RFI: Dogs

[okie john]

Ms. Okie and I are looking for a medium-sized dog.

We have a teenage girl here a couple of days a week, so it has to be good with kids.
It should be protective/intimidating so Ms. Okie can feel safe while running with it.
Prey drive should be such that it won't pull Ms. Okie's arm out of the socket if it sees a squirrel or another dog.
Need to keep bites on family members to a minimum.

We're willing to buy from a reputable breeder and pay for solid training. Ms. Okie was all about a Belgian Malinois until we got input (basically a giant NFW) from a buddy who's a former LE dog handler and worked with them for years.

What do we think?

Thanks,


Okie John

[MickAK]

When I am (hopefully in a long, long time) in the market for a new dog I'm going with Norwegian Elkhound. A lot of my criteria is the same.

[OlongJohnson]

My list is similar, and my short list of "to investigate" breeds consists of:

1. Australian cattle dog

I'm a fan of herding breeds generally, with their intelligence and modicum of independence. Only issue with the heelers that worries me is I've read there may be an instinct to...nip at heels (of all things.) Not sure how that would play out with your last point.

[Welder]

It doesn't seem to be a popular breed here, but when you say medium-sized dogs, I think Boxers. I grew up with them. Not really bright, but who cares? Your dog doesn't need to do calculus. :) They're really family-friendly and if any dog breed has a sense of humor, it's a Boxer. I was never bitten by any of ours, nor was anyone else. The short nose gives them a little bit of a mean look, and without exception any strangers who came to the door backed up when they saw the Boxer barking through the screen door. They are high energy, especially when young.

[Rick R]

When I am (hopefully in a long, long time) in the market for a new dog I'm going with Norwegian Elkhound. A lot of my criteria is the same.

I have a 11 year old male Norwegian Elkhound (had one as a kid growing up), very loving and family oriented breed, great companions, they will bark up a storm but are not normally physically aggressive toward strangers. They are independent thinkers, very intelligent and very prey oriented. Elkhounds believe that Odin put everything between mouse and moose on Earth to be chased. Elkhounds are known for the look they throw over their shoulder when they decide to disregard obedience training and disappear over the hill into brush on an adventure. They expect you to follow and participate.

My theory is the Vikings invaded most of Northern Europe looking for their damn dogs.

My next dog will probably be another Elkie because I’m accustomed to being led around on a leash.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, heelers like to bite feet. I’ve met some really great mixes though.

[blues]

My dog is a Boxer / Terrier mix. She is very high energy with a strong prey drive. She pulls my wife around because she knows she can get away with it.

She doesn't pull it with me...but she will chase if given an opportunity and you're not paying attention.

Maybe a pure breed would be different...not sure.

If you like a large-ish dog...you can do a lot worse than a Weimaraner. They were bred to assist game wardens, very loyal and loving, and less inclined to chase...though they have a drive. I trained mine not to chase deer and other critters pretty quickly.

Protective, loyal, friendly to others but not overly so. I still miss my boy...8 plus years later.

[Clusterfrack]

The best big purebreds I’ve met have been ridgebacks. Downside is they don’t live that long.

[Duelist]

I love Brittanys, especially Epagnuel Breton (French type, not AKC/US Field Trial type). They do have a lot of energy and a prey drive, but it easily channeled and they love to cuddle and be in the house. Mine have both been affectionate with the family but velcroed to me whenever I’m home. Like, follow me in the bathrooms and lay down to wait for me, follow me outside and back inside over and over when loading or unloading the car, or taking out the trash. Power tools in the yard, and they stare out the window at me.

They need an outlet and a job, but love to hunt.

Most dogs will do, if you will do the work with them. I would avoid a Mal until and unless you get a lot of experience and have a high level of commitment to the lifestyle you are signing on for.

Boxers are cool. Weimeraners are beautiful. One of the best dogs I’ve ever been around was a GSD, and another was a Rottweiler.

My next dog will likely be a no shed breed due to allergies in the house, but will probably not be a poodle because I have hang ups about them. Others love them, though, and I’m not unwilling to be persuaded.

Dog, good with family and kids, generic type: Golden retriever or Labrador.

[Suvorov]

Collie.

If you don’t want to deal with the coat, Smooth Collie.

If size is an issue then go with a female as there is a large degree of sexual dimorphism with the breed and females will run in the 50lb range.

My mom bred them and I was raised with them and showed them in both confirmation and obedience. Several of them became certified service animals.

Temperament wise, you really can’t get a better family dog. They are alert and will bark at intruders but do not have an aggressive biting disposition. As they were developed to herd sheep, they have a strong herding instinct counter to a prey instinct. They are wonderful with children and as a child they would ten keep me from wondering off too far nor allow the cattle to come too close to me. They are intelligent and eager to please and train. The are big enough and have the presence to make goblins think twice about dealing with their point ends.

[the Schwartz]

Yeah, heelers like to bite feet. I’ve met some really great mixes though.

You've described my younger sister's two heelers perfectly. It's playful, but can be painful if the dog gets a little too excited.

Second Duelist's suggestion of a Lab or Retriever. They can be large, but they're also probably the sweetest natured breed of them all and tend to be very tolerant of kids.

[GJM]

We are fond of Vizslas! Astro will be 13 in June, and is two days away from hitting 500 days in a row of 60 minutes or more a day of exercise. The picture is from Sunday.

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[UNK]

I had a Mal purchased from here. https://www.libertydogcamp.com/our-dogs.asp
I had to put her down last year due to age. She was in a house with two elementary age kids, a Grandmother with Alzheimers and an in home Nurse daily.
Tony from Liberty picked her for me I just told him my circumstances. She was a great dog we took her everywhere with us. She spent a lot of time in baseball parks around a lot of kids.
There was no pulling on the leash.
Theres some people here really experienced with dogs who will have better input as this was my first exposure to a working dog. She ran 45 lbs.
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[OlongJohnson]

It doesn't seem to be a popular breed here, but when you say medium-sized dogs, I think Boxers. I grew up with them. Not really bright, but who cares? Your dog doesn't need to do calculus. :) They're really family-friendly and if any dog breed has a sense of humor, it's a Boxer. I was never bitten by any of ours, nor was anyone else. The short nose gives them a little bit of a mean look, and without exception any strangers who came to the door backed up when they saw the Boxer barking through the screen door. They are high energy, especially when young.

Some family of mine had a purebred boxer and a boxer/pit mix. Both were pretty good dogs. The purebred did not live a long time; I was told that ten years is considered old for them. The boxer/pit was superb with kids and people, but was a rescue and had likely been trained to fight. If let off leash at the dog park, she would look for the biggest, toughest looking dog there and go try to start a fight. Athletic as could be - top made of rubber and bottom made of springs.

Had some other friends with a husky/German shepherd mix. Probably the best dog of all time. Incredibly smart, well-behaved and sweet. Looked wolfy enough that people would cross the street to avoid getting too close to her. She was about 70 lb, which may be larger than you're looking for.

[blues]

The boxer/pit was superb with kids and people, but was a rescue and had likely been trained to fight. If let off leash at the dog park, she would look for the biggest, toughest looking dog there and go try to start a fight. Athletic as could be - top made of rubber and bottom made of springs.



A lot in common with mine. We think she's Boxer / Staffie but it's anyone's guess. (We rescued her three months after my Weimaraner died in 2013.)

She's 55 lbs of gumption. She's chased bigger dogs down the road when she was loose, and dominates my neighbor's much larger male Lab / Pit mix when they wrestle in his fenced in yard. Super athletic, and strong as can be for her size.

She's a sweetheart with people and kids.

https://pistol-forum.com/image.php?u=13538&dateline=1563734923&type=profile

[Lex Luthier]

A lot in common with mine. We think she's Boxer / Staffie but it's anyone's guess. (We rescued her three months after my Weimaraner died in 2013.)

She's 55 lbs of gumption. She's chased bigger dogs down the road when she was loose, and dominates my neighbor's much larger male Lab / Pit mix when they wrestle in his fenced in yard. Super athletic, and strong as can be for her size.

She's a sweetheart with people and kids.

My brother has a rescued boxer-staffie mix as well, and aside from her sheer athletic boinginess when younger, she's been a remarkably well-adjusted and good natured dog.

[blues]

My brother has a rescued boxer-staffie mix as well, and aside from her sheer athletic boinginess when younger, she's been a remarkably well-adjusted and good natured dog.

My girl is 9 going on 1.

[HCM]

Ms. Okie and I are looking for a medium-sized dog.

We have a teenage girl here a couple of days a week, so it has to be good with kids.
It should be protective/intimidating so Ms. Okie can feel safe while running with it.
Prey drive should be such that it won't pull Ms. Okie's arm out of the socket if it sees a squirrel or another dog.
Need to keep bites on family members to a minimum.

We're willing to buy from a reputable breeder and pay for solid training. Ms. Okie was all about a Belgian Malinois until we got input (basically a giant NFW) from a buddy who's a former LE dog handler and worked with them for years.

What do we think?

Thanks,


Okie John

Mals are great dogs but they both need and in some aspects are a full time job.

The whole pulling/prey drive and bites thing are mostly matters of temperament and training. In my experience many herding breeds Walmart actual biters do tend to engage in light nipping behavior. Again this can be a matter of training and usually indicates the dog is trying to herd humans because they are bored.

I’m a big fan of mixed breed shelter dogs and selecting mostly on temperament.

Temperament, training, and socialization are the most significant things in my experience.

Of course everyone thinks they have the best dog, and all of them are right.

[Willard]

This is going to sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I would recommend a standard poodle. They are large, extraordinarily smart, trainable, protective, non-shedding coat (requires grooming but good for allergies), athletic, can run with your spouse, not prone to irresponsible biting, won't pull her arm from socket, and seem to meet all your requirements. If you don't give them a silly show cut and put them in a pet cut, they can be intimidating to strangers and are very watchful. They seem to instinctively pick up on your preferences and desired behaviors and are very malleable. There are a number of other options: German Shepherds, Airedales, Giant Schnauzers, Bouviers, Boxers, Dobermans, etc. But barring any predilections toward another breed, this is what I would go with. You also have color variance if that is a factor. I prefer the black and apricot coats, but coat color would be my last consideration. Next on my list would be a non-frog back, straight top line German Shepherd. YMMV. Hope this is helpful.

[Erik]

My last dog was a shepherd/husky mix from the local shelter. Best dog ever. We got him as a puppy and he lived to be 15 or 16 and was healthy the whole time. He was by far the smartest dog I've ever had, and very sweet tempered. Good barker/watcher and never bit or nipped anybody. He was incredibly high energy. He would literally bounce up and down when he got excited. Think 70 pounds of happy dog bouncing 5 feet up and down, all four feet off the ground, over and over and over by the back door because he saw the leash come out. He was also a runner and a puller. I always figured part sled dog equals running and pulling. He could literally pull my ex down the street. We solved that problem with a halti collar (cloth harness that slips over the snout and turns his head if he pulls against it). In his early years, he was an escape artist, very much like the Norwegian Elkhound description above (looking over the shoulder and everything) and he remained a real runner basically right up to the day he died. If you had the space and time to get a dog like that the exercise they need and some patience to deal with a smart, sometimes willful dog, I'd recommend one in a heartbeat.

[OlongJohnson]

Next on my list would be a non-frog back, straight top line German Shepherd.

Wait, you can still get such a thing? I haven't seen one in at least a decade. It's a damn shame what has happened to that breed during my lifetime.

[Duelist]

Wait, you can still get such a thing? I haven't seen one in at least a decade. It's a damn shame what has happened to that breed during my lifetime.

Euro bloodlines, even a Euro import, and you will avoid the AKC show silliness.

[Lex Luthier]

This is going to sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I would recommend a standard poodle. They are large, extraordinarily smart, protective, non-shedding coat (requires grooming but good for allergies), athletic, can run with your spouse, not prone to irresponsible biting, won't pull her arm from socket, and seem to meet all your requirements. If you don't give them a silly show cut and put them in a pet cut, they can be intimidating to strangers and are very watchful. They seem to instinctively pick up on your preferences and desired behaviors and are very malleable. There are a number of other options: German Shepherds, Airedales, Giant Schnauzers, Bouviers, Boxers, Dobermans, etc. But barring any predilections toward another breed, this is what I would go with. This will be my next dog after current resident passes (hopefully never, but it will come eventually).

In the past 10 years or so, I have met several adult male poodles. They've all struck me as deeply intelligent and alert hunting dogs, and all were good with small kids and puppies (including our guy, who was a noodge) and quite trainable. I'd also bring up Border Collies, though you do have to give them jobs to keep them from getting frustrated.

Having had standard wire-haired dachshunds around for most of the past 18 years, I wouldn't recommend them as they a) have an astonishing prey drive, b) are independent-minded to the point of being nearly mutinous, and c) are usually crappy running partners. Fantastic people dogs, though, and ferociously devoted to and protective of kids.

[UNK]

A whole lot of tidbits of good info here. One thing people might not consider realistically is the amount of time a breed needs exercising and interacting.
Ive also been considering another dog and a poodle mix is really interesting. Ive seen two recently that werent hyper excited like I've seen in a poodle golden retriever mix. The first was a poodle herding dog mix. It was absolutely perfect in size for me Id guess about 16-18” at the shoulder. Very calm in nature. The other was a poodle german shepard mix more of a full size dog but also calm.
Since you have a friend in K9 if you do go the rescue route perhaps he could go with you to analyze the dogs of interest.

[Doc_Glock]

It doesn't seem to be a popular breed here, but when you say medium-sized dogs, I think Boxers. I grew up with them. Not really bright, but who cares? Your dog doesn't need to do calculus. :) They're really family-friendly and if any dog breed has a sense of humor, it's a Boxer. I was never bitten by any of ours, nor was anyone else. The short nose gives them a little bit of a mean look, and without exception any strangers who came to the door backed up when they saw the Boxer barking through the screen door. They are high energy, especially when young.

Friends of mine who lived in the Mountains of Mexico as Missionaries always kept Boxers because they looked super scary to the locals, but were no drama about biting anyone or someone else's dog and were fabulous family dogs.

[HCountyGuy]

I tend to be partial to German Shepherds myself, having always had them since I was born. Currently have one all black GSD (far less shedding) and a black lab. The GSD can be a little rambunctious but she is extremely protective when it comes to my son. Not aggressively, unless someone were to attempt to come at him in such a fashion. She was supposed to be my dog but she is very much bonded with him.

The lab has the sweetest temperament but can get protective when he deems it necessary. Overall just a big cuddle bug.

[JAD]

Mixed breeds are best breeds. Go to the shelter, interview your dog, and save his or her life. You'll wind up with better temperament and health than you can get predictably from any breed; you'll stop feeding the breeding machine, which really sucks for dogs and people; and you'll keep a dog from getting killed. Save time and money and adopt two at once -- one is none and two is where the fun starts.

[psalms144.1]

All Rhodesian Ridgeback, all the time. If you're active, you literally won't be able to outwork/outplay them. Mine is the biggest mush of all time, loves nothing better than to sleep on the loveseat next to me, but, if ANYONE approaches my house, his protection mode kicks in, and the barking has literally sent UPS dudes running with the doors closed.

He loves "his" people, and all dogs, and is very controllable on a lead with a prong collar. My guy is 125+ pounds, so, off the prong when he wants to go, he pretty much will go, so the right collar is required when he's out and about.

[mmc45414]

This is going to sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I would recommend a standard poodle. They are large, extraordinarily smart, trainable, protective, non-shedding coat (requires grooming but good for allergies), athletic, can run with your spouse, not prone to irresponsible biting, won't pull her arm from socket, and seem to meet all your requirements. If you don't give them a silly show cut and put them in a pet cut, they can be intimidating to strangers and are very watchful. They seem to instinctively pick up on your preferences and desired behaviors and are very malleable.

We are on our third one and Cami is our first female and she is great. MrsMMc says she is kinda keen on me, so I might be partial.

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She is three and we adopted her a little over a year ago. She has been a little rowdy but is starting to calm down a bit. I think it helps that we have been spending 20-30min every morning outside, I have been bundling up enough to enjoy my morning cup of coffee outside with her, while she checks the wood piles and under the shed for intruders. We live on a dead-end street, so I can get away with a lot of time off leash, and all three of ours have done well. Cami took a little work, but after a little use of a shock collar she recalls to the whistle well enough I passed the collar on to someone who needed it more (actually to a dog that might be a perfect adoption opportunity, but he is in Ohio...).

She is sixty pounds, maybe a little larger for a female, males are typically going to be larger than that. If you avoid the goofy grooming many people do not even know exactly what they are.

[peterb]

A relative has a Lab/GSD mix that’s a great dog. Looks like a black GSD and more laid-back than most of the GSDs I’ve met.

We’ve had a Lab, a couple of GSDs, a couple of mixes. All fine dogs. Currently have rescued greyhounds who are affectionate couch potatoes most of the time. Everyone assumes they’re high-strung but their working life was being kenneled 23 hours a day, and they were bred to accommodate that. It’s rare to find one that’s human-aggressive unless it’s been abused. They’re not going to intimidate anyone.

[rob_s]

Ms. Okie and I are looking for a medium-sized dog.

We have a teenage girl here a couple of days a week, so it has to be good with kids.
It should be protective/intimidating so Ms. Okie can feel safe while running with it.
Prey drive should be such that it won't pull Ms. Okie's arm out of the socket if it sees a squirrel or another dog.
Need to keep bites on family members to a minimum.

We're willing to buy from a reputable breeder and pay for solid training. Ms. Okie was all about a Belgian Malinois until we got input (basically a giant NFW) from a buddy who's a former LE dog handler and worked with them for years.

What do we think?

Thanks,


Okie John

What do you consider to be “medium”? Height and weight?

How much land/yard do you have available for the dog to play/roam in?

How much time, per day, do you have to devote to the dog?

How much time will it spend alone?

What is your tolerance for fur on furniture and floors and clothes?

[NH Shooter]

Mixed breeds are best breeds. Go to the shelter, interview your dog, and save his or her life. You'll wind up with better temperament and health than you can get predictably from any breed; you'll stop feeding the breeding machine, which really sucks for dogs and people; and you'll keep a dog from getting killed. Save time and money and adopt two at once -- one is none and two is where the fun starts.

This X 1,000

[Duces Tecum]

Next on my list would be a non-frog back, straight top line German Shepherd.

I had to look that one up. Frog back explained:
https://dogdiscoveries.com/curiosity/german-shepherds-have-sloping-back

[the Schwartz]

Wait, you can still get such a thing? I haven't seen one in at least a decade. It's a damn shame what has happened to that breed during my lifetime.

Completely agree.

Had an AKC German Shepherd (Schwartz's Fraulein Gretel) when I was a kid before the breed was ''altered'' by the recent silliness.

SE Iowa, ca. 1974
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[peterb]

Wait, you can still get such a thing? I haven't seen one in at least a decade. It's a damn shame what has happened to that breed during my lifetime.

Our girl, found at a GSD rescue group, early 2000s. Gone but not forgotten.

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[RancidSumo]

Every time I start looking at different dog breeds I end up wanting one of each, but when its time to really make a decision I find it awfully hard to beat a lab. Only box it might not check is being intimidating (depending on the dog/training). Mine is 13 and too lazy to do much these days, but even when he was young he'd look to me for protection rather than the other way around.

Since we are posting pics, here is my old man the day after I got him letting my niece crawl all over him and pull on his ears.
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[Coyotesfan97]

Euro bloodlines, even a Euro import, and you will avoid the AKC show silliness.

THIS. The AKC has destroyed the American GSD as a working dog. It’s hard work trying to find a good Euro line GSD for a police dog. If you Google GSD WWI you’ll see GSDs whose back and hindquarters look like Malionois.

If I was looking for a GSD I’d go to Cher Car Kennels and tell them you’re looking for a euro style/no sloping back. I’ve seen the Dutch Shepherds they breed. I’d trust them with GSDs. They’re running 2K for a pup but they’ve been in business for 45 years.

http://www.chercarkennels.com/

[randyho]

Very partial to Boxers who don't seem to've been ruined by the akc.

Australian Cattle Dogs: Buy your friend a case of beer. These dogs need a hobby and if you don't provide one, digging through your drywall, insulation, and siding to get to the back yard, may become one.

Standard and Giant Schnauzers are fantastic dogs. They are physically dense like a boxer and don't have the hyper personalities of the miniatures that I grew up with. The Giants are... just impressive.

Go to a rescue or local facility and save a life.

[Sensei]

GSD or Mal.

[Shades]

This is going to sound like the ravings of a lunatic, but I would recommend a standard poodle. They are large, extraordinarily smart, trainable, protective, non-shedding coat (requires grooming but good for allergies), athletic, can run with your spouse, not prone to irresponsible biting, won't pull her arm from socket, and seem to meet all your requirements. If you don't give them a silly show cut and put them in a pet cut, they can be intimidating to strangers and are very watchful. They seem to instinctively pick up on your preferences and desired behaviors and are very malleable. There are a number of other options: German Shepherds, Airedales, Giant Schnauzers, Bouviers, Boxers, Dobermans, etc. But barring any predilections toward another breed, this is what I would go with. You also have color variance if that is a factor. I prefer the black and apricot coats, but coat color would be my last consideration. Next on my list would be a non-frog back, straight top line German Shepherd. YMMV. Hope this is helpful.

Another lunatic here. I'd have a standard poodle now, but Mrs. Shades thinks they look wussy. She's wrong, I watched the one we had as a kid motivate a creepy guy to clear our 6 foot fence in one frantic leap. Willard's other points are spot on. These the K9 billet is filled by a Black and Tan coonhound mix rescue. Sweet as can be, but if the burglars bring food, she'll help 'em find the loot. I get another standard poodle in a heartbeat.

[LittleLebowski]

Boxers have a habit of literally dropping dead. No shit.

[Coyotesfan97]

Another lunatic here. I'd have a standard poodle now, but Mrs. Shades thinks they look wussy. She's wrong, I watched the one we had as a kid motivate a creepy guy to clear our 6 foot fence in one frantic leap. Willard's other points are spot on. These the K9 billet is filled by a Black and Tan coonhound mix rescue. Sweet as can be, but if the burglars bring food, she'll help 'em find the loot. I get another standard poodle in a heartbeat.

IIRC Standard Poodles are sometimes trained for bitework in Holland.

[UNM1136]

Oops, double tap.

pat

[UNM1136]

okie john.

Most canine guys have experience with puppy mill-ish type Mals. I have seen several make great pets, when obtained early and trianed. My Mal is six, I have been working with him since he was 3 weeks old (yes, before his eyes opened), and had him in the house since he was 9 weeks. The "European imports" can frequently come from litters of "champion" parents where the strongest/hardest dogs are kept, and the weakest culled. If you imagined a gunny sack at the river when I said culled, you are not far off.

My Mal is more level headed, relaxed, and capable than all but one dog I have worked with as a decoy, trainer, or handler. He is a joy to be around, and when I got him my oldest was 16, my youngest was 8.

He has blown the minds of cops from small agencies who have only seen maligators. Several can't believe he is a Mal, since he is so laid back. Was more mature and easy going at 2 years old than my best friends working GSD was at six.

Mals have suffered from the same inbreeding issues as GSDs, but with a smaller pool and different issues, it isn't caught as often. In Mals inbreeding stuff is neurologic rather than structural. Many of the flighty-bitey Mals in police service are actually nervy, rather than highly prey driven as assessed. In police work, a certain level of nervy-ness masquerading as high prey drive can flat out work.

Most police dog handlers are not trainers initially. They are handed a dog, pass the class, pass the field shake outs, and drive on. Good trainers can assess and train the dogs, even with marginal issues. So police handlers may not be the best consultants. Breeders, importers, and trainers may be better resources than a handler friend. But they may also have ulterior motives in moving bad dogs.

In my experience, a Mal got early, and trained early and well, is a brilliant companion. The pressure of bite work will develop some of the less desirable traits if they are there. So, don't do bite work if you don't need to. Mals excell at agility, detection, flyball, obedience, tracking, and many other doggie hobbies. They need hobbies and exercise. I enjoy taking mine to public parks every few weeks to do tracking training. He loves it.

They are smart and need a firm hand in training and handling, because they will train you if given the chance. But I wouldn't trade mine for the world.

pat

[UNM1136]

IIRC Standard Poodles are sometimes trained for bitework in Holland.

Yeah I remember hearing that, too. They, strangely enough, started out as hunting dogs. So the working traits can be there.

pat

[Coyotesfan97]

My analogy for police K9s and training is cars. A handler is the end user who drives the car, a
Police trainer is generally a mechanic who fixes (Or tries to fix) cars, and the breeders/trainers are the manufacturers.

A handler isn’t a trainer but if you do it long enough you pick up a lot.

[1911Nut]

I won't be able to help. I am a beagle fan. Dewey is the 3rd I have owned since 1982.

The only way he could intimidate someone would be if I threatened to give him to them.

But we get along pretty well.

8410884109[

[Duelist]

I won't be able to help. I am a beagle fan. Dewey is the 3rd I have owned since 1982.

The only way he could intimidate someone would be if I threatened to give him to them.

But we get along pretty well.

8410884109[

Handsome fellow!

[UNK]

This is an excellent post. The nervy issues, do they show later in the dogs life as nervy rather than drive?


okie john.

Most canine guys have experience with puppy mill-ish type Mals. I have seen several make great pets, when obtained early and trianed. My Mal is six, I have been working with him since he was 3 weeks old (yes, before his eyes opened), and had him in the house since he was 9 weeks. The "European imports" can frequently come from litters of "champion" parents where the strongest/hardest dogs are kept, and the weakest culled. If you imagined a gunny sack at the river when I said culled, you are not far off.

My Mal is more level headed, relaxed, and capable than all but one dog I have worked with as a decoy, trainer, or handler. He is a joy to be around, and when I got him my oldest was 16, my youngest was 8.

He has blown the minds of cops from small agencies who have only seen maligators. Several can't believe he is a Mal, since he is so laid back. Was more mature and easy going at 2 years old than my best friends working GSD was at six.

Mals have suffered from the same inbreeding issues as GSDs, but with a smaller pool and different issues, it isn't caught as often. In Mals inbreeding stuff is neurologic rather than structural. Many of the flighty-bitey Mals in police service are actually nervy, rather than highly prey driven as assessed. In police work, a certain level of nervy-ness masquerading as high prey drive can flat out work.

Most police dog handlers are not trainers initially. They are handed a dog, pass the class, pass the field shake outs, and drive on. Good trainers can assess and train the dogs, even with marginal issues. So police handlers may not be the best consultants. Breeders, importers, and trainers may be better resources than a handler friend. But they may also have ulterior motives in moving bad dogs.

In my experience, a Mal got early, and trained early and well, is a brilliant companion. The pressure of bite work will develop some of the less desirable traits if they are there. So, don't do bite work if you don't need to. Mals excell at agility, detection, flyball, obedience, tracking, and many other doggie hobbies. They need hobbies and exercise. I enjoy taking mine to public parks every few weeks to do tracking training. He loves it.

They are smart and need a firm hand in training and handling, because they will train you if given the chance. But I wouldn't trade mine for the world.

pat

[Shotgun]

Prey drive should be such that it won't pull Ms. Okie's arm out of the socket if it sees a squirrel or another dog.

This is an obedience training issue. Most all dogs want to chase squirrel and sniff butts. My hunting dogs obeyed, but that discipline comes with consistent yard work. Consistent obedience to "heel," "sit" and "here" are what you need. Those have saved my dogs from running across a road with a vehicle approaching many, many times. A dog that pulls on a leash is never a pleasure and that just means that proper obedience training has not been learned or perhaps enforced.


Next on my list would be a non-frog back, straight top line German Shepherd.

Reading through, I was wondering when someone was going to recommend a German Shepherd, which appears to be well suited to what you need. I have a friend who owns a couple on some country property. He has a wife and several daughters. Reportedly, these are lapdogs with the women and absolutely Cujo with strangers who approach the house.

[Clusterfrack]

...a German Shepherd, which appears to be well suited to what you need. I have a friend who owns a couple on some country property. He has a wife and several daughters. Reportedly, these are lapdogs with the women and absolutely Cujo with strangers who approach the house.

Totally agree with what you wrote about the importance of training, and x2 for GSD type dogs. Our neighbors have a GSD, and it's Cujo pretty much all the time. The wife cannot control it, and the husband is only partially in control. Not OK. I've OC sprayed it once already, when it was off leash and went for me and my dogs (on leash).

[Shotgun]

Totally agree with what you wrote about the importance of training, and x2 for GSD type dogs. Our neighbors have a GSD, and it's Cujo pretty much all the time. The wife cannot control it, and the husband is only partially in control. Not OK. I've OC sprayed it once already, when it was off leash and went for me and my dogs (on leash).

Unacceptable, and that is the owner's fault.

Here are some well-behaved German Shepherds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZd2nT2Afds

Someone needs to refresh my memory on posting YouTube videos.

[Coyotesfan97]

Unacceptable, and that is the owner's fault.

Here are some well-behaved German Shepherds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZd2nT2Afds

Someone needs to refresh my memory on posting YouTube videos.

In the commands at the top of the post you’re writing in the middle row on the right side there’s a film button. Push that and it’ll bring it up.

[Shotgun]

In the commands at the top of the post you’re writing in the middle row on the right side there’s a film button. Push that and it’ll bring it up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZd2nT2Afds

Well, I posted the video correctly but ABC has blocked the content.

[Coyotesfan97]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZd2nT2Afds

Well, I posted the video correctly but ABC has blocked the content.

You just have to click the link to YouTube to watch it.

[UNM1136]

This is an excellent post. The nervy issues, do they show later in the dogs life as nervy rather than drive?

I did the green work for a GSD that washed out. Her nerves freaked her out on shiny floors.

In mals they are expected to be frenetic, and bouncing around, and bitey. Hard headed. So when doing selection testing the bad nerves can easily be confused with really, really high prey drive. Based on what I have seen it takes a knowledeable trainer spending time with the dog to tell the difference. As the dog gets skills and training the nerves can start to show as excessive nipping. When they are taught that being on the bite is safe, they can get chewy, have slow outs, and slow recalls or send aways. Challenging the handler over toys.

Some of those dogs a super hard. Some of them are just dicks. The mal with nerve issues is essentially looking for a place to be comfortable or safe. Near the handler, or away from the handler, it depends on where the dog thinks it is best off. On the bite they don't want to give it up, because biting for a trained dog is a huge stress relief. Difficult training for the dog is always concluded with a bite to reduce stress. I firmly believe that this how mals got the rep as hard headed, and bitey. If the dog can otherwise perform, these nerve issues can be and are usually really minor things. I know of a couple of GSD that I decoyed for that were both dicks, but they also tended to get locked in drive and at times were unable to out or perform obedience when it happened. They were tough street dogs with long careers, but in one case it took almost a month with a good trainer reshape the drives to where he became more reliable. He certified annually, but he ran the ragged edge of reliability. I have vivid memories of him on the bite on my arm, getting long line corrections from three different handlers in three different directions. He lost consciousness on the bite, and the handlers immediately released the tension on the lines, and as he fell he got enough blood in his brain to bite my leg as he fell. When nervyness is mistaken for prey drive it is not necessarily a show (or career) stopper. The behaviors are there, but the dog's motivation is different.

One of the reasons dog sports titles are so popular as as screening for police dogs, whether IPO, KNPV, or ringsport is the dogs have to learn to contol and channel their drives. They are not foolproof, and sports titles do not guarantee good working dogs. But I do see benefit. Start obedience early, tracking early, like 6-8 weeks old. Start bite work at about 6 months when the teething is done, and by 12-18 months if the dog has it in them to do police work, they can be transitioned.

I have shown this before. Rush is a 5 year old in this video, doing a Mondio Ring trial. He is a solid performing mal. Notice how happy he looks to be working. He is not stressed at all.


https://youtu.be/nbgbx-vfNDg

Check out Michael Ellis on youtube. When he is working Pi it is something else. Tons of prey drive, no nerves.

ETA: I never answered you question. It is a lifelong thing, and it can certainly get worse with age.

pat

[UNM1136]

This is an obedience training issue. Most all dogs want to chase squirrel and sniff butts. My hunting dogs obeyed, but that discipline comes with consistent yard work. Consistent obedience to "heel," "sit" and "here" are what you need. Those have saved my dogs from running across a road with a vehicle approaching many, many times. A dog that pulls on a leash is never a pleasure and that just means that proper obedience training has not been learned or perhaps enforced.
Agree completely.

pat

[Robert Mitchum]

JMO its more how you train a dog than the breed.
My Wife can walk our 168 pound Presa Canario with no problems because he is trained.

The natural guarding breed BS is so misleading ..you have to train a dog to bite and to not bite.
My home protection dogs are always big enough to do combat with Humans.

A apex Male breaking into a house going up against a medium size dog JMO is not much intimidation.


I would look for a mix breed with good solid nerves that is 80 to 120 pounds that will not just bark at a bad guy.
If you train it right anyone in your Family will have total control over him or her.

This dog was serious as a heart attack but great with kids and other family members.
He was not the biggest dog around but he could handle business.

https://youtu.be/Pc34LYSavTM

[Robert Mitchum]

If you want to rescue a dog, she is top shelve person!!!!

https://rockyridgerefuge.com/about/

[JohnO]

For anyone getting a dog especially a puppy I can't say enough good things about crate training. Both on my GSDs were crate trained. I surmise the way I did it also helped bond the dogs to me. From day one I put the crate next to my bed and elevated it so the pup could see me easily while in bed.

Between the two dogs there was one accident in the crate. That was the first night in my house for my then 8 week old female. The number of accidents in the house between both dogs I can total on my fingers and have a few left over. There never was newspaper or Pee pads put down for them. That's a dumb idea that only trains them to eliminate inside. The confines of the crate and bringing them straight outside to do their 'business' quickly teaches them where to do it.

Not many people come up my driveway uninvited.

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40501&d=1564063944

Size comparison. My male is 111 Lbs.

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=40498&d=1564062677

[blues]

^^^^^

IMHO, crate training is essential. Our dogs are always taught that their crate is a good and safe place for them to be...and they get their food and snacks in them to reinforce that. That is where they stay when we're out going to town or shopping.

That said, our dogs always have their bed at the foot of ours.

[UNM1136]

It also establishes you as the beneificent provider. You give them a safe place, and reward them for being in it.

The only downside to crate training is doing it wrong.

pat

[Lon]

You need a Xoloitzcuintli. Hairless so no shedding and intimidating. They look like they’re getting ready to suck out your soul and send it to the Underworld.

84319

[Shotgun]

That's not a dog. That's the Egyptian god of bad ass.

[Duelist]

That's not a dog. That's the Egyptian god of bad ass.

Mexican, but yeah.

[RJ]

Mexican, but yeah.

Geez. That does look intimidating. Now I know where they got the inspiration in Ghostbusters.

84342

[RJ]

Although we are currently dog-less, I just wanted to say I've been enjoying the thread and discussions, and have learned a few things. Thanks!

[UNK]

Although we are currently dog-less, I just wanted to say I've been enjoying the thread and discussions, and have learned a few things. Thanks!

Just goes to show…once again… that PF members are the masters of new ways to encourage people to spend money on things they didn’t realize they needed.

ETA I hope you keep us updated on the process to a final decision okie john

[mmc45414]

^^^^^

IMHO, crate training is essential. Our dogs are always taught that their crate is a good and safe place for them to be...and they get their food and snacks in them to reinforce that. That is where they stay when we're out going to town or shopping.

That said, our dogs always have their bed at the foot of ours.Cami goes in her crate for a while (in our bedroom) every night at some point. I finally took the door offa the thing, it stuck out into the room. It is still functional if I need to put it back on.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[okie john]

I hope you keep us updated on the process to a final decision okie john

Despite bountiful expert advice to the contrary, meet Jack.

87565

Let the games begin.


Okie John

[UNK]

What breed is Jack? Fantastic looker. Congrats.


Despite bountiful expert advice to the contrary, meet Jack.

87565

Let the games begin.


Okie John

[Oldherkpilot]

I have an Australian Shepherd and a Sheltie. I highly recommend the Australian Shepherd breed, not so much the Sheltie. Combined, they morph into Tasmanian Devils and will demolish anything in their path. As Egon said, don't cross the streams.😁

[Borderland]

I'll wager a guess. Black German Shepard. Neighbor has a BGS/Golden Retriever mix puppy. Nice dog.

I was going to put my 0.02 in this thread, maybe I did and don't remember, but I like German Shepard's a lot.

All of my experience has been with hunting dogs so I only know those breeds.

True story. My neighbors daughter was attacked by her own Pit Bull and she lost her leg below the knee. I didn't know her but I have a reliable source, her mom and brother.

Congratulations OJ.

[blues]

I'll wager a guess. Black German Shepard. Neighbor has a BGS/Golden Retriever mix puppy. Nice dog.



I had a Shepherd / Golden Retriever mix I had rescued years ago while I still lived in NYC. Was a great dog...shed like a bastard, though, and had a touch of hip dysplasia I discovered while taking him running with me one day. (Chick magnet, too.)

Everyone loved that dog.

[JTQ]

I think a lot depends on your commitment to training and socialization. I've always been a fan of the herding and working breeds as they are naturally protective. However, as I've gotten older, I realize I and my family have become somewhat insular, and that causes a naturally protective dog to generally become a little more protective than I need.

I think the larger sporting (outside of Labrador's and Golden's that are overly friendly with everybody) or hound breeds may be a better choice for the non-committed owner. They are big enough and have an intimidating enough bark, but are generally not the kind of dogs that are going to be over-protective and have biting issues with folks you don't want bitten.

I believe the amateur bad guy doesn't want to mess with any dog, and especially a larger dog with deep, powerful bark, whether the dog is particularly protective or not. The professional bad guy is probably prepared to neutralize even a trained protection dog.

Dogs like the Weimaraner, German Shorthaired Pointer, Pointer, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Foxhounds, Plott Hounds, etc., are probably big enough, athletic enough, and "safe" enough to fill your needs.

AKC Sporting Group https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/sporting/

AKC Hound Group https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/hound/page/2/

[idahojess]

I think a lot depends on your commitment to training and socialization. I've always been a fan of the herding and working breeds as they are naturally protective. However, as I've gotten older, I realize I and my family have become somewhat insular, and that causes a naturally protective dog to generally become a little more protective than I need.

I think the larger sporting (outside of Labrador's and Golden's that are overly friendly with everybody) or hound breeds may be a better choice for the non-committed owner. They are big enough and have an intimidating enough bark, but are generally not the kind of dogs that are going to be over-protective and have biting issues with folks you don't want bitten.

I believe the amateur bad guy doesn't want to mess with any dog, and especially a larger dog with deep, powerful bark, whether the dog is particularly protective or not. The professional bad guy is probably prepared to neutralize even a trained protection dog.

Dogs like the Weimaraner, German Shorthaired Pointer, Pointer, Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Foxhounds, Plott Hounds, etc., are probably big enough, athletic enough, and "safe" enough to fill your needs.

AKC Sporting Group https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/sporting/

AKC Hound Group https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/hound/page/2/


I generally agree. My German Shorthair has a very nice bark, and is very watchy. He knows when to turn it off, and I don't worry about aggression. But a ton of energy . . .

My old Chesapeake, who passed on in 2010, was more prone to a bite, so I would recommend a really good fence, and some caution with those guys. The centuries of guarding wagons full of market hunter's birds left quite a territorial and possessive streak. They are really strong, too, and need work/swimming and structure or else... I probably would not recommend to a first time owner --just because they can be alphas.

But they are pretty cool dogs, and no one wants to mess with them:

87602

[jtcarm]

I love Brittanys, especially Epagnuel Breton (French type, not AKC/US Field Trial type). They do have a lot of energy and a prey drive, but it easily channeled and they love to cuddle and be in the house. Mine have both been affectionate with the family but velcroed to me whenever I’m home. Like, follow me in the bathrooms and lay down to wait for me, follow me outside and back inside over and over when loading or unloading the car, or taking out the trash. Power tools in the yard, and they stare out the window at me.

They need an outlet and a job, but love to hunt.

Most dogs will do, if you will do the work with them. I would avoid a Mal until and unless you get a lot of experience and have a high level of commitment to the lifestyle you are signing on for.

Boxers are cool. Weimeraners are beautiful. One of the best dogs I’ve ever been around was a GSD, and another was a Rottweiler.

My next dog will likely be a no shed breed due to allergies in the house, but will probably not be a poodle because I have hang ups about them. Others love them, though, and I’m not unwilling to be persuaded.

Dog, good with family and kids, generic type: Golden retriever or Labrador.

+1 on the Brits.

They are fairly energetic and need exercise, not just walking, but out running around, daily.

They’re protective of home & family, but don’t foolishly bark at everything.

They’re highly intelligent and soft, meaning harsh training methods don’t work well. They really want to please their master.

With a little leash training, they make great running companions.

P.S. be extremely careful about running a dog in hot weather. They’re not nearly as heat-tolerant as we are.

[okie john]

What breed is Jack? Fantastic looker. Congrats.

Thanks. He's a Belgian Malinois. We're working on the training side of things now.


Okie John

[Borderland]

I had a Shepherd / Golden Retriever mix I had rescued years ago while I still lived in NYC. Was a great dog...shed like a bastard, though, and had a touch of hip dysplasia I discovered while taking him running with me one day. (Chick magnet, too.)

Everyone loved that dog.

Around 1972 we rescued a German Shepard/Weimaraner pup. That was a great dog for a family. Relatives have a Boxer mix that's a great family dog. They have a 1 YO and a 3 YO. Sometimes I think the mixed breeds are actually better for most people. I'm a believer in buying a pure bred dog if you have a special job for them like hunting or herding. I paid a cool 1K for my last bird dog about 15 years ago. She was worth every dime. No longer with us unfortunately.

[blues]

Around 1972 we rescued a German Shepard/Weimaraner pup. That was a great dog for a family. Relatives have a Boxer mix that's a great family dog. They have a 1 YO and a 3 YO. Sometimes I think the mixed breeds are actually better for most people. I'm a believer in buying a pure bred dog if you have a special job for them like hunting or herding. I paid a cool 1K for my last bird dog about 15 years ago. She was worth every dime. No longer with us unfortunately.

Well, in my somewhat limited experience, much as I loved my purebred Weimaraner, (who was also a rescue), mixed breeds are much more hearty overall and impervious to various and sundry maladies.

That said...I just pretty much love 'em all.

[UNM1136]

Thanks. He's a Belgian Malinois. We're working on the training side of things now.


Okie John

Depending on HOW you want to train, I, and my State's Police Canine SME, HIGHLYrecommend the Michael Ellis videos from www.leerburg.com.

They are not cheap, but they are a how to train reference library.

https://leerburg.com/flix/category.php?categoryid=22

Providing Jack has no real behavioral issues these videos are worth their weight in gold.

I have used, and recommend the following, in order:

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/950/The_Power_of_Training_Dogs_with_Food

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/942/The_Power_of_Playing_Tug_with_your_Dog_(Full_Versi on)

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1127/Leash_Skills_with_Michael_Ellis

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/916/Training_the_Recall_with_Michael_Ellis

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1406/Raising_Your_Puppy_with_Michael_Ellis

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/916/Training_the_Recall_with_Michael_Ellis

https://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/1719/The_Electric_Collar_with_Michael_Ellis

If you buy the DVDs you used to get access to the online copies. I dunno if that is still the case. Ed can be a bit....difficult regarding his intellectual property. But in spite of that I have many of his videos going back over 20 years. And use them.

I have sworn to never train another dog without a prong collar (Herm Springer is the standard) and an e-collar. I may even have an extra puppy prong collar around here that I can send you.

Great looking little guy, BTW.

pat

[UNK]

Thanks. He's a Belgian Malinois. We're working on the training side of things now.


Okie John

What led you to that specific breeder and how did you narrow it down to Jack as your pick? I really know nothing about this process. My only Mal was picked for me by the breeder/trainer based on my situation. At some point I definitely need another dog in my life.

[okie john]

What led you to that specific breeder and how did you narrow it down to Jack as your pick? I really know nothing about this process. My only Mal was picked for me by the breeder/trainer based on my situation. At some point I definitely need another dog in my life.

Ms. Okie did all of the legwork. She was looking for someone close to western Washington with purebred dogs.


Okie John

[TheNewbie]

My red heeler, collie, mut mix, street dog that randomly showed up as a puppy two years ago has turned into a great dog.


Would I get another heeler/collie? Probably not because they are high energy and too smart. However, she’s a blessing and great dog.