US diplomats attacked in Mexico [Archive]

JodyH

08-24-2012, 05:49 PM

Mexico is a dangerous craphole of a country.
If the diplomats were attacked by cartel gunmen this is a major escalation in the drug war.
Should be interesting to see how much play this gets by the US media.

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2012/08/mexico-city-3-us-marines-or-diplomats.html

A U.S. Embassy vehicle was attacked today south of Mexico City, and Mexican Federal Police also shot at the SUV during a confusing gunbattle, the Mexican Navy reports.
Two U.S. government personnel were wounded.

Kyle Reese

08-25-2012, 02:25 AM

I can see it being played out in the US media in one of two ways:

-Evil American guns caused this attack.

or

-Nothing to see here, move along folks.

Jason F

08-25-2012, 07:14 AM

....
-Nothing to see here, move along folks.

Watched the 11 o'clock news last night (local), which I rarely do. Didn't see a blip about this incident, but there was all kinds of crap about the NYC shooting. Sigh....

JodyH

08-25-2012, 09:34 AM

Mexico is playing it off as a case of mistaken identity.
Which is complete crap.
This was a cartel hit, either by "real" Federales on the cartel payroll or "fake" Federales on the cartel payroll.
My guess is these "diplomats" were DEA and/or the Mexican(s) they were transporting was a rival cartel Jefe.

A direct attack on US diplomats in a directly neighboring country gets practically zero play on the national news... pathetic.

TGS

08-25-2012, 10:02 AM

Corey

08-26-2012, 10:16 PM

Here is the coverage in Mexico City's major paper "El Universal"
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/866452.html
They article is pretty straightforward, just the known facts reporting with little speculation. The state that 12 federal police officers have been detained pending investigation and that the initial statements by the police was that it was a case of mistaken identity and they thought the vehicle (displaying diplomatic plates) was a kidnapping crew they had been on the lookout for. They also report the statement by the U.S. embassy describing the attack as an "ambush".

Evenhanded reporting, but if you can read Spanish the comments will make your head explode :mad:. It appears we are not well liked down south.

JodyH

08-27-2012, 06:56 AM

The cartels own the Federales.
This was no mistake.

Of course Mexicans hate us, our asinine "war on drugs" is destroying their country (and ours).

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NickA

08-27-2012, 09:39 AM

TGS

08-27-2012, 11:22 AM

I think I posted this elsewhere, but we've been debating going to a wedding later this year in San Luis Potosi, which I didn't think was a cartel hot spot, but was still leary of going there. Two weeks ago they found a van with 14 dismembered bodies in it, and the mayor-elect was assassinated literally 2 blocks from where my in-laws were staying, in front of the place where the wedding would probably be held.
Lesson learned - no place is safe down there, and we won't be traveling there unless it's an extreme family emergency.

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By this same reasoning, you shouldn't be in the US either because there's some pretty violent places here as well. So, the next time you look at the news you should be having the same "no place is safe in the USA" revelation.

Obviously if the violence is spreading to San Luis Potosi, then don't go to San Luis Potosi. I'd hardly let that keep me from heading to the Yucatan, Puerto Vallarta, or some of the other amazing beach towns if they decide to hold the wedding there......towns which haven't seen cartel violence, and some of which are statistically safer than the majority of the US.

NickA

08-27-2012, 11:29 AM

By this same reasoning, you shouldn't be in the US either because there's some pretty violent places here as well. So, the next time you look at the news you should be having the same "no place is safe in the USA" revelation.

Believe me, figured that one out a long time ago. Somehow I'm just more comfortable here where the threat probably won't be multiple opponents, armed with full auto weapons, possibly in body armor, and likely operating with police sanction.

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TGS

08-27-2012, 11:48 AM

Believe me, figured that one out a long time ago. Somehow I'm just more comfortable here where the threat probably won't be multiple opponents, armed with full auto weapons, possibly in body armor, and likely operating with police sanction.

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I guess I just don't agree with labeling an entire country as unsafe when it isn't factually true. Especially when I know people living there as commoners, not just tourists or wealthy expats. I realize that not everywhere in the world enjoys the freedoms and protections as the US...I guess I'm just "living on the edge" by traveling outside our country's borders where the rest of humanity has resided for thousands of years.

RoyGBiv

08-27-2012, 11:59 AM

I guess I just don't agree with labeling an entire country as unsafe when it isn't factually true. Especially when I know people living there as commoners, not just tourists or wealthy expats. I realize that not everywhere in the world enjoys the freedoms and protections as the US...I guess I'm just "living on the edge" by traveling outside our country's borders where the rest of humanity has resided for thousands of years.

You're "living on the edge" living in NJ.... Especially if you're anywhere near Camden. :D
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/24/camden-nj-to-reboot-police-department-by-new-year/

Honestly...... I'm not a big fan of Mexico. Beautiful coastlines, warm-hearted people... But I managed a warehouse in Guadalajara a few years ago and find it nearly impossible to do honest, every-day business in Mexico.... and 50% of the time I traveled there got sick from eating the (otherwise very delicious) food. Add in the narco crime and you can keep it. It's too easy to travel elsewhere to justify going to Mexico unless it's unavoidable.

I've visited 49 US States, every Canadian province and Territory except Nunavut, Prince Edward and Newfoundland, and have lots of other foreign stamps in my passports. Mexico is my least favorite place to visit. YMMV

NickA

08-27-2012, 12:11 PM

I guess I just don't agree with labeling an entire country as unsafe when it isn't factually true. Especially when I know people living there as commoners, not just tourists or wealthy expats. I realize that not everywhere in the world enjoys the freedoms and protections as the US...I guess I'm just "living on the edge" by traveling outside our country's borders where the rest of humanity has resided for thousands of years.

I'm definitely not saying you're wrong- bad stuff happens everywhere, and the worst case scenario down there really isn't that likely, but it's more likely than here in the US. It's just where my personal appraisal of the facts leads me, having to take into account that I'll be responsible for my wife and child, that I stand out like a sore thumb down there, that I don't necessarily know the places to avoid, and that I'll be significantly less equipped to deal with a lot of situations since I'd be unarmed. Is it really more dangerous than in the US? Probably not, but the risks don't outweigh the benefits, for me.
We have literally dozens of family members in various parts of Mexico, including one that was kidnapped and held for a week by (presumably) cartel soldiers, as a message to their neighborhood to stay out of the way and stay quiet. It's sad to hear them talk about the state of their country, and their knowledge that the government doesn't seem to want to change anything, and there's damn little they themselves can do.

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TGS

08-27-2012, 01:38 PM

You're "living on the edge" living in NJ.... Especially if you're anywhere near Camden. :D
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/24/camden-nj-to-reboot-police-department-by-new-year/

I'm about a half hour north of Camden, in Trenton. You know Camden is really bad when people from Trenton talk about how bad Camden is (EMS and Firefighters wear body armor here in Trenton, if that says anything).

Honestly...... I'm not a big fan of Mexico. Beautiful coastlines, warm-hearted people... But I managed a warehouse in Guadalajara a few years ago and find it nearly impossible to do honest, every-day business in Mexico.... and 50% of the time I traveled there got sick from eating the (otherwise very delicious) food. Add in the narco crime and you can keep it. It's too easy to travel elsewhere to justify going to Mexico unless it's unavoidable.

And that makes sense on why you don't want to visit Mexico. Totally different thought process than: there's violence in some parts of Mexico, therefore all of Mexico is unsafe and should be avoided. Northern Ireland used to be subject to insurgency....that doesn't mean Ireland was unsafe. The port areas of Israel are subject to Russian gang related violence, yet most of Israel has very little violent crime and can be a great place to visit. The fact that paramilitary forces of Mexican cartels openly operate on and control US soil doesn't mean all of the US is subject to that. Newark, NJ is full of homeless people, hookers and crackbums that will poo anywhere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U7kuqow3gg), but 10 miles away there's places so idyllic and safe that I wouldn't be surprised if unicorns were prancing down the street.

John Ralston

08-27-2012, 03:51 PM

but 10 miles away there's places so idyllic and safe that I wouldn't be surprised if unicorns were prancing down the street.

I am pretty sure this pic was taken in NJ...

http://www.stillbjorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/WTFunicorn.jpg

I have no desire to go to Mexico either...

ToddG

08-27-2012, 04:52 PM

Comparing Mexico's crime & violence to the U.S.'s crime & violence is a tough sell IMHO. Take Nick's comment about a town that recently was considered quite nice for tourists:
"Two weeks ago they found a van with 14 dismembered bodies in it, and the mayor-elect was assassinated..."

Show me any city in the U.S. where that has happened. When is the last time more than a dozen victims of gang violence were found killed at one time? When is the last time a U.S. mayor (or mayor-elect) was assassinated?

Would anyone like to guess what percentage of Mexican law enforcement officers are also working in some capacity for the cartels? Does anyone think that number comes even close to U.S. LEOs who are involved in criminal activity?

The fact that bad things happen in the U.S. (and/or New Jersey) doesn't in any way diminish the crime-driven anarchy that plagues Mexico at every level of society and government.

I bet people get mugged in Hawaii, too, but for my money I think I'd rather vacation there...

Mjolnir

08-27-2012, 05:26 PM

The cartels own the Federales.
This was no mistake.

Of course Mexicans hate us, our asinine "war on drugs" is destroying their country (and ours).

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I spend two weeks out of a month in Mexico and your statements are ridiculous.

They have been nothing but warm. They seem to think that we tend to be rude and cold. Being from the Deep South I find many Americans to be similar...

Just about 1 month ago several Mexican politicians accused the US of managing the drug trade. This was part of the mass protests that our media ignored.

Mjolnir

08-27-2012, 05:42 PM

Here is the coverage in Mexico City's major paper "El Universal"
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/866452.html

Evenhanded reporting, but if you can read Spanish the comments will make your head explode :mad:. It appears we are not well liked down south.

Depends. Some of my coworkers are insulting to my senses; offensive even. If the SHTF I'd probably refuse to assist many of them. We travel often into Mexico (Hermosillo) and they do not like the attitudes of the same ones whose attitudes I despise.

They did ask if I always said "Thank You" and "Please" and that I was different than the others. I told them that I was from the Deep South and they were from the Midwest. I told them that it took a while for me to adjust to them, too.

They also remarked that I was the only "el Norte" who ate in the cafeteria, tried to speak and learn Spanish. Anything I needed they responded favorably.

They welcomed me to their homes.

The second visit I teased them about their racial makeup compared to mine (Creole; Black to mainstream America) and how they did not embrace the Seris, Yaqui, Mayan, Toltec and/or Aztec heritage. This is in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico.

So when I travel there I don't get the "gringo go home" attitude - not even from the LEO who I try to engage in Spanish.

The women are wonderful, too; exceedingly feminine. Very irresistible.

TGS

08-27-2012, 06:27 PM

I am pretty sure this pic was taken in NJ...

http://www.stillbjorn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/WTFunicorn.jpg

I have no desire to go to Mexico either...

John Ralston wins the thread.

Comparing Mexico's crime & violence to the U.S.'s crime & violence is a tough sell IMHO. Take Nick's comment about a town that recently was considered quite nice for tourists:
"Two weeks ago they found a van with 14 dismembered bodies in it, and the mayor-elect was assassinated..."

Show me any city in the U.S. where that has happened. When is the last time more than a dozen victims of gang violence were found killed at one time? When is the last time a U.S. mayor (or mayor-elect) was assassinated?

Would anyone like to guess what percentage of Mexican law enforcement officers are also working in some capacity for the cartels? Does anyone think that number comes even close to U.S. LEOs who are involved in criminal activity?

The fact that bad things happen in the U.S. (and/or New Jersey) doesn't in any way diminish the crime-driven anarchy that plagues Mexico at every level of society and government.

I bet people get mugged in Hawaii, too, but for my money I think I'd rather vacation there...

Totally not anything to do with my point.

JodyH

08-27-2012, 06:43 PM

I spend two weeks out of a month in Mexico and your statements are ridiculous
Get back to me when you've lived on the border for 42 years.

Mjolnir

08-27-2012, 07:20 PM

Get back to me when you've lived on the border for 42 years.

Then you should know the people who cross the border are primarily from SOUTHERN Mexico not from Northern Sonora. Hermosillo has six universities and there is a large middle class relative to the southern cities.

I once thought that Mexico was a "monolithic" cultured place. I know better now.

The drug trade is what it is and it deprives both the user and seller all the same. To think any differently is to not know the peoples who live there.

TGS

08-27-2012, 07:38 PM

Then you should know the people who cross the border are primarily from SOUTHERN Mexico not from Northern Sonora. Hermosillo has six universities and there is a large middle class relative to the southern cities.

I once thought that Mexico was a "monolithic" cultured place. I know better now.

The drug trade is what it is and it deprives both the user and seller all the same. To think any differently is to not know the peoples who live there.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I don't think JodyH is making commentary on Mexican customs/courtesies or social issues. It was pretty clear to me that he accused the Mexican police force as being compromised......

bobn

08-27-2012, 08:47 PM

Evenhanded reporting, but if you can read Spanish the comments will make your head explode :mad:. It appears we are not well liked down south.

If I was them, I'd hate us too. Our stupid drug laws fueled these cartels. Now, it's gone beyond crime - I think Mexico is essentially in a civil war. In one state, the cartels have openly tried to extort money from every teacher.

And Fast and Furious was icing on the cake.

Mjolnir

08-28-2012, 05:23 AM

Actually, one of the Mexican members of government stated that the US gov't is MANAGING THE CARTELS AND DRUG TRADE. This was about one month ago.

Everyone could learn a lot about some of the things that go on behind closed doors. At home. No one I spoke to discounted the statements. Of course, other members of government stated that his claim was "ridiculous". Of course.

Look up Gary Webb and Barry Seal on YouTube. There are others, too. So if the Mexican public believes the cartels are being managed then I retract my statements about their general "dislike" of US citizens.

Chemsoldier

08-29-2012, 01:45 PM

The plot thickens...The diplomats might have been agency guys: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/world/americas/americans-shot-in-mexico-were-cia-operatives.html

In the end it doesnt make a lot of difference to me. A lot of operatives are simply doing low profile versions of the Foreign Internal Defense missions that SF have been doing all over the world for years. If anyone needs FID assistance and has compelling national interest for us, its Mexico. That they were intelligence operatives makes it hard to say. Going after them makes a lot of sense, but on the other hand its a mental trap to think coincidences never happen to people just because they work for a particular entity.