Multiple people shot near Empire State Building

[BaiHu]

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=national&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57499732/multiple-people-shot-at-empire-state-building/&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57499732

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[Sparks2112]

http://m.cbsnews.com/storysynopsis.rbml?pageType=national&url=http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57499732/multiple-people-shot-at-empire-state-building/&feed_id=1&videoid=37&catid=57499732

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How could this happen??? They should pass a law to make it illegal to shoot other people without their consent.

[Corlissimo]

How could this happen??? They should pass a law to make it illegal to shoot other people without their consent.

Pfft... What NYC really needs are gun control laws. It's like the Wild West up there. :rolleyes:

What the hell is Sheriff Bloomberg waiting for? He should be paying attention to what everyone's doing and enacting laws that limit behavior that's unsafe for the masses. :confused:

[Sparks2112]

Pfft... What NYC really needs are gun control laws. It's like the Wild West up there. :rolleyes:

What the hell is Sheriff Bloomberg waiting for? He should be paying attention to what everyone's doing and enacting laws that limit behavior that's unsafe for the masses. :confused:

It's terrible, we honestly can't trust people to be responsible for themselves. When WILL the government step in to protect everyone?

[LOKNLOD]

What the hell is Sheriff Bloomberg waiting for? He should be paying attention to what everyone's doing and enacting laws that limit behavior that's unsafe for the masses. :confused:

Well of course Bloomberg has done everything he can to keep evil terrible guns out of his jurisdiction, so clearly the problem is that the rest of the United States has guns that are easily smuggled across the border into NYC. Our freedom is his problem, and he'll be damned if he lets that slide...

Meanwhile ATF NY branch has been running 2Fast2Furious, to try to track illegal handguns through the city. :p ;)

[BaiHu]

More comprehensive update: http://www.businessinsider.com/three-people-reportedly-shot-outside-the-empire-state-building-2012-8

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[Corlissimo]

Well of course Bloomberg has done everything he can to keep evil terrible guns out of his jurisdiction, so clearly the problem is that the rest of the United States has guns that are easily smuggled across the border into NYC. Our freedom is his problem, and he'll be damned if he lets that slide...

Meanwhile ATF NY branch has been running 2Fast2Furious, to try to track illegal handguns through the city. :p ;)

Uh oh... I see a new agency in the making: NYCBP. I bet they'll oversee the NY/NJTA & NYPD too. You know, just like DHS oversees multiple agencies now. :rolleyes:

Next thing you know they'll have their own show on cable. :)

[JConn]

This is starting to become awfully convenient. I'm not a tin foil hat person but I haven't seen this many shootings reported in this short a period of time. I'm sure they are just making sure to report everything that supports their agenda where as normally nothing is said.

[iakdrago]

This is starting to become awfully convenient. I'm not a tin foil hat person but I haven't seen this many shootings reported in this short a period of time. I'm sure they are just making sure to report everything that supports their agenda where as normally nothing is said.

I completely agree. The only "good" to come out of this politically, is that it highlights that the problem is the person and not the gun. In addition, though the news story does not say what the gun was, it s safe to assume that given the circumstances it was illegal in NYC. Thus, highlighting that stricter laws are not the issue. Unfortunately I don't see the media portraying it that way in any near future...

[LHS]

I completely agree. The only "good" to come out of this politically, is that it highlights that the problem is the person and not the gun. In addition, though the news story does not say what the gun was, it s safe to assume that given the circumstances it was illegal in NYC. Thus, highlighting that stricter laws are not the issue. Unfortunately I don't see the media portraying it that way in any near future...

They'll put a different spin on it: "Oh no, NYC's gun laws work great, it's the rest of the country's backwards redneck laws that allow people to smuggle illegal guns into NYC!"

[bdcheung]

Updated reports say that the gunman shot one person, and that the others were possibly shot by NYPD.

[jkm]

The victims should sue NYC for disarming them and then not protecting them.

[bdcheung]

Surprisingly, NYC is may-issue.

[Zhurdan]

Reported that the gunman had an additional 8 round magazine. Earlier they'd reported it was a .45 cal pistol.

NO Hi-cap mag used, but I'm sure they'll say that's why it wasn't worse.

Prayers to the wounded and the family of the dead.

[Corlissimo]

The victims should sue NYC for disarming them and then not protecting them.

Nice idea, but I don't think that dog will hunt in light of SCOTUS Castle Rock v. Gonzales decision.

[iakdrago]

Surprisingly, NYC is may-issue.

From what I understand, they "may issue" is equivalent to "unattainable" for the average citizen. There are very few permits issued in NYC.

[LOKNLOD]

Updated reports say that the gunman shot one person, and that the others were possibly shot by NYPD.

Any more on this? As much as I would like some turn of events to change the focus of away from Bloomberg's inevitable rants, NYPD shooting more innocents at the scene than the active shooter is not the way i'd like to see that play out...

[Corlissimo]

Surprisingly, NYC is may-issue.

Yeah, they "may issue" if you pay the right folks for the privilege, or are "friends" of City Hall. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I know two retired NYPD guys from my old hockey days, and even they weren't able to procure CCW permits, even before Nanny Bloomberg was in office. It's been a while since I left NY and I don't know all the particulars of their requests (lost touch with them since I've gone) but both guys were pretty even-keeled fellows.

[iakdrago]

Yeah, they "may issue" if you pay the right folks for the privilege, or are "friends" of City Hall. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I know two retired NYPD guys from my old hockey days, and even they weren't able to procure CCW permits, even before Nanny Bloomberg was in office. It's been a while since I left NY and I don't know all the particulars of their requests (lost touch with them since I've gone) but both guys were pretty even-keeled fellows.

Rober De Niro has one...

[derekb]

From a facebook friend who lives in the city:


Sick of guns. Can they be illegal already?! There isn't one good reason they should remain a right.

It would be uncouth to mention that murder's already illegal, right?

[bdcheung]

Any more on this? As much as I would like some turn of events to change the focus of away from Bloomberg's inevitable rants, NYPD shooting more innocents at the scene than the active shooter is not the way i'd like to see that play out...

From Gothamist (http://gothamist.com/2012/08/24/bloomberg_press_conference_on_empir.php#photo-1):

"A man who had been fired from his job about a year or so began shooting near the Empire State Building on the street," Bloomberg said. "He killed one person and 9 others were shot, and some may have been shot accidentally by police officers who responded."

[Sparks2112]

From Gothamist (http://gothamist.com/2012/08/24/bloomberg_press_conference_on_empir.php#photo-1):

"A man who had been fired from his job about a year or so began shooting near the Empire State Building on the street," Bloomberg said. "He killed one person and 9 others were shot, and some may have been shot accidentally by police officers who responded."

What you want to bet EVERY person shot other than the initial victim was shot by the polic? Any takers?

[LOKNLOD]

From a facebook friend who lives in the city:

It would be uncouth to mention that murder's already illegal, right?

It would be very couth to point out that by living in that city, they have already chosen to surrender the right, but are not free to make that choice for others.

[Chemsoldier]

This is starting to become awfully convenient. I'm not a tin foil hat person but I haven't seen this many shootings reported in this short a period of time. I'm sure they are just making sure to report everything that supports their agenda where as normally nothing is said.

There seems to be some thought that mass shootings are contagious behavior, like suicidescan be. Crazy people see it and some think that it is a good idea. So it should seem kind of suspicious, not because an external force is staging them but the intial events precipitate later bad actors emulating them. The problem at this point is that the "mass killer" is a part of our national psyche now. A certain number of people will have the idea even if the media didnt report any new shootings. Of course a certain number of people will do it anyway (see the Bath School Massacre, 1927 that was certainly before this sort of phenomena was well known)

[G60]

The facts are still coming in, and this looks like it might be a disaster for Bloomberg and everyone else trying to exploit it as "the latest mass shooting." NYPD has said that the shooter did NOT fire at police. He used a .45 with 8 round capacity, using 3 rounds to kill his former coworker. There are conflicting reports as to whether he only shot his ex-coworker, or if he also shot Into the crowd. His only victim may have been his ex coworker, with whom he's had a history of conflict with, and the rest of the wounded by NYPD.

[TCinVA]

It would look pretty bad for the Mayor of Gun Control if the cops shot more people than the shooter.

[bdcheung]

The mayor said that some of the injured may have been hit by police bullets during the confrontation with the suspect, whom Mr. Kelly identified as Jeffrey Johnson, 58, a former clothing designer at Hazan Imports. Mr. Kelly said that the two officers fired a total of 14 rounds and that he believed some of the shooting victims had been shot by the officers “based on the number of people shot and the capacity of” the gunman’s weapon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/several-people-shot-one-fatally-outside-empire-state-building.html

[LHS]

Based on MSNBC, Mayor Blumpkin is already spinning it as the low capacity of the gun being the reason that only one person was killed by the shooter. I'd say it's because he only shot at one person. This was not a mass shooting, it was a premeditated murder of a person the shooter disliked, in a public place. And it sounds like it was followed by suicide by cop.

[F-Trooper05]

The mayor said that some of the injured may have been hit by police bullets

You mean a 600 lb trigger pull can lead to misses? Shock.

[bdcheung]

You mean a 600 lb trigger pull can lead to misses? Shock.

So the four rules of gun safety don't apply to LEOs? A 8-12lb trigger isn't helping, but let's not forget...


All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

[Corlissimo]

It would look pretty bad for the Mayor of Gun Control if the cops shot more people than the shooter.

I know they have a hard enough job, but maybe Bloomberg's gun control should include the NYPD. [/sarcasm]

[TCinVA]

So the four rules of gun safety don't apply to LEOs? A 8-12lb trigger isn't helping, but let's not forget...


All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.



All those are true.

However...applying all of those in real time during a critical incident is not as easy as some might think...and it's not like NYC goes broke training its officers in the use of the sidearms. They'll diversity train the snot out of them, but firearms....ick.

[Corlissimo]

16 shots at 8 feet. Nine bystanders hit. Really?

What I'd love to know is how many rounds Mr. Johnson actually took and where he was hit.

[LHS]

16 shots at 8 feet. Nine bystanders hit. Really?

What I'd love to know is how many rounds Mr. Johnson actually took and where he was hit.

Keep in mind, those rounds could have hit Johnson AND gone through to hit other bystanders. I can't imagine trying to process all the bystanders on a busy NY street while a bad guy is trying to shoot me.

[Nephrology]

Keep in mind, those rounds could have hit Johnson AND gone through to hit other bystanders. I can't imagine trying to process all the bystanders on a busy NY street while a bad guy is trying to shoot me.

I am willing to bet that more than one round went off target. At least.

[G60]

NYPD has released surveillance video of the shooting of the gunman.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/shot_at_empire_state_building_Ycd08ZMPwDQf7r8qSKX3 yO

[xray 99]

Where's that big ape when you need him?

[Jason F]

Heard the hail of PD rounds referred to as "stray rounds" tonight when referring to the wounded bystanders.

"Stray" - yeah. #facepalm

[NETim]

Attention NYPD! The purpose of shooting is hitting.

[MikeO]

So, we have one bad who guy fires 5 shots, kills one. Two good guys who fire 16 shots, kill 1 bad guy and wound 9 good guys.

Sooner or later, somebody is gonna spin this as why CCW for civilians is a bad idea. You know: imagine how much worse it would have been if untrained civilians had shot at the guy? Or the cops had to figure out who was the bad guy if the bad guy and good guy(s) were trading shots when they showed up? IIRC, NYC has over 2000 licensed to carry. Not much out of 8 million. Bad guy got his gun in Fl in 1991, did not have a NYC permit to own, let alone carry.

In the video noticed the cops crossing each other early on; good thing they sorted that out, didn't shoot each other.

[G60]

NYPD commish: All 9 bystanders injured by police gunfire: http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-response?cat=world&type=article

[TCinVA]

Thaaaaat's gonna leave a mark.

[ToddG]

Sooner or later, somebody is gonna spin this as why CCW for civilians is a bad idea. You know: imagine how much worse it would have been if untrained civilians had shot at the guy?

... or what if the initial victim himself had been armed and able to defend himself? The whole thing may have ended before the police even got there.


NYPD commish: All 9 bystanders injured by police gunfire

I'd be interested to know what, if any, changes have been made to NYPD qualification and training since Bloomberg took office. Because if they get so much as one less round a year to practice or one less minute of training on the range, that's a story right there...

[Jason F]

Just heard the news about NYPD confirming all the bystanders were shot by the police on the radio at 2:30. Also in the story it said, "NYPD confirms they were two veteran officers, thought neither had used his gun in the line of duty before".

Hmmm, covering our tails much???

This is going to cost NYC big time. Too bad it can't be paid for by Bloomberg himself.... unless like Todd said there's been some tinkering to the qualifications process based on his input, then THAT would be a very intriguing story.

[MikeyC]

http://www.latimes.com/la-empire-state-building-shooting-victims-hit-by-police-gunfire-nypd-says-20120825,0,7650743.story

16 rounds total, 10 in the bad guy, 9 bystanders hit. Sounds like some over penetration, a buttload of ricochets or somebody is bad at math

[TCinVA]

I think some of the people hit were hit with frag. Not shocking and probably not really harmful..although I'm sure at least half of them will attempt to claim permanent disability and severe emotional damage as a result.

[CCT125US]

Anyone happen to know the going rate for innocent bystander shot by NYPD? This will be interesting to see how they knee jerk in the aftermath. Someone will have to take blame, can't say I would be mad if it was Bloomberg.

[Chuck Haggard]

We have found at my job that the 124gr +P Gold Dot tends to exit, even on solid torso hits. Doesn't have much zap left afterwards though. I have been told that almost all of the people who were shot were actually "shot". Concrete and/or bullet frag.

Ever been on a range where they are shooting steel and catch a jacket? The you too have been "shot".

[Nephrology]

Anyone happen to know the going rate for innocent bystander shot by NYPD? This will be interesting to see how they knee jerk in the aftermath. Someone will have to take blame, can't say I would be mad if it was Bloomberg.

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/268431-2010-nypd-firearms-discharge-report.html

3 bystanders hit in 33 "legitimate" (i.e. not accidental discharges) OISes.

That said, many of those shootings took place in the outer boroughs (Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx) where there is less pop density.

[MikeO]

Things were worse when NYPD issued 9mm FMJ. In 95/96, 65 bystanders and other cops were hit by NYPD bullets. 22 were hit by FMJ bullets that went through somebody else first. Another 43 were hit by misses and ricochets. Those 2 years, NYPD hit each other more often than they hit bystanders.

This time 3 bystanders were hit by whole bullets and required surgery. Don't know if those bullets hit anything else first.