College scorecard

[peterb]

Looks useful. State schools aren’t necessarily the best deal.
———————
The Scorecard is an online trove of federal data that can help prospective students choose the college that's right for them – and, just maybe, avoid a lifetime of student debt and heartache.

The site, collegescorecard.ed.gov, can tell you a lot about a school – from its graduation rate and the earnings of former students, to how much debt you can expect to take on.

The updated scorecard lets you compare schools based on graduates' earnings, then see how those earnings compare to workers without a degree. It even shows how well a school serves its low-income students.

https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/15/1080773523/student-loans-financial-aid-tool-college-scorecard

[RoyGBiv]

While helping our youngest in his college search a few years ago, there were a few online resources that were especially helpful with identifying colleges to consider.... He knew what direction he wanted to pursue, but didn't know where he wanted to go...

https://www.scoir.com/students-families/pricing?hsLang=en-us

There's a bunch of data in Tableau as well, but, it can be a slog to wade through.
If your kid wants to study Physics... https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/bob3183/viz/PhysicsDegreesbyUniversity-2012Data/DegreesAwarded?publish=yes
If you're looking for a different degree.... Click the "Degrees Awarded" tab at the top left. Then select the desired major in the middle of the right-side menu.... Not at all intuitive, sorry.
Data source is 2012, so, if your kid wants to study something woke, you probably won't find it in there.. /snark

84574

Lots of data here as well... https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/use-the-data

[DDTSGM]

We used https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges But we were looking at smaller D1 and D2 schools for my daughter to seek scholarships for swimming and strings. Ended up at UN@Kearney.

[vcdgrips]

Scorecard is a a quality tool. That plus USNWR plus Google plus college confidential can give you a lay of the land.

Have done this party with my twins and any number of boys re Scouting. Have seen the process play out hundreds of times vicariously thru a 26+ yr association with a pre
K-12 College prep private school.

The five facets of college placement.

Location
Prestige
Value
Fit
Program

“We” put way too emphasis on prestige and location and not nearly enough on FIT and value.

“We’ think that college is for everybody, especially boys at 18-22.

“We” fail to acknowledge, that absent a finite number of schools and programs, there is a high degree of fungibility between schools and programs.

Having said that, particularly when contemplating application to Tier 1 schools and programs, “we” should solve the problems we have. If your student does not get it, then cost is not a factor.

If they are admitted, “need” at these schools tend to be defined much more broadly than you would think and family units with 6 figure AGIs/home ownership and retirement are still getting significant free aid and often access to low interest loans.

I cannot prove it, as I only have a finite amt of anecdotes, but it seems to me that in many scenarios, those schools (often retail 65K +) know that your flagship state school costs 25 k. They will put together a pkg that make it plus/minus 10%-25% of the state school retail such that when the dust settles it might be 25 k to Washington University v 20K
for University of Missouri. If the kid wants to be a business major, Wash U is probably the better call and worth the extra, if the kid wants to major in journalism, MU is the call.


In STEM majors, I think it can get a bit foggier and can be much more situationally dependent re costs/value. Any upper 25% (3.5) grad of any home state public engineering program is not going to have a problem landing a job such that his family spending 3x more to go out of state (i.e. GA Tech/Purdue or Private i.e. Carnegie Mellon, Notre Dame) is probably not worth it and would even be tough call to make even when compared to MIT.

I had a Scout in this very position (10K all in, to go to Missouri S & T (Rolla School of Mines) v 30 ish to go to MIT. He picked Rolla, did well and works with a 3 Billion dollar regional firm based in KC though he is all over the world.

Happy to talk off line.

[Bergeron]

I made my choices, and would encourage others, to choose minimum financial burden for the degree sought, at least in the STEM fields.

A BS in physics, or biology, or chemistry, or any of the broadly recognized STEM fields (also thinking of ME, EE, Civ E, etc.) is one and the same anywhere, in terms of value or knowledge provided as any "elite school" diploma. Certain employers do have university preferences, I know that it was easier to get hired on to Shell as an Aggie (I made it happen anyways), or into NSWC Dahlgren as a VT grad (I made it happen anyway), if that matters to the situation.

It costs to go out-of-state. So I stayed in-state, and I used the state's scholarship fund, and my dad's employer's scholarship, and a scholarship from the university, to get a full ride. It pays to sit down and figure out all of the different scholarship applications, and apply for them. I went to the only in-state school that gave back as a semester-frequent check, any scholarship monies above and beyond tuition, and room & board. I didn't even bother applying anywhere else. Money talks.

I got a dorm room, and the cheapest meal plan, that fed you cafeteria food whenever you wanted to eat, but forbade you from the fast-food & coffee joints. Whatever. When I didn't have homework or classes, I went to the library and tore apart every journal or book that interested me. I didn't keep girlfriends. It might've been too boring of a life for most, but it got valuable degree put into my hands in 4 years, and I literally got paid to receive it.

Graduate school is, of course, an entirely different story.

[orionz06]

Certain employers do have university preferences, I know that it was easier to get hired on to Shell as an Aggie (I made it happen anyways), or into NSWC Dahlgren as a VT grad (I made it happen anyway), if that matters to the situation.


This is often overlooked. Sometimes overrated, but there are fields and employers that have some doors more open for certain schools.

[littlejerry]

With regards to engineering, I and the other hiring managers at my company place significantly higher value on relevant work experience from internships and/or co-ops than the particular university or GPA. In my group we will not hire a new grad unless they interned or co-oped in school.

[TheRoland]

In STEM majors, I think it can get a bit foggier and can be much more situationally dependent re costs/value. Any upper 25% (3.5) grad of any home state public engineering program is not going to have a problem landing a job such that his family spending 3x more to go out of state (i.e. GA Tech/Purdue or Private i.e. Carnegie Mellon, Notre Dame) is probably not worth it and would even be tough call to make even when compared to MIT.




A BS in physics, or biology, or chemistry, or any of the broadly recognized STEM fields (also thinking of ME, EE, Civ E, etc.) is one and the same anywhere, in terms of value or knowledge provided as any "elite school" diploma. Certain employers do have university preferences, I know that it was easier to get hired on to Shell as an Aggie (I made it happen anyways), or into NSWC Dahlgren as a VT grad (I made it happen anyway), if that matters to the situation.


I don't know that I totally agree with this. A new EE or CS/CE grad who can rub two rocks together can make $100k anywhere, but in the Valley or in the Boston/NYC finance sector you can make twice that in a first job. And you get those jobs from your roommate at Stanford and MIT. "Situational" is a good description.

The college scorecard median incomes seem really really low, to me, for top tier STEM colleges. I suspect non-graduates and maybe the life sciences :p are dragging those down.

[Bergeron]

To clarify- “what you learn” for a BS in the hard sciences or engineering stays the same, be it from a public state school all the way to an Ivy- just look at the curriculum. The network for the highest paying entry level jobs might be something else.

[littlejerry]

To clarify- “what you learn” for a BS in the hard sciences or engineering stays the same, be it from a public state school all the way to an Ivy- just look at the curriculum. The network for the highest paying entry level jobs might be something else.

The curriculum is usually very similar, however there can be significant differences in how practical application is taught. There are also big swings in determining and rating competency.

Frankly anyone can go out and buy the text books to get an engineering degree. Hell, you can even find online lecture for free(I used to watch free MIT lectures when I needed help in certain classes).

As an employer the supposed value of a degree is that it certifies that the person knows understands the field. That seems to be the case less and less in engineering which is why we only hire students with relevant work experience (and good references).

[peterb]

The Scorecard does a good job showing that the "elite" institutions are often very affordable for lower-income families because of the financial aid offered. A lot of families are scared off by the reputations and sticker prices.

Here's MIT:

84692

Big names certainly don't ensure a better education, but they shouldn't be automatically dismissed for financial reasons.

[Sensei]

It is true that the sticker price and incurred debt for higher education have skyrocketed over the past 30 years. However, there are plenty of mechanisms to mitigate this for those who are bright and hardworking. The predatory education environment largely feeds on morons and ideologues. It is people who major in urban studies, literature, environmental science, etc. who are victims. My only concern for these people is that the bright and hardworking will eventually foot the defaulted bill incurred by the morons and ideologues.

[vcdgrips]

Sensei says:

"The predatory education environment largely feeds on morons and ideologues. It is people who major in urban studies, literature, environmental science, etc. who are victims."


I would humbly assert that this is situationally dependant. Graduates (Particularly Dean's List or better (3.6ish+) with those degrees from Tier 1 institutions typically do just fine. That cannot be said when said graduate has the same GPA from a directional state school I fully acknowledge.

Hypothetically speaking, I know of an English/Urban Studies May 22 Grad from a Tier 1 school. Dean's List. Less than 20K in total debt (I happen to believe that kids should have to take out a bit of a loan as it puts their skin the game and builds their credit on the back end. Nothing precludes a kind parent from help with those payments) over a 320K education given her work to get admitted in the first place, the generosity of the institution, her parents and her working ( first summer waiting tables, soph year to sr year-remote internship with boutique placement firm)

Job offers: 1.5-2x higher than the average of the Zipper Recruiter models (47K-57k) re both majors are easily obtained with such credentials in finance, headhunting, marketing, sales etc. for an Urban Studies major from U Chicago/Columbia/Stanford etc.

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Urban-Studies-Salary

The "connections" these kids make at these schools and the prestige factor that obtains when they come "home" may, in some cases, be worth taking on the debt load when your initial job simply requires a 4 yr degree.

In non-STEM, I have counseled that the debt load taken on for a 4 yr degree should not exceed the avg starting salary in the field absent graduation from a Tier 1 school. i.e. Avg starting salary for a teacher is 35k = 35k max loans.

I have seen the horror stories re student loan debt. I readily concede that letting a kid go to a U cal state school as an out of stater school to major in urban studies or environmental science taking on 100K in debt for a 35K job on the back end does not make good sense. Particularly when they did not slay the grades. This also happens at private schools who have sig name recognition but are not particularly generous across the board i.e. Baylor, Notre Dame, Pepperdine, Howard etc.

[Sensei]

Sensei says…

I would humbly assert that this is situationally dependant.

There is a reason why I used the word largely instead of exclusively.

[vcdgrips]

Fair point kind Sir.

[RoyGBiv]

Also notable....

Many state schools (and some private, we found) post their scholarships and qualifications on their websites. If your grades are X and your SAT is Y, then you qualify for Z scholarship. For kids with good grades and test scores, an out of state public university (although not California) may be in reach financially. And you know before you apply.

Here's a good example from Alabama.
https://scholarships.ua.edu/ (links at bottom of page)
https://scholarships.ua.edu/freshman/out-of-state/

2022 Out-of-State Freshman Automatic Merit Scholarships



Scholarship
Test Score
GPA
Yearly Value


Presidential
32-36 ACT or 1420-1600 SAT
3.50+
$28,000


UA Scholar
30-31 ACT or 1360-1410 SAT
3.50+
$24,000


Foundation in Excellence
29 ACT or 1330-1350 SAT
3.50+
$15,000


Foundation in Excellence
30-36 ACT or 1360-1600 SAT
3.00-3.49
$15,000


Collegiate
28 ACT or 1300-1320 SAT
3.50+
$10,000


Capstone
27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT
3.50+
$8,000


Capstone
28-29 ACT or 1300-1350 SAT
3.00-3.49
$8,000


Crimson Legends
25-26 ACT or 1200-1250 SAT
3.50+
$6,000


Crimson Legends
27 ACT or 1260-1290 SAT
3.00-3.49
$6,000





Also..... If you, your spouse and your kid want to be able to chill the f-k out about "OMG what if I don't get in anywhere", apply to Alabama. Acceptance rate is very high, application is inexpensive, you get accepted/declined very quickly (a few days, IIRC).

It's amazing how chill a kid gets once they get their first yes.