Alfa Foxtrot 15rd 1911/2011 type pistol, ~size of G43X

[spyderco monkey]

This looked cool:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/25/shot-2022-alpha-foxtrot-1911-s15/

https://alphafoxtrot.us/af1911-s-government/

Micro doublestack 1911 that uses 15rd Shield G43X/G48 mags for $1500. Like an economy Wilson EDCX9

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG_3523.jpg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG_3519.jpg

[RJ]

I gotta admit that looks pretty cool, and I know less than nothing about 1911s. Dasan is the Korean outfit that opened a facility in Duluth GA in 2014?

https://www.industryweek.com/expansion-management/article/21962910/korean-manufacturer-to-open-plant-in-georgia

I wonder if they make the parts offshore and assemble in Duluth, or make everything in the US. I'd guess the former...Regarding the use of the Shield mags, that is pretty neat. Be good to see other shooting or longer term reviews of this once it's released...ETA: I am not sure what the target market is for this, with most sales these days in the micro-compact skinny 9mm sfa polymer category (Glock slimline, Sig P365, Shield Plus, etc.)

[Poconnor]

Looks interesting. I wish they were using 4.25” commander slides with a barrel bushing. I think this will be a hard sell at that price.

[Bucky]

Too bad it has a grip safety. :(

[LittleLebowski]

“Economy” small, double stack 1911.

“Pass”.

[HCountyGuy]

Can't say I've been impressed with Alpha Foxtrot's products that I've messed with thus far. We've had their metal-framed Glock clones in our store and the weight wasn't well balanced and the trigger was absolutely horrific.

[HeavyDuty]

Too bad it has a grip safety. :(

That’s actually a plus in my book. Horses for courses.

[RevolverRob]

It looks interesting. I was reading about it yesterday.

I do sort of wish they'd just jumped in whole hog and gone for a G19 mag. But the Shield Arms mag choice is interesting. Certainly makes the mags cheaper than any double-stack 1911 mag out there.

Of course, I want to see them 1) In person. 2) Be run through enough rounds to determine reliability/function 3) A breakdown to see how many parts are proprietary vs. a 1911/2011

The last point is pretty critical, because the few parts it shares, the less likely you are to be able to fix it when the company inevitably goes away.

[Jim Watson]

I think the type has interest, see the expensive Wilson and the midrange S&W CSX.
But an off brand gun designed around an off brand magazine, priced like an upper-middle class outfit is less interesting.


As far as parts commonality goes, I would look at the SA EMP with "only" eleven nonstandard parts and expect about the same.

[MattyD380]

I really didn't know anything about this company. But the gun looks interesting. I also didn't know you could get double-stack magazines for single-stack Glocks. That's cool they're adapting it to the 1911 platform. Metal guns in this size range are always interesting to me. Though reliability is always the question.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

The parent company in question has been making frames, slides, barrels and small parts for a long time for the US market when it comes to 1911's. There has just been other well known custom/semi custom builders names on them...

I am unaware if these are made from foreign forgings and final machined here (my guess) or made offshore and assembled here...

[03RN]

“Economy” small, double stack 1911.

“Pass”.

"Economy"

"$1500"

"LOL"

[Bucky]

"Economy"

"$1500"

"LOL"

“Economy”? No. “Economy Double-stack 1911”? Probably.

[spyderco monkey]

"Economy"

"$1500"

"LOL"

The closest design competitor I'm aware of is the Wilson EDC X9, which starts at $2999, so as odd as it seems, $1500 is economy for this sort of pistol.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/edc-x9/

[JPedersen]

I am intrigued … but agree that Shield Arms is an odd donkey to hitch your cart to! Common Glock 19 mags = big win ! I am following g this thread though !


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[MattyD380]

It really does seem like the sfx9 (or whatever they call the subcompact with no grip panels) from Wilson. For half the price. The Shield magazine aspect is very intriguing—I feel like double stacks often feed better. So, maybe this would work well? Plus, they mention the reduced grip dimensions (I’m guessing front-back depth) which might improve ergos/ trigger reach.

[Inkwell 41]

https://videos.recoilweb.com/watch/playlist/homepage/uOgKKeGHl7im-shot-show-2022-best-of-awards

Didn’t see any other coverage of the other Alpha Foxtrot 1911ish model that uses CZ75 magazines. Starts at about 1:07 in.

[spyderco monkey]

https://videos.recoilweb.com/watch/playlist/homepage/uOgKKeGHl7im-shot-show-2022-best-of-awards

Didn’t see any other coverage of the other Alpha Foxtrot 1911ish model that uses CZ75 magazines. Starts at about 1:07 in.

Great find, that does look really cool. Like the DWX, but hopefully actually entering production. The biggest drawback to 2011s is the $100, dubiously reliable mags, so a 2011 type pistol that runs $20 MecGar mags would b fantastic.

https://i.ibb.co/Nn0GnKZ/Screen-Shot-2022-01-26-at-11-41-36-PM.png

[Bucky]

I am intrigued … but agree that Shield Arms is an odd donkey to hitch your cart to! Common Glock 19 mags = big win ! I am following g this thread though !


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Glock 19 mags, as good as they are, are FAT.

If it takes the Shield Arms magazine, it likely takes a factory Glock 48 magazine.

[JPedersen]

Glock 19 mags, as good as they are, are FAT.

If it takes the Shield Arms magazine, it likely takes a factory Glock 48 magazine.

You are so right !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Elwin]

I think it’s a good idea and certainly not the last offering we’ll see if a 1911ish thing taking some other pistol’s double stack 9mm magazine. That said I’m not sure about this company or some of the features of this pistol. And I’d agree with others that hitching my $1500 boat to a boutique magazine wouldn’t give me the warm fuzzies.

I think it’s an indicator of better things to come. The popularity of Staccatos and the X9s shows there’s a market to be tapped for a 1911ish taking something besides a 2011 mag but not costing $3000+ for the pistol. If not Dan Wesson, someone is going to come up with a solid competitor to the X9 series that undercuts Wilson on price. Maybe more than one someone. They should just follow DW in using CZ75 Compact mags, unless I’m forgetting another super common, affordable, similar sized 9mm mag to use.

I think it’s always going to be a 4” or just under barrel without a bushing. That seems to be the recipe a lot of people are having success with when they make a 9mm 1911 that works. CSW’s Springers are an example, as are Wilson’s X9s and the EDC9 they’re based on, the Ed Brown EVO series, some Nighthawks, some Dan Wessons, and probably some others I’m forgetting.

[TOTS]

This code has been cracked over a decade ago. If there’s a better magazine than the Mecgar 18 rnd replacement for the M9, I haven’t seen it. I’ve always wondered why they wouldn’t make a 2011 around it.

ETA: this is the same body for many reliable mags such as sig 226,228/9 and others.

[TGS]

I like the idea of using another gun's mag so as to not create an additional one-off, expensive, proprietary mag on the market....

...but the Shield 15 mag? Is there even a strong consensus on whether those are good to go, yet? I thought they were still in the play-toy category of things...might work well, but might not, sort of deal. Am I wrong on that?

[Jim Watson]

I was playing with a 2011 and the dedicated 9mm magazines on hand; Glock, Sig, CZ.

The 9mm magazines have a more abrupt taper to center feed than 2011 and stop with that taper against the side rails of the steel 2011 frame. I assume you could bevel that out without weakening the receiver seriously.
You could 3d print a plastic butt section with the appropriate magazine well. Or just cement shims into a standard one for prototyping.

Of course if you have a factory with some spare cycles, you can gin up something from scratch.

I understand the Wilson uses Walther tubes with their floor plate and catch notch location.

[MistWolf]

Glock 19 mags, as good as they are, are FAT.

Yes. Yes, they are and there are more reliable mags out there, such as


...the Mecgar 18 rnd replacement for the M9, I haven’t seen it. I’ve always wondered why they wouldn’t make a 2011 around it.

ETA: this is the same body for many reliable mags such as sig 226,228/9 and others.

...and the PPQ/PDP. TOTS is right. The modern MecGar M9 mags are one to the most reliable double stack, single feed 9mm mags out there. That's why


...Wilson uses Walther tubes

But Wilson uses their own catch location.

The best part? This family of mags are direct descendants of the original, the High Power magazine.

The AF1911-S15 is an interesting handgun. I like metal framed handguns, but not when the grips are part of the frame.

[Jim Watson]

But Wilson uses their own catch location.

Which I said.


The best part? This family of mags are direct descendants of the original, the High Power magazine.


Fortunately distant descendants. Same double stack squeezed down into center feed, but later makes are usually of thicker, stronger steel.

Which leads me to wonder why Mecgar does not make a real 2011 magazine. They could decisively undersell the market probably with better quality.

The plastic Glock magazine is wide by 9mm standards, but it is still narrower than a 2011 which is built to take staggered .45 magazines.

[spyderco monkey]

I like the idea of using another gun's mag so as to not create an additional one-off, expensive, proprietary mag on the market....

...but the Shield 15 mag? Is there even a strong consensus on whether those are good to go, yet? I thought they were still in the play-toy category of things...might work well, but might not, sort of deal. Am I wrong on that?

One of the bigger reveals from SHOT 2022 this year, that seems to have gone largely unoticed, is PSA's Micro Dagger, which is essentially a better G43X with factory 15rd metal/polymer mags that are compatible with the G43X/48. And these will be made by PSA.

So the AFS15 should in theory be able to use Shield Mags, PSA mags, and factory G48 10rd mags.

[MistWolf]

Which I said.

You did. I misunderstood




Fortunately distant descendants. Same double stack squeezed down into center feed, but later makes are usually of thicker, stronger steel.

Which leads me to wonder why Mecgar does not make a real 2011 magazine. They could decisively undersell the market probably with better quality.

The plastic Glock magazine is wide by 9mm standards, but it is still narrower than a 2011 which is built to take staggered .45 magazines.

I read somewhere that Stacatto had another company re-work their mags for improved reliability & control. I think the company was MecGar

[P226SAOFan]

So if the current 2011 design needs slim mags towards the feed lips because of the frame geometry, would tweaking the frame to fit different mags mess with other part compatibility like triggers and stuff? There’s gotta be a reason this hasn’t been changed yet.

[Elwin]

So if the current 2011 design needs slim mags towards the feed lips because of the frame geometry, would tweaking the frame to fit different mags mess with other part compatibility like triggers and stuff? There’s gotta be a reason this hasn’t been changed yet.

If you’re asking why we don’t have 2011 frames that take non-2011 mags, yes, that would involve at least a new trigger in addition to the new frame. Maybe a new mag catch and new ignition parts to match a new trigger bow.

I think the bigger issue is designing that new frame from the ground up being a huge investment, and if you’re doing that you do what Wilson, Dan Wesson, and Alpha Foxtrot did and design a totally new thing that ditches all the undesirable traits of a 2011.

[Raven5]

I don't think that the 2011 has undesirable traits. The 2011 mag is also just fine in the new iteration. Just not common in the market so very expensive mags.

And for the record, Beretta doublestack mags are no better than most other doublestack mags from Sig, CZ, Steyer, S&W, Walther, etc. etc. You can only do so much with the design from doublestack to single feed and those have been done for decades now. STI mags have a different taper than the Para design which was intended to not be as abrupt and improve reliability. (That's also why for the same length they have slightly different capacity, STI being less).

Wilson is a big 92 fan so that's the mag used. Could easily have been something else. Not saying a bad choice at all, just the facts.

Also, some STI/SVI triggers fit Para frames so it's the trigger bow opening width that matters. Apparently some are wide enough for the Para design, which Rock Island Armory uses so some of those triggers can be used in RIA pistols. Keep in mind, the original Para was designed as a true doublestack for .45 ACP not a doublestack for 9mm or 40S&W/10mm so it's about as wide as it gets.

Also if memory serves, Dan Wesson used a Caspian doublestack frame and those were designed to use the Witness/Tanfoglio mags. I'd have to double check that though.

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[Elwin]

I don't think that the 2011 has undesirable traits. The 2011 mag is also just fine in the new iteration. Just not common in the market so very expensive mags.

And for the record, Beretta doublestack mags are no better than most other doublestack mags from Sig, CZ, Steyer, S&W, Walther, etc. etc.

It depends on your use case. It's unnecessarily bulky for its size and capacity, so that's a negative for concealment. Some consider the grip safety a negative, especially on the thicker grip. The two piece frame has pluses and minuses.

A lot of other company's mags, including some of Walther's and Sig's, are Beretta mags (with changes to overall length and mag catch cut). And as mentioned upthread, that mag is not only inherently a good design, but it's benefitted from ongoing improvement from a dozen different companies.

[TOTS]

And for the record, Beretta doublestack mags are no better than most other doublestack mags from Sig, CZ, Steyer, S&W, Walther, etc. etc. You can only do so much with the design from doublestack to single feed and those have been done for decades now. STI mags have a different taper than the Para design which was intended to not be as abrupt and improve reliability. (That's also why for the same length they have slightly different capacity, STI being less).

Wilson is a big 92 fan so that's the mag used. Could easily have been something else. Not saying a bad choice at all, just the facts.

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Hmm… kinda my point. Beretta mags are absolutely not better…since they are the same tubes. So much so that I have eight that, with a properly placed cut, I use my M9 mags reliably in my M9, P229, and M&P 2.0C. Mecgar has done pretty well with the design over the decades, reliably getting 18-20 to work with redesigned followers and baseplates. My point was why reinvent the wheel when redesigning from .45 to 9 when a great (and inexpensive) mousetrap was already on the shelf? I’m assuming smarter engineers than me thought about it and there’s a reason but…

And Wilson used Walther mags.

[Jim Watson]

The Tripp McCormick 2011 is a .45 design, too. Rated 12 rounds, but I have to jump on the Uplula to get 11.
Look at the flutes in the smaller caliber magazines.

The Caspian was designed as a 20 shot .38.
Reported to hold ten .45s if you just must.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

The Caspian was designed as a 20 shot .38.
Reported to hold ten .45s if you just must.

Caspian designed their high cap frame around large frame tanfoglio mags...

[Jim Watson]

OK but that amounted to 20 .38s in the IPSC "flush magazine" era.
They used to sell magazines. Maybe they were TZ tubes with distinctive Caspian basepads.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

OK but that amounted to 20 .38s in the IPSC "flush magazine" era.
They used to sell magazines. Maybe they were TZ tubes with distinctive Caspian basepads.

Not sure who made their tubes (first generation) , they used mecgar tubes on the second generation IRC. The bigger point is they used tanfoglio as the pattern. Slight modifications had to be made to mag catch area to use tanfoglio mags.

Much like the preceding pages talk of M9 and Walther tubes in other pattern guns...

[Jim Watson]

I have read of cutting TZ magazines for the Caspian catch
Strangely, MBX lumps them together
"MBX tube is designed to work with CaspianTangfolio grips and mag catch height."

[Bucky]

And for the record, Beretta doublestack mags are no better than most other doublestack mags from Sig, CZ, Steyer, S&W, Walther, etc. etc. You can only do so much with the design from doublestack to single feed and those have been done for decades now. STI mags have a different taper than the Para design which was intended to not be as abrupt and improve reliability. (That's also why for the same length they have slightly different capacity, STI being less).

Wilson is a big 92 fan so that's the mag used. Could easily have been something else. Not saying a bad choice at all, just the facts.


Are you referring to the EDC X9? If so, that’s not a Beretta magazine. I believe it’s a modified Walther.

[Bucky]

Not sure who made their tubes (first generation) , they used mecgar tubes on the second generation IRC. The bigger point is they used tanfoglio as the pattern. Slight modifications had to be made to mag catch area to use tanfoglio mags.

Much like the preceding pages talk of M9 and Walther tubes in other pattern guns...

The original Caspian mags were made in house according to Caspian. They even spoke about how they went on 24 hour shifts just before the AWB took effect.

Later magazines were made by ProMag, and as you can imagine not all that great. I was shooting rimless, but a buddy shot the tradition .38 super and the rim made an indentation (more of an out-dentation) down one side of the magazine. I shot Caspians in open and limited. I shot mostly the original mags in open, even had a 27 round weld job, save for one 29 round ProMag I’d use as needed. In the .40, a used the ProMags exclusively because I preferred 20 in the magazine vs. 16. Feed lips needed to be reshaped on occasion.

[Polecat]

I would like to see what either Staccato or Bul could do in the way of a CSX-ish micro 2011.

[TiroFijo]

Nice idea to use the Shield mags... that way at least you can salvage something for your G43X/G48 after you get tired of fooling around with this ;)

[Raven5]

Are you referring to the EDC X9? If so, thatÂ’s not a Beretta magazine. I believe itÂ’s a modified Walther.

You are correct in that Wilson even stated that they used Walther tubes as a base because they were also in the area/region with their factory. Not sure the details or what that means, but Wilson said it.

For the record however, Walther tubes beginning way back were copies of Beretta tubes because they worked. In fairness, there isn't a lot different you can do with a 9mm tube as most will have similar dimensions. Feed lips, mag cutout, and where the stop is cut is mostly all that varies. From there it's all about length, plate, etc. to match the gun.

I went down that rabbit hole years ago with a P99. P88 mags would kind of work but it was about length and a few other details. P88 mags were based on Beretta mags, plain and simple. Moving past the P99, the PPQ was designed to take P99 mags. There's some generational differences in some of them with feed lips, ramp location, and some other stuff I can't remember but again, essentially the same tube. I'm sure Wilson is well aware of this and having many Beretta mags on hand I'm sure started the whole thing.

The P226 and some others use the basic tube as well with the previously mentioned possible differences. Like I said, there isn't much you can do different with a 9mm tube and apparently Beretta got it correct. Now, I've also been told the tube is the same or can be made to work in a Hi-Power but I can't verify that at all. If that's the case, then Beretta copied a tube that started life in the 1920's/30's. :) As I said, the (Beretta) design is no better than from Sig, Walther, et al. It's essentially the same design tube anyway. However, Beretta mags are extremely plentiful due to popularity of the 92 platform for so long, and cheaper because of this. Flood the market and that's the result.

To get back on topic, I see why they used the Shield tube/mag design but I personally wish they would have used something else. If you have a new offering that has a limited audience to begin with at least entice them. Choosing a plentiful Glock platform is a good choice, choosing the G43X/G48 whose draw is a 3rd party magazine not so much.

[MattyD380]

My P99 will feed rounds from a Beretta 92 mag if I hold it in place. It won’t lock in and sticks out the bottom.

8361883619

[MattyD380]

I found some of their AF1911 government .45s on sale for well under a grand:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/922584122

And, for that price, they supposedly have:

-Forged frame, slide and barrel. 416, I believe (not that I know why, or if, 416 is better than other numbers).
-Hand lapped/fitted slide and frame
-A “super match” barrel—so I guess they’re accurate.
-melonite finish

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, but, it seems like a very high-quality gun for the money. Still curious about the S15, but, if their other products are any indication… could be some good shit.

[TOTS]

My P99 will feed rounds from a Beretta 92 mag if I hold it in place. It won’t lock in and sticks out the bottom.


84155
84156
Take a cutoff wheel or dremel and cut a new notch where the factory mags have them. I have 10 that I use as range mags for my M9, P226, P229, and M&P 2.0 Compact. Feeds reliably in all platforms with just the Sig mag release cutout added but won’t lock the slide back unless you change out the follower. Literally been doing this for years; that’s why I made my comment about the Beretta mags having such a good design.

[JCN]

Are you referring to the EDC X9? If so, that’s not a Beretta magazine. I believe it’s a modified Walther.

As an aside I can confirm that TTI Walther basepads work with EDC X9 magazines with just a slight bit of grinding for clearance at the rear.

84158

[MattyD380]

I wish I could get plain metal Beretta 92 baseplates on my P99 mags. I've tried, but they don't fit. I hate the flared-out sides of the P99's plastic mag bases. They kinda get in the way, for me. I actually ground off the sides, on one of mine. I also wanna get another backstrap and grind down the hump. I love the P99, but the ergos are kinda... weird. Nevertheless, it shoots great. And it's stoopid lightweight.

[MattyD380]

84155
84156
Take a cutoff wheel or dremel and cut a new notch where the factory mags have them. I have 10 that I use as range mags for my M9, P226, P229, and M&P 2.0 Compact. Feeds reliably in all platforms with just the Sig mag release cutout added but won’t lock the slide back unless you change out the follower. Literally been doing this for years; that’s why I made my comment about the Beretta mags having such a good design.

That's interesting. I had read that they used the 92 mags as a basis for the P88 mags. Which, apparently, then served as the basis for the P99 mags.

Honestly, I'm like a neanderthal with a Dremel. I'm not sure I'd be qualified for something that needed to be precise/functional.

Edit: I've heard Neanderthals were actually very intelligent, with excellent fine motor skills. So... that analogy might be misplaced. Nevertheless, I still suck with a Dremel.

[G19Fan]

Got one of these for amusement and testing

Shot a buddies and it took macro mags along with s15/g43x and g48

Hoping mine does too

[Bucky]

Got one of these for amusement and testing

Shot a buddies and it took macro mags along with s15/g43x and g48

Hoping mine does too

Pics and range report when able, please.

[G19Fan]

Pics and range report when able, please.

Def as soon as it is in next week or so

[G19Fan]

Pics and range report when able, please.

Fits and feeds s15 and macro mags

Macro mags lock up

[G19Fan]

Fit is 90% of a stacatto (mine and friend's)

Finish is comparable at a glance

Love the grip size.

Safety works well

[Tokarev]

AF is supposed to have a full-size 2011 on the way. Will it run on G17 mags?

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[G19Fan]

AF is supposed to have a full-size 2011 on the way. Will it run on G17 mags?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Not sure on that answer

[Nephrology]

I'm intrigued

[G19Fan]

Edit for clarification:

I sold my stacatto a few months ago. Fit on my former stacatto vs the alpha foxtrot is going by memory

[G19Fan]

Recoil is very mild

Accuracy was good. Trigger feels good but I am not a trigger snob. A stock p365 curved trigger is my ideal trigger. G19 with a minus connector is 2nd.

Ran 250 rounds through it today.

50 rounds with s15 mags no issues. 200 rounds with p365 macro mags. No issues

30 rounds at 30 yards.

Passed 10-8 extractor test

[G19Fan]

Also ran 20 rounds of:

124 hst
147 ranger t
124 hydra shik
114 gold dot

[WobblyPossum]

Other than the Staccato CS and new C, this is the first 2011-style pistol that’s really interested me. I’m digging the idea of a gun designed around a 9mm specific magazine. I’m still a little puzzled by the choice to use the Shield Arms magazine instead of a magazine designed by a more experienced manufacturer.

[G19Fan]

Other than the Staccato CS and new C, this is the first 2011-style pistol that’s really interested me. I’m digging the idea of a gun designed around a 9mm specific magazine. I’m still a little puzzled by the choice to use the Shield Arms magazine instead of a magazine designed by a more experienced manufacturer.

Normal glock mags run fine

[G19Fan]

Anothet 150 rounds through the gun in moving and shooting training no issues with p365 macro mag

Some picks with foxtrot alpha and a p365xl macro (next to, on top of a p365xl and underneath a p365xl)

I love the front strap checkering