Issued Police Pistol Selection [Archive]

View Full Version : Issued Police Pistol Selection

KevH

02-21-2022, 03:27 AM

This is really long and without pictures. I apologize for that in advance.

I’ve written about issued police pistol selection in the past, but I don’t think it has ever been given its own thread. I figured now is a good time because of a PM conversation with another forum member earlier today and the fact I’m living through it right now at work (again).

If you have ever worked for a government bureaucracy and been part of a procurement process you’ll have a fair idea of how it works and how clunky it can be.

So why do police departments select the pistols they do?

Lineage

I’ll use my own department as an example…

Pre-1950 – Cops supplied their own revolvers and ammo
1950- We need to “professionalize” this department! Let’s issue pistols and all carry S&W M&P’s (pre-Model 10)
1960ish- We need better sights! Let’s issue S&W Combat Masterpieces (pre-Model 15), but if you want to carry a different revolver in 38 Special or 357 Magnum that’s ok too.
1970ish- You know what, 44 Magnum (Dirty Harry came out in 1971) and 45 Colt are cool too (S&W 15 still the issue gun). 1911’s are cool too and so are S&W Model 59’s.
1980- Somebody went to Gunsite. Let’s issue the Colt Series 70 45 ACP 1911.
1985- Ok, we’ve had enough AD’s in the station with these 1911’s. Also the military just switched to that Italian thing. We are going to issue the S&W 659.
1990- Captain Clueless AD’s a 1911 with a pinned grip safety in the men’s locker room bathroom hanging it by the trigger guard on the stall door hook. Emptied a mag into the locker room wall. Captain Clueless is the Chief’s buddy and it can’t be his fault right? Instant Chief knee jerk decision! Every officer from here on out will only carry the department issued S&W 659! No more 1911’s or revolvers allowed!
1995 – We ran out of S&W 659’s. We aren’t going to trade the old ones in, but we’ll buy a bunch of S&W 5906’s to add to inventory (they’re the same as a 659 right?). Lazy non-gun-guy sergeant on the phone: “Oh, you don’t have enough 5906’s for the order, but you do have some extra 5903’s? That sounds close enough. We’ll take both.” Senior guys who had been forced to give up their 1911’s and revolvers five years earlier are forced to carry old 659 boat anchors with crappy sights while newbs are issued lightweight 5903’s with tritium Novak sights causes an uproar (thanks lazy sergeant!).
1996- Tired of all the bitching, admin allows officers to carry personally owned 5906’s, 5903’s, 6906’s and Beretta 92’s because of the similar manual of arms.
1998- H&K USP’s are pretty similar in manual of arms to the S&W and Beretta right? Also North Hollywood so we should have 45 ACP. We’ll approve those. Bam…lots of USP 45’s come in-service. 40 S&W gets added as a caliber choice too.
1999- SIG Sauer’s get added to the list.
1999- One Captain discovers Glocks are neat. Boom, on the list.
2000- SWAT can carry 1911’s because they’re cool and SWAT is high speed.
2001- One sergeant trying to get promoted to Lt makes it his master’s degree project to upgrade all of our guns and somehow decides everyone needs to carry a S&W SW99 in 40 S&W, a gun that nobody wants (he didn’t even carry it).
2003- None of the SW99’s work quite right and by the end of the year there are only 3 officers out of 170 actually carrying them on duty. Academy recruits are actually given personal loans by other officers to buy a decent gun since no one considers them safe.
2004- Springfield XD’s are cool. Add those to the list.
2006- All of the original SW99’s go back to S&W and everyone is issued a new SW99. Nothing really changed. They’re still junk.
2007- S&W asks to take all our SW99’s back and replace them with new M&P 40’s. They also offer to pay for new duty gear. Basically, they want us to forget the SW99 ever existed. The new M&P 40 is issued which most like. After the transition not a single officer in the department is carrying a 9mm anymore.
2007- Guys coming off SWAT don’t want to give up their 1911’s. Bitching and moaning ensues. A “single action transition course” is created and suddenly 60% of the department is carrying a 45 ACP 1911 paid for with their own money (Kimber hell begins for me).
2012-Yours truly goes against the grain and is the first guy to carry a 9mm (Glock 17) in years. After years of trying, ToddG had convinced me, “This is the way.”
2016- FBI announces they’re switching to 9mm. A Captain decides we need to switch to a 9mm department issue gun. S&W has let it be known the M&P 2.0 is about to drop. Here is a conversation that actually happened:
Me: “Sir, we should wait a month and order the 2.0 9mm.”
Capt: “Does it take the same holster we use now?”
Me: “I’m not sure. Probably.”
Capt: “I don’t want to buy new holsters. Just order the one available now.”
2018- We purchase all new Safariland 6360 holsters and Surefire X300’s for everyone (if we’d only waited a month for those M&P 2.0’s).
2021- There are now only three officers carrying 40 S&W left in the department. No Berettas. One XD. Two H&K’s (a USP 45 and a VP9). Just a handful of 1911’s. It’s pretty much 40% Glock, 30% M&P, 20% P320 and Staccato P’s.
2022- The Chief goes and shoots a gun with an PMO with his buddy at another department on Saturday. On Monday, he tasks me with selecting a new gun, optic, and holster to issue everyone…and here we are.

Most departments have a similar pistol lineage made up of fads, poor choices and knee jerk decisions with a dash of common sense thrown in now and then.

Another local department decided in the late 1990’s that every officer would carry a SIG P220. That was fine when it was mostly large males, but then they started hiring little females (and little males) and some could not shoot the P220 worth a darn. The answer? Why issue them P245’s because those are smaller and damnit, we need magazine compatibility in case we’re tossing mags back and forth in a gunfight! Like that has every happened in an LE environment.

The Polar Opposites and the Happy Medium

When it comes to police pistol selection there are typically two very strong opinions, the middle ground, and then everyone else.

In Corner #1:
“Tactical Timmys” who are not armorers (and usually not firearms instructors) pushing for issuing the latest-greatest whatever that he thinks is the best. “I’d like a CZ Shadow 2 or a Glock 45 with a comp and custom-milled slide. No, wait…do Staccato XC’s for everyone! Dude, stock guns suck.”

In Corner #2:
“Captain Cautious” believes we should mandate only one gun for the entire department. It should be the plainest and safest gun possible to avoid all public scrutiny and potential liability.

The Middle Ground:
I would like a gun that has good factory support, everyone makes a holster for, is adaptable to as many hand sizes as possible, is very shootable, and that is easy for armorers and the end user to take care of.

Everyone Else:
Hey gun…who cares.

Compatibility

It matters what everyone else around you carries.

Police recruits go to academies with other agencies to get general firearms training. Right now locally the Glock, M&P, increasingly the P320 and the old SIG P226 rule. That’s what everyone in local academies carry. Throwing in a weird gun doesn’t do the firearms instruction cadre or the recruit any favors.

Send your officers to a regional training center for in-service that involves a FATS or Virtra simulator? Likely you’ll find a Glock, SIG or S&W simulator gun there.

SWAT officers go to SWAT schools. Lots of time they involve force-on-force and have loaner SIMS, UTM or red-guns guns available. Guess what guns they tend to have sitting around?

Need a part quick? Can I call a guy a couple cities over to bum it off them?

There are plenty of other examples, but generally what you find is that Glock, M&P and increasingly P320’s are what are around.

Can I Get a Holster or Support Gear?

During the 1990’s it was all about the Safariland SSIII (070). Sure, there were holsters offered by Bianchi, Uncle Mike’s, Ted Blocker and a few others, but it was all about the SSIII.

By the early 2000’s the Safariland SLS was a thing and there were smaller pistol mounted lights coming out, but the SSIII still dominated. Two things happened around 2006/2007. Surefire dropped the X200 and Streamlight dropped the TLR both of which made pistol lights practical and then Safariland released the ALS holster which held the light on the gun in the holster securely. Match made in heaven.

By mid-2010’s, the Safariland ALS was pretty much the only holster anyone in LE wanted. Then Safariland moved production to Mexico and some other stuff happened and they are finally seeing competition from Blackhawk, US Duty Gear and Alien Gear.

Take a look at Safariland, US Duty Gear, Blackhawk and Alien. They all make holsters for…wait for it…Glock, S&W M&P, and SIG P320.

With the exception of Alien, they also all make duty holsters for the Staccato P, but that’s a different class of gun in my opinion.

Want to carry a H&K VP9 OR? Good luck.
Beretta APX with optic? Not a chance.
CZ P10 with optic? Same deal.

Glock, S&W and SIG.

Do your guys do force-on-force with SIMS or UTM?

Glock, S&W and SIG.

Factory Support

If you’re an LE armorer, you get to know your LE factory rep the same way you know your dentist. They may call or send you a reminder about something now and then, which is both helpful and annoying. Every time you see them they tend to give you a goody-bag. You usually don’t call them until you need them, but when you do you want all their attention and you want it right now. Once they help you, you don’t need them anymore for awhile, but the experience leaves a certain taste in your mouth…hopefully it’s a good one.

Glock has always done a great job locally when it comes to their factory reps. It’s only been two guys in the past twenty years (which says something). Call him if you have an issue and he shows up. He’ll send you parts usually for free. He’ll help get your folks in classes (he doesn’t teach them, but he’s always around). He’ll grease the way to send guns back to the factory. All great things. During the Gen3 G22 fiasco I got annoyed with him, but he made up for it with other helpful things over time. He’s a true gun-guy who used to get excited by the 1911 I was carrying and want to talk about his safe full of 1911’s at home. Dealing with the Glock factory itself I’d give them an A-. Sometimes they’re super helpful, sometimes not quite as much which means I have to bug the rep to help me.

S&W is just as good, if not better, than Glock. Our rep here in Northern California was Dave Bowler, a true gun-guy, who was just promoted to head of LE sales. Beyond a great dude. I honestly think he knows more about the M&P and understands it more than most of S&W’s engineers. He teaches their armorer’s courses and is an all-around fantastic human being. His local replacement has only been there for a matter of months, but so far I’m impressed. The S&W factory is awesome. Call them, they e-mail you a shipping tag, you send the gun, and they send it back fixed in a couple weeks for free. They get an A+.

SIG had a great rep locally in the late 1990’s to mid-2000’s, but then we went through a revolving door of guys. The latest (who got it just weeks ago) is a just-retired SEAL. He’s very excited and responsive so we’ll see how it goes. Time will tell. Their head LE manager is also a retired SEAL so I have a feeling we’re going to see a trend. Their armorer’s courses are always taught by their SIG Academy guys separate from sales. It’s rare a sales guy shows up (that needs to change). The SIG factory went through a rough patch from 2008-2015 or so, but recently has been very responsive. I haven’t had to send much back to them, but the few times I have they’ve been quick. The current factory if you forced me to rate it I’d give an A- similar to Glock.

I recently dealt with FN’s rep. A very nice man and responsive, it’s pretty obvious he’s not a gun guy. He taught the armorer’s class, but wasn’t anywhere on the same level as Dave Bowler.

I won’t waste the time talking about H&K, Beretta, CZ or anyone else. It isn’t worth the time. They don’t seem interested in being players in my market. Maybe they’re better elsewhere in the country, but based on sales figures, I doubt it.

The factory rep world is pretty small and sometimes these guys go from company to company (Hey, didn’t you work for ___ before?). It’s a small world and the good ones don’t talk trash about the competition.

The sales side is usually handled by a regional distributor, typically an LE sales place. Companies like Glock make their distributors only carry their gun. Some of these guys are more willing to trash another company’s product. Take it with a grain of salt. They’re sales guys just like the folks at a dealership that want to sell you a car.

Sometimes there are very real problems.

The S&W SW99 was a piece of garbage. It never should have been made, S&W never should have sold it, and my department never should have bought it.

Ultimately, S&W admitted their mistake by replacing everything for free and tried to make the SW99 disappear from history.

The Gen3 Glock 22’s were beyond problematic. It’s a much longer story, but essentially once a metal WML was put on the gun it overworked the RSA and the gun no longer functioned reliably. Glock didn’t want to admit there was a problem and the claimed officers were “limpwristing” the gun. There was a lot of back and forth and they kept trying to come up with work-arounds (a new RSA, new mag springs, etc.). Nothing really worked besides taking the light off the gun and freshening up all the springs. The Gen4 G22 was supposed to correct it, but didn’t fully do that either. For LE the lesson was clear, 40 S&W + Glock = No good. Yet Glock sold millions of them.

Note: I’ve seen folks bring up bodyworn camera footage of officer involved shootings where officer’s guns malfunction. “See that! That gun isn’t reliable!” A lethal force encounter where a human being is shooting at, and being at shot at by, another human being is like no other experience. The human body experiences a rapid physiological change that no training scenario can produce. This typically causes the officer to induce malfunctions on his or her gun. It isn’t the gun’s fault and is very common. It has always been very common, but now that BWC is prevalent and being released to the public more, it is more visible. While it sounds counterintuitive, don’t judge the reliability of a gun based upon a malfunction seen in BWC.

So how does it work?

One of three things typically happen (there are other things that can as well depending on jurisdiction), but these are pretty common:

1) You have a gun you like with a company you like and you seek an upgrade. This is typically super easy. Call the factory rep and tell him you want to upgrade and ask for a quote. Usually they’ll give you a factory quote that is too expensive and then they’ll prompt a distributor to give you a better one and then maybe another police supply place so you armed with three quotes (hey, a bidding process just happened, neat). You get whatever finance approval you need to get things going and get a purchase order cut, you get your new guns, you transition your new guns to your officers (typically and hopefully at a range day to let them shoot it and work the kinks out and qualify), you send in the old guns (with an option for individual officer purchase if you are wise), and then you’re done. Easy peasy.
2) You don’t care for your current gun or you want to keep options open and are just curious. You can do a RFP (Request For Proposal) process inviting manufacturers to come to you. If you’re big enough and going to spend enough money, you spec what you want and companies compete for your business. You do whatever evaluation and get it down to three options that are acceptable and then you let the three bid. The low bid typically wins (typically, there are ways around it).
3) You don’t care for your current gun or you want to keep options open and are just curious. You evaluate different guns on the down-low and pick the one you want. You find a sole-source justification to purchase the one you want. You get whatever finance approval you need to get things going and get a purchase order cut, you get your new guns, you transition your new guns to your officers (typically and hopefully at a range day to let them shoot it and work the kinks out and qualify), you send in the old guns (with an option for individual officer purchase if you are wise), and then you’re done.

Fun Fact: There is much ado being made about the FN 509 being selected by LAPD. They essentially used the process described in #2. FN is selling the guns to LAPD for well under $200 per gun (you can look up and see what a 509 usually costs). FN is relying on notoriety of that contract getting them more contracts and selling more guns for them. I don’t blame them and the 509 isn’t a horrible gun.

But as a normal consumer, should you buy an FN 509 because LAPD did?

…I know some people will do just that (paying full retail of course).

So why do departments switch platforms?

Here are some common reasons:
- Just wanted something new and different- You drove a Ford for five years and you want to try a Toyota just because - You would be shocked how common this is.
- Lack of confidence in the product - Think FNS and Arizona DPS
- Bad taste left by a sales rep/factory – Heck that guy
- You get a new Chief from a different department and he prefers a particular gun
- Some Lt needs a project for a master’s degree – Seen that one
- The Capt that picked the current gun just retired and we hated him so let’s pick something else just to spite him (like he cares since he’s retired) – Seen that one locally
- Our firearms program sucks and we don’t qual enough and we think this new whiz-bang gun will magically make all of our officers that shoot 50 rounds one time a year become dead eye shots rather than fix our suck program.
- The guys that were in charge of the firearms program for the past fifteen years were all one year away from retirement each time they were picked. Our guns have been totally neglected and never upgraded. A new guy is put in charge and suddenly it’s the guns fault – Seen that multiple times locally as well.
- The Glock guy that has carried a Glock forever is finally in charge of the program so he can dump the gun that everyone else likes and pick his favorite Glock and force everyone else to carry it.
- This one officer’s gun this one time broke (never mind his striker channel was packed full of lube because he thought the weep hole on the bottom of the slide was where you squirt lube)…and he told this other officer…who told this other officer…who told this other officer. Now there is no confidence and we need a new gun. The police officer union demands the department do something! -Seen it happen.
- Our guns are worn out and we need something new. What’s cheapest?

Do these seem like valid reasons that should influence what gun you as a consumer purchase or form an opinion about a gun?

What about you Kev?

I’m looking right now essentially at three options for my department and conducting a T&E process.

Option 1: Glock 45 factory milled for an Acro P-2
Option 2: S&W M&P 2.0 factory milled for an Acro P-2
Option 3: SIG P320 Carry with Romeo2

Here’s the logic on the optic:
- My city balked at purchasing UAV’s made in China so I doubt Holosun is a good option.
- I don’t want to deal with changing RMR batteries in 180 guns and the SRO isn’t general issue cop-proof. The Delta Point Pro sucks and the EOTech isn’t even available yet.
- I want something cop proof. Most of our people won’t take care for an open emitter PMO so closed emitter seems like a good option.

I really love the support S&W has given us over the years, but all three options are really good. It will probably come down to price and trade-in value.

Ultimately, if you don’t like what I pick continue carrying your own gun or go buy what you want!

The Lesson

Don’t get caught up in “this police department carries this” or “this department dumped this gun.” I commonly hear, “I talked to this one cop and he said…”

Look at overall trends. If most departments carry a Glock, SIG or S&W it’s for a reason, but ultimately evaluate what you need and what will work best for you.

Don’t bash a platform because your local PD dumped it. Who know? Maybe a Lt just needed a master’s degree project.

gtmtnbiker98

02-21-2022, 04:54 AM

We just updated our issued sidearms last month. Our new issue is the Glock 45 MOS, C&H plates, Holosun 509T x2, and TLR7a’s. So far so good, coming from the P320 Carry 9mm.

Sammy1

02-21-2022, 07:06 AM

Don't forget saving money and being able to train more arguments. I was part of getting rid of shotguns so we'd have more time and money on the rifles. Didn't seem to pan out, we just got rid of the shotguns. We switched from 357 Sig to 40 S&W in 2012, cheaper ammo so more $ for ammo. It went the opposite way. Same with going to 9mm recently, no more ammo even though 9mm is cheaper.

BehindBlueI's

02-21-2022, 07:39 AM

Seems so much more complicated than our four component selection process. A pistol must answer 'yes' to the following for questions:

1) Is it a Glock?
2) Is it the newest generation available?
3) Is it the 'duty size' version?
4) Is it in today's most commonly accepted duty caliber?

We've made such wild leaps as Gen 2 Glock 22s to Gen 3 Glock 22s then (and you may want to sit down for this) to Gen 4 Glock 22s. Wild, right? The only exception to issued guns in the past 20+ years to the above rule is detectives/plain clothes used to have the option of having the compact pistol issued instead, but that stopped with the Gen 3s I think, definitely by the time we went to Gen 4s. The closest thing to a revolution since the adoption of Glocks was going to 9mm.

Shotgun selection has been equally complicated.

1) Is it a Remington 870? Yes = selected.

We are the poster child for 'pick something and stick with it.'

CraigS

02-21-2022, 08:22 AM

Talked to my SIL last Saturday and asked how his department's change from .40 to 9 was going. They are going from a .40 G to a 9 G mos. They are not going to supply officers w/ dots but the ability to do so in the future, or for officers to use their own, was an important consideration. So here are the reasons why they didn't even consider any other brand.
- same holster
- same mag carrier
- minimal need for training
- the new gun comes w/ 3 mags
- I didn't bother to remember the exact figures but, w/ trade in on the old guns, the new guns will cost them just under $200each.

Lon

02-21-2022, 08:55 AM

Here’s how our process has gone since 1994:

- 1994 - let’s transition to autos. Lt. X - “I like Sig” so we went with The Sig P226. What about those with small hands? Easy - P228. Gotta have the ability to interchange mags, ya know. Detectives? P230 if they want.

- 2004 - Lt. X, now Chief, comes back from CALEA conference and tells us, “hey, I bought us new rail model Sigs” 226 and 229 cuz we can’t forget about the people w small hands. And we can still interchange mags.

- 2006ish - (I’m now a firearms instructor) Hey Chief, we have some Officers who really struggle with the Sig because small hands and the 229 really isn’t any smaller in the dimensions we need to look at. I let them shoot my G19 and they passed state quals w flying colors. Can we buy them Glocks? Yes. Buys a half dozen Officers G17 or G19.

- 2013 - it’s time to get new guns Chief, can we sit down and talk? Sure. I lay out arguments for transitioning to Glock or M&P. I also inform Chief that the Sig of today is not the same Sig company from ‘94 and ‘04. They’ve got quality control issues. That’s ok, we’ve never had problems so let’s buy new 226/229 and Glocks for the small handed people.

- 2014 - new Sigs come in and shockingly, we have a bunch of issues with out of spec parts. So much so that our Sig rep had to bring the special tool needed to fix one of the problems (we had others) to the PD so that he could replace a pressed in pin on all our guns.

- 2020 - conversation w Capt Z who says we’re gonna need to buy some new guns for these new hires since we’re running out of extras. I chime in (being a smart ass) and say no we don’t. Just get the Chief to let those of us who want to carry our personal Glocks to do so and we can turn our Sigs in. To my surprise the Chief says yes. He also authorizes red dots for general use (previously it required special permission and I was the only one running one).

- 2021 - time to buy new guns. I suggest we give everyone options, all of which are optic ready. My recommendations are the Glock and M&P of various flavors. Chief makes us add a Sig option because he likes Sig (but carries a Shield most of the time). So we let people test fire and choose between G19.5MOS, G17.5MOS, Sig 320 full size and carry models and the M&P 2.0. Everyone is issued a Safariland optic ready holster. Optics are allowed (507/508/509/RMR w CHPWS plates only), but they must be purchased by the Officer. After months of waiting for guns, everyone has transitioned to new guns.

02-21-2022, 09:44 AM

- 2021 - time to buy new guns. I suggest we give everyone options, all of which are optic ready. My recommendations are the Glock and M&P of various flavors. Chief makes us add a Sig option because he likes Sig (but carries a Shield most of the time). So we let people test fire and choose between G19.5MOS, G17.5MOS, Sig 320 full size and carry models and the M&P 2.0. Everyone is issued a Safariland optic ready holster. Optics are allowed (507/508/509/RMR w CHPWS plates only), but they must be purchased by the Officer. After months of waiting for guns, everyone has transitioned to new guns.

Lon, was there any configuration chosen in greater numbers, or did it just blend few of these couple of these, ect?

TheNewbie

02-21-2022, 10:00 AM

mmc45414

02-21-2022, 10:01 AM

So we let people test fire and choose between G19.5MOS, G17.5MOS, Sig 320 full size and carry models and the M&P 2.0.

Lon, was there any configuration chosen in greater numbers, or did it just blend few of these couple of these, ect?
Just because I am a curious fan boy, what was the M&P take rate?

WobblyPossum

02-21-2022, 10:01 AM

I started at my agency right after they transitioned from the P229 DAK in .40 S&W to a variant of the P320 Carry in 9mm. When I got to the academy, the class that was just about to graduate had been issued the P229s and everyone who came in after them was getting the P320s. The agency also maintained a few S&W J-frames and some old Gen 3 G26s for agents who wanted an agency issued BUG or a small gun for undercover work.

We had an agency authorized Personally Owned Weapon (POW) list that included 9mm Glock double stacks in Gen 3 and Gen 4, Glock 43s, POW versions of the issued P320 in the three basic size configurations, the Sig P365, .40 S&W Sig P229 and P239 DAKs, .40 S&W HK P2000s, and S&W J-frames in .38 or .357. The authorized long guns, only agency owned and issued with no POW option, were HK MP5s, M4 carbines, and 14” Remington 870s.

About a year later, the agency pulled all the agency owned J-frames and de-authorized POW J-frames and the .40 S&W guns as the transition to the P320 was completed. The ancient HK MP5 sub guns and Remington 870 SBS’ were all pulled from the field too. The agency started fielding Sig MPXs in small numbers to augment the ARs. This simplified what the firearms unit folks had to deal with. People asked for additional small gun options and the agency tested the G48, G43X, Sig P365XL, and apparently retested the G43. The G43 did so badly that new guns would not be authorized and previously authorized POWs would be grandfathered. The Sig P365XL was authorized.

The agency was testing out the idea of allowing and issuing MRDS for handguns during this time. Testing went well and a pilot program was instituted for the SWAT team guys. That phase has ended and optics are now authorized for everyone with the option for agency issued P320 optic ready slides with issued Sig Romeo 1 Pro optics. POW users can buy the optics ready versions of authorized guns or have their guns milled for the authorized optics (Trijicon RMR Type 2, Sig Romeo 1 Pro, and Sig Romeo Zero for the P365 guns) and refinished. There’s a transition course required prior to being authorized to carry with a MRDS. Gen 5 Glocks have now been authorized as well. The current POW list consists of 9mm double stack Glocks in Gens 3, 4, and 5 and their corresponding MOS versions, Sig P320s of various sizes from a list of approved SKUs, and some of the Sig P365 series (P365, P365X, P365XL but no SAS or anything with porting or slide lightening cuts).

I just picked up a Gen5 G19 MOS so I can do the MRDS thing once I take the transition class. I’m hoping additional optics will be approved, specifically some of the closed emitter options. Meanwhile, I’ll probably grab a 6.5 MOA RMR.

Lon

02-21-2022, 10:10 AM

I like the idea of a general issue weapon with a well thought out POW list for those who want to have an option that is better for them. Besides, the only way us TDA guys are going to get go carry our weapons is if there is a POW list. :p

Agreed. If I was making a unilateral decision I would have added a POW option to a (shorter) list of issued weapons.

Lon

02-21-2022, 10:11 AM

JonInWA

02-21-2022, 10:13 AM

KevH, excellent boots-on (or in) the ground report. Many thanks. Deserves to be stickied.

Best, Jon

Lon

02-21-2022, 10:13 AM

Just because I am a curious fan boy, what was the M&P take rate?

M&P was the smallest group - only 6 or 7 out of 46. If we had done this prior to me carrying a personal Glock I would have gone M&P. But I have way too much $$$ invested in Glock stuff at this point and it serves me well.

Texaspoff

02-21-2022, 10:17 AM

My department, and the majority of agencies here in Texas allow officer to carry their own duty weapon from a list, or within reason.

Back in 2014 our chief at the time wanted to move toward department weapons, and I was in charge of setting up the process. This particular chief was a sig guy as well so you can see where that was going to go. I have nothing against Sigs started my career with them and carry a 320Pro now, but based our departments personnel, experience, OIS's, training and cost, I didn't believe dept issue weapons wasn't a good idea.

The OP has a good point, in that quite often a new duty weapon is picked simply because someone who really doesn't have a dog in the hunt decides they want the newest shiniest toy that year.

Purchasing a weapon just because XXX Department uses it isn't always the most educated decision.

FWIW our current Chief, who came form a very large agency that issued duty weapons, carries a 1911... :) And yes, he can shoot it, very well. Things are good here in Texas

TXPO

jlw

02-21-2022, 10:20 AM

For the mother ship:

Founded in late 1960s- All personnel are issued surplus U.S. Navy surplus Victory models that have been nickeled

Eventually, those revolvers are replaced with S&W 64s.

1994-ish: A committee of officers selects the S&W 4006.

2003-ish: New 4006s are purchased. (Money for new pistols but not enough to buy all new support gear)

2006: S&W discontinues the third generation autos in favor of the M&P. We needed to buy additional pistols due to agency growth. The chief wanted everyone in the same pistol; so, we did an eval of the M&P but switched to Gen3 Glock 22s. (already had .40 ammo)

2015: Long after I was gone, the agency switched to Gen4 Glock 22s as the decision maker didn't want to switch calibers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Current agency:

Pre-1993: Deputies provided their own firearms. The sheriff who came into office in 1993 at some point wanted standardization and bought everyone Gen2 G23s. At some point, a few Gen3s were purchased.

Also, at some point prior to 2009, the agency purchased Kimber TLE/RL IIs. These pistols actually ran very well.

2008: The agency upgrades to Gen3s. The guy in charge of the purchase went to the existing personnel and asked if they wanted 22s or 23s and ordered 22s for those who requested them.

This created a headache on multiple levels. I was with the agency by the time the purchased pistols arrived. As they are being issued, some people who didn't request 22s are griping because they didn't get a 22. Some who had ordered 22s had left, and posturing begins on who will get the available 22s. Whenever someone leaves who has a 22, there is a scramble over who will get their 22.

2009: I am appointed as chief deputy. I don't respond well to the griping and posturing. I make no attempt to disguise my displeasure.

I approved any personally owned Glock in OEM condition (sights could be changed). I also approved 1911s for all personnel with anything other than sight changes requiring specific approval. We already had 9mm, .40 SW, and .45 ACP ammo in stock.

Also, Shields were purchased for a few small-handed female deputies if they so chose (G48, Sig 365 weren't available then). One of those deputies later was approved to transition to a M&P 9 2.0.

As a result of the above paragraph, some of the deputies engage in "gun of the month" activities. Several of our more prolific shooters adopted 1911s. So, I went heavy on .45 ACP ammo. Then they went to a SWAT school, noticed how often they had to reload, came home, and bought G34s. This really, really made ammo problematic for that year because I had ordered .45 ACP for them, not 9mm.

Mid 20-teens: Fed up with the above, I made the Gen4 G17 the standard issue pistol and began purchasing only 9mm pistol ammo. Personnel could still carry other things, but they had to provide ammo if they chose another caliber.

2021: A new sheriff takes office. I move to training full time. The new sheriff is not a Glock guy. The next time we have to buy new pistols, I would not be shocked to see us go to Sigs, but I wouldn't be shocked to see us stay with Glocks either.

Glocks, Sigs, and M&Ps are approved as are RMR dots.

--------------------------------------------------------

After all of the above, if I ever run an agency again, and I can't imagine my ever doing so, as much as I dislike one size fits all, I will not go down the headache path again.

HCM

02-21-2022, 11:10 AM

MD7305

02-21-2022, 11:53 AM

I went through this a decade ago at my previous department when the Chief asked me to begin a process to replace our 14 year old Sig 229 .40s. The parameters I was given were no SAO (1911), had to be DAO or striker fired, and stay with .40 caliber. He liked XDs but wasn't much of a gun guy. Our guns were issued only, no personally owned guns were permitted.

To me, at that time in 2012, the Glock Gen.4 or M&P40 seemed to be the obvious choice and I would've been happy with either. Glock's rep was very accommodating and helpful. S&W's rep wouldn't return calls and never even sent a T&E gun as requested ultimately costing them the sale. H&K's rep was totally uninterested when I told them the number of guns (35) we were planning to order. Sig's rep was very helpful but being limited to DAKs per the Chief's parameters was not helpful. Too bad the P320 hadn't been conceived yet.

Half way though the selection I'm told the selected gun has to be factory two toned with a silver slide, you know, so our badge laser etched on the slide will show up better. It was a constant battle over stuff like that. After everything was said and done we ended up with Glock 22 Gen.4s. Did I mention the Chief HATED Glocks? But after shooting them and having the data, officer preference and performance showing it was the best choice the Chief did the right thing and approved the Glock as being the new gun.

My current department carries M&P9 M2.0s. From what I'm told, the previous Chief was a huge S&W fan and that was the driving force in switch from Glocks to S&W several years ago, before I worked there. In 2019 we switched from M&P40s for the M2.0 in 9mm, at minimal cost, which I think was a good decision. Now, with a new Chief, it's unknown what will influence the next duty gun but if I have any involvement with it I hope RDS or RDS capability is a factor.

CraigS

02-21-2022, 11:54 AM

That is a good point that I hadn't thought of when talking to him. But at least they have the gun that is ready. I know my SIL really likes dots so I am sure he will keep on pushing.

mmc45414

02-21-2022, 12:00 PM

M&P was the smallest group - only 6 or 7 out of 46. If we had done this prior to me carrying a personal Glock I would have gone M&P. But I have way too much $$$ invested in Glock stuff at this point and it serves me well.
I do find this rather interesting that a group of almost fifty folks got to touch and feel and shoot three options, was there any consistent feedback from those that chose them?

Just being a schumk I can pick anything I want and truly like them, but if I didn't also have $$$ invested I might be 320 curious. As it is I just bought another M&P and am tracking another on GB... :cool:

Lon

02-21-2022, 12:16 PM

I do find this rather interesting that a group of almost fifty folks got to touch and feel and shoot three options, was there any consistent feedback from those that chose them?

Not really. Only about 1/3 of that group are what I would consider to be “gun people” who actually have a clue and could clearly articulate something beyond “I shot it better” or “it feels good in my hand”. Those who chose the M&P didn’t like the Glock angle and most didn’t trust Sig anymore after the issues we experienced, not to mention the whole 320 debacle.

DaBigBR

02-21-2022, 12:32 PM

Great post and thread.

My first agency was very small. I got there in 2003 as a reserve. Full-time guys were issued Glock 35s because the chief at the time thought they looked cool. Part time and reserves could carry about anything. The PD obtained some old Gen 2 Glock 19s from Phoenix PD's property room. This was a program they had at the time. I carried one of these and eventually bought it. I literally carried a street gun as a cop. I've always wondered what its history is. We also had to provide all of our own ammo. It was nuts.

We ended up with a new chief a year after I started and I took a full-time spot and ended up being a firearms instructor. Chief was a gun guy and got us money for ammo and stuff. We eventually sold all of the pistols the PD owned and instituted a "bring your own" policy. By the time we sold them, we only had a couple being carried and we saw it as a logistics and liability issue to have them sitting on a shelf. I carried about everything while I was there, but mostly a 1911 or Glock 23 based on time.

Current PD is a bigger shop (74 sworn). Through working around it and at it and talking to old timers, I've got a pretty decent handle on the history.

Issued semi-autos came in around 1991 or so with the Beretta 92. Practice and training ammo was Fiocchi JHP of unknown weight. The 92s were exchanged for 96s after just a few years. I do not know what the ammo was. This lasted until 2001 or so when we went to Glock 22s. Holsters for the 22s were a knockoff of the Safariland 070 from a company whose name escapes me. Some lefties got 070s as they were more available.

The first round of Glocks were replaced in 2009 with RTF2 G22s. We essentially just missed the availability of Gen 4 guns. We also got AWFUL Blackhawk Xiphos lights and the accompanying holster. We probably had all of those lights replaced two times. I was not at the department yet and the guy that picked them did not know any better. We are just the right size department to sometimes not have a true SME in place to prevent shit like this. Ammo by this point was 180 grain Lawman for training and 180 grain HST for duty.

I landed here in 2011. I came from the Wild West of gun policies and landed in a "our gun, our holster, our light" place. it had been that way as far back as anybody could remember. I started pushing for change shortly after I got involved in the firearms program and eventually got some support at least among the cadre. We switched to 175 grain Critical Duty because somebody went to a demo and we had shot a guy five or six times and not killed him with HST. Never mind the issues with shot placement.

Somewhere around 2015 the talk of new guns came up. We wanted to get samples from various manufacturers and let officers shoot them and see what they liked. We really wanted to at least explore caliber options. Our chief quickly shot that down. "We're buying guns and not holsters, so we're buying Glocks." Then we pivoted to 9mm. The Chief had a buddy that was a Chief somewhere and they just bought .40s, so that's what we did. Nobody supported it. Chief's baby. The new guns offered very little the old ones did not (our Gen 3s worked fine with the garbage lights, probably because they were plastic trash).

As Chiefs do, he left a year later. We got a new chief that we generally liked. We had a kid that was never going to pass the academy with a Glock 22 and they bought him a 17. About 1/3 of the department made jokes about it and about 1/3 of the department wanted a 17 also (including the entire firearms cadre). We wrote up a personally owned 9mm proposal and felt very good about it. It died at a Captain who was "not a fan." That captain retired and we revised and sent it up again. To our surprise, the chief shot it down. "The department should own the guns." Proposed letting officers pay their own money to "upgrade" their department gun, which the PD would own...shot down.

That chief left and we ended up with another chief that we generally thought was a gun guy and would support us. Wrote it up, had a meeting with him and just asked what he needed to hear to back us and he said he didn't need to hear anything. Just like that, personally owned guns (limited to 9mm Glocks) and optics are authorized. Currently have about 25% of the department switched over with classes hopefully occurring this Spring to double that. Suddenly the guys are interested in improving their skills and literally all it took was letting them spend their own money.

TC215

02-21-2022, 12:36 PM

Old department:

Late 70’s/80’s— S&W Model 64

Late 80’s— S&W 681 (briefly)

1990 or so— Switch to 9mm Ruger P89’s (and maybe other Rugers? SWAT had a model with a built-in laser). Lots of problems with these, probably due to lack of maintenance. CID was issued some model of .40 cal Berettas during this time. I believe they were Cougars.

2000- Switch to H&K USP .45’s and USP .45 Compacts. This is what I was issued when I started. Glock was the favorite during testing, but the Chief said, “Why would you want a Honda when you could have a Cadillac?” I’m told the switch to .45 was because of a shooting with the Rugers where the 9mm didn’t perform well. I never really bought that because they guy was hit in the shoulder with the 9mm and in the back with 00 buck and nearly the exact same time. The 00 buck did its job instantly. We had several several shootings with the USP’s and they always performed fine.

2012– New USP’s and USP Compacts (same Chief…Honda vs. Cadillac). I at least wanted the updated HK45’s and HK45 Compacts, but we stuck with the USP’s. Almost immediately after the switch, a dealer offered us two Glocks (duty gun and BUG) for each H&K, and they would include new leather. Chief said no.

2014- SWAT switched to Sig 1911’s, because we were too cool to carry the same gun as everyone else.

2016- New Chief approved the switch to Glock 21’s and Glock 30’s. We pushed for 9mm’s, but we were shut down by a major who didn’t want to go through the trouble of swapping out the ammunition stockpile.
__________________________________________________ ____

Current agency:

Early 80’s— 2.5” S&W 66’s

Mid-80’s— Switch to snub-nose Rugers. Security Sixes, maybe? Also had a variety of j-frame BUG’s.

Late 80’s/Early 90’s— Switch to Glock 19’s. Walther PPK and the Sig PPK look-alike in .380 for BUG’s.

Mid to late 90’s— Switch to Glock 23’s. A shooting with a G19 that they apparently weren’t happy with led to the switch to .40’s. The .380 BUG’s were switched to G27’s after a shooting where a guy soaked up several rounds.

2018?— Switch to 19M’s and 43 BUG’s. Because FBI. POW 9mm Glocks (any model as long as it’s a 9mm) are authorized, with or without optics.

gtmtnbiker98

02-21-2022, 12:46 PM

M&P was the smallest group - only 6 or 7 out of 46. If we had done this prior to me carrying a personal Glock I would have gone M&P. But I have way too much $$$ invested in Glock stuff at this point and it serves me well.

I gave my people two choices, G19 or G45 and only one would be purchased for all. They overwhelmingly selected the G45. From a logistical standpoint, I simply refused to have that many choices. We all have the same gun, light, optic, and holster. Makes life a lot easier when maintaining parts and most importantly, batteries.

Since I failed to mention our lineage, I'll provide:

1997 - We were issued the SIG P226
2004 - SIG rep talked the "then" Chief in to adopting the SIG P229 DAK, chambered in .357 SIG. Despite my telling the Chief that the .357 SIG would be expensive to maintain and short lived, he fell for the sales pitch.
2006 - I purchased .40 S&W conversion barrels for the P229 DAK's, the ole "I told you so" wasn't repeated enough.
2012 - HK P30 LEM, because we thought the LEM was a good answer to a non-existent problem. Guns ran well, officers struggled with the LEM.
2015 - SIG P320 Carry 9mm, guns performed very well, and I made the decision to migrate away from SIG and to provide a better upgrade track to pistol RDS.
2021/2022 - Glock 45 MOS adoption, equipped with C&H Precision 509T plates and C&H "low witness" backup irons, Holosun 509T x2, and TLR7a's. Issued holster is the Safariland 7360RDS.

AMC

02-21-2022, 02:00 PM

KevH.......Get outta my head, man!

TGS

02-21-2022, 02:02 PM

1916-1986: "BYOB".

1986-1993: We are now a "Service" and will issue the S&W Model 19-5.

1993-2016: Like most federal agencies in the 90s, SIGs were the gold standard. We bought P228s. We also bought SP101s under the justification of being UC guns, and from what I saw were carried by management who wanted to sign them out to themselves instead of carrying the SIG. When the P228 ended production, we bought P229s and then P229Rs. You only had the previous pistol replaced if you opted to or it needed replacement (as in, we didn't make everyone turn in their P228s for P229s, you just got the currently produced pistol as needed).

2010: Addition of personally owned weapons policy for off-duty and BUG use. No testing that I know of, just the chosen preferences of those on the firearms board. M&P Compact, Kahr PM9 and P9, Glock 19, Glock 26, and SIG P239.

2016: Selection of Glock 19M following FBI testing and a realization that we couldn't keep buying SIGs due to the frame change (incompatible mags/holsters) and QC problems. We could buy the two Glocks for the price of one SIG, and management had forgotten to add the POW policy for sign off by the US AG at one point (all federal LE agencies firearms policies require concurrence from US AG); so management thought the best thing to do was to rescind the POW policy and issue everyone two Glocks, a 19M and a 26. From a systems perspective this makes sense since most agents like the 26.

2018: Guns finally get issued after some kerfuffle with boomers who don't like change. We also made an addition to the firearms policy that now states something to the effect of, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to restrict an agent's ability to carry a personally owned firearm as a private citizen with a concealed weapon's permit or as a qualified law enforcement officer", which unlike some other federal agencies gives us protection to carry whatever we want under the auspices of LEOSA. The policy is still very strict that when on duty you may only carry the issued firearms.

I imagine we'll stay with the Glocks until a technological breakthrough. For whatever reason, federal LE agencies don't seem to have the impulsive and capricious firearms purchasing decisions that is seen at the state/local level.

KevH

02-21-2022, 02:10 PM

KevH.......Get outta my head, man!

Dude, I still want the really skinny on the S&W M58's with the jeweler-engraved "SFPD" under the cylinder latch.

I'm sure there is a unique story behind those guns.

Vista461

02-21-2022, 02:22 PM

My old Dept when I started had Gen 3 G22 RTF2’s

Upgraded to Gen4 G22’s (I bought my Gen3 since it was my first issued gun) in around 2014-5.

Unlike others, we never had issues with lights on either one, we issued Surfires and TLR1’s.

Went full time at my current dept in 2017, we carry personally owned pistols. Just basically has to be a good, reliable gun in 9 or 40.

We’re a mixture of Sig P320, M&P, Glock, H&K and me with Beretta 92A1 (until I go M&P at next qual, which would’ve happened already had I not had the Vid during our last qual,LOL) . Mostly 9mm, with a couple 40’s. Works good for us because people get to choose something they shoot well. We’re small and over half our people are part time.

I did work part time at a Sheriff’s Department for a couple of years and we had personally owned guns but they had to be Glock 9mm. So having to buy that plus uniform, ate up most of what I made there during the summer.

I wouldn’t mind an issued gun again if it was something I liked and shot decently. Only downside is most of what I carry now has a similar grip angle (M&P, Shields, B92), so if I had to go to a Glock, I’d probably end up switching to all Glock since I would want same or close grip angle.

AMC

02-21-2022, 02:32 PM

Just to add to KevH's list......then you have the saboteurs. The ones who just want to delay or block things because it wasn't their idea, or because their cults favorite gun (looking at you, HK VP9 fanbois) was not selected. Or because they have 2 pieces of the 20 piece puzzle in their possession, which leads them to believe that everything you are deciding is wrong.

Agency culture, and agency history, for better or worse can have a huge effect on this. When I entered the PD in 1991, we were issued S&W Model 28s. After probation you had a choice of 9mm or .45 handguns from Sig, Beretta, Smith&Wesson, Glock or Ruger. In 1994, there was a horrific gunbattle between a heavily armed and armored nutjob and pretty much the entire on duty department. Over 1100 rounds fired. Our rifle-armed Specialist Team did not at that time carry their rifles on patrol, but kept them in special lockers at the district stations. This basically eliminated police rifles from consideration against a rifle armed suspect. One officer was killed and another plus a paramedic were wounded during the 30 minute battle. Our departments takeaway from this was not that we needed rifles, but that everyone must carry the same handgun so we could share magazines in the next 1100 round pistol fight we engaged in. This incident left a serious mental scar on our department, that persists to this day. I have command level officers who were not even in the department until almost 10 years after this incident tell me "But the Pine & Franklin shootout!" whenever I bring up the idea of POWs. Even when I point out that we have hundreds of patrol rifles out there....and that incident would be over pretty quick today as a result.

We are going with the Sig P320 Pro Fullsize for most officers, though there will likely be some Carry models issued for investigations folks, along with a TLR7A, as opposed to the fullsize light for patrol. Ad KevH mentioned....the holster thing is a HUGE part of this equation. No one maker produces all of the things we need (both duty and low-pro plainclothes holsters for both fullsize and Carry size guns with both fullsize and TLR7 lights....WITH A REMOTE SWITCH CAPABILITY). We've been working with different holster and light manufacturers for the last 2 years trying to come up with solutions. Some have been helpful....and then there's 'SoSorryLand'. You'll take what they give you, and be happy with it. Oh...and here's why you're wrong about what you want! Oh....and they're recalling their holsters for guns with the TLR7 series lights. So Sorry!

Of course, during this process, when command won't let you buy 9mm ammo to test the T&E guns because "We don't issue 9mms yet", there are manufacturer issues, Covid delays, product recalls, your request memos disappear into the black hole on a Commanders desk, etc......all the department "gun guys" (read: guys who read Combat handguns and buy every goofy new gun on the market but can't shoot their duty gun for shit) are bitching that the Range Staff don't know what they're doing and "Are we there yet?"

KevH.....I feel your pain.

AMC

02-21-2022, 02:41 PM

Dude, I still want the really skinny on the S&W M58's with the jeweler-engraved "SFPD" under the cylinder latch.

I'm sure there is a unique story behind those guns.

It was another time, another place. I'm having breakfast with Rod Nakanishi this week, to celebrate my fast approaching promotion to private citizen. I'll pick his brain to see what extra details he might have.

RJflyer

02-21-2022, 02:42 PM

Old PD: West German P226s -> M&P40s -> G17.4 -> G45 (Generous POW policy as well)

Current agency: S&W revolvers -> USGI M1911s with custom chopped slides -> P228s (M11) -> Generous POW policy while we wait for an M11 replacement

KevH

02-21-2022, 03:48 PM

It was another time, another place. I'm having breakfast with Rod Nakanishi this week, to celebrate my fast approaching promotion to private citizen. I'll pick his brain to see what extra details he might have.

If he doesn't know the story then it may be lost to antiquity!

Sammy1

02-21-2022, 04:18 PM

Lon

02-21-2022, 04:27 PM

I noticed many of you speaking of POW. We ran into accreditation review problems with our off duty gun policy as we weren't certified armorers in every make/model we allowed. Does your agencies have you go through armorer school for every weapon authorized?

That sounds like a misinterpretation of CALEA standards. There’s nothing that says you have to have an armorer for every weapon used. Here’s the actual standard from CALEA:

o A written directive requires that only weapons and ammunition authorized by the agency be used by agency personnel in the performance of their responsibilities. The directive shall apply to weapons and ammunition carried both on and off duty, and must address:
a. the types and specifications of all lethal and less lethal weapons approved for use, including those weapons used by members of tactical teams or other specialized personnel;

b. the types and specifications of ammunition approved for use, including ammunition used in specialized weapons for members of tactical teams or other specialized personnel;

c. the procedure for review, inspection, and approval of all weapons intended for use by each employee in the performance of duty, prior to carrying, by a qualified weapons instructor or armorer;

d. a process to remove unsafe weapons;

e. the procedure for maintaining a record on each weapon approved by the agency for official use; and

f. guidelines for the safe and proper storage of agency authorized firearms.

o Commentary
o The intent of this standard is to establish strict agency control over all firearms, weapons, and ammunition it allows members to carry and use in the performance of their official duties, both on and/or off duty. Clear guidelines should be established for exact types and specifications of each category of weapon, including specialized weapons used by members of tactical teams or other specialized personnel. Written directives and the guidance provided through specific job descriptions should clearly describe the authority to carry and use weapons within the rules, regulations and laws established by local, regional, tribal, provincial, state or federal authority.
o For firearms, the agency should establish an approval process. Each firearm should be identified, meet the agency's established criteria and be safe and in good working order. The user should demonstrate his or her proficiency in using the firearm on an approved qualifying course before being approved, in writing, by the agency, to carry and use the firearm. A certified firearms instructor or armorer should inspect and approve the firearm and oversee the proficiency testing.
o A complete record of all weapons approved by the agency should be maintained. For firearms, the record should list the type, description, identifying model, and serial numbers of each firearm, as well as the identity of the owner or assignee. The record should also include the name of the official making the approval, the date of approval, the course fired, and all scores used to qualify the user on the demonstration of proficiency. (M M M M) (LE1)

We’ve been accredited for years. I just inspected and signed off on a POW CZ Scorpion for one of our detectives who is a USMS TFO and I’m not a CZ armorer. Just a “qualified firearms instructor”.

DamonL

02-21-2022, 04:36 PM

1986-1993: We are now a "Service" and will issue the S&W Model 19-5.

At that time, POW's were just about anything. I think you just had to have it approved by FTU and lettered. There were 1911's, high-powers, P7's, PPK's etc.

1993-2016: Like most federal agencies in the 90s, SIGs were the gold standard. We bought P228s. We also bought SP101s under the justification of being UC guns, and from what I saw were carried by management who wanted to sign them out to themselves instead of carrying the SIG. When the P228 ended production, we bought P229s and then P229Rs. You only had the previous pistol replaced if you opted to or it needed replacement (as in, we didn't make everyone turn in their P228s for P229s, you just got the currently produced pistol as needed).

That was the time FBI/DEA were doing a pistol trial to replace the 10mm S&W debacle. The pistol that came out on top was the Sig. The FBI issued Sigs for a short time than moved on to the Glock 23 and 22. Small agencies bought Sigs from the FBI contract.

Some articles that mentions using Sigs to replace the 1076.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/a-history-of-fbi-handguns/

https://gundigest.com/article/10mm-handguns-and-the-fbi

Sammy1

02-21-2022, 04:59 PM

That sounds like a misinterpretation of CALEA standards. There’s nothing that says you have to have an armorer for every weapon used. Here’s the actual standard from CALEA:

I agree. His beef was how can you inspect and or maintain a firearm if your not certified as an armorer. We ended up with everything saying Glock in the policy.

AMC

02-21-2022, 05:23 PM

I noticed many of you speaking of POW. We ran into accreditation review problems with our off duty gun policy as we weren't certified armorers in every make/model we allowed. As instructors/armorers does your agencies have you go through armorer school for every weapon authorized?

Our armorers (2 full time guys) are certified on every platform the department issues....but not on everything that is authorized as a backup. Any issues are on the individual officer. As for off-duty....there are no restrictions whatsoever. Guys issued and trained only on a DA/SA P226R in .40 can carry a 1911, an HK P7, a Model 29, or a Desert Eagle in .50AE (yes....one jackass did just that). Every time I bring this idiocy up, I'm treated like the guy who wants to poison your dog. Too many brass with weirdo hipster guns that they think "work for them" who don't want to give up their fetish. 'Cause that's exactly what it is.

Texaspoff

02-22-2022, 07:37 AM

Our armorers (2 full time guys) are certified on every platform the department issues....but not on everything that is authorized as a backup. Any issues are on the individual officer. As for off-duty....there are no restrictions whatsoever. Guys issued and trained only on a DA/SA P226R in .40 can carry a 1911, an HK P7, a Model 29, or a Desert Eagle in .50AE (yes....one jackass did just that). Every time I bring this idiocy up, I'm treated like the guy who wants to poison your dog. Too many brass with weirdo hipster guns that they think "work for them" who don't want to give up their fetish. 'Cause that's exactly what it is.

Same with us here. We issue AR15 SBR's and all of our instructors are certified armorers for the AR platform. As far as pistols go, since we have a variety, mostly Glock, Sig, one XD, one VP9, one M&P, and a few 1911's, different instructors hold armorer certs in those platforms.

Because I built and maintain the policy and can regulate what brands are allowed, and if something new was to pop up, I can send someone to armors school for said platform. It is usually a good excuse for a some out of town R&R. :)

The condition of the officer's duty and off duty weapon still falls on the officer, the instructors verify the condition, before and after quals and training.

TXPO

BehindBlueI's

02-22-2022, 08:58 AM

I noticed many of you speaking of POW. We ran into accreditation review problems with our off duty gun policy as we weren't certified armorers in every make/model we allowed. As instructors/armorers does your agencies have you go through armorer school for every weapon authorized?

No, and our off duty/plain clothes list is pretty liberal.

.380 to .45, inclusive (note that is by caliber and not cartridge, so a .45 Colt or .44 Magnum is allowable)
5" barrel or less
minimum trigger pull of 4 lbs, unaltered from factory (Note I have Sig Custom Shop modified guns on my authorized list, Sig being the 'factory' it's allowable)
TDA guns must have a decocker.
No SAO

And a general "must be approved by armorer" catch-all for the That Guy who shows up with something that's stupid.

AMC

02-22-2022, 02:38 PM

If he doesn't know the story then it may be lost to antiquity!

Spoke to Rod at our Retiree/LEOSA shoot this morning. The older guys from the range had told him that it was never a universally issued gun. They bought a limited number of the 58's and officers could choose to qualify with and carry them as an option. They only lasted a few years in service before everyone apparently decided that .357 was "enough Magnum".

Erick Gelhaus

02-22-2022, 05:49 PM

Selection of Office (department) issued, allowed pistols:

Pre-89: At some point the Office went from deputies et al buying their own handguns to the Model 19 (detectives) and Model 66 (uniformed deputies) being issued. Personally owned handguns were allowed during this time. Switching required one to be off probation.

1990 – Model 66s were issued but if you completed the new deputy orientation range or a transition course with the handgun (and you had 500 rds. through it), then you could carry the other gun. Other handguns included 1911s, BHPs, various S&W semi-autos, S&W and Colt revolvers incl 44Mag/44Spl/45LC, H&K P7, Beretta 92F, Glock 17s.
1911s were the predominant semi-auto.

1992 – The Office bought fifteen 5906s as a proof of concept pistol. There were never more than 8 in service at any given time.

1997 – The decision to adopt an issue semi-auto had been made & we were told it would be a .40S&W. For various reasons, I think the slide mounted decocker being the biggest, neither the Ber 96 nor the S&W 4006 were in the testing. That left the Gen 3 G22 and the H&K USP. The USP performed better and was measurably rated better, but the Glock won on cost.
1911s and Glocks were the predominant pistols.

1998 – We bought & began issuing Gen 3 G22s. If you took one you had to carry it, however, if you didn’t take one you could continue carrying whatever.

2000 – 1st Glock Gen 3 G22 issues noted.

2010 & 11 – Significant Gen 3 G22 issues noted. Half of the pistols with WML failed internal testing (35+/75+). Guns were remediated at the manufacturer’s request. 25% of those failed.
We were faced with five choices (and this was after the ’08 crash which was hammering counties):
1) Do nothing and drive on;
2) Strip the lights off of the guns but do nothing else;
3) Full testing process for a new pistol/holster/etc.;
4) Switch to Gen 4 .40SW;
5) Switch to Gen 4 9mm;

We knew #1 was beyond dumb, #2 took itself out of consideration when a guy’s new Gen 3, G22 failed after the first round when attacked by a pit bull; couldn’t do #3 because of “no money” though I did reach out to some orgs that wanted to help; enough people didn’t think #5 was viable; so, we went with #4.

2013 & 14 – Odd damage, bulges to spent cases that was causing extraction, ejection issues in 5+ pistols.
Our options:
1) Do nothing
2) Open testing
3) Adopt Gen 4 9mm
We replaced Gen 4 G22s and Gen 3 G27s went with Gen 4 17s & 19s.

2016 – Had an OIS were someone kept claimed the 9mm failed. It hadn’t, out of the three shots fired, there was one lousy peripheral hit to the outside of the bicep.
Admin now wants to know if we should retest and find something “better.” Even with my thoughts on the gun, my response was “no, not for a marginal or incremental improvement.”

2019 – Two OIS that involved shooting through windshield/window glass. Bad guy’s immediately ceased doing bad things and were hospitalized. That led to an admin driven switch from standard Fed HST 147gr to Hornady Critical Duty 135gr +P.

The office still has a very liberal personally owned weapons policy. Sigs of various designs, STIs, and M&Ps are all carried.

Coyotesfan97

02-22-2022, 08:34 PM

Erick Gelhaus

02-22-2022, 11:39 PM

We handled the POW issue this - you are responsible for it's maintenance, care, etc. The Office's armorers would do an annual or bi-annual safety inspection. We'd send guys to the armorers school as they appeared & we could do it.

KevH

02-22-2022, 11:58 PM

Taking a gun off the list (de-authorizing it) because your department is too cheap or too lazy to send someone to a factory armorer's class is just lame.

The way it works at my department is that we have a group of armorers and between all of us we try to make sure at least of of us has been to every school for every possible POW that might show up. We used to try to keep spare parts in stock for everything, but that became way to cumbersome and I think my parts inventory is stuck in about 2009 right now (Gen3 Glocks, H&K USP's (all .40 and .45 of course), Beretta, SIG Classic, etc. We're now more in the mode of order parts as needed when an issue comes up. I keep a fat stock of department issue M&P, Remington 870, and AR parts on hand though.

The reality is, as with most things, there are actually just two of us that do 95% of the handgun armory work these days. The other guys just work on AR's, which is totally fine with me.

MickAK

02-23-2022, 12:23 AM

Just wanted to pop in and say I appreciate you guys giving us non-LEO folks some insight on how all of this gets decided. I'm glad I don't have to deal with what some of you apparently do and with less risk to my person in dealing with it.

AMC

02-23-2022, 09:48 AM

Erick Gelhaus

02-23-2022, 10:14 AM

How do you guys deal with a broken POW duty gun or an OIS gun that goes into evidence for who knows how long?

This is a sore subject because there hasn't been consistency. I've seen replacements bought for deputies' personal handguns after an OIS, I've seen them issued whatever we were issuing at the time, and I've seen no replacement after a deputy would not take an issue pistol (Glock 22) with the personal firearm staying in evidence until everything was completed.

Part of the organizational schizophrenia stems from a lawsuit in the 90s where a single shot was consciously fired (so, no claim of AD, ND, etc). After the lab, the 9mm pistol was returned, the guy sold it to buy another in a different caliber (.40SW). At trial, jurors wanted to see the pistol but it wasn't around. The jury found for the suspect. The hypothesis was that the verdict came from the gun not being available.

Organizationally, I would replace the deputy's / officer's base model pistol. When they got their pistol back, I'd offer to sell them the replacement. If they declined, we'd hold onto it for the next time.

Texaspoff

02-23-2022, 10:30 AM

HCM

02-23-2022, 11:08 AM

How do you guys deal with a broken POW duty gun, or an OIS gun that goes into evidence for who knows how long? I know different departments have various ways of handling this. I think Vegas Metro just gives you a 9mm Glock if your Staccato P Duo gets booked after a shooting, for example. Same for San Mateo Sheriffs, who I think require you to qual annually with both the issued gun and the POW.

Depends for us since we are a nationwide / decentralized agency.

Standard policy is each office is allowed to have up to five spare copies of the issued duty gun, for us the SIG P320 X-Carry. If you were involved in a shooting and your gun is taken as evidence we give you one of the local spares.

About 15 years ago I was working in a small sub office which was a 6 to 7 Hour drive from the main field office. We had no spare guns locally, so when we had an OIS I sent the officer home with my issued HK USP compact because I was the only one in the office that had a second gun, a Glock 26, on the books. This was around the time we were transitioning from HK to SIG so they backfilled me with the new duty gun, a P229 DAK.

Right after that literally everyone in the office put a POW on the books.

The last fatal OIS we had locally, involved four officers, three carrying the issued SIG and one carrying a POW G17.4 MOS. All four were initially given replacement SIGs from the local reserve. One of our legacy component agencies previously issued Glocks so our national firearms unit was able to come up with a GOV property G 17.3 for the POW Officer. The guns used in the OIS or in evidence for about 2 1/2 years so digging up a G17 was a good move.

Under our current Firearms policy we are only allowed to have two guns quote on the books” And we are required to qualify quarterly with all authorized duty weapons so the logistics of having thousands of extra guns and qualification shoots precludes us following LVMPD “extra gun” model.

TGS

02-23-2022, 11:41 AM

Not to be a stick in the mud, but if we were authorized a POW duty list and I purchased a Staccato C2 and lost it to the evidence room, I don't understand why it would be reasonable for the tax-payer to assume financial responsibility for a gun I chose to carry on my own volition when one would otherwise be provided for me.

As someone that would like to see my own agency have a more liberal POW policy, I feel like the agency budget probably has more pressing things to spend money on than budgeting for Joe Snuffy's hobby gun getting taken as evidence.

Coyotesfan97

02-23-2022, 12:20 PM

BehindBlueI's

02-23-2022, 12:24 PM

For us, you get an issued handgun and are required to carry it in uniform. You may get an issued shotgun if there is one available. We no longer issue rifles, and it's on you to provide yours if you want to attend the training to get qualified to carry it. We have never issued BUGs or off duty guns.

If you use a personal gun of any kind, it sits in the property room until everything is resolved. This has been weeks to years to nevers. Only your issued duty handgun is replaced, or shotgun if one's available. Everything else is on you.

Armorers are under no obligation to repair personal weapons, but most will do you a favor and at least look at it, swap sights, that sort of thing. If it breaks it's on you.

KevH

02-23-2022, 12:36 PM

AMC

02-23-2022, 02:10 PM

Guns used in an OIS go straight to the county crime lab from the scene, are processed, and back in the officer's possession typically within 48 hours (they're still on admin leave during that time). They are given an department-owned M&P with at least a full mag before they go home if they want it. I have no clue why some agencies book guns used in an OIS into property other than stupidity. If the crime lab does its job of properly processing it and documenting function and condition there is absolutely no reason for it.

If I can get a broken gun back in service with parts already on hand I do it. If I have to order a part then they carry the department-issued gun (everyone is issued one whether they carry it or not) and get qual'ed on it before they go back in-service.

This is a very sore subject here. There are department issued guns that have been held in evidence for over 20 years. Property and the investigative units provide no reason for this, and no one seems to be in a hurry to fix it. We currently have nearly 90 guns out of service due to being in evidence. No pending criminal case, no pending civil litigation. They just don't care, and don't think it's an issue because "the department gave them another one."

Our most recent OIS involved a "satellite" Bureau that operates in another county. The guns were tested and examined within 48 hrs, and returned within 5 days. The crazy thing is everyone here thinks this is totally normal, and how it's done everywhere. It's one of the goofy reasons some here oppose a POW policy. Sometimes this job is like being a translator for non English speaking TBI patients.

TC215

02-23-2022, 02:24 PM

Chuck Whitlock

02-23-2022, 04:07 PM

My current agency doesn't issue sidearms, except for the SRT. Patrol deputies are issued an 870. Folks here carry personal weapons, and are responsible for their care and maintenance. No agency armorers, except someone was sent to armorer school for the SRT guns. Not sure who it was or if he is still with the agency.
OIS's get investigated by the Rangers. Guns are typically returned within a week or two.

The only items on my person that are owned by the agency are the badge, body armor, and radio.

Duelist

02-23-2022, 04:13 PM

This is a very sore subject here. There are department issued guns that have been held in evidence for over 20 years. Property and the investigative units provide no reason for this, and no one seems to be in a hurry to fix it. We currently have nearly 90 guns out of service due to being in evidence. No pending criminal case, no pending civil litigation. They just don't care, and don't think it's an issue because "the department gave them another one."

Our most recent OIS involved a "satellite" Bureau that operates in another county. The guns were tested and examined within 48 hrs, and returned within 5 days. The crazy thing is everyone here thinks this is totally normal, and how it's done everywhere. It's one of the goofy reasons some here oppose a POW policy. Sometimes this job is like being a translator for non English speaking TBI patients.

That’s crazy. I have no idea what guns they are, of course, but at SWAG of $500 per gun, that’s $45k of property that is out of service for no good reason. With budgets being tight, why would they do that?

RJflyer

02-23-2022, 08:12 PM

How do you guys deal with a broken POW duty gun, or an OIS gun that goes into evidence for who knows how long? I know different departments have various ways of handling this.

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but FWIW...my agency issues a gov't weapon. Its up to us if we choose to carry it. If my POW goes down, either as evidence or due to breakage, then I can just start carrying the issued weapon until I get another POW approved. The caveat here is that I have to maintain qualification on the issued weapon, regardless of whether or not I choose to carry a POW.

This is a very sore subject here. There are department issued guns that have been held in evidence for over 20 years. Property and the investigative units provide no reason for this, and no one seems to be in a hurry to fix it. We currently have nearly 90 guns out of service due to being in evidence. No pending criminal case, no pending civil litigation. They just don't care, and don't think it's an issue because "the department gave them another one.

I've run into similar examples. In my recent experience its usually due to a congressional mandate that's been translated through various layers of federal bureaucracy into a blanket agency policy that doesn't have room for common sense exceptions. The level of effort needed to make a change is generally lower than the level of effort it takes to just comply with the policy, so it sticks.

john c

02-23-2022, 08:47 PM

Reading the histories of duty weapons at these departments makes me realize how bad the options were until at least the mid-80's. I see why agencies stuck with revolvers until the early '90s.

Grouse870

02-23-2022, 08:51 PM

The two agencies I have worked for issue one sidearm (well my current agency offers a compact or full size Glock) No POW or back up guns authorized. That’s what you get deal with it. I’ve run S&W 1.0 and glocks and I could really run either without issue. If I could pick one myself I’d probably get a gen 5 Glock 34 with a dot but honestly I’d rather be allowed to carry a back up gun.

Sammy1

02-23-2022, 09:49 PM

OIS, gun to the crime lab 6-8 months.

KevH

02-23-2022, 10:15 PM

OIS, gun to the crime lab 6-8 months.

Think about what a crime lab does with a gun.

They basically document the condition in which it was recovered from the officer (could also include DNA swabbing and fingerprinting depending on the type of OIS we're talking about and if the suspect supposedly touched the gun). They photograph and document the outside then do a documented function check step by step. They process any magazines and ammunition in the gun (or in the officer's mag pouch) and document the type of rounds and in what state they were found. They fire exemplar rounds for bullet and shell casing comparisons. If they're thorough, they may detail strip and document individual parts and discuss wear or abnormalities. Typically, they mark the gun in some hidden way, and then return it to the officer's department.

Everything I just discussed takes three or four hours max. I get it if you have a multi-officer OIS if it takes a week to get the gun back.

But ask yourself, based on what I described, why in the world would they need the gun for longer than a month, let alone six to eight?

Sammy1

02-23-2022, 11:05 PM

Possible rules of evidence, your state is different then mine. Three years ago we convicted a gang banger of illegal possession of a Kimber 1911. Court is still holding the weapon because defense filed an appeal. Also, if convicted evidence must be preserved until statue of limitations expires on charge, appeals... In an OIS we won't get firearms back until District Attorney clears the officers and then, maybe much later if it's held pending other legal action (1983?). Depends on county.

Sammy1

02-23-2022, 11:13 PM

Deleted

jnc36rcpd

02-24-2022, 02:45 AM

My former agency issued S&W revolvers when I started in 1981. Shortly thereafter, we switched to Ruger Service-Six revolvers. I have no idea why.
Some years later, we went to the SigSauer 226. I was on the selection committee and wrote the recommendation though I was not an instructor. We issued that pistol and gave detectives a 230. We eventually gave some officers wih smaller hands a 228.
Then the instructors wanted to go to .40. I was tasked with writing the proposal. I still wasn't an instructor and was the .40 was already losing its shine for me.

As years went on, the 226 came with rails. Despite passive resistance from the chief, we authorized lights.After becoming firearms training coordinator, I got 239's to replace the 230's though detectives almost always stayed with the 226. I eventually got the 239 authorized for officers with smaller hands. Their qualification scores did not significantly improve, but they expressed greater confidence with the weapon.

Another instructor started a rather jacked-up testing process for new weapons. (I had been rotated out the the coordinator position by this time.)While we evaluated .40 pistols, we purchased 9mm FNS-9's. Scores of marginal shooters improved while those of more dedicated shooters did not or declined.

The FNS-9 may seem like an odd choice, but I suspect the desire to carry a somewhat unique weapon was uppermost in many in the firearms program.

The M&P had been evaluated along with FNS, Glock, DA/SA and DAK SIG. The M&P was in the lead until FN America dropped the price. The pistols were a catastrophe, especially since the newly minted firearms training coordinator (not an armorer now a firearms instructor nor even a state certified instructor in anything) decided agency weapons needed lights attached.

The weapons were unreliable, especially with lights mounted. Night sights just died. The ambidextrous magazine release released magazines whenever. Frames broke. There was a desk pop in the locker room which seems to have been attributed to a weapons failure.

Agency currently carries the Glock 17 and 19, All except for the chief who is issued a Glock 26 because the weight of his office is so heavy.

BehindBlueI's

02-24-2022, 07:49 AM

But ask yourself, based on what I described, why in the world would they need the gun for longer than a month, let alone six to eight?

For us, back log. We test fire *every* gun brought into the property room regardless of why with the only exception being it's ineligble for NIBIN entry. Crime gun, found property, family surrender, doesn't matter. We do it all in house and only have one lab, and given the sheer number of guns we take in, well, bottleneck. It took me 13 months to get my rifle back and it was actually never tested, just released as the prosecutor said it would be a waste of resources to do so given the circumstances. I still have my magazine and chambered round in their little evidence envelopes unopened from when Crime Lab collected them.

TC215

02-24-2022, 09:02 AM

For us, back log. We test fire *every* gun brought into the property room regardless of why with the only exception being it's ineligble for NIBIN entry. Crime gun, found property, family surrender, doesn't matter. We do it all in house and only have one lab, and given the sheer number of guns we take in, well, bottleneck. It took me 13 months to get my rifle back and it was actually never tested, just released as the prosecutor said it would be a waste of resources to do so given the circumstances. I still have my magazine and chambered round in their little evidence envelopes unopened from when Crime Lab collected them.

We do that too, but an OIS gun takes priority. We drive it to the lab, the scientists spend a couple hours doing their thing, and we drive them back to the field offices. It takes a day, even with multiple guns.

BehindBlueI's

02-24-2022, 09:05 AM

We do that too, but an OIS gun takes priority. We drive it to the lab, the scientists spend a couple hours doing their thing, and we drive them back to the field offices. It takes a day, even with multiple guns.

We've flip flopped on that, but the current thinking is unsolved crime guns take priority due to timeliness of investigative leads and known murder/agg assault guns due to potential for fast/speedy or just charging information. OIS doesn't get bumped to the front just because OIS.

Wayne Dobbs

02-24-2022, 09:49 AM

Think about what a crime lab does with a gun.

They basically document the condition in which it was recovered from the officer (could also include DNA swabbing and fingerprinting depending on the type of OIS we're talking about and if the suspect supposedly touched the gun). They photograph and document the outside then do a documented function check step by step. They process any magazines and ammunition in the gun (or in the officer's mag pouch) and document the type of rounds and in what state they were found. They fire exemplar rounds for bullet and shell casing comparisons. If they're thorough, they may detail strip and document individual parts and discuss wear or abnormalities. Typically, they mark the gun in some hidden way, and then return it to the officer's department.

Everything I just discussed takes three or four hours max. I get it if you have a multi-officer OIS if it takes a week to get the gun back.

But ask yourself, based on what I described, why in the world would they need the gun for longer than a month, let alone six to eight?

In the wild and wooly days of policing in Dallas in the 80s and 90s, there were LOTS of OISs, often three to five a week in the area. The Southwest Institute of Forensic Sciences (SWIFS, the Dallas County Crime Lab) got your gun back in about 10 days on average. They also detail stripped and detail cleaned it before return!

TC215

02-24-2022, 10:05 AM

We've flip flopped on that, but the current thinking is unsolved crime guns take priority due to timeliness of investigative leads and known murder/agg assault guns due to potential for fast/speedy or just charging information. OIS doesn't get bumped to the front just because OIS.

I think the idea is to get guns back in holsters as soon as possible, especially with little departments where all the guns might be personally-owned without issued-spares to rely on.

BehindBlueI's

02-24-2022, 10:09 AM

I think the idea is to get guns back in holsters as soon as possible, especially with little departments where all the guns might be personally-owned without issued-spares to rely on.

Little departments probably don't have the sheer volume to deal with, either. I'm not saying our way is right or wrong, just that it's our way.

TC215

02-24-2022, 10:18 AM

Little departments probably don't have the sheer volume to deal with, either. I'm not saying our way is right or wrong, just that it's our way.

Right, I’m specifically referencing my agency. It’s not unusual for us to work multiple OIS’s every week. Could be for an agency with 1,000+ officers or five officers.

Of course, if the individual departments decide to hold onto the guns, it doesn’t really matter how fast we get it done.

Since you’re with a large agency and you have your own lab, I can see it not being as pressing for you guys.

4RNR

02-24-2022, 11:15 AM

The largest department near me, with several thousand officers, used to issue S&W model 10s up until 88 or so. Then they switched to Glock 17. At that time all new officers got the G17 and current officers who wanted to stay with the revolver could. Today the issued gun is G17. You can carry any other Glock or caliber provided you buy your own gun and ammo

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

SW CQB 45

02-24-2022, 01:48 PM

I was IA for 5 years and part of that assignment was OIS investigation.

We made it a point to have access to the following

Glock with mags
Spare holster / mag pouch
duty ammo

that way if we took a gun, we replaced it with a gun/ammo.

Should it be the officer's personal that was different than what is issued, we had the holster / mag pouch ready to issue.

We told the officer they needed to qual as soon as possible with the newly issued gun.

We have spare Glocks but me worst-case thinking; I would bring my issued as a spare and was prepared to give it to them.

I only investigated 3, but the Chief back then was from a big agency (west coast) and we are 120ish... he wanted a process as we went down the road.

We use the DPS lab and normally the firearm is back in our evidence before grand jury presentment. I would guess that since the Texas Rangers handle that end, it makes the gun handling process faster.

When I started in 89, we were issued SW 686.
They started testing semi autos in 92. I recall Sig 220 and Glock 21 were the choices. There might have been another.
Admin chose Glock 21 and Federal 230 Hydras (old style)
Cheap admin eventually started buying us Starfire El Dorado and Wolff ball, then finally a push from us went to Gold Dot and no steel case.
There was a common complaint... the G21 was too big and too hard to control.
So, we eventually faded into G17/19 and 147s.
Now the complaint is my gun shoots left. go figure.

We do allow personal and have an approved list.
of what I can recall on the "street" from a personal standpoint
1911
Staccato
SW MP

the young officers want RDS now, but they want the city to buy it. I doubt that will happen due to the cost for everything per officer.

BobM

02-24-2022, 02:17 PM

In the seventies, my agency issued I believe a Model 10 in 38 but issued Model 57s in .41 Magnum to sergeants. I don’t know what the rationale for that was. One officer I believe was allowed to carry a personally owned 57. I did a LEOSA qual for him when he was in his late 70s, he still shot a 2 1/2” 19 pretty well. Sometime in the 80s they issued Model 66s, most likely with 38 ammo. The story is that there was a very cold weather training range date and the 66s didn’t work. They then went to Ruger Security Sixes, which were issued when I started in 1989. Ammo was the 95 grain +P Silvertip as the then chief was pretty uptight about over penetration.
While I was in the academy they were looking into pistols. Front runners were the 5906 and 4506. The then mayor also loaned his P7 for evaluation but I don’t think it was seriously considered. The firearms guy at the time thought it would be easier to sell the idea of trading a six shot gun for a 15 shot gun as opposed to a nine shot gun. In mid 1990 we got the 5906s. Our guy had been able to get to armorer school before the pistols arrived. When they came in, I helped inspect them and we sent about half back. Issued ammunition then was the 115 grain Silvertip. Some years later I changed that to 127 +P+ load.
By 2006 we we having some wear issues and small parts breakage. The chief (still the same one) wanted to simply replace them with new 5906s so we wouldn’t have to buy new leather. However, S&W wouldn’t fill an order that small, and the M&P was new. We obtained a sample in 40 as I think it was more available at the time. At a staff meeting we decided between 9 and 40 this way: the chief said “I already own a 9 but I don’t have a 40”. So we bought 30 M&P40s. About 2012 the next chief had me start replacing pistols a few at a time with new M&P. Today most of them are 2.0 in 40. Issued ammunition has been the 180 grain Gold Dot. I tried the 155 Gol Dot back in 2006 but the recoil seemed too “snappy” for some officers.
I’m now retired and using either a 2.0 compact or a Shield Plus.

jnc36rcpd

02-24-2022, 04:01 PM

When we first transitioned to SIG, officers were restricted to SIG products or revolvers. As time went on, the chief relaxed somewhat. When I left, the policy authorized .380, 9mm, 357SIG, and .45. I believe revolver calibers and 45GAP were also authorized. Next xhief restricted carry to 9mm and .40 and supplies ammunition. (We would provide ammunition for the duty caliber and we still had .40 in stock when I left, but you were on your own with other calibers.)

When we transitioned to the SIG, we purchased a couple of 9mm Colt carbines because we believed rifle calibers would over penetrate. The Beltway sniper case resulted in the fastest weapon decision in agency history when we traded them to Botach for Colt rifles. Personal rifle program allowed officers to purchase Colt products, but was later expanded to Bushmaster and Rock River and then any AR-15. I understand that all rifles are now FN SBR's. Despite my experience with the FNS-9, that was probably a good choice.

While the armorers would help you out, you were on your own for repair of personal weapons. We did have some concern that people who went to a Colt armorer course could not work on AR-15's from other manufacturers, but cooler hears prevailed.

Policy required replacement of a pistol used in an OIS before an officer secured. Exceptions were if there were plans forf criminal prosecution or mental health concerns. I realized that opened the door to overly cautious executives snatching guns without replacement, but I didn't see a way around that. If the current chief had been in office, I wouldn't have put that clause in the general order. (Of course, if the current chief had been in office, I probably wouldn't have been writing general orders or making any decisions really.)

DaBigBR

02-24-2022, 07:08 PM

The OIS discussion is interesting.

We don't have many. A couple chiefs ago, we had one and our guy got his gun back when he was cleared by the county attorney. A couple years back we had two shootings and the then chief decreed that the guns would be held in evidence until the statute of limitations for filing a civil action passed.

I have a friend in a large agency in the southwest. A buddy of his had a fatal OIS recently and got his gun back in about two weeks.

I'm curious, legally, on a personally owned gun if the department can legally hold the gun after the officer is cleared. It's no longer evidence of anything, and it's not their property. Sure, they could tell you you couldn't carry it anymore or whatever, but I don't see how they could keep it.

KevH

02-24-2022, 07:24 PM

We've flip flopped on that, but the current thinking is unsolved crime guns take priority due to timeliness of investigative leads and known murder/agg assault guns due to potential for fast/speedy or just charging information. OIS doesn't get bumped to the front just because OIS.

We have a huge backlog in this county as well. The criminalists processing the guns in this county are sworn deputies. An OIS gun goes to the very front of the line.

Brian T

02-25-2022, 12:19 AM

In the wild and wooly days of policing in Dallas in the 80s and 90s, there were LOTS of OISs, often three to five a week in the area.

I don't think people know just how crazy Dallas was in the 80's and early 90's. Born and raised in Dallas, Love Field to be exact. It wasn't uncommon, while going to school, to see a covered body in an alley with cops all around.

I look forward to E.R. Walt's (Captain, DPD, Ret) next book that supposedly centers on DPD in that same timeframe.

Sammy1

02-25-2022, 08:50 AM

I think the idea is to get guns back in holsters as soon as possible, especially with little departments where all the guns might be personally-owned without issued-spares to rely on.

A Chief in NH (possible Durham) wrote a great article on the process after an OIS. In the article he noted that NHSP Major crimes confiscated all the firearms on scene and the department didn't have any replacements. He sent a guy to Sig and bought replacements.

DpdG

02-25-2022, 10:28 PM

A Chief in NH (possible Durham) wrote a great article on the process after an OIS. In the article he noted that NHSP Major crimes confiscated all the firearms on scene and the department didn't have any replacements. He sent a guy to Sig and bought replacements.

Can confirm.

car541

02-25-2022, 11:58 PM

My job has been personally owed since 1837. They came up with and approved brand and caliber list in the 80s, and it has expanded and contracted over the years but is still pretty extensive.

As far as OIS’s, Our procedure is to send a firearms examiner to the scene of an OIS to collect the weapon. The examiner then immediately does all required processing at the lab while the officer is debriefed by his FOP lawyer, does their video walkthrough with IA and goes to homicide for a written formal statement. Generally, the weapon is completed with processing and returned by the time the statement is done (6-7 hours). The officer is then sent home with his gun. Examiners really like being woken up at 3am on Sunday to come to a scene, but they understand.

The reasons for this process are mainly around reinforcing to a justified shooter that they didn’t do anything wrong and the agency is not preparing to throw them under the bus. We also assign a very senior acquaintance of the officer to walk though the IAD process with them to make sure they have coffee, someone calls the wife, etc and sits with them.

In cases where charges are expected, it is not returned. In some bizarre cases, such as damage to the weapon rendering it inoperable, or the suspect’s fingerprint on the weapon, a replacement is found. Hospitalized personnel are not given the weapon back until they are discharged from the hospital.

KeeFus

02-26-2022, 04:48 PM

I’ve been involved in purchasing weapons for my agency. It all comes down to what the person in the corner office wants…and the power of suggestion at the right time.

We switched from Hk USP 45 to M&P 45 midsize. Great duty guns but the magazine springs were problematic. Smith finally got their shit together and we had no further issues. We were looking at Smiths and Glock but it came down to money…and Smith was cheaper.

Que new chief… he wants to retire with a Glock 19 and the M&P45s were 5 years old…still running strong. He couldn’t hit the side of a barn at 5 yards and, of course, blames the M&P…no matter that he’s a 🐈. Other firearms instructor tells him he may shoot better with a Glock 17 or 19 the day he qualifies (all about timing) and poof…new pistols. Most worthless chief I’ve ever had the displeasure to work with…he wasn’t much of a cop either…(I know, some of you are surprised…). However, I didn’t mind the change to the Gen 4 17’s so…

These pistols just passed the 5 year mark in service life and we…(well I’m retired…but still reserve)…so, they just replaced the RSA, trigger spring, and other items that “need to be replaced” per Glock recommendations on all pistols. No issues what so ever…they’re boringly reliable Glocks. If they switch it’ll be for Glock 45s with MOS configuration.

I always looked at aftermarket support and what holsters, etc were readily available. It is usually Glock and Safariland. I don’t think anyone can beat that combo and agencies can usually get a lower price for both when purchased by the same vendor, here in NC it would be Craigs Firearms (Glock) or Lawmens (Sig or S&W).

In reference to OIS’s, here the SBI usually places the gun in evidence in the jurisdiction where it happened. It’ll get sent to the lab and they’ll do whatever. It doesn’t take all that long to do what they need to do but there is usually a backlog, as has been mentioned. Most agencies here give the officers their gun back when they can. Although there are a few larger agencies here that will NOT let the officer have/buy the gun they used in the shooting.

My G21 stayed in evidence for 2.5 years because the dude I shot family attorney had a judge sign an order prohibiting destruction or reissuing of any evidence for two years. During that 2.5 years the agency switched to a G21SF and traded the Gen 2’s…all but mine…because it was in evidence. The agency head approached my wife and asked her if she wanted to buy it…and she jumped at the opportunity. It now sits in my safe.

I have never worked for an agency that let officers carry a POW pistol on duty…and I think that’s the way to go. It just seems there is less liability for the agency and the officer. Because, you know officers would never try to alter a gun because they saw a guy on YouTube do a $.25 trigger job and it made the trigger so much better…. There is a reason we inspect guns every year….

jnc36rcpd

02-26-2022, 06:15 PM

Agreed about that guy or girl in the corner office. My former chief absolutely hates Glock for some reason. I suspect this stems from coming from an age when ships were wood and men were iron (as were guns sort of). This wasn't an issue in the late eighties because we wanted SIG 226 pistols.

As time went on, the department and instructor opinions changed. As we leaned toward polymer striker-fired pistols, he still hated Glock. I suspect that why we ended up with the FNS-9. We could have saved several years of problems if we'd gone Glock in the first place.

Jeff22

02-26-2022, 06:38 PM

This is a wonderful discussion.

Austin Millbarge

02-27-2022, 12:09 PM

Recently did a test and assessment process for new pistols.

We stayed with handguns that were in common use without any major issues, just to reduce our testing and ammunition costs.

We tested Glock 19 and Glock 45. M&P. Sig P229. And Beretta APX.

Gathered 12 people from across the agency. Good shooters, strugglers, animals, munchkins, lefties, etc. About even make and female.

They shot three courses of fire with each gun, about 100 rounds per pistol.

Then they rated them on 19 different criteria. Grip, sights, first shot, follow up shots, malfunction clearing, etc.

The Glocks came in first and second. Which was kind of a surprise as we’ve had DA/SA metal guns since 1989.

We did not test a 320 as the gun they sent us ceased working in the first 100 rounds.

The APX centurion failed in the first 250 rounds.

It was pouring rain and 48 degrees. A thirteen hour day. General all around suck fest.

The process was done that way to avoid the idea that command staff or firearms unit staff influenced the decision in any way. Although we kind of did by picking which guns were tested, the shooters had the final say. We limited the guns being tested to what was in common wide scale use with no issues, and had holster and accessories available. The guns we tested all met that criteria.

KevH

02-27-2022, 12:56 PM

AMC

02-27-2022, 01:52 PM

Don't worry. Someone will still bitch (likely behind your back) and say you made a non-objective decision and that it was based on cost.

Or even better.....someone makes an anonymous complaint to IA that you are getting kickbacks from a manufacturer in the form of cash and free guns.

Our POA had said early on that the end users should have input into this process, and I agreed. We had about 75 cops shoot the guns on a short course of fire, scored them, and then also asked for feedback on multiple points (trigger, sights, modularity, adaptability, etc.). My personal favorite came in #2, but as I told the staff at the beginning of the process when some lazy fuckers encouraged me to "just puck one".....I'm not picking a gun for ME. I'm not even a huge fan of the whole "one gun to rule them all" model. You can get much closer to the "one size fits all" thing with modern polymer, modular pistol designs.....but I don't really care. I like Glocks. I like M&Ps (a lot). I like 320s. They all work. But I only get to make big decisions until someone with no knowledge but lots of brass decides I'm wrong. So one gun it is. And frankly, the one was preferred by almost 90% of our shooters. And they also shot it slightly better on our scored course.

But I'm still wrong, I know.

jnc36rcpd

02-27-2022, 04:45 PM

The great unwashed masses should certainly have input into the selection of new weapons. If someone has confidence in their pistol, he or she is likely to perform better with it. The county police, along with the sheriff's office and fire marshals, went to DAO Beretta Centurions and Brigadiers shortly after my former department and a neighboring city selected DA/SA SIG 226's. Whatever the "better" or "right" choice, I suspect county instructors had to devote time to explaining the reasoning of DAO to their troops when the time would be better spent training..

On the other hand, I wouldn't decide based strictly on popular vote which may be influenced by gun magazines, YouTube videos, or what someone's buddy's agency carries.If I were involved in a weapon selection process again, I'd look at qualification scores with instructor oversight to see if problems with weapons manipulation occurs. If problems occur, it's time to decide if it's a poorly designed weapon or a training issue that can be rectified in transition and sustainment training.

I would also endeavor to winnow out guns to a manageable two or three semi-finalists.As I recall, my former agency votes from a selection of three flavors of SIG, two M&P's, two Glocks, and one FN. Of course, I would have tested the guns in the right caliber and with the mandated WML's attached.

Jeff22

02-27-2022, 07:16 PM

The agency I spent most of my career with was created in 1970.

They started out with S&W 10 revolvers.

Sometime around 1980 they switched to the S&W 66 revolver, loaded with .38 Special 158 grn LSWC hollow points.

The switch to the auto pistol began in my area in late 1987. The Agency then switched to Sig 226s in 9mm loaded with Winchester Silvertips.

I started there in late 1989.

In 1990 we hired a couple of females with small hands. We bought Sig 225s to accommodate them, and then bought a few more the next years for detectives and admin staff.

In 2004 we traded those guns off for Sig 226-DAK in .40 cal. The agency did NOT buy any Sig 239-DAKs to accommodate shooters with small hands, and that was a problem. Ammo was the 165 grn Winchester Ranger HP.

In 2013 we got on the State Patrol bid and bought Gen IV Glock 22s in .40 cal. They bought Glock 27s for detectives and admin staff (I thought we should have purchased G23s for those people). Many who selected the G27 turned them in after shooting them because the gun was too small. I enjoyed saying “I told you so.” The only debate about the Glocks was whether or not to require the New York trigger spring, and fortunately, they did not.

In 2018 they issued new Safariland ALS holsters and TLR-1 weapon mounted lights. Nobody had a problem with malfunctions with the WMLs on.

In 2020 they allowed any Glock 17/22/45 as a personal purchase, and authorized red dot sights as well. With the ammo supply getting tight, they didn’t conduct a transition class for those with RDS but the only people to switch were “gun guys” and they didn’t have a problem becoming proficient. If you were carting a personal gun that wouldn’t fit in a G22 holster, you had to buy your own. I think all of the people running RDS used MOS guns.

Utm

02-27-2022, 08:42 PM

Jason M

02-27-2022, 09:14 PM

We had that option when changing from Gen 4 9mm guns to Gen 5. It was not chosen.

Chuck Whitlock

02-27-2022, 09:36 PM

I have never worked for an agency that let officers carry a POW pistol on duty…and I think that’s the way to go. It just seems there is less liability for the agency and the officer. Because, you know officers would never try to alter a gun because they saw a guy on YouTube do a $.25 trigger job and it made the trigger so much better…. There is a reason we inspect guns every year….

I understand that reasoning, and there is a lot to be said for it. But....

The great unwashed masses should certainly have input into the selection of new weapons. If someone has confidence in their pistol, he or she is likely to perform better with it.

A POW takes care of the above issue, too. If you can carry whatever you want....within reason....you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Maybe part of it comes down to that thing about policing being regional.

I will say that, if you've got a new recruit who comes in a little gun shy, a Gen3 G22 is not the optimal choice to teach them to shoot with.

KevH

02-27-2022, 09:37 PM

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

I'd rather buy them an optic too (which is what I'm working on).

The individual officer would have to buy the optic, appropriate heigh iron sights, a plate and a holster.

All of those things together cost more than a gun would so he or she might as well just buy and carry their own gun at that point.

Let's be real. Most "gun folk" are just going to buy their own gun and optic anyway given the option (just because they can).

If you work for the type of misguided department that only allows one gun I'm pretty sure they would only give you the option of one optic as well.

Lon

02-27-2022, 09:49 PM

Utm

02-27-2022, 09:55 PM

I'd rather buy them an optic too (which is what I'm working on).

The individual officer would have to buy the optic, appropriate heigh iron sights, a plate and a holster.

All of those things together cost more than a gun would so he or she might as well just buy and carry their own gun at that point.

Let's be real. Most "gun folk" are just going to buy their own gun and optic anyway given the option (just because they can).

If you work for the type of misguided department that only allows one gun I'm pretty sure they would only give you the option of one optic as well.
The g45 with rmr and tlr7a was selected because giving officers 1 option was "easier" as far as the admin side goes with holsters and inventory

KevH

02-27-2022, 11:29 PM

The g45 with rmr and tlr7a was selected because giving officers 1 option was "easier" as far as the admin side goes with holsters and inventory

If I were forced to carry one gun, one optic and one light, I would not be mad at that choice.

Don't know how big your department is, but if I were the guy that had to change all the batteries I might not be too happy though.

Utm

02-27-2022, 11:42 PM

If I were forced to carry one gun, one optic and one light, I would not be mad at that choice.

Don't know how big your department is, but if I were the guy that had to change all the batteries I might not be too happy though.

100-120 officers. The x300 was voted as the favorite, but that decision was vetoed by people that don't have to work the streets

KevH

02-28-2022, 12:01 AM

100-120 officers. The x300 was voted as the favorite, but that decision was vetoed by people that don't have to work the streets

Yeah, I personally like the X300 more, but there are much worse options than the TLR7A.

I remember when departments were purchasing the old Glock light for their officers and forcing them to carry that thing.

DaBigBR

02-28-2022, 09:13 AM

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

I expect our department will do that in the next few years. I would rather work it out between the department and the union to provide a stipend every X years for a pistol and accessories and just go all personally owned, but that's a hail Mary.

Ideally we will let the officers choose between the 17, 19, and 45. We currently waste a bunch of time and money issuing our detectives a 22 and 23 and then qualifying them on both guns twice a year. Most pick one and never touch the other.

SW CQB 45

02-28-2022, 01:39 PM

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

If I am still around (32 yrs).... I plan on recommending this.

In years past, Admin would only approve the purchase of 30 +/- Glocks a budget year.

It took 5 years and I cant recall what year Gen 5 came to but officers who were issued Gen 4s the previous years wanted to trade for Gen 5s (hA!)

We try to replace our Glocks every 10 years (with a trade in program).

I think 2025-26 will be the first batch to hit the 10 year mark.

H8Train

03-02-2022, 10:45 PM

I started at current department in early 2013. Standard issue at the time was 3rd Gen Glock 22. Mine was over decade old with dead night sights. Still shot great, even with a surefire X300 no matter what ammo was shot through it. Issued ammo was 165gr federal hydrashok. FWIW we actually had pretty good results with our OIS with the antiquated hydra-shoks.

In 2017 some admin officer had a desk pop. Official story was someone was walking around the cubical farm and banged the gun/holster against a cubical wall which resulted in a "accidental discharge". Dept said a inspection of multiple issued handguns revealed multiple broken rear frame rails. I don't buy that as I don't see how it would be possible for a broken rear frame rail to cause that, pretty sure someone just cranked off a round finger fucking a gun and now the captain incharge of firearms was using this to get new guns. But Im just a foot soilder and don't get paid to think.

Since the FBI was going to 9MM at the time we switched to gen 4 9mm Glocks. Either G19 or G17 based off officer preference. New duty ammo is Speer Gold Dot G2 147gr. Last few OIS have had good results. And some gear queer admin was incharge of procurement and he happened to love truglo TFX pro sights. So now the issued handgun had those sights. But lets ignore how those sights shoot high for literally pretty much every one. But recently the dept has re-written policy to allow Glock factory nightsights but only at the officers cost.

But to fully paint the picture let me tell you about our fuddish policies. First, our issued Glocks have the NY1 trigger return spring "its how we have always done it". The 3rd Gen G22's were adopted in the very early 2000's after the standard issued was Berreta 96D's, and prior to that Berreta 92D, and prior to that Ruger police service six's (also DAO).

We also don't top off magazines. Cause we don't want to over-stress the magazine spring. So in our holstered guns, 16rds in the mag and one in the chamber. If you top off the magazine you will be written up. Nevermind the manufacturer and hundreds of thousands of other cops carry 17+1 with zero issues.

Offduty guns include Glocks in 9mm/40/45 with NY1 triggers, various sigs in 9/40 with DAO triggers, S&W 3rd gens with DAO triggers in 9/40, and Kahr K9.

jnc36rcpd

03-04-2022, 07:29 PM

An allied agency had a desk pop with a Glock 22 or 23 which was also attributed to wear inside the firearm. Detailed weapon maintenance and inspection were not hallmarks of the agency firearms program at the time.

This is not to say your unintentional discharge was not negligent , but I don't believe the local one was. Like your agency, the local department went to 9mm Glock. Also, oddly enough, they previously carried 9mm Beretta pistols (never stopped at .40 with them) and also don't top off.

Chuck Whitlock

03-04-2022, 09:16 PM

I started at current department in early 2013. Standard issue at the time was 3rd Gen Glock 22. Mine was over decade old with dead night sights.

In 2017 some admin officer had a desk pop. Official story was someone was walking around the cubical farm and banged the gun/holster against a cubical wall which resulted in a "accidental discharge". Dept said a inspection of multiple issued handguns revealed multiple broken rear frame rails. I don't buy that as I don't see how it would be possible for a broken rear frame rail to cause that, pretty sure someone just cranked off a round finger fucking a gun and now the captain in charge of firearms was using this to get new guns. But Im just a foot soilder and don't get paid to think.

I left an agency in 2014, who's G22's were the same vintage. One had the rear frame rails break on the range a few years before, and three others were in the affected S/N range. One of them was my issued weapon. I was the department armorer. I can kinda see how a discharge might be possible under certain conditions.

But to fully paint the picture let me tell you about our fuddish policies. First, our issued Glocks have the NY1 trigger return spring "its how we have always done it". The 3rd Gen G22's were adopted in the very early 2000's after the standard issued was Berreta 96D's, and prior to that Berreta 92D, and prior to that Ruger police service six's (also DAO).

Offduty guns include Glocks in 9mm/40/45 with NY1 triggers, various sigs in 9/40 with DAO triggers, S&W 3rd gens with DAO triggers in 9/40, and Kahr K9.

Some folks are here would be cool with that. I'd want the NY1 spring coupled with the "-" connector, though.

Gadfly

03-04-2022, 10:00 PM

I left an agency in 2014, who's G22's were the same vintage. One had the rear frame rails break on the range a few years before, and three others were in the affected S/N range. One of them was my issued weapon. I was the department armorer. I can kinda see how a discharge might be possible under certain conditions.
.

I get the concept… the rear rail is cracked off, and allows the slide to life up from the frame, which in theory can allow the cruciform to slip off the striker and allow it to go forward. But… the striker should still only be at half tension, not full tension, since the trigger has not been pulled to the rear, and the firing pin block would still be engaged as well. So even with the rear rail snapped off, I am not envisioning a discharge.

Side note, I recall in armorer school where they explained one rail always cracks off first, because the rifling in the barrel causes twist (obviously), but that torques the barrel hard while causing the spin. And that barrel and slide are locked together which means you always get more tension put on one rail than the other. I believe it was the left rear rail that was notorious for cracking first if memory serves (it has been a long time), and it was always a .40 problem, and was extremely rare in 9mm.

(Note; I edited for grammar and context)

Chuck Whitlock

03-04-2022, 10:23 PM

I get the concept… the rear rail is cracked off, and allows the slide to life up from the frame, which in theory can allow the cruciform to slip off the striker and allow it to go forward. But… the striker should still only be at half tension, not full tension, since the trigger has not been pulled to the rear, and the firing pin block would still be engaged as well. So even with the rear rail snapped off, I am not envisioning a discharge.

Good point about the striker block. I recall testing done a while back by one or more P-Fers that showed a half-tensioned striker setting off a primer about 1/2 the time, but the striker block was bypassed.

Side note, I recall in armorer school where they explained one rail always cracks off first, because the rifling in the barrel causes twist (obviously), but that torques the barrel hard while cause if the spin. And that barrel and slide are locked together which means you always get more tension put on one rail than the other. I believe it was the left rear rail that was notorious for cracking if memory serves (it has been a long time), and it was always a .40 problem, and was extremely rare in 9mm.

Dude in question's gun turned into a single shot about 3 rounds into qualification. Upon visual inspection, both rails were gone. Significantly, dude had just gotten back from CITP in Glynco. He was lucky it didn't go TU there.

HCM

03-04-2022, 10:47 PM

KevH

03-04-2022, 11:48 PM

Gadfly HCM jnc36rcpd H8Train Chuck Whitlock

The guns with broken frame rails were commonly "E" series guns (from the early 2000's) and Glock did a recall on them within a year or two of them being released (I still have my post-recall Gen3 G22 with a "1E" serial number).

The frame rail breaking off alone cannot cause the gun to discharge. The striker safety prevents that. I've seen a few "E" series guns with the broken frame rail. All of them continued to function just fine with the exception of a Glock 21 that kept having a dead trigger caused by the back of the cruciform slipping from the striker as the slide flexed just enough on the frame.

The stars (in reality the parts) would have to really align perfectly to allow it to happen where:

The slide needs to be able to wiggle just enough forward for the tab on the trigger bar to depress the striker safety plunger while the striker is released
...while...
The gun remains in battery with the disconnector not engaged
...while...
The striker is cocked far enough back and released to allow it to have enough force to pop a primer.

Even with a broken frame rail, if all other parts of the gun are working correctly the an un-commanded discharge cannot occur.

I suppose a foreign object could hypothetically enter between the slide and frame and depress the striker safety plunger although that is highly unlikely.

What's more likely is that an officer/agent AD'ed and the gun already happened to have a broken frame rail so they just blamed the gun rather than place blame on human error.

H8Train

03-05-2022, 08:10 AM

Gadfly HCM jnc36rcpd H8Train Chuck Whitlock

What's more likely is that an officer/agent AD'ed and the gun already happened to have a broken frame rail so they just blamed the gun rather than place blame on human error.

Yeah I'm betting on that was what happened with just the general politics of our dept.

Like Gadfly, I’m skeptical of a broken frame Rail causing a true AD in a Glock but it sounds like the desk pop guy did y’all a favor getting rid of the Gen 3 G22s.

I had asked range staff months prior to the incident when we would be getting new guns and was told it wasn't on their radar, so had it not happened I wouldn't be surprised if we still had them. FWIW though mine shot really well and they were pretty loose with ammo back then so I shot it a good bit. Only part failure I ever had was 1 slide stop.

gtmtnbiker98

03-05-2022, 08:22 AM

For those that are in charge of picking department weapons. Any thoughts on issuing everyone an optic ready gun and having an approved optic list for the officer to purchase at their expense (with an armorer installingit)? My department issued gun, optic, light, and holster but the process took about 2 years before the first rds gun hit the street

I did this very thing, just completed our roll out of Glock 45 MOS pistols. I provide the gun, Holosun 509T, CHPWS plate, low witness BUIS, and TLR7-A. Our process took me five minutes to issue a Purchase Order. Once we had all of the equipment (6 weeks after order placed) we rolled them out in a week, providing 4-6 hrs range training and familiarity. My people love them!

But, I’m a “gun guy” aware of industry trends and I’m the decision maker. Also, my folks shoot on average 200+ pistol rounds and 60 rifle rounds per month, all structured. We are a smaller department, with 20 FT officers.

Jeff22

03-05-2022, 11:43 PM

The agencies I worked for qualified quarterly and the total round count varied widely.

I want to come work for you!

L-2

03-06-2022, 09:48 AM

Regarding Post 108 and Glock broken frame rails.
I just wanted to add and confirm some of my experiences with broken Glock broken frame rails.

The left/rear rail seems to be the ones which broke off (first). Whether this was due to where the part was defective or because of twisting stresses concentrated on that rail is beyond my understanding.

In a couple of cases, it's true the Glock will still function with the remaining 3 rails. A person might not even notice the left rear rail was gone until/unless examining the Glock during a field strip/cleaning.

While two of my frames were in the specific "Exx###US" s/n range, I also had another G31gen3 (s/n "SKF###) outside of that range break a rail.

Where one of my G27gen3 guns did malfunction (I can't remember what the malf or feel was) was when both of the rear rails broke during a range session. I suspect the left rail broke first (I either ignored it or didn't even know it'd broke); then I kept shooting anyway, causing more stress on the right/rear rail, and really noticed it when the entire rear of the frame no longer held the slide. If I did notice the left/rear rail breaking, remembering reading or being told the Glock would still work anyway with 3 rails, I could see me keep shooting, just to finish my range practice that day. Well, perhaps the Glock would/did function with 3 rails, but I don't know how long it might function (whether 1 more round or 100; I didn't count or remember to note those details).

Unrelated to this thread, but I've also had a G30Gen4's frame crack above the locking block area which caused failures to feed or return to battery. All frames replaced by Glock buy I had to pay for the shipping to Glock (~$50 each, via FEDEX at the time. I heard a rumor FEDEX is no longer shipping individuals' handguns but don't know if that's truth or FUD. Maybe someone here would know).
ref. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fedex-says-the-little-people-can-no-longer-ship-firearms-only-certain-ffls.894616/

DaBigBR

03-06-2022, 10:21 AM

;
Unrelated to this thread, but I've also had a G30Gen4's frame crack above the locking block area which caused failures to feed or return to battery. All frames replaced by Glock buy I had to pay for the shipping to Glock (~$50 each, via FEDEX at the time. I heard a rumor FEDEX is no longer shipping individuals' handguns but don't know if that's truth or FUD. Maybe someone here would know).
ref. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fedex-says-the-little-people-can-no-longer-ship-firearms-only-certain-ffls.894616/

It's in the terms on their website. If you're shipping a gun back and the manufacturer provides a label, I suspect they're technically the shipper since it's coming from their account and everything is above board. Sig just sent me a label to send a gun back last week.

LockedBreech

03-06-2022, 02:21 PM

The most agency history I know is the Wyoming Highway Patrol, just because I've been related with and worked with WHP Troopers for almost my whole life.

In the 1980s, they had the 4" Smith 686 .355 Magnums. Generally everyone liked them.

In the early 1990s, they switched to the Beretta 92F. They were generally liked but eventually the poor 9mm JHP available at the time did not impress at a number of agency shooting exercises, especially against auto glass, so they switched to .40 S&W in the mid-late 1990s. Naturally, they went with the Beretta 96G.

Unsurprisingly, the 96G maintenance issues added up (though honestly it was still pretty well liked by most Troopers) but mostly the weight of the 92/96 compared to the newer polymer offerings was becoming apparent.

In the early 2000s (sometime after or during 2003, I think) they switched to Gen 3 G22s. That went pretty well for a few years until the Gen 3 .40 issues started cropping up.

In the late 2000s, they switched to M&P40s. They liked the guns well enough, but apparently customer service was noticeably inferior to the service they had with Glock.

Due primarily to the more responsive customer service of Glock, around 2011-2013, they switched back to Glock with the Gen 4 G35. The G35 was very well liked and had no maintenance or performance issues, but the 5.25" barrel (selected for longer ranged engagements that might occur stopping semis on highways) really came to be a pain in the butt in terms of holster-digging-into-seat comfort for long hours in a patrol cruiser.

In 2019, they were successfully wooed by Sig and the FBI switching to 9mm and adopted the 9mm P320 X Carry 3.9" barrel, straight trigger. These were abandoned this year after they had two officer discharges with that flat trigger after ages of nearly no issues like that with the Glock. Varying sources blamed a holster that snagged a trigger or an officer with a lazy finger, but someone in brass decided not to mess with it and that they should not have messed with Glock, which all the Troopers, armorers, and training officers were familiar with.

In 2021 to present, they selected and are currently issuing the Glock 45 (4" barrel, 17-size frame). They are reportedly happy with it and I think it's a great selection for them. Not sure what round they're issuing now that they've switched to 9mm, but in .40 S&W it was the Winchester Ranger Bonded.

My overall takeaway is that the selection has been reactive to issues, rather than proactive and forward-looking. Fortunately, that seems to have landed them at the excellent Glock 45. I hope they take the long-term lesson and stay a Glock 9mm agency. I know I was relieved when my brother's agency got sick of Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 22 issues and became a Glock 17 agency. Glock 17 has been my home-defense default for coming on a decade now because it's usually drama-free.

I will say in WHPs favor that they've tended to be pretty strict about having Troopers get a lot of rounds downrange. When I was a kid, I remember my dad having a bruised shoulder from how many 12-gauge rounds they'd practice with. And I know they now have some very nice 11.5" FN AR-15s they've been very happy with. Not nearly as nice as the M14 my dad used to have racked, though.

steve

03-06-2022, 03:11 PM

I did this very thing, just completed our roll out of Glock 45 MOS pistols. I provide the gun, Holosun 509T, CHPWS plate, low witness BUIS, and TLR7-A. Our process took me five minutes to issue a Purchase Order. Once we had all of the equipment (6 weeks after order placed) we rolled them out in a week, providing 4-6 hrs range training and familiarity. My people love them!

But, I’m a “gun guy” aware of industry trends and I’m the decision maker. Also, my folks shoot on average 200+ pistol rounds and 60 rifle rounds per month, all structured. We are a smaller department, with 20 FT officers.

200 + a month? That is great news. Right before I retired we were doing 100 rounds a year. 2 50 round quals.

Lon

03-06-2022, 03:33 PM

200 + a month? That is great news. Right before I retired we were doing 100 rounds a year. 2 50 round quals.

Gtmtnbiker98’s department is lucky to have him. He’s the rare Chief who’s a serious shooter/trainer.

L-2

03-06-2022, 03:52 PM

https://www.fedex.com/en-us/shipping/how-to-ship-firearms.html
Post 113, thanks for the info.

I then went to the UPS.com website.
https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/firearms.page

Apparently, UPS still will ship a firearm, specifically a handgun, but does want it packaged in a new corrugated cardboard box. Finding a new box could become a problem, unless UPS allows shipping in one of its own UPS-marked boxes. The UPS Store locations may have packaging, but cannot take in the firearm/package for shipment. While the actual UPS shipment shall be given to a UPS driver or to UPS's Customer Service counter, both of which won't have the packaging.

Hopefully, I'll not have to ship a firearm ever again or, if I do, I can get a FEDEX call tag emailed to me. In the past, this wasn't Glock's normal way of doing business.

Noah

03-07-2022, 06:48 AM

I had no problem shipping a handgun to an FFL with FedEx 2 years ago. Has that changed?

03RN

03-08-2022, 04:10 PM

200 + a month? That is great news. Right before I retired we were doing 100 rounds a year. 2 50 round quals.

I think 50rds/ week is the perfect amount to stay fresh and learn. More isn't bad but can get prohibitive in terms of cost and fatigue.

100-150 over a few days /week really help me improve

H8Train

03-08-2022, 06:29 PM

I think 50rds/ week is the perfect amount to stay fresh and learn. More isn't bad but can get prohibitive in terms of cost and fatigue.

100-150 over a few days /week really help me improve

We (1200ish sworn) qual on our handguns once a year. Quals are 50rds day/50rds night and the state required 30 rds (usually some sort of judgmental scenario). Last year or two because of the ammo situation the quals were reduced to 30 rds day/30 rds night.

Last 2 years if you asked for some ammo to practice there was none available. Just recently they announced some dates you could come to the range and practice but even then theres limited ammo available. Prior to that ammo was readily dispensed for practice either on your own or at the county range.

Contrast that to 40 years ago when there was a small indoor range in our station and guys could shoot at their leisure without supervision...