LAPD gets 1st delivery of new FN 509s

[Tokarev]

News not directly related to 2022 SHOT Show:

https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/articles/lapd-gets-first-delivery-of-its-new-duty-weapon-the-fn-509-mrd-le-tU8UORqEARuRc2SS/?utm_source=Police1&utm_campaign=8d483fe849-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2022_01_19_07_17&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5584e6920b-8d483fe849-83973760

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[JonInWA]

How the heck did they justify choosing that over a comparable Glock, or, for that matter, HK?

Best, Jon

[hk45]

Holy bore axis!

[PNWTO]

How the heck did they justify choosing that over a comparable Glock, or, for that matter, HK?

Best, Jon

Cynically, money talks. Without any research on my part I’m sure the price-per-unit, additional equipment/parts, and training was very attractive.

FWIW, Aaron Cowan has said in multiple mediums that he believes the FN optic mounting system to be the best that is currently available. He may not be the “end-all” SME but his opinion is noteworthy. To be fair, I don’t really monitor the influencer crowd so that opinion may have changed.

[jnc36rcpd]

FN got the contract at my former agency by undercutting the S&W offer so money may talk. After the disastrous experience of the FNS-9, I'm sure FN was salivating to get a prestige contract like LAPD even at a low profit.

[DamonL]

There is some info on the testing done in this article.

https://www.police1.com/police-products/firearms/articles/inside-look-why-the-lapd-chose-the-fn-509-mrd-le-as-its-new-duty-weapon-p0U1x0A7c0gNUs1V/

[Navin Johnson]

Cynically, money talks. Without any research on my part I’m sure the price-per-unit, additional equipment/parts, and training was very attractive.

FWIW, Aaron Cowan has said in multiple mediums that he believes the FN optic mounting system to be the best that is currently available. He may not be the “end-all” SME but his opinion is noteworthy. To be fair, I don’t really monitor the influencer crowd so that opinion may have changed.

My guess is any manufacturer would have made whatever mounting system the LAPD wanted to have that contract

[HCM]

How the heck did they justify choosing that over a comparable Glock, or, for that matter, HK?

Best, Jon

It’s not like we didn’t already have a whole thread on the topic…https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49314-FN-509-News-You-Can-Use

But the Cliff notes:

The FN 509 has the best factory modular optics mounting system. That’s not based solely on Cowan’s opinion.

The FN 509 has passed other agency testing (including my own) but simply did not get the contract in those instances. It’s a quality gun. This from someone who would not recommend any prior FN polymer service pistol for any serious use. Simply put when the MHS solicitation came up FN finally got serious about service pistols and they unfucked themselves.

This particular model for LAPD comes with an Apex trigger (or at least the trigger shoe) as OEM.

LAPD doesn’t transition the entire Dept when the switch guns. The new gun is what is issued to new hires for the life of the contract. In-service officers previously qualified on other striker fired platforms such as Glock and Smith and Wesson have the option of keeping their existing guns or transitioning to the FN at their own expense if they wish. LAPD previously had Glocks in 40 and 9mm and dropped them for S&W M&P 9mm, which is now being “replaced” by the FN. So LAPD is very familiar with Glocks.

Without getting into the weeds on the VP9, the HK VP9 has not fared well in US LE Agency trials and I’m not aware of any significant institutional users in the US.

[HCM]

My guess is any manufacturer would have made whatever mounting system the LAPD wanted to have that contract

The mounting system on the FN 509 was developed for the MHS contract not for the LAPD contract.

And since LAPD does not switch out the entire department when they switch guns it’s not that lucrative. The only people being issued FN 509’s are new hires going through the Academy during the life of the contract.

The real benefit is collateral sales and getting agencies to look at FN who would have other wise only looked at the big 3- Glock, SIG, S&W.

[HCM]

FN got the contract at my former agency by undercutting the S&W offer so money may talk. After the disastrous experience of the FNS-9, I'm sure FN was salivating to get a prestige contract like LAPD even at a low profit.



I was an FN pistol hater for a long time. The FNP, FNX, and FNS are all pieces of s**t. In fact I have m, on this forum been calling out incidents of the FNS discharging in duty holsters long before the P320 was released.

That said, when the military MHS contract came up m, FN got serious, hired some real talent and unfucked themselves.
The FN MHS entrant and the non-public version of that tested by my agency were both essentially FN 509’s. The 509 is a safe and reliable service pistol on par with Glock Smith & Wesson SIG etc.

I can certainly understand your personal distaste for FN given what a turd the FNS was, but there’s a lot of people in this thread talking a lot of s**t about things they know nothing about.

One thing you are correct about is that while the actual sales to LAPD are minimal since they don’t transition the entire department the collateral sales in southern California and from other agencies that might not have looked at the 509 are worth a lot of money.

[jnc36rcpd]

The FNS experience at my former agency does leave me with a bitter taste in my mouth. This was compounded by FN representatives at a long ago promotional gig trying to convince me that all the California SWAT teams and the FDLE special operations teams were adopting the FN5.7. This was exacerbated by the cool guy firearms instructors trying to push me out of the program desperate to choose a pistol that, #1, the county police did not carry abd, #2, that we'd be really cool because almost no other agency carried the FNS.

That bile spewed, FN clearly makes some quality firearms. I will also comment that FN was quick to admit and attempt to correct the issues with our weapons, FN replaced barrels and magazines with no issues. That resolved most of the issues. Many of the problems stemmed from pistol-mounted lights. Ironically enough, our new cool guy firearms training coordinator had decided PML's would be mandated with our new pistols.That policy didn't last long.

While I haven't shot the FN 509, it seems better than the FNS. For the sake of LAPD officers, I hope it is.

I will remark that, when we realized our FNS-9's were garbage. I didn't send a department-wide email suggesting we ask FN to trade our FNS-9's for Hi-Powers.

[JHC]

It’s not like we didn’t already have a whole thread on the topic…https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49314-FN-509-News-You-Can-Use

But the Cliff notes:

The FN 509 has the best factory modular optics mounting system. That’s not based solely on Cowan’s opinion.

The FN 509 has passed other agency testing (including my own) but simply did not get the contract in those instances. It’s a quality gun. This from someone who would not recommend any prior FN polymer service pistol for any serious use. Simply put when the MHS solicitation came up FN finally got serious about service pistols and they unfucked themselves.

This particular model for LAPD comes with an Apex trigger (or at least the trigger shoe) as OEM.

LAPD doesn’t transition the entire Dept when the switch guns. The new gun is what is issued to new hires for the life of the contract. In-service officers previously qualified on other striker fired platforms such as Glock and Smith and Wesson have the option of keeping their existing guns or transitioning to the FN at their own expense if they wish. LAPD previously had Glocks in 40 and 9mm and dropped them for S&W M&P 9mm, which is now being “replaced” by the FN. So LAPD is very familiar with Glocks.

Without getting into the weeds on the VP9, the HK VP9 has not fared well in US LE Agency trials and I’m not aware of any significant institutional users in the US.

I stopped reading words about FN pistols some years ago. This was really interesting and a great "catch up". Now I'm going to read that thread.

[TeeBee]

What are the chances FN releases this configuration to the non-LEO market?

[Stephanie B]

I will remark that, when we realized our FNS-9's were garbage. I didn't send a department-wide email suggesting we ask FN to trade our FNS-9's for Hi-Powers.

But somebody did? :cool:

[YVK]

Without getting into the weeds on the VP9, the HK VP9 has not fared well in US LE Agency trials and I’m not aware of any significant institutional users in the US.

Well, now that you said it, weeds are always interesting...

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Well, now that you said it, weeds are always interesting...

I'd like to hear this because, well, it's the internet and nothing says you care like derailing a perfectly uninteresting thread about FN with chatter about an H&K rival.

[TCinVA]

There's a department local to me that issues the 509 and...well...it's not gone well.

The lug on the front of the magazine that holds it in the gun tends to wear to the point where I know officers who are literally holding an issued magazine in the gun teacup style to get it to work. (Replace it? Are you kidding? That would cost money!)

In addition I've had personnel from that department show up to training sessions with guns that were unable to fire. As in present the gun from the holster, press trigger, get absolutely nothing. As well as failures to reset. Even allowing for stupid user tricks it's deeply concerning.

[HCM]

What are the chances FN releases this configuration to the non-LEO market?

There’s no reason not to outside the CA market.

[HCM]

There's a department local to me that issues the 509 and...well...it's not gone well.

The lug on the front of the magazine that holds it in the gun tends to wear to the point where I know officers who are literally holding an issued magazine in the gun teacup style to get it to work. (Replace it? Are you kidding? That would cost money!)

In addition I've had personnel from that department show up to training sessions with guns that were unable to fire. As in present the gun from the holster, press trigger, get absolutely nothing. As well as failures to reset. Even allowing for stupid user tricks it's deeply concerning.

Interesting. We ran 10 examples through 10,000 rounds each in 250 round increments, 5 with TLR-1s mounted and 5 without, with no such issues.

Given our results, the LAPD’s results and the results of at least one medium sized Dept that tested 509s I’d be curious to know what the disconnect is.

They wouldn’t be the first company to have guns go out with bad batches of parts from sun contractors.

[jnc36rcpd]

But somebody did? :cool:

Sadly, no. I doubt either the firearms training staff nor the admin building would have found the proposal as amusing as it might be received here. Of course, with the increased use of the Staccato 2011 in law enforcement and the reintroduction of the Hi-Power by both FN and Springfield, the proposal might have had some legs.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Makes you wonder if the 509's that passed trials were cherry picked and built to pass knowing that other examples would fail.

[Squib308]

I’m not as cool as LAPD, but I did own an FN 509 circa 2018. It was reliable but awful. Magazines only dropped free if mag release was pressed from the R side. The trigger felt like gravel and had unpredictable catches in the trigger press. I tried to diagnose the site of friction in the firing mechanism but never could. It got worse with more dry fire and use. My theory was the striker safety caused rotation of the striker itself against the inside of the slide. FN’s customer service (via phone) was absolutely worthless. That’s my last FN product. I kept my FN SLP 12 gauge but nothing in FN’s product line appeals to me.

[Borderland]

Interesting thread. ;)

[TCinVA]

I’m not as cool as LAPD, but I did own an FN 509 circa 2018. It was reliable but awful. Magazines only dropped free if mag release was pressed from the R side. The trigger felt like gravel and had unpredictable catches in the trigger press. I tried to diagnose the site of friction in the firing mechanism but never could. It got worse with more dry fire and use. My theory was the striker safety caused rotation of the striker itself against the inside of the slide. FN’s customer service (via phone) was absolutely worthless. That’s my last FN product. I kept my FN SLP 12 gauge but nothing in FN’s product line appeals to me.

I believe the local department bought their guns around the same time frame.

[jh9]

Makes you wonder if the 509's that passed trials were cherry picked and built to pass knowing that other examples would fail.

I don't know about cherry picked, but isn't one of the larger federal agencies that issues the 320 restricting its personnel to using one SKU of 320?

It's easy to take for granted that everyone builds guns like S&W where an M&P is an M&P as opposed to Sig where I guess if you buy enough guns we'll make a specific SKU for you where we source from vendors who don't make parts out of pot metal and even do some actual QC. But for the rest of the schlubs you get what you get. Take your diamond plate slide and be thankful.

[HCM]

I don't know about cherry picked, but isn't one of the larger federal agencies that issues the 320 restricting its personnel to using one SKU of 320?

It's easy to take for granted that everyone builds guns like S&W where an M&P is an M&P as opposed to Sig where I guess if you buy enough guns we'll make a specific SKU for you where we source from vendors who don't make parts out of pot metal and even do some actual QC. But for the rest of the schlubs you get what you get. Take your diamond plate slide and be thankful.

Yes, DHS / ICE. But it’s only the FCU that’s restricted. It can be combined with any OEM grip except the tungsten grips and any OEM slide except those with extra holes /lightening cuts like the PRO and Specter slides.

They are also going to start requiring POW P365 series guns be purchased via the SIG IOP / LE program (verifiable via serial number prefix) due to supposedly higher QC.

If you buy enough guns any of the major players will make what you want….

[WobblyPossum]

I don't know about cherry picked, but isn't one of the larger federal agencies that issues the 320 restricting its personnel to using one SKU of 320?

It's easy to take for granted that everyone builds guns like S&W where an M&P is an M&P as opposed to Sig where I guess if you buy enough guns we'll make a specific SKU for you where we source from vendors who don't make parts out of pot metal and even do some actual QC. But for the rest of the schlubs you get what you get. Take your diamond plate slide and be thankful.

There are a small amount of approved SKUs of P320 and none are available commercially if you aren’t an authorized agency employee. I believe there are 7 approved SKUs: full-size, carry, and subcompact that are not optics ready, full-size, carry, and compact that are optics ready, and the SRT gun which is a tan, optics ready full-size with a magwell and flat trigger. The fire control groups in those SKUs have a specific serial number prefix and if your P320 fire control group doesn’t have that prefix, you can’t carry it on duty. They used to allow any P365 sourced from anywhere but now people will be restricted to the Armed Professional Program SKUs with a W prefix to the SKU. They could have whatever serial number but must be APP guns going forward.

ETA: I didn’t see that HCM replied already. He is correct. The approved SKUs just started in the configurations I listed. Once you have a fire control group from one of those SKUs, you can use most of the slides and frames in the catalog. Whatever parts or quality control differences there are between the DHS SKUs and the commercial ones are probably in the fire control group.

[HCM]

I’m not as cool as LAPD, but I did own an FN 509 circa 2018. It was reliable but awful. Magazines only dropped free if mag release was pressed from the R side. The trigger felt like gravel and had unpredictable catches in the trigger press. I tried to diagnose the site of friction in the firing mechanism but never could. It got worse with more dry fire and use. My theory was the striker safety caused rotation of the striker itself against the inside of the slide. FN’s customer service (via phone) was absolutely worthless. That’s my last FN product. I kept my FN SLP 12 gauge but nothing in FN’s product line appeals to me.

Mags not dropping on early 509s was a known issue (since fixed) swapping out for the “tactical” (single side) mag release supposedly fixes the issue in older guns. This likely resulted from an over correction to the fact the 509s ill fated predecessor, the FNS, was notorious for dumping mags when carried /holstered.

Triggers on the 509 are meh but they did pre-game a better aftermarket trigger with APEX before the 509 was released. Likely why the LAPD model appears to come with the APEX.

FN is a euro gun company that thinks of the MIL/GOV as their “real” customer. As a result FN Commercial seems to have inherited the poor customer service HK used to be famous for.

[HCM]

I believe the local department bought their guns around the same time frame.

Have they addressed this with FN’s LE reps ? If not do they need a POC ?

[JTQ]

If you buy enough guns any of the major players will make what you want….
One of the most surprising to me was West Virginia State Police getting S&W 4566 pistols about a decade ago, about a decade after S&W stopped producing their TDA line of pistols.

https://www.policemag.com/348403/sw-delivers-new-sidearms-to-west-virginia-state-police-and-wyoming-highway-patro

[kwb377]

One of the most surprising to me was West Virginia State Police getting S&W 4566 pistols about a decade ago, about a decade after S&W stopped producing their TDA line of pistols.

https://www.policemag.com/348403/sw-delivers-new-sidearms-to-west-virginia-state-police-and-wyoming-highway-patro

Saw this on GB yesterday...

WVSP 4566
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/922337187

[HCM]

One of the most surprising to me was West Virginia State Police getting S&W 4566 pistols about a decade ago, about a decade after S&W stopped producing their TDA line of pistols.

https://www.policemag.com/348403/sw-delivers-new-sidearms-to-west-virginia-state-police-and-wyoming-highway-patro

Those and the 5946s for NYPD and RCMP west the last 3rd gen’s supported by S&W but even that came to an end a few years ago.

[HCM]

One of the most surprising to me was West Virginia State Police getting S&W 4566 pistols about a decade ago, about a decade after S&W stopped producing their TDA line of pistols.

https://www.policemag.com/348403/sw-delivers-new-sidearms-to-west-virginia-state-police-and-wyoming-highway-patro

Those, CHP 4006s, and the 5946s for NYPD and RCMP west the last 3rd gen’s supported by S&W but even that came to an end a few years ago.

[jh9]

If you buy enough guns any of the major players will make what you want….

True, but a 6920 is a 6920, an M&P is an M&P, etc. Buy enough and they'll put whatever snowflake optic cut you want on the slide, or put your department name on it, etc. But that doesn't fundamentally change what the gun is.

For Sig, it seems like the commerical guns may be built to an entirely different (inferior) standard than the guns they sell to the fed or even as part of their IOP if you're buying a specific SKU. It's like Palmetto with their different "tiers" of products, only more opaque.

[HCM]

True, but a 6920 is a 6920, an M&P is an M&P, etc. Buy enough and they'll put whatever snowflake optic cut you want on the slide, or put your department name on it, etc. But that doesn't fundamentally change what the gun is.

For Sig, it seems like the commerical guns may be built to an entirely different (inferior) standard than the guns they sell to the fed or even as part of their IOP if you're buying a specific SKU. It's like Palmetto with their different "tiers" of products, only more opaque.

You’re talking about two different things. Actually three different things.

If you think colt, Smith & Wesson, Glock etc. don’t do different things for different customers you are sadly mistaken.

Also with Colt, the days of the “one production line” and mostly in-house production went away with the GOV contract. There’s nothing wrong with the current colts but they’re not what you’re talking about anymore.

But we’ll stick with Sig in this instance. SIG has commercial guns and IOP /LE guns. That’s it unless an agency is willing to place a large enough order to justify what ever accommodations they want. Even then, those are simply going to be modified IOP guns.

SIG IOP guns Are not materially different than the commercial guns but they are subject to higher levels of quality control checks. They may also get preference for parts from certain vendors. For example when I took the Sig 320 armorers course a few years ago SIG was recommending the made in Italy magazines for duty use and they advised that IOP or agency purchase guns should come with the made in Italy magazines. I believe this is prior to check mate becoming the second American made magazine vendor.

As far as agency specific guns, the prior DHS duty guns (P229s) Were produced and supplied with the original forged machined short extractors because it was a contractual requirement. The reason it was a contractual requirement was that’s how the guns were tested in 2004 and excepting am I am long extractor guns would’ve required an expensive retest. You’re also talking about an entity which is buying tens of thousands of pistols between ICE, USSS, and the FAMS.

Regarding the DHS SKU P320, the only difference between that FCU and an IOP FCU is the coating on the internal parts. The operative factors here being that’s how the gun passed testing and if you want to buy 20,000 guns SIG will coat them in whatever you want.

Even with the special SKU and the additional SIG QC checks every P320 that hits the streets for ICE whether government issued or personally owned is reinspected by an agency armorer.

The best example of guns where there is a significant difference between commercial and LE models are the pre-bankruptcy Remington 870s.

[jh9]

If you think colt, Smith & Wesson, Glock etc. don’t do different things for different customers you are sadly mistaken.

That isn't what I was driving at.


but they are subject to higher levels of quality control checks. They may also get preference for parts from certain vendors. For example when I took the Sig 320 armorers course a few years ago SIG was recommending the made in Italy magazines for duty use and they advised that IOP or agency purchase guns should come with the made in Italy magazines.

...

The best example of guns where there is a significant difference between commercial and LE models are the pre-bankruptcy Remington 870s.

This is my concern. Even something as simple as a magazine substitution can be a source of problems if you don't know what it is. And the fact that Sig is content to quietly ship magazines they don't recommend for duty use with commercial guns is exactly what even the average schmoe should be at least a little concerned about. For a Production/CO gun, it's a mild annoyance but if you're gonna lego then you're going to have to troubleshoot anyway. For a box stock carry gun, I think that's a problem.

I do appreciate your insight into the 320. You have a front row seat and I'm watching this from way up in the bleachers. I also don't currently own an M&P so I'm not using that as an example out of fanboy devotion. It's just that I'm not aware of S&W shipping hobby-grade M&Ps to the commercial market in significant quantity while LE gets shit that was put together by an adult. If they were to start, I'd want to be aware of that too. Who wouldn't?

[HCM]

That isn't what I was driving at.



This is my concern. Even something as simple as a magazine substitution can be a source of problems if you don't know what it is. And the fact that Sig is content to quietly ship magazines they don't recommend for duty use with commercial guns is exactly what even the average schmoe should be at least a little concerned about. For a Production/CO gun, it's a mild annoyance but if you're gonna lego then you're going to have to troubleshoot anyway. For a box stock carry gun, I think that's a problem.

I do appreciate your insight into the 320. You have a front row seat and I'm watching this from way up in the bleachers. I also don't currently own an M&P so I'm not using that as an example out of fanboy devotion. It's just that I'm not aware of S&W shipping hobby-grade M&Ps to the commercial market in significant quantity while LE gets shit that was put together by an adult. If they were to start, I'd want to be aware of that too. Who wouldn't?

I think if the made in Italy vendor could supply all of six mags they probably would’ve stuck with those. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that around that time Sigg started using checkmate as a second US mag vendor. I’ve had six of the checkmate made legion mags Which I use as training mags. They have seen the majority of the 10,000 rounds I have between a pair of P320s And I have seen zero magazine related issues with them. The two different US mag suppliers have been discussed in another thread, the checkmates have a “C” marking on them the other vendor has a “J” marking I don’t know if we’ve ever determined for sure who the other US mag vendor is.

I don’t think you’ll find many companies that truly have a separate production line for LE guns. It’s more a matter of building guns in batches and when they are building batches of IOP or agency specific guns that means today we are using X parts or magazines But the same people are building those guns. With those guns usually do get is extra QC checks. For example years ago I was told that Glock blue label guns supposedly get six extra QC checks but they were otherwise identical to commercial guns.

An example of this would be an AR manufacturer which uses bolts that have been magnetic particle inspected and high-pressure tested in duty guns whereas their commercial bolts might come from the same source but not get those extra checks Because it cost money.

The people who want that extra QC are going to buy a colt, BCM, sons of liberty etc. instead of a rock river or a bushmaster.

[willie]

I owned 3 or 4 FN's and each had a magazine idiosyncrasy dictating strict adherence to angle of insertion. The ads said one thing, but the pistols were dullards. I figured out that they were designed by committee in an organization that didn't tolerate feedback from underlings. I will be surprised if armorers can repair them even if they do have a parts kit.

[kjr_29]

How the heck did they justify choosing that over a comparable Glock, or, for that matter, HK?

Best, Jon

I shot this version at the LVMPD range last week (Monday of SHOT Show week). ProForce has a copy waiting for us to try. It was fantastic, shot it alongside the new M&P flat trigger and G19.


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[kjr_29]

Likely why the LAPD model appears to come with the APEX.

The FN rep for the LAPD gun told me the trigger is an LAPD design spec worked over a few iterations to what it is on this version. Quite possible LAPD took APEX attributes into account.


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[HCM]

The FN rep for the LAPD gun told me the trigger is an LAPD design spec worked over a few iterations to what it is on this version. Quite possible LAPD took APEX attributes into account.


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The trigger shoe appears to be APEX. You may be correct about the internals it’s attached to.

Doesn’t FN have other 509 models that come with the apex trigger is OEM?

[HCM]

The FN rep for the LAPD gun told me the trigger is an LAPD design spec worked over a few iterations to what it is on this version. Quite possible LAPD took APEX attributes into account.


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The trigger shoe appears to be APEX. You may be correct about the internals it’s attached to.

Doesn’t FN have other 509 models that come with the apex trigger is OEM?

At the end of the video below FN Rep at SHOT show states all 509s going forward will come with the LAPD trigger.


https://youtu.be/MvO5VD1-xMY

[Hambo]

LAPD doesn’t transition the entire Dept when the switch guns. The new gun is what is issued to new hires for the life of the contract. In-service officers previously qualified on other striker fired platforms such as Glock and Smith and Wesson have the option of keeping their existing guns or transitioning to the FN at their own expense if they wish.

"First delivery" sounds impressive, but it's enough for training cadre and academy classes. I doubt LAPD wants to maintain a large inventory of unissued pistols.

[Texaspoff]

At the end of the video below FN Rep at SHOT show states all 509s going forward will come with the LAPD trigger.


https://youtu.be/MvO5VD1-xMY


We will see how it shakes out, but I'm not holding my breath. I have not had favorable experiences with the FN striker pistols, FNS or 509s.



TXPO

[kjr_29]

At the end of the video below FN Rep at SHOT show states all 509s going forward will come with the LAPD trigger.


https://youtu.be/MvO5VD1-xMY

That is a good thing, it was pretty nice.


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[HCountyGuy]

Hopefully this is a better version of the trigger found in the 509 LS "Edge". FN seemed to get the 509 about right and then said "Hey, let's make the trigger suck" yet sadly the Edge wasn't much better than stock. I know, trigger snobbery, but seriously the trigger is atrocious compared to competitor offerings.

I'm interested to see how the 509 evolves and improves.

[LockedBreech]

My reaction is pretty similar to when the military chose the P320. It's not my favorite nor would it have been my first choice, but for the men and women on the ground who deserve a good sidekick I hope it evolves successfully. Some promising progress from release, seems like.

[HCM]

LVMPD shooting of kidnapping suspect. One officer had an FN 509 with optic.


https://youtu.be/UNnlnvP4-hM

[iWander]

But the Cliff notes:

The FN 509 has the best factory modular optics mounting system. That’s not based solely on Cowan’s opinion.

The FN 509 has passed other agency testing (including my own) but simply did not get the contract in those instances. It’s a quality gun. This from someone who would not recommend any prior FN polymer service pistol for any serious use. Simply put when the MHS solicitation came up FN finally got serious about service pistols and they unfucked themselves.

This particular model for LAPD comes with an Apex trigger (or at least the trigger shoe) as OEM.

LAPD doesn’t transition the entire Dept when the switch guns. The new gun is what is issued to new hires for the life of the contract. In-service officers previously qualified on other striker fired platforms such as Glock and Smith and Wesson have the option of keeping their existing guns or transitioning to the FN at their own expense if they wish. LAPD previously had Glocks in 40 and 9mm and dropped them for S&W M&P 9mm, which is now being “replaced” by the FN. So LAPD is very familiar with Glocks.

Without getting into the weeds on the VP9, the HK VP9 has not fared well in US LE Agency trials and I’m not aware of any significant institutional users in the US.

I was tasked with replacing our Sig Classic firearms in 2018.

Of the 6 models in the test, the 509 & VP9 were in the lower half, only beating the APX. The biggest gripe about the 509 was the difficulty depressing the mag release.

[HCM]

I was tasked with replacing our Sig Classic firearms in 2018.

Of the 6 models in the test, the 509 & VP9 were in the lower half, only beating the APX. The biggest gripe about the 509 was the difficulty depressing the mag release.

The 509 mags being difficult to release has been a common issue. The 509’s predecessor, the FNS had the opposite issue. Seems like FN over corrected.

[iWander]

The 509 mags being difficult to release has been a common issue. The 509’s predecessor, the FNS had the opposite issue. Seems like FN over corrected.My 9 & 40 FNSs must have been anomalies... Didn't have a single issue including with attached WMLs

[MandoWookie]

I was tasked with replacing our Sig Classic firearms in 2018.

Of the 6 models in the test, the 509 & VP9 were in the lower half, only beating the APX. The biggest gripe about the 509 was the difficulty depressing the mag release.

What were the issues with the APX? Do not see much about them, all focus is on the 92 series, so I am curious how they do outside of YouTube reviews.

[Gumby]

My EDC is the px4 in 40, love it!!!

[HCM]

My 9 & 40 FNSs must have been anomalies... Didn't have a single issue including with attached WMLs

The mag dropping and WML issues were the least of the FNS problems. There were instances of FNS discharging in Judy holsters after receiving impacts long before the P320 was a thing.

[iWander]

The mag dropping and WML issues were the least of the FNS problems. There were instances of FNS discharging in Judy holsters after receiving impacts long before the P320 was a thing.

Right. My 9 was an affected gun and was returned to FN. I remember reading about the first one or two and thinking it was holster or user error, but then...
That darn Judy and her holsters randomly going off! [emoji6]

The 320, G19 G5 and M&P 2.0 were the other three we tested. Each was #1 in various categories, and the final results were very close. We decided against the Sig due to the not-a-recall that broke about the same time and the very light trigger.

[jnc36rcpd]

The mag dropping and WML issues were the least of the FNS problems. There were instances of FNS discharging in Judy holsters after receiving impacts long before the P320 was a thing.

I had heard rumors of "uncommanded discharges" of FNS pistols when I was still a real police, including one at the Baltimore County Police Bureau. I thought that had been attributed to a draw string or some other entry into the holstered pistol's trigger guard. After I was retired, an officer on my former department had an "uncommanded discharge" in the locker room. The officer was a gun guy and one theory was that a press check caused the discharge. The agency switched to the Glock 17 shortly thereafter (19's for detectives and a sole 26 for the chief because his ego is too large to carry a larger gun).

[iWander]

What were the issues with the APX? Do not see much about them, all focus is on the 92 series, so I am curious how they do outside of YouTube reviews.Comparatively poor trigger to some of the others, poor ergonomics and aesthetics, hard to depress mag release similar to the 509. I'd have to check my notes, but I think it had a few FTEs as well, while the other five were 100% reliable.

[stinx]

I was at a local shop this weekend and the FN rep was there. The rep stated that the PA State police are adopting the 509. Has anyone else heard this?

[Jason M]

That is the current rumor. There is some credible information that points to another maker doing a specialized version of a common duty pistol for PSP. I don't know that a decision has been reached.

[Trukinjp13]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220228/3aab408b75b67d2176e015b529478a4b.jpg
Still chugging along. Bone stock trigger is damn good on this middy. Exceptionally accurate and reliable. Mag changes are easy and for me works far better than any other button mag release pistol I’ve used. I’d been carrying my 229 a lot lately, but broke this out again. And wondered why I quit carrying it. New optic is inbound for her.

I’m glad they are finally gaining ground, FN screwed the pooch with this one on release.


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[Brianjkeene]

The 3rd revision of the 509 striker that is coming in the LAPD guns and soon to be standard production from what I hear. Don’t know exactly what’s different if it’s even better but here it is. 85176

[SamueL]

I was at a local shop this weekend and the FN rep was there. The rep stated that the PA State police are adopting the 509. Has anyone else heard this?

That's the first I heard this.


That is the current rumor. There is some credible information that points to another maker doing a specialized version of a common duty pistol for PSP. I don't know that a decision has been reached.

A decision has not been reached yet. Anything at this point is rumor and speculation.

[KevH]

I was at a local shop this weekend and the FN rep was there. The rep stated that the PA State police are adopting the 509. Has anyone else heard this?

Nope, it's going to be a Glock.

[SamueL]

Nope, it's going to be a Glock.

That's news to me as well. Where is everyone hearing this? Or was that tongue-in-cheek?

PSP has a contract for Sig P227s through 2024.

[/thread drift]

[stinx]

That's news to me as well. Where is everyone hearing this? Or was that tongue-in-cheek?

PSP has a contract for Sig P227s through 2024.

FN rep told me

[/thread drift]

[L-2]

Regarding Post 61,
Wow, that FN pistol firing pin suggests to me it's quite a piece; almost like a striker-fired-combination-firing-pin-and-"bolt" (thinking of an AR15 bolt).
Not good or bad, just seems complicated.

I either personally chose Glock or was mandated an issued one for primary-duty-carry my entire career, but do appreciate alternatives and departments considering other brands.
I suspect there's good stuff out there if only the other manufacturers (and even Glock w/the supply chain issues) can equal the training, parts, and support logistics.
Even for the consumer-end of Glock's support, I found it one of the few, if not only company, which can provide a new firearm back to its owner within a week, if deemed necessary.
I know Glock isn't perfect, and I think there's room for improvement.

Here's another rumor I heard. There are or were times when Austrian companies (although Glock has a USA manufacturing presence) totally shut down due to Covid (maybe they're shut down as I type for all I don't know). Another thought is perhaps other manufacturers will "up" their warranty/parts/repair support to departments/agencies and that support hopefully will trickle down to the consumer level. I haven't heard much on these forum regarding FN's support abilities/history.

[LockedBreech]

Comparatively poor trigger to some of the others, poor ergonomics and aesthetics, hard to depress mag release similar to the 509. I'd have to check my notes, but I think it had a few FTEs as well, while the other five were 100% reliable.

While mine has been 100% reliable, the rest of the criticisms of the APX are accurate as to my full-size sample. The trigger reset is mushy and feels "slow" for lack of a better word, and the pistol as a whole is pretty clunky. Feels quite top-heavy even loaded. Release is not great while in a shooting grip.

Still the best gun dollar I've ever spent at $324 shipped. Built like a freakin' HK inside, too.

[jnc36rcpd]

I wasn't one of the cool kids in my former department's firearms training program at the time, but FN America did a great job of providing support for my agency when we experienced problems with the FNS-9. They acknowledged the problem and eventually replaced the older style barrels and all the magazines. I felt comfortable enough to carry the weapon off duty and to put the TLR-1 back on when working.

Of course, we had sixty-three sworn positions and probably 70-75 pistols in stock. Hopefully, LAPD won't need the support we did and, if they do (which, sadly, I suspect they might), FN America can step up to their needs.

[psalms144.1]

Regarding Post 61,
I either personally chose Glock or was mandated an issued one for primary-duty-carry my entire career, but do appreciate alternatives and departments considering other brands.
I suspect there's good stuff out there if only the other manufacturers (and even Glock w/the supply chain issues) can equal the training, parts, and support logistics.
Even for the consumer-end of Glock's support, I found it one of the few, if not only company, which can provide a new firearm back to its owner within a week, if deemed necessary.
I know Glock isn't perfect, and I think there's room for improvement.

Here's another rumor I heard. There are or were times when Austrian companies (although Glock has a USA manufacturing presence) totally shut down due to Covid (maybe they're shut down as I type for all I don't know). Another thought is perhaps other manufacturers will "up" their warranty/parts/repair support to departments/agencies and that support hopefully will trickle down to the consumer level. I haven't heard much on these forum regarding FN's support abilities/history.I was talking to a sales rep at one of the largest GLOCK LE distributors in the country, and was told that they have been informed that there will be NO replacement available parts from GLOCK for the next 12-18 months. Allegedly, every single part GLOCK has is being put into production pistols - so I guess the supply chain shenanigans are affecting everyone...

[Brianjkeene]

Just ordered one of the LAPD 509s. Will update when I get it.

[Trukinjp13]

Not a lapd model. But I got a optic to get the 509 back in that dot life. Need to get used to the reticle of the 508t. My astigmatism is playing hell with the dot in this one. Seems very well made and has clear glass. I like the battery tray in it. Chpws plate and 508t is a good pairing. The factory optics cut imho is unmatched so far. (Looks like Walther may have taken a page with their new cuts though). Combine with the factory cut and the one piece chpws its damn nice and a ton of cowitness with factory irons. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/7ba84aa7349ff3dc071978b1a2205fc4.jpg


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[Risto]

Not a lapd model. But I got a optic to get the 509 back in that dot life. Need to get used to the reticle of the 508t. My astigmatism is playing hell with the dot in this one. Seems very well made and has clear glass. I like the battery tray in it. Chpws plate and 508t is a good pairing. The factory optics cut imho is unmatched so far. (Looks like Walther may have taken a page with their new cuts though). Combine with the factory cut and the one piece chpws its damn nice and a ton of cowitness with factory irons.


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Is that the midsize with a beaver tail backstrap? Can’t tell for sure.


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[MandoWookie]

Not a lapd model. But I got a optic to get the 509 back in that dot life. Need to get used to the reticle of the 508t. My astigmatism is playing hell with the dot in this one. Seems very well made and has clear glass. I like the battery tray in it. Chpws plate and 508t is a good pairing. The factory optics cut imho is unmatched so far. (Looks like Walther may have taken a page with their new cuts though). Combine with the factory cut and the one piece chpws its damn nice and a ton of cowitness with factory irons. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220310/7ba84aa7349ff3dc071978b1a2205fc4.jpg


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What about the 509 optics cut makes it better? Never seen an explanation on how it compares to MOS or CORE.

[Trukinjp13]

Is that the midsize with a beaver tail backstrap? Can’t tell for sure.


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I bought the FN beaver tail pack for the midsize. It does have a kind of beaver tail to it. I liked how it filled my hand up better than the standard. This midsize is the most accurate striker pistol I’ve shot. And I was not the only one to think this. It’s for whatever reason a better shooter than two tacticals I’ve shot. And the trigger is a pound lighter than the two I compared it to as well.


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[Trukinjp13]

What about the 509 optics cut makes it better? Never seen an explanation on how it compares to MOS or CORE.

Sage dynamics had a hand in the production of the optics cut setup. Which explains a lot. Basically the slide is not only milled, it’s notched. Which lets the plate sit down into the slide and the way the cut it. It has support for front to back and side to side movement. And they cut out a spot for an o-ring that sits between the plate and the slide. One of the huge problems with most all the factory optics cut is it’s simply a milled down slide or a couple small bosses.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220311/2d65fbacf4e7a659c3ca0485a71655bf.jpg


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[Risto]

I bought the FN beaver tail pack for the midsize. It does have a kind of beaver tail to it. I liked how it filled my hand up better than the standard. This midsize is the most accurate striker pistol I’ve shot. And I was not the only one to think this. It’s for whatever reason a better shooter than two tacticals I’ve shot. And the trigger is a pound lighter than the two I compared it to as well.


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I’m going through the 2k review process now for mine and I agree they are exceptionally accurate. I thought they only made that large grip for the tactical models. I’m going to get one for my midsize now!

[MandoWookie]

Sage dynamics had a hand in the production of the optics cut setup. Which explains a lot. Basically the slide is not only milled, it’s notched. Which lets the plate sit down into the slide and the way the cut it. It has support for front to back and side to side movement. And they cut out a spot for an o-ring that sits between the plate and the slide. One of the huge problems with most all the factory optics cut is it’s simply a milled down slide or a couple small bosses.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220311/2d65fbacf4e7a659c3ca0485a71655bf.jpg


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What does the o-ring do? And is it more difficult to mount to than MOS or a optic specific cut?

So it gives more support for the plate, but not the optic?

[Trukinjp13]

What does the o-ring do? And is it more difficult to mount to than MOS or a optic specific cut?

So it gives more support for the plate, but not the optic?

Mounting is very easy. And the O-ring I think helps as a buffer from the metal to metal and helping get a good seal to the slide.

The optic is further supported from having a plate that will not move. It’s like having a nightforce on a utg mount vs a badger. Having the plate tied into the slide is huge for optic reliability.

And I believe a Acro plate with Acro is probably at the top for a optics system mounting with the mrd. You screw your plate to the slide. Then your optic mounts like a baby pic rail. Rock solid.


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[Trukinjp13]

I’m going through the 2k review process now for mine and I agree they are exceptionally accurate. I thought they only made that large grip for the tactical models. I’m going to get one for my midsize now!

Midwest gun works.


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[MandoWookie]

Mounting is very easy. And the O-ring I think helps as a buffer from the metal to metal and helping get a good seal to the slide.

The optic is further supported from having a plate that will not move. It’s like having a nightforce on a utg mount vs a badger. Having the plate tied into the slide is huge for optic reliability.

And I believe a Acro plate with Acro is probably at the top for a optics system mounting with the mrd. You screw your plate to the slide. Then your optic mounts like a baby pic rail. Rock solid.


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So it's as good as direct milling in regards to support of the optic but retaining modularity?

And I'm hoping the ACRO footprint becomes standard. Just seems like a better idea than relying on tiny screws.

[Trukinjp13]

So it's as good as direct milling in regards to support of the optic but retaining modularity?

And I'm hoping the ACRO footprint becomes standard. Just seems like a better idea than relying on tiny screws.

I’d say it’s damn close. I ran a lot of rounds through the factory dpp setup and had zero problems. The apex Acro plate fit tight and also had zero issues. Interested to see how this chpws plate shakes out.


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[jlw]

The optic mounting has me interested in this pistol.

[Brianjkeene]

For anyone interested, there is a great threat over on the FN forums where a user has about a dozen different combinations between Apex, factory, and ShootingSight striker, trigger, and sear combinations. He has a video showing the amount of pre-travel, creep, and over travel with each. Pretty neat for someone to do since working on these pistols is a bear.

https://www.fnforum.net/threads/509-ls-edge-trigger-configurations.229790/#post-1565346

[KentuckyWindage]

Any updates on the performance of the LE models for the LAPD?

[awmp]

Any updates on the performance of the LE models for the LAPD?

I was curious as well. Still very surprised that LAPD picked this pistol as their new duty pistol.

[Trukinjp13]

Any updates on the performance of the LE models for the LAPD?

No news may be good news lol. Sometimes when we hear multiple stories (p320) it’s never a good thing. Hopefully they are doing what they are supposed to and they have nothing to report back about.

I love my midsize and being able to thread your rmr directly to the slide instead of into the plate is pretty big imo.


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[GJM]

Whenever my wife and I watch Bosch Legacy, I look hard for a FN 509 but haven't seen one yet!

[KentuckyWindage]

No news may be good news lol. Sometimes when we hear multiple stories (p320) it’s never a good thing. Hopefully they are doing what they are supposed to and they have nothing to report back about.

I love my midsize and being able to thread your rmr directly to the slide instead of into the plate is pretty big imo.


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I would tend to believe so as well. I know they are being fielded as a few officer involved shooting videos have shown the 509 with a RMR or another red dot.

[KevH]

I was curious as well. Still very surprised that LAPD picked this pistol as their new duty pistol.

I'm not surprised, LAPD only paid $180 per gun and I'm not convinced FN wouldn't have only charged them $1 per gun if they had pushed the issue, so there is that...

I don't know anyone down at LAPD anymore to ask, but I don't think you are going to hear too much negative about them. They're a typical 9mm modern striker-fired polymer service pistol. I'm sure they are going to work and serve their purpose just fine.

When we went through the armorer's class and evaluated them in early 2022 we found they shot well, but were a bit of a pain at an armorer level to maintain compared to other options like the Glock, S&W M&P, or SIG P320. FN's answer was the gun didn't need any servicing until 20,000 rounds which is far above the average police pistol's service life (not wrong there). I asked the rep about when an officer goes swimming with the pistol (happens more often then you would think) or when it gets soaked in inclement weather and he didn't really have an answer for that. FN supplied LAPD with a special press to disassemble the FN receivers, which your average consumer or smaller department isn't going to have. A Glock can be fully stripped with a 3/32 punch (or a sacrificial Bic pen in a jam). The newer M&P's only require a 3/32 punch and a couple hex wrenches to access the safety plunger under the plate. So to me, the FN 509 is needlessly more complex than these.

LAPD in the past twenty years has issued the Beretta 92FS, Glock 22, Glock 17, S&W M&P, and now the FN 509. Give it a few years and they'll probably switch to something else.

[Clusterfrack]

...When we went through the armorer's class and evaluated them in early 2022 we found they shot well, but were a bit of a pain at an armorer level to maintain compared to other options like the Glock, S&W M&P, or SIG P320. FN's answer was the gun didn't need any servicing until 20,000 rounds which is far above the average police pistol's service life (not wrong there). I asked the rep about when an officer goes swimming with the pistol (happens more often then you would think) or when it gets soaked in inclement weather and he didn't really have an answer for that. FN supplied LAPD with a special press to disassemble the FN receivers, which your average consumer or smaller department isn't going to have. A Glock can be fully stripped with a 3/32 punch (or a sacrificial Bic pen in a jam). The newer M&P's only require a 3/32 punch and a couple hex wrenches to access the safety plunger under the plate. So to me, the FN 509 is needlessly more complex than these.

Thanks for this comparison. The FN 509 sounds like a hard pass for me, and I won't be recommending it to anyone.

[GJM]

Thanks for this comparison. The FN 509 sounds like a hard pass for me, and I won't be recommending it to anyone.

Aaron Cowan, who is on the FN pro staff thinks highly of it, and says it is one of the few pistols you can take out of the box and that has excellent BUIS and optics mounting included. I bought one as a sub caliber trainer for the 510, in 10mm, which is an excellent pistol.

[GlockenSpiel]

Aaron Cowan, who is on the FN pro staff thinks highly of it, and says it is one of the few pistols you can take out of the box and that has excellent BUIS and optics mounting included. I bought one as a sub caliber trainer for the 510, in 10mm, which is an excellent pistol.

I like his drop tests, but regarding the FN guns, the fact they're endorsed by an FN employee doesn't mean anything to me.

[Clusterfrack]

Aaron Cowan, who is on the FN pro staff thinks highly of it, and says it is one of the few pistols you can take out of the box and that has excellent BUIS and optics mounting included. I bought one as a sub caliber trainer for the 510, in 10mm, which is an excellent pistol.

A lot about it sounds good, except for the complex and hard to service part.

[GJM]

A lot about it sounds good, except for the complex and hard to service part.

I think that is correct as compared to a Glock, but not sure compared to other pistols. Perhaps reflecting my lack of mechanical ability, I have my Glock pistols completely apart regularly, but not much with my other pistols and revolvers. That extra complexity compared to a Glock needs to be balanced with a pistol that has appropriate BUIS and an excellent optics mounting system.

I feel like the vast majority of users would be better off not doing detailed disassembly beyond slide, barrel and RSA. Even with Glocks!

[Navin Johnson]

I was curious as well. Still very surprised that LAPD picked this pistol as their new duty pistol.

Total package cost(guns magazines, holsters, ammunition) and 20,000 Rounds without service and future employment on the FN Board of Directors and strippers (whoops wrong plastic pistol)

In today’s world, anybody can make a quality striker pistol and if you can’t, you should be in a different business. The problem is is getting penetration in a very crowded market so getting a prestigious, law-enforcement agency to use your guns is worth it at any cost.

Still, not sure I’ve seen one in a store. May be a Cabela’s.

[Clusterfrack]

I think that is correct as compared to a Glock, but not sure compared to other pistols. Perhaps reflecting my lack of mechanical ability, I have my Glock pistols completely apart regularly, but not much with my other pistols and revolvers. That extra complexity compared to a Glock needs to be balanced with a pistol that has appropriate BUIS and an excellent optics mounting system.

I feel like the vast majority of users would be better off not doing detailed disassembly beyond slide, barrel and RSA. Even with Glocks!

Guns that are designed for simplicity and field maintenance are also easy to diagnose when something goes wrong. It’s a core design principle that I value over most other features, and why I prefer ARs and Glocks to most other designs.

[KevH]

Aaron Cowan, who is on the FN pro staff thinks highly of it

Well, there you go.

I'm not trying to slam the 509. It's a nice shooting striker fired polymer pistol, especially the flat trigger version LAPD bought.

That being said, FN hasn't exactly had a lot of success in the polymer striker-fired trigger realm (see FNS).

What was disappointing was how complex/fragile the components were. I mentioned the press FN is supplying LAPD. There is also this available from Apex:
https://www.apextactical.com/fn509-fns-c-disassembly-block-kit

In my opinion, a 2020's service pistol shouldn't require all this.

I've had officers end up in swimming pools working graveyard, end up in ponds and lakes, and early in my career I myself ended up in a canal rescuing someone that fell in. Every time that happens the gun should be detail stripped, cleaned, dried out, and re-lubed prior to going back in service, whether it's a Glock, 1911, 3rd Gen S&W, P320 or whatever. With the aforementioned guns and our current M&P's it's probably a 15 minute to 25 minute endeavor. Glocks especially are super easy to detail strip as most of you know. The FN? Not so much.

[Polecat]

Well and that other huge striker success of theirs the “Hiper” I wonder whenthey dump that one on the public?

[HCM]

Total package cost(guns magazines, holsters, ammunition) and 20,000 Rounds without service and future employment on the FN Board of Directors and strippers (whoops wrong plastic pistol)

In today’s world, anybody can make a quality striker pistol and if you can’t, you should be in a different business. The problem is is getting penetration in a very crowded market so getting a prestigious, law-enforcement agency to use your guns is worth it at any cost.

Still, not sure I’ve seen one in a store. May be a Cabela’s.

* In today’s world anyone can make a generally functional striker fired pistol.

Consistent quality and durability are another matter.

There’s a reason actual Glocks still sell as fast as Glock can make them and most organizations stick with the big 3 (Glock, SIG, S&W) despite a plethora of foreign and domestic disposable plastic people poppers.

[KentuckyWindage]

I think that is correct as compared to a Glock, but not sure compared to other pistols. Perhaps reflecting my lack of mechanical ability, I have my Glock pistols completely apart regularly, but not much with my other pistols and revolvers. That extra complexity compared to a Glock needs to be balanced with a pistol that has appropriate BUIS and an excellent optics mounting system.

I feel like the vast majority of users would be better off not doing detailed disassembly beyond slide, barrel and RSA. Even with Glocks!


I have to agree with this.

[L-2]

I think worthy of note, I don't believe Los Angeles Police (LAPD) switches all 8.967 sworn gun carriers over each time it switches to a newly-issued firearm make & model.

I believe existing issued firearms are used until someone makes a decision the individual officer's handgun needs replacement, although this could be a thousand officers at a time. I don't know how long the older guns would be kept. I suppose it is possible I'm completely wrong and 8967 handguns (and some spares, leather gear, optics, & maybe lights) will be bought and issued to each officer at a periodic qualification.

This doesn't include any special units with special approvals to carry STI or 1911-type handguns.

I also think some of this depends on how well a Chief can obtain funding for larger weapons buys. Heck, maybe LAPD was able to get enough funding (city council; Federal/state grants; to buy 9000 new guns with supporting accessories. That $180/gun price might be a mere $1.6M and don't know what holsters, mag carriers, optics, and lights might add. I don't know how that $180/gun price details worked as someone mentioned; &/or does that price somehow include trading in old guns.

Training costs on a new handgun with its accessories would also need to be budgeted in somehow, too.

Where I worked all ~600 of us got the Glock 22gen2, then the replacement G22gen3, then the G17gen4. I think that department is still using the G17gen4 guns. Newly issued guns were swapped out at the LEO's next qualification and these quals were 2x/year. Personally-owned guns used on-duty would only be for our backup guns, if any individual wanted to ever carry one.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I've got can elaborate on how LAPD actually works with issued handguns and to what extent personally-owned firearms are allowed and monitored, if any.

[TGS]

I think worthy of note, I don't believe Los Angeles Police (LAPD) switches all 8.967 sworn gun carriers over each time it switches to a newly-issued firearm make & model.

I believe existing issued firearms are used until someone makes a decision the individual officer's handgun needs replacement, although this could be a thousand officers at a time. I don't know how long the older guns would be kept. I suppose it is possible I'm completely wrong and 8967 handguns (and some spares, leather gear, optics, & maybe lights) will be bought and issued to each officer at a periodic qualification.

This doesn't include any special units with special approvals to carry STI or 1911-type handguns.

I also think some of this depends on how well a Chief can obtain funding for larger weapons buys. Heck, maybe LAPD was able to get enough funding (city council; Federal/state grants; to buy 9000 new guns with supporting accessories. That $180/gun price might be a mere $1.6M and don't know what holsters, mag carriers, optics, and lights might add. I don't know how that $180/gun price details worked as someone mentioned; &/or does that price somehow include trading in old guns.

Training costs on a new handgun with its accessories would also need to be budgeted in somehow, too.

Where I worked all ~600 of us got the Glock 22gen2, then the replacement G22gen3, then the G17gen4. I think that department is still using the G17gen4 guns. Newly issued guns were swapped out at the LEO's next qualification and these quals were 2x/year. Personally-owned guns used on-duty would only be for our backup guns, if any individual wanted to ever carry one.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I've got can elaborate on how LAPD actually works with issued handguns and to what extent personally-owned firearms are allowed and monitored, if any.

This has already been covered numerous times in multiple threads, including earlier in this one on the very first page.

Yes, what you wrote appears to be the case.

[John Hearne]

FN supplied LAPD with a special press to disassemble the FN receivers, which your average consumer or smaller department isn't going to have. A Glock can be fully stripped with a 3/32 punch (or a sacrificial Bic pen in a jam). The newer M&P's only require a 3/32 punch and a couple hex wrenches to access the safety plunger under the plate. So to me, the FN 509 is needlessly more complex than these.

This can't be emphasized enough. I maintained classic Sigs for a bunch of year. I LOVE the P320's modularity. I can disassemble almost every thing and chunk it in an ultrasonic. Pull it out, blow it off, relube and rock on in almost no time.

[Trukinjp13]

Is it easy as a Glock? No. What pistol is?

The 509 is not hard to take apart. Trigger group is simple to pull and reinstall. (Apex tool)Think some are being a wee bit dramatic here. I’ve had multiples and still own the midsize. Which has been great.

Can we please cut the shit about their history of striker pistols? They built the Fns, realized it was not up to par and moved on. 509 has been out since like early 2017 now. They’ve continuously added new models in the duty and in the competition realm. Also now have large bore models. You can plug and play slides as you want across the platform. Support slowly is growing as well in the aftermarket. Im not leg humping the thing, just stating facts


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[HCM]

This has already been covered numerous times in multiple threads, including earlier in this one on the very first page.

Yes, what you wrote appears to be the case.

This ^^^.

As detailed previously (multiple times) LAPD doesn’t switch the whole department when they switch “issued” guns.

The 509 is only issued to new officers going through the Academy so no significant training costs.

In service officers remain with the gun they went through the Academy with unless they want to spend their own money for one of the other options and associated support gear.

As such are no trade in guns.

I asked a retired LAPD buddy about the 509:

No real issues with the 509s.

Not much interest from in service officers re: switching to the 509.

Most in service officers looking to switch guns at their own expense are going Stacatto.

[HCM]

Is it easy as a Glock? No. What pistol is?

The 509 is not hard to take apart. Trigger group is simple to pull and reinstall. (Apex tool)Think some are being a wee bit dramatic here. I’ve had multiples and still own the midsize. Which has been great.

Can we please cut the shit about their history of striker pistols? They built the Fns, realized it was not up to par and moved on. 509 has been out since like early 2017 now. They’ve continuously added new models in the duty and in the competition realm. Also now have large bore models. You can plug and play slides as you want across the platform. Support slowly is growing as well in the aftermarket. Im not leg humping the thing, just stating facts


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How many times have you been in a body of water, a swimming pool or been covered in mud, bodily fluids (or human waste) while open carrying your 509 ?

Just because something is not a requirement for your uses doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing for someone else. This thread is about the use of the 509 as an LE duty pistol. At the institutional level things that can be insignificant for individuals can be problematic when scaled up.

A non commercial version of the 509 passed my agency’s testing. I’m convinced the 509 is durable and reliable but there’s more to suitability as an issued gun for a large organization than just “shoots good.”

FN made a whole series of shitty polymer guns (FNP, FNX and FNS) prior to getting serious and treating their pistols like they treat their other small arms resulting in the 509. It’s not just the one bad model.

You can regard that as (well deserved) bashing of FN’s half assed prior efforts or as an acknowledgment of the contrast between what it took to produce the 509 vs their prior polymer pistols.

Unfortunately there is some sort of cognitive dissonance where people don’t have the headspace for the idea that certain manufacturers have some products that are great and some that are not.

This is not unique to FN. Trijicon optics and service sized Glocks vs slim line Glocks are other examples.

The haters will seize on the bad models to claim all the companies products are deficient, and the fanboys will deny the bad products are deficient based on the products which are actually good.

[TGS]

Is it easy as a Glock? No. What pistol is?


From my observation, almost any pistol using a standard "pull back slide to the notch and pop out the slide stop lever" is easier to disassemble for the average LEO than the Glock.

I've seen a disturbing amount of LEOs who cannot easily disassemble a Glock...I'd say it's one of the harder pistols to disassemble for many LEOs. Either they pull the slide too far back because they can't grasp the concept since there's no visual indicator like the disassembly notch in the slide for the slide stop lever on a P320, HK P2000, etc, or in the case of those with small hands they often have trouble pulling back to slide while manipulating the little slide lock buttons on each side simultaneously.

It's stuff like this that makes me disappointed in humanity, but at the same time it's somewhat understandable since the average LEO is not a gun hobbyist and the gun is no different to them as a tool than their radio, and the majority of LEOs aren't ham radio enthusiasts either that spend their weekends climbing mountains to play geolocating easter-egg games with mtnbkr.

[mtnbkr]

...spend their weekends climbing mountains to play geolocating easter-egg games with mtnbkr.

Don't kink shame. :D

Chris

[Trukinjp13]

How many times have you been in a body of water, a swimming pool or been covered in mud, bodily fluids (or human waste) while open carrying your 509 ?

Just because something is not a requirement for your uses doesn’t mean it’s not a real thing for someone else. This thread is about the use of the 509 as an LE duty pistol. At the institutional level things that can be insignificant for individuals can be problematic when scaled up.

A non commercial version of the 509 passed my agency’s testing. I’m convinced the 509 is durable and reliable but there’s more to suitability as an issued gun for a large organization than just “shoots good.”

FN made a whole series of shitty polymer guns (FNP, FNX and FNS) prior to getting serious and treating their pistols like they treat their other small arms resulting in the 509. It’s not just the one bad model.

You can regard that as (well deserved) bashing of FN’s half assed prior efforts or as an acknowledgment of the contrast between what it took to produce the 509 vs their prior polymer pistols.

Unfortunately there is some sort of cognitive dissonance where people don’t have the headspace for the idea that certain manufacturers have some products that are great and some that are not.

This is not unique to FN. Trijicon optics and service sized Glocks vs slim line Glocks are other examples.

The haters will seize on the bad models to claim all the companies products are deficient, and the fanboys will deny the bad products are deficient based on the products which are actually good.

My response was specific to their other striker pistol. Not the hammer fired series.

And no I have not bled all over my pistol or intentionally threw it in the mud and stomped on it to see if it will work. It’s been muddy/sandy, through a lake when I got one of my dogs out and survived winters here. I do not have the capability to test it like mil/Leo does. I am just trying to respond to people who insult the pistol and have no real experience with them.

Honestly I don’t know why I even commented, seems pointless to offer any experience with certain things on this place anymore.


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[jh9]

who insult the pistol and have no real experience with them.

It's an inanimate object, it can't be insulted.

First hand experience with the model is useful, but context is important. Institutional users have different needs, and expose the weapon to different potential failure modes than individuals do. Critique of the 509's complexity is perfectly valid here, even if it isn't particularly meaningful to an individual user.

[KevH]

I think worthy of note, I don't believe Los Angeles Police (LAPD) switches all 8.967 sworn gun carriers over each time it switches to a newly-issued firearm make & model.

I believe existing issued firearms are used until someone makes a decision the individual officer's handgun needs replacement, although this could be a thousand officers at a time. I don't know how long the older guns would be kept. I suppose it is possible I'm completely wrong and 8967 handguns (and some spares, leather gear, optics, & maybe lights) will be bought and issued to each officer at a periodic qualification.

This doesn't include any special units with special approvals to carry STI or 1911-type handguns.

I also think some of this depends on how well a Chief can obtain funding for larger weapons buys. Heck, maybe LAPD was able to get enough funding (city council; Federal/state grants; to buy 9000 new guns with supporting accessories. That $180/gun price might be a mere $1.6M and don't know what holsters, mag carriers, optics, and lights might add. I don't know how that $180/gun price details worked as someone mentioned; &/or does that price somehow include trading in old guns.

Training costs on a new handgun with its accessories would also need to be budgeted in somehow, too.

Where I worked all ~600 of us got the Glock 22gen2, then the replacement G22gen3, then the G17gen4. I think that department is still using the G17gen4 guns. Newly issued guns were swapped out at the LEO's next qualification and these quals were 2x/year. Personally-owned guns used on-duty would only be for our backup guns, if any individual wanted to ever carry one.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than I've got can elaborate on how LAPD actually works with issued handguns and to what extent personally-owned firearms are allowed and monitored, if any.

LAPD doesn't cycle out old guns. For the most part you can tell when a cop was hired based on the gun (without looking at service stripes). The gun you were issued in the academy is the gun you have your whole career unless you chose to buy one of the other approved guns.

For a long time, cops that started in the 1990's were easily identifiable by their Beretta 92FS or the optional S&W 3rd Gen guns. The Glock era guys had Glocks and the M&P era guys had M&Ps. They recently (past five or six years) started a "DA/SA" transition course and believe it or not younger guys were buying up S&W 4566, 4506-1's, and 5906's to carry on duty. Why? Cultural dynamic in the department.

The "it gun" in most of California LE right now is the Staccato. It's no different up here in the SF Bay Area.

So new officers are issued FN 509's, with it being "optional" for private purchase by tenured officers.

Trukinjp13

I don't think the FN 509 is a bad gun. Quite the contrary, I think it shoots really nicely and it is just as easy to field strip as anything else.

What is a pain in the butt is maintaining the gun as a department armorer. I can't tell you how many times in the past twenty years I have had either a gun brought to me full of fluid/yuck and need to be details stripped or brought to me in a plastic bag in pieces by an officer. For the yuck (water, sewage, blood, way too much oil, etc.) it is usually imperative that I detail strip and clean the gun "right now" so the guy can get back out on the street and finish his shift. For the plastic bag gun it's typically thirty minutes before beginning of shift (because he's not going to come in on his day off right?) so time is also of the essence.

Being able to fully detail strip a gun quickly is important and a LE armorer level. To me that is where the 509 falls short.

[TheNewbie]

Does LAPD still allow officers to switch to TDA guns (Beretta, 3rd Gen) if they take the transition course?


I read an article, within the last decade. maybe even less, about two LAPD guys still carrying revolvers. They had been partners since the late 80s.

[KevH]

Does LAPD still allow officers to switch to TDA guns (Beretta, 3rd Gen) if they take the transition course?


I read an article, within the last decade. maybe even less, about two LAPD guys still carrying revolvers. They had been partners since the late 80s.

Yes

[ragnar_d]

FN supplied LAPD with a special press to disassemble the FN receivers, which your average consumer or smaller department isn't going to have.
Having had to take an FN down to component parts and then reassemble it . . . I'd have killed for that press/fixture.


Aaron Cowan, who is on the FN pro staff thinks highly of it, and says it is one of the few pistols you can take out of the box and that has excellent BUIS and optics mounting included. I bought one as a sub caliber trainer for the 510, in 10mm, which is an excellent pistol.
The FN optic mounting setup is pretty good, especially compared to some other factory optics solutions in the industry. There were a couple gun engineers in my circle who spoke pretty highly of it.

[FNFAN]

Does LAPD still allow officers to switch to TDA guns (Beretta, 3rd Gen) if they take the transition course?


I read an article, within the last decade. maybe even less, about two LAPD guys still carrying revolvers. They had been partners since the late 80s.

I just saw a video of a NYPD white shirt with a J-Frame working an off-road vehicle suppression point. It definitely happens!

[DMF13]

I read an article, within the last decade. maybe even less, about two LAPD guys still carrying revolvers. They had been partners since the late 80s.
Was it these two:
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0083486/mediaviewer/rm1102828545

[TheNewbie]

Was it these two:
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0083486/mediaviewer/rm1102828545

Can’t remember the name of the second guy, but one was named Malloy.

[HCM]

I just saw a video of a NYPD white shirt with a J-Frame working an off-road vehicle suppression point. It definitely happens!

I have no doubt it happened, but whether it should have happened is another matter.

Putting aside the fact NYPD and LAPD are at opposite ends of the spectrum on nearly everything gun related….

NYPD forced the last 100 or so officers who carried revolvers as primary duty guns to switch to autos back in 2018.

AFAIK J frames are now only authorized for off duty and BUG use but I’ll ask.

[HCM]

Can’t remember the name of the second guy, but one was named Malloy.

These guys ?

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-lapd-partners-20171104-story.html

[DMF13]

Can’t remember the name of the second guy, but one was named Malloy.

So these guys: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0062539/mediaviewer/rm1889805568?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

(I'm old enough to have watched TJ Hooker in it's original run, and to have seen Adam-12 in syndication.)

[TheNewbie]

So these guys: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0062539/mediaviewer/rm1889805568?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

(I'm old enough to have watched TJ Hooker in it's original run, and to have seen Adam-12 in syndication.)


Adam 12 is my favorite cop show.



HCM


Those are the two guys. I wonder if there are any guys at LAPD or LASD that still carry revolvers.

[GJM]

How hard is the 509 to disassemble and reassemble using the Apex kit?

https://www.apextactical.com/fn509-fns-c-disassembly-block-kit

[HCM]

So these guys: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0062539/mediaviewer/rm1889805568?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

(I'm old enough to have watched TJ Hooker in it's original run, and to have seen Adam-12 in syndication.)


https://youtu.be/JC9bB_nP8bA?si=M4I4g5RVLF67K9Lm

[Kanye Wyoming]

How hard is the 509 to disassemble and reassemble using the Apex kit?

https://www.apextactical.com/fn509-fns-c-disassembly-block-kit
Not hard, you just have to pay careful attention to put the right pins in the right slots.

[KevH]

How hard is the 509 to disassemble and reassemble using the Apex kit?

https://www.apextactical.com/fn509-fns-c-disassembly-block-kit

Way harder than it should be.

Apparently, FN's original thought was that the frame/receiver shouldn't be end user serviceable. The locking block pin is pressed in at the factory and is really designed to be removed with a special extension on an arbor press or hydraulic press and not a punch. It's in there so damn tight that people were destroying their frames (which are the actual serialized piece, unlike a SIG) in the process of trying to remove and reinstall it.

The Apex jig is supposed to center the end user's punch over the stupid pin so even if you're beating on it with Thor's hammer (which you will need) it doesn't slip and you end up killing your frame.

When we did the armorer's class the guy brought some special "loosened up" guns (like typical armorer training pistols) and they were still a bitch. We had to take them outside and put them on cement because we were going to kill the standard classroom folding tables we were using.

One of our officers brought his personal 509 and the instructor, even with the Apex jig and beating on it, couldn't get the pin out and gave up because he was afraid he was going to damage the gun.

It was at this point that I think he could see by our expressions and demeanor that none of us in the class were still interested in purchasing the 509 for our department.

[KevH]

....keep in mind I can fully detail strip a Glock of any generation with a 3/32 punch (or a sacrificial Bic pen) in about 3 minutes or under.

No hammer, no special jigs, and I don't even really need a hard surface.

The Glock has been in service for decades with militaries and police around the world and the LE price is right at about $400 with every accessory you can think of...and they just plain work.

So what does the FN 509 offer over the Glock? A neat optic mounting system? How many times does a LE agency change optics?

LAPD went with the Aimpoint Acro which requires a plate any way. Hell, departments can buy a Glock direct milled for the Acro from the factory (like we bought our M&P's).

Like I've said previously, the 509 is unnecessarily complex for a modern striker fired service pistol which makes in a less than ideal pistol for agency issue for most departments.

[Texaspoff]

We got to T&E one of the LAPD guns a while back and it was fine. Nothing outstanding, the trigger was ok, sights were ok, ergos were ok, accuracy was ok. There are worse out there, but nothing about it jumped out at me. It's seemed liked a decent enough duty pistol, but didn't make we want to dump my current duty, or even add one to the lineup.




TXPO

[Brianjkeene]

Looks like another department pickup for the 509.

https://cbs12.com/news/local/indian-river-county-sheriffs-deputy-injured-after-gun-fires-on-its-own-department-replaces-all-handguns

[Polecat]

What ever happend with the “Hiper,” I think there are a few pics and one or two videos, the nada?

[KentuckyWindage]

Looks like another department pickup for the 509.

https://cbs12.com/news/local/indian-river-county-sheriffs-deputy-injured-after-gun-fires-on-its-own-department-replaces-all-handguns

Good on them, how many more accidents will happen with the 320 before it’s recalled again?

[KentuckyWindage]

What ever happend with the “Hiper,” I think there are a few pics and one or two videos, the nada?

Not available in the US.

[Tokarev]

Good on them, how many more accidents will happen with the 320 before it’s recalled again?Or what happens when an officer has an AD with the 509? Who will take the blame here?

When someone has an AD with a Glock it is seen as a training issue. When someone has an AD with a 320 it is a mechanical failure.

We still don't know what's actually going on here. We've got lots of probabilities and talk of weak springs, dirty guns or issues with tolerances but nothing so far as been replicated in a testing environment from what we've seen.

With all that said I'm on record saying SIG should have done an outright recall instead of the voluntary upgrade. It is hard to say if that would have changed anything or not. But it certainly wouldn't have made anything worse.

I have a couple 320s but I am not shooting them presently. One because I have guns I enjoy shooting more. Two because I'm tired of "don't shoot yourself" every time I'm at the range. Three because I don't want to shoot myself....


Happy Friday!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Good on them, how many more accidents will happen with the 320 before it’s recalled again?

FN finally got serious about pistols with the 509 in hopes of getting the U.S. Military MHS contract. I'm confident the 509 is GTG (they passed my Agency's last round of testing but didn't get the contract), however, you are aware FN's prior striker fired duty gun, the FN FNS had a history of going off in holsters after impacts with agencies in both Maryland and Arizona.

The FNS had other problems which have been well documented here by some of those issued them.

[Sensei]

I have a couple 320s but I am not shooting them presently. One because I have guns I enjoy shooting more. Two because I'm tired of "don't shoot yourself" every time I'm at the range…

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