Advice about 911 calling around knife defense specifically (and applicable in general

[Totem Polar]

This article popped up during a bit of coffee time research on current knife laws, and the part about hanging up really jumped out at me—in particular because it contradicts other advice I’ve heard and read over the years. I figured it might be worth a discussion:

https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/aftermath/

The excerpt in question:
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1. If the threat is imminent and there is no safe way to avoid the threat (always your best option), but there is time for you, or a companion, to do it safely, call 9-1-1. After the 9-1-1 operator asks “What is your emergency?” provide ONLY the following information. Speak slowly and clearly:

1. I/we are in fear of physical harm and are in imminent danger from an armed person/group or violent person/group (as appropriate) and are unable to retreat safely.”
2. Describe the threat (clothing, height, location, direction of travel and the weapon(s) (gun, club, knife, etc) if able. Do NOT describe the threat with details such as their race, their politics or affiliation, or any similar descriptive terms. That might come back to haunt you.
3. Give your name and location, describe yourself and any companions (clothing, height, etc.)
4. DON’T SAY ANYTHING MORE! HANG UP! DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE when 9-1-1 calls back!
NOTE: The most important thing about calling 9-1-1 is to HANG UP IMMEDIATELY AFTER you have provided the essential information required in order for law enforcement and medical to respond. Do not answer when they call back!

Remember, what you say can and will be used against you. The call is recorded and will be made available to the news media that will likely sensationalize anything you say. Your adrenaline is high, you may well be in shock and you will say things you shouldn’t that seemed innocent enough at the time, but will be turned against you. HANG UP!

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Discuss, and thanks in advance folks.


(Obligatory tag to Mas for if and when he has the time…)

[Mas]

Interesting take on the topic. I would respectfully disagree on a point or two.

I'm inclined to maintain the connection with 9-1-1. It puts you only one relay away from responding officers in a situation which has potential to rapidly change. I would also disagree with not mentioning race: it's an important identifier, just like approximate height and weight, clothing, etc. I think one should give a physical description of themself, as the complainant, in further hopes of preventing a mistaken identity situation.

[Totem Polar]

Mas

That’s about what I figured. I am grateful for the rapid and expert input on this topic, among others, Maestro.

[AMC]

Mas is being polite. Some of the advice there is extremely poor. You're going to be asked to describe any threats/assailants, and those descriptors will include the race, clothing, age and other characteristics. They are NOT going to ask about political affiliation or other nonsense. They'll ask what the subject is doing, what they look like, and where they are. Since the latter can change, they may ask you to stay on the line. Pulling cute stuff like hanging up and not answering call backs is likely to do nothing but frustrate first responders, and possibly lead to them regarding you as less than cooperative. If you can't stay on the line for safety, so be it. But this manipulative cutesy BS advice is just that.....BS. My 2 cents.

[Sero Sed Serio]

As an attorney I want the incident recorded to minimize disputes between interested parties at any sort of trial. I also would want my client to appear reasonable and cooperative with emergency services. What I do not want is my client offering opinions about facts or explanations about what they did or why they did it beyond the bare minimum to get first responders there, make sure they survive the arrival of LE, and provide info about any outstanding suspects. The further explanation about why you were in fear for your life and we’re therefore acting reasonably when you fired two rounds into the bad man’s chest will come after a lengthy interrogation at my office where I test your story and make sure that what you thought was justified actually was and the likelihood that a Detective/Prosecutor/jury will agree with your assessment of the reasonableness.

In my experience, most of the time when people try to play legalese word games with cops/lawyers/on the stand, they come across as evasive, unlikeable people who are playing games. Speak like a human being, convey the bare minimum information needed to deal with the emergency, and invoke your right to counsel as early as possible.

[JohnO]

4. DON’T SAY ANYTHING MORE! HANG UP! DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE when 9-1-1 calls back!
NOTE: The most important thing about calling 9-1-1 is to HANG UP IMMEDIATELY AFTER you have provided the essential information required in order for law enforcement and medical to respond. Do not answer when they call back!


I think you may be overlooking the fact that you can't Hang Up on 9-1-1. Specifically with a cell phone which is very likely the device used to call outside your home and for many now inside too. 9-1-1 will lock your connection open. So If you think you can hit end call and pocket your phone well you may be in for a surprise if you run your mouth when you ASSUME the connection has been terminated.

[Cookie Monster]

I think you may be overlooking the fact that you can't Hang Up on 9-1-1. Specifically with a cell phone which is very likely the device used to call outside your home and for many now inside too. 9-1-1 will lock your connection open. So If you think you can hit end call and pocket your phone well you may be in for a surprise if you run your mouth when you ASSUME the connection has been terminated.

Can others reply and say if this is factual or not?

Don’t take it personally JohnO, I am generally curious and don’t believe everything I see on the inter webs.

I was going to call 911 and ask but they probably have better things.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve never heard calling 911 locking the cell phone open. What I do remember on a lot of emergency calls is the dispatcher saying the caller hung up and the dispatcher or complaint operator is calling them back.

[Caballoflaco]

Can others reply and say if this is factual or not?

Don’t take it personally JohnO, I am generally curious and don’t believe everything I see on the inter webs.

I was going to call 911 and ask but they probably have better things.

Last 911 call I made involving a car accident the police showed up in the middle of me talking to the operator. I told her cops were there, I had to go help the victim and hung up without a problem.

[Le Français]

Either way, when one is carrying a cell phone, one should not assume that what one says is not being recorded.

[JohnO]

I may be dead wrong about 911 locking your line open on a cell phone. I was basing my comment on something I remember from a good while ago. I swear I experienced this happening but like I said I may be dead wrong. I've been under the impression since that they have to release your line.

Sorry for dropping some bogus info. (if so).

[Larry Sellers]

I was on the other end of 911 calls for about 5 years. Some phones would go into emergency "mode" when you called 911. People hang/hung up daily, we will attempt to call you back and make contact. If I am being completely honest, the caller who was coherent, matter of fact and even modestly cooperative was an easier call to handle and dispatch to officers. Keeping that line open is 100% the way to go if possible, any dispatcher/call taker with a clue will listen in for information about what's going on in the background etc, and its recorded.

[jnc36rcpd]

When the dispatcher advises that the complainant was uncooperative with the calltaker, refused to answer questions, or hung up on the calltaker, it sets a certain tone for my interaction with the complainant. The complainant may not care for my tone.

Caballoflaco, that does not apply to circumstances such as you describe. On the contrary, a surprising number of people insist on talking with 911 when the 911 response force is standing directly in front of them.

[AMC]

When the dispatcher advises that the complainant was uncooperative with the calltaker, refused to answer questions, or hung up on the calltaker, it sets a certain tone for my interaction with the complainant. The complainant may not care for my tone.

Caballoflaco, that does not apply to circumstances such as you describe. On the contrary, a surprising number of people insist on talking with 911 when the 911 response force is standing directly in front of them.

I have had people literally shush me and tell me "I'm on the phone with the police!"......as I stood in front of them in full uniform, with a black and white with its red and blues on parked behind me. You can't make this shit up.

[Larry Sellers]

I have had people literally shush me and tell me "I'm on the phone with the police!"......as I stood in front of them in full uniform, with a black and white with its red and blues on parked behind me. You can't make this shit up.

Similar to what occurs to us on ems runs. Person is mumbling on the phone to the dispatcher with a handful of emts standing in front of them.

“You can hangup now”


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[CraigS]

My understanding is that you want to make the 911 call because it can sometimes be important to be the first to call them rather than the perp. I can understand the 'be careful what you say because it can be used against you' but I'd rather limit my talking than hang up. I view 911 as my friend (which the person making those recommendations doesn't seem to) so I would never hang up until told to do so. Also I know they can track your location while on the call but am not sure if they can track it after you hang up. I once called to report a situation on an interstate and 911 asked where I was. It was kind of typical long drive and, since I knew I had 2 hours to go, I was not paying attention to exit numbers so I was not sure which exit I had passed recently. 30 seconds later she says she has me on their tracking equipment.

[peterb]

Similar to what occurs to us on ems runs. Person is mumbling on the phone to the dispatcher with a handful of emts standing in front of them.

“You can hangup now”

The flip side of that is the people who hang up immediately because they don’t think the dispatcher can talk to them and dispatch help at the same time. It’s as if they think the dispatch center has one phone line.

There’s room for some public education there — a PSA on how dispatch works might be useful.

In general, dispatchers prefer people to stay on the line if possible until help arrives.

[Larry Sellers]

The flip side of that is the people who hang up immediately because they don’t think the dispatcher can talk to them and dispatch help at the same time. It’s as if they think the dispatch center has one phone line.

There’s room for some public education there — a PSA on how dispatch works might be useful.

In general, dispatchers prefer people to stay on the line if possible until help arrives.

Absolutely, CPR instructions are usually pretty helpful as well as real time updates for us as we’re on the way.

The flip, flip side is the instances when the dispatcher says “are you calling about xyz? We already have help coming.” Which unfortunately sometimes loses out on information that they don’t already have, or information that’s different or helpful. Especially with violent incidents in the day when either EVERYONE calls or you get one non emergency call on it.


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[BehindBlueI's]

Fear of mentioning race is dumb. Obviously use polite/proper terms, but I can pretty much assure you that a dispatcher who's not a moron is going to ask as part of the description. Now what? I'd rather not say?

Hanging up and not answering back is full tilt idiocy. Stay on the line until the cavalry arrives if you can.

Saying you can't safely retreat is kind of...pointless at best.

[Coyotesfan97]

When the dispatcher advises that the complainant was uncooperative with the calltaker, refused to answer questions, or hung up on the calltaker, it sets a certain tone for my interaction with the complainant. The complainant may not care for my tone.

Caballoflaco, that does not apply to circumstances such as you describe. On the contrary, a surprising number of people insist on talking with 911 when the 911 response force is standing directly in front of them.


I have had people literally shush me and tell me "I'm on the phone with the police!"......as I stood in front of them in full uniform, with a black and white with its red and blues on parked behind me. You can't make this shit up.

It’s always refreshing to see something’s in policing are universal.

[farscott]

I think you may be overlooking the fact that you can't Hang Up on 9-1-1. Specifically with a cell phone which is very likely the device used to call outside your home and for many now inside too. 9-1-1 will lock your connection open. So If you think you can hit end call and pocket your phone well you may be in for a surprise if you run your mouth when you ASSUME the connection has been terminated.

As someone who traveled a lot at night, I have made more than a few 911 calls due to impaired drivers and/or to report accidents. A 911 call can be ended by the caller using either the "end call" button or by putting the phone in "airplane mode". Not sure why I would ever do either as I can shove the phone in my pocket with the speaker ON or with earbuds active and still communicate while my hands are free.

[Wise_A]

911 calltaking, still working. In my jurisdiction, it's going to go:

*Location
*Location confirmation via X-street, landmark, etc
*Phone number
*What's going on?

Starting off with a bunch of bullshit about how you're in fear for your life is going to delay the response and piss me off. Of course, the very premise of this advice is bogus--nobody calls before or during a physical altercation. As in, the only time I can recall actively listening to someone get the shit kicked out of them was a disabled guy being assaulted with a chair by his son.

"What happened" should be brief: "I was coming out of the WalMart and a man attacked me with a tire iron" is good. Then we're going to have questions--keep the answers brief and answer them, even if you have to say "I don't know". If you have a weapon, for the love of Christ, let us know. We may ask you to put it away if it's safe. We may ask you what you're wearing.

In describing subjects: Gender, race, age, build, clothing, height, weight. Get a direction of travel if they leave. A vehicle registration is best if they leave in a vehicle. Vehicle descriptions are often hilariously bad--I once had a blue F150 pickup described as a Lexus SUV.

If you have to get off the phone because the subject is coming back, tell us that and put it in your pocket.

Your best option for not sounding bad on a recording is to be as calm as possible. If it goes to court the dispatcher will also be making an appearance.

I have very specific goals when I'm dispatching. I want all my guys--police, EMS, and fire--to go home uninjured. I want my cops to not have to use force. I want everybody to know what I know. I want to help the caller. I want to give the victim the best chance possible. And if we're not successful at the "everybody goes home", I want to be able to say I did everything humanly possible to prevent that, because otherwise I don't know how I'd handle it.


I think you may be overlooking the fact that you can't Hang Up on 9-1-1. Specifically with a cell phone which is very likely the device used to call outside your home and for many now inside too. 9-1-1 will lock your connection open. So If you think you can hit end call and pocket your phone well you may be in for a surprise if you run your mouth when you ASSUME the connection has been terminated.

I would love to be able to lock a connection open. I would pay money out of my check to make that happen.

[Totem Polar]

Thanks Wise_A