Hi Point Test.

[JDM]

By now, we have all heard of 2,000 round challenge, (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge) which many of us use as a measure of the overall reliability of a new pistol purchase. Well, our own TCinVA (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?4-TCinVA) is carrying out the challenge on a rather unlikely candidate- a 9mm Hi Point.

The test will be detailed in a series of posts on gunnuts.net (http://gunnuts.net/2012/08/27/the-hi-point-challenge/) (Caleb's site). This should be interesting.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Epic.

My only experience with Hi Point pistols was a couple in a lane next to me the second time I took out my new P30.

It wasn't pretty.

(In before this post gets sent to the p-f hall of fame.)

[Up1911Fan]

Seem's like a good way to waste 2K rounds. I'm still interested though.

[Zhurdan]

Required PPE...
1. Welding hood
2. Safety goggles
3. Lead X-ray vest
4. Chain-mail gloves.

Ready GO!

I watched as one in .45 did a comeapart once. Yikes~!

[JM Campbell]

TC has a bigger set then me.

Godspeed.

[LHS]

This ought to be hilarious.

[jslaker]

I've been trying to goad someone into doing this nearly as long as this forum has existed. Awesome.

[SecondsCount]

Nothing like a gun that gives you a 1 in 50 chance of a malfunction.

[Dave J]

So are we going to do a "When will it explode?" contest? :)

[LHS]

So are we going to do a "When will it explode?" contest? :)

Round 187.

[Ed L]

You need to shoot a few FAST drills with it side by side an established gun like a Glock/HK/M&P and then have some other people do so and compare the times.

[Joe in PNG]

I've noticed that the High Point fans commenting on Caleb's page tend to not like things like spelling or grammer.

[DanH]

I think the important question here is Will It Blend?

[TCinVA]

You need to shoot a few FAST drills with it side by side an established gun like a Glock/HK/M&P and then have some other people do so and compare the times.

We actually are working on a get together at the range to do some shooting with the Hi-Point...assuming it lives that long. I want to do it if for no other reason than having the only known video of a Hi-Point clearing a plate rack.

I didn't have room within the word limit for the blog post, but I want to thank Tom Jones and Todd who have graciously provided the ammo for the test.

I used to say "friends don't let friends shoot Hi-Points"...but in this case friends actually hand another friend a bunch of ammo and say "Go nuts." This could just be because they want to see me horribly disfigured should the gun explode or something. More than likely driven by jealousy over my rock-star quality hair and good looks.

Either way, it should be interesting.

I'm heading back to the range this weekend, so I'm open to some drill ideas for the pistol. So far I'm thinking of running "The Test" (modified to fit the weapon's capacity, of course) and timing shots to a 3x5 from the draw...keeping in mind that the only holster I can find for this thing is one of those horrid generic Uncle Mike's abortions.

[orionz06]

keeping in mind that the only holster I can find for this thing is one of those horrid generic Uncle Mike's abortions.

I can make something happen.

[TCinVA]

Dude, if you don't mind sullying your brand by creating a Hi-Point holster, then be my guest. I'm thinking something strong-side IWB because I don't really fancy the idea of putting this thing near my femoral or my family jewels. You send me a quote and I'll send you some money ASAP.

[orionz06]

Need to figure out how if they make a blue gun for one or if people just buy the real thing.

[TCinVA]

Well, there's only like $70 bucks difference in price between a blue gun and this thing's price on the shelf...:o

[LOKNLOD]

Need to figure out how if they make a blue gun for one or if people just buy the real thing.

Just whittle a brick-ish shape out of a 2x4 or something.

[orionz06]

Just whittle a brick-ish shape out of a 2x4 or something.

All kidding aside, I would make a legit decent holster for the gun, for free just to see it happen. I would love to see him legitimately test it. Buying the actual gun goes slightly further than I want to go.

[SteveK]

All joking aside, the Hi Point is a very viable option for some who don't have the resources for a high dollar self defense option. Sad truth is, in our nation's suffering economy, the lower class people who live in the bad neighborhoods sometimes are the ones who need that option the most but don't have the means or experience to obtain anything better. If you're an honest citizen who is forced to live with your family in public housing, the Hi Point may be your only option to defend your family. We all love our high-end blasters and practice diligently, but we aren't the norm in this country.

[JodyH]

As long as Ruger is still in business, Hi-Point is not a viable option, even for low income folks.
Used Ruger P95's and Security Six's sell for <$250 at every pawn shop I've ever been in.
I've seen prison guard stainless Security Six's sell for $150 otd.

[ToddG]

Well, there's only like $70 bucks difference in price between a blue gun and this thing's price on the shelf...:o

It's not the money. Owning a Hi-Point blue gun is funny. Owning a Hi-Point pistol is a sad, humiliating, soul-searing experience.

I mean, except for yours, TC. I'm sure forever associating your name with the Hi-Point pistol will bring nothing but good fortune and loose women.

[orionz06]

It's not the money. Owning a Hi-Point blue gun is funny. Owning a Hi-Point pistol is a sad, humiliating, soul-searing experience.

I mean, except for yours, TC. I'm sure forever associating your name with the Hi-Point pistol will bring nothing but good fortune and loose women.

Well I figured the HiPoint blue gun could serve as a hammer after I made the holster. A HiPoint might not fair as well in that role.


I am going to use *67 and call a bunch of shops today hoping to find one locally. It's a shame the gun is as tall as it is, it could have been cool to see an AIWB for a HiPoint.

[NickA]

I used to say "friends don't let friends shoot Hi-Points"...but in this case friends actually hand another friend a bunch of ammo and say "Go nuts." This could just be because they want to see me horribly disfigured should the gun explode or something. More than likely driven by jealousy over my rock-star quality hair and good looks.

Either way, it should be interesting.

"Friends" - that word might not mean what you think it means ;)
Good luck and be safe, your rock star hair doesn't need a new part caused by an over accelerated pot metal slide.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Jay Cunningham]

Well I figured the HiPoint blue gun could serve as a hammer after I made the holster. A HiPoint might not fair as well in that role.


I am going to use *67 and call a bunch of shops today hoping to find one locally. It's a shame the gun is as tall as it is, it could have been cool to see an AIWB for a HiPoint.

Who the hell in their right mind would jab a HiPoint into a holster pointing at their junk?

No thanks.

[orionz06]

Who the hell in their right mind would jab a HiPoint into a holster pointing at their junk?

No thanks.

You raise a good point.

Israeli carry!

[TCinVA]

All joking aside, the Hi Point is a very viable option for some who don't have the resources for a high dollar self defense option.

This is exactly what I'm hoping to get to with the test...just what the average consumer is getting when they make this purchase.

After 1 range session, the answer is: Not much. I managed to make it go bang 150 times, but the weapon also spontaneously puked its magazine into the action during that pitifully few rounds.

There's a lot more to be said about the gun that I just couldn't fit within the limits of the blog post, like how insertion or ejection of the magazine is about a 50/50 proposition as to whether or not it will happen. This is, I'm sure, due to the rather odd way that the magazine safety works in the weapon, but it still means that about every other use the weapon will either fight with you to eject an empty mag or insert a loaded one.

I don't expect the Hi-Point to make me put down my P30, but I am looking at it as honestly as possible: As in, if I walked into a gun store and all I had to my name was $200 bucks and a compelling need to have a handgun, would I purchase this thing and carry it?

[rudy99]

I don't expect the Hi-Point to make me put down my P30, but I am looking at it as honestly as possible: As in, if I walked into a gun store and all I had to my name was $200 bucks and a compelling need to have a handgun, would I purchase this thing and carry it?

I thought it was the Indian and not the arrow??? :p With this, I think you still buy once and cry once. The tears are not because of the price though.....

While interesting, I fear the "mine has worked flawless" and the "that is a sample of one" cries will be loud no matter the result.

I think the point was made on a thread a few months back, that if you can only afford a $200 gun, you probably cannot afford to learn to use it properly. Anyway, I look forward to future reports on this.

[jetfire]

For what's it worth, I've decided that regardless of the contest results, I'm going to pay TC for the rest of the series, because now I'm curious about how it turns out.

[fuse]

What contest?

[MDS]

How about a TC's HP Test Fund, where we can raise money for a shoulder rig, a stipple job, a custom mag well, and some milling for a Deltapoint or at least some Big Dots. Come on, TC, go all in on this thing.

979

[orionz06]

How about a TC's HP Test Fund, where we can raise money for a shoulder rig, a stipple job, a custom mag well, and some milling for a Deltapoint or at least some Big Dots. Come on, TC, go all in on this thing.

979

I sent him a racegun pic earlier...

[MDS]

I sent him a racegun pic earlier...

Good idea! With a RDS and a DAA holster, I could see this as a Tanfoglio trainer. Add a x300 and BAM! Nightstand gun. TC, I'd update my will now, if I were you. If anything were to happen to you, you wouldn't want your estate stuck in court for years while everyone you know fights to get your tricked out C9...

All joking aside, though. I'm happy to see this test. Sample of one and all that, but we can let the facts speak for themselves as they come available. Plus, HIPOINTRACEGUN!!! :cool:

[PPGMD]

Well, there's only like $70 bucks difference in price between a blue gun and this thing's price on the shelf...:o

At one point Blade-tech used to make holsters for the Hi-point, but they discontinued it for some reason.

Might have had something to do with the fact that it was a $65 holster for a $100 gun. :confused:

[LOKNLOD]

979

You can't be half a gangster... Unless you're Caleb in a Fubu jacket and crooked hat.

(sorry I missed the last DOTW and saw a window of opportunity...)

[Chuck Haggard]

As long as Ruger is still in business, Hi-Point is not a viable option, even for low income folks.
Used Ruger P95's and Security Six's sell for <$250 at every pawn shop I've ever been in.
I've seen prison guard stainless Security Six's sell for $150 otd.

Where? I need at least six of those Security Sixes at that price.

[TCinVA]

On the "cheap gun" front, I did some looking around in my effort to actually find a 9mm Hi-Point. (Apparently retailers sell out of them rather quickly) On the gunstore shelves that I looked at the cheapest pistol I could find other than the Hi-Point was a Bulgarian Makarov in the $250.00 range...I believe it was on consignment and it disappeared fast. Next in line was a used Ruger P345 for $325. Next was one of the good polymer Sigs for $345, which I almost bought despite the fact it was chambered in .40 and I have no real use for that round.

If someone shops around carefully they can probably buy a lot more gun for not a whole lot more money. I mean, I snagged my ex-Aussie police 3" model 10 for under $270.00 total (Bud's price + shipping + transfer fee) and as a defensive sidearm it's easily more trustworthy than a Hi-Point.

One of the things I'm hoping to do in this series is get a solid look at what's really out there for the person who is looking at the Hi-Point so they'll at least have some idea of what the alternatives are.


For what's it worth, I've decided that regardless of the contest results, I'm going to pay TC for the rest of the series, because now I'm curious about how it turns out.

980

All is as I have foreseen.

[orionz06]

Can you link me to the same HiPoint you have on Bud's?

[TCinVA]

Can you link me to the same HiPoint you have on Bud's?

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/1153/products_id/48302/California+Compliant

...but, dude, don't go buying one of these things just to make me a holster. It's an incredibly kind gesture on your part but I sincerely doubt you'll ever get another call for such a beast and it would probably be a waste of your money. Unless you just happen to want a pistol with "sleek lines" (no, really...they actually said that!) for your own collection or something.

[ToddG]

For what's it worth, I've decided that regardless of the contest results, I'm going to pay TC for the rest of the series, because now I'm curious about how it turns out.

Excellent...

TC, it should be what, a fifty part series?

[NickA]

Excellent...

TC, it should be what, a fifty part series?

One article for each part the gun ends up in?

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[TCinVA]

Excellent...

TC, it should be what, a fifty part series?

Doesn't matter to me how many parts. I'm insisting Caleb pay me by the malfunction.

[ToddG]

Can I drive your Ferrari when you get it?

[jetfire]

Doesn't matter to me how many parts. I'm insisting Caleb pay me by the malfunction.

Well, let me call my small business banker and see if I can get that 1.5 million dollar loan...

[orionz06]

It's official, I will be the proud new owner of a HiPoint before the end of next week.

[ToddG]

proud new owner of a HiPoint

Only if you can divide by zero.

[orionz06]

Has anyone ever run a FAST, official in a class, with a HiPoint?

[ToddG]

Has anyone ever run a FAST, official in a class, with a HiPoint?

Are you suggesting that a Hi-Point might function adequately enough to survive a 1,000-round 2-day pistol class? And/or that someone who'd only buy a $150 gun would then spend $400+ on a class, another $400+ on ammo, etc.?

No Hi-Points through AFHF so far...

[TCinVA]

It's official, I will be the proud new owner of a HiPoint before the end of next week.

Dear god....

What have I done.

[TGS]

Where? I need at least six of those Security Sixes at that price.

Not sure if you're referring to Jody's <250 or 150 out the door comment...but while I lived in Virginia, Guns'N'Ammo Warehouse in Manassas had a seemingly never-ending supply of Ruger Service/Speed/Security 6 revolvers for $210, and Model 10's in varying condition from $210 up to $270. They weren't nice condition, but certainly serviceable (honestly I'd rather buy a brand new Armscor 206, or used one for $180). The gunshops that I frequent in Pennsylvania have yielded similar prices, albeit not a seemingly endless selection/supply.

I 100% agree with JodyH about Hi-Point's not being a legitimate choice when Ruger P89/95's are available. They're not nice guns, and they're certainly not sexy, but they're robust, long-lasting, serviceable and dependable. Ditto for Armscor revolvers, police trade-in S&W 3rd gens or Berettas (CDNN had 92D's for $289, and S&W 3rd gens are available by the buckets nationwide for $300 or so) and most surplus Commie pistols.

[Ed L]

GT Distributers, a Police supply place in Dallas & Austin has used Ruger Autos for around $210. That would make an infinitely better choice than a Highpoint.

Here are some posts I found on another forum. I won't say which because I would not want to start any interforum hijinks. But I think the posts speak for themselves with regard to Highpoint owners.


"ok so i waent back to the range today with my hp 45, i have to say that i preformed much much better this time, i did have a few fte/ftf/ and some nose up jams. and one trying to chamber under a spent round but not nearly as bad as before, i started off with only shooting three rnds in the mag at once and slowly worked up to 7 awsome grouping by the way i was very impresed my maxim distance was around 14 feet and less, just trying to adjust the sites and get it just right, i was doing some cc techniques draw 2 quick shots and re holster, did fine with that but when i put a few more rnds in the mag is when i started haveing some issues, but maybe i just need to keep at it and let it break in a little more, note that it was much better than the firs time and i did make some adjustments to the mag but trying to figure out was is causing the nose up jam, and some feeding issues, thanks to all that respond."


I'm super excited, my c9 used to fail to eject 50% of the time. Today, I shot 50 malfunction free rounds.


I went to the range yesterday and had a good and bad day at the same time. I started off with the .380 and ran a couple mags thru it with pretty decent results. I got thru 35 rounds or so and it started to malfunction. I got FTE, FTF and double feeds. I adjusted the mags a little and it started running again without problems until I got to the last few rounds. I inspected my gun after my ammo was spent and saw cracks in the slide. I am not sure when or how it happened. I will post pics later.



Forgive me if this has been asked before I am an armed security officer and need a level 3 retention holster for my c-9.
Has anyone found one that fits

Someone from the forum was helpful enough to post this in response:


http://cdn.hipointfirearmsforums.com/forum/attachments/f273/5200d1344622116-hp-c9-level-3-bulldog-fsn-2-2.jpg?stc=1


I got a 35 on my chemistry test. I thought this was a huge victory since I did twice as well as I did on the last one

Oops, the last one was actually something I wrote in a college application letter as part of the essay.

[ToddG]

ed l -- That was just awesome.

"awsome grouping by the way i was very impresed my maxim distance was around 14 feet and less"

[ford.304]

Are you suggesting that a Hi-Point might function adequately enough to survive a 1,000-round 2-day pistol class? And/or that someone who'd only buy a $150 gun would then spend $400+ on a class, another $400+ on ammo, etc.?

No Hi-Points through AFHF so far...

I occasionally wonder if I wouldn't be a better shooter if I had done just that. A hi-point, 1,000 rounds of 9mm, and a two-day class would be about the same cost as a new name-brand pistol.

At the end of it, you've still only got $100 invested in the pistol itself... and you can probably get half of that back selling it to someone.

Now, whether you'd have time to *learn* anything between malfunctions is another question entirely.

[Ed L]

I occasionally wonder if I wouldn't be a better shooter if I had done just that. A hi-point, 1,000 rounds of 9mm, and a two-day class would be about the same cost as a new name-brand pistol.

At the end of it, you've still only got $100 invested in the pistol itself... and you can probably get half of that back selling it to someone.

It's not just the gun. You would need to invest in several spare magazines and a holster to take a class. This isn't something that you want to do with a gun that you are planning to sell.


Now, whether you'd have time to *learn* anything between malfunctions is another question entirely.

As you said, excessive malfunctions would get in the way of your learning and completing tasks. If you had major problems like the magazine follower coming out of the magazine into the chamber that TCVA described--it would really get in the way and tick off the instructor and your classmates if it required stopping the class to help you.

If the gun broke and no one had an extra gun to loan you in the caliber of ammo you had, along with spare mags and a holster for it, you would have wasted the money you spent on a class.

Even if the gun held up, you would be working with an unergonomic POS with a terrible trigger pull. This would limit your learning and skill development.

[Joe in PNG]

And it looks like the thread at Caleb's is now hosting the second coming of Gecko45.

He calls himself "SFMSG", and... just read:


I carry one on duty. I am a plane clothes security officer with a major corporation an I provide security for it’s clients. We can choose from any of the high end guns but we chose hi points after rigorous testing. Even our SRT, one of the best in the country all carry them and the carbines for heavy work.

and


That’s what I mean! Our operators put a 1000 rds a week through our hi points with zero issues or difference in performance. Why spend that extra coin on high dollar guns when the slim, accurate, reliable hi point will do the same… Plus we have more money for training and kit. For keeping our clients safe from predatory d-bags.

I don't know if he's for real, or if we're in for a bit of epic leg pulling.

[TNWNGR]

HiPoint C9 pistol's are one of the most frequent flyer's my guy's encounter on the street's. Ugly, clunky, rust and dust magnet that it is the darn thing's have a near cult following completly aside from gang's and other less desirable subject's. I don't own one but won't sneer at decent folk's who do own them. The carbine is kind off neat, in a strange way, but still a somewhat functional shoulder weapon limited by it's magazine capicity. Tamara once posted something by an odd fellow who talked out of his azz about how swell his HiPoint carbine was. I laughed so hard while reading it that I got hiccups.

[TCinVA]

HiPoint C9 pistol's are one of the most frequent flyer's my guy's encounter on the street's.

On another forum I actually joked:



Are they better than I've given them credit for, or are they best suited for a life spent inside an evidence baggie in a police station's evidence room?

[JConn]

If he's always dressing in plane clothes won't he stand out. I mean even in dc guys in flight suits aren't terribly common.

[LOKNLOD]

If he's always dressing in plane clothes won't he stand out. I mean even in dc guys in flight suits aren't terribly common.

Bazinga!

[rudy99]

Now, whether you'd have time to *learn* anything between malfunctions is another question entirely.

You're coming at this wrong. Just think of all of the money you will save on dummy rounds and all of the practice you will get at performing remedial action on a pistol. Harder to cheat at the ball and dummy drills when they are all live rounds. Todd needs a separate set of standards for the FAST when you have malfunctions, like when you do it unconcealed. Have a gun that is reliable? Add 2 seconds to your time.

[Al T.]

You would need to invest in several spare magazines

Wonder if McCormick or Wilson know there's a market need just waiting to be filled...... :cool:

[NickA]

Dear god....

What have I done.

Apocalypse begins in 3.. 2.. 1..

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[MDS]

Apocalypse begins in 3.. 2.. 1..

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

He'll realize what he's kicked off, try to blow his brains out, and get nothing but clicks... Madness ensues.

[JM Campbell]

Let me fix that for you:

Runs the gun hard...won't break...keeps running....madness ensues....

ETA: I like my scenario without the attempted suicide by pot metal.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[JRL]

If he's always dressing in plane clothes won't he stand out. I mean even in dc guys in flight suits aren't terribly common.

You beat me to it!

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/8/128915874647527420.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

When I was on night shift last one of my guys, a rather large fellow, got into a foot chase. Everyone listening thought he would get outran by the suspect so fast they didn't hurry to get there. Then everyone raised an eyebrown when he reported "suspect in custody!"

I roll into the station and here this;

"Dude, was that guy running on a peg leg or what? HINF did you catch him?"

"Well, he was carrying a HiPoint .45, and I think he got tired from all the weight"......


Anyway, I have never seen a HiPoint handgun go through a full mag without a stoppage. The carbine is clunky but reliable though.

[derekb]

Does anyone have conjectures as to what the precise root cause is at the bottom of these pistol's poor performance? Is it rooted entirely in manufacturing? Could someone build this design to a higher standard and produce a relatively functional gun?

Or is there a significant problem rooted in basic design choices? I understand it's likely some combination of both, I guess I'm just wondering if the design could be made solid and manufactured with a little more attention towards quality, resulting in an inexpensive handgun that is actually worth the purchase.

[Zhurdan]

Does anyone have conjectures as to what the precise root cause is at the bottom of these pistol's poor performance? Is it rooted entirely in manufacturing? Could someone build this design to a higher standard and produce a relatively functional gun?

Or is there a significant problem rooted in basic design choices? I understand it's likely some combination of both, I guess I'm just wondering if the design could be made solid and manufactured with a little more attention towards quality, resulting in an inexpensive handgun that is actually worth the purchase.

The one I saw do a comeapart was interesting. The steel looked like pot metal at the break.

On a side note, a guy on my dart league owns a 9mm and shot a two day class with it. He had some issues, but he can't be persuaded that it's gonna fail on him.

[TCinVA]

Does anyone have conjectures as to what the precise root cause is at the bottom of these pistol's poor performance? Is it rooted entirely in manufacturing? Could someone build this design to a higher standard and produce a relatively functional gun?

Or is there a significant problem rooted in basic design choices? I understand it's likely some combination of both, I guess I'm just wondering if the design could be made solid and manufactured with a little more attention towards quality, resulting in an inexpensive handgun that is actually worth the purchase.

I'm sure there are answers on many levels.

Engineering - To build a pistol at a certain pricepoint you are going to have to use certain materials. Something like 550 stainless (not a materials engineer, so please don't hurt me for pulling an example from thin air) is going to require more sophisticated machines, tooling, and techniques to do something useful with than other materials which may be more agreeable to production techniques like investment casting. Plus there's the expense of the materials themselves, as good steel alloys don't exactly come "cheap". The pricepoint you're hoping to hit will determine the materials you can use, which will, in turn, bring with it engineering challenges all their own.

As an example, I suspect that the reason why the Hi-Point's slide has the profile of John Merrick is because it has to. In other words, the slide has to be that huge because with the materials it is made of it probably needs that much material to have the strength necessary to function for more than a few shots. A different alloy will deliver superior strength in a trimmer package, but the alloy will be expensive and the tools necessary to turn a hunk of the alloy into a finished part will be more expensive. So the tumor-esque nature of the slide is being dictated by the materials it is made from.

Design - Building on the materials point, the design of various critical bits of the pistol are probably also dictated by the pricepoint and materials. Machining a Browning-style camming barrel action may not be possible from the materials that were selected. The machines available may not be capable of performing the various machining steps necessary to produce a functional Browning-style action. Or it could be as simple as the understanding that a blow-back action is probably significantly cheaper to produce since you don't need sophisticated machines to get all the geometry right.

Production - Again dictated by price point, you're probably going to have considerable challenges producing the sort of consistency in production that we normally come to associate with factories running state-of-the-art CNC machines...and even then, we've all seen how factories with good equipment can still turn out guns that don't work despite all their advantages. That can lead to situations where maybe a magazine follower is stamped a tad undersized and if the conditions are right it might just get puked into the action of the gun instead of staying put.

When you really stop to think about it, designing a "cheap" gun isn't exactly an easy exercise.

[LSP972]

I'm sure there are answers on many levels.



This. The fellow who owns this firm used to work in amongst the Davis/Lorcin genre of cheap blowbacks. The HiPoints use the same design in terms of "lockwork"... i.e., the firing pin doubles as the ejector, etc.

I shoot upwards of a dozen of these things every week, that have been seized. Once the thug gun of choice around here, it is slowly being eclipsed in that arena by the Stigma. Still a lot of them out there, however. Tom's (the owner) philosophy is that everybody should be able to afford a gun for protection. Whatever, but the fact is he cannot produce them fast enough to keep up with sales.

They generally work; for a while. But they are made primarily from pot metal, with commensurate "durability".

Last year, our lab put together a proficiency test for firearms examiners. I fired 500 rounds of WWB 9mm ball out of one C9 receiver/barrel and five different slides- 100 rounds per slide. The gun only malfunctioned twice, and one of those was my fault. But get this... at the end of the 500 rounds, it was a smoothbore! No kidding, the rifling was all but gone. I will be VERY surprised if this "test" goes the full distance without something breaking or wearing out.

And they are... interesting... to disassemble. Have fun.;)

.

[TGS]

Last year, our lab put together a proficiency test for firearms examiners. I fired 500 rounds of WWB 9mm ball out of one C9 receiver/barrel and five different slides- 100 rounds per slide. The gun only malfunctioned twice, and one of those was my fault. But get this... at the end of the 500 rounds, it was a smoothbore! No kidding, the rifling was all but gone.

I mentioned your experience over on Caleb's blog a few days ago.

According to the Hi-Point experts, you're a liar and also apparently my friend, which I need to consider ditching. :rolleyes:

So, for Tim's next test (it'll continue, don't deny your ghetto side and love for pot metal), do we all want to start a fund to contribute to? If everyone puts in five bucks, I'm sure it'd help him purchase his next saturday night special. My vote is for a Rohm .38 revolver or a Jimenez.

[Kyle Reese]

I mentioned your experience over on Caleb's blog a few days ago.

According to the Hi-Point experts, you're a liar and also apparently my friend, which I need to consider ditching. :rolleyes:

So, for Tim's next test (it'll continue, don't deny your ghetto side and love for pot metal), do we all want to start a fund to contribute to? If everyone puts in five bucks, I'm sure it'd help him purchase his next saturday night special. My vote is for a Rohm .38 revolver or a Jimenez.

The same "experts" who think fine dining is an excursion to Sizzler, followed by a bottle of Boone's Farm wine, no doubt.

[LSP972]

According to the Hi-Point experts, you're a liar and also apparently my friend, which I need to consider ditching. :rolleyes:



Tell them to contact me (Steve Campbell) at the Louisiana State Police Crime Lab, if they have the nuts. This was witnessed by several other people; I've got better things to do than fabricate anecdotes about a POS cheap handgun.

But this sounds awfully familiar. Before I got banned at Nimrod Central (ostensibly over a comment made on the HKPro Forum :cool: ), I mentioned the horrible trigger of the Stigma (S&W SW-VE series) and said it was a cheap pistol... and lord, you would have thought I had pissed on the flag.

Those el cheapo guys must take their hardware seriously...:p

.

[Joe in PNG]

Tell them to contact me (Steve Campbell) at the Louisiana State Police Crime Lab, if they have the nuts. This was witnessed by several other people; I've got better things to do than fabricate anecdotes about a POS cheap handgun.

But this sounds awfully familiar. Before I got banned at Nimrod Central (ostensibly over a comment made on the HKPro Forum :cool: ), I mentioned the horrible trigger of the Stigma (S&W SW-VE series) and said it was a cheap pistol... and lord, you would have thought I had pissed on the flag.

Those el cheapo guys must take their hardware seriously...:p

.

Don't forget that any exploded High Points seen on the internet were faked by haters with hacksaws.

[peterb]

Those el cheapo guys must take their hardware seriously...:p

Human nature. If your sample size is one, and it's worked perfectly for you, then anyone else who criticizes it must be a damn liar.

Plus, you folks with "expensive " guns are elitist snobs who think you're better than us good hard-working 'mericans....or something like that.

[Kyle Reese]

Human nature. If your sample size is one, and it's worked perfectly for you, then anyone else who criticizes it must be a damn liar.

Plus, you folks with "expensive " guns are elitist snobs who think you're better than us good hard-working 'mericans....or something like that.

Some people have far too much ego and emotional capital invested in their gear. It's silly.

[TGS]

Tell them to contact me (Steve Campbell) at the Louisiana State Police Crime Lab, if they have the nuts.

I would, but I don't want to feel responsible for the amount of hate mail from trailer parks that you'd receive.

[orionz06]

Those el cheapo guys must take their hardware seriously...:p

Take their hardware serious? No. Serious about their cheap hardware? I can agree to that. Maybe I will sell them holsters on layaway.

[Joe in PNG]

Take their hardware serious? No. Serious about their cheap hardware? I can agree to that. Maybe I will sell them holsters on layaway.

Don't worry too much about quality, this lot is all about the price point. All you need for a holster is some black cardboard, staples, and a MSRP of $5.00 or so. This will win you the eternal love and admiration of the standard High Point fanboi.

[ToddG]

Tell them to contact me (Steve Campbell) at the Louisiana State Police Crime Lab, if they have the nuts.

That's not a real place.

Wait...

[Ed L]

ed l -- That was just awesome.

"awsome grouping by the way i was very impresed my maxim distance was around 14 feet and less"

Yes, the guy was too cheap to invest in a keyboard that had a shift key or a caps lock to enable him to capitalize at the beginning of sentences.

Today's Highpoint highlight is a Highpoint with an RDS. Just because you have a Highpoint doesn't mean you can't be high tech. Notice that the slide is milled down to allow the RDS to co-witness the sights:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpointrd.jpg


And here's some of the famed photos of Highpoints when they fail:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpoint4.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpoint1.jpg

[Odin Bravo One]

Some people have far too much ego and emotional capital invested in their gear. It's silly.

Don't hate me because my guns are beautiful.

[NETim]

That's another selling point for the HiPoints. No need for carbide or even HSS bits. Chuck up a Nerf Ball in the Bridgeport and have at it.

[Joe in PNG]

Yes, the guy was too cheap to invest in a keyboard that had a shift key or a caps lock to enable him to capitalize at the beginning of sentences.

Today's Highpoint highlight is a Highpoint with an RDS. Just because you have a Highpoint doesn't mean you can't be high tech. Notice that the slide is milled down to allow the RDS to co-witness the sights:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpointrd.jpg


And here's some of the famed photos of Highpoints when they fail:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpoint4.jpg

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpoint1.jpg

Hacksawed! Totally hacksawed because you're a Glock/Pinckus fan!

[LittleLebowski]

And it looks like the thread at Caleb's is now hosting the second coming of Gecko45.

He calls himself "SFMSG", and... just read:



and



I don't know if he's for real, or if we're in for a bit of epic leg pulling.

Troll.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Ed L]

Some people have far too much ego and emotional capital invested in their gear. It's silly.

They are not willing or able to recognize that they have a POS.

If you have never owned a gun and go from having no gun to a gun that works 50% of the time it is still a big improvement.

Some people people either don't have the money to spend on a decent gun, or are not willing to spend the money. They generally don't know very much about guns which means that they don't know that for slightly more money they could buy a much better quality gun. They also don't know where to find such guns.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ironically I had to endure a lot of this sort of crap from cops and feds when I pointed out the issues with the Glock 22.

I still hear about it six years later. Of course, now more people believe me after having seen a Glock crap the bed.


The engineering points made are dead on. The HiPoint .45 is a Raven .25 that has been to the buffet way to many times (note that I DID NOT say "on steroids").

[ToddG]

Ironically I had to endure a lot of this sort of crap from cops and feds when I pointed out the issues with the Glock 22.

At the very beginning of my G17g4 test, an outspoken guy on another forum publicly accused me of making it all up as part of a publicity stunt, explaining how he'd sold dozens of gen4 Glocks to cops and they were just fine. A year later, he was publicly pissing and moaning about how badly Glock had screwed up the gen4 guns...

The firearms community is not easily swayed by crazy stuff like facts and data.

[Jay Cunningham]

Don't hate me because my guns are beautiful.

Dude, your suppressed M&P15-22 *is* beautiful... there's no denying it.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Today's Highpoint highlight is a Highpoint with an RDS. Just because you have a Highpoint doesn't mean you can't be high tech. Notice that the slide is milled down to allow the RDS to co-witness the sights:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/highpointrd.jpg



Stiffy.

I have one now.

[Sparks2112]

What's funny is if on any given week I've annoyed my boss, more than I usually do, he'll order one of the carbines in. He takes a perverse joy in watching me squirm.

[Odin Bravo One]

Dude, your suppressed M&P15-22 *is* beautiful... there's no denying it.

I know, right?



On topic........

I would be concerned with the MRDS mounted to a pot metal slide.............seems it might create a little more chance of pre-premature slide fracture. My next concern is the cost of the optic compared to the cost of the gun............but it's not my money.

As for the "why a HP?" Why not? It may not make it through Tim's 2k round challenge, but for many who buy that particular gun, it is not likely to see 200 rounds in it's life, let alone in a day, or other hard use firing schedule. They won't seek professional training. They are not likely to practice on their own.

People will buy what they want to buy, regardless. Not everyone has the same requirements. My dad went out and bought a XXXXXXX even after I had recommended a number of other suitable and serviceable sidearms. His choice never made the list of something I would be interested in owning. This particular model is the standard pistol for a hostage rescue team which I have trained extensively, which is why I don't care for it. I have watched them go T/U often enough to know to stay away. But if it works for the end user, then it works for them. Who am I to judge? Still not seeing a check for services rendered as the firearms purchase police.

For many, the economic factor is a huge factor. And for some, just the feeling (or illusion) of security is all they are seeking.

[Joe in PNG]

As for the "why a HP?" Why not? It may not make it through Tim's 2k round challenge, but for many who buy that particular gun, it is not likely to see 200 rounds in it's life, let alone in a day, or other hard use firing schedule. They won't seek professional training. They are not likely to practice on their own.

People will buy what they want to buy, regardless. Not everyone has the same requirements. My dad went out and bought a XXXXXXX even after I had recommended a number of other suitable and serviceable sidearms. His choice never made the list of something I would be interested in owning. This particular model is the standard pistol for a hostage rescue team which I have trained extensively, which is why I don't care for it. I have watched them go T/U often enough to know to stay away. But if it works for the end user, then it works for them. Who am I to judge? Still not seeing a check for services rendered as the firearms purchase police.

For many, the economic factor is a huge factor. And for some, just the feeling (or illusion) of security is all they are seeking.

I see it as a responsibility to future generations. Imagine the disappointment on the face of a budding young gun nut when he finds out that the gun grandpa kept locked away was a High Point C-9 or similar, not a 1911 or a Python.

Should I pass at a late age, I want the family members going through my collection to be saying "Oooo- sweet!" not "meh".

[JConn]

I know, right?



On topic........

I would be concerned with the MRDS mounted to a pot metal slide.............seems it might create a little more chance of pre-premature slide fracture. My next concern is the cost of the optic compared to the cost of the gun............but it's not my money.

As for the "why a HP?" Why not? It may not make it through Tim's 2k round challenge, but for many who buy that particular gun, it is not likely to see 200 rounds in it's life, let alone in a day, or other hard use firing schedule. They won't seek professional training. They are not likely to practice on their own.

People will buy what they want to buy, regardless. Not everyone has the same requirements. My dad went out and bought a XXXXXXX even after I had recommended a number of other suitable and serviceable sidearms. His choice never made the list of something I would be interested in owning. This particular model is the standard pistol for a hostage rescue team which I have trained extensively, which is why I don't care for it. I have watched them go T/U often enough to know to stay away. But if it works for the end user, then it works for them. Who am I to judge? Still not seeing a check for services rendered as the firearms purchase police.

For many, the economic factor is a huge factor. And for some, just the feeling (or illusion) of security is all they are seeking.

Certainly true. In my experience no amount of fact has been able to change people's minds once they have become emotionally involved with a brand or even a single purchase.

[Odin Bravo One]

I see it as a responsibility to future generations. Imagine the disappointment on the face of a budding young gun nut when he finds out that the gun grandpa kept locked away was a High Point C-9 or similar, not a 1911 or a Python.

Should I pass at a late age, I want the family members going through my collection to be saying "Oooo- sweet!" not "meh".

I agree Joe. And I am sure many of our members see merit in your point as well.

But it's also not my place to push my belief's onto someone else.

If a Hi-Point fits the need for the purchaser, than that is their decision and business. Not mine.

[Joe in PNG]

As they say, you can fix ignorance, but there is no cure for stupid.

[TCinVA]

As they say, you can fix ignorance, but there is no cure for stupid.

...and that's really the attraction, here. To provide some sort of useful data that someone considering a purchase can use to make a useful decision. When the subject of guns comes up there's so much BS in the air that all is covered in a brown-green fog that the seeker of information has to try and wade through to find a reasonable answer. Most of them don't know enough to understand that much of what they encounter is nonsense. Some engineered by the players in the industry (Glock Perfection!), some the result of people just lying, and a great deal of it produced by this hideous sort of groupthink in which the irrelevant and untrue become conventional wisdom.

Human beings function primarily on faith. We like to think that we're more sophisticated than that, but the truth is that as a species we tend to prefer having faith to having truth. We want to believe. That's how a dude can put his face above the word "Hope" and actually win an election rather than being laughed at so mercilessly that he leaves the field in tears. We also tend to want to belong...an instinct that served us pretty well when we just started walking upright, but now has morphed into listening to DubStep and wanting to be a pepper, too. This often results in sub-optimal outcomes for the individual because the kind of conventional wisdom born from all that is often complete garbage.

"Good enough" is a subjective determination for every individual based on their resources, capabilities, and environment. It's the result of an analysis...which is hard if you don't have any reliable data.

The Hi-Point test itself isn't reliable data. It's a sample of 1...but it's a start.

Plus, and this is the most important consideration, I get to shoot stuff and get paid to do it.

[LSP972]

You probably have discovered this by now... but be careful loading those magazines. The lips are sharpened by left-handed gnomes; probably distant relatives of the same Teutonic crew that sharpened the edges of the front sight hood ring on MP-5s...

.

[LittleLebowski]

Certainly true. In my experience no amount of fact has been able to change people's minds once they have become emotionally involved with a brand or even a single purchase.

I think Waylon said it well:


You can still hear me singin' to the people who don't listen
To the things that I am sayin' prayin' someone's gonna hear
And I guess I'll die explaining how the things that they complain about
Are things they could be changin' hopin' someone's gonna care

[Jared]

LL, sorry man, but Kristofferson wrote that. I think Waylon was one of the ones that covered it, but it was Kris' tune.

[LittleLebowski]

LL, sorry man, but Kristofferson wrote that. I think Waylon was one of the ones that covered it, but it was Kris' tune.

If we're going to quibble, I didn't say Waylon wrote it. I did know that Kristofferson wrote it but the song is Waylon's to me because of the way he sang it. Kind of like "I Hung My Head" regarding Johnny's version of it and Sting writing it.

[Chuck Haggard]

While I strongly feel that there is a niche for cheaper guns, I think the HP falls short, especially in the larger calibers.

In the past I have seen this niche filled with guns like the Raven .25, which actually works. Claude has documented guns such as the Jennings J22 being reliable enough for him to carry.

I distinctly remember some years ago working a call where a resolute young lady walked several home invaders backwards out her front door at the point of a Rossi .38 loaded with Winchester RNL. They had no doubt that due to her young son being in the apartment that she would in fact start shooting if they didn't GTFO.
In this case they thought a slight 20 something chick with a small child would be easy pickings, so they kicked her door and went in unarmed. I was a bit sad that she didn't flak-blast the lot of them, but I also know she could do without the drama of having to deal with that.

The place she had bought the gun from gave her a break and sold her 12 rounds when she bought the gun, she couldn't afford the whole box of ammo. She drove out to the county, banged off 6 rounds to be sure the gun worked, then loaded the last 6 rounds and called it good.

Not sayin it's the best plan, but it saved her from being robbed, and likely gang raped, which often ends in a brutal murder, and it likely would have done OK if things had gotten to the shots fired point.

We know that guns like that Rossi .38, or a Raven .25, often work as light duty pieces, they can be counted on for a few hundred rounds to be reliable. I fear that folks expect the same from the HPs, and they place themselves in a dangerous position by doing so.

[TNWNGR]

Although this thread has been one of the more entertaining examples of an exercise in futility I can only say this of the HP C-9, etc. it (of course they) are what they are and will continue to be manufactured and sold. What confounds me is CNC machining equipment has matured to the point of all in one unit that can mill components from quality cast or forged alloy or steel. CNC injection molding has also matured to the point of multi-source units casting inexpensive polymeric or glass fiber frames and slides. Kel -Tec and others really geared up on this, now firms such as Ruger are on board as well. We’re not even considering Glock and other European brands here. So, given all of this development and the maxim that mass production lowers cost why are we still seeing pot metal guns? :rolleyes:

[TGS]

Although this thread has been one of the more entertaining examples of an exercise in futility I can only say this of the HP C-9, etc. it (of course they) are what they are and will continue to be manufactured and sold. What confounds me is CNC machining equipment has matured to the point of all in one unit that can mill components from quality cast or forged alloy or steel. CNC injection molding has also matured to the point of multi-source units casting inexpensive polymeric or glass fiber frames and slides. Kel -Tec and others really geared up on this, now firms such as Ruger are on board as well. We’re not even considering Glock and other European brands here. So, given all of this development and the maxim that mass production lowers cost why are we still seeing pot metal guns? :rolleyes:

I can only imagine that cast zamak is still way cheaper than steel, no matter how you slice it....especially given Hi-Point is located with a well established zamak industry.

Even Kel-Tec doesn't meet Hi-Point prices, and I'm sure the demand for Kel-Tec is just as strong as Hi-Point.

[ToddG]

I think the difference is that almost no one gets online bragging about their Jennings. It's not just that the Hi Point sucks, but the fact that so many Keyboard Operators want to argue they're the smarter choice compared to, eg, a Glock.

[jslaker]

As an example, I suspect that the reason why the Hi-Point's slide has the profile of John Merrick is because it has to. In other words, the slide has to be that huge because with the materials it is made of it probably needs that much material to have the strength necessary to function for more than a few shots.

It's a combination of the materials used and the fact that it's a straight-blowback design that's trying to handle duty calibers. Since there's not a mechanical locking system, the only thing keeping the gun in battery during discharge is the force of the recoil spring and the mass of the slide. When you start talking about rounds like 9/.40/.45, the slide mass has to increase so the gun doesn't go the wrong kind of boom.

Compare the Hi-Point with the old HK VP70:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/HK_VP70Z_1890.jpg

Notice the huge slide, just like a Hi-Point, and I'm pretty sure HK wasn't using pot metal. :D

The only way you can really get around this is by including some sort of mechanism to retard slide movement during discharge. HK eventually came up with a really clever gas-delayed blowback system for the HK P7, which has an unusually light slide for a blowback gun, but it was also a very expensive pistol to produce.

[TCinVA]

I've fired the VP70....by comparison the slide on it feels positively svelte.

Sorry I couldn't come up with something more witty, but I just learned of the existence of a pistol named The 1911 Carry Nightmare (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/1911carry-nightmare.aspx) and I'm feeling woozy.

[rsa-otc]

I've fired the VP70....by comparison the slide on it feels positively svelte.

Sorry I couldn't come up with something more witty, but I just learned of the existence of a pistol named The 1911 Carry Nightmare (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/1911carry-nightmare.aspx) and I'm feeling woozy.

So do you have it coming in 45 or 357sig? :p

[Chuck Haggard]

I used to own a VP70Z, and while that gun and the HP are both blow-bakc guns, the similarity in execution and materials is nowhere near comparable.

If the VP had a decent trigger and sights it might still be around.

[jslaker]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that the VP70 is of comparable quality to a HiPoint. I was simply highlighting the fact that using a direct blowback design in a service caliber is necessarily going to lead to having a high-mass slide.

[TGS]

I've fired the VP70....by comparison the slide on it feels positively svelte.

Sorry I couldn't come up with something more witty, but I just learned of the existence of a pistol named The 1911 Carry Nightmare (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/1911carry-nightmare.aspx) and I'm feeling woozy.

Carry Nightmare?

You know, I can see the cheesy viking pistol, diamond plating, rainbow slides, ect. But Carry Nightmare?

They need to hire somebody to slap people upside the head. Like the Terry Tate: Office Linebacker of brainstorming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g91wjVxVn5E&feature=related

[NickA]

[I]Like the Terry Tate: Office Linebacker of brainstorming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g91wjVxVn5E&feature=related

TGS wins the internet for today for invoking Terrible Terry Tate.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Chuck Haggard]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that the VP70 is of comparable quality to a HiPoint. I was simply highlighting the fact that using a direct blowback design in a service caliber is necessarily going to lead to having a high-mass slide.

The slide on that gun isn't as massy as you'd think, it looks larger in comparison because the grip is so trim.

[NETim]

The slide on that gun isn't as massy as you'd think, it looks larger in comparison because the grip is so trim.

Do these grips make my slide look big?

[Sheep Have Wool]

Do these grips make my slide look big?

Not at all, Tim. And they'd go really well with those extended lashes (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5098-Is-this-an-S-amp-W-thing).

[TNWNGR]

IIRC the VP70 was designed to be a combination sub-machinegun and pistol with a polymer stock/holster. Once the stock was attached to the rear of the grip it became a functional sub gun, remove the shoulder stock and it was a semi auto pistol. It had a very heavy DAO type of trigger and was also a delayed blowback design. Like the P-9 and later H&K pistols it was very accurate and also expensive for its day. I never could figure out why H&K went to the trouble of marketing it as a semi auto pistol here in the US. Now what in the daylights a VP70 has in common with a HPA pistol, other than being a brick I couldn’t begin to guess?

[Chuck Haggard]

IIRC the VP70 was designed to be a combination sub-machinegun and pistol with a polymer stock/holster. Once the stock was attached to the rear of the grip it became a functional sub gun, remove the shoulder stock and it was a semi auto pistol. It had a very heavy DAO type of trigger and was also a delayed blowback design. Like the P-9 and later H&K pistols it was very accurate and also expensive for its day. I never could figure out why H&K went to the trouble of marketing it as a semi auto pistol here in the US. Now what in the daylights a VP70 has in common with a HPA pistol, other than being a brick I couldn’t begin to guess?

I would actually carry the HK, so they don't have that in common either.

[TCinVA]

The slide on that gun isn't as massy as you'd think, it looks larger in comparison because the grip is so trim.

That's my impression as well. The VP70 looks piggy, but handles better than it looks.

The Hi-Point looks piggy, and it's even piggier in person.

On the subject of the Hi-Point, I just got back from the range with it. I won't give it away yet, but something happened that had me laughing until I was in tears.

[TCinVA]

Carry Nightmare?

You know, I can see the cheesy viking pistol, diamond plating, rainbow slides, ect. But Carry Nightmare?

They need to hire somebody to slap people upside the head. Like the Terry Tate: Office Linebacker of brainstorming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g91wjVxVn5E&feature=related

Not bad.

...but I see your Terry Tate idea and raise you one SouthNarc...mainly because the spectacle of a guy in a custom tailored Italian suit threatening gun industry execs with physical harm and forcible sodomy would be even funnier.

[TGS]

IIRC the VP70 was designed to be a combination sub-machinegun and pistol with a polymer stock/holster. Once the stock was attached to the rear of the grip it became a functional sub gun, remove the shoulder stock and it was a semi auto pistol. It had a very heavy DAO type of trigger and was also a delayed blowback design. Like the P-9 and later H&K pistols it was very accurate and also expensive for its day. I never could figure out why H&K went to the trouble of marketing it as a semi auto pistol here in the US. Now what in the daylights a VP70 has in common with a HPA pistol, other than being a brick I couldn’t begin to guess?

One note: The VP70 was just plain blowback, not delayed; hence the chunky slide.

The trigger on the ones I've handled weren't just heavy, they were atrocious (keep in mind that I like DA). Wolff makes a lighter striker spring that you can replace (nudge nudge, tpd223 :) ), which is why the trigger is so heavy. It was designed by HK to be functional with the worst grades of ammo/hardest primers. In any case, when I finally found two to pick up and handle, my mind went from "hmmm, possible impulse buy?" to "it's got AIDS, put it down..."

[abu fitna]

I would actually carry the HK, so they don't have that in common either.

For a period of time, the VP70 was considered the high capacity ideal platform of its day. I know at least one graybeard that still carried his (chosen in the 70's in part for a potential role in tubular assault scenarios) well into the late 90's / early noughties (changed to a Glock overseas when he returned to service in the recent unpleasantness, but kept the HK as his personal weapon at home until a few years ago as far as I know). I had the chance to put some rounds through it on more than one occasion... the weird negative space sight picture was definitely a change, and the trigger pull so heavy as to be a real issue... but it always performed as advertised. One could do a lot worse... and given the time, the choice made some degree of sense.

Although they are rare and expensive these days, and there are still far better options across the price ranges, the weapon doesn't deserve mention in the same breath as a hi point.

[Chuck Haggard]

The VP had an 18 round mag, in a surprisingly small grip. Gunmakers nowadays could learn something from that.


Expensive? I bought mine for $350 about ten years ago, sold it for about the same. Sold the extra mags for $60 each though.

[Rustin]

I think the VP-70 was limited to three round bursts as a sub gun when the stock was attatched, IIRC.


As for the C9, I can see one genuine reason to own one or more Hi points, and that is as a pass-out/giveaway gun for a SHTF situation. Although, if you are resourceful enough, good guns can be had at good prices as mentioned before, but forthe guy who thinks the world is coming down soon...:p

[Joe in PNG]

I think the VP-70 was limited to three round bursts as a sub gun when the stock was attatched, IIRC.


As for the C9, I can see one genuine reason to own one or more Hi points, and that is as a pass-out/giveaway gun for a SHTF situation. Although, if you are resourceful enough, good guns can be had at good prices as mentioned before, but forthe guy who thinks the world is coming down soon...:p

That's what Mosin-Nagant's or CZ-82's are for. Cheap enough to buy by the trunkload, but without that ghetto/trailer trash stigma of owning a High Point.

[balance]

One note: The VP70 was just plain blowback, not delayed; hence the chunky slide.

But not as chunky as the slide on the Hi Point because the rifling on the VP-70 was cut deeply enough to allow gas to blow by.

[Nephrology]

i'd like to see similar tests with a Kel Tec. I have a buddy who swear's they are GTG.... despite having his PF9 snap multiple pins in under 500rds..

[ToddG]

And the winner is... (http://gunnuts.net/2012/09/04/and-the-winner-is/)

Kudos to Caleb for putting together such an interesting contest to choose his new contributor.

And huge congratulations to TCinVA for winning!

[orionz06]

So this just further cements Tim as the go to Hi-Point guy.

[ToddG]

So this just further cements Tim as the go to Hi-Point guy.

Hi-Point SME

[orionz06]

Hi-Point SME

Can't think of anyone more fitting of the title.

[TCinVA]

So this just further cements Tim as the go to Hi-Point guy.

To quote Richard Hammond: "Go ugly, early."

It's become my motto.

Truth be told, I'm probably much better suited as a walking example of what not to do anyway. "Today, kids, we're going to learn why you don't stick forks in the light socket!"

[MikeyC]

Hi-Point SME

There's two words I never thought I'd see used together

[TCinVA]

The next update is up, now.

While it could get better, after 38 stoppages in a single range session I'm not too optimistic.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Link to part 2 (http://gunnuts.net/2012/09/06/the-hi-point-challenge-week-2/) for the lazy.

[NickA]

The next update is up, now.

While it could get better, after 38 stoppages in a single range session I'm not too optimistic.

With an Archer reference to boot. Good stuff as always TC.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[ares338]

My experience with Hi Point has been with the .40 S&W. I paid $150.00 for it at a gun show. I bought it because I had seen so many interesting discussions concerning the quality of Hi Point...lol. I don't think I have ever witnessed so much acrimony as when the name Hi Point is brought up.

I spent the first week trying to get the thing to load 3 or 4 rounds in a row. I called CS and to be honest they weren't much help. I finally got so pissed, I took a hammer to the magazine and vented my frustrations. I then ordered another mag from Midway USA and had it in 3 days. I gritted my teeth and started the process again. Guess what? I am now on my 565th round (faithfully recorded) with one FTF and I blame this on myself for hitting the mag release button by mistake.

I am not knocking this pistol or praising it, just relating my experience. It has almost no recoil and shoots to point of aim and my bore isn't smooth yet.....just saying. Would I buy another one? Probably not. And the best thing is, if I run out of ammo I can beat the BG to death with it. I don't fear it blowing up on me but I also don't fear a random airplane landing on me either. Buy it or not..Jeez....

[TCinVA]

It has almost no recoil

I find the description of the recoil impulse of a blow-back .40 caliber pistol with a slide that looks as if it has a tumor as "almost no recoil" to be incredible in the truest sense of tht word. Having fired the 9mm and .45 ACP versions of the Hi-Point I do not consider what I experienced to be "almost no recoil".



Buy it or not..Jeez....

I bought it. And it won't go through a magazine without malfunctioning unless I hold it like I'm an extra from a bad rap video. Even with new magazines. So far I'm not impressed.

[Kyle Reese]

Think we'll ever see a Hi Point in .357 Sig? :p

[Joe in PNG]

Think we'll ever see a Hi Point in .357 Sig? :p

No, no- 10mm!! All the kewl kids like 10mm!

[LHS]

I think, as a means to balance out the craptastical fury that is the Hi Point, you should endeavor to include an Archer reference in every post.

Slide broke? Tape 'em up!

[TCinVA]

I just saw the comments on the blog about limp-wristing the pistol. I laughed out loud.

[orionz06]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012, I will be taking delivery of one of these magnificent pistols.

[TCinVA]

Excellent. I can't wait to see the holster.

[Failure2Stop]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012, I will be taking delivery of one of these magnificent pistols.

You have forever fouled my birthday.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[orionz06]

You have forever fouled my birthday.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

I have not yet begun to foul your birthday!

[NickA]

I think, as a means to balance out the craptastical fury that is the Hi Point, you should endeavor to include an Archer reference in every post.

Slide broke? Tape 'em up!
Something tells me he won't be needing the one about "an alloy of adamantium and mithril. "


On Thursday, September 13, 2012, I will be taking delivery of one of these magnificent pistols.
At least it's not Friday the 13th ;)


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[SecondsCount]

I just saw the comments on the blog about limp-wristing the pistol. I laughed out loud.

DUH! That only applies to Glocks and we all know the Hi-Point is "just as good as" for less than half the price. ;)

[Slavex]

You're welcome, I don't think I could manage a straight up serious response to your comments on. The gun.
I just saw the comments on the blog about limp-wristing the pistol. I laughed out loud.

[Ed L]

Excellent. I can't wait to see the holster.


You need to do an article on customizing the Highpoint--like do-it-yourself stapling.

[orionz06]

I can honestly say that unlike a Glock the C9 fits my hand.

[TCinVA]

The new blog post will be going up today at noon...or something like that. Apparently the blog software thinks only in wrong-coast time and I've been setting it thinking in terms of right-coast time and that's been delaying the publish of the articles. I think I've got that sorted out...but we'll see.

Before it goes up, however, I want to throw a shout out to a couple of folks. Firstly, to Tom Jones who unbeknownst to me did a bunch of behind the scenes communication to try and get me a real holster for the Hi-Point. If you're picking friends, pick people like Tom.

Secondly:

1034

Dark Star Gear has made what is probably the nicest holster that's ever been made for a Hi-Point, or that ever will be made for a Hi-Point. And it works really well to boot. Obviously I've been doing this test with a sense of humor, but they took building the holster deadly serious. I'll post more pics tonight or tomorrow to show the attention to detail.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Dark Star Gear has made what is probably the nicest holster that's ever been made for a Hi-Point, or that ever will be made for a Hi-Point. And it works really well to boot. Obviously I've been doing this test with a sense of humor, but they took building the holster deadly serious. I'll post more pics tonight or tomorrow to show the attention to detail.

Amazing work. I wonder how many orders could come from that Hi-Point forum if they knew about it.

[Zhurdan]

What was that old saying about gun leather? Something like "you should plan to spend at least 25% of the value of your gun on good leather".

Does that need to be amended for Hi-points? Something like "you should plan to spend at least 125% of the value of your gun on a good holster".:)

[TCinVA]

Amazing work. I wonder how many orders could come from that Hi-Point forum if they knew about it.

I did some googling and apparently there's at least one Hi-Point forum that's following the test closely. They'll get to see DSG's wares today.

[orionz06]

Snarky comment removed.

[LittleLebowski]

DSG really isn't that expensive. I'm digging my IWB/OWB holster I got from them.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/holster.jpg

[TCinVA]

http://gunnuts.net/2012/09/20/the-hi-point-challenge-week-4/

The accuracy from the HST was a real surprise.

[orionz06]

The accuracy continues to be twice as good, group diameter, than what my "in spec" "good" Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm fullsize can do with ASYM match ammunition and a rest, shot by a shooter who has printed a 1.98" group from other M&P's that same day.

[TCinVA]

The accuracy continues to be twice as good, group diameter, than what my "in spec" "good" Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm fullsize can do with ASYM match ammunition and a rest, shot by a shooter who has printed a 1.98" group from other M&P's that same day.

I agree...that ***CENSORED*** is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

[ToddG]

The accuracy continues to be twice as good, group diameter, than what my "in spec" "good" Smith and Wesson M&P 9mm fullsize can do with ASYM match ammunition and a rest, shot by a shooter who has printed a 1.98" group from other M&P's that same day.

You must be limp wristing. :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

Limp wristing causes 9mm 1911 magazines to fail as well.

[ToddG]

Limp wristing causes 9mm 1911 magazines to fail as well.

Then it must be limp elbowing that causes "getting out to practice" to fail so regularly... :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

If you'd stop practicing, your mags would be fine.

[ToddG]

But then I'd shoot like you, and what's the point of that?

(I kid... Lil'L is on The Wall (http://pistol-training.com/fastest/fast-wall-of-fame))

[LittleLebowski]

But then I'd shoot like you, and what's the point of that?

(I kid... Lil'L is on The Wall (http://pistol-training.com/fastest/fast-wall-of-fame))

With JoshS and JV in possession of FAST coins, being a PF Staff member on the Wall means less :D Lots of peer pressure.....

[TCinVA]

It is finished. (http://gunnuts.net/2012/10/11/the-hi-point-challenge-completed/)

[ToddG]

(golf clap)

[jetfire]

Crap, now I have to find something else for him to write about.

Who wants to chip in $20 to buy him a Lorcin?

[TCinVA]

Crap, now I have to find something else for him to write about.

Who wants to chip in $20 to buy him a Lorcin?

Actually, Tom has helped line up the next test....an M&P Shield in 9mm.

It occurs to me I should have probably mentioned that in an email or something.

[jetfire]

No, that's cool. We're already really well indexed in Google for Shield stuff, so that will only help.

[JM Campbell]

Drop in a APEX sear and go to town for the last portion of the test. Hit up DarkStarGear again or I'll loan you my prototype AIWB rig for the shield and a mag carrier. I'd be more than happy to help you out with support gear (spare mag too if you need it).

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[ford.304]

And here I was hoping for a keltec or a hi point carbine.

Just think, you could become the go-to internet expert on shitty guns!

[TCinVA]

Drop in a APEX sear and go to town for the last portion of the test. Hit up DarkStarGear again or I'll loan you my prototype AIWB rig for the shield and a mag carrier. I'd be more than happy to help you out with support gear (spare mag too if you need it).

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I've actually already placed an order with Dark Star. :cool:

[JM Campbell]

Sweet always good to start with quality gear.

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[F-Trooper05]

Just checked a message board that rhymes with "pie point forum" and according to them, TC is a limp wristing amateur who has no clue what he's doing. Sorry, but the test is now null and void.

ETA: Tim, if you want a free HP in 40 cal to do another test, hit me up.

[TCinVA]

TC is a limp wristing amateur who has no clue what he's doing.

I wrote up a little ditty about the potential risks to life and testicles if one screws up with AIWB carry...and on some website somewhere a dude with a shall we say "checkered" past and a motive to move products he was making money off of called me an "overfed, chain-smoking Cooper worshipper."

He was right about the overfed part. So I fixed it. :cool:

I can understand why some folks wouldn't be thrilled with my conclusions...but I was just being honest about the pistol I bought. The issue as I've seen it from the beginning is trying to determine what, exactly, you're getting when you buy one of these things. In my case it was a finicky beast that needed constant attention to get a really pretty miserable reliability record. (It was like owning a 1911...wokka wokka wokka!) I've seen various lamentations that I should have dremeled this bit or that bit, or should have cleaned it and lubricated it "properly" (this despite the fact that the instructions that came with the gun mention nothing about lubrication whatsoever), that I should have bought more magazines (which I did...some seem to think I used the one suspect mag for the whole test. I actually bought two others and never had any problems from the first mag after I put it back together) and even that the reason for the pistol's performance is that I was taking it apart and cleaning it too much.

...of course, I've also had the experience of having someone in a gunstore argue ballistics to me based on The Buick O' Truth. It was something of a bizarre experience to have someone literally arguing that I'm wrong based on something I wrote and making conclusions from it that weren't supported even in the slightest, but it was instructive.

I don't claim that I'm completely unbiased, but I did make every effort to be fair. I compared the Hi-Point to other handguns I've purchased and to the service those handguns offer because, again, I was trying to quantify what exactly the buyer is getting when he/she plunks down their hard earned money for this product. I've based my opinions on what matters in a handgun on lots of money spent buying guns, lots of training in the use of them, and lots more time spent picking the brains of people much smarter than me. My overriding question about the whole thing was this:

"If I had to use this to kill a man intent on killing me, could I do it?"

My answer was, yes...if I did what I needed to do behind the trigger, and if the gun decided to cooperate."

I personally prefer to carry guns that don't make me insert an if in there. There are lots of other pistols that come with an if, too. Like the problematic 4th gen Glocks. Or the M&P's with reset problems or early barrel unlocks. Like the 3rd gen Glock .40's. Like the Sig P250. Etc.

I'm an equal opportunity gorer of oxen...it's just that this time their favorite ox ended up in my sights.

I'm going to test the Shield and where I deliberately tried to be charitable with the Hi-Point, I'm going to be merciless with the Shield because that gun will end up being carried. It had damn well better work. Nobody from Hi-Point was cutting me or Caleb a check for that test, and nobody is cutting me or Caleb a check for the Shield test either. I saw some accusations that Caleb's history with Hi-Point determined the outcome of the test....but in truth Caleb and I barely communicated about the test other than me asking him if it would be a good blog topic and him agreeing. He's exercised zero editorial control over any of it. It was just little ol' me shooting the gun and telling all the folks in internet land what happened.

It's just that what happened didn't necessarily paint the pistol in the best light as a defensive option. It works as a rule 1 gun, but the difficulty in shooting it to my meager standards and in getting it to run reliably limit it to being a rule 1 gun, in my opinion. The Makarov I cited in the conclusion would have some weaknesses as well. Bad trigger, almost vestigial sights...but the difference is that the Makarov works reliably.

[orionz06]

Interesting enough the gun on loan to me for making the holster was an older gentlemen's carry gun that was deemed non-functional by his daughter.

"It doesn't work, I can't fire a mag through it, keep it as long as you need"

[TCinVA]

I just saw this posted somewhere:



Where does he come up with these jewels of wisdom?
"I’ll note that if you aren’t cycling through your carry ammo occasionally then you should probably start. You should also avoid re-chambering the same rounds more than a couple of times because of the dangers posed by bullet setback."


Well...umm...like this:



Originally posted by DocGKR:
There are numerous well documented incidents where duty ammo that had been repeatedly re-chambered failed to fire--both in training, OIS incidents, and in OCONUS combat.


I think when a phenomenon is sufficiently well documented that it's been the subject of memos in LE agencies and military units, it's something that's worthy of paying attention to.

...but that could just be my lack of "experience" talking. :cool:

[Zhurdan]

And here I was hoping for a keltec or a hi point carbine.

Just think, you could become the go-to internet expert on shitty guns!

Hahahaa... I'm not sure having an SME tag for that would be something anyone would want. ;)

[shooter220]

I would really never have guessed that there was such a thing as a High Point Forum. Never would have thought to look for it.

-shooter

[jetfire]

I actually thought the accusations that I had somehow influenced the test because I hate Hi Points (I do hate Hi Points, btw) were quite funny.

[ToddG]

Dear haters and critics of the Hi-Point test,

Take one of your Hi-Points, shoot 2,200 rounds through it over six weeks, and objectively report the results.

Or, in the alternative, STFU.

Thank you,
ToddG

[jetfire]

I normally don't respond to internet haters, but one time, just once I let my self-control slip and sent an email that said "If you don't like my reviews, you're free to start your own blog that no one will read because you're an idiot." It felt good.

[orionz06]

Dear haters and critics of the Hi-Point test,

Take one of your Hi-Points, shoot 2,200 rounds through it over six weeks, and objectively report the results.

Or, in the alternative, STFU.

Thank you,
ToddG

You mean spend $450 on their own test?

[SecondsCount]

Solid write up TC and thanks for destroying another myth that has been perpetuated by the internets.


If we’re honest with ourselves, most people are not facing straits that desperate. I’ve personally witnessed people with a $50 dollar a week Starbucks habit talking about how they couldn’t afford to buy a Glock. Some people simply suck at setting priorities. I’d go without a smart phone if it meant I could carry a handgun I could actually shoot well and that I could expect to function reasonably. For me, a dependable pistol is a priority. This doesn’t mean I’m going to run out and spend a whole bunch of money on a handgun, though.
Good stuff.



Dear haters and critics of the Hi-Point test,

Take one of your Hi-Points, shoot 2,200 rounds through it over six weeks, and objectively report the results.

Or, in the alternative, STFU.

Thank you,
ToddG

:D

[ToddG]

I normally don't respond to internet haters, but one time, just once I let my self-control slip and sent an email that said "If you don't like my reviews, you're free to start your own blog that no one will read because you're an idiot."

And now look where I am!

:cool:

[jetfire]

I literally lol'd at my desk

[Carraway]

Thanks for doing this test. I've been following with some interest as a few months ago I talked someone out of buying a Hi Point. He had asked my opinion, so I told him I had no real experience with them but that I felt there were better, more proven choices, such as a used S&W Model 10. At any rate, he didn't get a Hi Point but said the salesman recommended something else, I believe a Kel-Tek .32, which he bought.

[jetfire]

At any rate, he didn't get a Hi Point but said the salesman recommended something else, I believe a Kel-Tek .32, which he bought.

That is not much of an upgrade, but I suppose it beats a pointy stick.

[Chuck Haggard]

The P32 might actually work.

[Al T.]

:cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DiwPt-wMfdI#!

[Carraway]

That is not much of an upgrade, but I suppose it beats a pointy stick.

I thought something similar but reserved comment since I know nothing about Kel-Tecs, and he seemed happy with his purchase. I'd also already given my recommendation for a revolver such as a Model 10, particularly as he was losing strength quickly and his wife is not very physically strong.

I'm also looking forward to the Shield test. I've been considering buying one if I could find it. (I'd like something smaller than my Sig 226 for regular carry and doubt that the currently made, smaller Sigs are the best choice).

Getting back to the Hi-Point test, besides gaining some insight into the actual firearm, you probably have enough commentary for an interesting, although possibly disturbing, psychology or cultural anthropology study.

[JFK]

Getting back to the Hi-Point test, besides gaining some insight into the actual firearm, you probably have enough commentary for an interesting, although possibly disturbing, psychology or cultural anthropology study.

I took about 10 min to read the Hi Point Forum. Very cult like. I know people are loyal to the best, most reliable, cost effective [Insert Brand Here] that they carry. However that is some extreem fanboyness. (is that a word?) It reminds me of the followers of a certain political faction.

On topic... Thanks for doing the test. Real objective data is always easier to assess then conjecture and estimation.

[NickA]

I took about 10 min to read the Hi Point Forum. Very cult like. I know people are loyal to the best, most reliable, cost effective [Insert Brand Here] that they carry. However that is some extreem fanboyness. (is that a word?) It reminds me of the followers of a certain political faction.

On topic... Thanks for doing the test. Real objective data is always easier to assess then conjecture and estimation.

I made the same mistake and read the forum. Maybe once TC gets some real experience as a pistol shooter he can go back and do a real test ;)
Looking forward to the Shield test also, in my limited shooting of one it's just a great little gun.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[ford.304]

That is not much of an upgrade, but I suppose it beats a pointy stick.

I don't know, what's the mean stabs between failures for your average stick?

[Mickey]

Thanks for doing this test it saved me from doing it.
I was going to do the same test after being called a gun snob on my local forum.
I guess where I am from Glock guys are considered snobs:confused:

[shooter220]

When I was in grad school, I showed up at a party with a 12 pack of Miller Lite - and was called a beer snob (at WVU). To me, being called a gun snob over a Glock is about the same thing. Both are functional ways to accomplish a goal...

-shooter

[LHS]

When I was in grad school, I showed up at a party with a 12 pack of Miller Lite - and was called a beer snob (at WVU). To me, being called a gun snob over a Glock is about the same thing. Both are functional ways to accomplish a goal...

-shooter

I was born and raised in WV, and I can confirm that Bud Light and Miller Light are considered rich man's beer. Most folks drank Milwaukee's Beast or Natty Light or Busch Light. I know much better now, but it took exposure to better beers for me to see the light. I suppose people raised on the "good 'nuff" (as if) Hi Points are much the same.

[Tamara]

I think when a phenomenon is sufficiently well documented that it's been the subject of memos in LE agencies and military units, it's something that's worthy of paying attention to.

I can tell you from personal experience that any Cletus unwilling to shell out more than a buck-and-a-half for a pistol is going to hand down his solitary loaded magazine of dollar-a-pop holler points like they were the frickin' family silver.

[jstyer]

I can tell you from personal experience that any Cletus unwilling to shell out more than a buck-and-a-half for a pistol is going to hand down his solitary loaded magazine of dollar-a-pop holler points like they were the frickin' family silver.

Just choked on my coffee...

[Sparks2112]

'Dem der silver tops be gud nuff fer werewolves, they'd do just raght for your uncle joe bob.