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View Full Version : Anyone mount an optic on Troy VTAC Alpha Battlerail?



Little Creek
08-22-2012, 05:31 AM
The optics I am making reference to are IER (approx 9" of eye relief) "Scout Scopes" like the Leupold Scout Scope 2.5X or the Burris 2.75X or 1.5X. Should the rail mounted scope hold zero or does the rail "move around". I have several of the Leupold scopes mounted in the forward position on leverguns and bolt guns. An inquiring mind wants to know.

Jay Cunningham
08-22-2012, 06:32 AM
I wouldn't mount an optic to that rail.

Little Creek
08-22-2012, 08:24 AM
I wouldn't mount an optic to that rail.

I was thinking you might say that. I won't waste my time with that.

orionz06
08-22-2012, 08:30 AM
The connection of the rail to the barrel nut leaves a lot to be desired. I would like the DD MFR tube instead but it is not worth the effort and money to swap over a few rails just because.

Look into a monolithic upper such as a Vltor VIS (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=605). Price sucks but it gets you almost what you want.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 08:34 AM
The connection of the rail to the barrel nut leaves a lot to be desired. I would like the DD MFR tube instead but it is not worth the effort and money to swap over a few rails just because. I think the DD mount is much better but might still get some movement. A DD Lite rail might be more stable.

What's the functional difference between the Lite and Omega X rails?

orionz06
08-22-2012, 08:44 AM
The Lite rail is a one piece rail that uses a proprietary barrel nut, the Omega is a 2 piece that uses the existing barrel nut and ring.

Functionally they are the same.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 08:47 AM
Are there benefits in utilizing the proprietary barrel nut as the attachment/indexing point?

orionz06
08-22-2012, 08:51 AM
None that I am aware of outside of appearance. The downsides are proprietary tools and different (sometimes) install procedures. I think going forward rails that use the GI barrel nut are going to be the norm. The Centurion Arms rails are catching my eye lately and they use a GI barrel nut. Supposed to be a rock solid rail. I would love to get one and set up another gun to shoot but I really can't justify it at the moment.

joshs
08-22-2012, 08:56 AM
Are there benefits in utilizing the proprietary barrel nut as the attachment/indexing point?

Both the Lite and Omega X use DD's barrel nut. The standard Omega uses a stock barrel nut. The biggest advantage of using DD's barrel nut is that it does not have to be timed to align with the gas tube. You simply torque it to spec and install the rail.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 09:00 AM
To give some background, I'm looking at adding a rail to my 6920. Currently, with the MOE foregrip, my upper body is too cramped and I was looking at adding a rail that doesn't require shaving the FSB but will give me more reach in the foregrip.

I was looking at the Troy Delta rail, but VG's comments re: how it mounts to the barrel nut got me thinking.

So now I'm looking at the DD options (Omega X, Lite Rail, M4)

joshs
08-22-2012, 09:11 AM
I wouldn't mount an optic to that rail.

I agree As someone who regrets having mounted my front sight on a Troy rail, I certainly wouldn't want my primary sighting device to rely on the rail's ability to hold zero.

joshs
08-22-2012, 09:16 AM
I was looking at adding a rail that doesn't require shaving the FSB but will give me more reach in the foregrip.

Both DD and Centurion Arms make extended rails that do not require shaving the FSB.

LOKNLOD
08-22-2012, 09:17 AM
I agree As someone who regrets having mounted my front sight on a Troy rail

As someone with a front sight mounted on a Troy rail, I'd be interested in any specifics.

orionz06
08-22-2012, 09:30 AM
To give some background, I'm looking at adding a rail to my 6920. Currently, with the MOE foregrip, my upper body is too cramped and I was looking at adding a rail that doesn't require shaving the FSB but will give me more reach in the foregrip.

I was looking at the Troy Delta rail, but VG's comments re: how it mounts to the barrel nut got me thinking.

So now I'm looking at the DD options (Omega X, Lite Rail, M4)

If it were me I would buy this (http://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=C4-FSP-rails.tpl&product_id=82) sight unseen. Rainier Arms (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975) has a little better price. It appears to be slightly cheaper than the DD Omega FSP.

The DD Omega FSP (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/944140/daniel-defense-omega-x-120-fsp-free-float-tube-handguard-quad-rail-ar-15-extended-carbine-length-aluminum-black) is the other I would look at.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 09:36 AM
If it were me I would buy this (http://www.centurionarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.product_details&flypage=C4-FSP-rails.tpl&product_id=82) sight unseen. Rainier Arms (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2975) has a little better price. It appears to be slightly cheaper than the DD Omega FSP.

I'm really anxious about taking a dremel to the delta ring and handguard cap...but it looks like I'd have to do this for both the DD and Centurion rails.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 09:39 AM
I'm really anxious about taking a dremel to the delta ring and handguard cap...but it looks like I'd have to do this for both the DD and Centurion rails.

Correction: I could just remove the entire barrel and take off the barrel nut/delta ring from the receiver end.

orionz06
08-22-2012, 09:42 AM
I'm really anxious about taking a dremel to the delta ring and handguard cap...but it looks like I'd have to do this for both the DD and Centurion rails.

To do the others you would have to chop the FSB too. The delta ring is really a non-issue.


Correction: I could just remove the entire barrel and take off the barrel nut/delta ring from the receiver end.

Yes but you are now almost all the way towards installing a non-FSP rail as well, just 2 pins away.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 09:56 AM
To do the others you would have to chop the FSB too. The delta ring is really a non-issue.

I thought the whole point of the Omega X 12.0 FSP and C4 FSP was that I could preserve the front sight (which is what I want)?


Yes but you are now almost all the way towards installing a non-FSP rail as well, just 2 pins away.
Plus having to buy a low profile gas block and replacement front sight. Which I'm really not wanting to do :confused:

orionz06
08-22-2012, 10:03 AM
I thought the whole point of the Omega X 12.0 FSP and C4 FSP was that I could preserve the front sight (which is what I want)?

I meant the other non-FSP rails but I forgot that the Troy Delta was also FSP.


Plus having to buy a low profile gas block and replacement front sight. Which I'm really not wanting to do :confused:

I got them mixed up. Any rate, I would not buy a lo-pro, I would just chop. At that point you are only out a rail mount front sight which is $50. That may open up some options.

joshs
08-22-2012, 11:15 AM
As someone with a front sight mounted on a Troy rail, I'd be interested in any specifics.

I've been able to shift the rail enough to cause POA/POI issues with both sling tension and using a barricade/support. I've also mysteriously lost my irons zero a couple of times, which I think is due to the rail twisting. On my upper the index tab doesn't make physical contact with the upper when the rail is lined up with the upper, so the only thing keeping the rail from twisting is the clamping pressure.


Correction: I could just remove the entire barrel and take off the barrel nut/delta ring from the receiver end.

You cannot take the barrel nut off from the receiver end of the barrel because of the barrel extension. Either of the DD rails will require complete disassembly, only the Centurion rail can be attached by cutting the delta ring and hand guard cap.

Unless you feel you need a much longer rail, you could probably get by with just the DD or Centurion 9.5 FSP style rails.

It seems to work well for this guy.
974

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 11:35 AM
You cannot take the barrel nut off from the receiver end of the barrel because of the barrel extension. Either of the DD rails will require complete disassembly, only the Centurion rail can be attached by cutting the delta ring and hand guard cap.

So I'd have to remove the gas tube and front sight post?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get an accurate scope of what's involved. Thanks!

jwperry
08-22-2012, 01:33 PM
So I'd have to remove the gas tube and front sight post?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get an accurate scope of what's involved. Thanks!

To install the DD FSP rail, you'll have to remove everything forward of the barrel nut (FH, FSP, gas tube, hand guard cap) so that you can install DD's barrel nut.

The Centurion rail uses the factory barrel nut, so you just Dremel the delta ring off.

I recently purchased a pair of Midwest Industries FSP rails that require the delta ring to be cut off. Lock up and mounting seems very solid and my POA/POI didn't shift from installation(I wasn't sure if it would or not since I didn't remove the barrel nut, simply clamped down a rail onto it). No real round counts other than 1 mag through each rifle in 10 shot increments to verify zero, but I tried torquing and pulling the thing while in my vice to see if I could make it rotate, slip or shake the screws loose and none of that happened. If I was only planning on mounting a sling, light and some rail covers on it, I wouldn't hesitate to buy these since they are half the price of the Centurion rails. Only downside I could see so far is no internal heat shield.

Jay Cunningham
08-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Make sure you ask yourself why you want/need a FF rail before dropping $300. Define your requirements before you buy instead of justifying/rationalizing after you buy.

Not picking on anyone, just some advice.

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 01:52 PM
Make sure you ask yourself why you want/need a FF rail before dropping $300. Define your requirements before you buy instead of justifying/rationalizing after you buy.

Not picking on anyone, just some advice.

I think I posted it in an earlier post, but I can't get a comfortable grip without reaching forward of the FSP.

Jay Cunningham
08-22-2012, 01:58 PM
I think I posted it in an earlier post, but I can't get a comfortable grip without reaching forward of the FSP.

That's a good reason for a longer handguard. So consider what would best meet that need.

Also curious how far you run your stock out?

bdcheung
08-22-2012, 02:11 PM
That's a good reason for a longer handguard. So consider what would best meet that need.

Also curious how far you run your stock out?

Fully extended.

I have long arms. I'm 5'11" but my best fitting shirts are bespoke, 15" neck and 36.5" sleeve.

LOKNLOD
08-22-2012, 02:19 PM
I think I posted it in an earlier post, but I can't get a comfortable grip without reaching forward of the FSP.

This unsolicited advice, so take it or leave it - depending on where your hand will be, the FSB sticking up out of the rail can get pretty hot. In that pic of Jack, he's got gloves on, but if you don't (or don't want to) shoot with gloves, you might find yourself burning your thumb on the FSB. I had a DD 9.5FSP with a light mounted like Jack has in the pic, and kept finding my thumb on hot steel.

joshs
08-22-2012, 02:38 PM
This unsolicited advice, so take it or leave it - depending on where your hand will be, the FSB sticking up out of the rail can get pretty hot. In that pic of Jack, he's got gloves on, but if you don't (or don't want to) shoot with gloves, you might find yourself burning your thumb on the FSB. I had a DD 9.5FSP with a light mounted like Jack has in the pic, and kept finding my thumb on hot steel.

Do you shoot thumb over the rail or thumb forward? I generally keep my thumb over the rail, and I've never had a problem with burning it on the FSB.

And, Jack was using gloves because of the cold, not heat from the FSB. The temperature stayed below freezing for almost that entire day of class. On day 2, which was much warmer, Jack shot without gloves.

LOKNLOD
08-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Do you shoot thumb over the rail or thumb forward? I generally keep my thumb over the rail, and I've never had a problem with burning it on the FSB.

And, Jack was using gloves because of the cold, not heat from the FSB. The temperature stayed below freezing for almost that entire day of class. On day 2, which was much warmer, Jack shot without gloves.

Thumb over. The light was in the approximately the same position as shown, and my thumb rested pretty close to it. Not that I spent a lot of time working the light, just that I didn't have to move much to activate it.

Didn't mean to infer too much from the pic, just wanted to toss out the potential for a heat issue based on the bdc's description of how he grips the gun.

Onikudaki
08-23-2012, 02:01 PM
I've been able to shift the rail enough to cause POA/POI issues with both sling tension and using a barricade/support. I've also mysteriously lost my irons zero a couple of times, which I think is due to the rail twisting. On my upper the index tab doesn't make physical contact with the upper when the rail is lined up with the upper, so the only thing keeping the rail from twisting is the clamping pressure.


Is this with the new TRX Alpha that mounts to the standard barrel nut or with the TRX Extreme that used the troy barrel nut and helicoils to mount up?

Little Creek
08-26-2012, 06:49 AM
I just acquired a Wilson combat sling swivel stud for a rail that puts the QD at a 45 degree angle. I plan to put this as close to the upper receiver as possible to minimize the pressure on the muzzle end of the rail where the MBUIS is located. Will this lessen the chance that the iron sights will not hold zero?

joshs
08-26-2012, 09:12 AM
I just acquired a Wilson combat sling swivel stud for a rail that puts the QD at a 45 degree angle. I plan to put this as close to the upper receiver as possible to minimize the pressure on the muzzle end of the rail where the MBUIS is located. Will this lessen the chance that the iron sights will not hold zero?

Maybe, but I wouldn't compromise optimal sling positioning to limit back-up sight shift while slung-up. No matter where you put the forward sling connector, it shouldn't cause a loss of zero, only a shift while actually under tension. You also may not have the zero loss issues that I do because of the improved attachment system used on the Alpha rail.