The Mountain Gun S&W should have built

[Lost River]

Friends,

A buddy shipped out a couple of his handguns for me to use for load development. He also gave permission to carry them as I wished, though that will be on a somewhat limited scale as they are irreplaceable as far as I am concerned. One is an S&W .41 Magnum N Frame and the subject here, as it is precisely what I have contemplated building a great many times in my mind, only chambered for a different cartridge.

Anyways, my friend Bob shipped this out, just saying he was shipping a .41 out.


https://i.imgur.com/3eTIvHk.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/OmLUWRc.jpg?1

Needless to say I was pretty excited, even if it is just on loan!

Note the barrel says S&W .357 Magnum. That is because it is a 27-2.

This started life as a standard 27-2. Apparently it was in fairly rough shape, and you can see a few rough spots on it, making is absolutely perfect for a conversion, then for field use. I personally love guns like this. A bit of rust on it, some scuffs here and there. All of which will clean up. It is not a collector's gun, and you won't mind carrying it hunting, camping, fishing, etc.

This one had its 5" barrel rebored by JES, and Bob's gunsmith fitted a Model 28 cylinder to the gun, cut the shank back and forcing cone, then re-blued it.


https://i.imgur.com/kt5jc81.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/LzTjw1z.jpg?1

I have long thought that the 5" is the sweet spot for N Frames for the way they balance, as well as the shootability characteristics of them. While I love my 5" 29-2, I always wanted to build a 5" "Mountain Gun" which is basically what this is. This tapered barrel, which is what Smith used on many of their old guns balances very nicely. Truly a shame they went away from it.

This 5" Smith is what the factory should be offering, in cartridges such as .357, .41, 44 Special, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt.

Smith did actually offer what I would consider the ideal version. A 5" skinny barrel, just like what is shown above. It was chambered in .44 Special. It was the 1950 Target Model, though there were just a few built. I have no idea about the numbers and have never seen one in the wild.

Anyways, thought I would share pics of this seriously cool old 5" Mountain Gun. :cool:

Cheers!

[SCCY Marshal]

If you play around with Starline's 41 Special brass, would you mind sharing load development? The component shortage still has my brass on indefinite standby.

And I even love the plowhandle Goodyears on that thing. Asuch as I love my 6" 57, that with the shorter tube to make sitting easier and skinny trigger has my full interest.

[Lost River]

If you play around with Starline's 41 Special brass, would you mind sharing load development? The component shortage still has my brass on indefinite standby.

And I even love the plowhandle Goodyears on that thing. Asuch as I love my 6" 57, that with the shorter tube to make sitting easier and skinny trigger has my full interest.

Funny you mention .41 Special.

I have 2K pieces of Special brass coming and will be doing up some loads for that in the near future.

I plan on running a 215 SWC for the Special and a (when I can get the Mag brass) 240 Keith SWC for the Mag.

My friend has been loading .41 Mag for decades and I consider him an SME on all things related to loading .41s and .38 Super. I actually call him "Mr. 38 Super". So I will use some of his data to start with.

The other gun he sent out is an old Colt Combat Commander .38 Super that was his carry gun for years. 1950s era as I recall. Nice old piece. He really wants me to load both .41 and .38 S for commercial sales and I told him (and others) that I can't/won't load something that I have not thoroughly vetted, so I have to have guns chambered for those cartridges. That is how I ended up being sent the toys.

Another gent that has picked up a good bit of ammo, after doing so offered to send me one of his .41s if I would load for it, and others have asked as well, so I figured I had better start doing so. "If you build it, they will come!"

:cool:

Those old Camo Pachs feel great, and I like the look for an 80s era gun.

[Borderland]

Still waiting for a 4" 44 Special from S&W. I might even buy one even though I've said I swore off of S&W's with a lock. I'd probably just sell my 625 because I would have no use for it with a 44 Spl.

Hell, S&W even discontinued the 625.

41 Special? Never knew it existed until just now. I guess people are going to create what they want, like the 45 Cowboy Special, regardless of the dip shit gun mfr's bean counters.

I think it's great that you can help people with the custom ammo.

[BN]

He really wants me to load both .41 and .38 S for commercial sales and I told him (and others) that I can't/won't load something that I have not thoroughly vetted, so I have to have guns chambered for those cartridges. That is how I ended up being sent the toys.


I have a 686 chambered in 38 Super that I shot in IDPA and USPSA for a while before they both changed some rules. I was loading heavy bullets to 168-170 power factor for major. I found some loads that were published in valid manuals. Message me if you are interested in the load data.

[Rick R]

That is a neat revolver, right in the Goldilocks zone for barrel length.

There is a pinned thread on the .41 Mag & Spl over on the Castboolits forum. I’ve banned myself from reading it because I don’t need another caliber to load.
I don’t need another caliber.
I don’t need…

[jh9]

I have a 686 chambered in 38 Super that I shot in IDPA and USPSA for a while before they both changed some rules. I was loading heavy bullets to 168-170 power factor for major. I found some loads that were published in valid manuals. Message me if you are interested in the load data.

I seem to recall a 6-shot 686 that had been rechambered to .41 special as a wildcat endeavor that seemed like it made a lot of sense at the time.

Isn't the .38 super case slightly wider than .38/357? I wonder if that would still work with the 7-shot cylinder.

[BN]

Isn't the .38 super case slightly wider than .38/357? I wonder if that would still work with the 7-shot cylinder.

There's a little difference but not much. I was shooting .357 bullets in my Super.

[Borderland]

If you play around with Starline's 41 Special brass, would you mind sharing load development? The component shortage still has my brass on indefinite standby.

And I even love the plowhandle Goodyears on that thing. Asuch as I love my 6" 57, that with the shorter tube to make sitting easier and skinny trigger has my full interest.

Starline is showing 41 Spl. brass as being available now. Don't know what their actual situation is but I know they're shipping some 44 Spl. brass. I just got some yesterday.

[OlongJohnson]

Those old Camo Pachs feel great, and I like the look for an 80s era gun.

I got rid of my N frames, but I have an old black Pachy grip sitting around just in case. I dig the Harlequin look, too.

Kinda wish Hogue would do some no-finger-groove GP stocks in their Ghillie Green. That stuff looks really nice against stainless.

[03RN]

I need a .45 mountain gun

[Oldherkpilot]

Couldn't agree more about the 5" N frame being ideal. I was a Skeeter Skelton fan in my youth and he favored that barrel.

[Brian T]

I like my factory 5" 27-2 OK. It just doesnt do much for me as I prefer the K-frame.

That said, I do agree, a 5" .41mag would be really nice.

[mmc45414]

I personally love guns like this. A bit of rust on it, some scuffs here and there. All of which will clean up. It is not a collector's gun, and you won't mind carrying it hunting, camping, fishing, etc.
I am getting to the point where I do not want to be in possession of perfect things, I do not want to be the custodian of it when it gets a flaw. :cool:

[CJK]

Funny you mention .41 Special.

I have 2K pieces of Special brass coming and will be doing up some loads for that in the near future.

I plan on running a 215 SWC for the Special and a (when I can get the Mag brass) 240 Keith SWC for the Mag.

My friend has been loading .41 Mag for decades and I consider him an SME on all things related to loading .41s and .38 Super. I actually call him "Mr. 38 Super". So I will use some of his data to start with.

The other gun he sent out is an old Colt Combat Commander .38 Super that was his carry gun for years. 1950s era as I recall. Nice old piece. He really wants me to load both .41 and .38 S for commercial sales and I told him (and others) that I can't/won't load something that I have not thoroughly vetted, so I have to have guns chambered for those cartridges. That is how I ended up being sent the toys.

Another gent that has picked up a good bit of ammo, after doing so offered to send me one of his .41s if I would load for it, and others have asked as well, so I figured I had better start doing so. "If you build it, they will come!"

:cool:

Those old Camo Pachs feel great, and I like the look for an 80s era gun.Very interested in .38 Super info! I'm working with that caliber now.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

[Borderland]

I need a .45 mountain gun

You and a lot of other people. Prices are just stupid on the auction sites.

[ECVMatt]

I have two, 27-2 5", one for me and one for my son. We were just shooting it today along with my 624. I really do love the 5" barrel and agree it hits the sweet spot for me. While the N frame is large for a .357 they shoot so sweet I will gladly workout a bit more to compensate for the weight. Here is a pic from today. We were shooting the heavy weights today, .357, .44 Spl, .45 ACP and our G3 rifle. I would love for Smith to take your suggestion and bring back some classic looking 5" guns. I could definitely use a 5" .45 Colt.

82967

[jtcarm]

The .41 Special could be built on the L-frame, too.

[Lost River]

I am getting to the point where I do not want to be in possession of perfect things, I do not want to be the custodian of it when it gets a flaw. :cool:

I built what I considered a perfect Model 29. A 5" -2 that was and is awesome. I promptly started carrying it in the field and knocked enough of the new and shiny off of it that I would not feel bad if it received a few battle scars during hunting/camping/hiking trips.

I consider them "story marks". :cool:

https://i.imgur.com/DGlVTg3.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/9C0Ysfu.jpg

[Lost River]

I got rid of my N frames, but I have an old black Pachy grip sitting around just in case. I dig the Harlequin look, too.

Kinda wish Hogue would do some no-finger-groove GP stocks in their Ghillie Green. That stuff looks really nice against stainless.

I actually stole the Pachmayer grips that are shown on it off of my 4" 629:

https://i.imgur.com/RsmuEBP.jpg

The grips that came on the 5" .41 Mag were a truly gorgeous set of wooden ones that according to Bob were built by a member from the S&W forum (I don't know the name). In discussion with him he stated however that they did not fit his hand due to being slightly too large. They did fit my hand quite nicely, so I put them on my old 4" 29-2 that has worn a pair of fancy Herrret's Ropers for many years.

These are the grips that I took off Bob's .41 and put on my 4" 29:







https://i.imgur.com/d0MiWhL.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/pYsc9Aa.jpg?1


Bob has always admired the fancy Ropers, so they are going to be shipped to him. Here they are on the 4" gun on top of a true GEM of a gift from Bob. More on that in a bit.

https://i.imgur.com/i5wy7bF.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/bOLbvtr.jpg

[mmc45414]

I am getting to the point where I do not want to be in possession of perfect things

I consider them "story marks". :cool:
The only professionally customized gun I have is a SP101 that went to Gemini. I think in my subconscious mind I have not taken very good care of it because I want to diminish the resale value enough that I will never be tempted to sell it. :p

82979

[JAH 3rd]

Well this thread has ripped the skin off a previously healed wound. Use to have a blued Model 57 in 41 magnum. Six inch barrel and looked exactly like the model 29 44 magnum. I liked the idea of a bit more metal in the cylinder/barrel area due to its caliber.

I had a model 27, nickel, 8 3/8" barrel. Target hammer/trigger. Presentation case. It was the bomb.

Well let me go to the corner of a dark room and bounce my head off the wall for letting these two get away.

[Lost River]

On May 24 1977 Bob graduated the police academy in Dallas Texas. That evening there was a graduation function, but there was also a function that Elmer Keith was going to be attending, and Bob was a big fan, so he skipped out on the police academy's evening festivities to attend the other event.

Most do not know it, but before Elmer Keith wrote "Hell, I was There", he wrote a separate autobiography entitled "Keith, an Autobiography". Bob purchased a copy and that evening in May of 1977 Elmer Keith signed the book for Bob:

https://i.imgur.com/I1lAiLl.jpg?2




https://i.imgur.com/3nU0Srg.jpg?1



Bob has come out to visit me (he lives on the east coast) a couple times, and I have taken him around Elmer's territory, including Horse Heaven Pass on the Pahsimeroi (Keith has written of the area), where we did some long-range lobbing of lead with .41s and .44s.




https://i.imgur.com/LgOq9mr.jpg

Plus shooting on a dry reservoir bed out to 500 yards:

https://i.imgur.com/mu7XTp2.jpg


A few years back, Bob ended up sending the Keith autobiography out to me as a gift, stating that it seemed appropriate that it should end up in the country where it started.

https://i.imgur.com/i5wy7bF.jpg?1

Needless to say, it is one of my most personally valued books.

[Dave Williams]

I hung out with Bob and his crew a bit at the NTI one year. 38 Super devotee.

[wvincent]

This thread is awesome. We went from the technical advantages of a 5" to Uncle Lost River story time, which is always great.
I'm lucky enough (in my opinion) to own a 57-5 Mountain Gun. I've often wondered how it would be with a 5" tube on it.

It's actually one of the most versatile guns I own. I usually keep it loaded with .41 Special that I sourced from Reed's, and a reload of .41 Mag. I have a field holster, and a nice about town holster that conceal very well under a winter coat.
82988

And a JRC IWB for when I need to be really presentable.
82989

And when I'm going to be really, really rural, like two hours from anything on a rough two-track, or a couple of hours deep into the Black Hills of South Dakota, I usually grab it's "companion piece", my 1895 Winchester in 30-40.
82991

If I'm carrying a pack, or fishing a stream, I have a "tanker style" Simply Rugged chest holster that was so kindly gifted to me by our very own flyrodr.
82992

So, one revolver, 4 holsters, and I can pretty much go anywhere, do anything, except maybe a nude beach.

[JonInWA]

Man, you guys are really steering me on a dangerous course....

https://ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1768.html

https://ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1770.html

Best, Jon

[Lost River]

WVincent,

That is a superb setup, levergun an all. Hard not to smile when you look at all of that! :cool:

[03RN]

Those are definitely 2 guns to ride the river with

[Lost River]

That Lipseys GP100 5" 5 shot .44 special is really something pretty cool.

I had noticed them before but did not really read the specs. I just did and realized that the .44 Special, being a larger bore, weighs less than the .357. Lipseys GP. It also weighs less than the 5" 41 Mag "Mountain gun I am playing with! That would make for a dang cool trail gun.

[JWintergreen]

S&W really should give the Mountain Gun concept another try.

As far as what they should have done, I would have liked to have seen the following.

627 (Could also be called a 628) Mountain Gun
-Brushed Finish
-8 Round Cylinder
-Obvious Tapered Barrel
-3.5" and 5" Barrel Lengths

Three inch, and Five or Six inch, 686 Mountain Guns

Also, instead of going the .41 Special route, it would make more far more sense to finally give the .401 PowerMag a chance. A six shot .401 L frame would be an incredibly size efficient offering. It would offer more power than a .41 Special, and would have slightly more meat between the chambers. Lighter defensive loads could be offered that would cover anything a .41 Special could do. Something like this is really what the gun writers of the 50s were looking for, and it would still be great today.

https://www.gunblast.com/Fryxell_Herters401.htm

[camsdaddy]

Excuse the ignorance of a flat lander. I assume a mountain gun is a handgun in a caliber large enough to shoot something that may be trying to eat you yet is small enough to carry.

[JonInWA]

Excuse the ignorance of a flat lander. I assume a mountain gun is a handgun in a caliber large enough to shoot something that may be trying to eat you yet is small enough to carry.

More like light enough to carry; more likely than not the Mountain Guns I've seen are generally 4" lightened/thin barrel guns.

Best, Jon

[Rick R]

Man, you guys are really steering me on a dangerous course....

https://ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1768.html

https://ruger.com/products/gp100/specSheets/1770.html

Best, Jon

One Ohio gun shop had a 5” GP100 in 10mm last year. I’m now wishing I had explored importing it to WV.

[BN]

About the same time that S&W made the 38 Super 686 they also made a 6 shot L Frame in 40 S&W. They didn't make a lot of them.

[wvincent]

More like light enough to carry; more likely than not the Mountain Guns I've seen are generally 4" lightened/thin barrel guns.

Best, Jon

Also, I believe the following to be more or less true of the Mountain Guns:
Black powder bevel on leading edge of cylinder
Smooth, non-serrated trigger
Combat style hammer
Sights is where it tends to run off the rails, I have seen them with black front and rear, black rear with red ramp, and white outline rear with red ramp front.
Always a round butt.

[wvincent]

WVincent,

That is a superb setup, levergun an all. Hard not to smile when you look at all of that! :cool:

Thanks.
When ever I load up the whole deal I find myself smiling like a kid stealing warm cookies.

Looking forward to your load development, especially the .41 Special side.
I could send you some of my brass as I don't reload. All once fired.

[OlongJohnson]

That Lipseys GP100 5" 5 shot .44 special is really something pretty cool.

I had noticed them before but did not really read the specs. I just did and realized that the .44 Special, being a larger bore, weighs less than the .357. Lipseys GP. It also weighs less than the 5" 41 Mag "Mountain gun I am playing with! That would make for a dang cool trail gun.

I had a Lipsey's .357 that sat around waiting to get slicked up for several years. Finally took it out of the safe and handled it along with my GP MC. Realized that it would never be the gun I wanted it to be without a refinish to touch up all the rough edges that would have to be smoothed. And the front sight was floating high enough over the barrel that I'd never be happy with it. Would take either a custom sight with a custom dovetail or a new barrel to fix that. All in, it would have cost enough in custom work to get to the point of being the gun I'd imagined it being that I would have been better off just getting an MR73. It was a good time to sell the Ruger, it turned out. Still not sure what to do about an MR73, given Caleb's experience with his. Just getting by with a really nice MC for now.

[SCCY Marshal]

...S&W...also made a 6 shot L Frame in 40 S&W...

I still think one of those would be pretty fun to play with. See how it would group 155 grain SWC over Trailboss for fun and chicken coop vermin, a 200 grain flat point over something more substantial just because, and cook up a standard velocity 180 grain LFN or even SWC load with a wide meplat and soft alloy for general use.

[entropy]

This is another thread destined for greatness....lol

Heading north for the first time since November next week. You’ve all enthused me to the point of putting the M28 on the list of things to bring. It’s not a big bore, but the Porcupine Mountains aren’t really mountains either, the bears are sleeping, and .357 should be adequate. 😁

I still kick myself in the @$$ for not picking up one of the 5” full lug .44spl GPs when Lipsey’s had them. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. I like the GP sized frame better than the N, and for the critters I may run across locally, 5 shots are plenty.

[Rex G]

Excuse the ignorance of a flat lander. I assume a mountain gun is a handgun in a caliber large enough to shoot something that may be trying to eat you yet is small enough to carry.

S&W made several runs of “Mountain Gun” revolvers, back in the day. Actually, the first run was the Mountain Revolver, built on the Model 629. To keep that a collectible run, S&W named the subsequent runs Mountain Guns. Some common features were tapered barrels, the the leading edge of the cylinder being beveled. So, these were lighter in weight, and easier/smoother to re-holster, than the standard models.

[awp_101]

There were multiple reports of cracked forcing cones with factory and Skeeter loads on one of the Ruger forums and the single action forum not long after the 5” .44 Special GPs started hitting the streets. I wonder if they ever sorted that out?

[Bruce Cartwright]

Lost River:

That's a nice revolver. I have never been a fan of the 41 Magnum, but folks who have them, generally tend to be big fans of the cartridge. I always figured I could load my 44 Magnums up or down as the case warranted and hence, I never saw the need for the 41. That said the few times I have shot 41 Magnums, they generally seemed to have a less violent recoil than the 44 Magnum with equivalent loads.

In designing the revolver in question, the owner specified an impressive set of characteristics. I suspect it is a nice shooting and very practical wheelgun that will spend a significant amount of time in a Sparks holster. Hopefully it will end up looking like Malamute's Model 29.

If you get a chance to shoot it at long range, let us know what you think of the lightweight 5 inch barrel.

Great post. Thanks!

Bruce

[SCCY Marshal]

...I have never been a fan of the 41 Magnum, but folks who have them, generally tend to be big fans of the cartridge...

That's an understatement. My model 57 might be going on the funeral pyre that I may, in fact, take it with me:

83098

[Lost River]

Thanks.
When ever I load up the whole deal I find myself smiling like a kid stealing warm cookies.

Looking forward to your load development, especially the .41 Special side.
I could send you some of my brass as I don't reload. All once fired.

I might take you up on that in the future, but am good at the moment, as I have some shipping in. But thank you, I appreciate it!

[Lost River]

Lost River:

That's a nice revolver. I have never been a fan of the 41 Magnum, but folks who have them, generally tend to be big fans of the cartridge. I always figured I could load my 44 Magnums up or down as the case warranted and hence, I never saw the need for the 41. That said the few times I have shot 41 Magnums, they generally seemed to have a less violent recoil than the 44 Magnum with equivalent loads.

In designing the revolver in question, the owner specified an impressive set of characteristics. I suspect it is a nice shooting and very practical wheelgun that will spend a significant amount of time in a Sparks holster. Hopefully it will end up looking like Malamute's Model 29.

If you get a chance to shoot it at long range, let us know what you think of the lightweight 5 inch barrel.

Great post. Thanks!

Bruce

I will definitely get a chance to shoot it, as it is the test gun for .41 Mag and special ammo that I will be producing. I have had requests, so I needed a gun, and Bob shipped one right to my door! Same with .38 Super. He sent a dandy of a steel framed Colt Combat Commander. He knows I am a .44 Mag guy and I think he is trying to plant a seed with this .41. I will admit it is darn nice!

[Lost River]

That is a neat revolver, right in the Goldilocks zone for barrel length.

There is a pinned thread on the .41 Mag & Spl over on the Castboolits forum. I’ve banned myself from reading it because I don’t need another caliber to load.
I don’t need another caliber.
I don’t need…

That pinned thread on the CB forum was started by the owner of this fine 5" 41. :cool:

He is who I consider an SME on the subject of .41s and .38 Supers.

[Lost River]

Thanks.
When ever I load up the whole deal I find myself smiling like a kid stealing warm cookies.

Looking forward to your load development, especially the .41 Special side.
I could send you some of my brass as I don't reload. All once fired.

I appreciate that.hip the 41 Mag though

Now all I need is spare time! lol

I had 41 Special brass on order for over a year with Starline. I have various things on order with them and one day a few months back I realized that they simply cancelled my 41 Special. They did ship my 41 mag though.

I just moved and am still unpacking. Found the mag brass (again).

[jtcarm]

The mountain gun they should have made was a 1/2 lug, taper-barreled 586 in .41 Special.

[titsonritz]

And a JRC IWB for when I need to be really presentable.
82989


Unfortunately, Jim is no longer taking orders.