help shotgun rookie load a shotgun (870)

[DacoRoman]

My buddy has what I think is an 870 ...yes forgive my ignorance.

He wanted to load shells in the magazine and cannot. There seems to be a piece that blocks the entrance of the tubular magazine and there is no way a shell will go in there.

I looked at an online manual and it describes racking the fore-end back, opening the action, combat loading it, then loading the tubular magazine.

Am I to understand that one cannot load an 870 magazine on a dropped hammer?

Thanks!

[peterb]

A couple of variations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kurasn6tp6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwXpYpWOyfo

Is the part that appears to be in the way the shell elevator?

You can load an 870 magazine tube with the action closed and the hammer down.

Did he buy this new or used?

Sometimes shotguns have a magazine plug installed to reduce the magazine capacity to comply with hunting regulations. If the follower won’t move there could be a plug installed, or the follower could be stuck.

One of the shell latches bent and blocking the magazine tube?

[DacoRoman]

A couple of variations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kurasn6tp6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwXpYpWOyfo

Is the part that appears to be in the way the shell elevator?

You can load an 870 magazine tube with the action closed and the hammer down.

Did he buy this new or used?

Sometimes shotguns have a magazine plug installed to reduce the magazine capacity to comply with hunting regulations. If the follower won’t move there could be a plug installed, or the follower could be stuck.

It is not the shell elevator, it is a flat metal piece that protrudes (I think it was downward, from the top) into the magazine opening, before the magazine follower and narrows the magazine opening. Therefore one cannot push the shell into the magazine as the shell hits that flat metal piece. Sticking a pinkie in there, the magazine follower moves freely into the tube.

In the first video (thanks for posting) one can see an orange magazine follower clearly, with no obstructions in front of it. On my friend's shotgun the follower is metallic black, and like I said that flat metal piece protrudes in front of it blocking/narrowing the hole and not allowing shells to fit in there (2 3/4" 12 gauge shells).

I should also add that this shotgun has a long (I'm guessing 20" barrel) with a ventilated rib. He inherited the gun from his wife's dad. I dissembled it yesterday and the bolt and the metal piece that the bolt resides on (the manual ID's it as a slide block) look like what I see in the 870 manual and online pictures/videos..but I'm wondering if the gun is another model at this point, since you are telling me that one can load the magazine with the hammer down on an 870.

I also dropped a shell down the far end (distal end) of the magazine tube and the shell slid all the way down to the insertion point, and was stopped from falling out by the flat metal piece I've described. There was no wooden plug in there.

I'll tell my buddy to send me a picture of the opening of the magazine tube.

I did find this video of a Rem 1100 and starting at the 3:35 mark he shows how the mag loads fine when the gun cocked, but the shell won't go into the mag when the hammer is down. This is how my buddies shotgun behaved basically, although his is a pump gun. Also, I didn't know to try and load the mag when the gun was cocked, so in fact I don't know if this will remedy the situation. He still has it disassembled and I told him to reassemble and then see if the blockage will resolve if the gun is cocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Y184yuyTo

Thanks!

[peterb]

My old 870. It has the black steel follower.

Action closed, holding elevator down to view tube.
85638

Action closed, shell in position.
85639

Action open, elevator fully raised.
85640

I couldn’t tell a difference cocked or hammer down.

One of the shotgun experts here may have more ideas. I’m not one of them. :-)

[Lon]

The biggest problem I see with novice 870 shooters is trying to load with the action not completely forward.

[DacoRoman]

My old 870. It has the black steel follower.

Action closed, holding elevator down to view tube.
85638

Action closed, shell in position.
85639

Action open, elevator fully raised.
85640

I couldn’t tell a difference cocked or hammer down.

One of the shotgun experts here may have more ideas. I’m not one of them. :-)

Thanks for the pics..I think I see the flat tab, when the action is closed, in the superior portion above and in front of the mag follower, that is the thing that was preventing the shells from going into the mag. It seems like it recedes out of the way when the action is open.

Just to clarify, when the action is closed, can you still feed the shell into the mag?

[DacoRoman]

The biggest problem I see with novice 870 shooters is trying to load with the action not completely forward.

Thanks calling that out, I'll relay that over.

[Lon]

Thanks for the pics..I think I see the flat tab, when the action is closed, in the superior portion above and in front of the mag follower, that is the thing that was preventing the shells from going into the mag. It seems like it recedes out of the way when the action is open.

Just to clarify, when the action is closed, can you still feed the shell into the mag?

The easiest way to load the 870 is with the action closed and locked. If you know you’re going to load it all the way up:
1. Turn safety on
2. Use action release to open action all the way.
3. Drop shell into open action.
4. Close action all the way.
5. Load shells into magazine tube.

[peterb]

Just to clarify, when the action is closed, can you still feed the shell into the mag?

Yes. It looks like the magazine tube might be blocked, but the second photo shows that there is room to slide a shell into the tube.

[DDTSGM]

The easiest way to load the 870 is with the action closed and locked. If you know you’re going to load it all the way up:
1. Turn safety on
2. Use action release to open action all the way.
3. Drop shell into open action.
4. Close action all the way.
5. Load shells into magazine tube.

Lon - I don't mean to cause any trouble, but for a novice user(s) I think it is important to caution the OP that a shotgun safety generally only blocks the trigger from being moved to the rear. Although it happens very rarely, a sharp impact - say from the shotgun being dropped - can cause the hammer to come forward and strike the firing pin, firing a shell that is loaded into the chamber.

Therefore, OP, in most circumstances it is best to store the shotgun with the chamber empty. OP, this simply means omitting step #3 - drop shell into open action and close the action on an empty chamber.

[Lon]

Lon - I don't mean to cause any trouble, but for a novice user(s) I think it is important to caution the OP that a shotgun safety generally only blocks the trigger from being moved to the rear. Although it happens very rarely, a sharp impact - say from the shotgun being dropped - can cause the hammer to come forward and strike the firing pin, firing a shell that is loaded into the chamber.

Therefore, OP, in most circumstances it is best to store the shotgun with the chamber empty. OP, this simply means omitting step #3 - drop shell into open action and close the action on an empty chamber.

No trouble at all, Dan. It’s a valid point and well advised. What I should have clarified was that was a suggestion for if you’re going to load it up and shoot it immediately. But you’re absolutely right, storing it that way isn’t smart and I store mine in cruiser ready.

[DacoRoman]

Yes. It looks like the magazine tube might be blocked, but the second photo shows that there is room to slide a shell into the tube.

Thank you for the clarification. Most odd indeed what’s happening w his scattergun. I’m still waiting for pics from him.

[farscott]

I think I see the flat tab, when the action is closed, in the superior portion above and in front of the mag follower, that is the thing that was preventing the shells from going into the mag. It seems like it recedes out of the way when the action is open.

The verbiage above is confusing, so this may be totally off base. Is the "superior portion above and in front of the mag follower" that "recedes out of the way" the forearm? Below are two pictures of my 870 Classic Trap. One is with the action open (first picture) and one (second picture) is with the action closed. When the action is open, access to the magazine tube is blocked by the sporting forearm. When closed (forearm locked forward), the loading port is accessible.

[DacoRoman]

Lon - I don't mean to cause any trouble, but for a novice user(s) I think it is important to caution the OP that a shotgun safety generally only blocks the trigger from being moved to the rear. Although it happens very rarely, a sharp impact - say from the shotgun being dropped - can cause the hammer to come forward and strike the firing pin, firing a shell that is loaded into the chamber.

Therefore, OP, in most circumstances it is best to store the shotgun with the chamber empty. OP, this simply means omitting step #3 - drop shell into open action and close the action on an empty chamber.

Yes I store my own lowly beat up Mossberg 500 w shells in the mag on an empty chamber/hammer down. I think my buddy wanted to do the same but he can’t feed a darn shell into that mag! I’m going to tell him to just take it to a gun smith and be done w it.

[DacoRoman]

The verbiage above is confusing, so this may be totally off base. Is the "superior portion above and in front of the mag follower" that "recedes out of the way" the forearm? Below are two pictures of my 870 Classic Trap. One is with the action open (first picture) and one (second picture) is with the action closed. When the action is open, access to the magazine tube is blocked by the sporting forearm. When closed (forearm locked forward), the loading port is accessible.

It’s not the forearm. It is a small metal tab that occludes the front of the tubular mag opening, by maybe 20%, in a semicircular fashion. I’m still waiting for a pic from him.

[farscott]

It’s not the forearm. It is a small metal tab that occludes the front of the tubular mag opening, by maybe 20%, in a semicircular fashion. I’m still waiting for a pic from him.

Sounds like a displaced shell latch.

[DacoRoman]

Sounds like a displaced shell latch.

Yeah... something certainly seems to be off, that’s for sure. Everyone pretty much confirmed that it’s not normal for the gun not to accept shells in the mag, cocked or not.

Thanks everyone for your input. He still hasn’t sent a pic, so it is time for me to bow out and let him take the gun to a smith.
Thanks again everyone and if I get a meaningful update to this mystery I’ll update the thread.

[farscott]

If the gun was field stripped and a shell latch was displaced, it is possible the trigger pins are not going through the hole in the shell latch that acts to retain the latch. That usually makes it impossible for the front trigger plate pin to be installed -- unless the pin is smaller than specified as used by some accessories. If that is the case, the gun can be field stripped again, the shell latch put back into its proper location, and assembled. That should solve the loading issue. If it does, the root cause of the issue is known.

It also means the gun should go to a smith to have the shell latches inspected, replaced (if needed), and staked into position. I have seen this issue when people use smaller diameter pins to retain the trigger plate. The smaller diameter pins allow the shell latch to move under recoil and can break the staking.

[DacoRoman]

Mystery Solved!

Ok if you’d have told me there was such a thing I’d have thought that surely, it can’t be so.

Introducing a ONE SHOT - hence that tab that was blocking the darn mag tube - pump shotgun... with a Gas System for recoil reduction:

The 870 Competition!


https://youtu.be/tBEI9ScbSNM

I truly thought I was in the twilight Zone

[SW CQB 45]

when I started LEO in 89, I had zero time behind a shotty.

My first training officer would get angry with me as my fumble fingers would somehow get a round to feed under a closed bolt and on top of the shell lifter and tie up the gun as I was checking it prior to duty.

I don't know when the flexi tab system was introduced but they would make me take the 870 apart to free up the stuck round.

Now a single shot 870... I have been to at least 4 maybe 5 870 armorer classes. The first few were taught by (Lyle... cant think of his last name) who would tell us Remington stories as he used to work the floor.

Never heard of this particular model.

glad it was figured out.

[1911Nut]

Mystery Solved!

Ok if you’d have told me there was such a thing I’d have thought that surely, it can’t be so.

Introducing a ONE SHOT - hence that tab that was blocking the darn mag tube - pump shotgun... with a Gas System for recoil reduction:

The 870 Competition!


https://youtu.be/tBEI9ScbSNM

I truly thought I was in the twilight Zone

Well, slap the dog and spit in the fire! Never knew such a shotgun existed!

[Lon]

85847

Amazing. I started working in a gun shop that did a lot of trap gun sales (we had a secondary store at the old ATA Grounds in Vandalia) and I don’t ever recall seeing one of these. Worked the Grand National many years and saw all sorts of cool and expensive trap guns, but that’s a new one.

[Rick R]

Mystery Solved!

Ok if you’d have told me there was such a thing I’d have thought that surely, it can’t be so.

Introducing a ONE SHOT - hence that tab that was blocking the darn mag tube - pump shotgun... with a Gas System for recoil reduction:

The 870 Competition!


https://youtu.be/tBEI9ScbSNM

I truly thought I was in the twilight Zone

Well I have heard of that model 870 but never seen one in real life. I have friends who are trap shooting fanatics but the sport is mostly with single shot break action shotguns, some running over $10K.

Thanks for sharing.

[DDTSGM]

Now a single shot 870... I have been to at least 4 maybe 5 870 armorer classes. The first few were taught by (Lyle... cant think of his last name) who would tell us Remington stories as he used to work the floor.

Lyle Wheelock (sp?) a true gentleman BTW. I'd venture he knew more about building and fixing 870's than pretty near anyone alive.

Back in the day it used to be that anyone teaching armorer courses had spent considerable time on the floor building the firearm, and also considerable time in warranty repair.

The guys at S&W's Revolver Armorer Courses had the same mastery as Lyle, except on revolvers.

You actually learned stuff.

[SW CQB 45]

Lyle Wheelock (sp?) a true gentleman BTW. I'd venture he knew more about building and fixing 870's than pretty near anyone alive.

Back in the day it used to be that anyone teaching armorer courses had spent considerable time on the floor building the firearm, and also considerable time in warranty repair.

The guys at S&W's Revolver Armorer Courses had the same mastery as Lyle, except on revolvers.

You actually learned stuff.

That's him. I learned a lot from Lyle. His stories about Remington were a great addition to his teachings.

[willie]

Wonders never cease! May I make the comment about usefulness and how it relates to tits on a boar hog?

[farscott]

Mystery Solved!

Ok if you’d have told me there was such a thing I’d have thought that surely, it can’t be so.

Introducing a ONE SHOT - hence that tab that was blocking the darn mag tube - pump shotgun... with a Gas System for recoil reduction:

The 870 Competition!


https://youtu.be/tBEI9ScbSNM

I truly thought I was in the twilight Zone

That is a very rare 870 variant. The magazine cap that is used to access the recoil system must be kept tight; otherwise, the gun will beat itself to death and crack the receiver. I do not know if any of the recoil system parts or spare barrels can be found. It is worth much more as a collectible than as a shooter. A sale will allow the purchase of a 870 Wingmaster and several cases of shells for it.

[Lost River]

That's him. I learned a lot from Lyle. His stories about Remington were a great addition to his teachings.

He definitely had interesting things to say about the direction Big Green has taken in the past 30 years.

I was sent back to the states for both 870 and M24 schools and the sidebar-out of class conversations were as interesting as what was taught in the schools.

Very solid guy and the very epitome of an SME.

[DacoRoman]

85847

Amazing. I started working in a gun shop that did a lot of trap gun sales (we had a secondary store at the old ATA Grounds in Vandalia) and I don’t ever recall seeing one of these. Worked the Grand National many years and saw all sorts of cool and expensive trap guns, but that’s a new one.

wow..yeah, and now I'm convinced that my buddy laying this curiosity on the lap of a simple Glock/AR guy like myself was almost akin to animal cruelty :D

[DacoRoman]

Wonders never cease! May I make the comment about usefulness and how it relates to tits on a boar hog?

Well...yeah I'm with you! For someone like me having a shotgun like that would be akin to being stuck in a Potpourri store, both useless and cruel.

My buddy inherited the gun from his Wife's Dad, so I think it may be hard for them to part with it, understandably.

Incidentally, after I tracked down what it was that he had, he was like "oh yeah, it makes total sense now, he was into trap shooting, and liked unique things!" So there you go!

[DacoRoman]

That is a very rare 870 variant. The magazine cap that is used to access the recoil system must be kept tight; otherwise, the gun will beat itself to death and crack the receiver. I do not know if any of the recoil system parts or spare barrels can be found. It is worth much more as a collectible than as a shooter. A sale will allow the purchase of a 870 Wingmaster and several cases of shells for it.

Good to know! I'll relay this info to him. Thanks!