Why doesn’t HK make low bore axis handguns like the P7 anymore?

[hk45]

All of their “new” models are hideously clunky and top heavy. Any idea why they don’t return to a design that made them famous?

[jeep45238]

All of their “new” models are hideously clunky and top heavy. Any idea why they don’t return to a design that made them famous?

Because the striker guns they're selling now DO have a lower bore axis than hammer fired models of the past.


If you want a modern P7 that doesn't burn your hands when you run the gun, you'll need to get an Alien Luago.

[hk45]

Because the striker guns they're selling now DO have a lower bore axis than hammer fired models of the past.


If you want a modern P7 that doesn't burn your hands when you run the gun, you'll need to get an Alien Luago.

True. But still considerably a higher axis than Glock or the CZ P10. I’d love an Luago but unfortunately I would have to take out a second mortgage to afford.

[HCM]

All of their “new” models are hideously clunky and top heavy. Any idea why they don’t return to a design that made them famous?

Europeans engineers generally don’t shoot and institutional buyers (whom euro gun companies consider their “real” customers) don’t care.

Why don’t they care? Because the significance of “low bore axis” is debatable at best. I can assure you those hideous clunky top-heavy pistols work just fine for shooting people.

The designs that made HK famous were the G3 and the MP5…..

Dry practice more or pick a platform that’s easier to shoot.

[jeep45238]

Europeans engineers generally don’t shoot and institutional buyers (whom euro gun companies consider their “real” customers) don’t care.

Why don’t they care? Because the significance of “low bore axis” is debatable at best. I can assure you those hideous clunky top-heavy pistols work just fine for shooting people.

The designs that made HK famous were the G3 and the MP5…..

Dry practice more or pick a platform that’s easier to shoot.

Winner winner chicken dinner. Additionally, ergonomics matters more than bore axis.

[hk45]

I probably came across overly critical in my description of HK’s modern firearms. I love the HK45 but can’t figure out the VP9. It feels, at least to me, to be such an odd design compared with my G19.5. I just wished they could release an update to the P7.

[jeep45238]

I probably came across overly critical in my description of HK’s modern firearms. I love the HK45 but can’t figure out the VP9. It feels, at least to me, to be such an odd design compared with my G19.5. I just wished they could release an update to the P7.

The PDP and VP9 are more likely bed fellows than the G19 - the main difference I've found shooting them is where the sear breaks in the trigger travel, with Walther being more towards the rear, meaning less over travel.

[HCM]

Winner winner chicken dinner. Additionally, ergonomics matters more than bore axis.

I had a P7 I made for years, it had a nice trigger pole was one of the first guns to come out of the box with good sites but the fact it was a steel frame 9 mm with a light trigger was a lot more significant than the height of the bore access

[Polecat]

CZs are ergonomic and with fairly low bore axis! HK could do it if they the inclination. Only gripe with HK is slowly they bring out new stuff, and how they continue some stodgy old designs all of which are very similar. I think USp came out in like 1992!

[hk45]

CZs are ergonomic and with fairly low bore axis! HK could do it if they the inclination. Only gripe with HK is slowly they bring out new stuff, and how they continue some stodgy old designs all of which are very similar. I think USp came out in like 1992!

Exactly. I’m not sure why HK didn’t do this with the VP9. I know people love them, but I find the muzzle flip is much less controllable than my glocks or CZ’s. Not that this is relevant to the discussion but I also don’t understand why the VP9 feels so cheap compared with their legacy firearms like the HK45. Even the CZ feels better put together. Sorry, just venting. I know HK has stellar engineers but it just doesn’t seem like they are used to their potential.

[Joe Mac]

For many years I used a G23 as my 24-hour on/off duty pistol, and it never occurred to me that the .40 had significant recoil until I fired a co-worker's USP compact in .40. After 3-4 shots I stopped and stared at the gun quizzically, baffled by the muzzle flip.

So I do think bore axis is a consideration, but I notice the difference quite a bit less in 9mm.

[HCM]

Exactly. I’m not sure why HK didn’t do this with the VP9. I know people love them, but I find the muzzle flip is much less controllable than my glocks or CZ’s. Not that this is relevant to the discussion but I also don’t understand why the VP9 feels so cheap compared with their legacy firearms like the HK45. Even the CZ feels better put together. Sorry, just venting. I know HK has stellar engineers but it just doesn’t seem like they are used to their potential.

The HK45 is now a “legacy” firearm ?

HK makes durable, reliable and mechanically accurate guns but there is no free lunch.

Until the VP9, HK triggers polymer pistol were inferior to those of their competitors And the double recall spring system on the USP while it does mitigate recoil as intended, it makes fast splits difficult. The Spider-Man grip of the HK 45, P 30 etc. also makes the guns harder to track when firing multiple shots. They are a perfect example of what feels good in the hand versus flat sided pistols like Glocks and 1911s that perform well at speed. This is why Sigg with the assistance of Bruce gray developed the flight sided X grip for the P320 And why you almost never see serious USPSA or ID PA shooters running a P3 20 with the original/M 17 type grip.

While I appreciate the attempt at modularity the HK 45 would have benefited greatly by retaining the original grip design as found on the HK45C.

I do agree that the VP9 Seems to have more felt recoil than it’s competitors.

There’s a saying that uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason.

There’s a reason you see fewer and fewer HK pistols in the holsters of institutional users in the US. The biggest institutional user was US INS/US border patrol which eventually morphed into US Cbp/USBP. The rationale for adopting the HKUSP compact and later the P 2000 was durability. They were looking for a gun with a 10,000 round service life using what amounted to a plus P load in 40 Cal. The wisdom of trying to chase 357 Magnum ballistics in a compact polymer frame semi-auto pistol aside, the guns did prove durable and reliable but were very unpopular due to poor trigger poles and being difficult to shoot well.

HK fan boys may be shocked and dismayed to hear it , but the HKP 2000 LEM 40 was generally loathed by most people who had to carry them. The USPC was a bit more popular and those who had them went to great lengths to hold onto them until the recent transition to Glock 9mms.

[Bergeron]

I could not agree more about the flat-sided grips.

I got into centerfire pistols with a USP in 9mm, and except for the hoops to jump through to get a dot placed onto that slide and the need for a rail-mount adapter for light usage, the design has very little to apologize for. The trigger is not as good as other guns, but that didn't matter much to me back when that USP was my only pistol. I ended up breaking the original firing pin with dry fire. Going through that got rid of my low-left habit better than a trigger job would have.

It didn't feel particularly "flippy" compared to other guns of similar weight in similar chamberings. I found that .45 and 10mm 1911s needed much more attention to technique for sight tracking and muzzle flip reduction than did the 9mm USP. I've never been fond of the bore axis argument, even though I'm now living life with Glocks.

[HCM]

I could not agree more about the flat-sided grips.

I got into centerfire pistols with a USP in 9mm, and except for the hoops to jump through to get a dot placed onto that slide and the need for a rail-mount adapter for light usage, the design has very little to apologize for. The trigger is not as good as other guns, but that didn't matter much to me back when that USP was my only pistol. I ended up breaking the original firing pin with dry fire. Going through that got rid of my low-left habit better than a trigger job would have.

It didn't feel particularly "flippy" compared to other guns of similar weight in similar chamberings. I found that .45 and 10mm 1911s needed much more attention to technique for sight tracking and muzzle flip reduction than did the 9mm USP. I've never been fond of the bore axis argument, even though I'm now living life with Glocks.

The double recoil spring of the USP full size guns is designed to mitigate recoil. The good news is it works as designed. The bad news is it does so at the expense of the cycling speed which makes fast splits....difficult. It's also likely why the USP 45s are capable of handling 45 Super without modification.

[JAD]

Man, the P7 is absolutely the push dagger of pistols.

[MattyD380]

I actually thought the trigger on the USP 45 compact I had was fine. The DA was reasonably smooth and not too heavy. Much better than the HK45C, which was just terrible in DA. I think my Polish P64 was about the only gun that had a worse DA pull (and that’s only because you literally couldn’t pull it). Also had a P2000sk in LEM. I was fairly new to shooting when I had that gun… but I quickly sold it when I discovered the P239. Just a much better shooter for me. And I don’t think bore axis had much to do with it… Sigs don’t exactly have low bore axes either.

I love the over-engineered “essence” of HK pistols. The steel, the fit and finish, and the build is fantastic. I’ve just found that I don’t shoot them as well as Sigs, berettas or other makes. I actually hated the grip on the USPc 45. Thin and deep. I found it hard to hold onto. Again, compared to the Sig P245… shootability was night and day. For me anyway.

[JHC]

The double recoil spring of the USP full size guns is designed to mitigate recoil. The good news is it works as designed. The bad news is it does so at the expense of the cycling speed which makes fast splits....difficult. It's also likely why the USP 45s are capable of handling 45 Super without modification.

How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).

[Hambo]

"Why doesn't HK?" Because HK. Because they're German. Because they know what you need better than you do. Because they don't care what you want. Because they're in business to make money, and they're making money.

[Evil_Ed]

How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).

The USP series of guns uses a different recoil spring assembly (dual spring, two different plungers, each one acts independently of the other) than the HK45/P30 series of guns. The HK45/P30 uses a recoil spring assembly more like the USP Compacts; one spring and a weight/buffer.

The USP series has a weird pogo effect that you can feel when the slide bottoms out...it does mitigate "recoil" pretty well for what it is, but there's a weird delay in both the slide bottoming out, and then starting to close that feels unnatural compared to other guns with "normal" recoil spring assemblies. I don't know if anyone's actually put it on a timer and high speed film but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it adds a 10th or so to the whole process..

FWIW, I sold my USPs in 9 and 40 not because of that, but because the grip size and ergonomics were just wrong for me. I couldn't get through more than 5 rounds in 9 or 40 before I locked the slide open due to the massive slide release coming in contact with my support hand, and the grip was small enough so that I couldn't really get a great grip on it regardless with my off hand. I could either radically change my grip and hold the gun much lower, or sell the guns...so I sold them. The P30 with large grip panels all around doesn't have this issue with me. It also helps that the P30's slide release lever is practically tiny compared to the USP...and I can swap it out with the P30S levers which are even shorter. I can spend all day on a P30 and never accidentally lock the slide open...a welcome change of pace. I love the USP in nearly every way, it just does not fit. Sad face.

[HCM]

How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).

The HK45 is irrelevant as doesn’t have that RSA system only the full size USPs in 9/40/45.

Bad enough you don’t see anyone serious running USPs in USPSA or IDPA.

The USP was the first gun designed from scratch for .40. Some would say they over engineered that RSA but subsequent HK 40s without it (USPC, P2000, and particularly the P30) all have noticeably more felt recoil than competing designs from SIG, Glock, etc.

The USP Full size RSA does exactly what it was designed to do. While split times suffer, there is a reason the USP 45 series are the only guns I’m aware of which can handle .45 Super without modifications. There is no free lunch.

I had a P7M8 for over a decade. The more I progressed as a shooter the more the P7 lost it’s luster. It was a great choice in 1981 but 1991 there were many better options.

The HK pistols from the USP forward are like tanks, Russian tanks, with all the positive and negative qualities inherent in that description.

[Bucky]

Because the striker guns they're selling now DO have a lower bore axis than hammer fired models of the past.

I have a P30L and VP9. Both appear to have roughly the same bore axis, visually, I didn’t measure it. The P30L has noticeably less felt recoil to me than the VP9, but YMMV.

[GJM]

How difficult; as in how bad are the splits? Is this percieved to be a functional problem in the context of pistol fighting or is this more of a problem for the "Instagram hero" video business? Considering TLG's work with the HK45 I guess mostly the latter or just the mass market?

My experience with HK was a Euro safety P7 I shot a fair bit in the early 90's and a USP 9mm I got used for a good price, just curious about the gun. Parted with both but no real complaint with the USP other than riding the thumb safety conflicted with my 1911 style (which was my problem).

A few different thoughts — first on the topic of splits and then on the utility of the USP.

When I walk around at the range, when waiting for a bay to open up, I get plenty of opportunity to observe shooters of different ability levels. My unscientific observation is the average trigger puller shoots .25 splits, and the difference is in what they hit. I was discussing this with Darryl lately, and he agreed, but added that in a shooting those splits speed up. What I take away from that is that a bad guy is likely shooting at me with .20-25 splits. I do understand that accurate shots are the name of the game, but I would like to be able to shoot splits that are more accurate and faster than a bad guy. For me, that means guns that are reliable, accurate and easy to shoot quickly are desirable.

I still have many USP full size pistols, in 9, 40 and 45. The full size 45 is an amazing pistol, in terms of reliability, durability, accuracy and the ability to launch a wide range of ammo with its OEM recoil system. The match hybrid LEM trigger is easily the best HK hammer gun trigger. The metal magazines are awesome, the trigger guard is large enough to use gloves, and but for difficulty mounting an optic, it would still be my number one field pistol.

While I still think the FS 45 is very useful, I think the ship has sailed on the 9/40 models, except as sub caliber trainers for the 45. The plastic magazines aren’t in the same league with the metal 45 mags, the pogo-ing seems more pronounced shooting at 9mm speed, they are capacity limited compared to alternatives, and there is still the optic problem. I have also observed some reliability problems in the FS 40 with flat point ammo. I recognize Wright Armory might have an optics solution but it is a one off installation and costs nearly as much as the pistol. The USP was designed thirty years ago, and that shows. Of course the Glock was designed forty years ago, which goes to the brilliance of that design.

[Archer1440]

I have a P30L and VP9. Both appear to have roughly the same bore axis, visually, I didn’t measure it. The P30L has noticeably less felt recoil to me than the VP9, but YMMV.

If we measure bore axis as distance from trigger pivot point to top of hood, yes the P30L and VP9 are practically identical. However the VP9 does allow one to get their hand higher into the pistol as the rear pivot point is both higher and deeper.

The felt recoil of the P30L is certainly different, due to the combination of the weighted buffer in the RCA as well as the damping effect of the hammer during cycling. I can shoot either one at about the same splits, but overall the VP9 is certainly faster for me than the P30L on things like “Smoke & Hope” in SCCA.

[jeep45238]

I have a P30L and VP9. Both appear to have roughly the same bore axis, visually, I didn’t measure it. The P30L has noticeably less felt recoil to me than the VP9, but YMMV.

it's minimal, but it's there. You'll have to stack the VP9 over the P30 to see the hand getting further in under the slide, ur use handgunhero to visually overlay them.

[TCinVA]

Bore axis is a relevant concern to a very, very tiny minority of shooters. I'll quote myself from a few years ago:




You know, the bore axis thing annoys the living piss out of me. I can't seem to go anywhere without hearing some dude blather on and on about it and insist that he's "faster" with a low bore axis pistol as opposed to a high bore axis pistol. I propose a new universal internet forum law [NOTE: This is humor, not a real rule for PF.com] when discussing bore axis:

Before you can use the term "bore axis" in an argument about why X handgun is better than Y, you must have a record of your performance on a number of standardized drills performed over at least a two year period using a high and low bore axis handgun so you can tally a useful average of your performance with both weapons that is presented to the reader so that he/she can decide whether or not that .02 of a second difference you might squeak out with such an effort really matters in their consideration.

...and to save time, Robb Leatham and Ernie Langdon have both won USPSA production titles using handguns with a higher bore axis...and most limited and open class shooters seem to prefer handguns that have a higher bore axis, especially if they come with a lot of bullets and very light triggers. So it seems that even amongst the most elite ranks of handgunning where you may actually be able to find people with sufficient skill that every other possible variable impacting performance can be eliminated, nobody really gives bore axis much thought. I mean, really...when was the last time some of you competition shooters were on the range and heard the grand masters talking about bore axis? When was the last time somebody showed up to a clinic with Robb Leatham and was told "What you need is a pistol with a lower bore axis!"

The amount of electronic ink spilled on the internet about the topic is inversely proportional to the practical difference it makes in the results that Mr. Average Pistol Buyer will get out of a purchase...which at this point must mean that if it was quantified on a pie chart it would share the same sized slice as the number of people out of 1,000 who would celebrate a half billion dollar lotto win by mutilating their own genitals with a grapefruit spoon. In my opinion, this is yet another example of whatever Sith master Glock hired in their marketing department early on telling the gun world that these aren't the droids they're looking for.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1531-Low-Bore-Axis-how-important-is-it

I'll note that some of the best times Todd ever put up on the FAST were with the H&K P30...a gun with a higher bore axis than other pistols he used. I shot the HK45 Todd was testing back to back with my 1st gen M&P in 9mm at one of Todd's classes and on wide-open targets at 5 yards the splits were .17 for the M&P and .19 for the HK45. It felt like night and day, but the objective measurement told a different tale. And that was on a gun I'd spent 20,000+ rounds on and a gun I'd just been shooting that day and the best I can pin down is a .02/second difference between them.

Todd himself weighed in on this a little bit later in that thread

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1531-Low-Bore-Axis-how-important-is-it&p=24477&viewfull=1#post24477

I think a lot of people are getting confused about what exactly is happening.

Some pistols "track high". By that I mean that some pistols when fired do not return to the same point they left as readily as other pistols. In other words, I shoot, the pistol moves in recoil, and the sight settles above my prior point of aim somewhat requiring me to drag the gun back down to the prior point of aim. All pistols will do this when you are using a sub-optimal grip. This is only really noticeable if you are trying to shoot a very small target at high speed. I do a fair bit of practice and instruction on very small targets (3" or less) so I notice it a fair bit.

A pistol like the Gen5 Glock 17 "tracks flat" in that even if my grip isn't 100% right, it still tends to drop back closer to the spot it left than some other designs. My Gen3 Glock 17 does not do this. Felt recoil (this is subjective) in the Gen5 gun is also significantly less than the Gen3 guns and, frankly, many other 9mm pistols out there. I'd imagine the dual recoil spring setup in the Gen5 contributes significantly to this effect. I found the 1st gen M&P friendlier in this regard than the 3rd Gen Glock pistols in 9mm.

With the right grip on the gun, all guns will track flatter. But that said, some pistols in my hands tend to "track high" no matter what I do on the grip...but it's not a function of bore axis as much as it is a combination of factors including how the gun fits my hand, the shape of the grip, how my support hand gets on the gun, etc.

I find the Beretta 92 "tracks high" for me no matter what I do...and it wasn't something I really noticed until I got a lot better as a shooter and a coach. Suddenly my tendency to shoot a bit high made sense. I always thought it was because I was looking over the sights, but that's not the case. Even with a hard focus on the sights I was seeing the gun settle with the front sight elevated in or sometimes completely out of the notch and at full speed I was completing the short trigger press in SA mode with the front sight high. It's only noticeable when I'm on the edge of shooting as fast as I can. (Sub 1/4 second splits) I also notice it when trying to shoot a B8 at 25, but the single action trigger on the 92 makes up for that sin and I'm actually more accurate at that distance shooting at a hurried pace just because of how much more forgiving the Langdon-ized 92's SA trigger is of shooter error.

The P30 has a similar bore axis but "tracks flat", meaning it doesn't do that. I'd wager a significant contributor to that is the indentation at the bottom of a P30's grip allows me to get more pinky engagement naturally than the Beretta 92's bigger grip.

Bore axis is not the primary driver of how a gun "tracks" in your hands. Mostly it's your grip on the gun. I find most people are gripping from their forearms forward trying to control the gun mainly with their forearm muscles. Worse, they are usually doing it with their arms fully extended and their elbows locked. Then they complain about "bore axis" because they've essentially given the handgun a fucking arm bar where the gun has more leverage on them than they do on the gun. But it must be "bore axis" to blame. Interestingly enough, I'm convinced that's one of the reasons why people are so eager to put compensators on their pistols nowdays. The dot is making them aware that the gun is "tracking high" for them and the extra weight/gas pressure from a comp helps drive the gun back down a bit. And that's happening on a Glock so it's not "bore axis."

Once we get your grip sorted out, how the gun interacts with your hand is next on the list. (Something revolver shooters of old understood, hence the rarity of factory stocks on old S&W revolver. People ditched them because they sucked) Given the variances in physiology out there, some people will find that some guns work better for them than others if they are shooting at the edge of their performance envelope. This will be critical for competition shooters...even though many of them shoot guns with a higher bore axis like 2011 guns...but in practical self defense it's almost completely irrelevant.

There are so many confounding variables involved in shooting a pistol at max speed that are not well understood, so people focus on "bore axis" like it means something. If it did, there would be a measurable difference between Rob Leatham's max speed splits with an XD and Bob Vogel's Gen3 G34...but that doesn't seem to be the case. Even if we could identify a difference between those two attributable solely to the bore axis of of the guns they are using the difference would be so slight as to be irrelevant to anyone other than them.

It's kind of like how a world champion formula 1 driver can tell the differences in the way a specific wing setup or tire compound is performing for them in the car in real time where even a skilled pro-solo driver would be crashed into something and on fire because driving a downforce car is a completely different world.

As to the original question, the P7 pistol's main virtues are not its bore axis. In fact, that's a drawback because it gives people with larger hands wicked slide bite as a price for the nice trigger. And the fact that it heats up like a soldering iron in small round counts doesn't help it either.

They're ridiculously sexy guns and were I stupidly rich I'd own a whole brace of them. They'd cut and burn the shit out of me if I ever tried to use them seriously, but that wouldn't stop me from posting sexy pics of them on instagram. Meanwhile I'd be carrying something else with a higher bore axis because it works better as a bullet launcher in my hands.

[Tuefelhunden]

As someone heavily invested in hammer fired HK handguns I'm biased. Are they perfect? No. But they are super durable, reliable and accurate. I think contrary to popular opinion they do listen to the civilian market albeit slowly. But is that a bad thing? I appreciate the fact they don't vomit out a new unproven design every 6 to 12 months. USP may be long in the tooth but I can buy one built between the 90's all the way up to present and the quality is consistent. That is rare. I'm finding that to be the same with other HK models as well. I love that.

The VP was in response to public demand and is a good pistol. I don't know if they could have given the VP line up a lower bore axis or not but I suspect they did not on purpose. The VP is very similar to the P30, P2000's etc. sharing mags, similar feel, sizes, profile, holsters, etc.

I used to get hung up on bore axis and at speed head to head maybe it does make a difference. But for my needs it is of less concern than other factors. Sig P226 has probably the highest of them all and seems to have had a pretty good run in serious situations.

Side bar, I think the P2000 in .40 the recoil is harsh and my USP 40 is by far my best shooter. I carry a P2000 9mm. YMMV

[GJM]

Question -- what is the single most popular pistol in the USPSA carry optics division? Answer -- the one with the highest bore axis.

[ralph]

"Why doesn't HK?" Because HK. Because they're German. Because they know what you need better than you do. Because they don't care what you want. Because they're in business to make money, and they're making money.

I think that your last sentence sums it up. My understanding is that the VP9 literally pulled HK’s bacon out of the fire, I had two at one time, they’re ok pistols, but these days I’m carrying a G48, that works for me.. As far as the P-7 goes, I think it’s safe to say that even though HK still has all the tooling, you’ll never see new ones again, because, money… they got to the point that they were too labor intensive to build, so down the road they went.. I had one, the bright side was it was stupid accurate, had an excellent trigger, the down sides were it wasn’t exactly light, got hot quickly and at this point in time parts are getting hard to find, and once HK’s p7 parts stash dries up that’s it.. They were a cool pistol in the day, but that day is gone…

[BCG]

All of their “new” models are hideously clunky and top heavy. Any idea why they don’t return to a design that made them famous?

Nein! Bore axis is fine.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Question -- what is the single most popular pistol in the USPSA carry optics division? Answer -- the one with the highest bore axis.

For the unwashed, what would that pistol be?

[GJM]

For the unwashed, what would that pistol be?

X5 Legion.

[octagon]

I've never been much of a HK fan as they are not inexpensive and usually large in comparison to the competition. That said I love the P7 and would really like it if they or another would make a quality copy or at least use some of the features in a modern interpretation. A polymer, striker fired gun with a reverse gas delayed blowback set up similar to the Laugo Alien but without offset piston could be interesting and should help with the heat issue in longer shooting sessions. The straighter mag angle/feed angle design was nice as was the easy takedown, fast/easy reloads and safe action weirdness of the squeeze cocking once a user got used to it. The trigger was excellent.

As far as bore axis goes small differences make small differences. And the total package makes a bigger difference than a single factor.

Bore axis, slide weight, overall weight, sights, trigger, capacity, rules, cost, ergonomics, aftermarket support, grip angle, grip shape, texture, locking system, frame material all play a part in how a shooter and gun interact and thus preference.

[GJM]

I've never been much of a HK fan as they are not inexpensive and usually large in comparison to the competition. That said I love the P7 and would really like it if they or another would make a quality copy or at least use some of the features in a modern interpretation. A polymer, striker fired gun with a reverse gas delayed blowback set up similar to the Laugo Alien but without offset piston could be interesting and should help with the heat issue in longer shooting sessions. The straighter mag angle/feed angle design was nice as was the easy takedown, fast/easy reloads and safe action weirdness of the squeeze cocking once a user got used to it. The trigger was excellent.

As far as bore axis goes small differences make small differences. And the total package makes a bigger difference than a single factor.

Bore axis, slide weight, overall weight, sights, trigger, capacity, rules, cost, ergonomics, aftermarket support, grip angle, grip shape, texture, locking system, frame material all play a part in how a shooter and gun interact and thus preference.

For a competition pistol, if you could pick two of these three (favorable bore axis, great trigger, greater overall pistol weight), who would pick bore axis? For a defensive pistol, if you could pick three of these four (favorable bore axis, very shootable trigger, reliable function, excellent accuracy), who would pick bore axis? With all other things equal, and they never are, I would like favorable bore axis.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

X5 Legion.

I've never handled one of those but looking at pics it appears to have what I would consider to be excellent height over bore. My only real concern there has nothing to do with 'recoil mitigation' and everything to do with alignment of my trigger finger. Basically, I like the beavertail to be in line with the hinge point of the trigger. The lower the bore axis goes from there the less I generally care for a design. One reason why I love the USP and P2000 so much is they are dead on in that metric and most people who have serious time on those pistols appreciate them for business purposes, not necessarily gaming.

[1slow]

As some one who has had 6 P7s I am not a fan.
They heat up, the cocking mechanism is noisy giving away your position and 5/6 of mine were not reliable or durable.

****My 1982 P7 9mm butt magazine release was flawlessly reliable. At that time I was very impressed with the design and neatness of the P7.***

One other P7 9mm butt magazine release pistol went back to HK 2 times, with no good result, and was finally swapped out with a HK rep for a pistol that worked.

Of my 4 P7 M8 9mms:
2 broke in light use, 1 had the right side magazine release break, 1 had the squeeze cock mechanism break. These were fixed then sold.

I have had:
6+ HK p30 9mm LEM,
12+ HK USP 45s, FS, TAC, Expert, Elite,
6+ HK USP 9mms, FS, TAC, Expert,
4 HK P2000 SK 9mm.

All of these have had much more use than my P7s ( with the exception of my 1st P7 9mm butt magazine release) and given much less trouble.

I am aware this is a minority opinion but it was my experience.

[MattyD380]

I’ve always thought P7s were cool. But I guess not enough to actually buy one. Unusual to hear of problems with them. 10 years ago, the prices weren’t bonkers—I guess I missed my chance. I’ll say that it’s contemporary, the Walther P5, is one of my all time favorites. Lucked out to have found the one I did. I feel like it actually has a pretty low bore axis, for a hammer fired gun. Feels really good to shoot.

On another note…

Anyone hear anything else about the new HK pistol that cropped up as a patent sketch? Kinda surprised nothing came of it at Shot.

[Sig_Fiend]

I tend to be an absolutist when left unchecked, so I get the sentiment. That said, let's put things in perspective. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater over what amounts to maybe a 0.05-0.10 second difference in splits? I can understand that if talking about maximum performance for competition. For defense/duty usage? That seems like a wasteful way to write off entire platforms. I would say put that potential difference in splits in context with shooting at "assessment speed", and determine for yourself if it's really that big of a deal or more in the realm of inconsequential.

In contrast, some things you stand to lose by throwing out HK's "newer models" (I'll take that to mean anything since the 90's):

Robust pistol magazines

Arguably second to none.
Excluding USP FS 9/40 polymer mags, which I know less about. Though, I hear the polymer-coated 18rd 9mm mags are quite robust.

Highly cross-compatible mags

In the case of full size steel 9mm mags, compatible with 8 HK models. Full size, compact, and subcompact.
No other OEM I'm aware of has this degree of mag compatibility between both hammer and striker fired guns. (CZ has a little)

Robust extraction and ejection

Arguably second to none, at least as far as mass-produced polymer-framed guns go. Seriously, these guns are boring in this regard, and boring is good.

CHF barrels that are some of the most durable

They effectively last a lifetime for mere mortals.
Superb out of the box accuracy.
Factory threaded barrels available for almost all models.
It's nice knowing you never have to resort to the aftermarket for such a critical component.

Wide range of trigger options for the hammer guns

Choose your adventure or application.
Ability to switch between more trigger setups than probably any other platform.
Creates a good degree of parts compatibility between many models spanning the last 30yrs.

Paddle mag release

Has the potential to be faster for some shooters, though probably highly dependent on hand size.
Nice from a carry standpoint in terms of less prone to inadvertent release from pressing against the body, torquing in the holster, etc.
Bonus points in that your holster design can wrap the underside of the trigger guard, effectively preventing movement of the mag release in-holster.


As far as the VP9, here are my main gripes:

The backstrap sizes are not ergonomic (same goes for the P30)

This method of adding a larger and larger tumor lower on the backstrap is preposterous. IMO, HK had the concept right with the P2K backstraps.
For those with larger hands and longer fingers, you also need additional girth in the grip arch area so overall grip circumference and trigger reach is extended appropriately.

Sear design seems flawed

I see the unrestricted sear movement as an unnecessary and potential point of concern. Same theoretical issue with the P320.
I don't understand why these 2 manufacturers will not build a notch, cage, etc. around the sear that physically prevents any movement until the trigger is pulled.
Think of the "fix" I'm describing as similar in concept to Glock's drop safety ledge built into their polymer trigger housing.
Admittedly, I may be overthinking and this may be a non-issue. Still, I don't like the fact there is even a question mark on this particular component design when a seemingly small change should eliminate it.

Also:

The charging aids on the slide create an extremely obnoxious sight picture. That feature needs to die IMO.
I'm skeptical about the unconventional firing pin safety design. Articulating lever vs. a block that depresses. Maybe a non-issue, but I like the definitive nature of a properly designed block (like their hammer guns).


Overall, I like the VP-series for what it is, minor annoyances aside. The factory optics mounting system seems robust, with steel adapter plates available. The guns perform well and are boringly reliable.

[19852+]

I used to shoot with some guys who loved their P-7's and they shot them quite well. I wanted one too but beside the high cost of the firearm there was the high cost of magazines. I almost got a P-7 M13 but again, magazines.. I have owned several of their poly frame pistols, USP .45c, P-2000 lem, and a P-30. I really like the lem trigger and I would strongly consider a USP 9 or P-30 lem. I own zero HK firearms presently.
My current love is 2 gun competition where the rifle is king and the pistol just needs to be reliable and easy to shoot accurately. My most recent 2 gun featured a full size ISPC steel at 60 yards, this was for the pistol.... one needs a good trigger.
If HK is making money selling the pistols they make then why would they change? I see their main target as being the police and military market.

[octagon]

Speaking of police market does anyone know of large department that issues H&K handguns as a duty sidearm? I can't think of any but I haven't kept up with issue guns for awhile.

[OlongJohnson]

As far as the VP9, here are my main gripes:

The backstrap sizes are not ergonomic (same goes for the P30)

This method of adding a larger and larger tumor lower on the backstrap is preposterous. IMO, HK had the concept right with the P2K backstraps.
For those with larger hands and longer fingers, you also need additional girth in the grip arch area so overall grip circumference and trigger reach is extended appropriately.



Yeah, that is obviously a bad idea the first time you try it with larger hands. And I blame it for the widespread reports of people struggling to be consistent in elevation with P30s.

My hypothesis is that Nills Griff has the German pistol industry Jedi mind tricked that his concept of humpbacked grips is the way to go. Even Sig went that way with the G10 grips for the higher-spec models like the P226 All-Around and others.

[JohnK]

From a dude that shoots 1911s in 45 primarily, and I am certainly not on the shooting level of some of you, I don't get stressed over the bore axis thing. I like my p series HKs, I like my p226 and while I know there are felt recoil/muzzle flip on the different types, I just don't get wrapped around the axle on it. If the gun is reliable and has good sights and is accurate then... well... the rest is up to me.