Why choose to SBR vs AR pistol?

[GyroF-16]

So… I’m seeing the ATF writing on the wall, and thinking that any AR pistols that I have may soon need to have their braces removed.

I like the current “pistol” designation, as it allows me to have one in a bag, in a car, in most states, on the occasions that I find it useful.
But if braces are… “problematic” come August, I’m entertaining the idea that SBRing one or more or my lowers may be useful.

My biggest concern about doing the Form 1 to SBR is the literal registration. I’d be going on record with the Feds that I own a certain gun - forever.
I’m also put off by the restrictions for intra-state carry and inter-state travel.

So- to the P-F brethren-

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?

GJM
ASH556
StraitR
Clusterfrack

[GJM]

So… I’m seeing the ATF writing on the wall, and thinking that any AR pistols that I have may soon need to have their braces removed.

I like the current “pistol” designation, as it allows me to have one in a bag, in a car, in most states, on the occasions that I find it useful.
But if braces are… “problematic” come August, I’m entertaining the idea that SBRing one or more or my lowers may be useful.

My biggest concern about doing the Form 1 to SBR is the literal registration. I’d be going on record with the Feds that I own a certain gun - forever.
I’m also put off by the restrictions for intra-state carry and inter-state travel.

So- to the P-F brethren-

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?

GJM
ASH556
StraitR
Clusterfrack

All reasonable concerns. Given a braced pistol vs SBR, I prefer the braced pistol.

What is interesting, is if braces become verboten, do you SBR or run the pistol without a brace. I would probably have both, but travel with the pistol without a brace.

[GyroF-16]

Given a braced pistol vs SBR, I prefer the braced pistol.
….I would probably have both, but travel with the pistol without a brace.

Pretty much my thoughts.

Just wanting to know the implications of SBR that I hadn’t thought of yet.

[Wake27]

I’m willing to bet the people that want to know what type of guns you have, already know. I SBR’d and haven’t looked back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rawkguitarist]

I’m willing to bet the people that want to know what type of guns you have, already know. I SBR’d and haven’t looked back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup, agreed.

It may feel like "conspiracy theories" but its not. The federal law enforcement agencies have a process that uses the 4473 form to easily find what you own if they want to know. Also, don't quote me on it... but as I understand it *this* ATF has been gathering millions of 4473's from FFL's that closed shop. They've apparently been scanning them into PDF's.

OK... question at hand. I have a single no compromise AR pistol. All top shelf gear etc. If I can get to it, it will be the firearm I grab if the door gets kicked in. If it happens in August (which the Federal Register tells us it will) or not. At some point this extraconstitutional "law" will deem my AR pistol illegal with a brace on it.

I've already started the SBR process. Reluctantly......

[mmc45414]

As mentioned, in many states (including mine, OH) the CHL means CHandgunL, so a ready state in something like a van or camper would be a problem with an SBR.

I have mine without a brace, it seems goofy but it is pretty good with a sling.

But it might not be crazy to have both, and just have two lowers and switch to the pistol when the SBR might be a hassle (most of the expensive stuff is attached to the upper).

ETA:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220320/587990f36f2928c30bbc5ad7d0784f89.jpg

[rob_s]

Re: the feds “knowing”…

I was resistant to any NFA items initially for the same reason, and then someone pointed out that if I ever bought a gun on a 4473, there was already a record that I had “a” gun, which would pretty much land me on the list anyway.

Made sense to me and I haven’t worried about any paperwork in the ensuing 20+ years.

I figure if we ever actually got to a point of someone knocking on my door asking for my NFA item, we’re already pretty much screwed anyway.

[4RNR]

So… I’m seeing the ATF writing on the wall, and thinking that any AR pistols that I have may soon need to have their braces removed.

I like the current “pistol” designation, as it allows me to have one in a bag, in a car, in most states, on the occasions that I find it useful.
But if braces are… “problematic” come August, I’m entertaining the idea that SBRing one or more or my lowers may be useful.

My biggest concern about doing the Form 1 to SBR is the literal registration. I’d be going on record with the Feds that I own a certain gun - forever.
I’m also put off by the restrictions for intra-state carry and inter-state travel.

So- to the P-F brethren-

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?

GJM
ASH556
StraitR
Clusterfrack

Those who want to know what you have, know what you have, unless you bought it face to face..

1. I wanted
2. doesn't apply in my situation
3. Didn't apply in my situation. I bought someone else's SBR.

So basically because I wanted one. I don't travel outside of my state unless it work related and usually involves running over picking up a part and then back. Takes an hour maybe 2 round trip, almost all highway and that state is anti gun anyway. I don't have much of an interest in going to other states so traveling with a gun isn't on my list of things to be concerned about but if it were I would simply bring something else.

I have one brace and if some law were to pass I'd sell it. Have no interest doing another SBR and paying another $200. I bought it last March and it's seen 2 mags worth of ammo. So I'm not investing into it, for the sake of ownership, anymore then I already have

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

@gyro-f16,
I have some SBR lowers, and use them a lot. My home defense carbine is a 5.56 11.5” suppressed SBR. I also like competing with SBRs at carbine matches sometimes.

But, taking SBRs out of state is a PIA.

Braced pistol lowers as an SBR substitute seem risky legally, and are likely to be illegal soon IMO.

I am intrigued by the tube-only cheek pistol, and built one out of my pistol lower. But, this is going to require practice, and is no substitute for a real stocked carbine at any real distance.

So for me it’s SBR for the win, unless not legal.

[Kyle Reese]

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
I wanted a dedicated MK18 with a proper stock, and didn't feel like messing with a brace.

- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
Easy peasy for me. My FFL/SOT provided fingerprint cards, gratis, and I live in an NFA friendly state. I really only shoot it at one location in VA, so interstate travel isn't a thing, yet.

- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
I don't plan on changing calibers, so can't comment there.

- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?
Here's what I did;

*Selected a reliable lower to SBR. In my case, a factory BCM example.
*Saw my FFL/SOT and got copies of my fingerprint cards and took a digital passport photo.
*Went to Highflyer Arms in Warrenton, VA and got my lower engraved for $45.
*Went home, created an account on the DOJ's E-Form website and selected E-Form 1, and completed the application in under 10 minutes. I filed as an Individual. Trusts may take longer. You pay the $200 tax at the end of the application process.
*Mailed two copies of my fingerprint cards to the BATFE in WV, along with the required forms (you get those when you complete the application)
*Mailed the requisite notification form to my CLEO- in my case, the county sheriff. No action is required on their part.

My last stamp was approved in 10 days, door to door.

[LJP]

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?



For me, I just wanted one. As someone else said, if we ever get to the point of the feds knocking on my door, we’re well and truly screwed.
I’ve traveled with mine for training purposes, you just have to file the form 20 early enough. So it’s a planning issue.
I specifically SBR’d a “multi cal” marked lower. I know it doesn’t matter, but it’s an aesthetic issue for me. As I recall, you either need to be able to return the rifle to its original registered state, or change the Form 1. So I don’t see any reason why you couldn’t conceivably have multiple uppers, provided you kept the original it was registered with and provided you didn’t run into any constructive intent issues.
Yup, submit the paperwork and get the lower engraved.

[CleverNickname]

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?


- I have multiple short uppers for my M16 and if I just want to shoot in semi-auto it's nice to be able to swap on a several hundred dollar semi-auto lower instead of the M16. Also at the time when I started making SBRs, AR pistols weren't nearly as much of a thing because braces weren't invented yet.
- Travel is not particularly annoying. I can travel pretty far in Texas without going to another state, and a 5320.20 only takes 5 minutes to fill out if I want to take an SBR to another state. The ATF approves those relatively quickly compared to form 1's/4's (2-4 weeks).
- How long does it take for you to push two pins and swap an upper? If it's a "permanent" change, the ATF asks that you notify them, but there's no requirement to do so.
- That's pretty much it. Submitting an eForm1 requires fingerprints, but the ATF will send you the fingerprint cards free of charge, and there's nothing that says you can't take your own fingerprints so the cost is negligible. Also, I would suggest engraving it first, before approval.

[Bergeron]

Also, I would suggest engraving it first, before approval.

Following this thread with interest, and appreciate all the replies- may I ask why this order of operations is recommended?

[CleverNickname]

Following this thread with interest, and appreciate all the replies- may I ask why this order of operations is recommended?
1) If you send it somewhere to get it engraved (vs. somewhere local) and the lower gets lost in transit, then you've only lost a title I firearm instead of an SBR that you waited for forever.
2) If the engraver makes a mistake and misspells something then you can get it corrected before you submit the form 1, or you could use a different lower.

There's no legal issue with getting it engraved before approval; there's nothing preventing you from engraving your name and city/state on any firearm you own.

[jh9]

Re: the feds “knowing”…

I was resistant to any NFA items initially for the same reason, and then someone pointed out that if I ever bought a gun on a 4473, there was already a record that I had “a” gun, which would pretty much land me on the list anyway.

Yeah. Everyone here is on The List (tm).

If you're in this thread and pontificating about the "feds knowing" you've probably spent thousands of dollars at Brownells, or Midway or pick-a-gun-paraphernalia vendor. You probably have a state CCW/LTC/whatever. You probably have a USPSA/IDPA/NRA membership. Etc. You probably paid for them all with a card. Though in the latter cases cash/check/whatever doesn't matter.

Your financial records that get packaged and sold by your bank loudly indicates that you "have guns" (amongst other things). That's not really conspiracy-grade snark. This (https://www.bankofamerica.com/security-center/consumer-privacy-notice/) is Bank of America because they were the first search result. Plug in your bank/CU's name and "U.S. Consumer Privacy Notice" then look at the "can you limit sharing" column. Count up the "no" answers. Your transaction history is a product. That includes your gun-related transactions.

Getting down to the nitty gritty of exactly which guns you own outside of states with registration is a data problem that is almost unsolveable. Hell if you go back a couple decades I don't even have legitimate memory much less paper records of who I sold what to. And I'm not legally obligated to. So, it's a matter of "has guns" or "doesn't has guns". You all fit in the former category. The end. If "they" come knocking, they're not going to clean you out of the guns "they" know about and then leave you with your "off paper" FTF buy, or your Polymer80 build, or whatever.

Like they don't know about the Polymer80 kit you bought with a credit card but somehow do know about the paper 4473 you filled out 20 years and 3 moves ago that you only kept for a year and has changed hands a dozen times since. Your handful of NFA lowers being registered changes almost literally nothing.

[CleverNickname]

If "they" come knocking, they're not going to clean you out of the guns "they" know about and then leave you with your "off paper" FTF buy, or your Polymer80 build, or whatever.

That's where large-diameter PVC pipes, cosmoline and a shovel should already be in your plans.

[jh9]

That's where large-diameter PVC pipes, cosmoline and a shovel should already be in your plans.

Which could contain either a 4473'd gun you "lost", sold, "sold-wink-wink-nudge-nudge", "lost in a boating accident" or something built from a P80 kit you paid for in cash while wearing a trenchcoat and a fake mustache. It's all the same.

[TC215]

Yup, agreed.

It may feel like "conspiracy theories" but its not. The federal law enforcement agencies have a process that uses the 4473 form to easily find what you own if they want to know.

Not what you own, what you’ve purchased (if it was purchased or transferred through an FFL).

The ATF does the gun traces. They can be requested by any local, state, or federal agency.

[Paul Blackburn]

Easy button; for travel your CCW is your primary. That being said a 16" AR broken down and stowed in such away that it can be made ready quickly is legal almost everywhere. Not as cool but...has anyone here resorted to their a AR pistol, SBR, or carbine for self defense while traveling?

[GyroF-16]

Not what you own, what you’ve purchased (if it was purchased or transferred through an FFL).

The ATF does the gun traces. They can be requested by any local, state, or federal agency.

Speaking (writing) precisely - if a gun type and S/N is known, it can be traced to me if purchased involving a 4473.
Or “LE has gun, can find my name”


My concern is going on record that I own a particular gun- that is knowing my name, they can come up with a type and S/N, which is the reverse- “LE has my name, can find type and S/N”.

Do I have that right?

Just of more concern to me with an NFA item, easily becoming a politically “dangerous item that nobody should be allowed to own”.

[TC215]

Speaking (writing) precisely - if a gun type and S/N is known, it can be traced to me if purchased involving a 4473.
Or “LE has gun, can find my name”


My concern is going on record that I own a particular gun- that is knowing my name, they can come up with a type and S/N, which is the reverse- “LE has my name, can find type and S/N”.

Do I have that right?

As far as the ATF goes, once they get a firearm and S/N, they start with the manufacturer, then the distributor, and then the dealer that sold the firearm. I am not aware of any process where the ATF can figure out the guns purchased by an individual based on the individual’s name.

This may not be the case if a local jurisdiction or state has some sort of registry.

[TGS]

It may feel like "conspiracy theories" but its not. The federal law enforcement agencies have a process that uses the 4473 form to easily find what you own if they want to know.

As a fed, I'd really like to be let in on this secretive process.

[ASH556]

So- to the P-F brethren-

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?

GJM
ASH556
StraitR
Clusterfrack

My SBR is on a Form 4. I got it before braces were invented. I like it and would do it again. I’ve never had the desire to swap calibers but have reconfigured the upper several times. No comment on the rest.

[rawkguitarist]

Not what you own, what you’ve purchased (if it was purchased or transferred through an FFL).

The ATF does the gun traces. They can be requested by any local, state, or federal agency.

Thanks for the clarification of the federal agency that does the tracing. Of course I meant anything you own purchased with a 4473. The point is, in general what the average gun owner possess has a 4473 attached to it........

[rawkguitarist]

As a fed, I'd really like to be let in on this secretive process.

Guys, I’m not in law enforcement. So if I use imprecise wording, sorry. I didn’t say it was secret. There is a tracing process that everyone is aware of. That’s all I’m referring to.

[TGS]

Guys, I’m not in law enforcement. So if I use imprecise wording, sorry. I didn’t say it was secret. There is a tracing process that everyone is aware of. That’s all I’m referring to.

It doesn't work the way you're portraying it as, however, and it's not "easy".

There's no way for me to look up what guns you own. If I have a make/model/serial number, I can submit that to see who it was sold to. That's about it. There is no database that allows me to use your name as a search parameter for what guns are associated with it.

[WobblyPossum]

To further expand on what a few others have mentioned, tracing a firearm only gets you to the first retail sale that took place via 4473. Then you’ve got to do actual investigative work like interviewing that buyer to find out who they sold it to, and then that next person to see who they sold it to and so on and so forth. If you bought a new gun from an FFL and, if I know the make, model, and serial number, I can contact the ATF and they’ll let me know that you were the first retail buyer and then I can come to you to talk about that gun. If you bought a gun face to face from an individual, or you bought a used gun from an FFL so that you aren’t the first retail purchaser of that firearm, submitting the make, model, and serial number to the ATF doesn’t get me your name.

[Clusterfrack]

Easy button; for travel your CCW is your primary. That being said a 16" AR broken down and stowed in such away that it can be made ready quickly is legal almost everywhere. Not as cool but...has anyone here resorted to their a AR pistol, SBR, or carbine for self defense while traveling?

I like to have an AR when I’m overlanding / camping in the backcountry, and smaller is better. Sometimes that activity involves crossing state lines.

[JCN]

I like to have an AR when I’m overlanding / camping in the backcountry, and smaller is better. Sometimes that activity involves crossing state lines.

So a couple things I found out and utilized:

1. SBR from a commercial pistol or rifle donor doesn’t need a new serial number engraved. You use the factory number.

2. When requesting interstate travel, you can request a large block of time. Consequently I currently have approval to take my SBR to all of the neighboring states for 12 months as I see fit.

I use them for competition and requested travel to the neighboring state ranges for the duration of 12 months.

Next winter I’ll submit the same forms via email with the dates updated.

[GyroF-16]

Okay- so say I have an SBR’d lower.
It I remove the stock, leaving a bare RE, is it a pistol, for purposes of carry under my CCW, and for crossing state lines?

Which is to say, once the SBR paperwork is done, do I have to ask permission from the ATF to cross state lines with that lower in any configuration, or only if it’s configured as an SBR at the time?

Also - ASH556
I’m curious as to the situation where a Form 4 would be used for an SBR.

[GyroF-16]

So a couple things I found out and utilized:

1. SBR from a commercial pistol or rifle donor doesn’t need a new serial number engraved. You use the factory number.
.

Seriously?

Then why is engraving such a common part of NFA item ownership?
Don’t most SBR’s start as commercially made rifles or pistols?

To be clear, I like the idea of NOT having to have my name engraved on a receiver, if this is a legit option.

[JCN]

Seriously?

Then why is engraving such a common part of NFA item ownership?
Don’t most SBR’s start as commercially made rifles or pistols?

To be clear, I like the idea of NOT having to have my name engraved on a receiver, if this is a legit option.

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/atf-nfa-engraving-requirements-walk-through-guide

If you have a nonserialized lower you’re the manufacturer and have to engrave info.

If you buy something off the shelf commercially and SBR it you’re the Maker and not manufacturer.

86329

[GyroF-16]

https://www.nationalguntrusts.com/blogs/nfa-gun-trust-atf-information-database-blog/atf-nfa-engraving-requirements-walk-through-guide

If you have a nonserialized lower you’re the manufacturer and have to engrave info.

If you buy something off the shelf commercially and SBR it you’re the Maker and not manufacturer.

86329

Thanks!

[CleverNickname]

Then why is engraving such a common part of NFA item ownership?
Don’t most SBR’s start as commercially made rifles or pistols?

To be clear, I like the idea of NOT having to have my name engraved on a receiver, if this is a legit option.

You can re-use the serial number that was engraved when it was a title I firearm, but when it's made into a NFA firearm the maker needs to engrave their name and location the gun was made onto the gun. An SBR that starts out life as an SBR, or a title I firearm that's later turned into an SBR by the initial manufacturer already has the maker's info on the gun and nothing additional needs to be engraved.

Since eForm 1s were available for many years when eForm 4's were not, and eForms took a lot less time to be approved, it's been more popular for people to do eForm 1's. If eForm 4's end up taking roughly the same amount of time, then I imagine eForm 1's will become a little less popular and factory SBRs more popular.

If you don't want to have to have your name engraved on an SBR, either get a factory SBR on a form 4, or form 1 an SBR through a trust or LLC. Then since the trust or LLC is the maker, its name goes on the gun instead of yours.


Okay- so say I have an SBR’d lower.
It I remove the stock, leaving a bare RE, is it a pistol, for purposes of carry under my CCW, and for crossing state lines?

Which is to say, once the SBR paperwork is done, do I have to ask permission from the ATF to cross state lines with that lower in any configuration, or only if it’s configured as an SBR at the time?


It depends. What type of firearm was the SBR initially manufactured as? If it was initially manufactured as a pistol, then in your scenario returning it to pistol format means it's temporarily a pistol again, legally speaking, and you don't need an approved 5320.20. You can't return it to SBR form until you return back to your home state.

If it was initially manufactured as a rifle, then taking the stock off doesn't make a difference. It still meets the definition of an SBR. However, you could return it to a title I rifle with a stock and >=16" barrel and cross state lines without an approved 5320.20.

[JCN]

Thanks!

Looking at the link I posted more carefully, I failed and was wrong.

CleverNickname is correct as is the info linked.

Correct that you don’t have to engrave a new serial number as the maker but like he said, location and maker name is needed.

I guess I better break out the engraving tool ASAP!

[Totem Polar]

While my own answer is pretty much apropos only to my state: any semi-auto rifle purchase, by recent law, requires a separate form that gets sent to the state. Pistols are more or less business as usual. That’s why I have a DDPDW .300 and not a DDM4 V7, let alone a MK18. I admit that most states are not so benighted.

[5pins]

The AFT only considers an SBR an SBR when it's in the SBR configuration. If you put a 16 inch barrel on it, then it's not an SBR while it's in that configuration and can cross state lines without approval.

Also, if you are only going to use one upper and not swapping different uppers around, then you can mark the barrel of the upper with the required info instead of the lower.

[ASH556]

Okay- so say I have an SBR’d lower.
It I remove the stock, leaving a bare RE, is it a pistol, for purposes of carry under my CCW, and for crossing state lines?

Which is to say, once the SBR paperwork is done, do I have to ask permission from the ATF to cross state lines with that lower in any configuration, or only if it’s configured as an SBR at the time?

Also - ASH556
I’m curious as to the situation where a Form 4 would be used for an SBR.

A Colt 6933, a Daniel Defense Mk18, or any other situation in which the original configuration from the MFR was an SBR.
Form 1’s are for making firearms.

My understanding is that as part of the form 1 process, you (or a trust entity, etc) become the MFR and therefore must engrave the firearm with your name, city, and state. Hence, JCN’s comments about RE-using the already engraved SN does not preclude anyone from having to engrave an SBR.

[GyroF-16]

A Colt 6933, a Daniel Defense Mk18, or any other situation in which the original configuration from the MFR was an SBR.
Form 1’s are for making firearms.

My understanding is that as part of the form 1 process, you (or a trust entity, etc) become the MFR and therefore must engrave the firearm with your name, city, and state. Hence, JCN’s comments about RE-using the already engraved SN does not preclude anyone from having to engrave an SBR.

Ah, got it.
Thanks.

[HeavyDuty]

Also, if you are only going to use one upper and not swapping different uppers around, then you can mark the barrel of the upper with the required info instead of the lower.

I’ve never heard this before - it would make life a lot easier with ARs.

[JCN]

Also, if you are only going to use one upper and not swapping different uppers around, then you can mark the barrel of the upper with the required info instead of the lower.

Do you have any sense of how visible is visible?

So if I engrave a barrel on the side but you can see it through the handguard with a flashlight, should be kosher I would think?

[5pins]

I’ve never heard this before - it would make life a lot easier with ARs.

It's probably easier to mark the lower, since every short barreled upper you put on it will also have to be marked. The lower with the serial number is would still be the firearm. But if you are only going to have one upper, and you don't want to mark the lower, you can put your name, city, and state on the barrel as long as it is visible through the hand guards.

[5pins]

Do you have any sense of how visible is visible?

So if I engrave a barrel on the side but you can see it through the handguard with a flashlight, should be kosher I would think?

Yes, that is what I did.

[Clusterfrack]

I had my trust name engraved on the lowers, with lettering large enough to satisfy the requirements.

I don’t have any “one upper” lowers. For me that defeats a big advantage of an AR, and especially a SBR lower.

[Casual Friday]

Why SBR?

1. Stocks are better for shouldering. Most of the braces out there are lacking in one way or another when it comes to shouldering. Most of them also have some sort of built in LOP limitation which makes the gun less comfortable to operate. If you run your stock all the way in or one click out, you'll never experience this, but if you like to run your stock all the way out or one click in, the shorter LOP can make you feel like you're all cramped up. Some braces are made of floppy rubber that folds over and bends when you're using it.
2. It removes most if not all of the ambiguity around short barrel guns. With a SBR, put whatever stock, grip, foregrip, optic, bottle opener, pez dispenser, Chick Fil A sauce holder you want to. With a braced pistol there's always the questions that follow. Can I run this foregrip? Does this OAL make it a firearm or pistol? Is this a VFG or an AFG?
3. The govt already knows you have guns, and they know you post on gun forums.
4. Braces really aren't sticking it to the govt the way some people think they are. You're still in compliance with the NFA so the chest beating about not registering and not complying is kinda cringe.

Why AR pistol?

1. It's a tiny, little bit easier to cross state lines. But the process for traveling with a SBR across state lines is often overblown and exaggerated. It's not that hard.
2. This is mostly state/jurisdiction dependent, but for folks in states like WA with antiquated anti poaching laws that prevent carrying a loaded rifle in your vehicle, an AR pistol can be carried loaded the same way you'd carry a loaded handgun with your CPL. I maintain a braced AR pistol with LAW folder for this reason and will continue to do so while it gives me that advantage. If they make braces illegal, I will not be going to a bare buffer tube. That sucks and I'm not interested. I'll form 1 my lower with LAW folder and leave the magazine out of it when in the vehicle.
3. You don't have $200 to spare.

[snow white]

As far as I'm concerned a stock is in every way better than a brace so why not run a stock? I hear the argument that it's easier to keep in the vehicle and I understand that but do you not exit your vehicle when you reach a destination? Are we just leaving our "pistols" in our cars? That seems like a poor idea to me. Are we lugging them around in a backpack? At that point is it really that much more useful than a standard concealed pistol? I would argue no. I understand that there are times when a rifle caliber pistol would be nice like in an RV or something but overall I don't see the big benefits.

[Casual Friday]

As far as I'm concerned a stock is in every way better than a brace so why not run a stock? I hear the argument that it's easier to keep in the vehicle and I understand that but do you not exit your vehicle when you reach a destination? Are we just leaving our "pistols" in our cars? That seems like a poor idea to me. Are we lugging them around in a backpack? At that point is it really that much more useful than a standard concealed pistol? I would argue no. I understand that there are times when a rifle caliber pistol would be nice like in an RV or something but overall I don't see the big benefits.

I do not leave it my vehicle. It's transported in a backpack and does not replace my concealed pistol, it supplements it. I spend a lot of time in remote areas with no cell service and I prefer to have a rifle caliber on hand in those circumstances. Prior to WA changing the SBR and silencer laws and braces being a thing, a 16" rifle filled that role.

[snow white]

I do not leave it my vehicle. It's transported in a backpack and does not replace my concealed pistol, it supplements it. I spend a lot of time in remote areas with no cell service and I prefer to have a rifle caliber on hand in those circumstances. Prior to WA changing the SBR and silencer laws and braces being a thing, a 16" rifle filled that role.

Nice, Solid use of that platform.

[JohnO]

Post Sandy Hook Connecticut banned ARs but did not include Pre-ban ARs in the ban. A few years back people discovered the firearm category "Other". Many thousands of complete Others have been legally sold/transferred into the hands of CT residents. Stripped lowers have been going like hotcakes once dealers got comfortable selling Others. People were reluctant to dip their toe in and then the dam broke.

CT law bans loaded long guns in vehicles. An Other is not a long gun. A few attorneys I have spoken with including one who represents USCCA all say, "Do you want to be the Test Case to challenge the arrest/charges?"

An "Other" is defined by what it is NOT. Barrel longer than 12" so it is not a pistol. Brace & forward vertical grip since it is not designed to be shouldered so therefore not a rifle. Overall length has to be over 26".

Legislation in the CT House is targeting Others & Pre-Bans. There is talk of banning all of them and opening up the CT AW registry and people will be allowed to keep them if they comply and register.

How the chips fall with CT in combination with Federal law will potentially determine if the Others with barrels shorter than 16" may need special consideration.

I know a few folks who have suffered catastrophic losses.

https://cdn-bcdfd.nitrocdn.com/mpFpQbqPSncKsnyUELyenKrZTbkhaKJO/assets/static/optimized/rev-39dfe63/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/when-is-a-written-boating-accident-report-required-in-florida-600x400.jpg

[Darth_Uno]

Sorry, I lost all my politicians in a boating accident.


As far as I'm concerned a stock is in every way better than a brace so why not run a stock?

You can get SBR's in Illinois, but it's a bit of a runaround. Of course stocks are better, but with SBA3's, SBA4's and Tailhooks available I'm not sure they're $200 and more paperwork better. I can't have suppressors anyway, so without those running a brace vs a stock is 'almost as good' and not something I'm willing to put too much effort into improving.

[CleverNickname]

Why SBR?
2. This is mostly state/jurisdiction dependent, but for folks in states like WA with antiquated anti poaching laws that prevent carrying a loaded rifle in your vehicle, an AR pistol can be carried loaded the same way you'd carry a loaded handgun with your CPL. I maintain a braced AR pistol with LAW folder for this reason and will continue to do so while it gives me that advantage. If they make braces illegal, I will not be going to a bare buffer tube. That sucks and I'm not interested. I'll form 1 my lower with LAW folder and leave the magazine out of it when in the vehicle.


For me here in Texas, an SBR makes more sense. There's no laws against loaded rifles in vehicles, and if you want to carry your gun around in public visibly, a pistol has to be holstered whereas a rifle can be slung or otherwise carried in some other method besides a holster.

[JCN]

Yes, that is what I did.

Thanks! I went out to the garage and engraved all my MPX barrels with name and location. Since serial number is on the lower from the factory, I can mix and match engraved uppers for my guns.

[StraitR]

So… I’m seeing the ATF writing on the wall, and thinking that any AR pistols that I have may soon need to have their braces removed.

I like the current “pistol” designation, as it allows me to have one in a bag, in a car, in most states, on the occasions that I find it useful.
But if braces are… “problematic” come August, I’m entertaining the idea that SBRing one or more or my lowers may be useful.

My biggest concern about doing the Form 1 to SBR is the literal registration. I’d be going on record with the Feds that I own a certain gun - forever.
I’m also put off by the restrictions for intra-state carry and inter-state travel.

So- to the P-F brethren-

- What motivated you to go the SBR route, or what kept you from doing it?
- If SBR’d, how do you find the situation? Restrictions on use/travel?
- if I SBR a lower, can I easily change uppers? Calibers (5.56 to 300 BLK)?
- Does the process just involve submitting the E-form, and then getting the lower engraved once it’s approved? Or is there more that I’m not aware of?

@GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410)
@ASH556 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2839)
@StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620)
@Clusterfrack (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=7807)

In my state of residence, I cannot legally conceal and carry an SBR, but braced pistols are covered under my state's concealed weapons permit. I like having a the option to carry a rifle caliber firearm in a backpack if so desired, which is the number one reason I own a braced pistol.

Sorry for the delay.

[HeavyDuty]

This is kinda on point, so I’ll bump it up. There was a discussion earlier that touched on this that I can’t find.

Say a person has a SBR. If they remove the buttstock, can it be transported without benefit of a 5320.20?

[OlongJohnson]

I don't have a complete answer, but I'm confident the SBR would have to at least have started life as a pistol and been converted to SBR. If it was always an SBR going backward in time, then it is always an SBR going forward in time.

[HeavyDuty]

I don't have a complete answer, but I'm confident the SBR would have to at least have started life as a pistol and been converted to SBR. If it was always an SBR going backward in time, then it is always an SBR going forward in time.

That was actually the scenario.

[Andy T]

SBR is only an SBR if it's "configured as such" - i.e. a firearm with a barrel < 16". Therefore (to use AR15 as an example), if you separate the upper from the lower, you no longer have an SBR. Or if you remove the stock, assuming the lower started its life as a pistol or "other" NOT a rifle.