in mind, this means 23 slick, standard profile rifles. No optics. No custom stocks. No pistol grip AR's. FatBoy says 64 guns in that configuration. And I believe them. But how many of us have those guns? Sure we have a few that are slick like that, but we also have our AR's, scoped hunting rifle, custom stock this, Red Dot sight that.

Still, I was easily able to store nearly 30 items in the safe, about 50/50 long guns to pistols in the Colonial 23.

The FatBoy gave me a few more options for configuration, which I found nice. I use the tall side (right) with the top shelf cut out for the long guns. The cut out is nice so I can fit my long barreled shotguns through, as well as one long barreled rifle. Under the long guns on that side, I store some high performance ammo, as well as my fixed blade knives that are not otherwise on gear.

The left side is for SBR's, SBS's, but also serves well for many other non-NFA "Assault Rifles" with the use of the "Rifle Rod". http://www.libertysafe.com/accessories.php
Not quite as sturdy as a rack, but it keeps the guns still, and easily accessible. It also gave me more room on the right side for the guns that had to fit over there due to length. Depending on if the inventory is 100%, I can sometimes get an 8lb keg of powder in there as well.

Because the right side rifles take up that side, my middle shelf only gives me half of the safe to work with, but I found a carousel gun rack for the pistols to work nicely. In addition to the eight pistols it holds, there are 10 slots inside the door for pistols. When I ran out of room there, a 6 pistol nylon coated wire rack on the top shelf picked up the slack. Those are not super easy to get to, or put away, but they are still accessible with a little twisting and turning. And I still have plenty of room for accessories such as WML's, HHL's, laser's, etc. My door accessory also has some full size zippered pouches where I can keep documents such as my binder with all NFA Stamps, Will, Power of Attorney, Life Insurance Policy. And I use one to hold suppressors. There are other smaller zippered pouches for Baton, Handcuff's, folding knives, whatever.

All told, I have about 60 items in the safe, + 30 knives, + approx. 600 rounds of high performance ammunition, + Goldenrod dehumidifier (plugged into the wall outlet 24/7)+ about 10-12 WML's, 5 HHL's, 2 lasers, and a custom leather cowboy action rig, and misc. accessories that I don't want sitting in my non-climate controlled garage.

If you can, like JV mentioned..............go look. I kept a picture of my entire inventory laid out on the floor handy as I window shopped for safes, trying to keep in mind that it is a high dollar item, and I will want/need room to grow, and keeping that picture to helped visualize how much room I am taking up. If you can look at the various brands in one location, so much the better. It will give you a better feel for what you are really paying for.

Remember, given enough time...........any residential safe can be breached. And if a fire engulfs your home, do you really think 60 minutes of protection is going to save your precious H&H double rifle more than the 45 min will? A decision only you can make for yourself, but think about it before the sales pitches start.

I am very happy with the value, and performance of my Liberty safe. I am biased. And I only have considerable first hand experience with the Liberty brand, so take my comments with the proverbial grain of salt. But for the money, Liberty will always be the first place I look when it is time to upgrade again.

Oh look..............it's about that time!

Good luck.

[jstyer]

Excellent write up Sean. And coming from someone who used to sell safes... I say Liberty all the way.

[secondstoryguy]

There are a lot of good options as far as Gunsafes go. The only thing I can add is DO NOT get an electronic safe lock(unless you have the need for multiple combinations or audit capability). Electronic safe locks are unreliable and will eventually fail. How do I know? I was a locksmith/safe-and-vault tech for about 6 years.

[LHS]

Maybe it's just my sample of 1, but I wasn't impressed at all with my Liberty safe. I got one of the shorter safes to store my pistols while I lived in my college apartment, and at the time I knew nothing about safes. When I started researching larger safes to store my long guns, I started looking more closely at the little Liberty. The back panel is just spot-welded on, you could easily wedge a crowbar in the gap and go to work. Also, the dial lock's housing has grown loose in its mount, so I had to paint on a witness mark to line it up prior to spinning in the combination, otherwise it won't work. I'm about to seal it in place with some silicone caulk to keep it from loosening any further. For $600 or so (ten years ago), it was hardly the best deal, and I kick myself at buying without proper research. But, I've learned from that mistake.

[peterb]

Just a comment on fires: The trend in the fire service is to decrease the number of aggressive interior attacks in favor of more defensive "surround and drown" tactics unless there's a life threat. The problem is that newer construction techniques(prefab wood trusses, engineered lumber joists, etc.) make structural collapses more likely and less predictable, and no good officer puts his guys in that situation without a compelling reason.

If you think fire is a real threat, consider a residential sprinkler system, or at least an alarm system that gives the fire department a fighting chance to get there in time to stop a fire.

Videos:http://www.usfa.fema.gov/fireservice/research/dsn/dry_tree.shtm
(also good to show near Christmas)

[Odin Bravo One]

Or it could be that the two I got were exceptional, and your shitty safe is the norm?

My experience is limited to only two specimens. Saying that I have twice as much experience as you in terms of Liberty safes, while technically true, would be pretty weak chili.

Though it has been my experience with man portable safes, the smaller they go, the less concerned the makers seem to be with security. I have only owned Liberty, but I have broken into all makes and models from around the world. The little file cabinet sized safes were always a breeze. The lock box types like Sentry (like the one my nightstand gun resides in) are hardly a speed bump.

But when we get down to it, the dead bolt and lock on my front door is only a solid kick from being defeated. A piece of ceramic from a spark plug gets me in through the window. Then I have as much time as I want to work on the safe, regardless of make, model, or marketing. There are certain illusions we allow ourselves to believe. Physical security of premises is a very common one.

[Ray Keith]

I have an American Security BF series with the standard combination lock. I'm very pleased with it. Buy bigger than you would ever think you need.

[JHC]

Or it could be that the two I got were exceptional, and your shitty safe is the norm?

My experience is limited to only two specimens. Saying that I have twice as much experience as you in terms of Liberty safes, while technically true, would be pretty weak chili.

Though it has been my experience with man portable safes, the smaller they go, the less concerned the makers seem to be with security. I have only owned Liberty, but I have broken into all makes and models from around the world. The little file cabinet sized safes were always a breeze. The lock box types like Sentry (like the one my nightstand gun resides in) are hardly a speed bump.

But when we get down to it, the dead bolt and lock on my front door is only a solid kick from being defeated. A piece of ceramic from a spark plug gets me in through the window. Then I have as much time as I want to work on the safe, regardless of make, model, or marketing. There are certain illusions we allow ourselves to believe. Physical security of premises is a very common one.

I'm in the market for a safe or something like a safe and I'm very conscious of the objective being to thwart the in and out in one minute burglars in a rush vs really serious types that will break out a torch or something. So much so that I'm considering contractor truck bed tool boxes and conventional drawer tool chests as they'd be cheaper, easier to move around when empty but still too heavy to man handle out when loaded down with guns and ammo.

[JV_]

FWIW: Scoped rifles, and a lot of other regular guns, take 1.5-2x the amount of space the safe mfr allotted per gun.

[LOKNLOD]

I ended up with two smaller smaller safes. I think each is a 14 or 16 gun safe. Now, in some ways, that is a pain in the butt, because it means I've got to remember what's stored where, and two combinations, but it has some positive benefits as well. The two smaller safes were small enough I was able to haul and get them both into a walk-in closet, by myself, although not without some substantial effort. Still, I didn't need any help, and I didn't have to do any remodeling to make them fit. By being able to squeeze them into a tighter spot, it makes it harder to get leverage on them, to pry on the door or knock them over (I did anchor them to the concrete slab as well). Having two doubles the time it takes to get everything I've got. Also, together they were still less expensive than buying one bigger safe of similar specs.

[KeeFus]

Honestly, fot the money the Liberty Fat Boy or the Fat Boy Jr. is a good safe. If I ever buy another I'll buy the Fat Boy, or something close to it. I've had a Liberty for 10 years or so and have had zero issues with it. If I had my rathers I'd get a touch key over the combination/key combo.

When it comes to the security of the contents of what is inside your safe, my experience has taught me that it will only delay a determined person for only so long...and I've seen quite a few safes cracked over my career. Buying some high end safe that promises to stop such a person is, in my opinion, wasted money.

http://www.libertysafe.com/safe-fatboy-jr-gun-safes-ps-10.html

[JConn]

Wow thanks for everyone for the replies. It is so hard to sort out what is marketing and what is fact when it comes to these safes. It seems pretty much impossible. I've got a place down the road from me that sells liberty and that seems to come with high praise from most here. Essentially it seems like since fire protection doesn't really matter too much, and a safe cracker or dude with pry bar could get in if they wanted to, that big is essentially the only important thing in mid range safes. Why go with a liberty as opposed to the dicks sporting goods or Costco brand el cheapo safes?

[Odin Bravo One]

Why go with a liberty as opposed to the dicks sporting goods or Costco brand el cheapo safes?


Your guns, your investment. You have to decide what is right for you.

ETA:

No one is breaking into either of my Liberty safes with a pry bar. They will need a torch and other serious cutting tools.

Stack-On, on the other hand is a roto-zip or pocket exothermic torch away from having no lock, or no doors.

Safe-crackers are not out doing residential burglaries.

Like anything else, you get what you pay for............ to an extent. And there is compromise between protection and affordability. With most of the safes in the price range you listed originally, I think you will find that there are lots of marketing gimmicks that sound like justification for charging more money, when in practical reality, they are simply gimmicks to get you to pay more. Sorting out the actual benefits to hype is how to best determine which brand/model best suits your needs.

[HCM]

There are a lot of good options as far as Gunsafes go. The only thing I can add is DO NOT get an electronic safe lock(unless you have the need for multiple combinations or audit capability). Electronic safe locks are unreliable and will eventually fail. How do I know? I was a locksmith/safe-and-vault tech for about 6 years.

Second story guy:

I am thinking of going the electronic route on a new safe because I am in and out of my safe daily.

Looking at Browning or Liberty / Cabelas.

Question: At work, we have safes with a plain dial and an LED window for the numbers. No batteries, you spin the dial a few times to generate electricity and the numbers appear, allowing you to to do the combo.

They are quicker and easier than a traditional dial because the numbers are easier to see and if you miss your number you can just continue till you reach the number again.They've been pretty reliable in my experience.

Is this an option on Commercial gun safes or are they cost prohibitive?

[JConn]

Your guns, your investment. You have to decide what is right for you.

ETA:

No one is breaking into either of my Liberty safes with a pry bar. They will need a torch and other serious cutting tools.

Stack-On, on the other hand is a roto-zip or pocket exothermic torch away from having no lock, or no doors.

Safe-crackers are not out doing residential burglaries.

Like anything else, you get what you pay for............ to an extent. And there is compromise between protection and affordability. With most of the safes in the price range you listed originally, I think you will find that there are lots of marketing gimmicks that sound like justification for charging more money, when in practical reality, they are simply gimmicks to get you to pay more. Sorting out the actual benefits to hype is how to best determine which brand/model best suits your needs.

I'm not looking to go bargain basement, but I just wanted to see what responses that would generate. I think these liberty safes will be where I go. Now I just need to try and not drill into a water line when I mount the thing.

[Fly320s]

If this was mentioned, I missed it.

One good way to increase the security of your safe is to bolt it to the floor or wall. Most of the residential security containers (they are not true safes) have weak spots in the back or along the top and bottom seams. Bolting down the safe prevents a person from gaining access to those weaker areas. As has been said, all a burglar needs is time. You probably have all the tools a burglar needs to break into a typical RSC, but there is no reason to make it easy for the guy. Bolting down the safe buys you time.

If you plan to put your safe in a basement, consider raising it off the floor. If you have a leaky pipe, the safe will stay dry a bit longer.

[JConn]

Unfortunately I don't think I can raise it off the floor. But it will get bolted down.

[Fly320s]

Some safes come strapped down to a pallet. That can be used to raise the safe.

[JConn]

I've heard leaving a safe on a pallet is not the best idea from a security stand point. Any info on this?

[Jason F]

I've heard leaving a safe on a pallet is not the best idea from a security stand point. Any info on this?

Well, yeah, because it's now slightly elevated on a device designed to allow you to lift/move/attach/grapple things to the object "riding" on the pallet. Right? Just a WAG.

[JConn]

I should of clarified. It seems like a really bad idea to me. However, if this is not a bad idea let me know.

[JV_]

However, if this is not a bad idea let me know.You should bolt the safe to the floor. That's much harder to do correctly if it's sitting on a pallet. Tipping the safe over, door up, makes it easier to break in to.

[JConn]

There we go. Sounds good. I know these are some ridiculous questions, I just want to know what you guys are doing.

[JConn]

So just to update I ended up putting a down payment on a liberty Fatboy. I decided to go big the first time as opposed to getting all the fancy bells and whistles. Thanks for all the help and advice.

[Odin Bravo One]

I think you will find it plenty of safe, and happy with your purchase so long as you didn't pay too much for it. I am happy with my FatBoy, just wish I had gone bigger. Oh well, it is the last safe I will ever buy.

[JConn]

I probably payed to much. I just got a small military discount. Oh well. Still looks like a great safe.

[Odin Bravo One]

It is a great safe.