Why BUIS?

[Wayne Dobbs]

To avoid some bad thread drift on another topic, I thought I'd throw up a potential "burn the witch" question for awp_101:

What are the reasons, excuses and justifications for having back up iron sights (BUIS) on optics equipped duty weapons (including carbines)?

Some thoughts about this were: fighting guns have always had iron sights, using iron sights to learn optics (a really bad, horrible training concept), use iron sights if optic fails (doesn't happen in extremis events) and the one I feel is the actual reason (and a good one) - if the optic dies, gets damaged, etc., we can remove it and keep the weapon in service.

Fire away.

[Pit]

To avoid some bad thread drift on another topic, I thought I'd throw up a potential "burn the witch" question for awp_101:

What are the reasons, excuses and justifications for having back up iron sights (BUIS) on duty weapons (including carbines)?

Some thoughts about this were: fighting guns have always had iron sights, using iron sights to learn optics (a really bad, horrible training concept), use iron sights if optic fails (doesn't happen in extremis events) and the one I feel is the actual reason (and a good one) - if the optic dies, gets damaged, etc., we can remove it and keep the weapon in service.

Fire away.

The reason I have them on my Rattler and carbines. But what do I know, I'm still carrying a 45acp 1911.

JW

[GearFondler]

Each morning I use the BUIS on my carry pistol to quickly verify that my RDS is still zeroed... That alone is reason enough for me to have them, aside from the already listed reasons.

I would be more curious to learn what possible advantage there is to Not having them. All I can think of is some initial cost savings if you need taller than OEM sights or a slightly cheaper direct mill cost.

[peterb]

IMO, the cost/benefit ratio favors BUIS for a working(not range toy)firearm. The size, weight, and expense seem reasonable compared to the potential consequences of having a firearm be effectively unusable due to an optics failure.

They’re an insurance policy for an unlikely event.

[Noah]

The reason I have them on my Rattler and carbines. But what do I know, I'm still carrying a 45acp 1911.

JW

This. Almost more of an "administrative backup" than actually expecting an optic to go down mid fight and then seamlessly transition to irons. We all do a lot more shooting for practice and living life than we do gunfighting.

[JohnO]

Today's rational as I see it.


Pistols
1. newer in the optics arena so there will be hesitancy.
2. Many optic ready pistols come with compatible height sights.
3. Just like Glock plastic sights are place holders for real sights your blaster will look weird with empty slots & holes.

Carbines
1. Screw it I paid enough for this optic and mount. I'm not dumping more money into something I will never need/use.
or
2. You put them on your carbine so your buddies won't give you shit about not having them.

[BehindBlueI's]

Why not?

[blues]

This seems like a question that shouldn't need to be asked.

[TC215]

Agency policy.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve decided to push myself a little by going with RDS and no irons on my main carry guns - a G26, G43 (each with a RMRcc) and G27 (just sent to be milled for a RMR.) I’ve even gone the extra step to remove the rear dovetail and place the RDS back as far as possible. I do have three fallbacks, though - the simple one is adding a front sight and using the RDS as a big ghost ring with front index, the more involved one is adding a PMM IRDS and a front post, and the most extensive one is sending the slides back to Battle Werx for a dovetail forward of the RDS and refinishing.

I’m an analyst, so I tested my assumptions as best I could before committing to this. My method was removing the rear sight and battery from my G19 with RMR and first shooting it with just the front sight and unpowered dot, and then removing the front sight and shooting through the dark RMR. I found I was marginally faster and more accurate with the front sight, but not strikingly so. In both cases I was able to keep all hits onto a 6” target out to the maximum 10 yards I tested, an appropriate distance for my needs (not LE, concealed carry for self defense.)

I’m still comfortable with my choice.

[Bergeron]

I am reminded of an article by the late & great Pat Rogers in SWAT Magazine. He argued (persuasively) that carbine dots were sufficiently mature that the irons were no longer necessary, and that if the dot went down, the best backup would be a green laser.

Without having the substantial background of the membership here, I tend to concur with that article. When the What Would Stoner Do (WWSD) projects occurred in 2017 & 2020, iron sights were intentionally deleted. The argument was that they were unnecessary anyway, and that removing the BUIS opened up more rail space for IR/NV and other electro-optics or other add-ons.

There may also be merit in considering exactly what sort of optics match with exactly what sort of back-ups. Without a QD mount, folding BUIS seem contra-indicated on a scoped gun. I handled a dot-equipped 10.3" AR at a class last weekend that had the dot on a 1.93" mount, and a fixed front sight. There was a hole in the mount that could be used as a sight. I'm waiting on getting a 16" PCC built, and I have the JP offset irons on it, mounted at 45 degrees, with a TLR-2AG ahead of the irons. I know that I'll have to shoot hard leans, and I'm curious to see how this whole thing will act. I will note that the JP offset irons seem a good bit heavier, and are bulkier, than any reasonable RDS.

When I first decided to get into pistol dots, I thought that I wanted the irons to absolute co-witness with the dot, and now I have a tritium standard high front for like a "lower-1/10th" co-witness. I just loved the screen and the visibility, and I'm satisfied with the durability and battery life of the existing options. I do have a TLR-8AG on the pistols, and there was a class last fall that was some weird and awkward position, and rather than trying to get behind the glass, I just hit the light/laser, and went that way. If the dot goes down, I'll do the same.

Of course, this entire plan does become very battery dependent.

[Tokarev]

Aside from having flip-up or otherwise sights that are visible through a dead battery optic; what about BUIS on a carbine equipped with an LVPO or some other prism or magnification optic?

Does something like an ACOG, which is probably as durable as anything of this type can be, necessitate the addition of BUIS? Aside from mounting in a carrying handle with a mount that allows some view of the iron sights, some sort of 45° option is about all you've got.

Some ACOGs come with built-in BUIS but these get knocked off accidentally through use and abuse probably far more often than the ACOG actually failing....



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[Default.mp3]

I am reminded of an article by the late & great Pat Rogers in SWAT Magazine. He argued (persuasively) that carbine dots were sufficiently mature that the irons were no longer necessary, and that if the dot went down, the best backup would be a green laser.I could see a class 3B green laser being usable out to like 15 yards on a bright sunny day; a class 3R, you'd be lucky to get out to 5 yards.


When the What Would Stoner Do (WWSD) projects occurred in 2017 & 2020, iron sights were intentionally deleted. The argument was that they were unnecessary anyway, and that removing the BUIS opened up more rail space for IR/NV and other electro-optics or other add-ons.I don't see how removing BUIS would give you all that much rail space outside of PDWs. It's not like BUIS take up very much rail space to begin with; since these are BUIS, it's not like you're forced to try to maximize sight radius, so just put the irons where ever they fit. Ultimately, they'll still give you more frame of reference than a laser dot you can't see or no sights at all, and most likely can still provide better precision than using the dead optic as a giant ghost ring (which wouldn't work if the optic was occluded anyway, and you had to ditch it). That's how I've added BUIS to my 11.5" that has an MFAL and the giant Unity Tactical TAPS tapeswitch, along with a riser and magnifier:
https://i.imgur.com/SPTwxY3h.jpg


Does something like an ACOG, which is probably as durable as anything of this type can be, necessitate the addition of BUIS? Aside from mounting in a carrying handle with a mount that allows some view of the iron sights, some sort of 45° option is about all you've got.I don't see why not; optic usability extends beyond whether or not the optic itself is functioning. A fogged up optic due to moving from one temperature extreme to another is something to consider; yeah, you can wipe usually, but sometimes you just can't, e.g., moving from a heated interior into an extremely cold exterior, enough that the condensation can freeze.

[HeavyDuty]

Serious question for RDS equipped long guns - are offset irons practical, or for gaming only? I’ve never really thought about them.

[rob_s]

because I hate driving all the way to the range, all keyed up to get to shoot, only to find out upon arrival that the battery in my optic has shit the bed in the 5 years since I shot the gun and I have to just turn around and drive the hour home again...

[Noah]

Serious question for RDS equipped long guns - are offset irons practical, or for gaming only? I’ve never really thought about them.

Offset irons or RDS with a magnified optic are very practical but require lots of training to feel "natural". I tend to prefer top mounted/piggybacked backup RDS to a magged optic for close range myself, but I've ended up going back to a red dot and magnfier.

[Lon]

Even good RDS shit the bed, like my T1 did on a SWAT op when bad guy was trying to turn a neighborhood into Fallujah. Not a dead battery, a dead optic. Finished the op w irons.

BUIS aren’t optional for me.

[blues]

Even good RDS shit the bed, like my T1 did on a SWAT op when bad guy was trying to turn a neighborhood into Fallujah. Not a dead battery, a dead optic. Finished the op w irons.

BUIS aren’t optional for me.

Thank you.

[PNWTO]

For duty use, especially in a field environment where logistics aren’t a surety (MIL), why not? Especially because an organization is probably paying for it. My overseas time had a few individuals revert to putting their carry handles back on since the ACOGs that were found unserviceable weren’t going to be replaced anytime soon.

For the “normal earth people” I don’t think the necessity exists, although the “want” may; just my opinion. Nothing wrong with the “want” either, I just can’t create an event where they fit in aside from ruining an opportunity at a range or class.

The above sentiment is for carbines although there’s enough evidence of folks using a dead RMR frame to hit B/C at 25 yards that I feel the actual “necessity” for pistols may be similar.

Circling back to the beginning of my post, probably a necessity for folks with professional needs.

[HeavyDuty]

For what it’s worth, I’m willing to consider defensive handguns without BUIS due to the limited range. Long guns are a much harder sell for me.

[Noah]

For what it’s worth, I’m willing to consider defensive handguns without BUIS due to the limited range. Long guns are a much harder sell for me.

This is a good point, though in a purely civilian context, shooting through a dead RDS window is *probably* enough precision for the distance.

[ubervic]

I had an RDS setup about 3 years ago. On a visit to the range, the RDS suddenly failed to operate. I quickly realized that I'd failed to properly screw-down the battery cover plate, enabling it to flip away during a string of fire, relieving the battery from the rig as well. Without my iron sights in that scenario, I'd have no effective means to hit a target beyond about 3-5 yds.

[David S.]

Because empty dovetails are ugly? ;)

Edit, because tech forum:

Reasons -
-I don't think a slide mounted RDS is as bomb proof as a frame mounted or carbine mounted optic, particularly the open emitter optics I use. The performance tradeoff is worth the risk for me, so I want BUIS.

-For the same reasons I maintained them on my Aimpoint PRO equipped carbine: because why not? Now that a LPVO sits on top of my carbine, I don't bother.

-Crude zero verification.

[TC215]

Even good RDS shit the bed, like my T1 did on a SWAT op when bad guy was trying to turn a neighborhood into Fallujah. Not a dead battery, a dead optic. Finished the op w irons.

BUIS aren’t optional for me.

Same, I had an EOTech (before our switch to Aimpoint) on my rifle go down hard dealing with a barricaded homicide suspect years ago. Had to flip the irons up.

[Wondering Beard]

I'm probably in the "old dog/new tricks" category but I'm just plain not comfortable with the idea that a life saving piece of equipment is entirely dependent on electronics/batteries.

Hell, I purposely choose to wear a mechanical watch because I won't ever have to deal with batteries. ;-)

[GearFondler]

I'm probably in the "old dog/new tricks" category but I'm just plain not comfortable with the idea that a life saving piece of equipment is entirely dependent on electronics/batteries.

Hell, I purposely choose to wear a mechanical watch because I won't ever have to deal with batteries. ;-)Hope you never need a pacemaker. Or a flashlight.

[Craig_AR]

...
What are the reasons, excuses and justifications for having back up iron sights (BUIS) on optics equipped duty weapons (including carbines)?
...
Last June I was able take a Rangemaster Instructor class, even though I am just beginning my advanced training journey. Second day on the range the screws broke on the RDS on my double stack 9 with Tom Givens standing right behind me. The sight flew up, landed on top of my ball cap and bounced to the ground. I was able to continue the drill uninterrupted with the iron sights. Tom said it confirmed his contention that RDS are not ready for prime time. Given the quality of my eyesight I will continue to use the RDS, but also practice with the irons. I cannot imagine any duty or self-defense EDC gun, not having BUIS with the RDS.

[Wondering Beard]

Hope you never need a pacemaker. Or a flashlight.

Or a modern car, or a cell phone or ...

That's an easy response/diss.

The world we live in now is filled in its entirety with electronics and I don't have a choice in matter. I'm using electronics right this second to respond to you.

None of this means that 1) I want it back the way it was before and 2) that I'm so comfortable with all of it that I don't worry about it anymore. It just means that I'm not comfortable relying entirely on electronics, no matter how useful they are (and they are incredibly useful)

Some things, like a cell phone or a flashlight, I can't do without and so I keep extra batteries and chargers and all the support stuff and even then, at the very moment I need them, they may not work, and I'd better figure out a way around that (preferably before it happens). With a pistol (or a rifle) the same thing can/has happened, the best/easiest "way around" that is to have irons, as far as I'm concerned.

Anything/everything breaks, I like the idea of having back ups that work entirely differently from the primary equipment.

[GearFondler]

Or a modern car, or a cell phone or ...

That's an easy response/diss.

The world we live in now is filled in its entirety with electronics and I don't have a choice in matter. I'm using electronics right this second to respond to you.

None of this means that 1) I want it back the way it was before and 2) that I'm so comfortable with all of it that I don't worry about it anymore. It just means that I'm not comfortable relying entirely on electronics, no matter how useful they are (and they are incredibly useful)

Some things, like a cell phone or a flashlight, I can't do without and so I keep extra batteries and chargers and all the support stuff and even then, at the very moment I need them, they may not work, and I'd better figure out a way around that (preferably before it happens). With a pistol (or a rifle) the same thing can/has happened, the best/easiest "way around" that is to have irons, as far as I'm concerned.

Anything/everything breaks, I like the idea of having back ups that work entirely differently from the primary equipment.I see that I believe I misunderstood your original post. Your response leads me to believe that you are good with electronic sights as long as they also have BUIS.... We both agree on that.
I read your original post as being against Dots in general and you used irons exclusively. My bad.

[Ed4032]

I have suppressor sites on my Sig 320 with the carry optics. It helped me to learn to use the carry optic. But now they are just big sites in the way.

[BobM]

About every 18-24 months I would have to send back an Aimpoint for repair. We probably had about twenty or so in service, mostly CompM 4s. I would imagine that a lower quality optic in a patrol environment would have been more trouble. Years ago SRT members fielded a couple of Eotecs and those, at least back then, had a lot of issues.

That experience was enough for me to believe that BUIS are absolutely necessary.

[OlongJohnson]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet.

I have weird eyes, 20/20 but with notable astigmatism. I get the burst with a dot. On my H1/H2 setups, the burst shrinks to a size that makes it functional with a good target focus at ranges well inside 100 yards. With a lower-1/3 cowitnessed aperture rear sight, the dot is unobstructed for speed in that in-close work. However, dropping down to cowitness through the aperture cleans up the burst so the dot is a pretty clean point at the top center of the front post, making it useful at much longer ranges.

I've tried the 1x prisms (Vortex, Bushnell, Leupold), and none of them work right for me with both eyes open. (Primary Arms wasn't available when I spent an afternoon swapping 1x options.) At least to my eye, they appear to be slightly other than 1x. My brain prioritizes aligning the edges of the image (more area, and lining up edges), and that creates an offset between where the eyes place what they see at the target focus. Ends up being an error on the order of a foot at 50-ish yards. Totally unacceptable. Using just one eye cleans it up, but then I might as well go with an LPVO and get a magnification option. The Aimpoints appear to be a true 1x and image alignment is perfect with both eyes open.

[HCM]

I have suppressor sites on my Sig 320 with the carry optics. It helped me to learn to use the carry optic. But now they are just big sites in the way.

82784

[Wondering Beard]

I see that I believe I misunderstood your original post. Your response leads me to believe that you are good with electronic sights as long as they also have BUIS.... We both agree on that.
I read your original post as being against Dots in general and you used irons exclusively. My bad.

We're good :-)

I'm perfectly fine with quality electronic sights; I'm uncomfortable with electronic sights only.

On pistols, I'm, right now, only running irons. I have been following the red dot sub-forum tightly since it first started but I have to admit that, with the plethora of units, mounting systems, who did/does a good job direct mounting an optic, what screws to use, how to use them etc... I often end up more confused about what works, what doesn't and what would work for me. So, I'm still waiting for some sort of settling down. I just don't get enough shooting time in my life to try out new things.

On rifles, I'm all dots (with BUIS) but now I'm getting confused with all the LPVO offerings, so I'll wait on that too. :-)

[DMCutter]

I'll throw out a very low probability what if...what does EMP do to electronic red dots? I have an HDS rotary flashlight that is claimed to be EMP proof, but it's the only brand I've ever seen make that claim. I don't know that I've ever seen it addressed WRT red dots of any type. If that's really stupid, feel free to ignore the question.

[DpdG]

For fun and/or competition, I don't have much use for irons on a pistol. For duty/carry, their role is primarily checking co-witness to roughly confirm the optic hasn't shifted zero somehow. Secondarily as a true operational back-up, but quality optic/mounting selection should mitigate the need for buis in the operational sense.

[Sharkbite]

The same rationale for having the following: spare car tires, home owners insurance, fire extinguishers, reserve parachutes, toilet plungers, tourniquets, carrying cash, a good lawyer's number, a reliable plumber

In case of emergency!

[mmc45414]

I don't see why not; optic usability extends beyond whether or not the optic itself is functioning. A fogged up optic due to moving from one temperature extreme to another is something to consider; yeah, you can wipe usually, but sometimes you just can't, e.g., moving from a heated interior into an extremely cold exterior, enough that the condensation can freeze.
Just a game, but.... A year ago I was shooting a 3 gun match with a rifle with an EOtech and it started a deluge right before my squad started the longest stage. The optic was functioning but completely obscured. I tried a few shots by looking at the target and trying to reposition the dot over to where the target was. Spoiler Alert: This didn't work.

Maybe I could have removed the optic and used the sights (I had some on that rifle), not sure I would have hit a 8" target at 190yds, but at least I would have been using some sights.

I have since transitioned to a LPVO and am wondering if I should add some sights. The scope is on a quick release, if I show up.and it is a rainy day I could shoot the match with BUIS.

I do have them on my two carbines that have dots on them, and if the world ends and I am outside defending my suburb in the rain I could pocket the optic amd have a sight system. I also want the optic on some kind of quick release mount for this reason also. If it gets crashed it might also be obscured.

I am just starting to mess with pistol optics, and do like the idea of just a front sight with a contrasting color.


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[BehindBlueI's]

Especially for duty use, what's your dot look like when a lot of light is coming through it? Headlights near your assailant? Backsplash from your own light indoors? Mine's gone. But the BUIS are now very easy to see and use.

Again, why not? They aren't expensive, they aren't heavy, and you aren't replacing them with something that's mutually exclusive to them.

[gato naranja]

I was one of the first guys in my social circle to buy a handgun scope, and it went on a Contender barrel that never did have a set of iron sights on it. It was strictly a hunting/recreational rig and I considered it not so much a tool as a toy. All was well unless weather conditions or common dumb-assery would screw things up and put precipitation or part of the landscape on a lens. It's no big deal to lose a shot at a crow or a thirteen-lined ground squirrel due to fiddle-farting around trying to clear an optic, but it can make one reflective between profanities, and I developed a belt-and-suspenders preference that has never left me.

I know, I know... "okay, boomer."

[UNM1136]

Suspenders and belt.

What has evolved over the last few years is what I need in a BUIS...for the last 15 years I have had a fixed front on my patrol rifle, and a folding rear. All thst time I have run an Aimpoint. I am required to shoot an annual qual course with some of the shooting done irons only. A few years back I got a three pack of shitty batteries from Amazon, and dot failures were common. Now I am looking at LPVOs and magnifiers and am no longer certain that fixed front is the way to go. And I have been running lasers for years. For the rifle I am ready to go Magpul flip ups.

In the last 24+ years I have had irons fail. In my academy in '98 a brand new Sig P229 launched the right tritium dial from its rear sight. I have seen that twice more. I have seen Glock fronts shear, Trijicon Ghost Ring front sight fly off a shotgun more than once, and recently learned that some gun cleaning chemicals when combined with heat from strings of fire can soften red Locktite to the point that my Glock's front sight screw lostened and my front sight was wiggling like a six year old's tooth.

After four years of running suppressor height irons with an RMR I am looking at the P-2, and whether I change optics or not I am looking for a lower 1/4 cowitness or lower. Dawson will be able to hook me up with the exact right sights, once I figure out exactly what height I want. I want them out of the way until I want to see them. I am even toying with going all black and serrated, rather than FO front (first choice) or tritium.

As BBI pointed out not all dot failures are battery or electronics. Lighting and environment can be issues, too. I have run lasers on my duty pistols for a long, long time. I want all three sighting options in place and available.

pat

[Lon]

The more I think about this topic, I would say this - I believe a secondary sighting system is a must for a serious use weapon system. I choose to use BUIS most of the time, but I’ve also used an RMR as a secondary sighting system to a LPVO.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

[DpdG]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

Pretty sure offset irons will be your only option. 1.93” generally puts the mount/optic interface right in line with the sight plane for most normal irons.

[Lon]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?

One of my SWAT guys uses this:
https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-micro-mount/

[farscott]

While I lack the experience of many other people with RDS, my answer for handguns is a bit different than for rifles. For handguns, my experience has been that RDS are much more likely to fail than on a rifle, necessitating BUIS for handguns. On a rifle, I tend to look at the RDS as the backup and the irons as my primary. That view is colored by my shooting more M1 Garand than AR, shooting at longer distances where the irons shine, the issues with mounting a RDS on a Garand, and the ease of shooting the Garand sights as long as the light is decent. If I used ARs more, my answer would likely change.

[Sanch]

For what it’s worth, I’m willing to consider defensive handguns without BUIS due to the limited range. Long guns are a much harder sell for me.

I’m the opposite. No way I’d run a red dot equipped handgun without BUIS. I feel like a red dot on a handgun is far more likely to break or die than a red dot on a carbine. If only because carbine-based aimpoint are more mature. I found a 14 year old aimpoint in my storage box. Had a battery that expired 8 years ago. Still powered on.

How many posts have there been about aimpoint acro p1 batteries dying in a few months?

If I get into an entangled fight, I’m more likely to drop a handgun on the concrete, red dot first, than a carbine. First, far less likely to “drop” the carbine because it’s a two handed weapon so It’s easier to retain. And there’s a sling. Second, if you drop a carbine, there’s more surface for it to land on compared to a red dot handgun.

Also if I needed to shoot one or the other without a red dot, the carbine offers more points of contact for kinesthetic alignment relative to a handgun, to help me shoot looking through the empty tube as a giant ghost ring.

And maybe I’m skewed because you’re answer is handguns are a closer range tool. Which is true, but personally I don’t see the need to ever arise for me to shoot someone at 200 yards with a red dot equipped carbine.

That said, I want BUIS on both my handguns and carbines, except tiny PDW carbines where it would interfere with gripping the foreend.

As far as Pat’s idea of green lasers, I mean, I guess if you’re running a laser anyway because you’re in a team environment and want a laser for non verbal comms, or if you’re running pro-masks, but most civilians shouldn’t bother with lasers unless you’re running NODs. And I wouldn’t trust a laser as my backup site. Batteries and electronics can die there too and as mentioned, it’s hard to see outside in sunlight.

[beenalongtime]

To avoid some bad thread drift on another topic, I thought I'd throw up a potential "burn the witch" question for awp_101:

What are the reasons, excuses and justifications for having back up iron sights (BUIS) on optics equipped duty weapons (including carbines)?

Some thoughts about this were: fighting guns have always had iron sights, using iron sights to learn optics (a really bad, horrible training concept), use iron sights if optic fails (doesn't happen in extremis events) and the one I feel is the actual reason (and a good one) - if the optic dies, gets damaged, etc., we can remove it and keep the weapon in service.

Fire away.

Seems to me you asked and answered your own question.
Duty weapon, means you have other people depending on you. You may not have time to remove the optic, WHEN it breaks.

[UNM1136]

One of my SWAT guys uses this:
https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-micro-mount/

I exclusively use LaRue QD mounts on my long gun. But Uncle Pat taught us to use the optic as a ghost ring rear with a front post....

pat

[DpdG]

I exclusively use LaRue QD mounts on my long gun. But Uncle Pat taught us to use the optic as a ghost ring rear with a front post....

pat

With absolute height, that technique works. Lower 1/3- kinda works but less so. Greater than ~1.70- not possible. The Unity is 2.26” and literally has a rear sight (and technically can take a front post as well) under the optic. It’s essentially like mounting the optic on top of the carry handle.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Intriguing.

We didn't have back up sights when we just had irons. I've seen more than M16A1s, A2s, and M4s have unexpected yet significant damage to the front sights. The expectation was going to be that you'd work through it.

I've had rear sights come loose on pistol slides and have seen front sights depart pistol slides & shotgun barrels under recoil. Again, without BUIS.

And yet, I broke enough early pistol dots that I want some other way to stay involved in solving the problem. Absent the optic completely departing the gun, I think there are enough ways to stay involved if the PMO fails. Those methods all came from concerns about the dot failing.

[RevolverRob]

I brought up this very topic years ago. And my thinking hasn't changed much...

If my optic is hard mounted to the gun (i.e., pistol optic), I want a front sight that can be seen through the glass. And that I can index off some portion of the optic. Pistol optics are still too middling in reliability for me to trust. Since, if I go to a pistol, you can be sure I don't have a long gun available, this matters to me.

On a PDW, rifle, or shotgun? Don't care. Because I have a pistol. Optic shits the bed, to the pistol or use the window of my optic.

My "engagement" distances are measured in, "Minute of across the room or front lawn." A person standing <30y from me will fill a good portion of my optic window and get holes into them.

That said, on a duty weapon riding in a cop car or MRAP? Folding irons that co-witness with the optic. If running an LPVO, offset MRDS. If running a shotgun a co-witness set of ghost rings. Things have a tendency to get beat up by cops and soldiers. Me? My little Rattler PDW and pistol are clean, freshly lubed, with fresh batteries in their lights and optics. Chances of my shit getting broken moving from my carpet-lined gunsafe to my backpack and back are pretty low.

[willie]

I have irons on all weapons but would change that if I were younger. I do have this point to make. From my chair at the lgs I see guys of varying ability installing mediocre dots on HK's, Glocks, and other quality handguns. I hope that lurkers and surfers reading the thread realize that what you got might quit working depending on a number of variables. To me it makes more sense to break the bank buying a 1st class optic than spending a ton of money on the pistol and then then putting a so-so dot on it.

[Tokarev]

The Swedes apparently do not think BUIS are a necessity on their AK4s.


https://youtu.be/ZAOGvzpX0VM

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[DpdG]

The Swedes apparently do not think BUIS are a necessity on their AK4s.


https://youtu.be/ZAOGvzpX0VM

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

True, although the Spuhr stock makes the OE irons nigh unusable due to the vastly raised comb height. Traded greater recoil control and optics utilization for irons compatibility. Also using absolute top shelf optics in either Hensolt (older design but pretty bomb-proof) or Aimpoint.

[gato naranja]

I brought up this very topic years ago. And my thinking hasn't changed much...

If my optic is hard mounted to the gun (i.e., pistol optic), I want a front sight that can be seen through the glass. And that I can index off some portion of the optic. Pistol optics are still too middling in reliability for me to trust. Since, if I go to a pistol, you can be sure I don't have a long gun available, this matters to me.

On a PDW, rifle, or shotgun? Don't care. Because I have a pistol. Optic shits the bed, to the pistol or use the window of my optic.

My "engagement" distances are measured in, "Minute of across the room or front lawn." A person standing <30y from me will fill a good portion of my optic window and get holes into them.

That said, on a duty weapon riding in a cop car or MRAP? Folding irons that co-witness with the optic. If running an LPVO, offset MRDS. If running a shotgun a co-witness set of ghost rings. Things have a tendency to get beat up by cops and soldiers. Me? My little Rattler PDW and pistol are clean, freshly lubed, with fresh batteries in their lights and optics. Chances of my shit getting broken moving from my carpet-lined gunsafe to my backpack and back are pretty low.

This seems to be a reasonable response to the question. I might disagree on small details as they pertain to my own specific situation(s), but "one size fits everything" vis-a-vis BUIS isn't any more likely than the "one gun for everything" does. A half century of of seeing optics of all kinds go to hell has made me (perhaps illogically) wary of not having some sort of contingency plan, and it would probably take another forty-five years of really improved optics for me to think differently.

The only non-ironsighted firearm I have owned since "Gato Naranja's Great Obscure Ammunition and Pointless Firearm Purge" isn't even a firearm: it's a Weihrauch HW30S Deluxe air rifle with a Leupold 3-9X22 AO. The shadow of its front iron sight was problematic when the objective was cranked for close distances, and it had to go. This is one situation where if the optic fails, there is no consequence other than me having to buy a new optic at my leisure.

[Tokarev]

Frank Proctor's view from a few years back:

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/13/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-16/

[RevolverRob]

Frank Proctor's view from a few years back:

https://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/13/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-16/

I tend to agree with him. But we have had multiple folks note optics failures right here in this thread. Just because he hasn't seen it doesn't make it real.

Also, a note on the optics Proctor was running. An ACOG - probably the most robust combat optic out there. And a SpecterDR, the second most bomb proof optic out there. In both cases, those optics have etched reticles. And in the case of the Specter, vestigial, but still present, iron sights on top of the optic.

Anyone notice the cost of the optics here? Willie is probably onto something regarding breaking the bank on your optic...

[Nephrology]

I think they can make sense on a red-dot equipped carbine, where you can quickly deploy irons and use them through the optic tube/screen.

They make a lot less sense on rifles with magnified optics, including LPVOs (speaking as someone guilty of owning 2 guns with LPVOs and irons...). Offset mRDS or ntothing at all makes a lot more sense on these guns IMO.

On handguns I feel like they are still necessary given the state of modern handgun optics but that may be changing.

[tlong17]

Carbine with 1.93” or higher optic, I still like to have BUIS and use a relatively QD mount (Scalarworks). But I’m also just a Joe civilian and don’t have lasers and shit on it.

On a concealed pistol, I’m Ok not having any BUIS as I feel comfortable using the shroud of the optic guillotine method or using the backplate if the optic is gone. If I have to make a tight shot at distance I’ll just accept the limits of my accuracy and adapt accordingly. That said, it’s pretty easy to have BUIS these days, even on accident.

If I had to carry a pistol in a holster all day, BUIS would be a must for me so that I can still make a longer shot if needed.

[rob_s]

The main thing I still haven't seen change in 20... shit, maybe 30 years?.. of this argument...

why NOT BUIS?

If you can't afford these (https://www.amazon.com/Magpul-MBUS-Flip-Up-Backup-Sights/dp/B004SH9OUS?th=1), the problem isn't the gunfight* it's your finances.

If you can't lift them, the problem isn't the gunfight either. ;)

and that's just one example that's relatively low cost and low weight.



*as mentioned earlier in the thread, I couldn't care less about the gunfight. People get carried away with "transition to the pistol" or "I'm not gonna have the tools to remove by 1.x-2M optic", etc.

Maybe. IDK, I haven't had my gunfight yet. A trend I hope to continue.

I have damn sure been at the range looking to shoot a match, drills, class, etc. and finding myself short one functioning optic and never short of tools or someone to borrow said tools from or unable to field-expedient a solution. I suppose that, there again, if you've trucked your full arsenal to the static range to shoot them all with your cousin that's in from Canada and has never shot a "machinegun"... maybe it still doesn't matter. Just shoot a different gun or, since they probably won't hit shit anyway, just rock on with the tube.

[NH Shooter]

For those who have used them, how effective is the notch "rear sight" on these optics when paired with a proper height front sight?



https://holosun.com/uploads/20210423/35128f7b12c579d74f7b697cb6b6221e.jpg

[JCN]

For those who have used them, how effective is the notch "rear sight" on these optics when paired with a proper height front sight?



https://holosun.com/uploads/20210423/35128f7b12c579d74f7b697cb6b6221e.jpg

Works very well. And for most guns it can use the factory front sight.

[NH Shooter]

Works very well. And for most guns it can use the factory front sight.

Thanks, much appreciated!

[DocGKR]

Lots of reasons to have them, less not to. I like co-witnessed BUIS with a rifle or handgun mounted RDS, as the BIS allow me to quickly check if my dot has shifted for any reason....

[Clusterfrack]

USPSA CO shooters generally remove the irons from their guns to keep the window uncluttered and as large as possible. It's interesting that the advantages of BUIS do not outweigh this for most competitors, including me.

I'm trying "lower 1/4" with iron sights forward on my P-07, and it's close to not having irons at all--except when needed. The trade-off is that without a very long front blade, the POI is in the center of the window when the irons are aligned. That works surprisingly well, and I think I'll do this on future carry guns.

[1Rangemaster]

Several reasons, some already mentioned(assuming a defensive piece here):
1. Policy
2. An ability to stay engaged if the dot goes away(battery, electronics failure, etc. One side question for me here is: how many actually practice that? Erick Gelhaus has reported work on this, to include taping the front and back lens(indexing).
3. I also like Wayne Dobbs’ response of pulling the malfunctioning sight and carrying on.
4. Checking the dot on the glass.
5. Related to #2 above, some gentlemen with extensive “real world” experience run them especially on carbines, though have never needed them. One even runs the irons flipped up to save time should they be necessary.

Put another way-why have a reserve chute...?

[NH Shooter]

USPSA CO shooters generally remove the irons from their guns to keep the window uncluttered and as large as possible. It's interesting that the advantages of BUIS do not outweigh this for most competitors, including me.

As I slowly make my way out from under a rock in regards to MRDS on pistols, I had made two important points of discovery this past weekend when I fondled my son in-laws Sig P226 Legion RXP, which is equipped with a Romeo 1 Pro 6-MOA optic;


My corrected vision renders the 6-MOA dot perfectly (a happy observation!)
The irons obscure more of the window area than I thought they would and certainly diminishes the unobstructed view through the optic (a not-so-happy observation)

Though not being set up as a competition gun, I too would prefer an "uncluttered" view through the optic. My current thinking is that the rear sight notch on the HE407K-GR X2 paired with an appropriate front sight would be unobtrusive yet reasonably effective should a need for BUIS arise.

[4RNR]

Backup, plain and simple. Two summers ago I attended a one day rifle course. The night before I made sure everything was working and good to go. Day of the class my AimPoint died first thing in the morning. It just wouldn't turn on. Tried different batteries.... nothing! This was an old AimPoint and sooner or later things break and the night before was it's last night.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[HCM]

Several reasons, some already mentioned(assuming a defensive piece here):
1. Policy
2. An ability to stay engaged if the dot goes away(battery, electronics failure, etc. One side question for me here is: how many actually practice that? Erick Gelhaus has reported work on this, to include taping the front and back lens(indexing).
3. I also like Wayne Dobbs’ response of pulling the malfunctioning sight and carrying on.
4. Checking the dot on the glass.
5. Related to #2 above, some gentlemen with extensive “real world” experience run them especially on carbines, though have never needed them. One even runs the irons flipped up to save time should they be necessary.

Put another way-why have a reserve chute...?

Re # 5 - many run only the front BUIS up on carbines, the idea being if the dot dies the front sight post can be used in conjunction with the optic window /body acting as a rear close up. The thought being at greater distance there would likely be time to flip up the rear BUIS.

Of course on a secondary sighting system doesn’t need to be irons, though it’s still the most practical choice on a pistol. A red optic and a green laser can be viable.

[1Rangemaster]

Re # 5 - many run only the front BUIS up on carbines, the idea being if the dot dies the front sight post can be used in conjunction with the optic window /body acting as a rear close up. The thought being at greater distance there would likely be time to flip up the rear BUIS.

Of course on a secondary sighting system doesn’t need to be irons, though it’s still the most practical choice on a pistol. A red optic and a green laser can be viable.

I understand your point, and that is how I run my carbine-a fixed front sight, rear folded down. It seems this might be personal preference, although that is sometimes not respected these days.
A Streamlight TLR8 w/green laser is attached to my personal 19 MOS. I’ve worked with it in reduced light, and I think it quite viable.

[HeavyDuty]

I understand your point, and that is how I run my carbine-a fixed front sight, rear folded down. It seems this might be personal preference, although that is sometimes not respected these days.
A Streamlight TLR8 w/green laser is attached to my personal 19 MOS. I’ve worked with it in reduced light, and I think it quite viable.

FSB with a folded rear is my preference too.

[Default.mp3]

As someone who just bought a 1.93" Geissele Mount for the Aimpoint Micro, I didn't think about whether this would allow for BUIS on the rifle. Anybody know if it's a problem and how to solve it?FYI, Scalarworks just announced 1.93" folding BUIS.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=656610728812517