Larry Vickers "The Test"

[docwatson]

Anyone familiar with this one, Ken Hackathorn was talking about it on last weeks Tac tv.

[Tom Givens]

B-8 bullseye target at 10 yards, 10 shots in 10 seconds, all in the black. IIRC Ken has students do it from the ready, I do it from the holster.

[JHC]

My intro to it was Ken's class. I struggle to shoot at a nice 10 second pace and usally finish with 2-3 seconds to spare. Unfortunately I've never scored a 90 or higher on it. I need to practice it more to get that 10 second rhythm.

Ken explained the scoring in class that LAV's test with a score of 90 or higher was required for shooters at his former unit to graduate or hold the job etc.

A shooter could practice it mutliple times to get it down but got to shoot it once for score which was a Pass/Fail. The shooter had to declare in advance - "This one is for qual" and then sink or swim on that score.

[Dropkick]

I read somewhere that the B-16 target was used.
Is that a nuance between various instructors too?

[Cecil Burch]

I read somewhere that the B-16 target was used.
Is that a nuance between various instructors too?

I am pretty sure that in the Vickers class I took, the B-8 was used.

[orionz06]

I am pretty sure that in the Vickers class I took, the B-8 was used.

Larry and Ken both use B-8's.

[WyoXd]

Anyone know right off hand what the diameter of the black is on the B8 target?

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[orionz06]

Anyone know right off hand what the diameter of the black is on the B8 target?

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=57&d=1306683559

http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html

[Wayne Dobbs]

The B-8 bull is 5.5" in diameter.

I've sponsored both Ken and Larry in classes in my area and these are the variations that Ken has shown in those classes that he did:

The Test (Classic): 10 yards; 10 rounds; 10 seconds; low ready with a pistol with a capacity of 10 or more.

The Test - 1911 Version: 10 yards; Eight rounds; 10 seconds; from the holster

The Half Test: Five yards; 10 rounds; five seconds; from the holster

Scored by the rings and 90% to pass.

[JHC]

The B-8 bull is 5.5" in diameter.


Scored by the rings and 90% to pass.

Which means your target is actually; what . . . about 3".

Then there was the "Half Test" which was 5 seconds at I think 5 yards (?) for 10 shots - same target and scoring; from the holster.

[orionz06]

The black is 5.5"

[Al T.]

Nope, (:)) the 9, 10 and X constitute the black.

[ToddG]

The Test (Classic): 10 yards; 10 rounds; 10 seconds; low ready with a pistol with a capacity of 10 or more.

The Test - 1911 Version: 10 yards; Eight rounds; 10 seconds; from the holster

I believe you have those reversed -- the gun that needs a reload starts from the ready, the gun that needs no reload starts from the holster.

The 90% that Wayne mentioned doesn't mean 90 points out of 100, it means nine of the ten shots are inside the black.

I shot it today, only had B-16 targets. First run was all in the black in 6.89 from concealment. Second run I tried to get better hits and slowed down to use the time available:
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WTS017-TheTest-828.jpg
(89-1X in 8.28s)
Don't know what it would be in B-8 terms.

[Jay Cunningham]

The black part of the bull must be 5.5" in diameter. 10 rounds from 10 yards in 10 seconds, from the ready.

All 10 rounds in the black, go/no go.

That's the variation I have the most experience with standing in front of both Ken and Larry.

[JHC]

The black part of the bull must be 5.5" in diameter. 10 rounds from 10 yards in 10 seconds, from the ready.

All 10 rounds in the black, go/no go.

That's the variation I have the most experience with standing in front of both Ken and Larry.

This is very good news! For my scores. :D

In our class we were scoring with the rings but with the span of control across the class I could easily have mis-understood Ken.

[Jay Cunningham]

The rings can be scored, but there's not too much reason to do that until you have either everyone cleaning it or you have a shoot-off between the top guns.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I believe you have those reversed -- the gun that needs a reload starts from the ready, the gun that needs no reload starts from the holster.

The 90% that Wayne mentioned doesn't mean 90 points out of 100, it means nine of the ten shots are inside the black.

I shot it today, only had B-16 targets. First run was all in the black in 6.89 from concealment. Second run I tried to get better hits and slowed down to use the time available:
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WTS017-TheTest-828.jpg
(89-1X in 8.28s)
Don't know what it would be in B-8 terms.

Todd,

When Ken and Larry ran it, the 1911s only fired the eight shots they had on board and since they had a nominal two shot pad over the high caps (in terms of rounds NOT required), they made the single stack guys start from the holster. I think that there is likely lots of "drift" on this drill and lots of variations out there. I'm just posting how they came "from the horse's mouths". As for scoring, LAV was scoring the rings on everybody and setting a 90% pass standard, which translated to 90/100 for the high caps and 72/80 for the 1911 crowd. To make folks feel more included (so they can get a trophy and eat pizza with the rest of the team), I've run it lots of times with the B-8 bull's black being a full count area and the eight ring down one point.

Any way you run it, The Test is a pretty good tool for moderate speed and accuracy testing. The Half Test (from holster - 10 rounds in five seconds at five yards) really puts most folks into the ditch the first time they run it and somebody that can shoot it clean or down a couple, when scoring the rings, is a solid shooter.

[ToddG]

Wayne... You're exactly right and I remembered wrong about the low capacity guns needing to reload. Thanks for clearing it up!

[Serpico1985]

There was a AAR over on FT&P froum from a few years ago that had a embeded video of Ken H shooting the classic version of the test with a glock 19. The video is no longer good but it was informative. Ken H shot it clean by the way. The version he shot was 10 rounds at 10 yards in 10 seconds from the ready.

[docwatson]

that is what I was looking for, thanks.

[Tom Givens]

I hadn't done this drill in a while and the discussion peaked my interest, so I tried it a few times today. EDC Glock 35, 180 grain MagTech ball. B-8 at 10 yards, 10 rounds from the Low Ready.

I was able to consistently clean it in the 7.5 to 8.0 second range, but if I tried to drop ANY below 7.5 I started to lose 2-3 rounds just below the black. This tells me I have been laid off from practice too long and need to work on my trigger control.

This drill is a better test than its simplicity might suggest.

[JodyH]

All I had was a 4x6 card at 20 yards.
10 for 10 in 10.03 seconds from low ready.

[MDS]

All I had was a 4x6 card at 20 yards.
10 for 10 in 10.03 seconds from low ready.

That's like a smaller version of The Test... "The Quiz"!! :D Nice shooting.

The Test was a great motivator for me when I was just working on fundamental marksmanship. It requires *some* speed but not much, just so you have to do the fundamentals on demand a few times in a row. It's a great motivator because as I practiced the fundamentals, all the effort showed up vividly on The Test. I could literally see myself improving week by week, depending on how much I'd practiced. I don't run it much these days, what with my immediate goal of consistent <7s FASTs. But it's a great measure of the basics, especially from the holster, and I plan to include it in my "skills maintenance" plan once I hit my pistol goals.

[Jay Cunningham]

The Test is a pure trigger control drill... nothing more, nothing less.

And one of the best out there.

[MDS]

The Test is a pure trigger control drill... nothing more, nothing less.

And one of the best out there.

Reminds me of a question I meant to ask. It's obviously a good "Test" of trigger control, but do you feel it's good practice for trigger control, too? I used it both ways, and I think it helped as practice, but maybe I could have done something more effective with those rounds?

[Jay Cunningham]

Reminds me of a question I meant to ask. It's obviously a good "Test" of trigger control, but do you feel it's good practice for trigger control, too? I used it both ways, and I think it helped as practice, but maybe I could have done something more effective with those rounds?

That's a heckuva question.

lol

[MDS]

That's a heckuva question.

lol

Heh, I wasn't very clear, was I? :o

I guess I'm just asking, is it worth running this drill over and over in a single session? Or is it best to run the drill occasionally, maybe once or twice per session?

[Jay Cunningham]

Heh, I wasn't very clear, was I? :o

I guess I'm just asking, is it worth running this drill over and over in a single session? Or is it best to run the drill occasionally, maybe once or twice per session?

Well, since it's supposed to be a "test" I'd limit it, personally.

You can hit up other drills which focus on trigger control and then go back and take the test.

[MDS]

Well, since it's supposed to be a "test" I'd limit it, personally.

You can hit up other drills which focus on trigger control and then go back and take the test.

Got it, thanks!

[JodyH]

3/4" dots at 3-5 yards, 12 dots per target, 3-5 shots per dot is my trigger control drill.

[LOKNLOD]

3/4" dots at 3-5 yards, 12 dots per target, 3-5 shots per dot is my trigger control drill.

I've used this thanks to Jody and it's tougher than it sounds.

Leftover pasters, some pricing stickers for garage sales, a bingo blotter, or even just shooting at the same bullet hole repeatedly can all be used similarly.

[John Hearne]

There's also the old Jim Crews standard of 3 rds in a single hole at 3 yds.

[JodyH]

I've used this thanks to Jody and it's tougher than it sounds.

Leftover pasters, some pricing stickers for garage sales, a bingo blotter, or even just shooting at the same bullet hole repeatedly can all be used similarly.

I have a nice. pdf dot drill target if anyone wants it pm me

[CCT125US]

Here was my attempt today. HKP30V3 Heinie Straight Eight Qwik from concealment. 7.66 sec. In all fairness the sun was at my back and made the painted top serration glow like a red dot, it was shall we say, helpful.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/CCT125US/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-09-02_202959.jpg

[JHC]

I have a nice. pdf dot drill target if anyone wants it pm me

That's pretty strong right there. Funny how hard it is to slow down enough to use up all 10 seconds isn't it?

[Stuffbreaker]

Only had time to run it twice before a class, getting 8 hits in 5.6-5.8 secs from a draw. Need to slow down on this one, for sure. Great test.

[JHC]

Here was my attempt today. HKP30V3 Heinie Straight Eight Qwik from concealment. 7.66 sec. In all fairness the sun was at my back and made the painted top serration glow like a red dot, it was shall we say, helpful.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa433/CCT125US/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-09-02_202959.jpg

As I look back on the notes I took it suggest this is scored by the rings; this target would score 93 (give or take) and be a pass.

[NickDrak]

I tried a variation of "The Test" yesterday at the range. Call it the "Double Test".

Two B8 repair centers used (Either side-by-side or on two separate backers)

Two magazines loaded with 10rds each

Just repeat "The Test" twice with a slidelock reload in-between targets. I set the Par time @ 21 seconds.

10rds-reload-10rds on two separate B8's

[Terrance]

I shot 'the test' at Ken's Advanced Tactical Pistol class in Carthage about a year ago.

A shooter using an ex-unit 1911 right beside me shot 100/100. Kinda tough to follow that, but I ended up with a 99/100 using a borrowed Gen4 G19 with Hackathorn Ameriglo sights. I was pretty happy with the results. :D

I can pretty consistently shoot in the mid to high 90's, occasionally cleaning it.

I'll have to try the 'double test' next time I get on a range (haven't been able to do any shooting since June/July due to work and family commitments).

[JHC]

I shot 'the test' at Ken's Advanced Tactical Pistol class in Carthage about a year ago.

A shooter using an ex-unit 1911 right beside me shot 100/100. Kinda tough to follow that, but I ended up with a 99/100 using a borrowed Gen4 G19 with Hackathorn Ameriglo sights. I was pretty happy with the results. :D

I can pretty consistently shoot in the mid to high 90's, occasionally cleaning it.

I'll have to try the 'double test' next time I get on a range (haven't been able to do any shooting since June/July due to work and family commitments).

Was it scored just In the black or Out of the black - or by the actual scoring rings?

Thanks (and great shooting).

[Terrance]

Was it scored just In the black or Out of the black - or by the actual scoring rings?

Thanks (and great shooting).

Ken used the scoring rings.

When I first read about it, I tried it a few times and found it pretty easy to keep all the shots in the black, thinking I was a pretty good shot. But then when Ken said it wasn't just keeping the shots in the black, but scoring the target, the confidence level drops a bit. lol

And thanks! :o

[JHC]

Ken used the scoring rings.

When I first read about it, I tried it a few times and found it pretty easy to keep all the shots in the black, thinking I was a pretty good shot. But then when Ken said it wasn't just keeping the shots in the black, but scoring the target, the confidence level drops a bit. lol

And thanks! :o

That is how I recalled it from Ken's class last year also. It's trickier than it first sounds.

[EMC]

Here is a video showing Ken administering the test to Larry and Super Dave.

Starts at around 2:47


https://youtu.be/IIl912RdZC8

[Al T.]

Tagged. :)

[EMC]

I thought that Larry Vickers shooting a glock left on the test was interesting and Ken telling him he might want to drift that sight to the right. :)

[GAP]

Tried this today for the first time:
97 pts - 9.29 sec - Glock 26 Gen 4

7453

[MVS]

I disagree that this is only a trigger control drill. For me anyway, it also is good for sight tracking and testing my grip. I have been shooting it and a couple of variations a lot lately. I have been noticing that around shots 6 or 7 my grip starts to break and I have to clamp back down. Now I realize that seldom will I be called on to shot 10 shots in a row under most circumstances but this could still be a clue that I need to concentrate a little more on grip. I always run the standard version from the holster and call all in the black a pass. The variations I run are 5R5, and 5SHO/5WHO. My best run today on the standard version, but from concealed holster, was a 7.45 second, 97 point 3X run.

[warpedcamshaft]

Cleaned "the test" for the first time today. 5 10's and 5 x's in 7.75.

Such a great drill.

Vickers and Hackathorn are very good at creating drills/standards.

[ST911]

I disagree that this is only a trigger control drill. For me anyway, it also is good for sight tracking and testing my grip. I have been shooting it and a couple of variations a lot lately. I have been noticing that around shots 6 or 7 my grip starts to break and I have to clamp back down. Now I realize that seldom will I be called on to shot 10 shots in a row under most circumstances but this could still be a clue that I need to concentrate a little more on grip.

Agreed. Trigger, sight tracking, grip, cadence. It is very revealing of grip issues for me as well. For reset shooters, a way to work with that. I use it at the start and end of the session.

[warpedcamshaft]

Also... since this thread has had a bit of a resurgence...

Hackathorn said on Tac TV: "If I could only practice one drill... The Test would be it."

[WobblyPossum]

Shot this three times today. Not a single run all in the black but my last one came closest:
8.69s-88/100
7.46s-81/100
8.82s-93/100

I definitely can make better use of my time during the drill, especially during that second run when I had over 2.5s remaining. I might start shouting this drill more often too because I like what it tests.

Eta: I shot all three runs from AIWB concealed under a button down shirt.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[imp1295]

I also really use this drill to see where I'm at from a overall closer range perspective. I like to use it as my first drill of the day as it can show me if I need to alter my plan for that range session. I also find it useful when starting a platform comparison on how I track the sights, see the sights etc.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GAP]

I'll be shooting this cold from now on at the beginning of each session. I'm enjoying the fact that I've found a small subcompact (G26) that I can shoot as well as a larger pistol.

[41magfan]

I modified THE TEST to 7 rounds in 7 seconds.

My two attempts with a Ruger LCP (6.12 sec & 6.71 sec)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/xrWrnJ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnxrWrnJj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/O7Wd0g.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poO7Wd0gj)

[John Hearne]

The Single Stack version of The Test, draw and fire 8 rounds in 10 seconds, is my "go to" drill. I like the fact that it incorporates a draw and tells you a lot in 8 rounds.

[warpedcamshaft]

I modified THE TEST to 7 rounds in 7 seconds.


Damn fine work... Lasergrips or irons?

[41magfan]

Damn fine work... Lasergrips or irons?

Just those little nubs they call sights .......

[warpedcamshaft]

Just those little nubs they call sights .......

I'm flat out impressed... LCP's require great attention to sights and trigger to shoot that well.

If you don't mind, could you do me a favor next time you are out? 5 shots @ 25 yards on any target and P.M. me the results group-wise... Just collecting info, if it isn't too much trouble.

[41magfan]

If you don't mind, could you do me a favor next time you are out? 5 shots @ 25 yards on any target and P.M. me the results group-wise... Just collecting info, if it isn't too much trouble.

Will do ...

[ASH556]

Shot the test this morning with a few friends. Not sure of my actual time because we all shot it together in a relay, but definitely inside the 10 sec par time buzzer. 100/100, 3x if I'm reading it correctly.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/F2675051-10B9-48E9-A5DF-5E87F3EB1891.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/F2675051-10B9-48E9-A5DF-5E87F3EB1891.jpg.html)

[GAP]

Glock 26 - Gen 4
99/100 - 4X in 9.04

7574

[Little Creek]

Anyone know right off hand what the diameter of the black is on the B8 target?

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

About 5.5"

[DEG]

Gen4 19 from concealment (appendix Fricke holster with t-shirt).

8.46 seconds
97/100 3x

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160430/7cd62b8e77ce4d3dcf613b6c2e7b1401.jpg

[That Guy]

First time ever shooting this test, the B-8 target, or with a 10s PAR. First time shooting a handgun in two weeks (I did run 50 rounds of buckshot through my shotgun yesterday, though).

Gun used was a Walther P99 with Trijicon HD sights. First shot fired in double action.

7591

First try went a bit over the time limit at 10.15 or so. Pulled the first and last shots to the 8 ring as well. Mmkay, let's try this again...

7592

7x, 3 nines, in just a hair over 9 seconds (I want to say 9.06, but unfortunately I can't say for sure). Now THAT is how it's done! 8)

[wvincent]

Wondering how I can adapt this to a 6 shot N frame.
1. 6 shots, 6 seconds
2. extend time and require a reload?

I want this to be tough, but not to the point of despair.

[scw2]

Wondering how I can adapt this to a 6 shot N frame.
1. 6 shots, 6 seconds
2. extend time and require a reload?

I want this to be tough, but not to the point of despair.


You could probably just add a reasonable par time for a revolver reload. Did some googling and Caleb at GunNuts seemed to have a 3.0 second reload par time for one of his drills. See the 1R2 par on this article (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/01/06/revolver-training-par-notes/)

[EMC]

My test results for the day:

Glock 17 Gen 4 from low ready
Time: 7.89
Score: 98/100

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/3geoxo.jpg (http://imageshack.com/f/pm3geoxoj)

[HCM]

Wondering how I can adapt this to a 6 shot N frame.
1. 6 shots, 6 seconds
2. extend time and require a reload?

I want this to be tough, but not to the point of despair.

6 shots in 6 seconds sounds reasonable

[Nephrology]

Ran this drill a ton this past weekend with my Gen 4 G19 - here are my 3 best targets/times so far:

http://i.imgur.com/sYAMO4p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CKun1PH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8sTcNjp.jpg

Time/score on the last one was 7.87 sec with what looks to me like 99-5x (or 98-5x, depending on how you score that bottom shot...)

[Nephrology]

Ran this drill a ton this past weekend with my Gen 4 G19 - here are my 3 best targets/times so far:

http://i.imgur.com/sYAMO4p.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CKun1PH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8sTcNjp.jpg

Time/score on the last one was 7.87 sec with what looks to me like 99-5x (or 98-5x, depending on how you score that bottom shot...)

oh - and, can't edit, but this was shot from an IDPA legal kydex OWB holster (no concealment).

[HopetonBrown]

I hadn't shot this in awhile, I've been working on my 25 yard bullseyes and a harder grip on the pistol. Working on these two really paid off; the bull at 5/10/15 seemed a lot bigger/easier to hit after shooting at them at 25.

5/27/16
Half Test (10 rounds, 5 yards, 5 seconds): 96
The Test 94
Super Test (10 rounds, 15 yards, 15 seconds): 96

[JAD]

oh - and, can't edit, but this was shot from an IDPA legal kydex OWB holster (no concealment).

I thought double stacks shot it from the ready. You're already shooting it really well, but how much closer to perfect could you get if you took 9.99 seconds from the ready?

[EricM]

100/5x in 9.05, 10 yards from low ready, Glock 17 Gen 4

Edit: Thought I should add that I was pretty well warmed up (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14678-EricM-s-Training-Journal-My-Journey-to-the-Dark-Side&p=450219#post450219) when I shot this, doubt I could do this cold -- but that's my new goal. :)

http://icedesigns.com/echo0603/pf/052916/t6.jpg

[Nephrology]

I thought double stacks shot it from the ready. You're already shooting it really well, but how much closer to perfect could you get if you took 9.99 seconds from the ready?

I'd miss the opportunity to practice my draw!

[JAD]

I'd miss the opportunity to practice my draw!

Not if you shot a 1911 like a god damned American.

[45dotACP]

Not if you shot a 1911 like a god damned American.
We should hang out. :D

[Nephrology]

I have one and don't shoot it... does that make me guilty of treason?

2 personal bests today on the Test, each marred by a flier (top flier in bottom pic was from a different string and not counted...)

http://i.imgur.com/WNqqQFZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n3MSmF8.jpg

[DacoRoman]

8306
8305

2 tests on same target. Both from the high ready with a gen 3 G19

#1) 7.38 sec, score 95
#2) 9.01 sec, score 95, but 12 rounds shot, oops

Sorry for crappy pictures and orientation, I'm trying to learn how to use drop box with my iPad

[Nephrology]

I have one and don't shoot it... does that make me guilty of treason?

2 personal bests today on the Test, each marred by a flier (top flier in bottom pic was from a different string and not counted...)

http://i.imgur.com/WNqqQFZ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/n3MSmF8.jpg

Again, forgot to clarify - shot from an IDPA legal OWB Kydex Holster, no concealment. I will shoot it from low ready.... one of these days.

[DacoRoman]

Again, forgot to clarify - shot from an IDPA legal OWB Kydex Holster, no concealment. I will shoot it from low ready.... one of these days.

Excellent shooting/time from the holster. I shot this drill for the first time this last April in a Hackathorn class. I passed every time but with low scores. It kicks my but. I can approach somewhat decent at 5-7 yard rapid fire shooting with .20 sec splits on an 8" target with a round sometimes two (when I get too target focused) dropped out of the A zone during a Bill Drill for example, and I can shoot 1" groups at 7yards and 3"-5" at 25 with no time pressure, but a more intermediate target with an emphasis on accuracy/precision AND time like the Test is definitely a weak spot for me. I'll have to start shooting the Test regularly, when I can use a range that allows for timer use, which is another problem. The other problem is starting to shoot regularly and avoiding binge training, but now I'm wining.

[Nephrology]

Excellent shooting/time from the holster. I shot this drill for the first time this last April in a Hackathorn class. I passed every time but with low scores. It kicks my but. I can approach somewhat decent at 5-7 yard rapid fire shooting with .20 sec splits on an 8" target with a round sometimes two (when I get too target focused) dropped out of the A zone during a Bill Drill for example, and I can shoot 1" groups at 7yards and 3"-5" at 25 with no time pressure, but a more intermediate target with an emphasis on accuracy/precision AND time like the Test is definitely a weak spot for me. I'll have to start shooting the Test regularly, when I can use a range that allows for timer use, which is another problem. The other problem is starting to shoot regularly and avoiding binge training, but now I'm wining.

thanks! It's definitely a tricky drill - it helps that I've shot it dozens of times in the past 2 weeks or so. I actually shot it so much that I ran out of B8 target centers... will have to print off more!

[jess87]

I will shoot it from low ready.... one of these days.




Think about all the extra X's you'll get with the extra time!

[Steaz]

Tried The Test for the first time today. Shot 4 times with WWB 115gr FMJ in a G19. Scores were 94(1x) 9/10 black 7.33s...95(4x) 9/10 black 6.77...98(5x) clean 6.43...97(4x) clean 8.24

The two passes shown below:

(the target is the back side of the kyle lamb vtac target, which is listed as an SR71 bull, but the dimensions are identical to the center of a B8, black is 5.5" circle, you can see it the squares are 1" and the black is 4 full squares and two 0.75 squares...also I measured them to be sure lol)

http://i.imgur.com/j9alA8s.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NONzZyH.jpg

[Steaz]

I ran two other pistols through The Test several times today. One was my very first .40 pistol, taken to the range for the first time.

My favorite tests/targets of the evening were:

FNS40 Federal Al case 180gr TMJ, 6.23 seconds, score 97/100 (almost clean, one was not in the black). (I also had a 7.23 94/100 with Gold Dots)
http://i.imgur.com/WX7t0zR.jpg


Glock 26 with Federal HST 147gr, same test, 6.52 seconds 96/100, clean
http://i.imgur.com/wUq3n5v.jpg

[GAP]

I am new to appendix carry and the NY1 trigger so I ran this several times in a row to see if I could clear it with a draw.

Glock 26 - Gen 4
NY1 Trigger/stock connector
JM Custom
Cheap blasting ammo

8787

8788

8789

8790

[DEG]

Ran this twice today, back to back with a P30 and a G4G17.

Tricky for me transitioning triggers without any dry fire in between, but it worked out okay. Pushed the P30 a bit left in comparison.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160627/fd0b9fe475343459441ac2b01795d500.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160627/d89358585a4256a73c6f8e54dfcdd569.jpg

[GAP]

G26 - Gen 4 right from my JM Custom. Finally hit 100 cold, now I just need two more in the X.

9146

[nycnoob]

G26 - Gen 4 right from my JM Custom. Finally hit 100 cold, now I just need two more in the X.


Really?

I would say, you are shooting it too slowly.

[CCT125US]

Really?

I would say, you are shooting it too slowly.

Ummm, I would say he did a damn fine job. This is a trigger control drill in which the goal is to use the alloted time and get the best hits possible. Looks good to me.

[GAP]

Really?

I would say, you are shooting it too slowly.

If I wrote down 10.01 you'd be correct.

Where's your target?
Did you read the rules of the test?
Can you show up to a range cold, draw and group like that with a subcompact?
Fitting name. :rolleyes:

[Luke]

Let me translate for my fellow "under 15,000 vocabulary points" brother.



"Man, that is some serious accuracy! You should try and shoot it faster and work on tracking your sights at speed."


And just for the record, real men draw shoot 5 reload and shoot 5...

[GAP]

Let me translate for my fellow "under 15,000 vocabulary points" brother.



"Man, that is some serious accuracy! You should try and shoot it faster and work on tracking your sights at speed."


And just for the record, real men draw shoot 5 reload and shoot 5...

I've been moving to cover as I reload, then tactical rolling back to the 10 yard line.

[Steaz]

Any love for the half test in here?

5 yards, low ready, 4.40 seconds, clean, 98/100, VP9, PPU 124gr FMJ
http://i67.tinypic.com/24vk46r.jpg

The Test 10 yard version 8.28 clean, 98, VP9, PPU 124
http://i67.tinypic.com/voagiq.jpg



I cannot do this every time, I'm about 50/50 on cleaning it. Always for missing the black, never for taking too long

[GAP]

B8s got too easy so I used an index card today.

Anyone else want to give it a whirl? :cool:

10094

[Luke]

I don't have one of those silly tiny guns but I'd love to give this a try with an index card. Hopefully Sunday!

[JHC]

G26 - Gen 4 right from my JM Custom. Finally hit 100 cold, now I just need two more in the X.

9146

Yer that G26 at 50 yards feller ain'tcha? Nice!!!

[GAP]

I don't have one of those silly tiny guns but I'd love to give this a try with an index card. Hopefully Sunday!

Haha.. same gun no matter what I'm wearing is a plus. ;)


Yer that G26 at 50 yards feller ain'tcha? Nice!!!

Yes sir, thanks, G26 Gen 4s with a flush mag have been my most accurate setup.

[ASH556]

I tried the 3x5 today, Gen 4 19, SS IWB under a polo. Could only get 9 on the card. Always seemed to drop one just off the edge. These are my best 2 out of 5 runs:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/7E2F36B8-B8C4-4D49-9B41-0632EFEA9267.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/7E2F36B8-B8C4-4D49-9B41-0632EFEA9267.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/DF38581D-9929-4015-82DD-261DDB768381.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/DF38581D-9929-4015-82DD-261DDB768381.jpg.html)

[GAP]

Nice! Glad to see you tried it!

[Sadmin]

Made it out this morning to shoot this. Wasn't cold, I shot a 1 hole cadence drill first thing.

7.44 was my best
G19L

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160827/98eae6f0046deb60541a0eb545cb03a1.jpg


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[DEG]

B8s got too easy so I used an index card today.

Anyone else want to give it a whirl? :cool:

10094

B8s are definitely not getting too easy for me, but I gave the index card a try this morning at ten yards.

I did have a ten round warmup, and shot the drill from low ready with G4G19-1. The last shot just _barely_ nicked the card, or at least that's what I'm telling myself :)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160828/6676621458a11835b33e566491eb13cc.jpg

[Jeff22]

Simple yet challenging drills are one of the foundations of skill development

[PensFan]

Funny this one slipped my mind for a long time. Shot it twice today. First run was a 7.44 but I jerked one outside.
Slowed a bit and shot a 8.28 with a G19 Gen5.

Cool app out there. TargetScan

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181002/1eeb6fb305f1ee0b497fdcee1757c669.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181002/bc634e57489130e943549526ed0c5ec5.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DEG]

B8s are definitely not getting too easy for me, but I gave the index card a try this morning at ten yards.

I did have a ten round warmup, and shot the drill from low ready with G4G19-1. The last shot just _barely_ nicked the card, or at least that's what I'm telling myself :)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160828/6676621458a11835b33e566491eb13cc.jpg

A couple of years later from that post; shot again a few weeks ago. I like this variation of the drill. Low ready with a P30.

31756

[Kanye Wyoming]

I really like the G45 and I think it makes me a better shooter than I really am (whereas the G19 yields results that more accurately reflect my mediocrity). Despite my misgivings due to the lack of a Gadget for it, I couldn’t resist and picked up a VP9 a few weeks ago.

My unscientific impressions from a few range visits to break in the VP9 were that it made me a little better still. The recent thread here about the Glock grip angle- https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34471-I-don-t-get-the-Glock-Grip-cliche-evidence - prompted me to do a head-to-head comparison yesterday with the G45 on The Test.

While it hasn’t yet been published in a peer reviewed journal, my research suggests that the science is now settled that stout, balding middle-aged lawyers shoot the VP9 a bit better than the G45.

For each, I shot The Test twice in succession, then shot the Splatterburst target below with 10 rounds from 10 yards, untimed and at a steady but slower pace, to get a sense of my inherent accuracy with each.

G45: stock (with Ameriglo sights), except for Gadget
VP9: stock except front sight painted bright red.


34156

34157

My score on the first VP9 run was my best ever. Although she has many good qualities, my wife stubbornly refuses to allow me to put the target on the fridge.

[ASH556]

Shot this today with Beretta 92A1 from the holster:

https://i.imgur.com/0n5ufgil.jpg

[GreenMountainArmory]

36372

100-7X shot last weekend with a stock gen 3 Glock 17 apart from the Proctor Y-Notch sights

[Artemas2]

This continued heat and humidity has killed my desire for any USPSA style practice and it has been ages since I did any kind of group shooting.

Shot the LTT cold from concealment (cold as in I last touched it in May)
8.64 seconds
94 pts/ 3 1/2x
124 WWB Nato
I shanked the first 3 shots on the LTT, the trigger travel on the gun feels like a 10 hour drive.
75502

Shadow 2 from low ready
8.84 seconds
98pts/ 4x
125BBITC @ 132PF
The shadow2 with the gamer loads was taking forever to settle from recoil, the low shot was me trying to push the gun down faster.
75503

[1Rangemaster]

Muddling through the internet yesterday, I came across the “Vickers 2 yard torture test”. It takes 40 rounds, but it did remind me of “The Test”-10 rounds from ready in 10 seconds on a B8 at ten yards. Why not this then for my Friday afternoon weekend tuneup? And, just for a little pressure and education, shoot with an old faithful G19 with irons, cold.
I have been working for the better part of two years with dots…
Relieved to report I can still see the sights somewhat: 99 points in 8.29 seconds.
I quit while I was ahead…
(Edit: I still have to figure out how to post pics…)

[1Rangemaster]

I got an old companion back today: a Colt LW Commander in .45acp that had the slide refinished and a gold bead front sight installed. I maybe bring this old warhorse out once a year for sentimental reasons. I wanted to check the sights quickly in close, so I decided a quick run of the Test in its classic form: 8 rounds from the draw on a B8. I checked hits at 3,5 and 7 yards just to make sure things weren’t way off-gtg. Put the target at 10 yards and let’r rip! All in the black in 10.29 seconds; 95 points scored, grouping slightly right.
I recall Ken Hackathorn would give .30 seconds to account for the buzzer, and I’m taking that today. 230 hardball was a little startling after all the 9x19 over the past year.
A run to finish with my work G45 and a Holosun EPS yielded a 98 in 9 seconds and change, all “in the black”. The 9 in a polymer gun with optic is just easier. Nice to know I can hit ok with both still.

[GJM]

I got an old companion back today: a Colt LW Commander in .45acp that had the slide refinished and a gold bead front sight installed. I maybe bring this old warhorse out once a year for sentimental reasons. I wanted to check the sights quickly in close, so I decided a quick run of the Test in its classic form: 8 rounds from the draw on a B8. I checked hits at 3,5 and 7 yards just to make sure things weren’t way off-gtg. Put the target at 10 yards and let’r rip! All in the black in 10.29 seconds; 95 points scored, grouping slightly right.
I recall Ken Hackathorn would give .30 seconds to account for the buzzer, and I’m taking that today. 230 hardball was a little startling after all the 9x19 over the past year.
A run to finish with my work G45 and a Holosun EPS yielded a 98 in 9 seconds and change, all “in the black”. The 9 in a polymer gun with optic is just easier. Nice to know I can hit ok with both still.

Same test, Gen 5 20 with Underwood hard cast.


https://youtu.be/bfD_lrkTBWE

It is a tad bit easier with 9mm!


https://youtu.be/nha6D7wN2k4

[JHC]

Tad bit???? :D

[1Rangemaster]

Very nice work GJM! That’s like, what $20+ of ammo in less time than it takes a bill to burn ?!

You recall your score w/the nine?

[1Rangemaster]

…as it’s intriguing to me.
I shot this with a co-worker at lunch time. Pretty sure he had 10/10-the Post-it note flapped, and I had a 9/10-argh! The miss at 3 o’clock, 1/4 inch off, was from a two shot sequence. I just need to tighten up the grip a bit. G45 w/a red 6 moa EPS and a Performance Trigger we are evaluating.
I shot it a little later w/a new G44. All of this is on an illuminated indoor range. Because I was checking zero, I did it at 6 yards and got 10/10. It occurs to me that the G44 might be fun and instructive at 10 yards with the Heinie fiber optic sight I put on.
I’ll get 10 for 10 with everything at some point…

Oops- this should be on the Dyal thread- oh well…

[Crusader]

Big fan of the test, with a Glock 44 it feels like you’re cheating. Getting a 100 in the 7 second range is very doable, 9mm Glocks with a 99-97 in the 8’s is normal. With .40’s I almost always pass but in the 9 second range with usually 2 or three in the 9 ring.

But whatever the reason, I suck with a 45 in the test. Usually don’t pass, either 1 or 2 shots in the 8 or if I get all 10 in I’m over the lime limit. I’m actually dreading trying it with my G41 failing the Test with a long slide Glock what an ego crusher.

[RJ]

I'm always glad to see this thread get topped, the test has been a staple of mine for a while. And Ken even has a version for us boomers:

106893

[RJ]

So out of interest I fitted a closer fit bushing from EGW in my Garrison and reshot The Test today (8). Although my score was identical (74) my group size seemed a little better.

I had been looking at a new video by Rob of British Muzzleloaders on YT, and he mentioned the term "Figure of Merit" he was using as part of his work up on a new Martini Carbine. Apparently, FOM is a measure of the mean radial distance from the center of the group. It turns out Rob posted a link to his "FOM Calculator", an *.xls file, on the video where he goes into this. Anyway, one thing led to another and I populated a FOM spreadsheet using the data from both targets (stock Springfield Bushing and EGW bushing).

I downloaded the file, converted it to *.ods so I could import it into LibreOffice on my Linux box, and entered the X and Y data. (Shout out to stomridertx for his very useful B-8's, with 1" grid. They make it very easy.)

107264

This is a bit busy, but on the left is the FOM for the gun with stock parts, and on the right with the EGW bushing.

FOM (stock): 1.69", Group Size 5.36"
FOM (EGW): 1.19" Group size 3.12"

The only differences are the left hand target was shot with American Eagle 230 FMJ, and the right with Federal Hi-Shok 230 JHP. Oh and I had a Talon front strap on the gun today, added recently.

I am pretty pleased with the apparent reduction in group size. I can perhaps attribute some of that to more accurate ammo (maybe?) but I don't have a lot of extensive experience with .45 to know. I picked AE as a reliable ball load, and the Hi-shok as a (relatively) affordable standard pressure JHP for Pin Shooting.

Now I just have to figure out POA for my current sights, and I should have 8 in the black. :cool:

[Crusader]

That’s pretty neat, what kind of times are you getting. For me to get all eight in the black, I go over the 10 sec time.

I don’t shoot my 45s often, but I looked back over my training log this year at times I ran a 45 in the test. I don’t usually add up my score just look at goes and no goes.

Here’s what I’ve done with 45s.

Kimber CDP pro- 6 goes 2 8’s in 10.15
M&P 45- 9 goes 1-8 10.56
SA MC-OP- all 8 goes, but in a whopping 12.45
SA TRP- all 8 goes, but over the rime 10.66

So only ran a 45 four times this year in the test, but ouch…0 for 4. It really stumps me as with 9 and even 40 I always pass, it’s pretty weird.

[RJ]

That’s pretty neat, what kind of times are you getting. For me to get all eight in the black, I go over the 10 sec time.

I don’t shoot my 45s often, but I looked back over my training log this year at times I ran a 45 in the test. I don’t usually add up my score just look at goes and no goes.

Here’s what I’ve done with 45s.

Kimber CDP pro- 6 goes 2 8’s in 10.15
M&P 45- 9 goes 1-8 10.56
SA MC-OP- all 8 goes, but in a whopping 12.45
SA TRP- all 8 goes, but over the rime 10.66

So only ran a 45 four times this year in the test, but ouch…0 for 4. It really stumps me as with 9 and even 40 I always pass, it’s pretty weird.

I don't have access to a range where I can draw from the holster unfortunately, so I make do at the square range. I've taken my timer a couple times but it has a hard time separating shots from the stalls next to me. So I just do the best I can from low ready, shooting at cadence to finish within "8 seconds." (I think I recall reading somewhere Ken's guidelines for The Test with an 8 shot mag was 8 seconds?) For me it's more about consistency as I'm not a particularly good shooter. Having said that, you raise a good point; I can certainly bring my AMG Commander with me next weekly range session. I go during the week and there's a decent chance not so many people are around me.

Lately I've been shooting this drill exploring the TLG approach to using your sights that TCinVA outlined in his excellent thread below. Basically, if I see the target framed in the rear window, press (don't wait). Funny, my groups are better the faster I shoot, it almost feels like.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55332-Todd-Louis-Green-and-the-modern-approach-to-using-your-sights

[breakingtime91]

107356

First test in a year.

[Crusader]

I’ve mentioned the difficulties I have with the test and 45 acp.

Well today I ran it with my favorite 1911, a Wilson Combat CQB with a few Wilson upgrades. Blended magwell, ambi bullet prof safety and WC combat sights. It was not from concealment but I was using a Safariland ALS retention holster.

The run felt fantastic, good fast clean draw. Shot the X right out of the target for a perfect 100 score, I thought yes that was outstanding. Then I glanced at my timer a 10.27, #*&$ I could have cried failed again.

[1Rangemaster]

I’ve mentioned the difficulties I have with the test and 45 acp.

Well today I ran it with my favorite 1911, a Wilson Combat CQB with a few Wilson upgrades. Blended magwell, ambi bullet prof safety and WC combat sights. It was not from concealment but I was using a Safariland ALS retention holster.

The run felt fantastic, good fast clean draw. Shot the X right out of the target for a perfect 100 score, I thought yes that was outstanding. Then I glanced at my timer a 10.27, #*&$ I could have cried failed again.

Crusader, I’m going to be a rationalizing enabler…
Hackathorn used to give .30 seconds for the buzzer, and I think that’s an old practical shooting rule too.
FWIW-and you don’t pay anything for my opinion, I think that’s a solid run! I’d take it!

[Crusader]

Well finally past the Test with a 45acp, had to go to my Glock 41. If I failed it with that I was gonna give up shooting, a 97 in 9.54.

https://i.postimg.cc/9FvRCh4C/IMG-8871.jpg (https://postimg.cc/dLjtjgmx)

[SG29736]

Crusader, I’m going to be a rationalizing enabler…
Hackathorn used to give .30 seconds for the buzzer, and I think that’s an old practical shooting rule too.
FWIW-and you don’t pay anything for my opinion, I think that’s a solid run! I’d take it!

The .30 second allowance is generally used on stages where the shooter is penalized for an overtime shot. I've shot this once years ago in Vickers class. Most were shooting 9mm, a couple of 40 shooters at most. I was shooting my 1911 45 with semi wadcutters, my regular major power factor loads I shoot in USPSA . He only scored all in the black or not. I had 10 round mags. I shot it in 8.5 all in the black. The clean 45 holes looked huge after all the 9mm round nose targets. That was my highlight of the class. It was supposed to be the first time Vickers and Leatham taught a class together but Leatham ended up getting hurt before the class.

[G19Fan]

The Test from low ready with a p365xl (macro frame and eps carry circle dot). Unfortunately didn't pass on time.


111828

[Crusader]

Except for that one that dropped in the 8 ring that’s really nice grouping, got a feeling you’ll be passing the teat in no time at all.

Whenever I shot a string and have that one shot pulled, I always think about Super Troopers. What this little guy here, you don’t need to worry about that little guy.

[G19Fan]

Except for that one that dropped in the 8 ring that’s really nice grouping, got a feeling you’ll be passing the teat in no time at all.

Whenever I shot a string and have that one shot pulled, I always think about Super Troopers. What this little guy here, you don’t need to worry about that little guy.

Haha yup love that line

With a slimline my passing this is probably 50% or so. Usually I am betwen 9.51 to 10.65 so that is my band. Could def have sped up this last set though

[JCN]

got a feeling you’ll be passing the teat in no time at all.

Wut?

[Crusader]

Wut?

Ha ha…fat fingers on a little phone, another great line from a movie. But John said Fat guy in a little coat.

[G19Fan]

2 passes score and time p365xl macro low ready

First is a 96 in 9.78

Second a 90 in 8.60

[G19Fan]

Hmmm...just realized that all shots need to be in the black

[WobblyPossum]

Hmmm...just realized that all shots need to be in the black

That depends on how you want to score it. Vickers and Hackathorn did it differently. I believe Vickers preferred all in the black and Hackathorn preferred 90 points or above. I might have those backwards.

[G19Fan]

That depends on how you want to score it. Vickers and Hackathorn did it differently. I believe Vickers preferred all in the black and Hackathorn preferred 90 points or above. I might have those backwards.

Thanks! Will work on getting all 10 in the black and under time

[Crusader]

Pretty sure with either Vickers or Hack all shots had to be in the black to pass, Hack just added the scoring.

Either way that’s the way I do it, anything out of the black is an automatic no go.

[G19Fan]

Pretty sure with either Vickers or Hack all shots had to be in the black to pass, Hack just added the scoring.

Either way that’s the way I do it, anything out of the black is an automatic no go.

Evidently vickers all black. Hack 90 or above. I should try for all black

https://youtu.be/zE9TtOwKA4I?si=U8oac5-CnD-bcK40

[JCN]

Evidently vickers all black. Hack 90 or above. I should try for all black

https://youtu.be/zE9TtOwKA4I?si=U8oac5-CnD-bcK40

Note that if you want to improve a skill, practice methodology is different than testing methodology.

So in order to improve a test result, you might do something different than just running the test over and over.


https://youtu.be/qxyNK8U1xMs?si=zWDGA12SPQuRdndA

For example this was the first time I had her run this. But because of what we were doing in practice, I expected it to be fine. I can break the training down for anyone who wants to do better at the test.

[G19Fan]

Note that if you want to improve a skill, practice methodology is different than testing methodology.

So in order to improve a test result, you might do something different than just running the test over and over.


https://youtu.be/qxyNK8U1xMs?si=zWDGA12SPQuRdndA

For example this was the first time I had her run this. But because of what we were doing in practice, I expected it to be fine. I can break the training down for anyone who wants to do better at the test.

Sure! That can only be helpful to all.

[JCN]

Sure! That can only be helpful to all.

It's only helpful to people who want help...

Running drills over and over without improving skills is like playing soccer games and trying to get better.

You kind of can, but it's more efficient to work on component drills in practice where you can experiment with things, use training wheels, improve mechanics in a progressive and graded fashion.

Pretty much all of these tactical tests are variations on a very simple theme.

It basically comes down to SWYNTS training.

[JCN]

1. Check your trigger press mechanics. Untimed 10 shots at 10 yards. Goal is 2” centered circle.

If you can’t keep them well within a 4” target at 10 untimed, you have no chance at succeeding with time and recoil added in.

Work on dry trigger presses at speed. Have to be able to have that accuracy with a medium aggressive pull, not a bullseye trigger pull.



2. After the trigger presses are squared away, you can work on recoil management.

Set three 3-4” circles at 10 yards and from on target (not low ready) shoot three shots at a 0.7-8 second cadence. Repeat on next circle. And next circle. You’re working for consistency and not for a lucky three.

Keep working these until you’re able to keep all shots within an acceptable radius (your acceptable will be a personal choice based off what your commitment level is).


Basically there’s no “good enough” and you can always keep learning and improving if you don’t settle.

I keep pushing this parameter to either go faster or tighter, but you’ll quickly be able to exceed the tactical standard if you’re continuing to learn from every shot.


https://youtu.be/A-uySOwBeVQ?si=CF_W-qBhPAHXpoyG

[JCN]

G19Fan

This is an example of what I’m talking about.

This is untimed, unsupported at 10 yards.

112724

Which translates to this with a time limit and recoil management.


https://youtu.be/rrTKtlHHbs0?si=iU0H1sftHuSGCnf3

Note that I didn’t stop at 10 shots, just at 10 seconds.

Because it’s not about getting a lucky 10 shots, it’s about being able to do it again and again.

112725

I could go faster, sure. But then I’d cut it closer to the “fail zone.”




IMO it’s about being consistent under pressure and having margin.

Because if you flinch 10% of the time… what’s to say that won’t be the first shot you pull or jerk and maybe that’s the shot you really needed to hit dead on…

[G19Fan]

G19Fan

This is an example of what I’m talking about.

This is untimed, unsupported at 10 yards.

112724

Which translates to this with a time limit and recoil management.


https://youtu.be/rrTKtlHHbs0?si=iU0H1sftHuSGCnf3

Note that I didn’t stop at 10 shots, just at 10 seconds.

Because it’s not about getting a lucky 10 shots, it’s about being able to do it again and again.

112725

I could go faster, sure. But then I’d cut it closer to the “fail zone.”




IMO it’s about being consistent under pressure and having margin.

Because if you flinch 10% of the time… what’s to say that won’t be the first shot you pull or jerk and maybe that’s the shot you really needed to hit dead on…

This all makes sense. Thanks!

[JCN]

This all makes sense. Thanks!

It’s also why you don’t practice slow fire on a B8 black at 10 yards or untimed dot torture at 5 yards and expect that to be good at speed.

Ask more from yourself in consistency and achievement and you’ll learn more in the same amount of time as the crew that pats themselves on the back no matter the result and says “I’m happy with that.”

That’s literally the recipe for stagnation. They’ve already determined that they’re content with the results so no learning happens.

No matter how “good” I get, I’m always learning.

[JCN]

As a personal bias, I don't think 5 yard accuracy drills on circles are a good idea.

I said it.

Height over bore, especially with optics makes holdover a thing at those distances.

I would rather have a 4" target at 10 yards for training than a 2" target at 5 yards.

If something is 5 yards away, you're not going to be slow firing 0.40 splits or you'll get a knife to the skull or a fist to your face.

When you train for accuracy on a circle, I recommend minimum of 7 yards and preferably 10 or greater with an RDS lest height over bore will give you misleading feedback.

Sure, legacy training has people doing 2" circles at 5 yards. That might have been okay in iron days, but there's a distinct height over bore offset with RDS at those distances unless you have a crazy short zero.

When I have to do accuracy drills on close targets because of scaling, I pick slim rectangles so I don't have to account for height over bore.

[MDFA]

First day at the range with my .45 P320. 97/100 on the 10-10-10 Test. 185gr. Berry's HBRN Reloads. 8.07 Time at the Indoor Range. Sig's not selling a XTen Carry Module. I cut and beveled a Full Size XTen Module for the .45 Compact. The Wilson Extended Slide Release works on the .45 Module and Slide just fine by the way. I do wish Wilson Combat would make their Module for the 10/45 to take those magazines. I like the XTen Module, it's a great improvement over the stock module for me, but I do prefer the Wilson. I added a SIG Flat Trigger as well.
114540

[Stuffbreaker]

Just got a challenge coin at my local indoor range with a three-string drill on the B8 target that included The Test.

All strings shot from low ready. Minimum score 270/300 under par times, or 90% of points for a coin. Shot 282/300 cold with my P320 Max.


String 1 at 5 yards: 10 rounds in less than 5.0 seconds (ran it in 4.6 seconds)

String 2 at 10 yards: "The Test" 10 rounds in less than 10.0 seconds (ran it in 6.7 seconds)

String 3 at 15 yards: 10 rounds in less than 15.0 seconds (ran it in 7.8 seconds).

[WobblyPossum]

Just got a challenge coin at my local indoor range with a three-string drill on the B8 target that included The Test.

All strings shot from low ready. Minimum score 270/300 under par times, or 90% of points for a coin. Shot 282/300 cold with my P320 Max.


String 1 at 5 yards: 10 rounds in less than 5.0 seconds (ran it in 4.6 seconds)

String 2 at 10 yards: "The Test" 10 rounds in less than 10.0 seconds (ran it in 6.7 seconds)

String 3 at 15 yards: 10 rounds in less than 15.0 seconds (ran it in 7.8 seconds).

Those three strings together are a variant of The Test popularized by Darryl Bolke and Wayne Dobbs. It’s called The Super Test.

[JohnO]

As a personal bias, I don't think 5 yard accuracy drills on circles are a good idea.

I said it.

Height over bore, especially with optics makes holdover a thing at those distances.

I would rather have a 4" target at 10 yards for training than a 2" target at 5 yards.

If something is 5 yards away, you're not going to be slow firing 0.40 splits or you'll get a knife to the skull or a fist to your face.

When you train for accuracy on a circle, I recommend minimum of 7 yards and preferably 10 or greater with an RDS lest height over bore will give you misleading feedback.

Sure, legacy training has people doing 2" circles at 5 yards. That might have been okay in iron days, but there's a distinct height over bore offset with RDS at those distances unless you have a crazy short zero.

When I have to do accuracy drills on close targets because of scaling, I pick slim rectangles so I don't have to account for height over bore.

Respectfully.

Don't you think it is appropriate to train for close targets. Especially if you are working with a height over bore offset. What would be wrong with having the skill to hit a 1" square at 3 yards regardless of your sighting system? I think the individual should be familiar with how their gun performs at all distances.

[G19Fan]

Respectfully.

Don't you think it is appropriate to train for close targets. Especially if you are working with a height over bore offset. What would be wrong with having the skill to hit a 1" square at 3 yards regardless of your sighting system? I think the individual should be familiar with how their gun performs at all distances.

Can't speak for JCN but I think it is because doing this at close range has limited use once you figure out holdover

[1Rangemaster]

I’m going to have to go with JohnO on this one.
There is a height over bore issue at close range, whether you’re working with a pistol optic, rifle optic or irons on an AR platform. For me, I know it’s there, and I practice with the pistol optic from 2 to three yards and back on a representative target. My thinking is one doesn’t know what the problem will be, so to speak, so one trains with as many variables as possible.
YMMV, etc…

Edit to add: on the”Test”, @10 yards I am looking at the black of the B8 and trying to keep the dancing dot in the black as I work the trigger…

[breakingtime91]

I’m going to have to go with JohnO on this one.
There is a height over bore issue at close range, whether you’re working with a pistol optic, rifle optic or irons on an AR platform. For me, I know it’s there, and I practice with the pistol optic from 2 to three yards and back on a representative target. My thinking is one doesn’t know what the problem will be, so to speak, so one trains with as many variables as possible.
YMMV, etc…

Edit to add: on the”Test”, @10 yards I am looking at the black of the B8 and trying to keep the dancing dot in the black as I work the trigger…

^Agreed

A lot of untrained AR users really fuck up easy shots because they don't practice to deal with their height over bore. Training is one thing, real life have to take that type of shot inside my house with kids running around or God forbid a dirt bag holding one of my kids. I better know that hold.

[camel]

^Agreed

A lot of untrained AR users really fuck up easy shots because they don't practice to deal with their height over bore. Training is one thing, real life have to take that type of shot inside my house with kids running around or God forbid a dirt bag holding one of my kids. I better know that hold.

Not everything is a linear problem.

[willie]

When I was a kid, I got tons of discarded soft drink bottle caps from our general store. I used these as very close range targets by placing them on the ground on either side of a cow path. I shot as I walked. My method was taking up enough front sight. Handguns varied. I never forgot the lesson.

[1Rangemaster]

On a bit of a lark today, I took my brand new TR G19 MOS with stock polymer sighs(!) to the indoor range just to see how things would shake out. From the ready with 147 gr.jhp Winchester: 97 points in 8.85 seconds, all “in the black”. I was pleased since (a) I had not shot in a few days, (b)it was the cold run of the day and (c) it was with the dang Glock sights.
This gun will be a retirement gun and will receive an optic. Everything else is OEM; after a few hundred vetting rounds it will be carried a lot and shot little.
I appreciate this forum once again as I scrolled back through the years and saw my attempts and others.

[Crusader]

A couple days ago I shot it with my M17 (stock irons) I don’t shoot that gun often. But got a 8.88 all in the black with a 98 score, while I’m a Glock guy. I find I shoot the M17 fairly well and I’ve never had an issue with it with around 2000 rounds fired, I can see why the US Army went with it. Simple reliable and a good shooter.