Pistol zeroing after sight installation

[Chomps]

I’m new to all this and Im considering getting a set of Speed Sights for my SA Hellcat. Just not crazy about that ‘U’ notch sight.

My question is since I don’t have the tools for removing & installing sights, I will be taking it to a gunsmith. After installing, how does one adjust or zero the sights without those tools to shift them? Does the gunsmith do this after paying him to install? Or Is it up to me to figure a way to adjust or drift the sights fractions of mm’s afterwards?

It doesn't seem as tho these dovetail type sights are easily (read accurately) adjusted in tiny increments by hammering on them. That would also seem to be awkward as hell to do on the fly @ the range!! Neither do they seem to lend themself to a quick, easy ‘Snap’ into place install.

My Walther has adjustable sights and they were,.. ARE shifted pretty significantly off center in the slides dovetail when it was purchased. I had to adjust the elevation & windage pretty far Up and to the R to zero that pistol when new. The speed sights do not allow for those type of easy, incremental adjustments, so Im confused as to how I establish a proper Zero once I get them installed.

Sorry if this is pretty basic, or seems like an obvious question, but as I mentioned, Im fairly new to CC and I know SQUAT about the mechanics involved. (…beyond a basic strip down for cleaning.)

[CCT125US]

If you don't have the tools or ability to self adjust, I suggest the following.

Place a target at 7, 10, or 25 yards. Whatever distance you can shoot a group. Not a pattern, but a group, from there a competent gunsmith can make adjustments.

This also helps with the math:

https://dawsonprecision.com/sight-calculator/

ETA: Choose a target with a small point of aim, 1" or 2" dot, use the same sight technique each time, be it level sight cutting desired POI, drive the dot, etc, and relay that to the gunsmith.

[mmc45414]

My question is since I don’t have the tools for removing & installing sights, I will be taking it to a gunsmith. After installing, how does one adjust or zero the sights without those tools to shift them? Does the gunsmith do this after paying him to install? Or Is it up to me to figure a way to adjust or drift the sights fractions of mm’s afterwards?
If you do not even have a vice it will be tricky. If you have a vice then reality involves tapping on them with some kind of punch that will not mark them up, typically brass. Sight pushers are cool, but many folks, including professionals, do not use them.
Here is an example of one prominent manufacturer doing an install:

https://youtu.be/zp8tqXvnNEA



Sorry if this is pretty basic, or seems like an obvious question, but as I mentioned, Im fairly new to CC and I know SQUAT about the mechanics involved. (…beyond a basic strip down for cleaning.)
Another thing that can save a done of ammo that has a quick ROI is a laser bore sighter, here is one example (https://www.amazon.com/EZshoot-Sight-Laser-Boresighter-Batteries/dp/B09F6G4LVF/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=ZKCV129Z6MFZ&keywords=9mm+laser+boresighter&qid=1645283656&sprefix=9mm+laser+boresighter%2Caps%2C462&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzOVI4QlhVQks3SFBBJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjc2NjM1Mk5RQVZKMU4wN1JTMSZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNjUzNDIwMU80MUJBSkVFQ0RVNyZ3aWRnZ XROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05 vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=).

I think they are so handy I even bought one that screws into the end of an arrow. :cool:

[JohnO]

I have found over the years and through many guns, my own and others that proper installation of sights is key. When I see a pistol with the rear sight drifted significantly off center very often the front sight is askew. I have also seen sights poorly installed from the factory. I remember purchasing one of my Gen5 G17s with Ameriglow Agent sights. The gun from the case I was looking at had it's rear sight way off center. I asked the sales guy if he had another which he did. He cracked open the box and the rear sight was also askew. I asked if the shop had a sight pusher and they centered it for me. I could have done it myself but figured let them do it. I tweaked it a little later.

I like to lay a straight edge (a machinist's 6" ruler) along the flat side of front sights. I then look for the ruler to be parallel with the length of the slide. I also check for the front sight to be centered on the slide. Once I'm satisfied with the proper position of the front sight the rear can be addressed if required.

Drifting a rear sight can be done at the range without a sight pusher. I've done it, slide removed laying on a bench on it's side the direction you want the sight to move facing down. Tap with required force using either a brass rod or a piece of straight grain oak and a hammer.

[omega9]

I purchased one of these based of a PF thread a while back.

https://www.wyomingsightdrifter.com/store/product/wyoming-sight-drifter

It’s awesome.

[Chomps]

Ok,.. so I wasn’t entirely sure about the whole process, but if Im understanding everyone now? It’s entirely up to me and I am going to be the one to spend the range time and ammunition fiddling with the pistol to zero it after installation of aftermarket sights? Fine tuning zero is not a part of any paid, professional installation process for sights! 👍🏻

And,.. if I follow some of what I’ve read researching this,.. In order to adjust poa/poi elevation with dovetail type metal or plastic sights,.. I will have to dink around raising or lowering the front sight? And those adjustments are opposite of rear sight adjustments for how/where to move the round? (i.e. Raise the FS to lower poi, Lower the FS to lift poi!)

Thanks for the replies.

[whomever]

I purchased one of these based of a PF thread a while back.

https://www.wyomingsightdrifter.com/store/product/wyoming-sight-drifter

It’s awesome.

Are the brass tips on the base model replaceable, if a fellow with a machine shop wanted to make special ones?

[ubervic]

A competent gunsmith will install the front sight so that it is centered & aligned relative to the slide. Likewise, rear notch sight is installed so that it is centered, either using a sight pusher or with proper taps at left and/or right of the sight until it is centered in the sight dovetail/channel. Centering of rear sight is verified by eye, for a close-enough fit, or by using calipers, for a very accurate fit. Those are the fundamental tasks of proper sight alignment.

If, after verifying that the sights are properly installed and centered, one finds that shots are not landing where they should, one typically has an issue with marksmanship or hold (i.e., applying a 6 o'clock hold when sights are regulated to a drive-the-dot hold).

[Darth_Uno]

Ok,.. so I wasn’t entirely sure about the whole process, but if Im understanding everyone now? It’s entirely up to me and I am going to be the one to spend the range time and ammunition fiddling with the pistol to zero it after installation of aftermarket sights? Fine tuning zero is not a part of any paid, professional installation process for sights! 👍🏻

And,.. if I follow some of what I’ve read researching this,.. In order to adjust poa/poi elevation with dovetail type metal or plastic sights,.. I will have to dink around raising or lowering the front sight? And those adjustments are opposite of rear sight adjustments for how/where to move the round? (i.e. Raise the FS to lower poi, Lower the FS to lift poi!)

Thanks for the replies.

Correct on all points. If you just pay for installation of fixed sights, a good installer will make sure the front sight isn't canted or clocked, and the rear sight is simply centered left to right. Where the bullets actually hit can vary quite a bit based on ammo. I can take one of my 19's and 115gr ball, 150gr Syntech, and 124gr Gold Dots will all have a different POI. Sometimes even L to R, believe it or not.

Some may offer zeroing services with a specified ammo. Which is really only drifting the rear sight one way or the other. With a fixed front and rear, you can't really do much about raising or lowering POI.

And yes, to raise the POI you'd want a shorter front sight, and vice versa. I'm not aware of any adjustable front sight where you can actually raise and lower it, only adjustable rears. I believe it's Dawson or 10-8 that offers an overly tall plastic front sight that you can keep filing down to get the POI where you want it, then measure with calipers and order the correct height metal sight.

[mmc45414]

I believe it's Dawson or 10-8 that offers an overly tall plastic front sight that you can keep filing down to get the POI where you want it, then measure with calipers and order the correct height metal sight.
Dunno about the file down option, but Dawson will provide a single replacement front sight as part of your purchase if their recommended size does not hit point of impact.

[omega9]

Are the brass tips on the base model replaceable, if a fellow with a machine shop wanted to make special ones?

if you wanted to take the time to dissect it, I would think a machinist could make a new tip if it could be disassembled without breaking.

If the tip did break off you should be able to drill out the base of the tip, then tap the handle piece the tip and spring mate to. I just tried to get it out by hand and it didn’t budge.

[whomever]

if you wanted to take the time to dissect it, I would think a machinist could make a new tip if it could be disassembled without breaking.

If the tip did break off you should be able to drill out the base of the tip, then tap the handle piece the tip and spring mate to. I just tried to get it out by hand and it didn’t budge.


Thanks. I have the machine shop. I was curious whether the tip(s) would just slide in and out like the $105 model that comes with a set of interchangeable tips. It sounds like that's not the case.

(I'd rather buy the $35 model and make tips the exact shape and material I want ... the tips that come with the $105 model aren't necessarily the tips I want)

[Chomps]

If you don’t like the u notch I’m not sure how you would like the speed sights that have a notch that looks like \___/ that you put a triangle in the middle of. A parallel (though smaller) would be the sights on ww1 and 2 German mausers that everybody hates.

Do you have a specific problem with the current sights that you can articulate better? For example you can’t focus on the front sight, or the notch on the rear is too large or small in relation to the front sight.

I don’t seem to be very good at judging if that Tritium dot is equally spaced in that U notch. My groupings,.. especially with this pistol SUCK and are frequently erratic. Especially when I increase my rate of fire.
I generally do much better with the plastic OEM glock sights on my G19 or my Walther PDP with a Holosun 509T. 😁

Caballoflaco, those Mauser reminiscent sights you mentioned,.. Im wondering if you are referring to something similar to these type speed sights;

84810

IIR, I’ve seen those referred to as speed sights in other places. Sights with a sort of wide, blacked out, shallow v that you have to center a triangular or round shaped front sight in? If so,.. you’re correct in that I wouldn’t care for, or likely fare any better with sights like that!

So to answer your question, No,.. what Im considering switching to is this 3 diamond, interlocking shaped sights that visually,.. and supposedly quickly, LOCK together when properly aligned.

84811

With these sights, there doesn’t appear to be as much wiggle room or slack in the them to allow for easy misalignment or as much minor L/R,.. Up/Down deviation on a “Perfect” POA/POI sight alignment.

Additionally, they would appear to offer a somewhat more instinctual, quick, and potentially better accuracy sight picture for up close, Target focused,.. (read; “Oh SHIT! There’s A bad guy, point & BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG!)
…type, close quarters reaction!

Now im certainly “noob” enough to recognize that I could be Dead Wrong about these sights! (Pun intended).

But upon a cursory look, they would seem to offer a benefit over the Hellcats U notch or even traditional pistol sights. Particularly when compared to having Me & My old assed eyes try in vain to quickly (…and under stress) determine if I’ve got equal height, equal light? 😎🤣


I’d be curious to hear your thoughts. 👍🏻

[Chomps]

So,.. took my pistol to the only local range with an Armorer in residence,.. and fml, seems I got the apprentice!!

I took it to the steel target range this past weekend. Couldn’t hit SHITE with it.

The new sights are not quite centered on the slide. Neither Front or rear. Both are a tiny smidge L of center. (…odd considering all the tRump memorabilia in this place!) 😉 🤣🤣🤣😡

Anyway, jokes aside, he appears to have “Scribed” the slide on either side of the dovetail notch. It’s almost Like he measured it, marked it (…or scribed on either side of the OEM sight) and then slid the sights between the marks.

Set aside that Im pretty pissed he scratched up my slide,.. I had assumed, what with him being an armorer and all, and supposedly having ALL the proper tools to do so,…. That he would use something like a set of calipers to measure whether or not the sights were centered after Roughly centering or eyeballing them. THEN, finessing the final center & set.

I’m going back this weekend to have the OLD, GRAY HAIRED DUDE re-center my sights. NOT the 20-30 something kid that did this.

[the Schwartz]

So,.. took my pistol to the only local range with an Armorer in residence,.. and fml, seems I got the apprentice!!

I took it to the steel target range this past weekend. Couldn’t hit SHITE with it.

The new sights are not quite centered on the slide. Neither Front or rear. Both are a tiny smidge L of center. (…odd considering all the tRump memorabilia in this place!) 😉 🤣🤣🤣😡

Anyway, jokes aside, he appears to have “Scribed” the slide on either side of the dovetail notch. It’s almost Like he measured it, marked it (…or scribed on either side of the OEM sight) and then slid the sights between the marks.

Set aside that Im pretty pissed he scratched up my slide,.. I had assumed, what with him being an armorer and all, and supposedly having ALL the proper tools to do so,…. That he would use something like a set of calipers to measure whether or not the sights were centered after Roughly centering or eyeballing them. THEN, finessing the final center & set.

I’m going back this weekend to have the OLD, GRAY HAIRED DUDE re-center my sights. NOT the 20-30 something kid that did this.

It sounds to me like the shop you went to owes it to you to repair the damage that they did to your pistol's finish.

Over the course of the last 5 years, I have installed no less than 60 front and rear sight sets for friends, friends of friends, local law enforcement and associates. It's kind of a hobby that gives me a little extra spending money while allowing me to do something nice for friends and local law enforcement officers.

In doing so, never have I ever had to scratch a witness mark into the finish of a pistol.

The only tools needed for rear sight installation are a good set of gunsmithing files, wooden and plastic rods used for laterally drifting sites without damaging their finish, drift mallets with non-marking plastic, rubber, or brass faces, calipers, threadlocker, and a set of very small nut drivers for securing screws in front sights that are not drifted into dovetails.

[Binkius]

About 10% of my handguns were properly sighted from the factory.

The guns that don't have screw-adjustable sights go to a trusted, experienced gunsmith with a box or two of the carry ammo I will use for that gun (carry and range ammo may differ in POI). I ask that he centers the front sight on the slide for aesthetic reasons and do all the adjustments on the rear sight.

An experienced gunsmith will not leave any marks or damage.

[Chomps]

So,.. Hellcat just wasn’t putting rounds where it was supposed to with the new Speed sights. Even after the gunsmith supposedly centered them.

According to the company the Sight picture POA/POI What’s supposed to be the very tip of the center FS diamond. When I use that hold,, all my shots were Waaay low. If I went with a combat hold, covering the desired POA with the entire diamond, that brought the rounds up where they need to be, however I couldn’t be very precise with my POI.

I contacted the company and they were very helpful,… I did an entire series of tests with a pistol benched and several different sorts of ammunition even having one of the RSO‘s shoot the pistol, benched also. Using the same prescribed point of aim. And we definitely determined that it was shooting low. So the company agreed to send me a new higher rear sights to see if it raised up my POI.

Since the first two gunsmiths to work on my Hellcat were less than impressive,.. I decided to purchase a decent sight pusher snd give it a go myself.

…short story Long, 😉. I’m pretty sure I’ve got the sights dialed in damned close. There’s some L/R deflection in my benched groupings, but I think mostly thats me. Trigger & Grip issues maybe. But I Went from putting rounds all over the target, most 2”-4” low using the recommended tip of diamond hold. To hitting bullseyes & putting 3” groups together. (…now I just need to get where I can do that shooting offhand ) lol 😉

Here’s some images from a few sessions.

91801

91802

You can see, all the shots landing low.
91803

…After installing the new rear sights. Using same hold. Obviously I still need work on my shooting,.. but NOW? They’re in the same neighborhood Im aiming at finally. 🤣
91804
91808
91809

New pusher…
91805

91806