Electric vehicles catch-all thread [Archive]

rob_s

02-21-2022, 08:30 AM

We have a thread on hybrid vehicles (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41137-Hybrid-Vehicles/page4), and ones specific to the Hummer EV (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45118-Hummer-EV), the Mach E (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47251-Ford-electric-Mustang-Mach-E), and the Tesla Truck (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39509-Tesla-Truck) (maybe others, this is what I found with a quick search), and the Truck (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23563-Trucks) and Car (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39701-The-Semi-Unofficial-Pistol-Forum-Car-geek-gearhead-hot-rodder-and-vehicle-thread) threads have had tangents regarding EV, but I thought it might be interesting to consolidate and also talk about where the tech is headed. Based on some of those other threads it sounds like there are folks here that have some relevant professional experience as well.

I think the topic can be pretty open, but if your sole contribution is “you ain’t takin mah vee ate” then maybe not reply?

I myself would have never thought I would even consider an EV, but the Mach E started to turn my opinion with this video (https://youtu.be/Y3846KFDmFQ), and the Rivian (https://rivian.com/) has definitely gotten my attention by ALSO being innovative in ways that aren’t limited to the drivetrain.

45dotACP

02-21-2022, 09:40 AM

NH Shooter

02-21-2022, 09:46 AM

For the green factor, no. Short of recharging by solar or wind, who's kidding who?

For the performance factor, hell yeah. There's something to be said for making torque at zero RPM.

JohnO

02-21-2022, 09:58 AM

I drive a company car. A number of years ago my place was looking to appear the good corporate citizen. They decided to put everyone they could into EVs. Everyone with a fleet vehicle had to fill out a questioner used to determine if your job function and driving requirements could be accomplished with an EV. Included in the process was a company provided and installed charging station at the home.

The program kicked off in another part of the country first, a pilot. We heard someone's home caught fire and sustained significant damage. The company installed charging station & car caught fire damaging the home. Years have passed and there is zero talk of going electric. The idea died fast.

GJM

02-21-2022, 10:17 AM

We had a deposit on a Tesla 3, to dip our feet into the EV thing, but my wife took to calling it Chairman Mao's car and put her foot down. She wants a Mamba green Cross Tourismo.

blues

02-21-2022, 10:21 AM

Chairman Mao's car, General Tso's chicken...what's next?

The people's court?

;)

bofe954

02-21-2022, 10:35 AM

I'd be interested in not going to gas stations anymore. I had some electrical work done on my house and had a 220V outlet put in my garage while they were at it. I think my next vehicle will plug in, but probably hybrid. Take a road trip a few times a year and just don't want the hassle.

Navin Johnson

02-21-2022, 01:34 PM

Electric vehicles make sense for commuter cars and low load short range work vehicles at this time. They are not logical for long range or high load applications.

Electricity is not free and cannot be had from wind and solar in adequate amounts to support a large shift to electric vehicles.
Nuclear power could fix this. California has rolling brownouts now in the summer what about when you put another 4 or 5 million electric cars on the grid.

The Japanese have been slow to go electric because they believe hydrogen is a far better answer as it is truly zero emission unlike electricity.

Remember it is not recommended to charge the batteries above 80% except on occasion for long trips so figure that into your mileage. Also performance is always measured at near full or full batteries .......try measuring performance at 30% battery.

Comparable electric vehicles cost 30% more than ice vehicles yet resale value is poor even in my area where we have cheap hydroelectric power.

Yes for all practical purposes the V8 is gone as we're going to go to smaller boosted motors. Service departments call that job security btw.
.
If you're going to buy an electric vehicle for heavy use like a truck buy one from a manufacturer that knows how to build trucks.

I love the idea of being able to charge my vehicle at home and never having to go to a gas station so it's ready to go every morning even if electricity cost is much as regular fuels.

I don't know much about charging stations but was told by a guy no that he paid to use a rapid charger and it cost almost as much as filling up his other car.

The industry is in its infancy and vehicles are likely to improve leaps and bounds over the next 5 years and prices should come more in line with ice vehicles.

Smaller lighter batteries (The one in the upcoming avalanche weighs as much as a Honda Civic) and the ability to charge to 80% in 15 to 20 minutes are at the types of improvements that need to happen to be more mainstream. And pricing.

Jim Watson

02-21-2022, 03:25 PM

The Japanese have been slow to go electric because they believe hydrogen is a far better answer as it is truly zero emission unlike electricity.

And where do they say the hydrogen is to come from?

MickAK

02-21-2022, 03:44 PM

I just want a Cyber truck so I can put a diesel generator in the back and when people ask me why, pause dramatically and say 'Bitcoin' throw on shades and drive off.

I have a tri-motor reserved but I have absolutely no idea when it will show up, or if. I have lots of ways of producing my own electricity and very few of producing my own diesel, and I don't have a lot of faith in supply infrastructure scaling without hiccups.

Navin Johnson

02-21-2022, 04:03 PM

And where do they say the hydrogen is to come from?

Not my thing I know they have hydrogen stations in California.

And I'm not a person who gives a rat's ass about emissions within reason so I was a bit incorrect there is some use of natural gas to produce the hydrogen

The current cars in production are hydrogen powered electric cars

I think the big advantage of hydrogen is it be easy to convert gas stations to have both hydrogen and gasoline and it only takes a few minutes to fill up hydrogen car.....this is what I was told by a techie Toyota technician

Jim Watson

02-21-2022, 04:14 PM

There is LARGE use of natural gas to produce hydrogen, electrolytic hydrogen is a small product in the US.
Norway used to do it because they had a lot of hydro power relative to other demands. I don't know what they do now.

Fuel cell electric looks kewl. I'd have to do an energy balance vs just burning the hydrogen... or natural gas.

Crashpad

02-21-2022, 04:17 PM

I'm really looking forward to advances in electric motorcycles. A sub $10K bike with a 100 mile range and a top speed around 80mph would be awesome for my daily commute.

I've ridden a Livewire One and Harley has announced plans for a couple of smaller, less expensive models. Zero has several interesting looking bikes.
If Honda would offer an electric GROM it would be awesome.

Darth_Uno

02-21-2022, 04:27 PM

Mom was ranting about how nobody wants electric cars, and I told her I'd get one. That seemed to surprise her. All "save the planet" politics aside (and the fact that creating electricity ain't a carbon-free ride), the technology is there. Electric vehicles can hang with gas engines. And I'll likely have electric trucks in my fleet within ten years. That's just the way it's looking like it's gonna go.

TBH I'm not really worried about emissions (I've got a 5.7 Tundra now) but if I can charge my work fleet at my shop for a fraction of the price of gas, hell yeah sign me up.

RancidSumo

02-21-2022, 04:35 PM

Paul D

02-21-2022, 04:38 PM

I recently added solar to my home. Now I don't pay any electrical bills (for the most part). I'm looking at getting a RAV4 Prime. It is part hybrid, part EV. It can drive about 45 miles one charge and has about 310 HP. It is the 2nd fastest car in Toyota's US fleet. It think it will be great for day to day use and to drive to California without worry using gas.

How much of a hassle is it to install an charger at home?

Do they make batteries for home solar energy storage?

Jim Watson

02-21-2022, 04:39 PM

The Honda Clarity pluggable hybrid that came nearest to suiting my needs did not last long. Charging would have been problematical, I don't have a 220 in the garage nor much extra house capacity to have it added. I could have gotten by with the 12 hour charge on 110 with some scheduling, though.

Darth_Uno

02-21-2022, 04:44 PM

I'm still concerned though that my car will end up like my phone - obsolete in less than 5 years. At some point I've got to just jump in, but I don't know when that point is.

I don't really see that happening. The biggest hurdle is range, so worst case scenario your battery doesn't get the miles that a new one would. I don't know enough to say how upgradeable that might be.

And while you're likely fine sporting about town, you can't just whip into the gas station and fill up. Your range has to be planned around. Which is fine for my work fleet, which pretty much doesn't leave the county and can "top off" at my shop (or they could, if I had electric trucks and chargers).

Charging stations are also getting more common for local "fill ups", but there's not quite the infrastructure to go cross-country. I expect there will be in the next decade.

Darth_Uno

02-21-2022, 05:02 PM

How much of a hassle is it to install an charger at home?

Not much more than adding any other 220v circuit. Depending on the charger it's a basic 40 or 50 amp line, hardwired to the charger. That's a pretty good pull though, so you may need to upgrade your service or plan around other appliances in use.

02-21-2022, 05:37 PM

Paul D

02-21-2022, 05:57 PM

Not much more than adding any other 220v circuit. Depending on the charger it's a basic 40 or 50 amp line, hardwired to the charger. That's a pretty good pull though, so you may need to upgrade your service or plan around other appliances in use.

Thanks! For you folks who have a Level 2 charger, what brands/models do you guys like?

I am really warming up to the idea of an EV for regular life ever since I got solar. It's like reloading your own ammo! With increasing unreliability of power grids (see N. California) and improving tech, it makes sense to gain some energy independence.

The only folks who may lose out on this are the poor who cannot afford the new technology but yet can't afford the increasingly more expensive old tech (internal combustion engines and fuel).

0ddl0t

02-21-2022, 06:16 PM

I'm impressed with Lucid. Right now they're following the Tesla business model and have just started delivering their $170k ultra-luxury model, but versions costing well under $100k are in the pipeline. I like the 400-500 mile range and especially like getting an additional 300 miles of range with 30 minutes of fast charging. These days if I do a 400+ mile drive, I'm stopping at least once for a 30 minute meal/stretch break.

The innovative thing Lucid does with this fast charging is it allows you to schedule your stop on long road trips. In doing so, it pre-cools the battery pack so it can accept fast charging without increasing battery degredation. This will be a big benefit to me when it is 120° and I stop for InNOut in Kettlemen City on my way through California...

0ddl0t

02-21-2022, 07:05 PM

I've been considering one for my next car just so I can avoid all Houston gas stations and the crime that goes with them. I'm still concerned though that my car will end up like my phone - obsolete in less than 5 years. At some point I've got to just jump in, but I don't know when that point is.

Obsolescence is a risk, but EVs are simplier in many ways. Look at the first generation Nissan Leaf. Nissan designed a pretty poor battery system and basically abandoned customers once out of warranty, but tuners in the aftermarket have filled the void and figured out how to install the newer better batteries in the old models. These cars cost like $40k new after rebates and initially had 70 miles of range. After the 8 year battery warranty expires, Leafs were selling used for ~$5000 with around 30 miles of range. Replacing the battery from Nissan cost ~$6000 and would maybe get you back to 70 miles. But in the aftermarket you can spend $10k to get a battery with 220 miles of range.

Don't get me wrong, that's a very large cost every ~8-10 years, but remember the rest of the car is virtually maintenance free (and pretty solidly build). Tires, washer fluid, and wiper blades basically. And electricity, even off the grid during peak hours, still costs less than gasoline. So the total operating cost per mile still ends up being about the same or cheaper depending on how much you drive.

4RNR

02-21-2022, 09:27 PM

Don't get me wrong, that's a very large cost every ~8-10 years, but remember the rest of the car is virtually maintenance free (and pretty solidly build). Tires, washer fluid, and wiper blades basically. And electricity, even off the grid during peak hours, still costs less than gasoline. So the total operating cost per mile still ends up being about the same or cheaper depending on how much you drive.

While "fuel" costs are more with gas, I've never spent that much money on maintenance on any car. I would say I've never spent over $1500 on any car and I only buy used and drive them for years and hundreds of thousands of miles.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

gringop

02-22-2022, 12:58 AM

I was searching for info on range and charging time, when I noticed an article that said something about companies racing to do something. And I wondered when some car company would field a race car for any established racing venue more than a 1/4 mile drag race.

World RX Rallycross has had some demo electric cars for quite a few years. When I used to watch it regularly years ago, the electric cars had way more torque than the 700 HP gas cars but were heavier. Rallycross is usually limited to 6 laps or less so batt endurance is not a factor.

I stopped watching it a few years back when FIA put the full races behind a paywall. The vid below has some highlights from a 2021 race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fa-NuaUXaFY

Gringop

Bucky

02-22-2022, 06:50 AM

For the green factor, no. Short of recharging by solar or wind, who's kidding who?

For the performance factor, hell yeah. There's something to be said for making torque at zero RPM.

That’s where I’m at. Probably the best gas powered car for launching / stop lighting right now is a 911 Turbo S. A Tesla plaid will pull it at half the cost. (But twice the ugly ;) )

I had a garage built last year, and it is wired for a charging unit.

As a car guy, I have more than one car, so an EV would make sense, as I’d still have a gas car for any long range trips.

I also hate going to the gas station, just cause it’s usually not good timing when I need to fill up.

So I’m open to givin’ up one of “mah vee eight”, even though it’s kind of cool having a 6.2 trifecta. :D

farscott

02-22-2022, 07:56 AM

We are a two-vehicle household and our next vehicle will be an EV. This vehicle will replace my wife's 2017 Mustang GT Premium. That vehicle has a range of 300 miles while using 93 octane lead-free gas so an EV with that range will work. The other vehicle has a range of 500 miles and runs on 87 octane; it is the road trip vehicle if we are not staying local. We have three basic drivers for choosing an EV.

1) Performance. We want this to be a fun vehicle. With the torque and low center of gravity, an EV is a blast to drive.

2) Ease of charging. We are putting solar panels on our home (also considering a battery to act as an uninterruptible power supply) to lower our grid power usage and electric bill, part of which is going to be the EV. Charging at home should be less costly than in public and also more convenient.

3) Reliability and maintenance. The electric drivetrain requires less maintenance (no oil changes, no transmissions and their fluids, no coolant changes) and higher reliability. This one gets lost in the noise, but the drivetrain of an EV is much simpler than a modern ICE and transmission or transaxle. It should be more reliable over a decade of usage.

peterb

02-22-2022, 08:19 AM

I find this interesting because I think powers will try to us force into EVs.

I was searching for info on range and charging time, when I noticed an article that said something about companies racing to do something. And I wondered when some car company would field a race car for any established racing venue more than a 1/4 mile drag race.

The Isle of Man TT Zero was seeing some impressive electric motorcycle performance: https://electrek.co/2019/06/07/electric-motorcycle-records-brutal-isle-of-man-tt-zero-race/

peterb

02-22-2022, 08:32 AM

If Honda would offer an electric GROM it would be awesome.

These look fun…. https://ridecake.com/en/products/bikes/

The last time I was in China electric scooters were everywhere. From what I could tell, batteries were standard lead-acid but that market is all about low cost.

Honda and Vespa both have high-end scooters.
https://www.vespa.com/en_EN/models/elettrica/elettrica-70-kmh-3-6-kw-electric-motorcycle/
https://www.e-scooter.co/honda-pcx-electric/

My wife loves her e-bike. Given how quickly those are progressing, along with scooters & motorcycles, I think we’re going to see a full spectrum of practical electric vehicles in a few years.

peterb

02-22-2022, 08:40 AM

For the green factor, no. Short of recharging by solar or wind, who's kidding who?

From an emissions standpoint, it’s a lot easier to control one stationary source than thousands of mobile sources. Moving to electric vehicles also reduces the concentration of street-level emissions in urban areas.

BehindBlueI's

02-22-2022, 08:44 AM

Do they make batteries for home solar energy storage?

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

Navin Johnson

02-22-2022, 10:18 AM

Plug in hybrids are really the best option (if one wants electric) with current infrastructure and or only want or can afford one vehicle. Most are good for 30-40 miles and covers most commuter trips.

(The problem with plug in hybrids is no one plugs them in thus why Europe is likely to ban them)

I would plug it in and run it in conjunction with the ice motor for more power (defeats the purpose)

Regular hybrids are really the best tech. right now.

Oh yea. Performance. Many people are drawn to or use it as an excuse to buy something (Knock your self out). 0-60 pulling onto the highway is just masturbation. Buy a performance off road vehicle and do the real thing. (Did bikes and sleds off road for years...cars on the street are pretty boring)

rob_s

02-22-2022, 10:33 AM

The last time I was in China electric scooters were everywhere. From what I could tell, batteries were standard lead-acid but that market is all about low cost.

every major US city (and Oslo, the only non-US city I've been to in the last... ever) I've been to in the last 5 years has had tons of electric scooters everywhere. Lime, Bird, etc. Much to the annoyance of many of the people that live in those areas for a variety of reasons (many understandable).

My wife and I bought our own Segway-branded e-scooters and have had a blast with them all over the country. We keep them in our Class B RV when we go on trips and it's a perfect combo (tiny camper, tiny scooters).

02-22-2022, 10:34 AM

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

I just went and did the online estimate for whole house. Took my breath away.

peterb

02-22-2022, 10:37 AM

every major US city (and Oslo, the only non-US city I've been to in the last... ever) I've been to in the last 5 years has had tons of electric scooters everywhere. Lime, Bird, etc. Much to the annoyance of many of the people that live in those areas for a variety of reasons (many understandable).

My wife and I bought our own Segway-branded e-scooters and have had a blast with them all over the country. We keep them in our Class B RV when we go on trips and it's a perfect combo (tiny camper, tiny scooters).

The ones I saw in China were all sit-on scooters. Common to see them with two people on board, not unusual to see whole families on one.

Gotta keep remembering that “scooter” can mean very different types of vehicles. :-)

BehindBlueI's

02-22-2022, 10:46 AM

I just went and did the online estimate for whole house. Took my breath away.

I haven't looked at them for a couple years, but I think it was $10k when I was wondering if it was worth it vs a backup generator for power outages.

rob_s

02-22-2022, 10:49 AM

some random thoughts that come to mind based on the replies so far...

1) "maintenance"
this is something I hadn't really given much thought to as a "pro". The long-term cost of oil changes and such may not be very high, but the annoyance factor and opportunity cost is through the roof for me personally. I abhor taking the car in. Such a nightmare between incompetents, having to deal with the general public, etc. Christ I'd almost buy an EV for this alone.

2) Performance
This is what made the switch for me from being a detractor to an interested party. I've been a vee-ate guy my whole life (except for one dallience with a Tacoma) but you can't argue with the numbers. particularly from a $:speed perspective.

3) "Cost"
I don't see this being a market for the "buy a ten year old car for $10k and drive it for ten years" crowd for a long long time. But I also don't think that crowd is the norm anymore. it feels like everyone I know is buying a new car every couple of years anymore, so at that point who cares if the car holds up beyond that? (besides the various pollution and other environmental concerns with disposing of various parts).

4) Charging
the game changer here for me again comes in the form of solar if it's available. and as it becomes more efficient. I love the idea of being able to plug my car into the sun in my own yard for "free". When we were in Norway we saw a ton of people that just stopped at local gas stations, got a sandwich, and sat around while their car changed up a bit. Of course, that's a beautiful and clean Norway gas station on the side of a mountain with amazing views and nice people everywhere, not a US gas station in an urban area that looks like hell is surrounded by shit and danger and which serves food that you shouldn't feed even to your dog. Or your ex wife.

5) Innovation
For me, simply making an existing vehicle electric is pretty boring. Granted, making it an existing vehicle that's also faster and means I don't have to take it in for oil changes with the "service manager" starts to gain appeal. But things like Rivian and Canoo are what really start to get me interested. A frunk is cool and all, but that's not terribly innovative. It's just using the void for something of questionable utility (I see people trying to figure out how to get things in there when parked head-in from time to time).

rob_s

02-22-2022, 10:52 AM

The ones I saw in China were all sit-on scooters. Common to see them with two people on board, not unusual to see whole families on one.

Gotta keep remembering that “scooter” can mean very different types of vehicles. :-)

ah, I see what you mean now.

I think those kinds of "scooters" are only going to gain traction in countries where the gas-powered versions already had some acceptance. Various Asian countries all seem pretty scooter-based already but I don't know that Americans are ready for that kind of stigma, haha.

rob_s

02-22-2022, 11:00 AM

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

I just went and did the online estimate for whole house. Took my breath away.

I haven't looked at them for a couple years, but I think it was $10k when I was wondering if it was worth it vs a backup generator for power outages.

the pricing didn't really bother me too much. Thinking (idealistically perhaps) in terms of saving $30k on a new metal roof for my house, not paying another $400/month utility bill ($48k over ten years, presuming no more rate hikes), no need to add a $10k generator/fuel system to the house, getting "free" gas for an EV...

+$120k "total"
- $30k roof
- $50k power bill
- $10k gas generator
$30k balance

this is always a concern for me though, when a market requires tax credits to even get to "take my breath away" status vs. "go f yourself" status.

84803

MickAK

02-22-2022, 11:00 AM

https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

No longer available individually, currently only available with installation of a Tesla solar roof.

That said a number of people have made their own powerwalls out of old/wrecked Tesla banks. I think that's a bit of a grey area home insurance wise but in a big solar market like CA it probably wouldn't be that hard to find someone to certify it.

Depending on space limitation there's any number of ways to customize 18650 cells with protection circuits and it's fairly modular. You just don't want to have your house burn down and find out some of the materials you got such a great deal on aren't actually listed and so sorry, etc.

rob_s

02-22-2022, 11:13 AM

No longer available individually, currently only available with installation of a Tesla solar roof.

That said a number of people have made their own powerwalls out of old/wrecked Tesla banks. I think that's a bit of a grey area home insurance wise but in a big solar market like CA it probably wouldn't be that hard to find someone to certify it.

Depending on space limitation there's any number of ways to customize 18650 cells with protection circuits and it's fairly modular. You just don't want to have your house burn down and find out some of the materials you got such a great deal on aren't actually listed and so sorry, etc.

We stayed at an AirBnB in Joshua Tree... IDK over 5 years ago. That house had one of those big giant solar panels that would wake up in the morning and track the sun across the sky all day, then "sleep" face down at night and start up again the next day. Pretty cool. Anywho, when we got there it was having some sort of issue so the Owner had to come over while we were there and get into the system and figure out what was wrong. IIRC it was that the batteries (basically a shitload of car batteries) were low on water so she had to scurry around filling them and tinkering with things (I was well into my vacation beverages by this point, so memory is a bit hazy).

My other recollection, however, is that this was all housed in some detached shed, which seemed prudent to me then and if I was hacking together a bunch of junkyard parts for my budget power wall I'd think I'd want to follow that same example...

02-22-2022, 11:18 AM

I haven't looked at them for a couple years, but I think it was $10k when I was wondering if it was worth it vs a backup generator for power outages.

My online estimate added a zero to that for whole house solar. A LP gas whole house Generac generator is $10k.

MickAK

02-22-2022, 11:21 AM

We stayed at an AirBnB in Joshua Tree... IDK over 5 years ago. That house had one of those big giant solar panels that would wake up in the morning and track the sun across the sky all day, then "sleep" face down at night and start up again the next day. Pretty cool. Anywho, when we got there it was having some sort of issue so the Owner had to come over while we were there and get into the system and figure out what was wrong. IIRC it was that the batteries (basically a shitload of car batteries) were low on water so she had to scurry around filling them and tinkering with things (I was well into my vacation beverages by this point, so memory is a bit hazy).

My other recollection, however, is that this was all housed in some detached shed, which seemed prudent to me then and if I was hacking together a bunch of junkyard parts for my budget power wall I'd think I'd want to follow that same example...

In a household storage bank application with the right protection circuits 18650 cells are pretty dang bulletproof. Unless they catch a, well, bullet. Then it's big exciting fire time. I thought about just lining the exterior walls with them so they explode outwards if someone shoots at my house but insurance companies are just no fun at all.

BehindBlueI's

02-22-2022, 11:24 AM

My online estimate added a zero to that for whole house solar. A LP gas whole house Generac generator is $10k.

When I did the quote, it was *just* for the batteries. Sort of an alternate to a generator for power outages, since anything here is very likely to be resolved within a week. I didn't realize it wasn't a standalone option any longer until MickAK said so.

randyho

02-22-2022, 05:45 PM

Chemsoldier

02-23-2022, 07:34 AM

Chemsoldier

02-23-2022, 07:35 AM

Deleted

Bio

02-23-2022, 01:32 PM

When I did the quote, it was *just* for the batteries. Sort of an alternate to a generator for power outages, since anything here is very likely to be resolved within a week. I didn't realize it wasn't a standalone option any longer until MickAK said so.

It likely depends a lot on how much you want your emergency power to do. You can get a solar power pack that will power some appliances for a little while, but might not run your AC or heat your whole house. Those would be a lot cheaper than getting a big home battery, but are obviously more limited.

0ddl0t

02-23-2022, 04:37 PM

Can the Tesla powerwall run a microwave these days? I seem to recall the early ones couldn't handle very high loads without piggybacking a bunch together.

GJM

02-23-2022, 09:37 PM

JCN

02-24-2022, 12:20 AM

I have demoed a Tesla 3 and Y, and you get the feeling that it is basically a tablet display sitting on a pile of batteries, with the rest of the vehicle an afterthought. Driving a Taycan today, it feels like a Porsche that happens to be powered by batteries.

That is 100% accurate.

My wife has a P100D and she can’t wait until she can move to a Taycan for the reasons you said. She has had a 13 Cayenne Diesel, 14 Cayman S and currently her weekend car is an 18 GT3.

I had a deposit down for a large battery Taycan for her when they first came out but I withdrew when they called it the “Turbo” which was just insulting to call an electric car that. It felt like some douchey marketing guy said “stupid Americans will buy anything with “turbo” slapped on it” so I just couldn’t do it.

BehindBlueI's

02-24-2022, 07:39 AM

I have demoed a Tesla 3 and Y, and you get the feeling that it is basically a tablet display sitting on a pile of batteries, with the rest of the vehicle an afterthought.

I've repeatedly argued that Tesla isn't a car company, it's a battery company using cars as a test bed/proof of concept.

Bucky

02-24-2022, 09:15 AM

I have demoed a Tesla 3 and Y, and you get the feeling that it is basically a tablet display sitting on a pile of batteries, with the rest of the vehicle an afterthought. Driving a Taycan today, it feels like a Porsche that happens to be powered by batteries.

I really should consider a Taycan.

That is 100% accurate.

My wife has a P100D and she can’t wait until she can move to a Taycan for the reasons you said. She has had a 13 Cayenne Diesel, 14 Cayman S and currently her weekend car is an 18 GT3.

I had a deposit down for a large battery Taycan for her when they first came out but I withdrew when they called it the “Turbo” which was just insulting to call an electric car that. It felt like some douchey marketing guy said “stupid Americans will buy anything with “turbo” slapped on it” so I just couldn’t do it.

Yeah, hard to understand the meaning of "Turbo" when it comes to Porsche. Like the 911, non GT models. They're all turbocharged, just Turbo models have more HP. I guess they're more Turbo-y. ;)

rob_s

02-24-2022, 09:18 AM

I have demoed a Tesla 3 and Y, and you get the feeling that it is basically a tablet display sitting on a pile of batteries, with the rest of the vehicle an afterthought.

Curious to hear more details in this opinion.

I found the streamlined interior without a lot of falderal to be rather refreshing, but I haven’t lived with one.

Now that Hertz is renting them I may try to get one on a future trip if the charging situation is favorable.

rob_s

03-03-2022, 06:01 AM

Well, this isn’t good.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39299829/rivian-r1t-r1s-price-hikes/

The company is jacking up prices for the quad-motor variant (the only one initially offered) by $6000. And buyers who want that version no longer can get it with the Standard battery pack and so must upgrade to the Large battery pack for another $6000.

I read elsewhere that in some instances the “jump” can go as much as $25k if you go from the lowest trim to the quad mother, big battery, which you have to do if you want to have any hope of getting a truck before 2024.

Bio

03-03-2022, 07:37 AM

Crazy Dane

03-03-2022, 08:58 AM

It will definitely be interesting to see the direction electric vehicles take in the next 30 years. I'm pretty sure accessible charging stations will keep popping up and more affordable EVs will keep coming to market.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

The city I work in has installed some "accessible" charging stations. We have 2 in our area that we went out and done some training on. The big one, 10 chargers, is in an outlet mall parking lot. It is right at 400 yards to the corner of the mall and 300 to Waffelhouse and a McDonalds. The other with 4 is in a vacant lot that we don't consider safe even in the daytime. This one is not going to last as it has been vandalized multiple times. They need start building truck stop style charging stations with a nice restaurant, clean facilities and a place to hang while your EV is charging.

The lack of range is also an issue. To get to the beach from where I'm at you would have to stop and recharge before you get there. The stop at a hotel and recharge overnight plan defeats getting away on a 4-day break.

I'm still interested in an EV but they got a long way to go before they become more than a commuter ride.

BehindBlueI's

03-03-2022, 09:22 AM

They need start building truck stop style charging stations with a nice restaurant, clean facilities and a place to hang while your EV is charging.

I read where BP is doing that in London.

rob_s

03-03-2022, 10:17 AM

They need start building truck stop style charging stations with a nice restaurant, clean facilities and a place to hang while your EV is charging.

I read where BP is doing that in London.

Norway too. Of course, it helps that it's Norway and not Detroit, or Sheboygan, or Idaho, or Iowa, or Orlando, or Miami, or LA... For many, may reasons.

Jim Watson

03-03-2022, 11:44 AM

rob_s

03-03-2022, 11:47 AM

Also, Norway has abundant hydroelectric power, making them one of the few places to use electrolytic hydrogen instead of steam reforming natural gas for things like ammonia manufacture. Also, production of heavy water is an electrolytic process. Which is why Germany invaded Norway.

the irony that, at least for the last several decades, they are paying for all of this environmentalism with oil and gas exports is hilarious to me.

BJXDS

03-03-2022, 05:39 PM

There are some positive aspects to EV’s in certain instances. Remind me again why we want the god Electric companies to replace BiG Evil Oil??

rob_s

03-05-2022, 09:14 AM

Looks like no 2022 for me. Put my reservation in 7/19 fwiw

85516

TGS

05-11-2022, 11:45 AM

Ford Lighting development team's motto:

"Yo dawg, I heard you like charging ports, so I put some charging ports inside your charging ports with your charging ports".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bq5EwFRab6Q

mmc45414

05-11-2022, 02:17 PM

Car & Driver had a long-term Model 3 that just concluded their 40,000mi test (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30209598/2019-tesla-model-3-reliability-maintenance/). They will not give them loaners so they have to purchase.

We ordered a long-term Tesla Model 3 for one primary reason: to be able to report on using Tesla's Full Self-Driving software over time. Well, the joke's on us, because after we spent $6000 on that option (the price is now double that) in 2019, our car came and went without ever getting it. Paying for an option we didn't receive is definitely a first, one of many when it came to the Model 3. Had we instead invested that money in Tesla stock, we could've cashed out with as much as $150,000.

Supercruise

05-13-2022, 11:30 AM

In spring 2021, I bought a used 2018 Nissan leaf with 11,000 miles on it. Since then, I've put about 5,000 miles on it and am very happy with it as a city commuter car. Our other car is a BMW X1 that drinks premium fuel, and the leaf is literally 10x cheaper to operate even before looking at maintenance (the leaf is about $0.03/mile vs $0.18/mile for the BMW). The lack of a gas tank in the leaf also gives it quite a bit more rear cargo room which makes getting strollers and kid stuff in and out of it much easier. It has a smaller battery pack so max range is only 150 miles, but considering my daily commute is about 10 miles round trip, it fits my needs perfectly. It surprised me on the first test drive with its low speed acceleration as well; having full torque at 0rpm is super sweet. It handles freeway driving decently, and my model is equipped with the radar cruise and lane following which work well.

I have a coworker who purchased a Tesla model Y and likes it, but did have initial quality control problems with it (paint defect and interior paneling rattling) that took a bit to get corrected. I interned for a company that supplied stamped and welded parts for the model X, S, and 3 lines, and after working with engineers at Tesla and visiting, I would not purchase a vehicle from them.

mtnbkr

05-13-2022, 11:37 AM

Bucky

05-27-2022, 03:47 AM

mmc45414

05-27-2022, 08:15 AM

I am starting to think there could be missed opportunity here, how many people have a third car that is sporty, but doesn't go on road trips and doesn't need to be practical. Thinking a Miata that could sit in the garage with the top down, plugged in and waiting, that could go ~150mi and 0-60 in ~3.5 or so...

UNK

05-27-2022, 01:59 PM

And where do they say the hydrogen is to come from?

Self generated maybe. The retired cop who was killed in the recent grocery store mass shooting. I saw a video where he was performing a series of test for the patent examiners. Ive also seen a video of a small generator running a similar type setup. I dont have any details to share or places to go look I would think a search should provide some info.
I believe the generator video may have been an advertisement for a kit or maybe instructions.

Lester Polfus

05-27-2022, 08:47 PM

I’m seriously revisiting the electric vehicle the last couple days. Need to consider a new daily driver. The thought of not only visiting the gas station, no oil changes, or hoses or belts or radiator fluid, etc. many don’t have transmissions to worry about.

My plan is to hopefully never visit a public charging station. Any trip more that 200 miles round trip would be done by a gas powered car.

Winner, winner Chicken Dinner.

We'll have an F150 for the foreseeable future, but it's a matter of "when" and not "if" we replace the 2015 Ford Edge Transportation Appliance with either a PHEV or EV, for all the reasons you listed above.

rob_s

06-16-2022, 11:27 AM

https://youtu.be/dH1NpjxhkdQ

Bucky

11-07-2022, 08:11 AM

That’s where I’m at. Probably the best gas powered car for launching / stop lighting right now is a 911 Turbo S. A Tesla plaid will pull it at half the cost. (But twice the ugly ;) )

I had a garage built last year, and it is wired for a charging unit.

As a car guy, I have more than one car, so an EV would make sense, as I’d still have a gas car for any long range trips.

I also hate going to the gas station, just cause it’s usually not good timing when I need to fill up.

So I’m open to givin’ up one of “mah vee eight”, even though it’s kind of cool having a 6.2 trifecta. :D

So, I’ve been living with a Tesla Model 3 performance for over a month now…. And I fricking LOVE it. I never thought I’d like it as much as I do. I also managed to justify keeping my previous daily driver, a C6 Corvette, as I am now doing Autocross, and it’s a good car for it.

The Model 3 for me is just easy. Every day I get in and the “tank is full”. The one foot driving feature is cool, and will make the brakes last a super long time. The tech is great, once you get used to it. Adaptive cruise control works great, better than the engine powered cars I ve drove that have that feature.

My number one pet peeve, though, no Apple car play. I mean, seriously? There is a method of doing voice text messaging, so that helps alleviate one issue, and the navigation system is great, and you don’t pay for updates. Also, for $99 a year, you get the premium connectivity, which comes with a music app that I’m liking far more than SiriusXM.

I know I’m still in the honeymoon period, but for someone in the right scenario, ie ability to charge at home / backup ICE car, I highly recommend.

rob_s

11-07-2022, 08:55 AM

My number one pet peeve, though, no Apple car play. I mean, seriously?

Wait, whut?

That just seems bizarre.

I installed an aftermarket head unit in our campervan that has wireless CarPlay and I can’t imagine buying a new vehicle without it now.

Bucky

11-07-2022, 09:22 AM

Wait, whut?

That just seems bizarre.

I installed an aftermarket head unit in our campervan that has wireless CarPlay and I can’t imagine buying a new vehicle without it now.

Yeah, it’s a not unnoticeable drawback. Even my C6 has Apple car play, albeit an aftermarket unit.

I have heard rumors, although not sure how reliable, that they are considering adding Apple CarPlay. If they do, you would be able to download it and not have to take your car to a service center.

I did see on YouTube there is a workaround for it, but I don’t wanna go there at this time.

rob_s

02-18-2023, 09:02 AM

2025 Porsche Boxster EV Prototype and Macan EV spied during winter testing

https://apple.news/AwIsHVpbTRmeThR4bBBn9tQ

CraigS

02-19-2023, 08:34 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/hear-electric-dodge-charger-daytonas-exhaust-muscular-sound
How dumb is this? Give it up, E cars are silent, that is just the way it is. They may as well make rocket engine sounds because they would have no more correlation w/ an EV than a big V8 does. IMHO the entire E car thing is a bad joke propagated by people who can't see beyond their nose. When the leading state in pushing EVs has to tell people not to charge their EVs because they don't have enough electricity it should be da-n obvious that moving beyond about a 1% of all cars being EVs isn't going to work out real well.

Crazy Dane

02-19-2023, 09:10 AM

The new Ram that is coming has caught my attention with having a range extender. This will not be a hybrid where the ICE drives the wheels but an on board generator. Im not sure if it will provide direct power to the drive motors or just back to the battery(ies). The range extender addresses the biggest worry and complaint on EVs. There is no real data and limited info on the Ram EV for now.
Maybe by the time my eco diesel wears out, they will have the bugs worked out of this.

Ram 1500 EV Will Offer a Range Extender Gas Engine, CEO Confirms (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39038431/ram-1500-ev-truck-range-extender-report/)

Bucky

02-19-2023, 09:32 AM

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/hear-electric-dodge-charger-daytonas-exhaust-muscular-sound
How dumb is this? Give it up, E cars are silent, that is just the way it is.

EV's aren't the only ones guilty of this. There are at least a few manufacturers pumping additional sound through the sound system in their ICE sports cars to make them sound cooler. Keep them natural, and appreciate them for what they are. (Can be applied to things other than car noises as well :p)

Navin Johnson

02-19-2023, 09:32 AM

The current Ram has a 5.7 liter range extender.....

CraigS

02-19-2023, 10:46 AM

EV's aren't the only ones guilty of this. There are at least a few manufacturers pumping additional sound through the sound system in their ICE sports cars to make them sound cooler. Keep them natural, and appreciate them for what they are. (Can be applied to things other than car noises as well :p)
Yep I have seen articles about some of those. A slightly different tack, my wife bought a 2010 Mustang GT because of the sound. We test drove the new at the time Camaro because it also had a new V6 which would have given her nice mpg on her 70 mile commute. But then we drove a Mustang. They had plumbed intake sound into the interior, actual sound through tubes to the firewall and into the inside. She gave it maybe 2/3 gas in 2nd gear, heard that sound, turned to me and said, effe that Camaro, I am buying one of these.

littlejerry

02-19-2023, 02:26 PM

RoyGBiv

02-19-2023, 03:41 PM

Saw my first Rivian pickup this morning.
Looks like Lincoln style cues in pickup form. Meh.

I'm very much not a plug in fan, so I'll leave it at that.

Bucky

02-19-2023, 03:45 PM

It's not just sports cars. The move to turbo 4s and 6s pushed a lot of manufacturers to add fake engine noise. Toyota, Ford, BMW, etc. My Ford Ranger had it before I turned it off.

I thought I heard Porsche did that too? Good to be it can be shut off.

I left the stock exhaust on a Pro Charged Vette. It’s left more that a few folks behind me scratching their heads. :)

littlejerry

02-19-2023, 03:53 PM

I thought I heard Porsche did that too? Good to be it can be shut off.

I left the stock exhaust on a Pro Charged Vette. It’s left more that a few folks behind me scratching their heads. :)

Varying degrees of "can be turned off". My ranger required aftermarket software running off of a laptop and a special OBDII connector to edit factory settings.

The stock fake noise was bad enough that it justified the effort/risk. The stock sound was like a 90s arcade game.

rayrevolver

02-25-2023, 10:48 AM

I took the plunge, sold my F-150 to cover a down payment on a 2020 Model 3 Long Range. Also selling the 2001 Porsche Boxster, which is on consignment.

Overall, I expect to reduce my car bills by $100-200 a month (still owe on the Boxster). As an example, we pay .09 cents for electricity per kWh.

Based on $3.25 per gallon fuel and going 100 miles:
F-150 = $18
Telluride = $13

Tesla will cost $2.61

That doesn't include all the other fees tacked on when I look at my electricity bill. But, I am already paying those fees. I think it averages out to .11 cents per kWh based on my last bill.

If you Supercharge then you are paying what is equivalent to a car with 25mpg. You need to charge at home if you want to save money.

No one talks about tires, but we should. These cars are heavy plus major torque = tires get used up fast. My trucks tires lasted 70,000 miles and cost maybe $600 to replace. The Tesla comes with Michelins that cost $1000 to replace and some folks get 25,000 miles or less. I hope to limp around to 30,000 miles but the acceleration is addictive. I have the need...

So if you add in your tire bill then the long term savings aren't quite as high as everyone tells you. That said, tire companies are starting to release more and more tires made for these EVs. Hopefully they can drive down the cost a little. I am not buying Michelins when they wear out. Hankook and Goodyear have options, or I could roll the dice with a non-EV tire.

The issue with non-EV tires is the rolling resistance. A normal summer tire can take up more than 10% of your efficiency. I will nerd out in this area once my tires start wearing down. Hopefully that happens deep into 2024.

Big picture, the wifes Telluride is the road trip mobile and will haul trash. Any other time I need a truck I will borrow or rent. We shall see how this summer plays out. I am a little worried. If I have trees come down my neighbor takes most of the usable wood, but I still end up with a few trailer fulls that need to get moved out. I swapped my old bosses BMW with my truck when he needed one, so maybe I will do the same with my in-laws.

My kid made travel soccer, plus all this other stuff after school, and the miles are racking up. We plan to use the Tesla for everything and the weekends, so I imagine the miles on the wifes car should come down.

Lots to learn about these EVs and I am 3 weeks into ownership.

Bucky

02-25-2023, 11:48 AM

No one talks about tires, but we should. These cars are heavy plus major torque = tires get used up fast. My trucks tires lasted 70,000 miles and cost maybe $600 to replace. The Tesla comes with Michelins that cost $1000 to replace and some folks get 25,000 miles or less. I hope to limp around to 30,000 miles but the acceleration is addictive. I have the need...

So if you add in your tire bill then the long term savings aren't quite as high as everyone tells you. That said, tire companies are starting to release more and more tires made for these EVs. Hopefully they can drive down the cost a little. I am not buying Michelins when they wear out. Hankook and Goodyear have options, or I could roll the dice with a non-EV tire.

Tires do wear more, but brakes should last longer if you drive right. I’ve taken trips in mine where I never touched the brake pedal. Then there are oil changes, transmission service, usually at 30K. Need to consider that into the savings as well. :)

mmc45414

02-26-2023, 09:46 AM

brakes should last longer if you drive right. I’ve taken trips in mine where I never touched the brake pedal.

Thread Drift:
Obviously regenerative braking is the ultimate solution, but I have been amazed how little brake wear my manual Focus ends up with, over 130k on the originals. It has seen a lot of highway miles, but also either coasts down or has been down shifted (it also has big brakes, it is an ST).

Navin Johnson

02-26-2023, 10:03 AM

Also factored into ownership:

Batteries

Resale (region can have a big effect)

GJM

02-26-2023, 10:07 AM

Something else to factor into the ownership experience is pure performance. I constantly find myself hoping to end up at a traffic light next to some "fast" car.

0ddl0t

02-27-2023, 02:10 AM

States are just starting to implement extra registration fees for EVs, but you should also expect more of that going forward. The typical driver in California pays about $320/year in gas taxes, but the DMV is currently only charging an extra $100 to register an EV.

Once states are done trying to incentivize people to switch away from internal combustion, you can be sure they'll start recouping all of those lost gas taxes. If anything, EVs should pay more anyway (the extra wear they put on their tires also affects roadways).

uechibear

02-27-2023, 09:08 AM

We have a thread on hybrid vehicles (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41137-Hybrid-Vehicles/page4), and ones specific to the Hummer EV (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45118-Hummer-EV), the Mach E (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47251-Ford-electric-Mustang-Mach-E), and the Tesla Truck (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39509-Tesla-Truck) (maybe others, this is what I found with a quick search), and the Truck (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23563-Trucks) and Car (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39701-The-Semi-Unofficial-Pistol-Forum-Car-geek-gearhead-hot-rodder-and-vehicle-thread) threads have had tangents regarding EV, but I thought it might be interesting to consolidate and also talk about where the tech is headed.

For the green factor, no. Short of recharging by solar or wind, who's kidding who?

For the performance factor, hell yeah. There's something to be said for making torque at zero RPM.

I posted a little about the ERay Corvette here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37617-2020-Corvette&p=1449835&viewfull=1#post1449835, but that thread doesn't always see a lot of action, and the new upcoming Performance Hybrid Corvette deserves to be represented here, as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PdGZ6dOSfQ

This is going to be one exciting car!

GJM

02-27-2023, 09:28 AM

AWD!

WSJ on the need for AM radio in EVs.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicles-need-am-radio-former-emergency-officials-argue-9e69e297

Navin Johnson

02-27-2023, 01:03 PM

0ddl0t

02-27-2023, 03:17 PM

The great state of Washington has a pilot program for road taxing cars by mileage. Their goal has been to implement this for the last 20 years. It’s just trying to convince people to put a monitor in their car, despite our extraordinarily progressive tendencies here, for some reason, we don’t trust the government to monitor us

With no real plan to get rid of the gas tax for a long time. Prius’s and EV’s have hurt our overlords ability to buy votes

For ~$200 an unscrupulous person can buy a plug & play piggyback device that filters out 90% of your mileage before it is written to the odometer. Your speedometer & all safety features still work properly.

It is very popular with a certain sect of Eastern European Uber drivers with 12,000 mile/year leases driving 50-100,000 miles/year

https://youtu.be/UOSljkPtFUc

JohnO

02-27-2023, 03:35 PM

For ~$200 an unscrupulous person can buy a plug & play piggyback device that filters out 90% of your mileage before it is written to the odometer. Your speedometer & all safety features still work properly.

It is very popular with a certain sect of Eastern European Uber drivers with 12,000 mile/year leases driving 50-100,000 miles/year

While not exactly the same this might be applicable.

I seen people put non-factory tunes into their vehicle and then have the factory programing restored before dealer/warranty work. In one case I'm familiar with the dealer said the number of miles did not match the number of starts.

My son got bitten by this on his Harley after optimizing due to a new exhaust system. His warranty was voided.

GJM

02-27-2023, 07:18 PM

While not exactly the same this might be applicable.

I seen people put non-factory tunes into their vehicle and then have the factory programing restored before dealer/warranty work. In one case I'm familiar with the dealer said the number of miles did not match the number of starts.

My son got bitten by this on his Harley after optimizing due to a new exhaust system. His warranty was voided.

Not me, but a bunch of people have put tunes on their Sprinter RV vans.

Navin Johnson

02-27-2023, 07:43 PM

Not me, but a bunch of people have put tunes on their Sprinter RV vans.

I had a sprinter that was converted to off-road only by removing the particulate filter when it clogged…..it probably gained 30 or 40 hp a good handful of torque and about a mile and a half to the gallon increase in economy in other words, quite notable performance

rob_s

04-05-2023, 01:32 PM

Not everything the prototype had, but still pretty neat. I think I'd still currently buy an F150 hybrid before I'd buy a full electric truck, but I'm not at all as opposed to the idea of an electric truck as I once was. Full electric, I might still choose the Rivian (even though I'm not entirely sure they'll be in business 5 years from now).

some key points of interest IMO:

Late 2024 availability
350 miles of range (500 miles available)
air suspension
2 motors (one front, one rear) = 654 hp / 620 lbtft
up to 2700 lbs payload
tradesman trim all the way up to new "tungsten"
14,000 lbs towing
10 min L3 charging = 110 miles
independent rear suspension
4.4 second 0-60 claimed (same claim at GM EV trucks)
rear locker (not sure if standard or just an option)
pricing not available yet

https://ramrev.com

https://youtu.be/k0UWI6c3yf0

Navin Johnson

04-05-2023, 02:38 PM

I believe the Ram has a gas generator in the bed or will (Ford will copy)

Ford Powerboost (hybrid) not meant to be towed with too often. A boat or light trailer a few times a year is fine (according to a local fleet friend)

mmc45414

04-06-2023, 11:17 AM

I believe the Ram has a gas generator in the bed or will (Ford will copy)
This would make a lot of sense, IMO. I could drive an electric truck about 340 days a year. A range extender onboard for those other 25 days would be interesting.

Ford Powerboost (hybrid) not meant to be towed with too often. A boat or light trailer a few times a year is fine (according to a local fleet friend)
Not sure why, it is the same powertrain as my 3.5EB, not detuned in any way, plus the added torque of the pancake motor added into the equation. Mine has only 420fp and the PB has 570fb, and my experience has been rather positive, starting with our old Carver. Bringing this thing back up over Jellico from Norris Lake made me a fanboi:
103324

We have since downsized, this one is pretty easy:
103325

I have not ever been towing a heavy racecar trailer every weekend or anything, but this has been the best tow vehicle I have ever had. Trying to switch to a van, but the Powerboost would be very tempting if it were available. Having the electric torque from a stop would be appealing. :cool:

0ddl0t

04-10-2023, 02:55 PM

BYD's new EV goes 0-60 in 2 seconds and not only can it crab walk, it can also jump:
103460

https://electrek.co/2023/04/10/byd-yangwang-u9-ev-0-60-mph-2-seconds-it-can-ollie-jump-supercar/

(jump is at ~1:15)

https://youtu.be/TDG5bDRNkcc

Bucky

04-10-2023, 04:07 PM

BYD's new EV goes 0-60 in 2 seconds and not only can it crab walk, it can also jump
103460

https://electrek.co/2023/04/10/byd-yangwang-u9-ev-0-60-mph-2-seconds-it-can-ollie-jump-supercar/

(jump is at ~1:15)

https://youtu.be/TDG5bDRNkcc

Well, aside from the whole zero to 60 thing, I knew guys in the 80s who had Malibus that would do much of this. :rolleyes:

GJM

01-04-2024, 07:53 AM

Good read:

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-ev-sales-prices-problem-transportation-2024-1

DC_P

01-04-2024, 08:20 AM

Good read:

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-ev-sales-prices-problem-transportation-2024-1

This article points out a lot of things that seemed obvious to me but somehow none of the EV champions ever considered. Especially the larger car thing - everybody claims they want cleaner cars but they will only buy SUVs, which are the least efficient passenger cars imaginable.

Why isn't more emphasis being put on renewable and less polluting fuels for combustion engines? I don't know anything about the science involved, but it seems like a much more feasible solution.

mtnbkr

01-04-2024, 08:36 AM

Good read:

https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-ev-sales-prices-problem-transportation-2024-1

Ok article but makes the same mistakes and assumptions that many similar ones make.
It compares a small European country, where trips are typically shorter and which has a decent public transportation infrastructure to the entire US where we are much more diverse in our driving habits and have very little public transportation infrastructure outside large cities.

It also insinuates US drivers should have 2 vehicles; an EV for short trips and a hybrid or ICE for longer trips. That's assuming people have the income and space for specific purpose vehicles. Most have to make do with a single vehicle for all needs, so they're going to get the larger one with greater range. An EV for "in town" use just isn't budget-friendly for most.

The bottom line is range and charging infrastructure must improve for widespread EV adoption to take place. In places like NoVA, we're nearly there, but if you get out to more rural parts of this state, the situation changes.

Aging Wheels on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/@agingwheels) has some good videos about EV technology and charging challenges during roadtrips. One of my takeaways is that even though charging stations are becoming more commonplace, the quality of those stations varies wildly and you may not be able to get a full charge in a reasonable amount of time, making long distance trips tedious.

Chris

RoyGBiv

01-04-2024, 08:44 AM

Why isn't more emphasis being put on renewable and less polluting fuels for combustion engines? I don't know anything about the science involved, but it seems like a much more feasible solution.

Too many people in positions of power are in on the money and influence grift.
Too many idiot, power-hungry pundits are in on the money and social score grift.

I've been a Hydrogen fan since college (mid 80's)... I still think fuel cells are the future and agree with the above quote. Instead of subsidizing EV's (picking winners), the government should be funding foundational research in Hydrogen production (breeder reactors and co-gen), geothermal and improving solar conversion efficiencies and production methods (all of the above approach).

You have to be an absolute Ostrich not to see that even in Texas, where "green" sources account for only 22% of electricity generation, the highest percentage in the US (https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=TX), the electrons that power your EV come primarily from fossil fuels. Every legislator and pundit that rages about how "clean" EV's are deserves a dick punch from the Wizard of Oz.

Don't get me started on accounting for the energy required to mine for Lithium and Rare Earth elements (a market controlled by China currently) or the pollution and energy required for smelting and recycling Lead, or having to wait around for 45 minutes while your EV charges on a road trip.

<facepalm>

mmc45414

01-04-2024, 09:02 AM

This article points out a lot of things that seemed obvious to me but somehow none of the EV champions ever considered. Especially the larger car thing - everybody claims they want cleaner cars but they will only buy SUVs, which are the least efficient passenger cars imaginable.

I think in general people tend to have very strong feelings about what other people should do. Classic example is a good friend who has been telling me "You should get a Tesla" over a time period in which he has leased or purchased about five ICE cars, including most recently when an EV would have been a realistically available alternative. And people always villainize SUVs, but mini vans have not been small for a long time, and a current Odyssey weighs more than a Pilot, and they are both probably only 1k lighter than an F-150.

The article made many good points, but I liked this one:

113518

IMO, EVs have a lot of good opportunities, but rip-up-and-replace is just not realistic. And they should be simple and cheap and available for people that need basic transportation, but then those people do not live in single family dwellings with (at least) 200 amp service.

Meanwhile I would like to have a $30k Miata that would accelerate like a C8 that I would probably never drive farther than 200mi a day anyway. :cool:

mmc45414

01-04-2024, 09:10 AM

Ok article but makes the same mistakes and assumptions that many similar ones make.
It compares a small European country, where trips are typically shorter and which has a decent public transportation infrastructure to the entire US where we are much more diverse in our driving habits and have very little public transportation infrastructure outside large cities.
I meant to mention that. Norway has less than half as many people as Ohio, so 20% of the drivers plugging in is probably manageable. I work for a company based in Stockholm, and the big boss has a Tesla, and their electric rates have gone up. I heard he was spending ~$1,500mo USD for his overall electric bill (not sure he heats with it).

Too many idiot, power-hungry pundits are in on the money and social score grift.

You have to be an absolute Ostrich not to see that even in Texas, where "green" sources account for only 22% of electricity generation, the highest percentage in the US (https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.php?sid=TX), the electrons that power your EV come primarily from fossil fuels. Every legislator and pundit that rages about how "clean" EV's are deserves a dick punch from the Wizard of Oz.
But when you trade your tailpipe for a smokestack you get to brag about it at parties...

uechibear

01-04-2024, 09:27 AM

I think in general people tend to have very strong feelings about what other people should do. <snip>

Meanwhile I would like to have a $30k Miata that would accelerate like a C8 that I would probably never drive farther than 200mi a day anyway. :cool:

Many Corvette enthusiasts on the Corvette forums are VERY strongly opposed to the ERay even though it's a "Performance Hybrid" that you can't even plug in. It's engineered for very fast acceleration (quicker than the Z06, which is basically a street-legal race car) — not designed to save gas, and they still don't like it because of the "EV stigma" and the fact that it's technically a hybrid.

A "$30k Miata that would accelerate like a C8" would be awesome, but what you're getting with a C8 is a $70k Corvette that's quicker than most European exotics that cost 3+ times more.

mmc45414

01-04-2024, 09:58 AM

Many Corvette enthusiasts on the Corvette forums are VERY strongly opposed to the ERay even though it's a "Performance Hybrid" that you can't even plug in. It's engineered for very fast acceleration (quicker than the Z06, which is basically a street-legal race car) — not designed to save gas, and they still don't like it because of the "EV stigma" and the fact that it's technically a hybrid.
I think the stigma comes from the government mandates.
I have not read up on the ERay, but I liked the idea of the NSX being hybrid in that the front drivetrain being electric and capable of torque vectoring, bringing additional functionality that would be not so simple with an ICE AWD setup.

A "$30k Miata that would accelerate like a C8" would be awesome, but what you're getting with a C8 is a $70k Corvette that's quicker than most European exotics that cost 3+ times more.
I should have just said 2.5sec, rather than draw the comparison to the Corvette. I just think EVs should be less expensive because they are simple, not more expensive as they are currently marketed to the exotic and luxury segments. And I think most sporty cars are driven for fun on nice days on local trips or excursions. I have done many long trips in my Focus ST (business and pleasure) but my life has evolved and not so much anymore. So if I could replace it with something that was funner and cheaper that recharged in the garage it would be sitting in anyway, that would be an interesting alternative.

OTOH if you mandate that I need to replace my F-150 that will tow my boat over 300mi and "recharge" in the time it takes to pee with something that will only go ~100mi and I need to drop the trailer and spend 40-60min twice just to get back from the lake, imma gonna say My Cold Dead Hands!! :cool:

RoyGBiv

01-04-2024, 10:24 AM

But when you trade your tailpipe for a smokestack you get to brag about it at parties...

Not at any party that would invite me.... lol..

Good friend currently drives a hybrid. I like hybrids just fine. It's plug-ins that make me facepalm.
Good friend was over for dinner before Christmas and starts talking about buying a Lucid (https://lucidmotors.com/offers). My wife gave him shit before I could even gather my thoughts.
We're all for "Clean", but we're not for false gods.

Malamute

01-04-2024, 10:28 AM

01-04-2024, 11:11 AM

I did a search, Jeep didnt show in this thread.

Was watching this the other day, at about minute 29:00 they were looking at 2 EVs, one may be a custom hybrid (wasnt paying close attention), the second looks like a Jeep concept rig that may be available soon. No idea of the range, but it looks like its built to be functional on the Moab trails and other offroad stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQf-zdm6pl0

Matt is always running out of gas, so I wonder how an EV would work for him. :)

I looked at the range for Subaru or Toyota, which is what we drive. Range is around 225 miles. Yesterday I drove 170 miles, which is not a normal day, but not unusual. EV won't work for me for an every day driver. I like to keep my gas tank at least half full and top off at half.

Malamute

01-04-2024, 11:58 AM

Matt is always running out of gas, so I wonder how an EV would work for him. :)

I looked at the range for Subaru or Toyota, which is what we drive. Range is around 225 miles. Yesterday I drove 170 miles, which is not a normal day, but not unusual. EV won't work for me for an every day driver. I like to keep my gas tank at least half full and top off at half.

I dont think theyre up to par for the sort of thing he does, especially if they have to go far for a recovery but it seems they are making advancements as time goes on in general. It was just interesting seeing Jeep getting in the game as far as they are, as well as I believe the custom hybrid one on the older body/chassis.

It seems Matt is getting better about the gas thing, theyve been pretty merciless in razzing him about it. He takes it well though.

Navin Johnson

01-04-2024, 02:24 PM

At least one local Ford dealer purchased the required superchargers from Ford) it’s about 600,000 worth of equipment sitting in the garage because in the great state of Washington in the fine city of Seattle, we don’t have the grid infrastructure for them to work. Likely several years before they’ll be viable.

TGS

01-04-2024, 02:50 PM

Not at any party that would invite me.... lol..

Good friend currently drives a hybrid. I like hybrids just fine. It's plug-ins that make me facepalm.
Good friend was over for dinner before Christmas and starts talking about buying a Lucid (https://lucidmotors.com/offers). My wife gave him shit before I could even gather my thoughts.
We're all for "Clean", but we're not for false gods.

My girlfriend's lease on her 2021 Toyota Venza (midsize hybrid SUV) is up in two weeks. We've taken stock of the market, EVs, gas, hybrid, and have decided to stick with the Venza and buy it from the lease for its residual value.

I don't particularly like the Venza...Id really much prefer an Audi Q5 or Porsche Macan. The infotainment system alone makes me want to set the car on fire, but thankfully I'm somewhat of a luddite that eschews the utility of such systems to begin with. Otherwise, I have a hard time making an argument for anything else when I can drive that thing on a 250mi road trip with excessive, inefficient highway speeds and still get 35mpg...or 37mpg normally, or 42mpg if I take it easy like when driving around town.

It's sort of like a Glock. I just can't find a reason to fault it for everyday use, even if there's something with more sparkle out there. The only thing it excels at is how perfect it is as an A to B daily driver.

rayrevolver

01-04-2024, 04:50 PM

I should have just said 2.5sec, rather than draw the comparison to the Corvette. I just think EVs should be less expensive because they are simple, not more expensive as they are currently marketed to the exotic and luxury segments. And I think most sporty cars are driven for fun on nice days on local trips or excursions. I have done many long trips in my Focus ST (business and pleasure) but my life has evolved and not so much anymore. So if I could replace it with something that was funner and cheaper that recharged in the garage it would be sitting in anyway, that would be an interesting alternative.

On cars.com:
- 2018 Model 3 Performance, 3.5s 0-60, with higher miles for $20k these days.
- 2021 M3P, 2.9s 0-60, $31k with 60k miles. These cars are pretty dang fast.

Direct from Tesla (near DC) is a 2021 Model 3 Performance for $41k with 29k miles on it. Tesla sells used cars for a premium but they come with extra warranty which might be tempting.

So its in the ballpark for ~3s 0 to 60, easily do 250 miles, and $20-31k on cars.com. 2021 is a sweet spot for the Tesla Model 3.

These aren't 4-door BMW M3s but maybe a 4-door BMW 335s... maybe. I don't think the interior is Audi level, which my wife has owned recently. Maybe close to Toyota, they just "look" premium because of the minimalist setup.

So far my 2020 Model 3 LR has been great. My basic warranty is up at the end of the month. If things start going south next month I can document them here.

Problems since Feb 2023 when I bought it:
- Squeaky Control Arms - Replaced under warranty
- Window controller fault - Heading to service tomorrow to address

My car with BBS Turbofan knockoff wheel covers. Yes you either love them or hate them. I wish I bought white ones like a Porsche 962 but these work for now.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52955522222_8ed09d38db_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oFuTPd)

Bucky

01-05-2024, 08:04 AM

On cars.com:
- 2018 Model 3 Performance, 3.5s 0-60, with higher miles for $20k these days.
- 2021 M3P, 2.9s 0-60, $31k with 60k miles. These cars are pretty dang fast.

Direct from Tesla (near DC) is a 2021 Model 3 Performance for $41k with 29k miles on it. Tesla sells used cars for a premium but they come with extra warranty which might be tempting.

So its in the ballpark for ~3s 0 to 60, easily do 250 miles, and $20-31k on cars.com. 2021 is a sweet spot for the Tesla Model 3.

I suspect that the cars really didn’t get that much faster, re 3.5 -> 2.9. I think Tesla changed the measurement from a dead stop to rollout. Not sure if it was because that was what other manufacturers were doing, or it was so they could achieve a sub 2 second 0-60 in the Plaid, or likely both. Real numbers I’ve seen for current M3Ps without rollout are 3.2. When it warms up outside, I’ll take my Racebox out in my 2022 M3P and see what it will do.

As for my experience, just turning 14K and no issues to date. Also, they just put up a Tesla dealership 30 mins from me which is a nice surprise. It was over 1.5 hours to the dealership I picked mine up from.

45dotACP

01-05-2024, 11:03 AM

What's the long term durability like for these EV's?

Like if we're talking about on a scale from "Yugo" to "1995 Toyota Camry"

JRB

01-05-2024, 03:20 PM

What's the long term durability like for these EV's?

Like if we're talking about on a scale from "Yugo" to "1995 Toyota Camry"

If a Yugo was 0 and the 1995 Camry was a 10 on the reliability scale, I'd say the Teslas are a 4 to a 7 depending on the model. Earlier Tesla Roadsters and earlier P-series definitely have teething issues and are almost impossible to repair or support if something goes wrong. So really old stuff is a 4, with most being 6-7's and the Model 3's being solid 7's in most cases.
But I give those numbers with the context that many common and very reliable vehicles are 7 & 8's these days compared to a never-going-to-die neglect-resistant zombie like a 1995 Camry. For example, I'd say most 3.5L Ecoboost F150s are about a 8-8.5 on that scale.

As a brand, IMHO new Teslas seem to last about as well as a new Audi, with Model 3's seeming to last the longest/have the lowest rate of surprise violently expensive repairs. There was definitely a hiccup in QC/QA through COVID era production of Teslas, so get a 2018-2019 production date model or 2022+

But like an Audi, once it's out of warranty coverage it's a matter of when, not if, it has an expensive hiccup of some kind. I think 20-teen era Audis have more $3-6k problems but fewer $20k+ problems than comparable year Teslas out of warranty. Audis also benefit from a fairly robust third-party repair shop network and good parts availability if you want to keep one alive.
If you have problems with a Tesla, it goes to Tesla and there's virtually no source for replacement Tesla parts and very little DIY community or support beyond brake jobs and wheel changes, really.

Also unlike the Audi, if you have a 2015 Tesla and buy a 2024 Tesla, you'll likely be annoyed by the lack of genuine improvement in the interior/infotainment/etc. A car buddy of mine did just that - selling an older Tesla 2014ish P85D for a newer P100 (wasn't a plaid but the model below it) and he wished he'd just kept the older one and paid for some kind of extended warranty & update package from Tesla. But I don't know the specifics of that or if such a thing is available for all older Teslas.

Overall, I think there's a lot of use cases where Teslas make sense for some folks. It doesn't make sense for me yet and I don't see things getting so awful that an EV option will beat my quasi-fleet of paid off 90's/00's shitboxes that I can drive anywhere and easily fix myself for comparably dirt cheap.

Another consideration - I met a guy with a financed Tesla Plaid, and he bemoaned the insurance costs almost matching his car payment.
So on any EV performance models especially, look up insurance cost estimates first and factor that in before buying.

Malamute

01-05-2024, 06:04 PM

Overall, I think there's a lot of use cases where Teslas make sense for some folks. It doesn't make sense for me yet and I don't see things getting so awful that an EV option will beat my quasi-fleet of paid off 90's/00's shitboxes that I can drive anywhere and easily fix myself for comparably dirt cheap.

Another consideration - I met a guy with a financed Tesla Plaid, and he bemoaned the insurance costs almost matching his car payment.
So on any EV performance models especially, look up insurance cost estimates first and factor that in before buying.

Interesting to see how you stated that. Can relate, just never saw it in exactly those descriptive terms.

Insurance can in fact be a killer in some cases.

camel

01-05-2024, 06:21 PM

Interesting to see how you stated that. Can relate, just never saw it in exactly those descriptive terms.

Insurance can in fact be a killer in some cases.

I know in my area. That if your Tesla gets hit it’s pretty much a total loss for anything other than a fender bender. And even that can depending on where it is hit rack up thousands in repairs. People like their 500 dollar deductible. But do not realize what the insurance is going to pay to recoup that.

JRB

01-05-2024, 06:33 PM

I know in my area. That if your Tesla gets hit it’s pretty much a total loss for anything other than a fender bender. And even that can depending on where it is hit rack up thousands in repairs. People like their 500 dollar deductible. But do not realize what the insurance is going to pay to recoup that.

That's everywhere - Teslas basically don't survive any sort of impact or accident at all. If the same hit would do more than leave paint on the bumper of a 1979 Suburban, it's going to total a Tesla every time.
Plus the risk of an 'infinite sparkler' fire after a collision makes firefighters, paramedics, LEOs, and tow truck drivers all very, very nervous.

When Teslas do get repaired, it's always a ton of money because Tesla will not ship repair parts to any shop that isn't a Tesla 'certified' shop. Getting those certs/creds with Tesla is expensive, bodywork and systems repair in those cars is horrendously expensive, and generally there's no 'repairing' it's getting the car straight again and replacing every other piece including wiring. So it's really, really, really expensive.

camel

01-05-2024, 06:58 PM

That's everywhere - Teslas basically don't survive any sort of impact or accident at all. If the same hit would do more than leave paint on the bumper of a 1979 Suburban, it's going to total a Tesla every time.
Plus the risk of an 'infinite sparkler' fire after a collision makes firefighters, paramedics, LEOs, and tow truck drivers all very, very nervous.

When Teslas do get repaired, it's always a ton of money because Tesla will not ship repair parts to any shop that isn't a Tesla 'certified' shop. Getting those certs/creds with Tesla is expensive, bodywork and systems repair in those cars is horrendously expensive, and generally there's no 'repairing' it's getting the car straight again and replacing every other piece including wiring. So it's really, really, really expensive.

I don’t miss being a tow truck driver because of that infinite sparkler possibility. Any electric car or hybrid.

JRB

01-05-2024, 07:03 PM

I don’t miss being a tow truck driver because of that infinite sparkler possibility.

Can't hardly blame you - and that's on top of it already being a tough and risky job.

I also know lots of tow companies won't tow a collision damaged EV at all unless it's for a city/PD contract callout, or they will add an exorbitant upcharge for any collision damaged EV. Given the risks involved for the driver and the truck I can't blame them.

camel

01-05-2024, 07:21 PM

Can't hardly blame you - and that's on top of it already being a tough and risky job.

I also know lots of tow companies won't tow a collision damaged EV at all unless it's for a city/PD contract callout, or they will add an exorbitant upcharge for any collision damaged EV. Given the risks involved for the driver and the truck I can't blame them.

Yea. Pretty much. When you take a look at what a tow truck costs. Plus the person. You better pay me if I was still doing that.

Navin Johnson

01-05-2024, 09:15 PM

Love the Audi comparison. I service a number of car dealerships for some products and no one at an Audi dealership will own an Audi that is out of warranty.

And for that matter, most Ford dealers will tell you 5.0 in a F150 (not officially of course)

0ddl0t

01-06-2024, 08:48 PM

What's the long term durability like for these EV's?

Like if we're talking about on a scale from "Yugo" to "1995 Toyota Camry"

It varies dramatically from make to make and even from model or year of the same make, but as a whole EVs are still less reliable than average (https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/). Probably more like a 1995 Chevy Corsica than Camry or Yugo...

If you can get by with 75 miles of range and don't mind glacial recharge times, the 2012-2014 Toyota Rav4 EV was very reliable*, but they only made ~2500 and afaik all were sold in California. *Tesla supplied motors did have a tendency to whine as they aged and were often replaced under warranty even though they worked fine. Tesla had the same whine in the model S and eventually fixed the issue.

Toyota's new BZ4x had serious problems with its rollout (wheels falling off is never good), but I expect it to be decent long term.

I'd avoid the 2011-2012 Leaf unless you are willing to drop $10k to upgrade/rebuild to newer/larger batteries. Even then, I wouldn't recommend it if you live in a hot climate. 2013+ were a bit more heat tolerant. Range might be as little as 30 miles on original batteries but over 150-200 miles on new/upgraded batteries. 2018+ had 150-200+ miles of range and have finally achieved average car reliability.

The Mitsubishi i-miev is disposable - avoid unless you want a largely unsupported project.

GM's EVs (bolt, hummer) are still problematic.

Ford's lightning is better, but still less reliable than the average truck. The Mach-E has been about as reliable as the average domestic suv.

Tesla ranges from a little below average to a fair bit above average depending on the model and year. I doubt any other EV maker has as many 200,000+ mile EVs on the road today, but build quality can be spotty...

Rivian's reliability has been disappointing as are their collision repair costs (minor dents can cost $40,000 to repair to like new).

Kia & Hyundai tend to be a bit under average reliability, especially if you factor the cost to repair minor collisions.

camel

01-06-2024, 09:20 PM

It varies dramatically from make to make and even from model or year of the same make, but as a whole EVs are still less reliable than average (https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/electric-vehicles-are-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-a1047214174/). Probably more like a 1995 Chevy Corsica than Camry or Yugo...

If you can get by with 75 miles of range and don't mind glacial recharge times, the 2012-2014 Toyota Rav4 EV was very reliable*, but they only made ~2500 and afaik all were sold in California. *Tesla supplied motors did have a tendency to whine as they aged and were often replaced under warranty even though they worked fine. Tesla had the same whine in the model S and eventually fixed the issue.

Toyota's new BZ4x had serious problems with its rollout (wheels falling off is never good), but I expect it to be decent long term.

I'd avoid the 2011-2012 Leaf unless you are willing to drop $10k to upgrade/rebuild to newer/larger batteries. Even then, I wouldn't recommend it if you live in a hot climate. 2013+ were a bit more heat tolerant. Range might be as little as 30 miles on original batteries but over 150-200 miles on new/upgraded batteries. 2018+ had 150-200+ miles of range and have finally achieved average car reliability.

The Mitsubishi i-miev is disposable - avoid unless you want a largely unsupported project.

GM's EVs (bolt, hummer) are still problematic.

Ford's lightning is better, but still less reliable than the average truck. The Mach-E has been about as reliable as the average domestic suv.

Tesla ranges from a little below average to a fair bit above average depending on the model and year. I doubt any other EV maker has as many 200,000+ mile EVs on the road today, but build quality can be spotty...

Rivian's reliability has been disappointing as are their collision repair costs (minor dents can cost $40,000 to repair to like new).

Kia & Hyundai tend to be a bit under average reliability, especially if you factor the cost to repair minor collisions.

That’s a solid assessment.

0ddl0t

01-12-2024, 07:57 PM

Fighting EV fires with specialty fire blankets:

https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY?si=_giC95rohG-6J6E_

The car was a 2019 Jaguar I-Pace. Jaguar issued a fire warning in 2022, a recall in 2023, and a recall of the recall in November 2023 (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/recall-alert-jaguar-i-pace-gets-park-outside-warning/). No idea whether either of the recalls were performed on this particular car...

GJM

01-12-2024, 08:19 PM

WSJ reported Hertz is selling a big part of their EV fleet because of lower than expected demand and higher repair costs.

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/after-big-tesla-bet-hertz-selling-one-third-of-ev-fleet-5626a425

BehindBlueI's

01-12-2024, 11:37 PM

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a46365918/next-gen-dodge-charger-teaser/

Pre-production Charger 2-door. There will be a 4 door as well. Should be a base V6 NA option, at least for fleet but I think probably for regular sales as well, at least one version of the Hurricane V6 turbo, and EV options.

I like the looks of the exterior, but have no interest in the available drive trains or what I suspect the new price point will be. Our fleet will continue on with the NA V6 version.

GJM

01-13-2024, 05:00 AM

rdtompki

01-15-2024, 12:12 PM

A plethora of stranded Teslas, ABC news Chicago. Probably not a unique situation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGaqnj5hZU

GJM

01-15-2024, 01:03 PM

rob_s

01-15-2024, 01:11 PM

Porsche has a lot of information out on the EV Macan in the last few days. I heard they were planning EV only, but due to dealer pushback are keeping an ICE model. The Macan is the, or one of the, most popular Porsche vehicles.

I thought I once read that the Macan alone surpassed the sum total of all other Porsche sales.

Based on what I see on the road in my area (granted, a very superficial/wealth/showy-driven locale) I could believe it

I could also see pushing the Macan to ev-only reversing that trend.

rob_s

01-15-2024, 01:12 PM

The pendulum has swung. A year ago, people paid a premium to get an EV. Today, they want a discount. That is probably appropriate given the charging negatives associated with an EV. The performance of an EV, though, can be exhilarating.

What truly amazes me is that in a Post-Covid world where household appliances can take months to get and things like cargo vans are demanding a premium due to availability, seemingly every automaker on the planet managed to produce multiple ev models seemingly overnight.

GJM

01-15-2024, 01:16 PM

I thought I once read that the Macan alone surpassed the sum total of all other Porsche sales.

Based on what I see on the road in my area (granted, a very superficial/wealth/showy-driven locale) I could believe it

I could also see pushing the Macan to ev-only reversing that trend.

A few years ago, the Taycan, Porsche's EV, was their most popular model. No longer and the dealers screamed bloody under about making the Macan EV only, leading to continuing ICE Macans.

mmc45414

01-15-2024, 01:52 PM

seemingly every automaker on the planet managed to produce multiple ev models seemingly overnight.
I have contended that they should be much simpler to build, perhaps this substantiates my assertion. But they have been presented as a luxury item, and especially Musk is like Jobs was in the manner that they act like they have cracked some code and have done something nobody else is going to be able to do. Meanwhile Farley figures sure, if people want we can take an F-150 like we are already building a buttload of and leave a frunk where the ICE used to be. Probably should change the grille so the neighbors of the people that paid extra can tell the difference.

A year ago, people paid a premium to get an EV. Today, they want a discount.
Making them readily available kind of called the public's (government's) bluff, as it turns out.

I am not a hater, but I hate that people/Gov are trying to force a transition by jacking with the market.

rob_s

01-15-2024, 02:13 PM

A few years ago, the Taycan, Porsche's EV, was their most popular model. No longer and the dealers screamed bloody under about making the Macan EV only, leading to continuing ICE Macans.

can't vouch for the source, but these are purported to be the 2021 and 2022 numbers
https://www.best-selling-cars.com/brands/2022-full-year-usa-porsche-sales-by-model/

In reading this, I think maybe what I had read was that Porche SUVs (Cayenne and Macan combined) outsold all other models.

Taycan may be "popular" but looks like it's severely trounced by either SUV model in true sales.

So I can understand dealers not wanting to mess with that!

113963

RevolverRob

01-15-2024, 02:30 PM

One of my jiu jitsu friends works for a company doing Li-Ion battery recycling. I was asking him about safety procedures for fire. He informed me the biggest danger isn't the high heat - it is that the batteries produce various fluoride gases when combusted - including highly toxic HF and HFA as a byproduct.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z

Hydrofluoric gas and acid are two of the worst things for humans and actually any vertebrates. I'll be honest, that this is not widely acknowledged by the EPA, NHTSA, or insurance companies is absolutely shocking to me. This is a dirty little secret of EVs.

I am far and away more concerned about first responders and citizens being exposed to HF and HFA from EV crashes than I am the fire intensity.

TQP

01-15-2024, 03:38 PM

To be fair, being exposed to highly toxic stuff is what we do for a living. Also, SOP for any vehicle fire is attack from upwind and uphill if at all possible, so in most cases time inside the smoke is minimal.

The bigger problem, from my retired point of view, is how resource intensive they are. I'd be interested in how many person and fire truck hours they spent managing the cars in that video posted upthread, I'm guessing it was a lot more than the actual house fire. If the HF is going to degrade PPE to the point you'll be trashing stuff after every EV fire, all the worse. We're having the same supply chain issues as everyone else, and beyond the money if you're waiting 6 months for replacements that becomes a problem quickly. A local agency just ordered a ladder truck. Delivery in 4 YEARS! 5 or 10 years ago that would have been 12-18 months.

One of my jiu jitsu friends works for a company doing Li-Ion battery recycling. I was asking him about safety procedures for fire. He informed me the biggest danger isn't the high heat - it is that the batteries produce various fluoride gases when combusted - including highly toxic HF and HFA as a byproduct.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z

Hydrofluoric gas and acid are two of the worst things for humans and actually any vertebrates. I'll be honest, that this is not widely acknowledged by the EPA, NHTSA, or insurance companies is absolutely shocking to me. This is a dirty little secret of EVs.

I am far and away more concerned about first responders and citizens being exposed to HF and HFA from EV crashes than I am the fire intensity.

GJM

01-15-2024, 04:15 PM

can't vouch for the source, but these are purported to be the 2021 and 2022 numbers
https://www.best-selling-cars.com/brands/2022-full-year-usa-porsche-sales-by-model/

In reading this, I think maybe what I had read was that Porche SUVs (Cayenne and Macan combined) outsold all other models.

Taycan may be "popular" but looks like it's severely trounced by either SUV model in true sales.

So I can understand dealers not wanting to mess with that!

113963

Thanks for those numbers. Where I was confused, was between Porsche Experience Center deliveries vs sales. A year ago they started only doing Taycan and specialty deliveries at the CA PEC.

RoyGBiv

01-15-2024, 04:21 PM

4 YEARS![/B] 5 or 10 years ago that would have been 12-18 months.

I met with a power transmission company a while back and they reported 36 to 50 month lead times for things like transformers and other critical infrastructure... We're clearly in the wrong businesses....

GJM

01-27-2024, 06:50 AM

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-gm-and-ford-price-cuts-suggest-that-electric-cars-may-be-at-a-dead-end-1091aa16

rob_s

01-27-2024, 06:53 AM

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-gm-and-ford-price-cuts-suggest-that-electric-cars-may-be-at-a-dead-end-1091aa16

Best line in the whole article

“ EV doubters like Toyota bet on hybrids, and now look prescient”

TQP

01-27-2024, 07:31 AM

Best line in the whole article

“ EV doubters like Toyota bet on hybrids, and now look prescient”

No surprise.

When I first started looking at this stuff, and reading some less optimistic sites, it became pretty obvious that the logistics just aren't going to work out. If anyone pushing this had thought it through, they would have incentivized building the infrastructure before paying people to buy the cars. We're talking a lot of those transformers that RoyGBiv was talking about upthread.

It doesn't help that the Venn diagram of people with a good lifestyle fit ( city dwellers making short trips) and a good logistical fit (dedicated, offstreet, in cold climates garaged parking) doesn't overlap very much.

runcible

01-27-2024, 09:32 AM

Hybrids had their wandering period, where there was an explosion of different options and explorations; and as the timeline extends, most everything has consolidated back to two predominant options. More tellingly, each of those options are well into their simplifying and streamlining phases of product development; and rather than add more, they remove something else.

Mild hybrids have for the most part fallen by the wayside; leaving only the concept of using RWD electric motors to make otherwise FWD vehicles situationally AWD, whether for traction or for increased HP.

Traction motors powered by traction batteries have obviated the need for a separate starter motor, and so-configured hybrids are reportedly more robust in cold weather, given the combination of greater volume of stored energy, greater electrical output, and the resultant higher capability motor to turn over the ICE.

Kawasaki's Ninja 7 is in customer hands and bringing Toyota HSD-type functions in an incredibly small footprint, with a smaller increase in weight or volume than would have been expected even 5 years ago.

Hino M-class hybrids have been galumphing about for over a decade now, to the point where the primary indicator of being the hybrid variant is fuel efficiency and a little more pep departing a stop. (I suspect that body of data is why Toyota configured the i-FORCE Max as they did for the new Tacomas and Tundras.)

I don't think pure-electric systems are ever going to get past certain bottlenecks, and it's maddening that there doesn't appear to be an equivalent to Goddard's rocket equation in play for EV design, relative to the weight penalty of batteries. The Hummer EV are fascinatingly strange folks to read around the internet, with the combination of piety and largesse acting as a driver for different opinions.

I do think that prudent companies may reexplore the PHEV concept, that I suspect has also plateaued. Fix the batteries either for efficiency in net design or at what provides for the nominal commute, and then have an integral range-extender type micro-ICE with micro-tank to get you through the roadtrip - said ICE being solely for high-efficiency electrical generation. Sort of a Tesla with two ARC Micro Generators sound-insulated to either side of the trunk, if you will.

There's some very cool stuff to do with electric vehicles and so forth, and I think their development will pay massive dividends to the general automotive world; but the Nissan LEAF gen1 and the Mitsubishi i-MiEV are pretty stark examples of how relevant the proportionate depreciation of the net asset due to single-component wear-life drastically changes the overall cost-dynamic.

GJM

01-27-2024, 10:05 AM

What is startling is how quickly EV vehicles have gone from the "it child" to dead on arrival. I still love driving an EV, but it is a specific use vehicle as opposed to primary. My friend who is GM of a Fors dealer in Montana says they are still selling Lightnings but the Mustang E's are slow. The GM at a Porsche dealer in the SW says Taycan sales have screeched a halt and there is little interest in the new EV Macan.

runcible

01-27-2024, 10:21 AM

My personal suss on it is that when a broad range of less-niche (as presented, as advertised) options arrived from mainline brands, a wave of interest from the general driving public built, then cresting as batteries closed in on the end of their effective service lives, with all of the looming cost realities that go with that. Market interest then gradually redirected back towards the established cost dynamics.

Less than 5 years for most, when you get down to it.

littlejerry

01-27-2024, 10:48 AM

I've been fearing this outcome for the last 15 years.

The shortcomings of pure EV have been known for decades, and the easy napkin-level math identifies the need for a total step-change in battery technology akin to transition from vacuum tubes to solid state semi-conductors.

The issue is no one knows what the source of that step change is. The less knowledgeable policy makers have just assumed it's inevitability as if it were merely a new version of the i-Phone. They've built a regulatory trap for the manufaruers which requires them to develop and build vehicles the public doesn't want and in many cases can't afford.

This will unfortunately get much worse before it gets better. We're still in the "transition phase" where the CAFE requirements will continue to ratchet up to a level where fleets will have to be majority EV in order to maintain compliance. Total volume of traditional ICE and even hybrid vehicles will be cut well below market demand which in turn will drive prices up even beyond where they are today.

It's textbook market distortion and the consumer will suffer for it. As always the consumer with lowest means will suffer the most.

Navin Johnson

01-27-2024, 10:53 AM

This ^^^

All brought to you by your own tax dollars

Bucky

01-27-2024, 12:26 PM

Mild hybrids have for the most part fallen by the wayside; leaving only the concept of using RWD electric motors to make otherwise FWD vehicles situationally AWD, whether for traction or for increased HP.

Or vice versa, such as the Corvette ERay.

Borderland

01-27-2024, 12:30 PM

This thread has been enlightening. 💡

Bucky

01-27-2024, 12:30 PM

What is startling is how quickly EV vehicles have gone from the "it child" to dead on arrival. I still love driving an EV, but it is a specific use vehicle as opposed to primary.

I use mine as my primary, but I very rarely go more than 200 miles round trip. When I do, I'll take a gas vehicle. I've yet to charge at a public charging station.

My original intent when I made my purchase was to charge at work for free and essentially drive for free. I decided on different opportunities, so that's no longer an option (but I'm driving much less so...)

runcible

01-27-2024, 01:15 PM

Or vice versa, such as the Corvette ERay.

That's a very fair point! I'd go so far to say that it's almost that exception that proves the rule, as there are tangible advantages to the extra weight and weight-distro from having a full-length transmission and being primarily RWD, for such a car; but someone in New England doubtlessly intends for it to be their all-seasons daily driver in a big f u to the Subawoo crowd.

The E-Ray's cockpit looks fricking incredible; it's not a thing I generally dwell on, mostly driving utilitarian vehicles. But, what a lovely combination of digital and analog controls.

Bearing with the idea that hybrids are reaching sufficient maturity as a concept to reduce diversifying and maximize refinement, the swing of modern hybrids back towards as a performance enhancer is pretty cool.

(Ford tried to Prius the F-150 with Pro Power, which I still think is a very worthy and interesting concept, but it's just about their lowest rated and least reliable vehicle in the catalog right now. Toyota went the other way with their hybrid pickups and emphasized some fuel economy but most definitely towing ability.)

I was going to remark that I'd love to see them make a Porsche 911 hybrid as a more accessible successor to the 918 Spyder, so as to nudge the line a little further as far as software control of an electric motor, obviating a mechanical differential, for both maximum traction during a turn and AWD function at-speed... but it turns out that one's on the way for 2025.

mmc45414

01-27-2024, 01:23 PM

What is startling is how quickly EV vehicles have gone from the "it child" to dead on arrival.
I think scarcity created the buzz, everyone seemed to want one when they were just vaporware that no one could get. A friend was the owner/manager of a minor league hocky team. They were in an arena that had a capacity of about five times more than typical attendance, even on a good night it looked like nobody showed up. He told me there was no urgency to buy tickets, because you could show up anytime you wanted and buy a ticket, like a movie theater, and eventually they tanked. And now if you want an EV you can go buy an EV, and it turns out most people just liked to talk about EVs when they were the next big (unavailable) thing.

And IMO Musk exacerbated this by promising they would also drive themselves, and that sounds cool, but not sure the juice is worth the squeeze, and they probably overinvested in something that just might prove to be impractical. And they folded it in, as if it were just another included feature, like air conditioning. Car and Driver bought one in order try it out over the span of their normal 40k mile long term test (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a30209598/2019-tesla-model-3-reliability-maintenance/):

114461

I don't want to be a hater, but the government sure has turned it into a panacea goat rodeo.

Borderland

01-27-2024, 03:32 PM

This just in. I didn't see it anywhere so thought I would share.

The EPA is limiting consumer choice by forcing Americans into vehicles they might not be able to afford or conveniently fuel. According to Cox Automotive, in Nov. 2022, the average transaction price for EVs was above $65,000. EV prices have since declined, due primarily to an oversupply of EVs on dealer lots, to an average of $52,345 in November, vs. $48,247 for the average vehicle. In December, EV inventory was at a 114-day supply as compared to the industry average 71-day supply. This $4,000+ price difference, coupled with inadequate charging infrastructure (1.2 million public chargers and 20 million private chargers are estimated to be needed by 2030 to meet demand) and long charging times (most public chargers take 8-30 hours to charge), create market impediments that must be addressed.

https://www.nada.org/legislative/epas-new-electric-vehicle-mandate-too-far-too-fast

So when is the fed going to lighten up on the mandates? I don't they can admit they made a mistake. It's like ethanol.

https://youtu.be/F-yDKeya4SU

RoyGBiv

01-27-2024, 04:32 PM

it's maddening that there doesn't appear to be an equivalent to Goddard's rocket equation in play for EV design, relative to the weight penalty of batteries.

It's maddening that anyone thought that batteries, even LiPO, were ever going to be the answer to portable energy storage without SUBSTANTIAL improvements.... Maybe someday, someone will come up with a more energy dense battery (I'd wager it will look more like a Hydrogen fuel cell (https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/how-do-fuel-cell-electric-cars-work)than what we think of as a battery today), but, until that happens, plug in EV's are 30 weeks premature fetuses that can't survive out of NICU and destined for failure. All of the money invested in subsidies would have been far, far better invested in primary research, rather than the government picking winners.

In the 1960's solar cell efficiency was about 10% LINK (https://solarpower.guide/solar-energy-insights/solar-panel-efficiency). Today, bleeding edge commercial solar cells can get close to 40%. And they still don't have an acceptable ROI. This sort of patience, time and investment will be required to solve the renewable and net-zero questions. What we have today in EV's is a premature, feel-good, politically motivated cluster. At least there seems to be some reality sinking in recently.

rob_s

01-27-2024, 04:45 PM

TQP

01-27-2024, 05:01 PM

This just in. I didn't see it anywhere so thought I would share.
https://www.nada.org/legislative/epas-new-electric-vehicle-mandate-too-far-too-fast
So when is the fed going to lighten up on the mandates? I don't they can admit they made a mistake. It's like ethanol.
https://youtu.be/F-yDKeya4SU

Just like with the CAFE standards, people thought they could legislate dilithium crystals into existence.

News flash: You cannot change the laws of physics, captain.

Edit to add: the UK has already pushed back their EV mandate timeline, since it became obvious it couldn't happen .

Borderland

01-27-2024, 05:21 PM

I use mine as my primary, but I very rarely go more than 200 miles round trip. When I do, I'll take a gas vehicle. I've yet to charge at a public charging station.

My original intent when I made my purchase was to charge at work for free and essentially drive for free. I decided on different opportunities, so that's no longer an option (but I'm driving much less so...)

The county I worked for bought many EV's. You could probably drive anywhere in the county and back in fewer than 200 miles. The problem was maintenance. The county had a maintenance facility for all of their vehicles (900) except the EV's. Maintenance super said they couldn't work on those. That had to be an added expense.

JAD

01-27-2024, 05:39 PM

First, the Tesla, which has a pretty lame battery (cylindrical has stopped making sense), is adequate to task for most drivers. We don’t really need better batteries except to eliminate corner cases. It will require a midlife battery change, and that’s OK; and it will only last 10 years, and that’s also OK.

Mild hybrids are fine; they do a little and take a little, and that’s nice. They’re a good feature, but not part of the discussion really.

Plug in hybrids are good at neither thing. The advantage of EVs is that they’re very simple machines, but if you lay one on top of a perfectly functional ICV you have two vehicles doing the work of one.

We are discussing this as if we have options. We don’t; the government will eliminate ICEs, well before we have the industry or infrastructure to support it. They will continue to create demand that domestic supply can’t satisfy and ultimately we will be even more beholden to China. It’s really bad; it’s also inevitable, because we keep electing people who have an unsustainable approach to economics. This will cause the collapse of society; that aligns itself perfectly with statist goals — the state of emergency is the atmosphere totalitarianism breathes.

Bucky

01-28-2024, 06:38 AM

The county I worked for bought many EV's. You could probably drive anywhere in the county and back in fewer than 200 miles. The problem was maintenance. The county had a maintenance facility for all of their vehicles (900) except the EV's. Maintenance super said they couldn't work on those. That had to be an added expense.

I’ll probably trade mine in after 6 years. I’ll probably take a trade-in hit being an EV, but if savings on oil and gas breaks me even, I’m OK with that. It’s a surprising fun car, and I do like not stopping for gas or scheduling oil changes.

uechibear

01-28-2024, 07:56 AM

Or vice versa, such as the Corvette ERay.

That's a very fair point! I'd go so far to say that it's almost that exception that proves the rule, as there are tangible advantages to the extra weight and weight-distro from having a full-length transmission and being primarily RWD, for such a car; but someone in New England doubtlessly intends for it to be their all-seasons daily driver in a big f u to the Subawoo crowd.

The E-Ray's cockpit looks fricking incredible; it's not a thing I generally dwell on, mostly driving utilitarian vehicles. But, what a lovely combination of digital and analog controls....<snip>

I was going to remark that I'd love to see them make a Porsche 911 hybrid as a more accessible successor to the 918 Spyder, so as to nudge the line a little further as far as software control of an electric motor, obviating a mechanical differential, for both maximum traction during a turn and AWD function at-speed... but it turns out that one's on the way for 2025.

About 48 ERay Corvettes have been made so far, over the last 2.5 weeks, since regular production started. Once they finish QC and get them into the hands of customers (slow ramp up at the beginning), I think even more people will see what a cool car it is. I'm hoping to be a big part of that public education process through my website, and I do intend driving it in the New Hampshire snow... THIS winter!

I loved the interior in my C8 Stingray, and my 2024 ERay will have the same Wall Of Buttons, etc.

There's no mechanical link between the V-8 engine driving the huge rear wheels and the electric motor that turns the front wheels (and regens the quick-discharge/recharge battery). Integration of the two power plants is controlled entirely by software, and it's quite amazing what the engineers have accomplished in that regard. The ERay actually pulls you out of a high-speed turn by adding power to the front wheels, and you get torque vectoring by software control of the carbon ceramic brakes. Apparently, it feels seemless to the driver, but I'll let you know!

runcible

01-28-2024, 11:05 AM

About 48 ERay Corvettes have been made so far, over the last 2.5 weeks, since regular production started. Once they finish QC and get them into the hands of customers (slow ramp up at the beginning), I think even more people will see what a cool car it is. I'm hoping to be a big part of that public education process through my website, and I do intend driving it in the New Hampshire snow... THIS winter!

I loved the interior in my C8 Stingray, and my 2024 ERay will have the same Wall Of Buttons, etc.

There's no mechanical link between the V-8 engine driving the huge rear wheels and the electric motor that turns the front wheels (and regens the quick-discharge/recharge battery). Integration of the two power plants is controlled entirely by software, and it's quite amazing what the engineers have accomplished in that regard. The ERay actually pulls you out of a high-speed turn by adding power to the front wheels, and you get torque vectoring by software control of the carbon ceramic brakes. Apparently, it feels seemless to the driver, but I'll let you know!

Bruv, you've been here *12.5 years*... now is your time!

This was an absolutely kingly response, if rather unexpected. I appreciate the gentle correction on the transmission, as I had not considered nor known that the engine was rear in location, though in retrospect that only makes sense.

Enjoy responsibly!

MistWolf

01-28-2024, 11:21 AM

Teslas in the dead of the Chicago winter. Or is that Chicago winter in a dead Tesla?

https://youtube.com/shorts/aEPInmjiBKw?si=Fw_cbvPPPN5dxV71

Navin Johnson

01-28-2024, 11:26 AM

I believe the E-ray is a hybrid not full electric

Bucky

01-28-2024, 01:31 PM

I believe the E-ray is a hybrid not full electric

Yes, mid engine 6.2L drives rear wheels, electric motor in the front. Battery takes up the space where a transmission would normally sit in a front engine RWD car. (Emphasize “normally”, since C6, C7s have the transmission in the rear.

ETA: Hybrid for the sake of performance, not efficiency.

Navin Johnson

01-28-2024, 01:33 PM

Yes, mid engine 6.2L drives rear wheels, electric motor in the front. Battery takes up the space where a transmission would normally sit in a front engine RWD car. (Emphasize “normally”, since C6, C7s have the transmission in the rear.

ETA: Hybrid for the sake of performance, not efficiency.

Thread title?

Bucky

01-28-2024, 01:56 PM

Thread title?

Thread drift? I know that’s never happened in the history of PF, but it was bound to happen eventually. :rolleyes:

Then again, isn’t a hybrid technically an electric vehicle, even if not an electric only vehicle?

idahojess

01-28-2024, 04:42 PM

Hybrids make a lot of sense, so long as the battery holds up. I've never owned one, but I've driven a Prius at work occasionally on trips. The range and gas mileage on them are great.

Electric vehicles, at least where I live in Eastern Washington, really don't make sense.

A fellow that I know spent two hours at the Yakima Walmart charging up an EV on his way to Tacoma, which is about a 5-6 hour drive normally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

mmc45414

01-29-2024, 09:24 AM

There's no mechanical link between the V-8 engine driving the huge rear wheels and the electric motor that turns the front wheels (and regens the quick-discharge/recharge battery). Integration of the two power plants is controlled entirely by software, and it's quite amazing what the engineers have accomplished in that regard. The ERay actually pulls you out of a high-speed turn by adding power to the front wheels, and you get torque vectoring by software control of the carbon ceramic brakes. Apparently, it feels seamless to the driver, but I'll let you know!
Cool that it regens on the front, where most of the braking takes place anyway, capturing energy for acceleration, rather than just casting it off as heat.
Will it do things like back out of the garage without firing up if you want? Dunno why, but that seems to be an appealing stunt to me.

uechibear

01-29-2024, 09:49 AM

mmc45414 It actually recharges the battery a few different ways, and your statement is correct. It also has a Charge+ mode that can be activated when you want to sacrifice a few horsepower to quickly replenish the battery, such as doing extended lapping on a racetrack or topping up before parking at night, so you have a full charge when you start out in the morning. You'd shut Charge+ off to do a "hero lap," of course, so you have maximum power.

It has two different modes that allow driving without starting the engine, and I think at the very least, it's a cool party trick. At best, it helps keep peace with neighbors (or a wife) who're bothered by a loud cold start early in the morning. It can be driven about 4 miles on battery alone, depending on temperature, etc. The battery chemistry is totally unique to the ERay (not used in any other cars) and is meant strictly for performance, rather than fuel economy.

RevolverRob

01-29-2024, 10:33 AM

If you're like me and you've stopped generally paying attention to the rhetoric that EVs are the future or that the Government is going to take away your ICE. You might see a few things around the corner.

Last year's Goodwood Festival of Speed - provided fuel to competitors (ultra rich competitors) for their classic cars. It was all synthetic fuel. This was a move to begin to garner support for what's actually going on...https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-coverage/goodwood-revival/2023/9/sustainable-fuels--setting-the-example-at-revival-2023/

Over the past 2 years Porsche has invested $100+ million in synthetic fuel development: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43239225/porsche-chile-e-fuels-synthetic-gasoline/

Formula 1 aims to be 100% synthetic fuel starting in 2026 and net-zero carbon by 2030: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.formula-1-on-course-to-deliver-100-sustainable-fuels-for-2026.1szcnS0ehW3I0HJeelwPam.html - This spurred Porsche and Ford both attempting to get into Formula 1 for the sole purpose of sustainable fuel engine development...

The simple reality is - no one in their right mind with a physics, chemistry, or engineering degree ever thought fully electric vehicles were going to supplant highly efficient internal combustion engines. At this point we have pushed efficiency about as far as possible with ICE and reduced carbon emissions significantly. We have to switch to the other side of the equation to get them down to net-zero or very near net-zero. That is reduce the carbon emissions used to make the vehicles, the fuel, and infrastructure to deliver it to the consumers.

The reality is that EVs are not a net-zero sum and never will be. The decision by lawmakers to continually block the development of new nuclear power plants, the inability to safely and reasonably mine materials for batteries, and the ability to make and deliver the vehicles. The EV part of the equation does not offset the high carbon amount needed to make the vehicle and importantly, cannot if it requires a mid-life battery replacement. It can never be a zero-sum equation that way. Put another way - if Tesla was really serious about net-zero vehicles their vehicles would be driven by a person to their dealers, using Tesla fast chargers fed only off of renewable energy. Instead, they are loaded onto trains and semis and bussed to dealers...

farscott

01-29-2024, 10:51 AM

Not sure I would call any ICE engine "highly efficient" as the most efficient ever is not 55% efficient and the most efficient F1 engine is about 50% efficient. Sometimes we enjoy the inefficiency, especially during cold weather as the waste heat is useful. Many other times it is just heat that needs to be dissipated.

EVs are not perfect by any means, still being relatively early in life as commercial products, but they have demonstrated much more efficiency than any ICE vehicle. Numbers have been reported above 75%. The issue is, as always, the batteries. Battery tech is still not good enough in terms of charging times and safety (see thermal runaway). There are some batteries in development that seem to be making progress, such as Nanotech Energy's cells, but we are a long way from commercializing the tech. https://nanotechenergy.com/new-battery-technology/batteries-for-electric-cars/

I expect we will see more progress in the next twenty years with battery tech. Until we do, the reports of the demise of the ICE are surely exaggerated.

GJM

01-29-2024, 11:29 AM

Not quite, but EV seems to be this year's version of crypto. The difference is the players, like Porsche are sophisticated and should know better about judging the 3-5 year future.

NETim

01-29-2024, 11:54 AM

I'm sorry but every time I see this thread in the list, my brain sees "EV Catch Fire Thread." I'm biased I admit.

GJM

01-29-2024, 12:37 PM

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/dealers-to-gm-we-want-hybrids-5387d2bf

Dealers want hybrids.

mmc45414

01-29-2024, 12:54 PM

The difference is the players, like Porsche are sophisticated and should know better about judging the 3-5 year future.
I sorta wonder if they might be well positioned to take advantage of situations like this. They do a ton of variations on a handful of platforms, and presumably sell at higher margin, and do not sell in high volume (in the F-150 sense), so maybe they can be nimble and fill niche markets better than the bigger automakers. I worry more about some of the smaller makers, that do not do that much volume either, some of them have made total commitments.

runcible

01-30-2024, 09:31 AM

Put another way - if Tesla was really serious about net-zero vehicles their vehicles would be driven by a person to their dealers, using Tesla fast chargers fed only off of renewable energy. Instead, they are loaded onto trains and semis and bussed to dealers...

This is an interesting supposition - minus the odd off-the-cuff remark, is net-zero a specific priority for Tesla and/or its ad copy?

I was under the impression that they not only generally eschewed such advertisement and pandering, and more specifically sold their cars from a different premise than ecological virtue.

Navin Johnson

01-30-2024, 10:04 AM

https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/dealers-to-gm-we-want-hybrids-5387d2bf

Dealers want hybrids.

I live in one of the e-car capitols of the world

Teslas still sell decently new because it is a status symbol to certain demographics

Ford, Hundai, Kia, Chev, etc. lots are stuffed with e-cars that arn't selling. Remember when a manufacturer delivers a vehicle to a dealer it is considered sold on their books..... even if it is rotting at the dealership.

rayrevolver

01-30-2024, 10:29 AM

I live in one of the e-car capitols of the world

Teslas still sell decently new because it is a status symbol to certain demographics

Ford, Hundai, Kia, Chev, etc. lots are stuffed with e-cars that arn't selling. Remember when a manufacturer delivers a vehicle to a dealer it is considered sold on their books..... even if it is rotting at the dealership.

We just bought a used Hyundai for my son. The dealership experience just sucks in general. We had to fight random charges, price increased because no trade in... The usual BS. 3 hours of shenanigans.

Tesla you can buy the car from your computer, naked eating Cheetos on a beanbag chair. You can setup your phone with the Tesla app. You set a time and just pickup the car. I imagine this also drives people to give Tesla a shot.

Not for me, buying new is too pricey. I can fight with a salesman for a few hours every 5 years or so to save some cash on a used vehicle.

EDIT: I will say, wife bought a KIA Telluride from Wilkes Barre, a 4 hour road trip for us (sold at MSRP where our local dealer wanted $10k). Told them on the phone we would be there 1 hour before they closed. We were in and out, no surprises. First time ever driving one was taking it off the lot. The owner chatted with me, it was a nice outfit. I think that guy sold out to a bigger dealership.

Borderland

01-30-2024, 10:48 AM

RevolverRob

01-30-2024, 10:51 AM

This is an interesting supposition - minus the odd off-the-cuff remark, is net-zero a specific priority for Tesla and/or its ad copy?

I was under the impression that they not only generally eschewed such advertisement and pandering, and more specifically sold their cars from a different premise than ecological virtue.

It is honestly difficult to know what Tesla's priorities are, since they constantly change what they say and market. And how they interact with everyone.

Tesla does have a master plan - https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-3 - They don't specifically state net-zero instead opting for "sustainable". Theoretically, those are not the same - but realistically people treat net-zero as equal sustainable. Sustainable is realistically near-zero.

They are certainly pushing an implicit aspect of net/near zero. But of course it is only achievable it we use Tesla's technology.

RoyGBiv

01-30-2024, 10:55 AM

We just bought a used Hyundai for my son. The dealership experience just sucks in general. We had to fight random charges, price increased because no trade in... The usual BS. 3 hours of shenanigans.

<snipped>

EDIT: I will say, wife bought a KIA Telluride from Wilkes Barre, a 4 hour road trip for us (sold at MSRP where our local dealer wanted $10k). Told them on the phone we would be there 1 hour before they closed. We were in and out, no surprises. First time ever driving one was taking it off the lot. The owner chatted with me, it was a nice outfit. I think that guy sold out to a bigger dealership.

Bought a new Hyundai for our daughter when she graduated college... Hyundai around here is in the lower rent areas... both local dealers... not awful, but slightly sketchy. Buying experience was not too bad... mostly over the phone... once the details were confirmed, I made it clear that I was filling out the check before I got there, so, no adds or other BS. Mostly ok... So far, I've been impressed with Hyundai service... Proactive but not annoying (great for a young college grad who definitely did not take care of the used car we bought her in HS)... prices are very reasonable and so are wait times for scheduled service.. 100K warranty is nice too..

Similar purchase experience with my current car... currently ~9yo.... saw the ad online... called and did the deal... brought a check same day... was out the door in about 30 minutes.

Would take me an hour to type the stories of the last 2 cars I bought for my wife.... One good (massive new Years Eve discount), the other took almost 6 hours and 2 walks to the car.. lol. Wife was angry for days about that one. :o It was a minivan, so, we deserved in, in a way... ;)

PearTree

01-30-2024, 02:24 PM

I live in same the area. I see a lot of Teslas on the road. Neighbor, retired IT guy, has one.

I remember a guy I know, upper level manager at Boeing, telling me about 6 years ago that he had just ordered a Tesla. I remember thinking, who would want one of those? Then it hit me, he wanted it for the prestige. He lived in an exclusive neighborhood (not my neighborhood) and had a trophy wife.

Initially I would agree with this take but Tesla has been around for over a decade now and sold 2 million cars. If you go to EV forums the main reason people choose Tesla is because of the established and reliable charging infrastructure. With the US standardizing on the nacs plug all US cars and chargers will use the same plug in the future negating the lead Tesla has over everyone else. Tesla is also opening their network up to ccs cars going forwards.

DDTSGM

01-30-2024, 09:01 PM

Talk about cold weather and electric vehicles has been discussed.

Kind of off topic, but due to remodeling my back garage into a quilting room for my wife, this is the first year I've stored my Street Glide in my unheated pole barn. Normally I keep the garage at 50 degrees through the winter and have never had any problems with any of my motorcycles starting.

I moved all three of my 'riders' down to the pole barn and didn't immediately put them on maintainers. About a week later I realized that I hadn't hooked them up and went down to hook them up.

The Street Glide - with two year old lithium battery - wouldn't even turn over. Not having a lithium battery charger I did hook it up to it's maintainer which has a lithium setting. About two weeks later I came down to the shop and it was still yellow - not charged - the bike turned over a couple times but didn't start.

Several days ago, the temp got above 50 degrees, I went down and the maintainer was green and the bike started right up.

I'm pretty sure this is going to be my last lithium battery for the Street Glide.

0ddl0t

01-30-2024, 10:47 PM

if Tesla was really serious about net-zero vehicles their vehicles would be driven by a person to their dealers, using Tesla fast chargers fed only off of renewable energy. Instead, they are loaded onto trains and semis and bussed to dealers...

There are lots of reasons to criticize Musk, but his commitment to zero carbon isn't one of them. He invested massively in Solar as far back as 2006 with the intention of using solar to power all Tesla superchargers on the road and powerwalls at home. He released the first useable electric semi in 2022 and created the Boring Company to modernize subway systems and bypass railroad regulated monopolies.

He is almost unilaterally expediting infrastructure that took the fossil fuel industry 100 years and trillions of dollars in subsidies to develop.

RevolverRob

01-30-2024, 11:06 PM

There are lots of reasons to criticize Musk, but his commitment to zero carbon isn't one of them. He invested massively in Solar as far back as 2006 with the intention of using solar to power all Tesla superchargers on the road and powerwalls at home. He released the first useable electric semi in 2022 and created the Boring Company to modernize subway systems and bypass railroad regulated monopolies.

He is almost unilaterally expediting infrastructure that took the fossil fuel industry 100 years and trillions of dollars in subsidies to develop.

Ah yes, the Boring Company...1 successful system completed, 1 test tunnel dug, 18 projects canceled...A rousing success.

The semi is interesting, but real world testing will tell us more soon. They have only been out for ~6 months now.

0ddl0t

01-30-2024, 11:40 PM

I suspect the Boring Company's lack of development has more to do with Musk spreading himself too thin than anything else.

Pepsi has been using Tesla semis for a little over a year and have put about a million miles (combined) on them so far. Most of that is short haul, but they do have 1 slip-seated truck that's done a few ~10,000 mile weeks - nearly double what most diesel over the road team trucks typically do. So Mega Watt charging seems to be fast enough, but there are only a handful of chargers at the moment...

The nice thing is Semi driver & battery maintenance HVAC demands aren't much higher than in a model 3, but the total battery bank capacity is so much higher in the Semi that cold weather range degradation isn't nearly as significant. Using 20kwh of your Model 3's 60 kwh battery to keep the driver and battery packs warm hurts your range a lot. Using 30kwh of a 900kwh Semi battery is hardly noticeable...

Navin Johnson

01-31-2024, 01:08 AM

The rental car fleets are going to begin dumping electric cars (30-50% and not just Hertz) due to higher than anticipated maintenance, and lack of interest by consumers. Rates on electric cars for rental are in the $10-$20 a day range.

Dip shit municipalities that bought electric buses are sitting on broken unrepairable buses due to the companies that made them going bankrupt while our transportation secretary of the United States sold her stock in these electric bus companies at its peak for 1.6 million

In the electric car capital of the northwest many apartment buildings are not allowing tenants to have electric cars parked in the buildings (insurance regulations) due to fire hazards. But don’t worry, local governments will mandate the fire hazards.

In this area used electric cars are a good value (if less than half msrp) due to the glut and un sellability of most models.

Oh yea, out tax dollars have subsidized all of this.

RoyGBiv

01-31-2024, 07:44 AM

The rental car fleets are going to begin dumping electric cars (30-50% and not just Hertz) due to higher than anticipated maintenance, and lack of interest by consumers. Rates on electric cars for rental are in the $10-$20 a day range.

Had to take my car in to the dealer for a warranty repair recently. Was expecting it to take more than 2 days, so, I specifically requested a gas loaner. Manager said they only had one in their fleet, but that she would call me when it was available....

I suppose an electric loaner can be a fun way to introduce customers to the experience, but, how many ICE owners want a loaner car they don't have the knowledge or desire to learn how to refuel? Or an account set up for using a charger somewhere? Same for rental cars.... If I pick up a rental in Houston (Bush, North Side) and have to drive an hour 1 way to Pearland (barely South of town), then spend 3-4 days working around town, I'm going to have to figure out where to plug the thing in and probably set up an account to pay for the charge... Or, I can swap it for a gas car and not have to worry. How this isn't a first-order concern for rental car companies is bewildering.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/GElyvue_13cAAAAC/april-fools-joke.gif

mmc45414

01-31-2024, 08:05 AM

Kind of off topic, but due to remodeling my back garage into a quilting room for my wife, this is the first year I've stored my Street Glide in my unheated pole barn.
What a guy, the model of Chivalry! :cool:

The Street Glide - with two year old lithium battery - wouldn't even turn over. Not having a lithium battery charger I did hook it up to it's maintainer which has a lithium setting. About two weeks later I came down to the shop and it was still yellow - not charged - the bike turned over a couple times but didn't start.

Several days ago, the temp got above 50 degrees, I went down and the maintainer was green and the bike started right up.

I'm pretty sure this is going to be my last lithium battery for the Street Glide.
And I could see some trips where night time temperatures get cold, and anything marginal could be an issue. Probably would need to bring the battery into a hotel room and charge it.
Frequently while I eat my lunch (WFH) I pop on YouTube, many of the videos are about the right duration for eating. We also have a boat, and I really enjoy this guy's videos (https://www.youtube.com/@BornAgainBoating) (I enjoy his presentation and he covers a LOT of topics ETA: There is not any overt religious content, I think his channel title, Born Again Boating, refers to restoring some of the clunkers he works on) and in the midst of this thread one day this video popped up (https://youtu.be/VGO-qvC4VLM), and I enjoyed the explanation. I was not aware of how temperature sensitive the charging process is.

the bike turned over a couple times but didn't start.
I am ASSuming the bike is new enough to be injected, and I expect it might turn over, but didn't have injector pressure adequate to even try and start. A friend had a snowmobile with a early version of injection that was pull start, but still had a battery, and it needed to be charged to start, something we all learned the hard way, after trading off on the pull rope one day until we eventually admitted defeat.

JohnO

01-31-2024, 08:28 AM

Why would anyone want a spontaneously combustible vehicle?

GM advising some Bolt EV owners to park 50 feet away from other cars in case of fire
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/15/gm-advising-some-bolt-ev-owners-to-park-50-feet-away-from-other-cars.html

“In an effort to reduce potential damage to structures and nearby vehicles in the rare event of a potential fire, we recommend parking on the top floor or on an open-air deck and park 50 feet or more away from another vehicle,” Flores said in an email.

I've read that EV fires have melted concrete and penetrated through parking structure decks.

MichaelD

01-31-2024, 09:06 AM

That Chevy Bolt news was 2 1/2 years ago. LG batteries apparently suck.

BehindBlueI's

01-31-2024, 07:11 PM

Joe in PNG

01-31-2024, 07:23 PM

It's been suggested editorially that PNG move towards electric vehicles (https://www.thenational.com.pg/where-are-the-benefits-of-foreign-trips/). Which is utterly amusing from a local standpoint:
-The electrical grid here is more often off than on, with multiple daily blackouts
-The roads are beyond horrible
-Flooding is not an unknown thing
-The general infrastructure is poor
-Anything not nailed down, fenced in, and guarded 24/7 will probably be stolen- and if they can pry it off, it wasn't nailed down enough
-Li batteries are fragile beast that can do bad things when not treated properly- and they won't be in a place that abuses vehicles like PNG

runcible

01-31-2024, 09:47 PM

It is honestly difficult to know what Tesla's priorities are, since they constantly change what they say and market. And how they interact with everyone.

Tesla does have a master plan - https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-3 - They don't specifically state net-zero instead opting for "sustainable". Theoretically, those are not the same - but realistically people treat net-zero as equal sustainable. Sustainable is realistically near-zero.

They are certainly pushing an implicit aspect of net/near zero. But of course it is only achievable it we use Tesla's technology.

I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable throwing such a lambast out with such a suppositive premise; but others may be guided differently. Inshallah.

rdtompki

02-02-2024, 10:10 AM

Dog Guy

02-02-2024, 11:15 AM

Short video on European EV "passports" from MGUY Australia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CEuikQr_vI&t=3s

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CEuikQr_vI&t=3s)Another video discussing properties of an EV ignition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKm9-S0_UY

He's not an EV fan but I don't sense a heavy bias. (and his videos are short).

That's spooky stuff.
I've been considering switching from lead acid to lithium for the batteries in our pop-up camper. The batteries live inside the camper due to space and layout constraints (not great but acceptable risk), and the vehicle sees a lot of rough road exploration time.
The information on battery characteristics that has been presented in this thread has pretty much convinced me that lithium would be a bad move. There's just too little time between "hey, something's wrong" and catastrophe in such a small space.
The odds aren't terrible but are sub-optimal. The stakes are what worry me.

LittleLebowski

02-02-2024, 11:18 AM

That's spooky stuff.
I've been considering switching from lead acid to lithium for the batteries in our pop-up camper. The batteries live inside the camper due to space and layout constraints (not great but acceptable risk), and the vehicle sees a lot of rough road exploration time.
The information on battery characteristics that has been presented in this thread has pretty much convinced me that lithium would be a bad move. There's just too little time between "hey, something's wrong" and catastrophe in such a small space.
The odds aren't terrible but are sub-optimal. The stakes are what worry me.

LiFePo4 lithium iron phosphate batteries are crazy safe, safer than the lithium ion battery in your phone in your pocket. They've temperature limitations but that is easily addressed.

Dog Guy

02-02-2024, 11:37 AM

LiFePo4 littium iron phosphate batteries are crazy safe, safer than the lithium ion in your phone in your pocket. They've temperature limitations but that is easily addressed.

Thanks. I'll need to read up on the details.

0ddl0t

02-02-2024, 04:01 PM

EV fleets are not saving anyone money over ICE in smaller vehicles and I doubt semis are going to be the breakthrough.

It depends on your input costs. If you charge at home (or at your business), a Tesla model 3 costs only slightly more to operate than a Toyota Prius (which is consistently one of the lowest cost of ownership vehicles). If you charge at commercial charging stations, the Model 3 costs considerably more.

Throw in incentives & tax credits and the model 3 may end up costing slightly less.

Looking at the Modesto electric prices for residential EV vs industrial rate, it is clear that Pepsi's Modesto location enjoys incredibly cheap electricity (particularly if charging overnight).

Industrial electric rates:
114736

Residential electric rates for EV owner:
114737

Compare this to the Modesto commercial EV charging stations and you can see why it is so important to charge at home or your business:
114738

I can see how Pepsi is able to claim a fuel cost savings when I compare $0.06/kwh to Modesto diesel prices, which are among the highest in the nation: $4.60 at the pump (which is more likely around $4.00 when using a fleet card to purchase).

The sneaky difference is that California & the feds are pocketing about $1.60/gallon in diesel taxes and various fees - ~$0.70 of which is used to pay for roads. Ultimately EVs should be paying their fair share of road taxes, but they're not. When they inevitably do, they'll probably cost more to operate even for industrial companies in California...

BehindBlueI's

02-02-2024, 05:54 PM

It depends on your input costs. If you charge at home (or at your business), a Tesla model 3 costs only slightly more to operate than a Toyota Prius (which is consistently one of the lowest cost of ownership vehicles). If you charge at commercial charging stations, the Model 3 costs considerably more.

I said fleets. I get some individuals may save money on an EV vs an ICE if the stars align. No fleet is. And they've tried. If businesses save any money, it'll be tax credit games and not actually operating costs.

I can see how Pepsi is able to claim a fuel cost savings when I compare $0.06/kwh to Modesto diesel prices, which are among the highest in the nation: $4.60 at the pump (which is more likely around $4.00 when using a fleet card to purchase).

That's always the pitch. Then that savings is chewed up and spit out by cost of infrastructure, depreciation, crashes costing more, initial purchase price, increased down time, etc.

JohnO

02-06-2024, 04:17 PM

https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY?si=edmGtLS64j89vRdY

farscott

02-06-2024, 04:28 PM

LiFePo4 lithium iron phosphate batteries are crazy safe, safer than the lithium ion battery in your phone in your pocket. They've temperature limitations but that is easily addressed.

LFP batteries still have the thermal runaway issue, so "crazy safe" is not a term I use with those batteries. LFP cells do not pass UL 9540A fire testing by themselves; they need a good module design to pass the test. The cells that do pass without need for that good module design I would call "crazy safe".

rob_s

02-09-2024, 06:13 AM

https://apple.news/ApX5K5KZlR1qv1nwN-0VMCw

114923

RoyGBiv

02-09-2024, 07:24 AM

Toyota Did Not Go Green With Electric Vehicles, Now They Are Going Green in Earnings (https://redstate.com/beckynoble/2024/02/07/toyota-did-not-go-green-with-electric-vehicles-now-they-are-going-green-in-earnings-n2169770)

Unlike the CEOs of Ford and GM, Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda may be a visionary. Speaking to employees recently, Toyoda said that he believes that EVs will never make up more than a third of the car market. He also pointed out that around 1 billion people worldwide still live without electricity, making the appeal of EVs limited. Toyoda went on to say that “Customers — not regulations or politics — should make that decision.” What a concept. Toyota seems to have figured out that it literally doesn't pay to play follow the leader.

Navin Johnson

02-09-2024, 09:41 AM

Toyota (and likely other brands) is telling dealers to prepare for large amounts of EV trade ins over the next several years based on current trends. In other words take them in with consideration to the upcoming glut (ie. don't pay to much)

Lots of used T3's on lots in my area

Although Teslas still sell well new (status among certain demographic groups?). Not so much other EV's

BobM

02-09-2024, 10:11 AM

RoyGBiv

02-09-2024, 10:32 AM

Honda has been building a large battery producing plant in Fayette Co, OH along I-71 for at least a year now. It was touted as bringing a lot of jobs to this area, but now I'm wondering as the demand seems to be falling.

Depends on what kind of batteries and how flexible the lines are.... I don't see the demand for battery storage of solar and wind power diminishing in the near future. Quite the opposite. Make power during the day/wind, store in batteries for when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing.

I also don't see the demand for hybrids falling off any cliffs. So... batteries should be a growth industry, but maybe not the plug-in EV type.

Navin Johnson

02-09-2024, 11:17 AM

Malamute

02-09-2024, 11:37 AM

Likely for hybrid

Toyota has hybrid-ed almost entire fleet no doubt Honda will also

Ive been watching this discussion, hybrid seems more practical and efficient overall. Dont most train engines operate basically as hybrids?

MickAK

02-09-2024, 11:45 AM

Ive been watching this discussion, hybrid seems more practical and efficient overall. Dont most train engines operate basically as hybrids?

Most are diesel-electric, meaning the diesel engine drives a generator that powers electric motors for propulsion.

You might be thinking of electro diesel that can run on either electric or diesel, which are fairly limited but exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive

Navin Johnson

02-09-2024, 11:46 AM

Ive been watching this discussion, hybrid seems more practical and efficient overall. Dont most train engines operate basically as hybrids?

Technically they are electric with diesel generators

In a car the electric motor on a hybrid is a supplement not primary drive

Malamute

02-09-2024, 11:57 AM

Actually, I understand how they function, just not how the terms of hybrid apply in relation to cars.

Thanks for the clarifying comments.

runcible

02-09-2024, 12:16 PM

In minor clarification, two of the primary sorts of hybrids out there are series and parallel.

Priuses and similar options are parallel hybrids, both HSDs and non-HSDs; wherein both the ICE and the electric motors can drive the vehicle.

Series hybrids, which may include such trains as were previously discussed, as well as pure-electric vehicles with an ICE range extender attached, only drive through the efforts of the electric motors, while charging off of their ICE output.

GJM

03-06-2024, 06:33 AM

https://mustreadalaska.com/electric-car-in-winter-pro-tip-keep-your-parka-close/

Cold wx considerations

whomever

03-06-2024, 08:30 AM

Maybe of interest: Canadian startup making new and retrofit diesel electric trucks. Replace the diesel motor+transmission with a half-the-displacement diesel+generator, with electric motors as input to the differentials. The idea is you run for a while on batteries, when they get low the diesel fires up and runs at optimal load charging the batteries, then shuts down. There isn't anything wrong with the physics: IC motors are most efficient at full-ish loads.

Kind of a neat twist for logging trucks - the batteries drive the unloaded truck to the usually higher elevation logging site, load a big bunch of logs, then you use regenerative braking going downhill to charge the batteries. Vaguely like the pump-water-uphill as energy storage but with logs.

Also making a retrofit kit for smaller trucks, aimed at e.g. pipeline welders and other utility trucks.

https://www.edisonmotors.ca/

No idea if it will catch on, but a neat idea.

mmc45414

03-06-2024, 09:03 AM

Replace the diesel motor+transmission with a half-the-displacement diesel+generator, with electric motors as input to the differentials. The idea is you run for a while on batteries, when they get low the diesel fires up and runs at optimal load charging the batteries, then shuts down. There isn't anything wrong with the physics: IC motors are most efficient at full-ish loads.

I know in this country one of the challenges has been the EPA requirements for stationary things like generators differing from road going vehicles. One guy I was trying to sell to summed it up as "If we could just go buy a genset from Yanmar and bolt in the back of a bus it would be simple", and another company I was trying to sell to was trying to program a controller to fire up the genset when the truck was put in park, since then it wasn't part of the driveline, not sure if that ever flew.

I have always thought this could be a great approach, wires are easier to route than driveshafts, and AWD with torque vectoring becomes a lot simpler. And it seems like the nav system could tell the genset when to fire up based on the destination.

HeavyDuty

03-06-2024, 09:40 AM

I’ve often thought an inexpensive electric mini-truck (like a Kei truck) would be a useful additional vehicle for around the property - use it for grocery shopping and Home Depot runs, things where a limited range wouldn’t be an issue.

JohnO

03-06-2024, 03:13 PM

How's this for a Kick in the Pants to EV's?

https://evclubct.com/proposed-ct-bill-would-ban-ev-parking-indoors/#:~:text=The%20Connecticut%20General%20Assembly%20 has,to%20residential%20and%20commercial%20garages.

Proposed CT Bill Would Ban EV Parking Indoors
March 6, 2024

CGA SB 343

The Connecticut General Assembly has raised a bill, SB 343, that proposes to “prohibit parking electric vehicles in parking garages.” This applies to residential and commercial garages. It is part of a larger bill that is about fire safety more generally, which is possibly why the committee of cognizance is the Public Safety Committee and not the Transportation Committee. Regardless, as ridiculous as this sounds, the bill has been raised. Public hearings are scheduled for March 7.

RoyGBiv

03-06-2024, 03:34 PM

JohnO

03-06-2024, 03:43 PM

Schadenfreude

I have a friend (Sucker) who texted me this EV info last night. He is a new Tesla owner and rather upset. Is concerned about being able to go to the hospital for his appointments and park.

https://media.tenor.com/5vKnZA8IzwIAAAAM/ray-liotta-laughing.gif

Bucky

03-06-2024, 05:32 PM

How's this for a Kick in the Pants to EV's?

https://evclubct.com/proposed-ct-bill-would-ban-ev-parking-indoors/#:~:text=The%20Connecticut%20General%20Assembly%20 has,to%20residential%20and%20commercial%20garages.

Great! I was just telling a friend of mine that the honeymoon is over with my Tesla model three. I am not hating it, however, I am not enamored with it as I once was. Things that used to work, don’t work anymore. As a software developer, I understand that goes with the territory with over the air updates. They’re just not tested as well, because you could just roll out another update. If the recall required your car to come to be serviced, they would be much more frugal to make sure that the update worked. No plans to get rid of it, but not sure I do it again.

Now this. From day 1 it was on purpose that the Tesla goes in the detached garage and not the garage attached to the house.

Navin Johnson

03-06-2024, 06:18 PM

GJM

03-06-2024, 08:02 PM

One of the best things about Tesla is their charging network.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60097150/supercharger-access-for-non-tesla-evs-details/

4RNR

03-07-2024, 11:07 AM

I was always curious how charging was going to work in places line NYC where apartments are the main housing. Or any apartment complex for that matter. NYC is mostly underground parking or parking garages but here its mostly outside parking spots. Is each parking spot going to get a charger? Are people going to start unplugging their neighbors to plug their own in (longer cord)?

And another thing, apartments here are typically low income and while most people are live and let live and go about their lives, there is a subset of criminals and hooligans. Vandalizing the chargers seems like would be an obvious issue.

BehindBlueI's

03-07-2024, 08:22 PM

camel

03-07-2024, 09:20 PM

In the midwest, I'd figure copper scrap prices will directly correlate with missing charging cables and boxes.

It’s the new deflated tire without a spare or Jack. Just call someone. It will either be stolen and show up at a pawn shop. Or various things to do.

mmc45414

03-08-2024, 01:47 PM

In the midwest, I'd figure copper scrap prices will directly correlate with missing charging cables and boxes.
They always show glamours pictures of elegantly dressed people hooking up their chargers in the outdoor driveways of specular homes, presumably in gated communities...

0ddl0t

03-08-2024, 02:55 PM

As mentioned up thread (I am in EV nirvana land) Insurance companys are beginning to tell building owners no ev's do to fire concerns and not being easy to put out when the batteries think its July 4th

I also think many battery fires arn't covered much in the EV loving media

I think the opposite is true. We've had 120 years of fires from ICE vehicles and generally don't think twice about them. Did you know over 3,000 ICE Hyundai & Kias have spontaneously caught fire over the last ~decade (https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1202075844/kia-hyundai-recall-fire) (even when parked)? In the last year, tanker truck fires have destroyed bridges in Vermont, Connecticut, & Philadelphia.

The issue with battery fires is that we're using the equivalent of buckey brigades to fight them. We learned to do better than throw water on gas fires and we'll learn better ways to fight battery fires.

camel

03-08-2024, 07:59 PM

I think the opposite is true. We've had 120 years of fires from ICE vehicles and generally don't think twice about them. Did you know over 3,000 ICE Hyundai & Kias have spontaneously caught fire over the last ~decade (https://www.npr.org/2023/09/27/1202075844/kia-hyundai-recall-fire) (even when parked)? In the last year, tanker truck fires have destroyed bridges in Vermont, Connecticut, & Philadelphia.

The issue with battery fires is that we're using the equivalent of buckey brigades to fight them. We learned to do better than throw water on gas fires and we'll learn better ways to fight battery fires.

I would say it’s an issue with available materials that can and will kaboom when they want. There’s a reason fire safety standards are. But your not going to get the . Gov (especially a municipality)to adapt to demand of what they need to do to adequately fight these potentially dangerous and noxious emissions. That dangers all involved and even the tow truck driver that just takes the a car to a yard. It’s the new NIMBY.

JSGlock34

03-08-2024, 08:35 PM

Bucky

03-08-2024, 09:33 PM

Lots of EVs around here, but I've yet to see an EV fire. Seen a few ICE fires though; last one was in December. Was memorable as it was a squad car.

115949

Looking at the pile of dry leaves the car is parked on, it’s obvious this was due to faulty fuel injectors. :p

JSGlock34

03-08-2024, 10:42 PM

Looking at the pile of dry leaves the car is parked on, it’s obvious this was due to faulty fuel injectors. :p

https://y.yarn.co/835468a9-375a-466a-bacc-01a4763928b4_text.gif

Bucky

03-09-2024, 06:38 AM

https://y.yarn.co/835468a9-375a-466a-bacc-01a4763928b4_text.gif

LOL. I recently revisited that series and remember that. AJ was about to get it on with a young, pre NCIS Emily Wickersham.

GJM

03-09-2024, 06:45 AM

https://nypost.com/2024/03/09/us-news/angela-chao-made-panicked-call-before-dying-in-completely-submerged-tesla-on-texas-ranch/

Tesla submerges

Bucky

03-09-2024, 06:51 AM

https://nypost.com/2024/03/09/us-news/angela-chao-made-panicked-call-before-dying-in-completely-submerged-tesla-on-texas-ranch/

Tesla submerges

I wonder if she was unaware of the emergency door release? I know a lot of people aren’t, even owners of the cars.

My wife got stuck in the Vette one day, as I have walked away and struck up a conversation. Since I had the key fob, the electronic door lock wouldn’t work.

rdtompki

03-09-2024, 08:17 AM

Felicity Ace lawsuit claims fire started by Porsche EV battery | MGUY Australia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjz8Q68fJfE)

hufnagel

03-09-2024, 08:25 AM

wife was in cal (vandenberg AB) for business. co-worker had the option to rent a Polestar 2 for $50/day or a gas-hole for $200/day. Hotel was 60 miles from the base. Let's just say, they both got a demonstration of the reality of range anxiety and electric charging.

idahojess

03-09-2024, 12:46 PM

I wonder if she was unaware of the emergency door release? I know a lot of people aren’t, even owners of the cars.

My wife got stuck in the Vette one day, as I have walked away and struck up a conversation. Since I had the key fob, the electronic door lock wouldn’t work.

The WSJ article that is linked in the NY Post article is very good. One of things it states is that it is very difficult (if not impossible) to open a door in a submerged car (probably until the water pressure is equalized in the car, right?).

Many drivers mistakenly think that they should try to open their door if their car becomes immersed in water, said Gordon Giesbrecht, a senior scholar at University of Manitoba who studies vehicle-submersion deaths. Due to the pressure of the water, it would be nearly impossible to open a submerged car door.

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/angela-chao-death-texas-tesla-safety-c435daa0?mod=hp_lead_pos7

I do think that cars should have obvious door releases -- I'm not familiar with Teslas at all, but that should be something that doesn't take a manual to figure out.

camel

03-09-2024, 02:07 PM

The WSJ article that is linked in the NY Post article is very good. One of things it states is that it is very difficult (if not impossible) to open a door in a submerged car (probably until the water pressure is equalized in the car, right?).

Many drivers mistakenly think that they should try to open their door if their car becomes immersed in water, said Gordon Giesbrecht, a senior scholar at University of Manitoba who studies vehicle-submersion deaths. Due to the pressure of the water, it would be nearly impossible to open a submerged car door.

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/angela-chao-death-texas-tesla-safety-c435daa0?mod=hp_lead_pos7

I do think that cars should have obvious door releases -- I'm not familiar with Teslas at all, but that should be something that doesn't take a manual to figure out.

You are correct in that you are not going to able to open the door. Even with the pressure equalized you still have to push through the mass of the water in front of the door. Water is death when you are in a box. Best bet is to get a window open either through function or force and escape. It really doesn’t matter that it was an EV.