Question for Those Who Attend/Attended Frequent High Round Count Pistol Training

[SwampDweller]

This is more of an academic exercise than anything, but it's something I've been thinking about.

To those who either teach or frequently attend (or used to) pistol training classes with relatively brisk round counts on a regular basis (ie, 1-2k+ rounds in a weekend), what brands/models of pistols seem to be the most reliable/durable in aggregate?

Which ones tend to have the least stoppages/breakages/etc? Of course maintenance plays a part in this but I'm just talking about in general.

I remember reading an article ToddG posted many years ago talking about the many breakages/stoppages he'd see with CZ pistols in his classes (which surprised me), and I was wanting to see if any instructors, assistants, students, or just people at training classes a lot see that works well in large enough numbers to be notable.

[sickeness]

In the classes and trainings I have taken both professionally and for fun, many exceeding 1k rounds, I have observed that the M&P platform is exceedingly reliable. I don't think I've ever observed a non-ammo related failure with that platform and they run better than Glocks with no lubricant. My sample size may be a bit biased though since most of our local agencies including my own issue M&Ps.

[Sammy1]

P229 (no rail) in 357 Sig and G22 Gen 4 held up extremely well for me over the years. I used the G22 in MOAC where we shot just shy of 4,000 rds in a week. Two different P320 pistols have had issues in classes.

[Super77]

Stock Glocks go forever, no surprise there.

Glocks that someone has fucked with too much often run terribly.

[JRV]

I’ve seen Glocks run through parts breakages. Broken trigger springs, broken pins, broken ejectors, broken slide rails… they will typically limp along until the parts can be swapped.

Metal-framed CZs break slide stops. It’s a pro-active replacement part. Based on how the stop is fit and lubricated, you might get 3K on a pin, might get 10K, might get 30K.. but you don’t know until it fails.

Beretta 92s… trigger return springs and locking blocks. They fail. I have heard the newer locking blocks are better, but the trigger spring is still a consumable that doesn’t seem to like high volume shooting.

[psalms144.1]

The overwhelming majority of my high-round-count classes were shot with G19s. No issues with mine, or any of those my guys were shooting. I went through one (1) course with my then issued HK45CT - no issue with the pistol, but my finger liked to fell off by the middle of the first day from that 27 pound trigger. I also shot one course (about 1100 rounds in 2 days, as I recall) with a P30 LEM, no issues.

I've seen surprisingly few quality made STOCK pistols fail at any course, match, or training event. That includes countless 1911s of various stripe. I've seen ENORMOUSLY frequent failures with guns that had been "gunsmithed."

[Darth_Uno]

Glocks that someone has fucked with too much often run terribly.




I've seen surprisingly few quality made STOCK pistols fail at any course, match, or training event. That includes countless 1911s of various stripe. I've seen ENORMOUSLY frequent failures with guns that had been "gunsmithed."

Beat me to it. Most stock mid/full size weapons I've seen were drama-free. Adding a hodge-podge of aftermarket parts is where the gremlins come out.

[JohnO]

I've had a Glock break. I've seen Glocks break. Other guns too but I don't remember. Why is it that I remember Glocks breaking? Because they are the most widely used guns in classes. Everything can break given enough time and use. The worst Glock breakage was seeing the locking lugs sheared cleanly off the barrel. I've seen broken Glock locking blocks and in my case the slide release spring broke and my slide flew off the frame after the last round was fired.

I've shot the crap out of 1911's in classes and they never broke. I even had Todd tell me my 1911 would not make it through his class. A while later J.D. Potynski of Northern Red in his class told me the same about my 1911. And now that I think of it I've seen a few 1911's with cracked frames. Owned by guys who were regulars out at GunSite. Those guns were still shooting.

[JRV]

I've seen surprisingly few quality made STOCK pistols fail at any course, match, or training event. That includes countless 1911s of various stripe. I've seen ENORMOUSLY frequent failures with guns that had been "gunsmithed."

Reloaded ammo never seems to help, either.

[Leroy Suggs]

Shooting Glocks since the 19 was introduced.
I have very high confidence in the double stack 9mm Glocks. Both reliability and durability. STOCK GUNS ONLY
You can shoot a lot of rounds through a Glock.
Replace springs as needed.

[SwampDweller]

Good info so far, I’m compiling data for customers who often ask where I work what holds up the best for classes where pistols can be run hard. So far it sounds like 9mm Glocks are pretty universally recognized as being solid. Sounds like some older Sigs too, as well as H&Ks. I mostly shoot HK and Glock but often wonder about the 92 series as well.

Some customers have variations on the question, such as if they’re looking for a specific caliber handgun that holds up well. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, and rarely, .357 SIG.

I’m in an area where certain service members are basically given blank checks to procure what they want locally.

[JohnO]

Some customers have variations on the question, such as if they’re looking for a specific caliber handgun that holds up well. 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, and rarely, .357 SIG.



I've seen a guy or two with a badly beat-up hand from trying to make it through a 2 day class with a .357 Sig Glock. Not for the faint of heart or an old guy on blood thinner, NOPE!

[David S.]

It's been a while since I've been in a high round count class (>1k over a weekend) where people showed up with a crap gun. The standard gun choices that retail for at least $500 seem to run fine in a stock configuration. I'm sure there's a ton of selection bias based on the classes I'm attending, but most of reliability issues I recall are in guns with

aftermarket comps
aftermarket spring "tuning"
poorly lubed guns
junk ammo

No particular order.

Active Self Protection does collect some basic data of problematic guns they see in classes. They occasionally mention it in their AAR's on the ASP "Extra" page. You might reach out to them. It sounds like Gunsite does too.

[HCM]

My observations match those of prior posters in that the number one issue is not the make/model but aftermarket parts and /or modifications. This includes aftermarket magazines and magazines with aftermarket extensions.

Some have been failures of the parts themselves, some improper installation.

Next is ammo quality. Some guns (Glocks) are extremely tolerant of poor quality ammo such as steel case and Blazer aluminum, P320s not do much. P320s require at least Walmart grade brass case ammo.

I just completed an Instructor re-certification class at work, 17 shooters with stock P320s fired 1k rounds each in 5 days with most of those rounds being in 2 days. Ammo was 100 rounds of Gold Dot and about 900 of purple 115 grain Winchester training ammo and Speer frangible. No issues. 4 Glock shooters, sane round count also no issues.

Third is caliber. I’ve seen more failures with .40 and .357, particularly.40 cal Glocks.

With factory optics, most failures are improper installation though I’ve seen more issues with the S&W CORE than the MOS. The latter only with the cheap factory supplied plates. Ironically optics plates are one area where aftermarket solutions are superior to OEM.

[Texaspoff]

I have had classes where everyone's pistol performed perfectly including a few 1911's. I have also had classes where Glock, Sigs, H&K etc have had some type of issue at some point during the course.

I only teach LE, but what I can tell you is, it's pretty easy to pick out in the first 5 minutes who is likely to experience issues during the course.

Most modern handguns are more than capable during a moderate to high round count courses to run without failures. IMO How well a pistol performs during a course is more reliant on the operator rather than the platform. By that I mean how intimae they are with it, IE maintenance and care etc.




TXPO

[JohnK]

I have run 1911s and HKs in the classes I have taken. Overall, I haven't had any problems. My Baer lost its rear sight in the middle of a Langdon class but that's the extent of problems I have had with mine. Not sure if it makes a difference but my 1911s are government size .45s.

I recall a few years ago in a Vogel class one fella having failure to feed issues with an Ed Brown in 9mm... but that's about 6ish years ago and I feel like the formula for 9mm 1911s may be more figured out. Same class a fella had an issue with his department issued P227. But I think that was lubrication related because his gun was dryer than a popcorn fart. I would echo that on one other occasion a Glock that the dude had next to me in an ECQC course- the fella had farted around with the gun and was having pretty nasty feed and ejection problems on day 1. Second day it ran fine.

[HCM]

I have had classes where everyone's pistol performed perfectly including a few 1911's. I have also had classes where Glock, Sigs, H&K etc have had some type of issue at some point during the course.

I only teach LE, but what I can tell you is, it's pretty easy to pick out in the first 5 minutes who is likely to experience issues during the course.

Most modern handguns are more than capable during a moderate to high round count courses to run without failures. IMO How well a pistol performs during a course is more reliant on the operator rather than the platform. By that I mean how intimae they are with it, IE maintenance and care etc.




TXPO

I agree with your observations re: the operators role in reliability.

It raises the question - in open enrollment classes what is the correlation/ causation relationship between operators who induce issues and operators seeking aftermarket hardware solutions to software /training issues ?

[jnc36rcpd]

I had good success with my 9mm and .40 SigSauer 226's. I did lose a front sight on the 9mm during an IALEFI RTC, but substituted my 228 for the rest of the class. We eventually experienced cracked frames in numerous .40's to include a 239, but mine is still solid.

[1Rangemaster]

Rogers Shooting School had G17s they would loan to students and they saw a lot of rounds over a year of classes. That said, anything made by man will eventually fail/break. I’ve had an extractor go in a 1911, as well as the barrel lug breaking off. Had an extractor fail in a Sig220. Parts can go in a Glock too; I keep some small parts in a bag if I don’t have a backup gun.
I think recoil springs are critical. I recall seeing 2,000 rounds as a replacement number for 1911s. Glock stated 5,000 rounds for the single spring assemblies. Pretty sure one could go past that with the compact and full size 4s&5s(dual springs).
If I were going to a high round count class-1,000 to 2,500 rounds- my preference would be a G17, 19, 34 or Model 45, cleaned, lightly lubed with vetted OEM mags and good ammo.
And a backup gun…

[psalms144.1]

I'll jump in on the "proper lubrication" bandwagon as well. Some guns, like Glocks, run fine even when fairly dry. Some don't. Case in point, a friend of mine had a Staccato C2 that he m*****f***ed no end because of "reliability issues." I got hold of it, and the very first thing I saw was it was dry, like USMC arms room ready for inspection dry. I field stripped it, lubricated it according to factory instructions, and hit the range. 500 rounds later, I could tell him, conclusively, there was not a thing wrong with that pistol besides the operator.

Best part is, RIGHT ON TOP of the pistol, in the factory case, is a red 3x5 card, with big bold letters saying: "Lubricate according to instructions BEFORE shooting."

[Duelist]

I'll jump in on the "proper lubrication" bandwagon as well. Some guns, like Glocks, run fine even when fairly dry. Some don't. Case in point, a friend of mine had a Staccato C2 that he m*****f***ed no end because of "reliability issues." I got hold of it, and the very first thing I saw was it was dry, like USMC arms room ready for inspection dry. I field stripped it, lubricated it according to factory instructions, and hit the range. 500 rounds later, I could tell him, conclusively, there was not a thing wrong with that pistol besides the operator.

Best part is, RIGHT ON TOP of the pistol, in the factory case, is a red 3x5 card, with big bold letters saying: "Lubricate according to instructions BEFORE shooting."

I hope your illiterate hillbilly buddy paid for that half case of ammo.

[JohnO]

Having some time to think what I have seen a few times is Gucci Glock’s either breaking or malfunctioning.

I remember Mike Pannone telling a guy his gun was unsafe due to ridiculous minimal sear - cruciform engagement that resulted in the gun doubling. The guy paid 4X the stock Glock price.

[underhook]

Multiple classes and instructors plus years of competition shooting same as what overs have said

Stock Glocks rarely break
Customized Glocks break and when the original parts are put back in they work
Suarez Glocks appear to be the worst of the go faster models
1911s - at least one will go down
Reloads next cause of issues

[claymore504]

Great info here. Not really the exact subject, but a good indication of how long pistols last and what breaks with high round counts. There is a lengthy thread as well from the same company on what they see. Looks like Glock, Beretta 92 and P226 hold up the best for them. I think they mention the Caniks performing pretty good as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApRcRE-ft8&t=920s

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/High-round-count-pistols-100-000-observations/4-160140/

[lwt16]

Stock G17s. I always took two copies to classes.

Stock G45s. Same….took two copies.

When teaching, I’ve fixed a myriad of makes and models with a few drops of oil. I always take a bottle when teaching.

Regards.

[KevH]

The first "high" round-count (800 in two days) course I experienced was in September 2002. Since then I've gone to dozens and have taught some.

98% of stock good quality pistols (Glock, S&W, SIG, H&K, Beretta, etc) that are not under or over-lubricated, using factory magazines, and have had minimal upkeep, will work just fine.

Aftermarket "Mods" will absolutely kill the reliability of a pistol. The best way to make your totally reliable $500 Glock not reliable at all is to send it and $2000 to a place like Salient.

Sorry, I know it looks good on the 'gram to have a blinged out gun, but it's true. It was true when Cerakoting everything was the thing back in 2009 and now it's even more true in 2022 where everyone wants holes cut in their slides and aftermarket everything. I've had guys show up at the range with their Glock frame with lots of high-dollar aftermarket junk put on it and the gun can barely get through a mag. We swapped the guns back to as close to stock as we could get them and suddenly they were reliable again.

1911's are problematic when they are being run by non-1911 people. The 1911 is an aficionado gun in the 21st century and requires a quality gun and a user that understands how it works to keep it going.

Most people are best served by a completely stock 9mm Glock, SIG, or S&W with its factory standard capacity magazines and the gun properly lubricated with a quality gun oil like Hoppes, Lucas, Slip, or Militec-1.

[KevH]

...and quality ammo is the other component.

Steel cased stuff can work, but is generally no bueno. Reloads and off-name ammo also are no good.

You're paying good money for a class and dedicating time to learn.

Use brass-cased factory ammo from folks like Federal or Winchester. Nothing makes a class more miserable than junk ammo making things difficult.

[4RNR]

Last class I attended was spring of 2020. Basically any OLD, none boogered designs that has seen significant mil/LEO use. They've been around, they've been tested. Or those same guns from aftermarket custom gunsmiths. Zev, Agency Arms, Cylinder and Slide...etc..

New designs or home gunsmithing typically have issues.



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[4RNR]

...and quality ammo is the other component.

Steel cased stuff can work, but is generally no bueno. Reloads and off-name ammo also are no good.

You're paying good money for a class and dedicating time to learn.

Use brass-cased factory ammo from folks like Federal or Winchester. Nothing makes a class more miserable than junk ammo making things difficult.I think that largely depends on the gun. Some Glock or a custom race gun. Ok, maybe not that drastic but I still think it has more to do with the gun. I say this as someone who stocks mostly brass case but shoots mostly steel case. In fact I'd say I shoot 99% of handgun rounds in steel case. In classes, without cleaning and I have yet to have a problem. Up until 2 years ago it was just on old gen3 Glock 17 from around 2002 or so. It's not the only gun I've done that with, just the one I've done it with the most. I used it for many years as a training gun and only updated to a gen5 for the ambi controls.

All my guns are factory stock.

Been shooting since late 90s, cleaning is like pulling teeth and I've only had 4 issues with steel case. All primer related and all from one box. I'm not saying anyone should do what I did/do but I also think this is largely overblown.



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[TheNewbie]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

[MandoWookie]

Next is ammo quality. Some guns (Glocks) are extremely tolerant of poor quality ammo such as steel case and Blazer aluminum.

Huh. I've never considered Blazer aluminum as poor quality. In fact I seek it out for when I'm shooting outdoors, as I dont feel I have to pick through the grass to recover my brass.

[xmanhockey7]

My first real class was in 2013-ish. I was the only one carrying appendix and there was a good mix of guns in the class. Glock likely the most prevalent with M&P guns not far behind. Fast forward 300+ hours of training later and a good chunk of the class is shooting Glock, hardly any M&P, and more AIWB then strong side. Thinking back I can’t think of many people have guns completely fail.

One guy had a Kahr PM9 (think it’s a PM9) go down start of the day and he elected to leave the class. Weird dude. In my CPL class a guy had a Colt 1911 3” barrel or whatever. It didn’t work at all neither did his PPK. I saw Steve Fisher straight break a 1911 somehow teaching a class. He just grabbed another one like it was nothing.

I’d say overall Glocks seem to perform well in classes as do M&P, but like I said I haven’t seen many have significant issues. A decent amount of the classes I attended you usually had relatively squared away dudes.

[HCM]

Huh. I've never considered Blazer aluminum as poor quality. In fact I seek it out for when I'm shooting outdoors, as I dont feel I have to pick through the grass to recover my brass.

I shot thousands of rounds of it when I shot Glocks. It was accurate, not particularly dirty and went bang but some guns tolerate the aluminum cases and some don’t.

The P320 and PX4 storm compact didn’t care for it.

It will not run in MP5s either.

Even in Glocks, like steel case, it could be problematic with magpul mags.

[KevH]

I think that largely depends on the gun. Some Glock or a custom race gun. Ok, maybe not that drastic but I still think it has more to do with the gun. I say this as someone who stocks mostly brass case but shoots mostly steel case. In fact I'd say I shoot 99% of handgun rounds in steel case. In classes, without cleaning and I have yet to have a problem. Up until 2 years ago it was just on old gen3 Glock 17 from around 2002 or so. It's not the only gun I've done that with, just the one I've done it with the most. I used it for many years as a training gun and only updated to a gen5 for the ambi controls.

All my guns are factory stock.

Been shooting since late 90s, cleaning is like pulling teeth and I've only had 4 issues with steel case. All primer related and all from one box. I'm not saying anyone should do what I did/do but I also think this is largely overblown.



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I've shot a lot of personally purchased CCI Blazer (aluminum..a different softer animal) and Wolf steel cased ammo through my guns. For casual shooting I would agree that it is fine.

The question was about "high round count" and I can tell you with absolute certainty that steel cased ammo = premature extractor failure.

In 2013 when ammunition became super scarce my department was forced to buy whatever ammo we could find since ATK and Winchester were backordered over a year out and there were some management failures on our end regarding having adequate ammo inventory. We acquired quite a bit of "questionable" ammo from various sources including quite a bit of former ComBloc steel cased ammo. I'm not talking about a few thousand rounds, but rather several pallets of ammunition (as a department we generally burn through about 150k pistol rounds give or take per year).

I can tell you from personal experience (and I know I'm not the only one since I've had the same conversation with other agencies and training staff at places like SIG Academy) that nothing will wear out an extractor and ejector and lead to extraction/ejection failures faster, regardless of pistol or AR brand, than shooting large quantities of steel cased ammunition.

We were very fortunate to only be stuck in ammo hell for about a year and we learned our lesson to never let it happen again.

I can tell you from that period I had the joy of having to pound out quite a few squib bullet out barrels from crappy reloads and that I changed a lot of extractors (and quite a few Glock strikers oddly enough) due to the crap ammo we ran. These were ammo related issues we had never encountered before or since as in normal times we only run Federal or Winchester factory ammo.

At the time we had about 185 cops if you include our reserve officers so we were caring for 185 guns, some of which were shot a lot and some very little (as usual).

Steel cased ammo is hard on guns.

[03RN]

Reloaded ammo never seems to help, either.

I'm guilty of up untill recently not gauging every .45. I've gotten a few oversized rounds that only go in halfway into the chamber.:eek:

[4RNR]

I've shot a lot of personally purchased CCI Blazer (aluminum..a different softer animal) and Wolf steel cased ammo through my guns. For casual shooting I would agree that it is fine.

The question was about "high round count" and I can tell you with absolute certainty that steel cased ammo = premature extractor failure.

In 2013 when ammunition became super scarce my department was forced to buy whatever ammo we could find since ATK and Winchester were backordered over a year out and there were some management failures on our end regarding having adequate ammo inventory. We acquired quite a bit of "questionable" ammo from various sources including quite a bit of former ComBloc steel cased ammo. I'm not talking about a few thousand rounds, but rather several pallets of ammunition (as a department we generally burn through about 150k pistol rounds give or take per year).

I can tell you from personal experience (and I know I'm not the only one since I've had the same conversation with other agencies and training staff at places like SIG Academy) that nothing will wear out an extractor and ejector and lead to extraction/ejection failures faster, regardless of pistol or AR brand, than shooting large quantities of steel cased ammunition.

We were very fortunate to only be stuck in ammo hell for about a year and we learned our lesson to never let it happen again.

I can tell you from that period I had the joy of having to pound out quite a few squib bullet out barrels from crappy reloads and that I changed a lot of extractors (and quite a few Glock strikers oddly enough) due to the crap ammo we ran. These were ammo related issues we had never encountered before or since as in normal times we only run Federal or Winchester factory ammo.

At the time we had about 185 cops if you include our reserve officers so we were caring for 185 guns, some of which were shot a lot and some very little (as usual).

Steel cased ammo is hard on guns.

I believe you but wear out faster in what sense? From 10k rounds to 2k? From 100 years to 10 years? I know my example is only one but that Glock was bought used around 2012 and shot steel case till 2020. About 8 years. I personally don't keep journals but I go though over a case of Russian 9 a year so it's at least 8k rounds + whatever from the police agency that owned it before me. It has the same exact parts as it had when it left that agency, and most likely when it left the factory. Have not broken or replaced a single thing. My current G17 has several thousand steel case and doesn't seem to care.

I did have 4 bad 7.62 rounds years ago. All from one box of ammo. The printer were seated too far in and the firing pin wouldn't reach.

The only gun I actually had function issues with was in the mags of Sig 220 45acp. Could not load any mag more than 4-5 rounds. I'm guessing the steep would bind.

I forgot to mention, there's a video out on YouTube. It's probably 10 years old by now. Some guy tests the hardness of Russian steel cases vs US brass cases. You'd be surprised which is actually harder

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[SwampDweller]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

I know many if not most here have been to way more training classes than me. I can't remember seeing it. Based on the input from others here so far who've been to large numbers of classes/training it doesn't sound like it's much of a thing?

[farscott]

1911's are problematic when they are being run by non-1911 people. The 1911 is an aficionado gun in the 21st century and requires a quality gun and a user that understands how it works to keep it going.

Most people are best served by a completely stock 9mm Glock, SIG, or S&W with its factory standard capacity magazines and the gun properly lubricated with a quality gun oil like Hoppes, Lucas, Slip, or Militec-1.

If one is not willing and able to fit a thumb safety or an extractor, a 1911 is not a good choice for lots of shooting. I have broken quite a few 1911 pistols and parts over the years. Everything from broken front sight tenons to extractors to grip bushings to barrel bushings to plunger tubes to mag catches to barrel lugs. I learned how to fit most parts, including a Kart EZ barrel, and collected a lot of tools along the way.

Glocks sure are a lot easier to maintain as no parts require fitting, and I have only four tools (Glock punch, front sight nut driver, needle nose pliers for the magazine catch spring, and a sight pusher). I have an armorer slide plate but I do not consider that a tool.

[1Rangemaster]

JohnO: I suspect if it’s a “Gucci” Glock, it ain’t stock- and therein lies the problem. Keep it stock as best one can; since we’re adding dot sights-more levels of complexity-systems need a check.
The last Glock Armorer class I attended the recommendation was to have an “inspection” annually. That was defined as detail strip, clean, inspect parts(replacing if necessary), lightly lube and test fire if possible. With electro-optical sights on board, check for tightness-plate and optic-replace battery if necessary and verify function. If iron (night) sights: check for lamps glowing and any damage/misalignment.
SAMMI spec ammo, OEM mags and reliable support gear for optimum performance.
Personally, I field strip and clean every 500 rounds or so. Inspect at 6 month intervals or if I fell into water(don’t ask). I dry fire at least weekly which affords a quick check: sight on and lit...mag falls free...round extracts/ejects...trigger release and resets.
A recognized major mfg. will have a pretty good chance of success in the OP scenario-it is not rocket surgery.
Put it another way: do you want the thing to work in training as you would demand it to work in a lethal confrontation?
Proceed accordingly...

Edit to add: if an operator has a semblance of grip and stance, “ limp wristing” is not much of a thing; no lube, ammo and aftermarket parts can cause a stoppage. Many “civilian”-and a few LE- don’t know the fundamentals. So, “my gun shots low/ isn’t accurate/jams” can be an operator not hardware issue.

[HCM]

I know many if not most here have been to way more training classes than me. I can't remember seeing it. Based on the input from others here so far who've been to large numbers of classes/training it doesn't sound like it's much of a thing?

You would see it in basic / new shooter /CPL classes.

In the training junkie classes most PF folks would attend not so much.

You see some of it in OIS videos but it’s usually more a case getting a bad /compromised grip trying to draw at max spaz speed rather than actual limp wristing.

[G19Fan]

I've shot a lot of personally purchased CCI Blazer (aluminum..a different softer animal) and Wolf steel cased ammo through my guns. For casual shooting I would agree that it is fine.

The question was about "high round count" and I can tell you with absolute certainty that steel cased ammo = premature extractor failure.

In 2013 when ammunition became super scarce my department was forced to buy whatever ammo we could find since ATK and Winchester were backordered over a year out and there were some management failures on our end regarding having adequate ammo inventory. We acquired quite a bit of "questionable" ammo from various sources including quite a bit of former ComBloc steel cased ammo. I'm not talking about a few thousand rounds, but rather several pallets of ammunition (as a department we generally burn through about 150k pistol rounds give or take per year).

I can tell you from personal experience (and I know I'm not the only one since I've had the same conversation with other agencies and training staff at places like SIG Academy) that nothing will wear out an extractor and ejector and lead to extraction/ejection failures faster, regardless of pistol or AR brand, than shooting large quantities of steel cased ammunition.

We were very fortunate to only be stuck in ammo hell for about a year and we learned our lesson to never let it happen again.

I can tell you from that period I had the joy of having to pound out quite a few squib bullet out barrels from crappy reloads and that I changed a lot of extractors (and quite a few Glock strikers oddly enough) due to the crap ammo we ran. These were ammo related issues we had never encountered before or since as in normal times we only run Federal or Winchester factory ammo.

At the time we had about 185 cops if you include our reserve officers so we were caring for 185 guns, some of which were shot a lot and some very little (as usual).

Steel cased ammo is hard on guns.

Agree that steel case ammo is harder on guns but may I ask how much faster parts wore out? Just curious as I have a glock 19 that is on 7k rounds of tula since last November and ejector and extractor are fine. My social use guns only get brass but my range dedicated guns are probably 90% steel at this stage. Curious as to how much faster wear you guys were seeing vs brass

[SwampDweller]

Great info here. Not really the exact subject, but a good indication of how long pistols last and what breaks with high round counts. There is a lengthy thread as well from the same company on what they see. Looks like Glock, Beretta 92 and P226 hold up the best for them. I think they mention the Caniks performing pretty good as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApRcRE-ft8&t=920s

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/High-round-count-pistols-100-000-observations/4-160140/

Incredibly useful information here. From what it sounds like, for reliability and durability, Glock is king (I assume in 9mm), followed by the Beretta 92 and Sig P226. I wonder if any of their Glocks are in .45 or what .45 caliber pistol holds up the best there. I also wonder what kind of .40s they have, if any, and how they hold up. I've seen DocGKR and others speak to .40 caliber Glocks being less reliable and more prone to breakages than the 9mm ones. It sounds like the Gen 5 beefed up slide may have addressed this, but I suppose it's too early to tell.

[KevH]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

No.

I have seen one specific manufacturer's rep try to blame a problem with their gun's design on it.

To me it's a BS excuse perpetuated by that manufacturer whenever their perfect product isn't perfect.

[KevH]

Incredibly useful information here. From what it sounds like, for reliability and durability, Glock is king (I assume in 9mm), followed by the Beretta 92 and Sig P226. I wonder if any of their Glocks are in .45 or what .45 caliber pistol holds up the best there.

You can go back and search years of info on this forum and what you will find is that when it comes to a reliable non-1911 45 ACP the H&k USP is king. Everything else is behind it.

It's not limited to the Beretta 92. The Beretta PX4 is up there as are the latest iterations of the SIG P320.

As stated previously, most modern service pistols of reputable manufacture in stock form are extremely reliable.

When you start throwing on aftermarket parts and deviating from stock form the reliability drops.

[KevH]

Agree that steel case ammo is harder on guns but may I ask how much faster parts wore out? Just curious as I have a glock 19 that is on 7k rounds of tula since last November and ejector and extractor are fine. My social use guns only get brass but my range dedicated guns are probably 90% steel at this stage. Curious as to how much faster wear you guys were seeing vs brass

It totally depends on the gun. The Glock's extractor for the most part is fairly forgiving while the SIG P220 internal one was not.

We saw significant accelerated wear anywhere between 500 and 1500 rounds of the junk. For the most part, we saw it on SWAT officer's and range staff's guns which are the guns that get shot more than average. It's hard to put an exact number to it.

[1Rangemaster]

You would see it in basic / new shooter /CPL classes.

In the training junkie classes most PF folks would attend not so much.

You see some of it in OIS videos but it’s usually more a case getting a bad /compromised grip trying to draw at max spaz speed rather than actual limp wristing.

Brings up an interesting line of discussion: is the flight/fight/freeze response contributing? For example, “recoiling” away from a lethal threat-contributory? Or, is maintenance or lack there of a factor? Probably a combination of factors when it occurs.

[SwampDweller]

Brings up an interesting line of discussion: is the flight/fight/freeze response contributing? For example, “recoiling” away from a lethal threat-contributory? Or, is maintenance or lack there of a factor? Probably a combination of factors when it occurs.

It certainly does bring up an interesting line of discussion. OIS/DGU encounters have a lot of jerking around and non-ideal grips. Could be something to consider when assessing reliability.

[1Rangemaster]

You can go back and search years of info on this forum and what you will find is that when it comes to a reliable non-1911 45 ACP the H&k USP is king. Everything else is behind it.

It's not limited to the Beretta 92. The Beretta PX4 is up there as are the latest iterations of the SIG P320.

As stated previously, most modern service pistols of reputable manufacture in stock form are extremely reliable.

When you start throwing on aftermarket parts and deviating from stock form the reliability drops.

Yes-from what I’ve read and experienced, the G21 and M&P would be in the running; the USP is overbuilt in a good way. Sample of 1, etc. but I have a G30SF which has run well over a couple of thousand rounds.
Me personally I would only go with the 9x19 for 1-3,000 rounds over 2-6 days, if I could pull that off. Glock platform first as I have the most experience with it. Polymer frames after that-H&K, S&W, APX. Then a 92, with 9 mm 1911 last because they seem problematic to me.

[HCM]

Brings up an interesting line of discussion: is the flight/fight/freeze response contributing? For example, “recoiling” away from a lethal threat-contributory? Or, is maintenance or lack there of a factor? Probably a combination of factors when it occurs.


That’s a complicated issue.

One factor is the majority of cops are trained to a level of conscious competence, rather than unconscious competence.

Trying to do your first sub second draw in an OIS after you’ve spent years doing 1.5 to 2.5 second draws in a no officer left behind qual is not a recipe for success. At best we default to our training.

Another factor is individuals level of emotional control.

Regardless it’s outside the scope of reliability in high round count training classes.

[SwampDweller]

Regardless it’s outside the scope of reliability in high round count training classes.

If it is something seen during said high round count training classes I think it's worthy of note, but it sounds like it's not common. I would think that in quality training classes that include shooting from non-standard positions/grips, limpwristing would come up if it were going to be an issue for a person in real world use.

For what it's worth, an ex of mine could limpwrist my 92fs and didn't limpwrist my G19.

[1Rangemaster]

It certainly does bring up an interesting line of discussion. OIS/DGU encounters have a lot of jerking around and non-ideal grips. Could be something to consider when assessing reliability.

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

[1Rangemaster]

That’s a complicated issue.

One factor is the majority of cops are trained to a level of conscious competence, rather than unconscious competence.

Trying to do your first sub second draw in an OIS after you’ve spent years doing 1.5 to 2.5 second draws in a no officer left behind qual is not a recipe for success. At best we default to our training.

Another factor is individuals level of emotional control.

Regardless it’s outside the scope of reliability in high round count training classes.

Yeah, agree “it’s complicated”. And now we get into “mindset”-and I will leave it at that for the moment.

[SwampDweller]

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

Another thing to consider in this realm is that certain guns excel in reliability in some areas more than others. For just an example, a Beretta 92 or 1911 may be less susceptible to limpwristing than a G19, but a G19 may be more reliable than a 92 or 1911 when dropped in (or the user falls into) sand or mud. That is certainly something that happens in OIS/DGU encounters.

Not to equate the reliability of the 92 and 1911. Personally I've seen and experienced far more issues with 1911s than Beretta 92s.

[G19Fan]

It totally depends on the gun. The Glock's extractor for the most part is fairly forgiving while the SIG P220 internal one was not.

We saw significant accelerated wear anywhere between 500 and 1500 rounds of the junk. For the most part, we saw it on SWAT officer's and range staff's guns which are the guns that get shot more than average. It's hard to put an exact number to it.

Makes sense and thanks! Yeah I definitely beat on my training gun's and so far so good. Definitely keeping watch on wear

[HCM]

Or, enable the operator. That’s what instruction, training and practice are for. The “average” local LE officer around here gets a couple of hundred rounds a year and does little if any dry firing and manipulations. Federal folks with bigger budgets might get quarterly shooting sessions.
The machines today are pretty reliable; it’s the “Indian” that needs constant tuning I think.

It varies considerably at the local level.

My city PD guys get 500 to 800 hundred rounds a year during a week of in-service once per year and a hundred or so when they qualify at another time. They intentionally do them separately to provide greater recency than once per year. They also do force on force regularly. They have a great firearms program and their performance in OIS reflects it.

Conversely there are agencies in my area which shoot monthly and agencies which go to the range once a year, shoot the state mandated 50 round qual once or twice and go drink the rest of the day.

I’ve written here before that guns, ammo, optics etc are all cheap compared to man hours..

[Patrick Taylor]

Back during one of the ammo crunches I took a case of steel case wolf to a class with a Glock , it choked on it both days. There was also one shooter with a HK 45 that had problems the first day , 2nd day he shot a school rental gun. No idea what model of HK 45 it was.

[MDFA]

1. Reasonably Clean and Lubed.
2. Quality Factory Ammo.
3. Don't Fuck With It.
4. Gun Will Work Better Than The Operator....

[revchuck38]

I'll jump in on the "proper lubrication" bandwagon as well. Some guns, like Glocks, run fine even when fairly dry. Some don't. Case in point, a friend of mine had a Staccato C2 that he m*****f***ed no end because of "reliability issues." I got hold of it, and the very first thing I saw was it was dry, like USMC arms room ready for inspection dry. I field stripped it, lubricated it according to factory instructions, and hit the range. 500 rounds later, I could tell him, conclusively, there was not a thing wrong with that pistol besides the operator.

Best part is, RIGHT ON TOP of the pistol, in the factory case, is a red 3x5 card, with big bold letters saying: "Lubricate according to instructions BEFORE shooting."

Karl Rehn has been training folks since the 90s. From his "Class Policies" page:

Bring a clean and well lubricated gun to class. It is almost impossible to over-lubricate a modern semi automatic firearm. Guns need more than the "3 drops of oil" some gunshop employees claim, and "new in box" guns that have never been fired need lubrication too. A good rule of thumb is to use about twice as much oil as you think you should, then work the slide and wipe off the excess. Use a product sold as gun oil, not Break Free, WD-40 or any combination "cleaner & lubricant".

Going off on a tangent, revolvers can make it through a high round count class. I went through ~720 rounds in a day and a half with no problems, using an S&W M67 and my lead bullet handloads, BUT I was brushing out the chambers and under the extractor star every chance I had, and the ammo was a perfect fit in the chamber mouths and bore. Shooting a modern 9x19 with decent FMJ ammo is just so much easier.

[JohnO]

JohnO: I suspect if it’s a “Gucci” Glock, it ain’t stock- and therein lies the problem.

That was my point.

When someone is forking over $2K for a $500 gun you have to question why. If truly $1500 worth of work went in then it is not what was when it started out. Therefore whatever reputation of performance & reliability normally attributed to the base brand/model has long sense departed.

[Kyle Reese]

I do the LE firearms instructor as a full-time day job and teach with Green Ops on the side. Here are my general observations pertaining to handguns that I see on the line;

As an agency, we used to issue GLOCK 23 Gen 4's to uniformed officers and GLOCK 35 Gen 4 MOS' to ERT. During the post-FLETC recruit firearms training, over a two year period, I personally witnessed several G23's on the line experience broken locking block pins, broken slide stops and many instances of the trigger pin walking out. The ammunition used was Speer Gold-Dot 165 grain JHP. Shooter fatigue was a factor as well, especially during the Reactive Shooter Operator Course. Our GLOCK 35's were reliable and much more pleasant to shoot, obviously.

In early 2021, we switched to the GLOCK 47 for uniformed officers, GLOCK 19 Gen 5 MOS for 1811's and we also procured some GLOCK 43X's for limited issue. To the best of my knowledge, parts breakage/issues in the 47's/19's is at zero. The guns are extremely popular with the troops and I feel that they were an excellent selection. The only reliability issues so far are end user induced (failing to seat the mag properly) or the occasional hard primer with our training ammunition. I took a bone stock G47 down to Rogers Shooting School last summer and got my Advanced rating with it. My work G47 has an Aimpoint ACRO P-1 and TLR-1, and I've fired north of 20,000 rounds through it since last April. The gun gets cleaned when it needs it and lubed with EWL or Lucas Extreme Duty Gun oil. I feel that the Gen 5's are the best guns that GLOCK has ever made and I am thrilled that we selected them.

The GLOCK 43X's are used much less frequently, but with the fully loaded OEM 10 round mags, they do not seem to like being seated with a round chambered. Minor issue, but there it is.

On the commercial side with Green Ops, I see a much larger group of firearms represented on the firing line. As a general rule, unmodified GLOCKs, M&Ps, Walther PPQ/PDPs, HKs, etc all run fine with factory mags, quality ammunition and with the appropriate amount of lubricant. Things begin to go a bit side ways with aftermarket titanium strikers, ETS pistol mags and Bubba McMurtry's Country Cookin' Gun Show reloads. One student came to class with a GLOCK 30 with every bell and whistle under the sun installed- custom titanium striker to "reduce lock time", connector, the whole works. The gun was unreliable, and the student had the OEM parts in the GLOCK case. During lunch, the gun was brought back into OEM configuration and ran fine for the remainder of the class. Surprisingly, 1911's that are properly lubricated, fed quality ammo and use good mags seem to run well.

Just my observations.......

[SwampDweller]

I do the LE firearms instructor as a full-time day job and teach with Green Ops on the side. Here are my general observations pertaining to handguns that I see on the line;

As an agency, we used to issue GLOCK 23 Gen 4's to uniformed officers and GLOCK 35 Gen 4 MOS' to ERT. During the post-FLETC recruit firearms training, over a two year period, I personally witnessed several G23's on the line experience broken locking block pins, broken slide stops and many instances of the trigger pin walking out. The ammunition used was Speer Gold-Dot 165 grain JHP. Shooter fatigue was a factor as well, especially during the Reactive Shooter Operator Course. Our GLOCK 35's were reliable and much more pleasant to shoot, obviously.

In early 2021, we switched to the GLOCK 47 for uniformed officers, GLOCK 19 Gen 5 MOS for 1811's and we also procured some GLOCK 43X's for limited issue. To the best of my knowledge, parts breakage/issues in the 47's/19's is at zero. The guns are extremely popular with the troops and I feel that they were an excellent selection. The only reliability issues so far are end user induced (failing to seat the mag properly) or the occasional hard primer with our training ammunition. I took a bone stock G47 down to Rogers Shooting School last summer and got my Advanced rating with it. My work G47 has an Aimpoint ACRO P-1 and TLR-1, and I've fired north of 20,000 rounds through it since last April. The gun gets cleaned when it needs it and lubed with EWL or Lucas Extreme Duty Gun oil. I feel that the Gen 5's are the best guns that GLOCK has ever made and I am thrilled that we selected them.

The GLOCK 43X's are used much less frequently, but with the fully loaded OEM 10 round mags, they do not seem to like being seated with a round chambered. Minor issue, but there it is.

On the commercial side with Green Ops, I see a much larger group of firearms represented on the firing line. As a general rule, unmodified GLOCKs, M&Ps, Walther PPQ/PDPs, HKs, etc all run fine with factory mags, quality ammunition and with the appropriate amount of lubricant. Things begin to go a bit side ways with aftermarket titanium strikers, ETS pistol mags and Bubba McMurtry's Country Cookin' Gun Show reloads. One student came to class with a GLOCK 30 with every bell and whistle under the sun installed- custom titanium striker to "reduce lock time", connector, the whole works. The gun was unreliable, and the student had the OEM parts in the GLOCK case. During lunch, the gun was brought back into OEM configuration and ran fine for the remainder of the class. Surprisingly, 1911's that are properly lubricated, fed quality ammo and use good mags seem to run well.

Just my observations.......

This is invaluable information. Thank you.

Out of curiosity, what HKs do you see and are any in .45? How do they do?

[Kyle Reese]

USPs (full size and compact) in 9mm, 40 and 45- full size and compact. DA/SA and LEM. VP9 and VP9 SK. Quite a few 9mm P2000s and P30s.

No issues except for end user error.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[falnovice]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

Tons, absolute tons. This comes with the disclaimer that I assisted with new shooter classes for a number of years.
I would also add that Glocks appear to be far more susceptible to limp writing than other designs, with the disclaimer that the most common gun I saw was Glock so that may be skewed. Having said that, M&Ps are pretty popular and don't seem to limp wrist as easily, and metal-framed guns very rarely.

Stock guns from major companies appear to be very reliable if they are properly maintained and lubed. I really haven't noticed any difference between Glocks, M&Ps, and HKs in that regard. Poorly maintained or high round count guns experience issues. For a while there it seemed everyone was trying to run their Glocks without cleaning or service. Springs breaking should not surprise anyone at that point. I personally always keep a duplicate of my carry gun for training, just to keep the round count down on the one that matters.
Modified guns are a crapshoot. In my observation Glock, with the largest available aftermarket, is the worst offender here. Gucci Glocks are like 1911s; when they are built right they just scream, but when they are not they are junk.

Extended controls, most specifically mag releases, cause a lot of issues. I don't know how many accidental mag drops I have seen, both new shooters as well as professional classes I've attended, but it is high. It might be the number one issue. That, or aftermarket mags and/or baseplates.

Tacitcool "go fast" mentalities induce a lot of malfunctions too. I think we forget that some techniques really have to be trained to be maintained. Again, mostly focusing on new shooters and those that aren't "gun people"; if you are going to go to a two-day class, and then shoot once a year, then all the "go fast" stuff needs to be left in the locker. Thumbs high, thumbs forward grips are great, if you don't lock the slide open while firing, or thumb pinch the slide, or knuckle drag the slide causing a jam. I have even seen LEOs do this, and that is just under time stress. Hell, I've seen shooters C-clamp the gun with their thumb up OVER the slide!

Surprisingly, or maybe not, quality 1911s running ball and regular mags have generally been quite reliable in my observation. Of course, most people don't run high dollar hollow points at a high round count class.

If I had to select one gun for the most reliable title, in my observation, it would probably be the Sig P226. I don't recall seeing any breakages on those, though failure to lock back was a common occurrence. Ask someone else and they would have a different observation. Personally, my most reliable gun has been a Mark III Browing Hi-Power, lightly smithed by a pro. Of course, the only time I've seen one of those in a class is when I was shooting it.
The rangemaster at the local rental range claims the old steel Ruger P89 is the most reliable auto ever made. They still are running the first one from when they opened. I've never seen one in a class so.....

Unless one is willing to dedicate the time to maintain a higher skillset, then a stock gun with good sights and a KISS attitude is the best way to go IMHO.
If you are willing to invest the time and money in regular training, then any modern automatic from a major company will serve you well....just don't "improve" it to the point it is broken. :)

All my observations, and as always YMMV.

[SwampDweller]

Tons, absolute tons. This comes with the disclaimer that I assisted with new shooter classes for a number of years.
I would also add that Glocks appear to be far more susceptible to limp writing than other designs, with the disclaimer that the most common gun I saw was Glock so that may be skewed. Having said that, M&Ps are pretty popular and don't seem to limp wrist as easily, and metal-framed guns very rarely.

Does this factor harm the overall trust in the reliability of the Glock in your eyes? It's not hard to imagine someone having to shoot in self defense or the line of duty with a compromised grip due to injury or chaotic circumstances, like being knocked down.

[PD Sgt.]

My personal experience mirrors pretty much what everyone else here has said. Most failures I have witnessed come from pistols that are more heavily modified. The more modified, the more likely to experience issues. Stock Glocks, M&Ps, HKs, CZ, Berettas, and most recently a couple Stacattos have all seemed to run fine from what I could see.

My personal training pistols are usually a 9mm Gen5 Glock of some sort, 19, 17, or 45. I always bring a spare but have yet needed to switch. The extent of the mods to mine are NP3’d connectors and striker safety. Never an issue.

I have shot a ton of the old aluminum cased Blazer in classes without issue. I don’t think I would run steel if I could help it but I have seen others do it. Apparently the aluminum cased stuff is no longer in production (according to our firearms training guys) so it will be brass for me from here on out. We did switch to the dirtiest (cheapest) stuff I can recall shooting (Blazer 147g), so we will see how it works out. I have two classes coming up at the end of next month and I will report back on if the ammo makes a difference in them.

[falnovice]

Does this factor harm the overall trust in the reliability of the Glock in your eyes? It's not hard to imagine someone having to shoot in self defense or the line of duty with a compromised grip due to injury or chaotic circumstances, like being knocked down.

No, not particularly. To be honest I have never had a limp wrist malfunction with a Glock myself unless I was trying to induce one. Having said that, while I am by no means Hercules, I am a bit larger than average and blessed with formative years filled with manual labor; I have a strong grip. Though I admit I moved over to the M&Ps a while ago, so I may not be the best judge on this one.

Now if one was inexperienced, with small hands or an inherent weak grip, then this might be a factor to consider for them.

If I recall correctly one of the more reputable trainers observed that handguns malfunction a lot more in real-world shootings than people like to admit. A quick look at any of the more popular Youtube channels that are dedicated to civilian/leo shootings seems to support that. I've always been curious regarding the rate of malfunctions vs total ammo expended, and I suspect that a study of this might find that in civilian self-defense shootings one is more likely to have a malfunction than to fire 10+ rounds, require a speed reload, require one hand reload, or engage with the non-dominate hand only after injury. If I am ever laid up in bed with broken legs, or quarantined with COVID OmegaThetaEpsilon, I will dedicate the time to these thousands of videos and come up with some statistics to amuse myself.

Clearing malfunction drills aren't very sexy, but I think they have a lot of value.

As always, these are my opinions and YMMV.

[SwampDweller]

My personal experience mirrors pretty much what everyone else here has said. Most failures I have witnessed come from pistols that are more heavily modified. The more modified, the more likely to experience issues. Stock Glocks, M&Ps, HKs, CZ, Berettas, and most recently a couple Stacattos have all seemed to run fine from what I could see.

My personal training pistols are usually a 9mm Gen5 Glock of some sort, 19, 17, or 45. I always bring a spare but have yet needed to switch. The extent of the mods to mine are NP3’d connectors and striker safety. Never an issue.

I have shot a ton of the old aluminum cased Blazer in classes without issue. I don’t think I would run steel if I could help it but I have seen others do it. Apparently the aluminum cased stuff is no longer in production (according to our firearms training guys) so it will be brass for me from here on out. We did switch to the dirtiest (cheapest) stuff I can recall shooting (Blazer 147g), so we will see how it works out. I have two classes coming up at the end of next month and I will report back on if the ammo makes a difference in them.

Thanks, I'd be interested to hear what you have to report.

[Oldherkpilot]

Huh. I've never considered Blazer aluminum as poor quality. In fact I seek it out for when I'm shooting outdoors, as I dont feel I have to pick through the grass to recover my brass.

I attended a high round count course that specified no reloaded ammo. The only factory .40 ammo I had was Blazer Aluminum. My CZ 40P went from flawless to double feeds when introduced to the aluminum. I installed the slide from my spare pistol and went back to flawless. Seems the weaker extractor spring slipped off the rim of the aluminum more easily, resulting in the double feeds. Glad to find the weakness at school and not getting kilt in the streets!

[SwampDweller]

No, not particularly. To be honest I have never had a limp wrist malfunction with a Glock myself unless I was trying to induce one. Having said that, while I am by no means Hercules, I am a bit larger than average and blessed with formative years filled with manual labor; I have a strong grip. Though I admit I moved over to the M&Ps a while ago, so I may not be the best judge on this one.

Now if one was inexperienced, with small hands or an inherent weak grip, then this might be a factor to consider for them.

If I recall correctly one of the more reputable trainers observed that handguns malfunction a lot more in real-world shootings than people like to admit. A quick look at any of the more popular Youtube channels that are dedicated to civilian/leo shootings seems to support that. I've always been curious regarding the rate of malfunctions vs total ammo expended, and I suspect that a study of this might find that in civilian self-defense shootings one is more likely to have a malfunction than to fire 10+ rounds, require a speed reload, require one hand reload, or engage with the non-dominate hand only after injury. If I am ever laid up in bed with broken legs, or quarantined with COVID OmegaThetaEpsilon, I will dedicate the time to these thousands of videos and come up with some statistics to amuse myself.

Clearing malfunction drills aren't very sexy, but I think they have a lot of value.

As always, these are my opinions and YMMV.

I've noticed how often pistols seem to malfunction in LEO shooting footage. The vast majority of the time it's a Glock, but the vast majority of LEO pistols are Glocks in these videos so it could be because of that. I do remember seeing one vid with an officer's M&P malfunctioning and one with a Sig P320 as well, but most are Glocks. Maybe it's just because pistols malfunction more often in real world settings as you say, but it still makes one who carries a Glock wonder.

I did notice on at least a few of the videos (wouldn't be able to find them now, probably), they were definitely not limp wristing malfunctions but rather the slide's travel being obstructed or some other reason.

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

[Kyle Reese]

I've noticed how often pistols seem to malfunction in LEO shooting footage. The vast majority of the time it's a Glock, but the vast majority of LEO pistols are Glocks in these videos so it could be because of that. I do remember seeing one vid with an officer's M&P malfunctioning and one with a Sig P320 as well, but most are Glocks. Maybe it's just because pistols malfunction more often in real world settings as you say, but it still makes one who carries a Glock wonder.

I did notice on at least a few of the videos (wouldn't be able to find them now, probably), they were definitely not limp wristing malfunctions but rather the slide's travel being obstructed or some other reason.

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

I've witnessed GLOCKs malfunctioning (end user induced) when LEOs are shooting from the high retention position- firing the weapon with their primary hand where the pistol is held close to the body. This technique is taught to be applied at contact distances (under 1.5 yards). The causal factor is the rear of the slide making contact with the external vest. Canting the pistol outward slightly prevents this from happening. Also, another thing to consider- some LEO duty guns are dry and dirty, and are often exposed to the rain, heat and other environmental factors. As much as we'd like them to, some officers don't clean, lube and inspect their duty weapons as often as we'd like, or in some cases, at all. I think that it's safe to say that this is not uncommon at most agencies nationwide.

Factor in an unlubricated & dirty gun, suboptimal firing grip and stuff coming into contact with the slide while firing- we begin to see the importance of maintaining your duty gear and for regularly training to clear stoppages and get the pistol back into the fight as efficiently as possible.

[falnovice]

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

Big hands with relatively short sausage fingers. :) M&P is just a better fit for me, not a knock against Glock.

Other long-winded thoughts.

Over the last couple of years, especially the 2020 unpleasantness, I had a lot of people at work ask me about what gun to buy....apparently I am one of the "gun guys that knows such archane things" in their minds*. While I am by no means a brand ambassador, I think the M&P 2.0s are a safe bet for the newbie shooter for the following reasons:
1. Reliable. Must be reliable.
2. Ergonomics. Swappable grip panels make it easier for nearly anyone of any build to get a good grip. Tends to point more naturally once the right grip size is used, by that I mean one hand grip and press out the gun points level. Glocks point high for some people, and P320s can point low, especially with a low grip. You can play with the P320s but it is hard to do and less available out of the box.
3. Sights are acceptable out of the box, sighting options are readily available and at least two of the local gun stores do installs. Some do package deals with a new gun purshase.
4. 2.0 Trigger is usable, though not perfect.
5. Reasonably priced and available.
6. The 2.0 Compact is G19 size with mild recoil. Makes for a decent defensive gun, household gun, nightstand gun, and if needed CCW. One gun solution for a lot of people.

Distant 7th: Aftermarket triggers from Apex are reasonably priced, and in my experience, utterly reliable....if someone becomes a more serious shooter and wants the only upgrade I would consider after sights it can be easily done. For the average bump in the night gunowner the 2.0 trigger is perfectly fine IMO.

I freely admit that my priority list for guns and their attributes are a bit different than some others.

*Sidenote: Over the last couple I years I have found myself seriously reevaluating guns, training, and mentality. I am not a professional trainer, but I do like to safely introduce people to shooting if the opportunity arises. I don't know about everybody else, but in the 2020-2021 timeframe I probably brought more new shooters to the range for the first time than in the 30 years that preceded it. Part of that is clearly the situation at hand, part of that is the lack of availability of local classes due to shutdowns and other limitations, either way, having a lot of one on one time with new shooters is an eye-opener. I realized, for myself, that a lot of the stuff I used to focus on is really just me getting lost in the details. New shooters neither understand or care about some of the gun guy stuff we geek out about. They are not going to shoot regularly, and if they shoot high with a Glock they are never going to train enough to overcome that. If they bump the slide stop up on one gun or ride it down on a SIG they are not going to train enough to prevent that from happening. I feel that I really had to pivot to the audience I was addressing here, and try to understand what they really NEEDED TO KNOW rather than what I thought I wanted to teach them. Safety and fundamentals, not high-speed low-drag stuff.
And the macho foolishness doesn't help anyone either, not when you are taking a 40-year-old first-time gun owner lady to the range who is legitimately scared; she is scared of guns, scared of where society is going, scared of the news she is seeing, scared for her children and their future. She is joining the gun-owning community out of fear because events have shattered the grand illusion she has lived under. For these sorts of people, I apply heavy doses of KISS and work on the fundamentals with a focus on Safety first, last, and always. Do you have health insurance? Homeowners? Life? This is the same thing, just skills and equipment to ensure not only your health and safety but that of your family. You can be a responsible gunowner without marching into Starbucks with an SKS or blowing up your lawnmower with tannerite. (In a lot of ways I think YouTube hurts the perception of gun owners.)

And if I do it right, they may even see that the gun-owning community is pretty good place to be. One of the guys I took to the range in fall of 2020 shoots pretty regularly now, and is going to the Sig Academy at some point this summer for a two day CCW course. Feel pretty good about that one, brought another good guy into the fold. :)

[HCM]

I've noticed how often pistols seem to malfunction in LEO shooting footage. The vast majority of the time it's a Glock, but the vast majority of LEO pistols are Glocks in these videos so it could be because of that. I do remember seeing one vid with an officer's M&P malfunctioning and one with a Sig P320 as well, but most are Glocks. Maybe it's just because pistols malfunction more often in real world settings as you say, but it still makes one who carries a Glock wonder.

I did notice on at least a few of the videos (wouldn't be able to find them now, probably), they were definitely not limp wristing malfunctions but rather the slide's travel being obstructed or some other reason.

Also, what made you switch to the M&P?

I’ve only seen one P320 malfunction in an OIS video and it involved the officer placing his support side thumb behind the slide.

Again improper/compromised grip seems to account for the majority of these not the apocryphal “limp wristing.”

[pangloss]

I took MAG40 about a year ago. The second two days of the class were the range days, and instructions were to bring 500 rounds of ammo. I had ammo left over, so we didn't shoot that much. One guy in the class had a tricked out Gucci Glock that would not run. If I remember correctly, his son gave it to him as a gift. The other guy who had problems in the class was shooting a Nighthawk War Hawk. You could look at that gun in the holster and tell in a fraction of a second that it was an expensive gun. It was absolutely gorgeous, but it wouldn't run. During one of the breaks, I asked to take a look at his mags, and it was obvious to me that one was dimensionally different from the other. The guy was not pleased. I don't teach and taken less than a dozen classes. I can't remember any other problem guns off hand. A few years ago ~90% of the pistols in class were Glocks. The last class I took had a lot of P320s in it.

I like "nice" things as much as the next guy, but I just can't see paying $3K to $4K for a pistol that doesn't run as well as the G19 I bought for $398.00 using my GSSF certificate on second amendment tax free weekend. I have SCDs on all my Glocks and decent sights, so all total I have maybe $600 in the gun. The G19.5 that I took to that class has just shy of 8K rounds through it with no malfunctions or failures to fire. I changed some parts out a 5K rounds, and will again at 10K. In terms of function, I don't know what else a person could want.

[Exiledviking]

I shot thousands of rounds of it when I shot Glocks. It was accurate, not particularly dirty and went bang but some guns tolerate the aluminum cases and some don’t.

The P320 and PX4 storm compact didn’t care for it.

It will not run in MP5s either.

Even in Glocks, like steel case, it could be problematic with magpul mags.A few years back two of friends bought Blazer aluminum 9mm ammo for range use. It ran fine in their guns with the exception of their HK P2000 and USPs. I experienced the same issue with their ammo.
They contacted HK and were told that HK recommends NOT using aluminum cased ammo in their pistols.

[JSGlock34]

A few years back two of friends bought Blazer aluminum 9mm ammo for range use. It ran fine in their guns with the exception of their HK P2000 and USPs. I experienced the same issue with their ammo.
They contacted HK and were told that HK recommends NOT using aluminum cased ammo in their pistols.

The P30 manual specifically says no aluminum or steel cased ammunition. It came up in the first week of Todd's endurance test.

We did have one bobble with the Blazer. The P30 manual clearly states that aluminum and steel case ammunition should not be used. True to their word, a combination of inadvertent thumb pressure on the slide and the not-recommended ammunition led to a double feed. I was able to reproduce the problem with that ammo only so long as I pressed against the slide. While it’s certainly unfortunate that the P30 is incompatible with such a common practice load, because the ammo was not within the P30’s specifications we’re not counting it against the gun.

[JohnO]

A bunch of years ago I was in a class that had a large contingent from the CT State Police SWAT Team. At the time their duty sidearm was a 1911. They have since changed to a M&P 2.0 in 9mm. The 1911's were rebranded Guncrafters made for the "contractor" who sold them to the CTSP.

I quickly noticed that one of the Troopers had a single shot 1911. The slide was locking back after every round he fired. I watched him and some of his teammates struggle to diagnose the problem with no luck.

I wandered over and offered to take a look. I didn't know these guys and was slightly apprehensive about how they would receive my offer. "I know a little bit about the 1911 platform would you like me to take a look?" The Trooper was happy to hand over his single shot blaster.

Within just a few seconds I saw the problem. The lobe of the slide stop was copper coated. It was protruding too far into the frame and the FMJ ball ammo was hitting it as it came up in the magazine. Did he carry it on duty? Would it have worked with JHPs with a different bullet profile? The Trooper told me the gun was recently back from refurbishment. I don't think it was refurbed at Guncrafters but the intermediator who had the contract with the CTSP.

The Trooper went straight to his team leader and said his pistol needs to be immediately taken out of service.

This pistol didn't fail during the class. It arrived in a failed state.

[SwampDweller]

Big hands with relatively short sausage fingers. :) M&P is just a better fit for me, not a knock against Glock.

Other long-winded thoughts.

Over the last couple of years, especially the 2020 unpleasantness, I had a lot of people at work ask me about what gun to buy....apparently I am one of the "gun guys that knows such archane things" in their minds*. While I am by no means a brand ambassador, I think the M&P 2.0s are a safe bet for the newbie shooter for the following reasons:
1. Reliable. Must be reliable.
2. Ergonomics. Swappable grip panels make it easier for nearly anyone of any build to get a good grip. Tends to point more naturally once the right grip size is used, by that I mean one hand grip and press out the gun points level. Glocks point high for some people, and P320s can point low, especially with a low grip. You can play with the P320s but it is hard to do and less available out of the box.
3. Sights are acceptable out of the box, sighting options are readily available and at least two of the local gun stores do installs. Some do package deals with a new gun purshase.
4. 2.0 Trigger is usable, though not perfect.
5. Reasonably priced and available.
6. The 2.0 Compact is G19 size with mild recoil. Makes for a decent defensive gun, household gun, nightstand gun, and if needed CCW. One gun solution for a lot of people.

Distant 7th: Aftermarket triggers from Apex are reasonably priced, and in my experience, utterly reliable....if someone becomes a more serious shooter and wants the only upgrade I would consider after sights it can be easily done. For the average bump in the night gunowner the 2.0 trigger is perfectly fine IMO.

I freely admit that my priority list for guns and their attributes are a bit different than some others.

*Sidenote: Over the last couple I years I have found myself seriously reevaluating guns, training, and mentality. I am not a professional trainer, but I do like to safely introduce people to shooting if the opportunity arises. I don't know about everybody else, but in the 2020-2021 timeframe I probably brought more new shooters to the range for the first time than in the 30 years that preceded it. Part of that is clearly the situation at hand, part of that is the lack of availability of local classes due to shutdowns and other limitations, either way, having a lot of one on one time with new shooters is an eye-opener. I realized, for myself, that a lot of the stuff I used to focus on is really just me getting lost in the details. New shooters neither understand or care about some of the gun guy stuff we geek out about. They are not going to shoot regularly, and if they shoot high with a Glock they are never going to train enough to overcome that. If they bump the slide stop up on one gun or ride it down on a SIG they are not going to train enough to prevent that from happening. I feel that I really had to pivot to the audience I was addressing here, and try to understand what they really NEEDED TO KNOW rather than what I thought I wanted to teach them. Safety and fundamentals, not high-speed low-drag stuff.
And the macho foolishness doesn't help anyone either, not when you are taking a 40-year-old first-time gun owner lady to the range who is legitimately scared; she is scared of guns, scared of where society is going, scared of the news she is seeing, scared for her children and their future. She is joining the gun-owning community out of fear because events have shattered the grand illusion she has lived under. For these sorts of people, I apply heavy doses of KISS and work on the fundamentals with a focus on Safety first, last, and always. Do you have health insurance? Homeowners? Life? This is the same thing, just skills and equipment to ensure not only your health and safety but that of your family. You can be a responsible gunowner without marching into Starbucks with an SKS or blowing up your lawnmower with tannerite. (In a lot of ways I think YouTube hurts the perception of gun owners.)

And if I do it right, they may even see that the gun-owning community is pretty good place to be. One of the guys I took to the range in fall of 2020 shoots pretty regularly now, and is going to the Sig Academy at some point this summer for a two day CCW course. Feel pretty good about that one, brought another good guy into the fold. :)

I am fortunate to work at a gun shop that does business with both military and law enforcement, but the most rewarding is helping customers exactly like the woman you describe. March 2020 onward saw a deluge of that type of potential gun owner coming into the store wanting something to protect themselves and their loved ones. I can't tell you how many of them told me that the reason they came to this store in particular is because it doesn't have the kind of mindset/attitude that you describe (SKS into Starbucks), tattoed bearded bald guys talking down to potential customers new to the scene, etc. It really drove home how much perception and attitude plays into who joins the fold of gun owners.

[Jim Watson]

I have only attended a few classes but a lot of matches.
Either way, my Colt 1991A1, STI 2011, S&W Plastic M&P, and CZ75 "pre-B" have been trouble free.
I see other brands doing well, but the only Glock I can shoot reasonably well is my little G43 hideout gun; got a 248x250 at GSSF yesterday. Only good for third place after a couple of cleans, but oh, well.

But Bubba and hot rod shop clients still attend, and there is a lot of waykewl stuff that impairs operation. Or at least costs money better spent on training and practice.

Most regular match shooters have pretty well debugged their pistols, their modifications are proven. Most, not all. I do have a gun I have been struggling with. It shoots so well when it is right as to be worth the effort to me. It was 100% the last time out, so maybe I have it fixed. Another guy at the same range has gotten real good at clearing malfunctions, I don't know if he is working on the gun afterwards.

[HCM]

I took MAG40 about a year ago. The second two days of the class were the range days, and instructions were to bring 500 rounds of ammo. I had ammo left over, so we didn't shoot that much. One guy in the class had a tricked out Gucci Glock that would not run. If I remember correctly, his son gave it to him as a gift. The other guy who had problems in the class was shooting a Nighthawk War Hawk. You could look at that gun in the holster and tell in a fraction of a second that it was an expensive gun. It was absolutely gorgeous, but it wouldn't run. During one of the breaks, I asked to take a look at his mags, and it was obvious to me that one was dimensionally different from the other. The guy was not pleased. I don't teach and taken less than a dozen classes. I can't remember any other problem guns off hand. A few years ago ~90% of the pistols in class were Glocks. The last class I took had a lot of P320s in it.

I like "nice" things as much as the next guy, but I just can't see paying $3K to $4K for a pistol that doesn't run as well as the G19 I bought for $398.00 using my GSSF certificate on second amendment tax free weekend. I have SCDs on all my Glocks and decent sights, so all total I have maybe $600 in the gun. The G19.5 that I took to that class has just shy of 8K rounds through it with no malfunctions or failures to fire. I changed some parts out a 5K rounds, and will again at 10K. In terms of function, I don't know what else a person could want.

Re: Nice things.

I’m curious how much the NH was shot /used before the class.

IME there are two types of people who buy “nice” (meaning high quality /expensive guns:

People who buy them for hard / high volume / frequent use.

People who buy them and treat them like faberge eggs.

Mike Pannonne recently made a social media post about how one needs to go out and do hard things regularly in order to maintain the capacity to do hard things when the need arises. I think a using your gear is a similar concept. You need to pressure test yourself and your gear in classes / matches etc to find issues, including those which only manifest under stress.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CblKekEAM6p/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[pangloss]

Re: Nice things.

I’m curious how much the NH was shot /used before the class.

IME there are two types of people who buy “nice” (meaning high quality /expensive guns:

People who buy them for hard / high volume / frequent use.

People who buy them and treat them like faberge eggs.

Mike Pannonne recently made a social media post about how one needs to go out and do hard things regularly in order to maintain the capacity to do hard things when the need arises. I think a using your gear is a similar concept. You need to pressure test yourself and your gear in classes / matches etc to find issues, including those which only manifest under stress.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CblKekEAM6p/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

All good points. If I remember correctly, the NH was very new. I want to say he got the pistol that week, but I can't remember for sure. However, the owner didn't strike me as the kind of guy who valued the form of the pistol more than its function. Pistol problems aside, he was a good shooter relative to the rest of the class. I think his mistake was taking an unvetted pistol/mags to a class and then having to focus on trying to get the pistol to run instead of course content.

When I was a kid, I remember reading some early 20th century Africana comparing the robustness of Mauser actions to Lee-Enfields under field conditions. Under ideal conditions, Mausers were super smooth with tight actions and nice triggers. Lee-Enfields were sloppy with lots of play in them. However, once you get a bit of sand in the actions, the bolts in the Mausers would bind up while the Enfields could keep functioning. I think that the Gen5 Glocks are pretty close to the point of optimization on the form vs function curve. I know the NH was better by every metric if you look at craftsmanship and manufacturing and tolerances, but all of those improvements have a downside. Having said all of that, I've never shot a pistol that costs close to that much, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

[babypanther]

When still working BP I cannot remember witnessing during academy or quarterly quals and training any gun issues with the P2000 and good ammo that weren’t shooter induced. The only gun issue I recall was one ATV unit Agent took a bad fall one night and knocked his rear sight out of alignment. He showed up to quals and wondered why his shot group moved.

Now at my current agency for 7 years and as an FI, i cannot remember witnessing any guns have issues that weren’t;
1. Mostly stock
2. Mostly lubed
3. Fed decent ammunition

Most issues i have seen are related to the shooter, and usually with newer shooters when we take them to the range pre academy for some basic gun handling and policy stuff.

In my area cops typically shoot Glocks. We (S.O.) are shooting G5 G17’s, PD is shooting G45’s and we have a lot of FBI personnel on the Arsenal now.


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[19852+]

I have attended two high round count courses, at least they were high count for me. Back when ammo was much, much cheaper.. Both around 900 rounds in 5-6 hours. In one class I used my own reloads exclusively, in the other I used a case of Wolf 9mm that I had [pretty sure I paid $98.99 for it....]. Both were CZ 9mm pistols, a Pre-B 75 and a 75 PCR, both functioned flawlessly, zero broken parts.

I've done at least two 2000 round tests with my Colt .38 Super, one using reloads, the other with factory ammo. The Colt passed easily, zero broken parts. I ran tests prior to the two successful tests that showed me some flaws in ammo, magazine selection and lubrication. With what I learned I went on to the previously mentioned successful tests.

The 75 PRC is sadly no longer with me and the Pre-B is semi retired. The Colt Super is my favorite pistol and goes with me every time I hit the range.

[45dotACP]

Last high round count class I went to the only really problematic gun was a sig 320 that had very clearly been worked on. One of those joints with a tungsten filled frame and a trigger that was lighter than the 3.5lb 1911 trigger I was running.

I think the excuse was something about the recoil spring being too light or the extended mags weren't working correctly.

My Springfield, incidentally, ran just fine. I failed to fully seat a mag once and that was the extent of my problems.

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[JAD]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.
Not many, but a few. I saw a small female officer limp wrist a S&W649 to failure; that took determination.

[SwampDweller]

Not many, but a few. I saw a small female officer limp wrist a S&W649 to failure; that took determination.

How do you limp wrist a revolver? :eek:

[JAD]

How do you limp wrist a revolver? :eek:

By which I meant 6946.

[revchuck38]

By which I meant 6946.

Brain fade from fasting? :)

[SwampDweller]

By which I meant 6946.

Oh! Well I guess it goes to show that even all-metal pistols can be limp wristed.

[JAD]

Brain fade from fasting? :)

That way we all get to remember His suffering.

[Mitch]

Do you all see many "limp wristing" occurrences at training? In my experience I have not.

Only one. A Glock 22 with a TLR1 on it. I think Gen 3, but this was about 8 years ago so my memory is a little hazy. Student kept having failures to feed, instructor grabbed the gun and it ran fine for him. This was at the end of day 2 so I’m betting the student was wearing out.

Only guns I’ve seen go down are a Kimber 1911 and a Glock 19 with a Zev trigger. That Glock barely made it a half hour. Every stock Glock or even stock gun (other than the Kimber) ran fine.

[TCinVA]

This is more of an academic exercise than anything, but it's something I've been thinking about.

To those who either teach or frequently attend (or used to) pistol training classes with relatively brisk round counts on a regular basis (ie, 1-2k+ rounds in a weekend), what brands/models of pistols seem to be the most reliable/durable in aggregate?

Which ones tend to have the least stoppages/breakages/etc? Of course maintenance plays a part in this but I'm just talking about in general.

I remember reading an article ToddG posted many years ago talking about the many breakages/stoppages he'd see with CZ pistols in his classes (which surprised me), and I was wanting to see if any instructors, assistants, students, or just people at training classes a lot see that works well in large enough numbers to be notable.

In 20+ years of formal firearms training the following have generally exhibited the fewest problems:

- unmolested Glock pistols in 9mm
- unmolested M&P pistols in 9mm
- Beretta 92 pistols that have been maintained
- H&K P30 pistols
- Pre-Cohen Sig P229 pistols

CZ pistols are becoming more common, but tend to be a fairly small minority of guns coming to defensive oriented classes.

"1911" pattern pistols are popular, but vary so wildly that every gun is a law unto itself.

Ammunition and magazines usually cause more problems than the pistol itself does. Magazines need to be cleaned occasionally and magazine springs need to be changed occasionally to keep them in working order. That almost never happens. People seem to hate the idea of spring changes in general, though I'm not sure why...and that's resulted in watching more than one Glock top end go flying down range because the takedown spring gave up the ghost and the takedown lever left the chat during recoil.

People also seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. This is especially true of Glock owners because I guess they think that it'll offend Gaston if they put some lube on their gun. In just about every class I've ever been in I hear the distinctive chirp a Glock pistol makes when its bone dry parts rub against each other as the slide cycles. This is often happening because they believe that lubrication "attracts dirt"...which is stupid.

To quote my friend Ashton Ray, lubrication has no magnetic, gravitational, or static attraction force to accomplish that.

What lubrication can do is break up contaminants and fouling, encapsulate them so that the metal parts glide over them, and ultimately flow them out of the critical parts of the action...assuming the lubrication being used doesn't suck. Which if it isn't some goofy shit that claims you need to essentially season your pistol made of stainless steel like it's a cast-iron skillet or RemOil, it probably doesn't suck all that bad.

Point being I've seen a lot of problems on the range, but the sizeable majority of them have been related to the manufacture of ammunition or because of the error center located between the gun and the ground. If you use good ammo and maintain your firearm your odds that it will work well are greatly increased.

[SwampDweller]

In 20+ years of formal firearms training the following have generally exhibited the fewest problems:

- unmolested Glock pistols in 9mm
- unmolested M&P pistols in 9mm
- Beretta 92 pistols that have been maintained
- H&K P30 pistols
- Pre-Cohen Sig P229 pistols

CZ pistols are becoming more common, but tend to be a fairly small minority of guns coming to defensive oriented classes.

"1911" pattern pistols are popular, but vary so wildly that every gun is a law unto itself.

Ammunition and magazines usually cause more problems than the pistol itself does. Magazines need to be cleaned occasionally and magazine springs need to be changed occasionally to keep them in working order. That almost never happens. People seem to hate the idea of spring changes in general, though I'm not sure why...and that's resulted in watching more than one Glock top end go flying down range because the takedown spring gave up the ghost and the takedown lever left the chat during recoil.

People also seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. This is especially true of Glock owners because I guess they think that it'll offend Gaston if they put some lube on their gun. In just about every class I've ever been in I hear the distinctive chirp a Glock pistol makes when its bone dry parts rub against each other as the slide cycles. This is often happening because they believe that lubrication "attracts dirt"...which is stupid.

To quote my friend Ashton Ray, lubrication has no magnetic, gravitational, or static attraction force to accomplish that.

What lubrication can do is break up contaminants and fouling, encapsulate them so that the metal parts glide over them, and ultimately flow them out of the critical parts of the action...assuming the lubrication being used doesn't suck. Which if it isn't some goofy shit that claims you need to essentially season your pistol made of stainless steel like it's a cast-iron skillet or RemOil, it probably doesn't suck all that bad.

Point being I've seen a lot of problems on the range, but the sizeable majority of them have been related to the manufacture of ammunition or because of the error center located between the gun and the ground. If you use good ammo and maintain your firearm your odds that it will work well are greatly increased.

The data is appreciated. I find it interesting that the answers on which guns hold up the best is fairly uniform. That says something.

[4RNR]

.

Ammunition and magazines usually cause more problems than the pistol itself does. Magazines need to be cleaned occasionally and magazine springs need to be changed occasionally to keep them in working order. That almost never happens. People seem to hate the idea of spring changes in general, though I'm not sure why...and that's resulted in watching more than one Glock top end go flying down range because the takedown spring gave up the ghost and the takedown lever left the chat during recoil.

People also seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. This is especially true of Glock owners because I guess they think that it'll offend Gaston if they put some lube on their gun. In just about every class I've ever been in I hear the distinctive chirp a Glock pistol makes when its bone dry parts rub against each other as the slide cycles. This is often happening because they believe that lubrication "attracts dirt"...which is stupid.

To quote my friend Ashton Ray, lubrication has no magnetic, gravitational, or static attraction force to accomplish that.

What lubrication can do is break up contaminants and fouling, encapsulate them so that the metal parts glide over them, and ultimately flow them out of the critical parts of the action...assuming the lubrication being used doesn't suck. Which if it isn't some goofy shit that claims you need to essentially season your pistol made of stainless steel like it's a cast-iron skillet or RemOil, it probably doesn't suck all that bad.

Point being I've seen a lot of problems on the range, but the sizeable majority of them have been related to the manufacture of ammunition or because of the error center located between the gun and the ground. If you use good ammo and maintain your firearm your odds that it will work well are greatly increased.

Ha!

That describes me. Not into cleaning. Large portion of my firearm interest lies in the shooting part. Ideally I would have my own personal armorer guy who would hand me a gun when I go out, and coming in I would hand it back. Eventually I get around to it. Usually a quick wipe and a few drops of oil. Also the reason why I have a ton of surplus ammo but rarely shoot it.

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[TCinVA]

Ha!

That describes me. Not into cleaning. Large portion of my firearm interest lies in the shooting part. Ideally I would have my own personal armorer guy who would hand me a gun when I go out, and coming in I would hand it back. Eventually I get around to it. Usually a quick wipe and a few drops of oil. Also the reason why I have a ton of surplus ammo but rarely shoot it.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

Cleaning guns is a chore and I only undertake it when absolutely necessary. The carry gun gets wiped down more frequently, but everything else gets cleaned maybe once a year.

That's fine. Most guns will run when they are dirty...IF they are lubricated.

So clean rarely, but lubricate frequently.

And change springs when you're supposed to.

[19852+]

Cleaning guns is a chore and I only undertake it when absolutely necessary. The carry gun gets wiped down more frequently, but everything else gets cleaned maybe once a year.

That's fine. Most guns will run when they are dirty...IF they are lubricated.

So clean rarely, but lubricate frequently.

And change springs when you're supposed to.

That's what I learned with my previously mentioned Colt .38 Super Auto.
Lube: Frog Lube is a good surface rust preventative but it became sticky, gummy when dirty when used as a primary lube.
Good springs go with good ammo. When I tried some bunny fart reloads [of my own making] I had to use lighter springs. Lighter springs don't provide enough push when things get dirty = malfunction.
What I came back to was: full power ammo with full strength springs provide enough power for operation under adverse conditions. Use lube, if it gets dirty then you have slippery dirt. Quality mags, seems obvious but after testing I use the mags that work for actual shooting, the rest are good for dry fire with snap caps.
My best test to date; Desert Brutality 2021, we rolled around in the moon dust for two days. My pistol never hinted at malfunction [neither did my rifle, same principles apply].

[JonInWA]

Ha!

That describes me. Not into cleaning. Large portion of my firearm interest lies in the shooting part. Ideally I would have my own personal armorer guy who would hand me a gun when I go out, and coming in I would hand it back. Eventually I get around to it. Usually a quick wipe and a few drops of oil. Also the reason why I have a ton of surplus ammo but rarely shoot it.

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There's a reason the British Army used to have designated batmen to attend to such tasks for their officers...

Best, Jon

[BillSWPA]

In 20+ years of formal firearms training the following have generally exhibited the fewest problems:

- unmolested Glock pistols in 9mm
- unmolested M&P pistols in 9mm
- Beretta 92 pistols that have been maintained
- H&K P30 pistols
- Pre-Cohen Sig P229 pistols

CZ pistols are becoming more common, but tend to be a fairly small minority of guns coming to defensive oriented classes.

"1911" pattern pistols are popular, but vary so wildly that every gun is a law unto itself.

Ammunition and magazines usually cause more problems than the pistol itself does. Magazines need to be cleaned occasionally and magazine springs need to be changed occasionally to keep them in working order. That almost never happens. People seem to hate the idea of spring changes in general, though I'm not sure why...and that's resulted in watching more than one Glock top end go flying down range because the takedown spring gave up the ghost and the takedown lever left the chat during recoil.

People also seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. This is especially true of Glock owners because I guess they think that it'll offend Gaston if they put some lube on their gun. In just about every class I've ever been in I hear the distinctive chirp a Glock pistol makes when its bone dry parts rub against each other as the slide cycles. This is often happening because they believe that lubrication "attracts dirt"...which is stupid.

To quote my friend Ashton Ray, lubrication has no magnetic, gravitational, or static attraction force to accomplish that.

What lubrication can do is break up contaminants and fouling, encapsulate them so that the metal parts glide over them, and ultimately flow them out of the critical parts of the action...assuming the lubrication being used doesn't suck. Which if it isn't some goofy shit that claims you need to essentially season your pistol made of stainless steel like it's a cast-iron skillet or RemOil, it probably doesn't suck all that bad.

Point being I've seen a lot of problems on the range, but the sizeable majority of them have been related to the manufacture of ammunition or because of the error center located between the gun and the ground. If you use good ammo and maintain your firearm your odds that it will work well are greatly increased.

I change recoil springs frequently, but other than firing pin springs, I have not typically changed much else. I have had a Glock slide lock spring break. How often should this and other springs be changed?


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[Jim Watson]

There's a reason the British Army used to have designated batmen to attend to such tasks for their officers...

Best, Jon

I recall John Taylor saying to clean your own express rifle, don't trust it to your gun bearer.

[ST911]

Dean Caputo's MEAL acronym is true for handguns as well as ARs. Useful. For those unfamiliar...mags, extractor, ammo, lube.

Saying 1911 is like saying AR15, both nearly meaningless without additional detail.

Best way to ruin a Glock is to "improve" it. A highly modified Glock isn't a Glock, it's just Glock-ish. Applies to other brands as well. Years ago, intros at a class involved the usual "what gun ammo did you bring" question. Some dudes running tricked out Glocks from some Uberkewl Kustom shop got their nose out of joint when the instructor asked if they brought spare guns.

I don't think much of M&P 9s, but I'll take a wet M9/92, older 226/228/229, or several HKs.

Most full size production guns in factory spec will do at least okay.

Carry guns get cleaned. Training guns relubed until there's a reason to clean them.

[TCinVA]

I change recoil springs frequently, but other than firing pin springs, I have not typically changed much else. I have had a Glock slide lock spring break. How often should this and other springs be changed?


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You rarely see hard and fast rules about that from manufacturers because they're afraid that another company will say whatever their number is + 3,000 to make it look like their gun is cheaper to run and more durable.

Right around 10,000 rounds through my Gen5 G17 pistols I replaced everything including the striker assembly. That means RSA, trigger return spring, magazine release spring, slide stop/lock & spring, disassembly lever spring, extractor & extractor spring. Not because the gun was falling apart, but because my goal here is preventing the gun from breaking something when I need it. In that round count I encountered a couple of magazine related stoppages which indicated the magazine springs on my training magazines needed to be replaced as well. (I keep my carry magazines separate and don't use them in training)

If you are trying to get the maximum possible service out of every part of the gun, you won't want to use my schedule.

If you are trying to ensure the gun runs as reliably as possible, replacing the RSA proactively every 5,000-7,000 rounds, everything else at 10K, and the magazine springs in the magazines you use the most at 5,000-7,000 through the gun (not the magazine, as it will only have a fraction of that round count but the loading/unloading cycles will take their toll on the spring) will likely get you there.

[foxj66]

I will give some feedback on the CZ side of things. I have attended a couple of classes and prior to ammo and primers skyrocketing I would occasionally shoot 1k rounds in a weekend.

With the shadow 2

I tend to get around 30k rounds out of the new trigger springs. They generally break in my dryfire/training gun about once a year and I replace them in both guns. Slide stops tend to go between 25-30k rounds. I also replace extractors once a year and haven't personally had one break. I keep my guns well lubed and add oil as needed to my training guns.

As far as cleaning I generally clean the match gun before a large major and clean my training gun when it starts having issues or the slide starts to get sluggish. If you are talking a standard 75/SP-01 i would expect similar numbers minus the firing pin retaining pin as those can be damaged in dry fire.

[claymore504]

I will give some feedback on the CZ side of things. I have attended a couple of classes and prior to ammo and primers skyrocketing I would occasionally shoot 1k rounds in a weekend.

With the shadow 2

I tend to get around 30k rounds out of the new trigger springs. They generally break in my dryfire/training gun about once a year and I replace them in both guns. Slide stops tend to go between 25-30k rounds. I also replace extractors once a year and haven't personally had one break. I keep my guns well lubed and add oil as needed to my training guns.

As far as cleaning I generally clean the match gun before a large major and clean my training gun when it starts having issues or the slide starts to get sluggish. If you are talking a standard 75/SP-01 i would expect similar numbers minus the firing pin retaining pin as those can be damaged in dry fire.

Good to hear that the newer trigger springs are lasting that long. Are you talking bout factory CZ or CGW springs though? Good to hear on the slide stops as well. Any experience with the P09?

[foxj66]

Good to hear that the newer trigger springs are lasting that long. Are you talking bout factory CZ or CGW springs though? Good to hear on the slide stops as well. Any experience with the P09?

I use the factory shadow 2 trigger return springs as I like the reset better and dont chase super light triggers.

I havent owned a P09 but have been around enough of them that I would only be concerned with the firing pin retaining pin compared to the steel guns. I really dont see many of them come back for issues.

[Jeff22]

“I really had to pivot to the audience I was addressing here, and try to understand what they really NEEDED TO KNOW rather than what I thought I wanted to teach them. Safety and fundamentals, not high-speed low-drag stuff.”
-falnovice

Exactly.

I taught firearms at the local regional police academy for a total of 13 years and all of us instructors had to fight the inclination to provide more information than our students were ready to absorb.

All shooters would be well advised to replace the recoil spring assembly and magazine springs at whatever interval the manufacturer recommends.

[rob_s]

My experience may be dated as I haven’t attended formal training in years and only sporadicly attended matches.

But given a baseline of “known good” (Glock, 6920, etc.) and excluding known-bad (such as the original S&W Sigmas, for example), the single biggest factor in reliability I’ve seen was always the relative level of fiddle-fuck, with the greater the amount of FF the lower the reliability. This proved true of pistols, ARs, shotguns, practical rifles… even AKs.

I can’t imagine much has changed. Other than maybe saturated markets and social media ad campaigns making it harder to figure “known good”

[Jim Watson]

Our tiny little match yesterday had two out of seven guns get through the afternoon without malfunction. My revolver and a friend's Shield Plus that he won as a big match prize.

I am pretty sure that three of the other five failed on low quality reloads. I don't know about the other two, although I suspect a ladyfinger grip by a lady shooter for one.

[YVK]

With the shadow 2

Slide stops tend to go between 25-30k rounds

I've just recently broke one at a record low 6000 rounds since replacement, and have not had one last longer than 14k. Carry Optics guns with SROs, one mounted by CGW actually.

[foxj66]

I've just recently broke one at a record low 6000 rounds since replacement, and have not had one last longer than 14k. Carry Optics guns with SROs, one mounted by CGW actually.

That's surprisingly fast. What weight recoil spring are you running? I use the slim slide stops exclusively but I cant image they last longer than the stock ones.

[YVK]

That's surprisingly fast. What weight recoil spring are you running? I use the slim slide stops exclusively but I cant image they last longer than the stock ones.

10 or 11 lbs. The 6K broken one was the first slim stop I've ever used. I've two guns, the slim stop on the second is about same round count, so far holding up.
I use shock buffs too but can't say that they make difference. Thin oem shock buffs barely last anyway.

[foxj66]

10 or 11 lbs. The 6K broken one was the first slim stop I've ever used. I've two guns, the slim stop on the second is about same round count, so far holding up.
I use shock buffs too but can't say that they make difference. Thin oem shock buffs barely last anyway.

I have never used a shock buff, if they are only breaking that quick in one gun I would send it back to my warranty team so they can take a look as it and make sure something isnt wrong. I also use 11lb recoil spring and run them way longer than I should.

If you decide to send it in shoot me a PM and I will let the gun smith know its coming and why.

[YVK]

I have never used a shock buff, if they are only breaking that quick in one gun I would send it back to my warranty team so they can take a look as it and make sure something isnt wrong. I also use 11lb recoil spring and run them way longer than I should.

If you decide to send it in shoot me a PM and I will let the gun smith know its coming and why.

No, it is not one gun, it is both. Perhaps the one that broke early was an outlier, we'll see. I know others who had the same 10-15K life span on these, I would be ok with those intervals.

My slides have lightening cuts, owing to old 45 oz weight limit, and I run them at speeds that exceed my abilities. Don't know if that plays a role but it does seem harder on them. For example, I cant keep front sights in place. I'm going to keep watching this and see what happens for now, but I do appreciate the offer.

[Clusterfrack]

YVK, that’s really different from my experience with 3 Shadow2s with ~ 100k total. I replaced one shock buff at over 50k, and it wasn’t even totally worn out.

Slide stops last > 15k, and I think my record is 33k.

I use 12# red CGW recoil springs.

PF ~ 130-135

One front sight has an enlarged hole and needed locktite. That’s it.

[foxj66]

No, it is not one gun, it is both. Perhaps the one that broke early was an outlier, we'll see. I know others who had the same 10-15K life span on these, I would be ok with those intervals.

My slides have lightening cuts, owing to old 45 oz weight limit, and I run them at speeds that exceed my abilities. Don't know if that plays a role but it does seem harder on them. For example, I cant keep front sights in place. I'm going to keep watching this and see what happens for now, but I do appreciate the offer.

My old CO slides were lighten by cajun, I dont run front sights on CO guns so I havent seen that but my old production guns never showed issues keeping the front sight in place (shoot oranges now, they use the bushing and a set screw)

Is your ammo extremely hot? I load 115s to around 135pf

[YVK]

Thicker buffs do last longer but thin ones maybe a 1000 rounds item for me.

Maybe it is my toxic personality. I even broke one Shadow2 frame, that was before they started doing those stress relief cuts. That failure, though, made me believe that slide stops are pretty stressed on Shadow2.
I do know people, though, whose experiences have led to a practice of keeping a "match slide stop" or at least a "major match slide stop".




Is your ammo extremely hot? I load 115s to around 135pf

Variable. I don't reload and I use either 115 or 150 Federal ammo. I have used a pretty hot ammo, like Lawman or Norma, for practice.

[foxj66]

Thicker buffs do last longer but thin ones maybe a 1000 rounds item for me.

Maybe it is my toxic personality. I even broke one Shadow2 frame, that was before they started doing those stress relief cuts. That failure, though, made me believe that slide stops are pretty stressed on Shadow2.
I do know people, though, whose experiences have led to a practice of keeping a "match slide stop" or at least a "major match slide stop".



Variable. I don't reload and I use either 115 or 150 Federal ammo. I have used a pretty hot ammo, like Lawman or Norma, for practice.

Its a good idea to do that if you shoot your match gun outside of majors. I just replace the slide stop in both guns when my practice gun needs a new one.

The early frames would crack at high round counts, havent seen an updated frame come back with a crack, but I am sure its possible. The slide stop takes a beating but is also designed to break before the barrel feet do.

[gato naranja]

The slide stop takes a beating but is also designed to break before the barrel feet do.

"Bulletproof" is a great marketing claim for small parts, but it loses its lustre when a $30 boutique component survives at the expense of a barrel, slide or serial-numbered component.

[Jim Watson]

In a bygone era of IPSC, the hot item was an overloaded CZ75 9x21 power factor 175+. Slide stops were definitely a wear item. Some shooters just carried a baggie of rods as replacements. No need for an actual slide stop. I don't know how they were retained.

[PD Sgt.]

Well, I just finished two back to back classes over about one week. In the first, myself and two co-workers went through about 1,100 rounds each over two days, and the rest of the class seemed similar. I don’t recall seeing any significant weapon issues for anyone. The majority of the class had Glocks, a few M&Ps, and one LTT Centurion with a SRO I believe. I was using my work G5 G17, as were my co-workers. Ammo was Federal 147g brass. While it was a lot dirtier than the old 124 Blazer Aluminum we used to use, all our pistols ran fine.

The second was about 1k even. I started with my work pistol but it was not liking the 115g Blazer Aluminum I was using up. The pistol ran fine, but was all over at 25 yards. I switched to a G5 G19 with RMR and shot fine the rest of the class. Everyone else seemed to run just fine, primarily some kind of Glock or M&P, with the majority being Glock. A couple Fed guys had some comped G17s with RMRs, and I did not see them have any issues.

Both classes everyone was shooting 9mm. In times past I would always see at least a couple .40s or maybe a .45, particularly in LE heavy classes, but I think those days may be over.

[mmc45414]

Reloaded ammo is a broad term. It is a huge variable but is one of those things that is only discussed when it doesn't work. Years ago I shot a G23 at an organized class that consumed about 1,800 rounds in three days (and yeah, by the third day I was wondering exactly why I didn't bring the G35). As part of the registration I asked about reloaded ammo and was welcomed to shoot my loads in my gun, but if they didn't work I would be asked to change ammo or step off. But at the end of the class there was no acknowledgement of this improbable feat that occurred eighteen hundred consecutive times, a bunch of tired people just packed up and left. Maybe the same as 1911s, we never talk about the ones that work, and shooting reloaded ammo through a 1911 would be like Crossing The Streams (it would be bad...) (https://youtu.be/9wrEEd1ajz4)but I have done it a bunch and it worked.

I think modifying guns is another broad term. Switching out a few things to some things that have been widely embraced and successful is not the same as throwing the whole Lone Wolf catalog at something. In early 2019 I picked up a new M&P 2.0 5" and did nothing to it other than change the sights and then shot it most every week until earlier this year, and other than the rifle primer experiment it just never failed. Now I have replaced it with an identical gun with a Apex trigger and barrel, and it has been perking along just as reliably. OTOH some of the full house striker guns are just over the top, like a modified vehicle with a huge turbo and a big nitrous shot that everyone other than the owner knows damn well is going to blow up someday... :cool: