Thoughts on 11.5" barrel options, or, should I re-build this?

[ASH556]

I'd appreciate some feedback on a potential re-construct of my rifle as pictured below. I've used a 10.3" based around a Colt barrel as my primary AR for several years now. Generally speaking I like it a lot and do not have reliability issues, even when running suppressed. What I'm wondering about is moving to an 11.5" barrel. An inch isn't that much (that's what she said), but the numbers say it's quite a bit when it comes to velocity. I use 62gr Speer Gold Dot, which is less reliant on velocity for terminal performance, but it's still only about a 150yd gun. My idea of a mini-recce is really a do-all gun. There's not enough distance in my local terrain to warrant a true long range gun, but the 200yd out to maybe a 400yd max envelope is realistic.

If I could just go buy an 11.5" Colt HRT barrel for anything like $300, I'd probably just do it and be done. Unfortunately the ones I can find are $500-$700. I do have a new-in-box factory Colt 10.3 as a backup/replacement to my current barrel along with a bolt. If I were to go 11.5, ultimately I would want two.

Finally, from an optics perspective, I have always had an Aimpoint on my 10.3 and when I had a magnified gun (LPVO or ACOG) it was on an upper built around a 14.5" SOCOM barrel. One thing I really liked about those barrels was their accuracy. Here's a 10-shot 100yd group out of one of those 14.5 SOCOM barrels using a 3.5X TA11 ACOG:

https://i.imgur.com/oc7RMcR.png

By contrast, this 10.3 Colt (gov profile) with same ammo is almost 2MOA:

https://i.imgur.com/BAruc7A.jpg

So my hope is that with an 11.5" HRT barrel, which is heavy profile, I could get more velocity = better terminal performance, plus the added accuracy benefit.
Short of forking out $500-$700 for a barrel, anyone have any other thoughts to get the performance, or just stick with the 10.3 for what it is (reliable, short, reasonably accurate)?

Current setup:
https://i.imgur.com/OfNLcw9.jpg

TGS HCM

[TGS]

That seems like an awful lot of money to swap out a barrel for extremely incremental improvements, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

Was that group shot suppressed or unsuppressed? NSWC Crane noted in their testing of the Mk18 that suppression tended to increase precision.

[rjohnson4405]

I bet this thing is a shooter:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023449810

ETA: Well, that being said, I have heard Noveske isn't what they used to be....

[Biggy]

Here is the 11.5" barrel I have. It has been totally reliable with and without a can on it. http://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-11-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-p207705041 (Gas port tuned for proper function with and without suppressor)

I also like the Criterion Core series barrels. https://criterionbarrels.com/products/ar-15/ar-15-core-series-carbine-gas/?v=7516fd43adaa (Gas port tuned for proper function with and without suppressor)

[Mike C]

ASH556, I've had several guns with FBI HRT barrels when they were reasonably priced. They all shot very well but they were/are pigs additionally, I haven't seen good pricing on them as of late. If I was going to drop a lot of money on just a barrel now with current costs of things and knowing I would hang a suppressor off the end of a short barrel I'd spend a little more and get a carbon wrapped barrel. It would save you over half a pound and help balance out the suppressor, if you went with something like a proof you'll get the accuracy you're looking for likely in spades outside of the weight savings. I believe the 11.5/12.5 to be worth the added length. There is good reason why everyone is moving to 11.5, or 11.5+.

I'll add if your heart is set on an HRT barrel go for it. You won't likely be disappointed with the accuracy from my experiences but keep in mind weight tends to add up unless that doesn't bother you. I personally hate a heavy ass gun, (unless they're belt fed) I hate even more inaccurate ones. That Noveske barrel is tempting though and the price is half what you'd spend on a proof or something like I would lean towards. Good stuff costs get what makes you happy that will work with in your accuracy/engagement range parameters and budget.

[HCM]

I'd appreciate some feedback on a potential re-construct of my rifle as pictured below. I've used a 10.3" based around a Colt barrel as my primary AR for several years now. Generally speaking I like it a lot and do not have reliability issues, even when running suppressed. What I'm wondering about is moving to an 11.5" barrel. An inch isn't that much (that's what she said), but the numbers say it's quite a bit when it comes to velocity. I use 62gr Speer Gold Dot, which is less reliant on velocity for terminal performance, but it's still only about a 150yd gun. My idea of a mini-recce is really a do-all gun. There's not enough distance in my local terrain to warrant a true long range gun, but the 200yd out to maybe a 400yd max envelope is realistic.

If I could just go buy an 11.5" Colt HRT barrel for anything like $300, I'd probably just do it and be done. Unfortunately the ones I can find are $500-$700. I do have a new-in-box factory Colt 10.3 as a backup/replacement to my current barrel along with a bolt. If I were to go 11.5, ultimately I would want two.

Finally, from an optics perspective, I have always had an Aimpoint on my 10.3 and when I had a magnified gun (LPVO or ACOG) it was on an upper built around a 14.5" SOCOM barrel. One thing I really liked about those barrels was their accuracy. Here's a 10-shot 100yd group out of one of those 14.5 SOCOM barrels using a 3.5X TA11 ACOG:

https://i.imgur.com/oc7RMcR.png

By contrast, this 10.3 Colt (gov profile) with same ammo is almost 2MOA:

https://i.imgur.com/BAruc7A.jpg

So my hope is that with an 11.5" HRT barrel, which is heavy profile, I could get more velocity = better terminal performance, plus the added accuracy benefit.
Short of forking out $500-$700 for a barrel, anyone have any other thoughts to get the performance, or just stick with the 10.3 for what it is (reliable, short, reasonably accurate)?

Current setup:
https://i.imgur.com/OfNLcw9.jpg

TGS HCM

11.5” is great for a GP carbine but if you really want a “mini recce” I would look hard at 12.5” barrel.

The question is mid length or carbine length. In terms of dwell time a 12.5” mid gas is proportionally similar to a 11.5” carbine gas. A carbine gas 12.5” is proportionately similar to a 14.5” mid length.

If you can wait a little bit I would try and snag a 12.5” Hodge barrel. While the Hodge rails and receivers are hard to find the BCG and barrels tend to be last at least a few days when they drop,

Other good 12.5” options would be DD, Centurion, BRT and TriArc.

[theJanitor]

12.5" middy Triarc barrels shoot very smoothly, and feel like they're much longer than they are. If you're hung up on colt barrels, cause you can shave down a FSB, you might want to consider a Triarc or Crit CORE 11.5 barrel and have a shop pin a gas block on for you. The core barrels aren't super light, but they balance well, to me

[rd62]

I recently ordered a 12.5 midlength Noveske barrel to swap out on my 10.5 LMT. The main goal was to accommodate my ape arms but also for the velocity gains. I'm also hoping to press this into a more general purpose role.

The 12.5 barrel was about $360 with gas block and tube.

[Clusterfrack]

...NSWC Crane noted in their testing of the Mk18 that suppression tended to increase precision.

No shit? Super interesting. That's what I've strongly suspected with my LMT Mk18.

[ASH556]

That seems like an awful lot of money to swap out a barrel for extremely incremental improvements, but the heart wants what the heart wants.

Was that group shot suppressed or unsuppressed? NSWC Crane noted in their testing of the Mk18 that suppression tended to increase precision.

Both groups were shot with that AAC M4-2000 pictured. I probably need to shoot another group with the setup as is. It was a cold, rainy day and the big dot in the center of the NX8 reticle covers a lot of that little white box. The gun was hot too so mirage from the suppressor. Lot's of "modifiers" as Defoor calls them or "bitch factors" as they probably really are excepting maybe the target and the mirage.

A lot of it is the mental "FWI" factor just because. Accuracy is one thing, terminal ballistics is another. Neither are probably as relevant as my OCD brain tries to pretend they are.

I do appreciate the conversation though.

[TGS]

Both groups were shot with that AAC M4-2000 pictured. I probably need to shoot another group with the setup as is. It was a cold, rainy day and the big dot in the center of the NX8 reticle covers a lot of that little white box. The gun was hot too so mirage from the suppressor. Lot's of "modifiers" as Defoor calls them or "bitch factors" as they probably really are excepting maybe the target and the mirage.

A lot of it is the mental "FWI" factor just because. Accuracy is one thing, terminal ballistics is another. Neither are probably as relevant as my OCD brain tries to pretend they are.

I do appreciate the conversation though.

Yeah, totally. I do the same thing.

Clusterfrack, trying to find the PDF for specifics. It was a test of 8 Mk18s, suppressed and unsuppressed firing schedule, using M855A1. Conducted in 2013, published 2015. As part of overall service life, they weren't just measuring the bolt life but also accuracy to detect shortened barrel life.

Of interest, they found the average bolt life on Mk18s firing both suppressed and unsuppressed M855A1(!) to be over 9k rounds. They also found that almost all stoppages were fixed by lubrication of the BCG.

I'm angry that I'm having trouble finding it, as I was just reading it a few weeks ago when HCM and I were talking about 10.3" vs 11.5" bolt lives.

[Sig_Fiend]

I'll preface this by saying, I normally lean towards the more expensive side of things as I prefer quality. So don't think this recommendation means I'm a peasant or have low standards. ;)

I recently discovered a brand, Expo Arms. Best I've been able to tell, their barrels appear to be sourced from Rosco. I've heard mixed reviews, but more positive than not.

These Expo barrels are so cheap and the profile is so unique (close to an HRT profile I believe plus .070" ports), I figured why not try a few for the hell of it. ;) I got an 11.5 and 10.3, but have not been able to make it to the range yet. That said, fit, finish, feed ramps, chamber, and chrome lining look good so far.

10.3 barrel (https://www.primaryarms.com/expo-arms-combat-series-556-chrome-lined-ar15-barrel-socom-carbine-10.3)
11.5 barrel (https://www.primaryarms.com/expo-arms-combat-series-11.5in-socom-contour-ar-15-barrel)

If you have the ability to easily swap out barrels yourself, the price is an attractive proposition IMO. Even if only as a gateway drug to figure out if you want to go with a Colt HRT barrel. ;)

[HCM]

I'll preface this by saying, I normally lean towards the more expensive side of things as I prefer quality. So don't think this recommendation means I'm a peasant or have low standards. ;)

I recently discovered a brand, Expo Arms. Best I've been able to tell, their barrels appear to be sourced from Rosco. I've heard mixed reviews, but more positive than not.

These Expo barrels are so cheap and the profile is so unique (close to an HRT profile I believe plus .070" ports), I figured why not try a few for the hell of it. ;) I got an 11.5 and 10.3, but have not been able to make it to the range yet. That said, fit, finish, feed ramps, chamber, and chrome lining look good so far.

10.3 barrel (https://www.primaryarms.com/expo-arms-combat-series-556-chrome-lined-ar15-barrel-socom-carbine-10.3)
11.5 barrel (https://www.primaryarms.com/expo-arms-combat-series-11.5in-socom-contour-ar-15-barrel)

If you have the ability to easily swap out barrels yourself, the price is an attractive proposition IMO. Even if only as a gateway drug to figure out if you want to go with a Colt HRT barrel. ;)

Expo is a "house brand" for Primary arms. The Expo Barrels are made by Rosco, the Expo rails by CMT etc.

I have one of their 10.3" barrels. They are decent general purpose barrels but not what I would want if trying to build something like a "mini Recce."

Like the "FN barrels" all Rosco barrels are not equal. You get what you pay for. Rosco does make a 12.5" barrel which is used in the SOLGW Sage Dynamics pistols / uppers and has decent accuracy.

Then again I've learned buy once cry once is cheaper overall than "placeholders."

[awp_101]

I'm angry that I'm having trouble finding it, as I was just reading it a few weeks ago when HCM and I were talking about 10.3" vs 11.5" bolt lives.
Is THIS (https://partner-mco-archive.s3.amazonaws.com/client_files/1527866983.pdf) it?

[TGS]

Is THIS (https://partner-mco-archive.s3.amazonaws.com/client_files/1527866983.pdf) it?

Nope, we're talking about Mk18s here.

[Sig_Fiend]

Expo is a "house brand" for Primary arms. The Expo Barrels are made by Rosco, the Expo rails by CMT etc.

I have one of their 10.3" barrels. They are decent general purpose barrels but not what I would want if trying to build something like a "mini Recce."

Like the "FN barrels" all Rosco barrels are not equal. You get what you pay for. Rosco does make a 12.5" barrel which is used in the SOLGW Sage Dynamics pistols / uppers and has decent accuracy.

Then again I've learned buy once cry once is cheaper overall than "placeholders."

Understood. I generally prefer going DD, Centurion, or other similar quality, so I totally get you on that.

[JSGlock34]

ETA: Well, that being said, I have heard Noveske isn't what they used to be....

Really? Someone better tell these guys...

The War Zone: About Those Custom Rifles Navy SEALs Were Seen Carrying On A Recent Training Mission
(https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40523/about-those-custom-rifles-navy-seals-were-seen-carrying-on-a-recent-training-mission)
https://www.thedrive.com/content/2021/05/SEAL-Rifle-Noveske.jpg?quality=85&width=1440&quality=70'

Interestingly, they're using 10.5" barrels for both 5.56mm and .300 Blackout, keeping the same form factor and setup regardless of caliber.

[Old Man Winter]

Really? Someone better tell these guys...
My understanding is those have been relegated to the arms room and there's a new flavor of the day.

[rd62]

Noveske has certainly taken an interesting marketing turn the last few years that's definitely not my flavor but I'm hoping the known commodity of their stainless barrels is still GTG.

[littlejerry]

I've been very happy with my BRT 12.5 barrel. It does use a proprietary gas tube though, an "intermediate" length between car and mid.

Paired with an A5 system it's been great suppressed and unsuppressed. Also very accurate. It has a "medium" tapered contour.

I've been tempted to buy a 16" barrel of theirs with the intermediate length gas system.

[JSGlock34]

Clusterfrack, trying to find the PDF for specifics. It was a test of 8 Mk18s, suppressed and unsuppressed firing schedule, using M855A1. Conducted in 2013, published 2015. As part of overall service life, they weren't just measuring the bolt life but also accuracy to detect shortened barrel life.

Of interest, they found the average bolt life on Mk18s firing both suppressed and unsuppressed M855A1(!) to be over 9k rounds. They also found that almost all stoppages were fixed by lubrication of the BCG.

I'm angry that I'm having trouble finding it, as I was just reading it a few weeks ago when HCM and I were talking about 10.3" vs 11.5" bolt lives.

When you dig it up I'd really be interested to read it as well.

[HCM]

Understood. I generally prefer going DD, Centurion, or other similar quality, so I totally get you on that.

Not a knock on Rosco / Expo. IME are among best thing in their price range. But they are what they are.

[Darth_Uno]

How accurate do you need to be? My 11.5 BCM lightweight can hit 6" plates at 100 yds all day long with junk .223. Hardly a feat of marksmanship, I know. And maybe not the best option for a good bit of suppressed fire.

If you want a pig of a barrel and an excellent choice for a mini-Recce, I'd look at the 12" Larue Stealth.

[trajiiic]

ASH556

There seems to be no discussion about ammo in this thread. What were you using that day of the range? What ammo brands/types/weights have you tried and do those have similar results?

I've always used 55gr m193 in my barrels, mostly due to range rules. My 16" I've zeroed to 100yds but the 10.3 and 7.5 guns are just zeroed to 50yds and I haven't shot them further. I plan on taking all of them out to 100yds with 3 different ammo types to see what the groups looks like. I'm hoping the IMI 77gr groups well since that's what is going in the short guns to replace the m193.

[ASH556]

ASH556

There seems to be no discussion about ammo in this thread. What were you using that day of the range? What ammo brands/types/weights have you tried and do those have similar results?

I've always used 55gr m193 in my barrels, mostly due to range rules. My 16" I've zeroed to 100yds but the 10.3 and 7.5 guns are just zeroed to 50yds and I haven't shot them further. I plan on taking all of them out to 100yds with 3 different ammo types to see what the groups looks like. I'm hoping the IMI 77gr groups well since that's what is going in the short guns to replace the m193.

My first post mentions 62gr Speer Gold dot as the ammo used.

[trajiiic]

My first post mentions 62gr Speer Gold dot as the ammo used.

hah, thanks. I guess I need to learn to read.

[HCM]

If you want a pig of a barrel and an excellent choice for a mini-Recce, I'd look at the 12" Larue Stealth.

The 12" Larue Stealth would be a good mini recce barrel.

[ASH556]

Lots of talk on ARF from some guys about the Wilson Combat SS 11.3.

My concern is I know of a guy who burnt an SS 10.5 Noveske down in very short order by shooting it suppresses in Magpul classes.

As much as I used the phrase “Mini Recce,” perhaps “General Purpose Carbine” is a more accurate phrase.

[Default.mp3]

https://i.imgur.com/bE9pFEP.jpg
n = 1, but I have seen 1 MOA performance out of my Centurion Arms 11.5" using Speer Gold Dot 75 gr at 100 yards using an RDS and a magnifier with a 10 shot group. Typically more of a 1.5 MOA gun with the Gold Dot with 10 shot groups, but miracles happens. Haven't tried it with anything like FGMM, but I would expect it to be around 1 MOA, too.

[theJanitor]

https://i.imgur.com/bE9pFEP.jpg
n = 1, but I have seen 1 MOA performance out of my Centurion Arms 11.5" using Speer Gold Dot 75 gr at 100 yards using an RDS and a magnifier with a 10 shot group. Typically more of a 1.5 MOA gun with the Gold Dot with 10 shot groups, but miracles happens. Haven't tried it with anything like FGMM, but I would expect it to be around 1 MOA, too.

I've witnessed a 11.5 centurion shoot one hole groups at 50 with 62gr. I've no reason to believe its not a 1" gun at 100

[rayrevolver]

The only upper I regret selling was a Noveske GPR 12.5" carbine gas, these were Johnny-era uppers. It was very accurate but when I got my boat anchor suppressor, I wanted to slim down to a 11.5" and then a 10.3".

Last year I bought a used upper with this barrel:
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-12-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-p258933205

I have only shot it indoors for function, so cannot really speak to accuracy. It is an extended gas system, short of mid, so it *should* shoot softer than a carbine. It is my GPR setup with a LVPO on top and will someday get a lightweight can on the end of it.

[littlejerry]

https://i.imgur.com/bE9pFEP.jpg
n = 1, but I have seen 1 MOA performance out of my Centurion Arms 11.5" using Speer Gold Dot 75 gr at 100 yards using an RDS and a magnifier with a 10 shot group. Typically more of a 1.5 MOA gun with the Gold Dot with 10 shot groups, but miracles happens. Haven't tried it with anything like FGMM, but I would expect it to be around 1 MOA, too.

Have you chronod that ammo? It's sloooow in my 12.5 at 2270 fps.

Barnes 70gr TSX is scooting along at 2675 in the same rifle.

[Default.mp3]

Have you chronod that ammo? It's sloooow in my 12.5 at 2270 fps.

Barnes 70gr TSX is scooting along at 2675 in the same rifle.I have, using a MagnetoSpeed:


Rifle (shots)
Ammo
Average FPS
Max FPS
Min FPS
SD


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (15)
Fusion MSR 64 gr
2825
2865
2795
19


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (5)
Gold Dot 64 gr
2759
2789
2741
18.8


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (10)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2611
2631
2577
16.4


11.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (10)
Gold Dot 64 gr
2536
2574
2495
28.6


11.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (10)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2471
2499
2436
19


10.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (5)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2245
2279
2222
20.8



Don't remember the weather for all those, but should be fairly balmy for most of them.

[JRB]

Lots of talk on ARF from some guys about the Wilson Combat SS 11.3.

My concern is I know of a guy who burnt an SS 10.5 Noveske down in very short order by shooting it suppresses in Magpul classes.

As much as I used the phrase “Mini Recce,” perhaps “General Purpose Carbine” is a more accurate phrase.

SS strikes me as a very poor choice for a 10.5" DI 5.56 barrel to begin with, let alone one that'll see rapid fire with a can on it.

If you've got a known good and well-sorted Colt 10.3 setup and a backup for it, I see no need or significant benefit whatsoever to replace that with essentially the same thing in 11.5in.

[littlejerry]

I have, using a MagnetoSpeed:


Rifle (shots)
Ammo
Average FPS
Max FPS
Min FPS
SD


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (15)
Fusion MSR 64 gr
2825
2865
2795
19


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (5)
Gold Dot 64 gr
2759
2789
2741
18.8


14.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC (10)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2611
2631
2577
16.4


11.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (10)
Gold Dot 64 gr
2536
2574
2495
28.6


11.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (10)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2471
2499
2436
19


10.5" CA with SOCOM556-RC2 (5)
Gold Dot 75 gr
2245
2279
2222
20.8



Don't remember the weather for all those, but should be fairly balmy for most of them.

Interesting. I wonder if velocities have changed? My lot is probably from ~2018. Even in my 16" rifle it's only 2542.

[HCM]

https://i.imgur.com/bE9pFEP.jpg
n = 1, but I have seen 1 MOA performance out of my Centurion Arms 11.5" using Speer Gold Dot 75 gr at 100 yards using an RDS and a magnifier with a 10 shot group. Typically more of a 1.5 MOA gun with the Gold Dot with 10 shot groups, but miracles happens. Haven't tried it with anything like FGMM, but I would expect it to be around 1 MOA, too.

I believe it. Centurions are great barrels.

For a “mini recognizance” build though the extra little bit of umph from a 12.5 helps at > 100.

If the OP is dead set on 11.5” Primary arms has the TriArc Track 11.5” barrens on sale. They are quite accurate barrels.

https://www.primaryarms.com/triarc-systems-track-2.0-556-carbine-barrel-11.5in?trk_msg=VB5IHBEOMPE417T1PSNQ2ATDVO&trk_module=sca&utm_campaign=Shopping%2BCart%2BAbandonment&utm_medium=email&trk_sid=57PFIBG652N39R74DC8OFS196C&utm_term=View%2BCart&trk_contact=4L3M1Q0S3RG2OS8IT0O1JKIBDG&trk_link=JBFFULHJUIAKJ4S68PR1F1EHA0&ts=1644350281910&utm_source=listrak&utm_content=SCA1%2BSTARS

[wolf76]

Yeah, totally. I do the same thing.

Clusterfrack, trying to find the PDF for specifics. It was a test of 8 Mk18s, suppressed and unsuppressed firing schedule, using M855A1. Conducted in 2013, published 2015. As part of overall service life, they weren't just measuring the bolt life but also accuracy to detect shortened barrel life.

Of interest, they found the average bolt life on Mk18s firing both suppressed and unsuppressed M855A1(!) to be over 9k rounds. They also found that almost all stoppages were fixed by lubrication of the BCG.

I'm angry that I'm having trouble finding it, as I was just reading it a few weeks ago when HCM and I were talking about 10.3" vs 11.5" bolt lives.

How are you defining bolt life- when cracks are detected via NDT or when the bolt shears a lug?

Was the PDF that you were referring to titled "TEST REPORT FOR M4A1/RIS II URG 10.3/M855A1 PERFORMANCE AND ENDURANCE TEST"? I saved a copy of said PDF online in the past but it's too large to attach onto this reply. Here's the sections from the PDF on the firing schedule used and the broken bolt data.

[bfoosh006]

@ASH556 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2839)

I haven't read the whole thread yet... but I am pretty sure the OP, will enjoy the info and velocities in this thread.

All suppressed, 10.5", 11.5", 12.5", and 14.5" chrono info with popular SD ammo. ( Much easier to read if you are a member )

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Suppressed-5-56-SBR-Velocity-Tests-41-Factory-Loads-from-10-5-11-5-12-5-and-14-5-ALL-DONE-/16-714088/?page=1

[TGS]

How are you defining bolt life- when cracks are detected via NDT or when the bolt shears a lug?

Was the PDF that you were referring to titled "TEST REPORT FOR M4A1/RIS II URG 10.3/M855A1 PERFORMANCE AND ENDURANCE TEST"? I saved a copy of said PDF online in the past but it's too large to attach onto this reply. Here's the sections from the PDF on the firing schedule used and the broken bolt data.

Yup! That's it! That's awesome you have it, thanks for posting it up. Would you be willing to email it to me? I just searched even using its title and couldn't find it, it must've been taken down.

Can you also post up the section on accuracy for Clusterfrack? What started the interest was the increased precision noted when suppressed.

[Default.mp3]

Yup! That's it! That's awesome you have it, thanks for posting it up. Would you be willing to email it to me? I just searched even using its title and couldn't find it, it must've been taken down.

Can you also post up the section on accuracy for @Clusterfrack (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=7807)? What started the interest was the increased precision noted when suppressed.https://www.warriorsunited.org/s/CRANE-Test-Data-Mk18.pdf

[Clusterfrack]

That's really interesting. If I'm understanding the data correctly the same Mk18's were shot suppressed and unsuppressed. Here's my read:


Average group size increases as round count increases.
Rate of increase in group size is independent of suppression up to 1200 rounds.
At 2400 rounds, there is a large increase in group size with a suppressor.
From 2400-4800 rounds group size declines with a suppressor, while group size continues to increase at a steady rate without a suppressor.
Above 4800 rounds, group size increases at a stead rate, but groups from suppressed guns are about 1" smaller

I'd like to know what the standard error of group size is within each data point. Is this pattern observed in all guns? Or just one gun acting wonky? I'm having a hard time coming up with a universal mechanism that explains this pattern.

My personal experience is from using a LMT Mk18 with a T1 at carbine matches for a year. I had a casual bet (which I won) about the viability of this gun out to 400+ yds. The Mk18 seemed noticeably more accurate with a Surefire Mini. Obviously, that's totally subjective and anecdotal.

84105


Yup! That's it! That's awesome you have it, thanks for posting it up. Would you be willing to email it to me? I just searched even using its title and couldn't find it, it must've been taken down.

Can you also post up the section on accuracy for Clusterfrack? What started the interest was the increased precision noted when suppressed.


https://www.warriorsunited.org/s/CRANE-Test-Data-Mk18.pdf

[ASH556]

@ASH556 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2839)

I haven't read the whole thread yet... but I am pretty sure the OP, will enjoy the info and velocities in this thread.

All suppressed, 10.5", 11.5", 12.5", and 14.5" chrono info with popular SD ammo. ( Much easier to read if you are a member )

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Suppressed-5-56-SBR-Velocity-Tests-41-Factory-Loads-from-10-5-11-5-12-5-and-14-5-ALL-DONE-/16-714088/?page=1

Those velocity numbers are different than another thread I read. Based on that, with a minimum expansion velocity of 1,800 FPS, my setup is good to 300.

[wolf76]

@Default, thanks for posting the link to the Mk18 PDF. When I made my previous post, I was unable to find the link using the title.

For those who shoot their Mk18 (with the .070 gas ports) suppressed, approximately how much increase in cyclic rate is there when using the Surefire SOCOM suppressor?

[Caballoflaco]

Slight aside, sorry Ash, but that paper also made me like my old idea of replacing the foward assist with some kind of replaceable quick dump lube cartridge. Just lock the bolt back, roll the rifle on its side and smash that lube button.

Something I had thought about after hearing Pressburg talk about running dry guns to make cleaning easier and then adding lube if it looked like it was going to be a long day.

[SLUZENE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiKk-4BvAZk

Mucho want. Wish they posted velocity and groups.

In this video or another one, it appears to be a Proof carbon, not steel.

The SBR that lives in my head is a 11.5 proof carbon, can and a LVPO.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

I had big plans for a heavy profile 11.5 Colt barrel, but when the prices got stupid, I sold and used the money toward an 11.5 URG-I clone upper built by John Thomas with an 11.5 DD barrel, though I think those barrels have been tough to find of late too. I'm still optic shopping so no performance data yet, but I have high expectations based on my previous DD experience.

[ASH556]

Thanks to a PM from a very helpful forum member I am now down this path!

84220

[TOTS]

Slight aside, sorry Ash, but that paper also made me like my old idea of replacing the foward assist with some kind of replaceable quick dump lube cartridge. Just lock the bolt back, roll the rifle on its side and smash that lube button.

Something I had thought about after hearing Pressburg talk about running dry guns to make cleaning easier and then adding lube if it looked like it was going to be a long day.
I remember that discussion. Just for clarification, I think his experience was specifically regarding the HK416 and it’s ability to get through a mag completely dry and then cleaned with compressed air unless they were in a no-shit gunfight. Then all the lube after taking cover.

[ASH556]

84513
84514

[ASH556]

84515
84516

[ASH556]

84517

[ASH556]

My absolute least favorite part of the process, but worth it for the security.

84518

[ASH556]

Boom, done! 8.4 oz heavier and 1.2in longer. Hopefully a bit more capable too!

84519

Before:
84520

After:
84521

[JRB]

ASH556 - have you taken it to the range yet? Any impressions/opinions on the change?

[ASH556]

ASH556 - have you taken it to the range yet? Any impressions/opinions on the change?

I always want the bad news first, so I'll start there: I haven't seen the accuracy gains I hoped for. I've only tried the 62gr Gold Dot load as that's my "go-to," but we're still close to 2MOA. Maybe there's some "shoot in" to be done? Maybe a different load will be more accurate? Below is a 7 round group because the first 3 fired were about 2" higher than this. I had un-mounted and re-mounted the suppressor and it took those 3 rounds (and potentially a few more) for the can to "settle in." An AAC M4-2000 is not known for it's precision, but generally once on and "carbonized" it tends to do ok. The last rounds in the group landed in the white, so hopefully a few groups later and most/all of the rounds would be in the white. Just trying not to totally waste lots of that ammo right now and also I ran out of time on that range session.

https://i.imgur.com/w5KFsmG.jpg

Now for the good points:
1. Velocity. I don't have a chrono, but an 11.5 is known to provide more velocity than a 10.3. That will increase the expansion threshhold distance and therefore the effective range of this rifle.
2. Gas. Even with a Crane Spec .070 gas port like my 10.3 had, when you add a suppressor, the back pressure, especially over multiple shot strings gets to you (gas to face). That was honestly the first thing I noticed with the first trigger pull through this new barrel: Much less recoil impulse and much less gas to face. I like it.
3. Handling. This has more to do with the longer handguard permitted by the longer barrel. 1" doesn't seem like that much (depends on how much you have to start with, amirite? ;) ), but from a handling perspective, I find this setup to be more comfortable and "swing" better if you will than the 10.3.

Thanks for asking.

[JRB]

I always want the bad news first, so I'll start there: I haven't seen the accuracy gains I hoped for. I've only tried the 62gr Gold Dot load as that's my "go-to," but we're still close to 2MOA. Maybe there's some "shoot in" to be done? Maybe a different load will be more accurate? Below is a 7 round group because the first 3 fired were about 2" higher than this. I had un-mounted and re-mounted the suppressor and it took those 3 rounds (and potentially a few more) for the can to "settle in." An AAC M4-2000 is not known for it's precision, but generally once on and "carbonized" it tends to do ok. The last rounds in the group landed in the white, so hopefully a few groups later and most/all of the rounds would be in the white. Just trying not to totally waste lots of that ammo right now and also I ran out of time on that range session.

(snip)

Now for the good points:
1. Velocity. I don't have a chrono, but an 11.5 is known to provide more velocity than a 10.3. That will increase the expansion threshhold distance and therefore the effective range of this rifle.
2. Gas. Even with a Crane Spec .070 gas port like my 10.3 had, when you add a suppressor, the back pressure, especially over multiple shot strings gets to you (gas to face). That was honestly the first thing I noticed with the first trigger pull through this new barrel: Much less recoil impulse and much less gas to face. I like it.
3. Handling. This has more to do with the longer handguard permitted by the longer barrel. 1" doesn't seem like that much (depends on how much you have to start with, amirite? ;) ), but from a handling perspective, I find this setup to be more comfortable and "swing" better if you will than the 10.3.

Thanks for asking.

Thanks for taking the time to answer! I've been in love with the 11.5 for a long time, my favorite personal AR is one built with a 100% factory Colt 6933 upper. But my first AR was a 16in Colt HBAR and that thing is a tack driver, so once you discovered that Colt 11.5 heavy barrel I got pretty excited. Recognizing the site you bought it from pulled very hard at my wallet, but not quite hard enough to buy one. Now that they're OOS I'm kind of regretting that despite the apparent lack of accuracy improvement.
Hopefully your setup settles in with more use and/or it shows excellence with a different load!

[Doc_Glock]

My absolute least favorite part of the process, but worth it for the security.

84518

Do you use some sort of jig to hold everything together while you drill the barrel or do they come pre drilled for the pin?

[ASH556]

Do you use some sort of jig to hold everything together while you drill the barrel or do they come pre drilled for the pin?

That’s the factory FSB chopped and ground down, then finished. So, it comes pinned from the factory. I do have dimpling and pinning jigs and have pinned gas blocks in the past. I just prefer to chop and bring an FSB if that’s an option. Not all barrels offer that option. It’s among the reasons I prefer to use Colt barrels; gas port sizing being another.

[HCM]

I always want the bad news first, so I'll start there: I haven't seen the accuracy gains I hoped for. I've only tried the 62gr Gold Dot load as that's my "go-to," but we're still close to 2MOA. Maybe there's some "shoot in" to be done? Maybe a different load will be more accurate? Below is a 7 round group because the first 3 fired were about 2" higher than this. I had un-mounted and re-mounted the suppressor and it took those 3 rounds (and potentially a few more) for the can to "settle in." An AAC M4-2000 is not known for it's precision, but generally once on and "carbonized" it tends to do ok. The last rounds in the group landed in the white, so hopefully a few groups later and most/all of the rounds would be in the white. Just trying not to totally waste lots of that ammo right now and also I ran out of time on that range session.

https://i.imgur.com/w5KFsmG.jpg

Now for the good points:
1. Velocity. I don't have a chrono, but an 11.5 is known to provide more velocity than a 10.3. That will increase the expansion threshhold distance and therefore the effective range of this rifle.
2. Gas. Even with a Crane Spec .070 gas port like my 10.3 had, when you add a suppressor, the back pressure, especially over multiple shot strings gets to you (gas to face). That was honestly the first thing I noticed with the first trigger pull through this new barrel: Much less recoil impulse and much less gas to face. I like it.
3. Handling. This has more to do with the longer handguard permitted by the longer barrel. 1" doesn't seem like that much (depends on how much you have to start with, amirite? ;) ), but from a handling perspective, I find this setup to be more comfortable and "swing" better if you will than the 10.3.

Thanks for asking.

I’m not surprised. Colt SOCOM type barrels are good but they are still service grade barrels. 2MOA is half the allowable service grade spec of 4MOA.

I can also tell you that gold dot and other duty type jacketed soft point ammo is not particularly accurate Due to defamation and therefore irregularity of the bullet tip. These small random deformations negate some of the advantage the higher quality control and consistency duty ammo affords.

In my own experience, Winchester 62 grain OTM ammo produces group size about half that of federal 223 bonded soft white or gold dots. This includes both the Winchester Swedish military practice I’m a loading and the purple version provided as DHS practice ammo.

It may seem odd that our practice ammo is more accurate than our duty ammo but for our anticipated uses the accuracy of the bonded jacket at Southpoint is good enough and the terminal ballistics are a higher priority than greater accuracy.

TLDR If you want to really see what the barrel is capable of you need to shoot something other than jacket at Southpoint or green tip. Preferably something with an OTM or ballistic bullet.

[Doc_Glock]

That’s the factory FSB chopped and ground down, then finished. So, it comes pinned from the factory. I do have dimpling and pinning jigs and have pinned gas blocks in the past. I just prefer to chop and bring an FSB if that’s an option. Not all barrels offer that option. It’s among the reasons I prefer to use Colt barrels; gas port sizing being another.

Oh geez I see now why you dread it.

[Wake27]

Thanks for taking the time to answer! I've been in love with the 11.5 for a long time, my favorite personal AR is one built with a 100% factory Colt 6933 upper. But my first AR was a 16in Colt HBAR and that thing is a tack driver, so once you discovered that Colt 11.5 heavy barrel I got pretty excited. Recognizing the site you bought it from pulled very hard at my wallet, but not quite hard enough to buy one. Now that they're OOS I'm kind of regretting that despite the apparent lack of accuracy improvement.
Hopefully your setup settles in with more use and/or it shows excellence with a different load!

Thoroughbred Armament Company has some uppers they built with these barrels and their receivers plus KAC URX 4s. Real nice setup and good price.l considering the parts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JRB]

Thoroughbred Armament Company has some uppers they built with these barrels and their receivers plus KAC URX 4s. Real nice setup and good price.l considering the parts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't seen a website more calibrated to empty my wallet in a long, long time. Thank you! (I think :) )

[jh9]

I’m not surprised. Colt SOCOM type barrels are good but they are still service grade barrels. 2MOA is half the allowable service grade spec of 4MOA.

I can also tell you that gold dot and other duty type jacketed soft point ammo is not particularly accurate Due to defamation and therefore irregularity of the bullet tip. These small random deformations negate some of the advantage the higher quality control and consistency duty ammo affords.

In my own experience, Winchester 62 grain OTM ammo produces group size about half that of federal 223 bonded soft white or gold dots. This includes both the Winchester Swedish military practice I’m a loading and the purple version provided as DHS practice ammo.

It may seem odd that our practice ammo is more accurate than our duty ammo but for our anticipated uses the accuracy of the bonded jacket at Southpoint is good enough and the terminal ballistics are a higher priority than greater accuracy.

TLDR If you want to really see what the barrel is capable of you need to shoot something other than jacket at Southpoint or green tip. Preferably something with an OTM or ballistic bullet.

On the subject of 11.5" barrels (BCM ELW-F), gold dots and accuracy... I'm also getting around 1.5" @ 100y from the 55rgr gold dots but between 2.5 to 2.75 with the purple box/case DHS ammo you mentioned (contract overrun 62gr OTMs bought from sgammo sometime in the last year or two). I originally chalked this up to my shitty rifle marksmanship for the gold dots. I assumed that should be shooting into an inch at 100 yards just because Premium Ammunition. I also didn't think much about the 62gr DHS practice ammo because bulk training ammo. What should I be able to reasonably expect from the purple box/case ammo? I was just going to blast it up in run-and-gun where the offset and group size didn't matter as much.

85677
85678
85679

55gr gold dots on top, 62gr purple case DHS(?) on the bottom two. The bottom two should have been 2x 5-shot groups but since counting is hard one is a 4-shot group and the other is 6.

This is fresh in my mind because I swapped muzzle devices and just yesterday got a chance to go out and check zero.

[HCM]

On the subject of 11.5" barrels (BCM ELW-F), gold dots and accuracy... I'm also getting around 1.5" @ 100y from the 55rgr gold dots but between 2.5 to 2.75 with the purple box/case DHS ammo you mentioned (contract overrun 62gr OTMs bought from sgammo sometime in the last year or two). I originally chalked this up to my shitty rifle marksmanship for the gold dots. I assumed that should be shooting into an inch at 100 yards just because Premium Ammunition. I also didn't think much about the 62gr DHS practice ammo because bulk training ammo. What should I be able to reasonably expect from the purple box/case ammo? I was just going to blast it up in run-and-gun where the offset and group size didn't matter as much.

85677
85678
85679

55gr gold dots on top, 62gr purple case DHS(?) on the bottom two. The bottom two should have been 2x 5-shot groups but since counting is hard one is a 4-shot group and the other is 6.

This is fresh in my mind because I swapped muzzle devices and just yesterday got a chance to go out and check zero.

I generally get 1-2 MOA with the purple stuff depending on the gun. 2ish with 11.5” with red dot and around 1MOA from a 16” hodge with a 1-6 LPVO.

The soft point duty ammo I’ve shot has been federal, bonded soft points in both 223 and 556 loadings and 64 grain gold dot. I usually get somewhere around 2.5 to 3.5 MOA with the soft points.

Like the purple pistol ammo the main downside to the purple rifle ammo IME is it’s filthy, especially if shooting suppressed.

[Biggy]

I use a 11.5 " inch Black River Tactical cold hammer forged, chrome lined, Optimum barrel. For me, it has the perfect barrel profile/ weight and gas porting for both suppressed and unsuppressed use. And yes, it is plenty accurate for it's intended purpose.

http://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-11-5-OPTIMUM-Hammer-Forged-Chrome-Lined-Barrel-p207705041

[theJanitor]

Ripcord industries has criterion core 11.5 barrels back in stock today.

I shot this with a fresh core barrel and xm193 at 50y (exps 3-0 / g33)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220309/87344db82daf2acbe8fdca5d43d0347e.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk