How Has The VP9 Fared In Large Agency Police/MIL Testing? [Archive]

Thy.Will.Be.Done

02-10-2022, 01:29 PM

MasterBlaster

02-10-2022, 03:51 PM

Characterizing "reports of problems with VP9 [sic]" as being "less than stellar" implies that such reports are weak and without merit, and that the VP9 is problem-free. But I'm assuming you mean the opposite. Can you provide references for these reports you speak of? Are we talking about objective evidence or Jimbob's YouTube video where he dumps the gun in a bucket of mud and tries to fire it?

JHC

02-10-2022, 04:04 PM

There was a PF member who reported his department adopting it back when it was the rage and the final boss Glock killer.

Archer1440

02-11-2022, 12:45 PM

The SFP9-M beat the Glock 17(3rd place in trials) and the Beretta APX (2nd place in trials) in Japan’s trials to replace their long-in-the-tooth Minebea P9 (licensed Made in Japan copies of the SIG P220) for their Self-Defense Forces Special Forces unit.

The SFP9-M is identical to the VP9 non-optic models sold in the USA (exact same trigger system, trigger weight, paddle mag release) but with special internal and external coatings for long-term saltwater exposure.

In particular, the proof marks and serial numbers are blacked out, due to the extra coating. The left side of the slide also bears an engraved anchor and trident. And, there are more cocking serrations on the slide (5 front and 9 rear vs 4 front and 5 rear on VP9). They also have the “stepped” charging supports found on some VP9 models.

Notably, the striker spring washers (cups) for this model are the same part number as the current production VP9’s sold in the USA. (260489)

In addition, at least 2000 standard specification SFP9 pistols were delivered to and used by various Japanese police agencies for security at the Tokyo Olympic Games.

I would say that speaks well for the platform.

KevH

02-11-2022, 01:17 PM

H&K hasn't been competitive in the US law enforcement market in a couple decades instead going after large Federal government contracts. They don't even make an attempt to compete in municipal and state agencies.

Most municipal and state agencies don't "torture test" pistols like everyone on the internet seems to think. Usually, it has much more to do with relationships and pricing.

Glock dominates the market because of the support they offer from A to Z with the product (T&E, competitive pricing, trade-in, training classes, quick and responsive on-going support, low-cost upgrade, proactive aftermarket support, etc.). Smith & Wesson is right behind them with SIG probably coming in third. FN is working at entering the market, but the product is not nearly as easy to deal with. Walther on a very small scale is working to enter the market, but I don't have high hopes for their success.

Most municipal PD's don't care about "elements" testing (mud, saltwater, sand) as much as they care about safety, serviceability, shoot-ability (can our folks pass a qual), longevity and support over the lifetime of the product.

If a guy falls into a canal or swimming pool (rare, but I've dealt with this on multiple occasions) I care that:

1) The pistol will work briefly for the time it is needed.
2) I can clean it back into service rapidly.

It also matters when some dummy detail strips their gun at home over the weekend and shows up at the PD with a ziplock bag full of parts (happens more often than you would think).

Glocks take seconds to completely detail strip and re-assemble and only requires a 3/32 punch (or a Bic pen in a pinch...been there, done that). Easy peasy.

The 2.0 S&W M&P is right behind it and the SIG P320 is right behind that (the P365 is much more complicated). Both require a punch and a hammer.

The FN 509 requires a jig or press to fully detail strip without damaging it and uses one-use roll pins (no thanks). I haven't stripped a Walther yet, but I imagine it's more complex than the M&P.

I picked up a H&K VP9 OR last August and ran it in a class for weekend with about 800 rounds fired. From the box to the class I just added a little lube. Not one malfunction. My sample of one shoots just fine and I haven't had time to go through an armorers' class yet or detail strip it so I can't tell you what it looks like internally (but knowing H&K it's probably more complex than a Glock of S&W). My impression of the gun was just "Meh...." It does nothing better than a Gen5 Glock or M&P 2.0 does, costs quite a bit more, and lacks aftermarket support (holsters).

So there you go...

Brianjkeene

02-11-2022, 01:26 PM

H&K hasn't been competitive in the US law enforcement market in a couple decades instead going after large Federal government contracts. They don't even make an attempt to compete in municipal and state agencies.

Most municipal and state agencies don't "torture test" pistols like everyone on the internet seems to think. Usually, it has much more to do with relationships and pricing.

Glock dominates the market because of the support they offer from A to Z with the product (T&E, competitive pricing, trade-in, training classes, quick and responsive on-going support, low-cost upgrade, proactive aftermarket support, etc.). Smith & Wesson is right behind them with SIG probably coming in third. FN is working at entering the market, but the product is not nearly as easy to deal with. Walther on a very small scale is working to enter the market, but I don't have high hopes for their success.

Most municipal PD's don't care about "elements" testing (mud, saltwater, sand) as much as they care about safety, serviceability, shoot-ability (can our folks pass a qual), longevity and support over the lifetime of the product.

If a guy falls into a canal or swimming pool (rare, but I've dealt with this on multiple occasions) I care that:

1) The pistol will work briefly for the time it is needed.
2) I can clean it back into service rapidly.

It also matters when some dummy detail strips their gun at hope over the weekend and shows up at the PD with a ziplock bag full of parts (happens more often than you would think)

Glocks take seconds to completely detail strip and re-assemble and only requires a 3/32 punch (or a Bic pen in a pinch...been there, done that). Easy peasy.

The 2.0 S&W M&P is right behind it and the SIG P320 is right behind that (the P365 is much more complicated). Both require a punch and a hammer.

The FN 509 requires a jig or press to fully detail strip without damaging it and uses one use roll pins (no thanks). I haven't stripped a Walther yet, but I imagine it's more complex than the M&P.

I picked up a H&K VP9 OR last August and ran it in a class for weekend with about 800 rounds fired. From the box to the class I just added a little lube. Not one malfunction. My sample of one shoots just fine and I haven't had time to go through an armorers' class yet or detail strip it so I can't tell you what it looks like internally (but knowing H&K it's probably more complex than a Glock of S&W). My impression of the gun was just "Meh...." It does nothing better than a Gen5 Glock or M&P 2.0 does, costs quite a bit more, and lacks aftermarket support (holsters).

So there you go...

The Walther is easier than the M2.0 / by a decent margin in my opinion. I’ve settled on PDPs and M2.0s for my striker guns and I am blown away by the trigger group on the PDP. It’s simpler, fewer in parts, and easier to work in than the M2.0.

KevH

02-11-2022, 01:34 PM

The Walther is easier than the M2.0 / by a decent margin in my opinion. I’ve settled on PDPs and M2.0s for my striker guns and I am blown away by the trigger group on the PDP. It’s simpler, fewer in parts, and easier to work in than the M2.0.

That's good to hear, but I'm not super optimistic about them being a major player in the US LE market. They started off strong with the influencer crowd when the PDP came out and they may have a decent product, but the list of agencies that have adopted them is very minimal, almost all local to their company and they've already had to suspend their IOP program.

FN did well getting LAPD's contract (they sold the guns for under $200 a unit beating the two brands they were competing with on price), but I think it will be a fairly short lived relationship.

I could be wrong though.

Archer1440

02-11-2022, 02:53 PM

Glock dominates the market because of the support they offer from A to Z with the product

Also, strippers. You left out strippers.

TGS

02-11-2022, 04:29 PM

Maybe Luger has information he can share? I believe he's part of a law enforcement agency of over 30,000 officers that uses the VP9.

Polecat

02-11-2022, 04:36 PM

KevH

02-11-2022, 04:58 PM

HK needs to just update and tweek the Glock design, swallow their pride, and do what Shadow Systems did! I for one would love an HK styled and gone over, revised and tweeked gun. They could offer it in L,C, SC. They would likely use metal mags, allowing for a mor trim design.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with the VP9 since they did their 2020 update.

It's just that it doesn't offer anything that great over the other offerings I wouldn't be mad if I were forced to carry one.

It just makes very little sense for a US LE agency to adopt it over the other cheaper and slightly simpler offerings.

The reality is that most of the polymer striker fired guns are all kind of the same. Yeah, each has their own twist or gimmick on the original Glock design, but they are all more similar than they are different and all shoot sort of the same. So it really comes down to who has the best price, support and easiest to maintain design.

KevH

02-11-2022, 05:04 PM

Also, strippers. You left out strippers.

I've been involved in lots of government procurement processes over the years.

It's usually a guy in khaki pants and a polo handing out mediocre swag like thumb drives and hats.

Strippers have never been involved. I feel gypped!

(and I know what you're talking about)

Luger

02-11-2022, 05:21 PM

Maybe Luger has information he can share? I believe he's part of a law enforcement agency of over 30,000 officers that uses the VP9.

I carry the SFP-9 TR (VP9) as service weapon and own a SFP-9 SF for target shooting. After firing about 2.500 rounds I have not experienced one single problem.
I'm not aware of any problems within the bavarian state police with the SFP 9 TR. All malfunctions I have seen with my coworkers guns were caused by limpwristing.
I'm a big fan of Glocks, but meanwhile I really LOVE my SFP-9 and prefer it over the Glock as a service weapon.

Greg Bell

02-11-2022, 11:54 PM

Also, strippers. You left out strippers.

the "Gold Club"...the secret ingredient of Glock Perfection

P30

02-12-2022, 04:07 AM

The HK SFP9 meanwhile is one of the most frequent police pistols in Germany - probably the most frequent.

Wikipedia article about service pistols in Germany (Google-translated) (https://www-wikiwand-com.translate.goog/de/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

A pistol is tested thoroughly according to "TR Pistolen (https://www.dhpol.de/microsite/pti/medien/downloads/richtlinien/technische-richtlinien/pistole/TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf)" before it can become a police pistol in Germany. TR = "Technische Richtlinie" = technical directive. The TR specifies properties of the pistol and how in detail it is tested.

Luger

02-12-2022, 04:56 AM

As far as I remember the TR testing includes firing 50.000 rounds with five guns (10.000 rounds each) an there may only be 2 malfunctions in 1.000 rounds with each gun.

If I think about the results of the 2.000 round challenge, this seems to be an acceptable quote.

Additionally Bavaria did it's own testing of certified police guns (H&K VP9, SIG P320, Glock 46 and Walther PPQ), which the VP9 clearly won.

Edit: Just checked the TR, it's just 35.000 rounds.

Bucky

02-12-2022, 05:14 AM

I'm not aware of any problems within the bavarian state police with the SFP 9 TR. All malfunctions I have seen with my coworkers guns were caused by limpwristing.

Some may tend to disagree, but I still consider this a gun problem. Aside from something that blocks or slows slide movement, a gun should function reliably regardless of grip, IMO.

When I vet my guns, this is a test I do.

YMMV.

P30

02-12-2022, 08:47 AM

When I vet my guns, this is a test I do.

Glock 17 does not pass a limp wrist test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

As far as I remember, the CZ75 with its heavy steel frame does. But most polymer-frame guns don't.

Glock 17 limp wrist failure in slow-motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka556--WF2o)

Thy.Will.Be.Done

02-12-2022, 09:50 AM

Some may tend to disagree, but I still consider this a gun problem. Aside from something that blocks or slows slide movement, a gun should function reliably regardless of grip, IMO.

When I vet my guns, this is a test I do.

YMMV.

It's a design problem which has to almost be accepted in polymer framed guns firing smaller cartridges, the .40 and .45 seem to be much more tolerant of this both in H&K and Glock pistols. How many times have we seen Glock malfunctions under the stress of actual police shootings? I'd wager a fair to large amount of them are a result of 'taking what you can get' in terms of grip on the pistol and just running it how it came from the holster and not consciously remembering to grasp it firmly. I still like .40 for this reason, I'd wager 10/1 of those stoppages are with 9mm vs other larger calibers if someone ran the numbers.

Bucky

02-12-2022, 04:33 PM

Glock 17 does not pass a limp wrist test:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA

As far as I remember, the CZ75 with its heavy steel frame does. But most polymer-frame guns don't.

Glock 17 limp wrist failure in slow-motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka556--WF2o)

It's a design problem which has to almost be accepted in polymer framed guns firing smaller cartridges, the .40 and .45 seem to be much more tolerant of this both in H&K and Glock pistols. How many times have we seen Glock malfunctions under the stress of actual police shootings? I'd wager a fair to large amount of them are a result of 'taking what you can get' in terms of grip on the pistol and just running it how it came from the holster and not consciously remembering to grasp it firmly. I still like .40 for this reason, I'd wager 10/1 of those stoppages are with 9mm vs other larger calibers if someone ran the numbers.

Fortunately, when I vetted my G19 it passed without incident. Of course you need to shoot ammo akin to what you will be carrying. Factory 115g ammo can tend to be a bit light compared to serious carry ammo, and it's where I see so may issues with polymer duty guns with factory springs. Even some 124 factory ammo is lighter than many carry options.

AMC

02-12-2022, 04:43 PM

I personally believe, based on witnessing malfunctions in training, that most of these are user induced by sketchy/hasty grip during emergency use of the handgun. Under stress, when trying to "go fast", most less than proficient shooters (think most LE shooters here) tend to futz up there grip. This can lead to accuracy issues of course, but can also lead to interfering with the proper function of the slide stop lever. We know failing to lock back on an empty mag can be a thing with some shooters with classic line Sigs, for example. Almost as common is causing the slide to lock back on a partially loaded magazine. We see this fairly often in faster, more 'dynamic' course of fire. JMHO.

HCM

02-12-2022, 06:52 PM

Almost as common is causing the slide to lock back on a partially loaded magazine. We see this fairly often in faster, more 'dynamic' course of fire. JMHO.

It’s funny you mention that because I have never experienced or even seen that with classic SIGs (which we issued for 15 years) but It’s my number one complaint about the P320. I’ve both experienced it and seen it and some other proficient shooters at work, mostly those running high grips who came to the 320 from POW Glocks.

AMC

02-12-2022, 06:58 PM

It’s funny you mention that because I have never experienced or even seen that with classic SIGs (which we issued for 15 years) but It’s my number one complaint about the P320. I’ve both experienced it and seen it and some other proficient shooters at work, mostly those running high grips who came to the 320 from POW Glocks.

We would see this regularly, particularly with recruits during testing. They'd dump a nearly full magazine, and then not have sufficient ammo to complete the course. Resulted in quite a few remedial tests.

We, on the other hand, have not seen it with 320s....but our sample size is much more limited (half a dozen firearms instructors and some of the SWAT instructors). Highest round counts We have on those guns are in the 5-7000 round range right now.

Joe Mac

02-12-2022, 07:02 PM

Glock 17 does not pass a limp wrist test:

It does with ammo that isn't weak. I've done that many times, and never had a malfunction.

HCM

02-12-2022, 07:11 PM

We've all seen less than stellar reports of problems with VP9, I can think of a few off the top of my head....

Firing Pin Drops on Impact to Butt of Pistol (no discharge)
Water in Firing Pin Channel Causing Failures
Very Sensitive To Environmental Contamination

Is there anybody here who can share first hand knowledge of what has been found in large scale testing? It seems there should be more of these in duty holsters if there were not problems, considering H&K designs for LE/MIL exclusively and doesn't consider civilians their main focus.

The only large scale US law-enforcement testing I am aware of involving the VP nine was the Texas department of public safety testing eight or 10 years ago which followed their Smith and Wesson M&P scandal.

After the M&P 9 mm was adopted under mysterious circumstances to replace the P226 and 357 and failed spectacularly, TX DPS conducted a large scale test of most striker fired 9mm service pistols on the market at the time. The testing methodology was on par with that used by other large state local and federal agencies. There were three guns that passed testing and met all requirements they were the VP nine, this CIG P32 zero and the Glock 17 Gen 4.

Unsurprisingly after 25 years with the SIG Classic series pistols, DPS chose to go back to what they knew (SIG).

Shortly after that the Oklahoma state highway patrol conducted a similar test to replace the classic series 6 with a polymer framed striker fired 9 mm. OK required a flush fit / no extensions magazine capacity of at least 17 rounds, which precludes the 15 round VP9.

That was followed by the FBI’s 9 mm pistol testing which required use of a button mag release and precluded paddle/lever style releases.

AFAIK the VP9 was never submitted for the FBI/DOJ, DHS ICE or DHS/CBP testing.

Usually in Agency testing manufacturers will leak the fact that they passed testing even if they don’t get the contract. Whereas They may strictly enforce NDA provisions if they enter testing and do not pass.

HCM

02-12-2022, 07:13 PM

We would see this regularly, particularly with recruits during testing. They'd dump a nearly full magazine, and then not have sufficient ammo to complete the course. Resulted in quite a few remedial tests.

We, on the other hand, have not seen it with 320s....but our sample size is much more limited (half a dozen firearms instructors and some of the SWAT instructors). Highest round counts We have on those guns are in the 5-7000 round range right now.

It has been suggested that stronger mag Springs could help with or alleviate this issue. If anyone’s aware of stronger replacement magazine springs for P3 20 magazines, particularly the 21 round variety please let me know.

GJM

02-12-2022, 07:24 PM

Erick Gelhaus

02-12-2022, 07:42 PM

Glock 17 does not pass a limp wrist test:

As far as I remember, the CZ75 with its heavy steel frame does. But most polymer-frame guns don't.

Glock 17 limp wrist failure in slow-motion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka556--WF2o)

SMDH .... Grocks & limp writing. Towards the end of our Gen 3 G22 problems, I had remediated 16 pistols with all new internals at Glock's request. Their western US L/E rep who had also been with LAPD's issue was present. We ran the pistols through a 500 rd course of fire - since it was either 2000 or 2500 as the "new" service life on the recoil spring assemblies. 400 rounds of ball then 100 rds of duty ammo. Very near the end of the duty ammo were strings fired from retention and then from a supine position where the shooter would bridge and fire rounds over each shoulder.

One of my female shooters who rode motorcycles a bunch off duty was experiencing stoppages while shooting from a retention position. A well-executed, locked wrist, Count #2 (almost with a thumb-pec index) retention position. Comically, the Glock rep blamed them on limp wristing. However, no one experienced a single stoppage when shooting from that bastardized, on your back, over your shoulder position with little mass behind the gun. None.

Jared

02-12-2022, 08:14 PM

Few different thoughts.

1) my wife and I tested the G5 23, hardly holding it, and couldn't induce a stoppage. Not sure how much is the .40 cartridge, how much the breech face cut, how much something else.

2) I generally can adapt my technique to shoot different pistols. An exception is the Beretta 92, which will lock open for me occasionally with rounds in the magazine when I am pushing hard. Does it on multiple copies, with thin and regular grips. I have seen it happen to others, that routinely shoot a 92, and with proficiency. It didn't use to do that for me in past years, so I assume it is related to my evolving grip, but exactly what I am not sure. I can deal with a pistol that doesn't lock back, but not a pistol that locks open with cartridges left.

3) I wonder if a G5 17 would have tested differently, given how vigorously it throws the brass out.

I know you’ve checked this so it’s probably not worth posting, but I had one mag start doing it after it had some wear on it. It’d lock back with one round left in the mag. Ditched that mag and the problem disappeared. Same mag would cause the problem in every gun I ran it in, which wasn’t every Beretta that I own, but nevertheless it was enough that I ditched the mag.

GJM

02-12-2022, 08:17 PM

I know you’ve checked this so it’s probably not worth posting, but I had one mag start doing it after it had some wear on it. It’d lock back with one round left in the mag. Ditched that mag and the problem disappeared. Same mag would cause the problem in every gun I ran it in, which wasn’t every Beretta that I own, but nevertheless it was enough that I ditched the mag.

Thank you for that. MecGar and OEM mags, so I am pretty sure something in my grip, when imperfect is contacting the bottom of the slide stop.

Jared

02-12-2022, 08:37 PM

Thank you for that. MecGar and OEM mags, so I am pretty sure something in my grip, when imperfect is contacting the bottom of the slide stop.

Roger that. I figured you would have tested and checked for mags by now. One that did it to me was a 15 round OEM mag. It was one of my training mags and honestly I don’t know round count but it was north of 3k for sure (on that mag).

Jared

02-12-2022, 08:47 PM

To the original topic:

I’m not part of any agency and don’t have access to the testing of any such agencies. I have owned 3 different VP9s, currently have one with the button mag release and milled from the factory for RDS. I’ve shot two others that were owned by others.

I’ve found the VP9 to be as reliable and shootable as any other striker fired 9mm out there. It isn’t really “super special” or anything like that, but from my experience it’s as good of a choice in that crowded field as any other. I’ve found I get a good consistent grip and predictable sight tracking with the medium back strap and the small side panels. I like the OEM sights that come on them now with the black rear and bright dot on the front.

If someone is already heavily invested in Glocks or the 320 or whatever else, I doubt there’s a reason to make the investment to switch to the VP9. That said, if one was just starting out and went and bought a VP9 I wouldn’t accuse them of using poor judgment. As a side note, the VP9 is one of the few pistols out there my wife genuinely enjoys shooting, which is enough for me to keep it around.

P30

02-13-2022, 04:09 AM

As a side note, the VP9 is one of the few pistols out there my wife genuinely enjoys shooting, which is enough for me to keep it around.
I suppose, she has small hands. Am I right?

My only complaint about the SFP9/VP9: The upper back area of the grip is too hollow. I assume, HK did it for shooters with small hands. I have quite big thin hands. So there is only little pressure from my hand against this area of the grip. So recoil control for me is harder.

Meanwhile I've tried a lot of different ways to grip the SFP9. Learned something along the way and my recoil control has become better. But I still wish, there was such an accessory part for the SFP9 in order to make the mentioned area thicker (beaver tail not needed, it should only be thicker directly below the beaver tail):

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41FCaWa7E9L._AC_.jpg

Jared

02-13-2022, 06:56 AM

I suppose, she has small hands. Am I right?

Yup. I’m pretty much average height with average sized hands for an American male. She’s 6 inches shorter than me with proportionally smaller hands. So the VP9 is nice for her. She also really likes my G19.5

Archer1440

02-13-2022, 11:54 PM

My hands are in the 99th percentile in size (9.85” span, 9.2” length) and it is perhaps interesting that the VP9 is the only semiauto handgun I have ever shot that has not caused me to shed blood in hard use.

P30L, 1911, USP, P7M8, P320-X5, P226, P229, and many others always have caused me either hammer bite (in the case of hammer actions) or railroad tracks from the slide action (virtually everything) under extreme time pressure in competition or training classes.

I have yet to experience anything of the sort from any VP9 platform.

One of my prized possessions is a circa 2003 Gunsite 499 certificate covered in fake blood and bandaids that the instructors gave me as a gag. I used a Springfield Professional that week, won the class shoot off, but left enough blood in the caliche to grow a fairly successful tomato patch by mid-week.

No such problems with the VP9. (Ignoring the arterial spray from a magazine loading mishap in another 499 in 2020…)

Luger

02-14-2022, 03:29 AM

Factory 115g ammo can tend to be a bit light compared to serious carry ammo, and it's where I see so may issues with polymer duty guns with factory springs.

This might be part of the problem, since our service ammo is a 94gr solid copper bullet.

stinx

02-14-2022, 07:27 AM

Sanford Maine Police Issue the VP9 and Miami Gardens Police in Fla allows it to be carried as an approved weapon. Have not heard of any others.

LOKNLOD

02-14-2022, 07:32 AM

2) I generally can adapt my technique to shoot different pistols. An exception is the Beretta 92, which will lock open for me occasionally with rounds in the magazine when I am pushing hard. Does it on multiple copies, with thin and regular grips. I have seen it happen to others, that routinely shoot a 92, and with proficiency. It didn't use to do that for me in past years, so I assume it is related to my evolving grip, but exactly what I am not sure. I can deal with a pistol that doesn't lock back, but not a pistol that locks open with cartridges left.
.

I've struggled with that issue and it even bit me in front of Tom on the Rangemaster test. My support thumb can hit the front of the slide release lever under recoil and encourage it upward. The front of the lever is just right in the right spot to do it occasionally. Especially if i'm switching back and forth between guns. Like you I find i'm pretty adaptable to different pistols (albeit with a lower performance ceiling...) but that's one I haven't fully eliminated.