choosing a bolt action rifle to help me get better at shooting bolt action rifles

[pangloss]

I guess this might be a New Year's resolution, but this year I intend to work on my rifle shooting. I've enjoyed the "Rifle Caliber for Hunting in the West (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50792-Rifle-Caliber-for-Hunting-the-West)" thread and it caused me to re-think my pending purchase decision. My initial plan was to buy a Tikka T3x in .308 Win and shoot it as much as I can. However, now I wonder if I shouldn't get a T3x in .223. Expense and recoil is less with the .223. My goal is to become a "good" shot out to 300 yards from field positions, ultimately with a deer/elk capable cartridge. I'm not interested in bench rest shooting as an end unto itself. I have a Ruger No. 1 in .270 Winchester that I hunt with, so I don't need the new rifle for anything other than a practice gun. Right now I'm leaning toward the .223, but I'd appreciate any advice that anyone cares to share. Thanks.

[Oldherkpilot]

I think the .223 bolt gun is a good plan. Even .308s are hard on me anymore so I enjoy my Savage 16 in, of course, .223. Remember the rule, though. .223 in a .556 chamber but not the other way around. A good rimfire to practice with is also a great idea, even if its not a bolt action. Good luck!

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Tikka T1x + NRL22 targets ( and download stage descriptions)+ a couple bricks ammo would be a nice ROI (time and money wise) for making a person a better all around bolt gun shooter from field positions...

My , at the time, pre-teen son became a much rifle shooter (and hunter), from a relatively small number of competition specific practice sessions and NRL22 matches. I am an advocate of leaving the bench and the prone/bipod position that most rifle shooters employ and either:
1. Improving basic rifle skills with a sling ala traditional 3/4 position nra style competition technique either with either rimfire or center fire equipment
Or
2. Get better at "field/improvised" type practical shooting via PRS/ NRL type shooting with NRL22 being the lowest barrier of entry, equipment wise.

[Welder]

I agree with the competition suggestion for most rapid improvement. I shot 3- and 4-position smallbore for a few years in HS back when none of us could afford Anschutzes, mostly through 4-H. Air rifles could be another fun option although I've never owned a good one. You could get a good sporter-stocked one and get in some really good practice with trigger manipulation including follow-through.

I think there are non-military High Power Rifle classes that allow you to shoot bolt rifles in .223 or other more affordable caliber with scopes. Pretty expensive sport to get into, though, if you want to be competitive. I dabbled in Service Rifle on a semi-local level 10 years ago or so...it was a good ole boys' club and I was 30 years younger than anyone else, so I didn't really fit in too well. And it was still expensive.

I'd check out what your locale offers first, then pick a sport that seems fun and a gun to shoot in it. NRL-22 is something I hope to try in the next couple of years. Just need to put a scope on a rifle I already have and pick up some ancillaries.

[JonInWA]

This may or may not fit the niche that you're seeking, but if you can find a CZ 527 in either .223 or 7.62x39 I'd jump on it before they become unobtanium (or ridiculously priced obtanium).

Best, Jon

[Duelist]

.22LR and/or .223 would be the way to go for your stated goals.
Specific rigs may vary.

[Lost River]

I have owned both the varmint barrel and sporter barrel version of the T3 .223 and both were amazing shooters. I sent the varmint barrel down the road simply for the fact that it really did not shoot any better than the skinny barrel gun did (and that is really saying something) and was way easier to pack in the field. The skinny barrel .223 accounted for probably 50 coyotes and shot some groups that was one of the reasons I seriously slowed down building custom bolt guns. I found zero reason to spend $$ starting with a Remington action, truing it, getting a custom barrel, etc, etc, when an off the shelf Tikka was more likely than not going to out perform it, have a better extraction system/be more reliable in the deep winter.


The only reason I got rid of it was I found I was hunting more with an AR. In retrospect I wish I would have kept it. It was such an amazing shooter.

Personally I would find an 8 twist T3 and not look back. I know a couple guys that use them to hunt deer with. I am not talking about little Whitetails but Mule Deer. They let their kids use them as "kid guns" and saw how easy they were knocking down the mulies, and decided to try it for themselves and put away their big guns. The one thing each of those guys have in common is that they are very accomplished shooters, but I still think it is interesting.

Anyways, my advice is to grab a .223 Tikka and a bunch of reloading supplies (if you reload). Mine would put 52 grain SMKs into tiny little clusters, and was hell on yotes.

https://i.imgur.com/smkHlKI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4NebJej.jpg


Kimber's first real hunt when I think she was 5. She was immensely proud that we got a couple.

https://i.imgur.com/jkt5u5I.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/VjRB79S.jpg

Anyways,

No question in my book, and I have used CZs, Savages, Remingtons, and Winchester .223s. Probably one or two I don't remember now

I would get a T3. Top it with an SWFA and a good sling and get to work.

[Duces Tecum]

I guess this might be a New Year's resolution, but this year I intend to work on my rifle shooting. I've enjoyed the "Rifle Caliber for Hunting in the West (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50792-Rifle-Caliber-for-Hunting-the-West)" thread and it caused me to re-think my pending purchase decision. My initial plan was to buy a Tikka T3x in .308 Win and shoot it as much as I can. However, now I wonder if I shouldn't get a T3x in .223. Expense and recoil is less with the .223. My goal is to become a "good" shot out to 300 yards from field positions, ultimately with a deer/elk capable cartridge. I'm not interested in bench rest shooting as an end unto itself. I have a Ruger No. 1 in .270 Winchester that I hunt with, so I don't need the new rifle for anything other than a practice gun. Right now I'm leaning toward the .223, but I'd appreciate any advice that anyone cares to share. Thanks.

Have you considered the Project Appleseed?
https://appleseedinfo.org/

Duces

[Clusterfrack]

Based on recommendations of several friends, Caylen Wojcik's classes are excellent.
https://moderndaysniper.com/services/

I would choose a decent .308, with a good mil/mil FFP scope.

[Lester Polfus]

My unsexy advice for learning basic rifle marksmanship would be to buy a good .22 bolt action and a couple cases of ammo.

[JTMcC]

The ammo situation is the kicker.
Without that I'd get a relatively cheap Lee-Enfield (any model but my preference is No1 Mk3's) that was sporterized at some point, cut the barrel to 16"-20" and run that bolt! I'd still do that if I found some .303 ammo.

In todays market I'd get an older used .22 LR bolt gun and run that bolt... unless .223 was a "destination" caliber for me, ie it will do all I need out of a bolt gun. Then I'd go .223, my needs are heavier but I really like having .22's in my real "work gun" type actions.

I have a Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 and there's a lot of entertainment value in drilling fast(er) reloads with falling block single shots.:D

[GJM]

I have a CZ 527 with a Zeiss fixed 4 power, that I used for exactly what you describe.

[308Rifle]

Since you are not an absolute beginner, 22lr might not be the right choice for you. While all skill levels technically can gain improved skills using 22lr, for what you indicate is your purpose/goals for this rifle, I think you will quickly plateau with a 22lr and end up having to buy yet another new rifle to go to the next level. .223 or .308 can give you mild starting places and allow for growth. Both are easy to reload and have a wide variety of bullets covering a wide range of uses/needs.

Because you already have some experience already, .223 will give you everything that a 22lr will, but add some actual recoil (even if very minor), be able to stretch out to 300 yards and more, and if you are not already reloading an easy cartridge that can be reloaded.

For many of the same reasons .308 can be a good choice as well, it can be downloaded with H4895 and Trailboss, thus give reduced recoil, but then can grow towards full performance loads. Depending on the rifle, the recoil of .308 can be as mild as a .223. just depends on how light or how heavy. Lighter the rifle, the more felt recoil, especially if you do not mount the rifle correctly. With light rifles, .308 can still be pleasant to shoot if you mount the rifle correctly.

Cost wise, .223 will be the most economical for high volume practice.

Which rifle to go with? If going with .223 I would suggest a rifle in current production, has decent aftermarket support for stocks and other possible enhancements and good gunsmith support for re barreling or ease of doing so yourself. Most rifles come with 1 in 9 twist, a few come with 1 in 8. I would encourage getting a rifle that comes with a 1 in 8 twist. When it comes to re barreling time, I would encourage either staying with 1 in 8 or going to 1 in 7. the 7 inch twist is very flexible and would for allow for the use of bullets (75 grain and up) that can reach out to 1000 yards. Should you ever decided to give it a try.

If you go .308, very similar advice. For the twist, 1 in 10 will give you the best support for a wide range of bullets as you stretch out the distance you want to shoot. A lot of rifles come with 1 in 12, which isn't bad to get started with.

How long will your barrel last? All depends on how much you shoot, how hot the barrel is allowed to get etc. Since you indicate you are not looking into a shooting discipline that is about tiny groups, but rather practical shooting from the field, small groups isn't the goal. Rather keeping shots made on demand, from fields positions, and placing all into a specific size zone is the goal. Typically, 4 or 6 inch zones if hunting is your primary purpose. Given this, I wouldn't be surprised if you can get up wards of 15,000 rounds from a .223 barrel or 10,000 from a .308. Maybe more. depending on how old you are, you might not ever have to re barrel. But if you had to, you want to have a rifle that re barreling isn't a "big deal" to have done.

For training, the most economical option based on price and reputation, is the https://appleseedinfo.org/ project. I would skip any classes that focus on PRS/"sniper" type shooting. For what you describe as your goals, appleseed, gunsite 270, randy cain's practical rifle, and tom russell's 5 1/2 day rifle class are examples of classes that would likely fit your goals better. While all rifle shooting disciplines have overlap, each has important and unique differences that are specific to its focus. I would encourage looking into classes that cover skills specific or close to your goals.

If this was me, I would be looking for a used Remington to fix up in the caliber I chose. If not a Remington, I would be looking for a Tikka, which has a reputation for being the most ready to go out of the box of any of the mass produced production rifles. And for classes, I would try and get into any of the ones I listed.

[mmc45414]

My goal is to become a "good" shot out to 300 yards from field positions
Don't know what might be available in your area, and not exactly what you are asking, but I think our monthly three-gun matches have helped my rifle shooting significantly. The club has a 200yd range that is used about every other month, and that moved me to a LPVO. And the organizers like to put us into funky positions. So getting into position and on the target while you are on the clock is giving me some experience that IMO is improving my rifle marksmanship. One simple thing is getting to know what magnification I am going to want by assessing the task. And you probably already have a gun. But maybe I just got lucky on the local club (http://ccfsa.com/ranges.html).

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Some of the most important tasks in general rifle shooting are :

1.Building your position for the shot
2. Trigger control
3. Reading the wind

A 22 at 100 yrs is somewhat analogous to a center fire at 600 yards (wind effects)and @ 200 yards wind effects are closer to 1000 yards with a centerfire. Past 200, ammo inconsistency, even in the high dollar end of match ammo makes life more difficult (not saying shots past 200 w/22 are impossible but 22 ELR is a rabbit hole in and of itself and not a good trainer for centerfire shooting IMO.)

I like a 223 or even better a 223AI bolt gun as a trainer (at ranges way past 200) but a 22 trainer gets you way more bang for the buck, especially at the ranges most people have easily availible....

[Borderland]

I used to hunt deer in my youth but sold all of my rifles by the time I was 30. I really missed my 22 LR so my first rifle in about 30 years was a CZ 455 with a good 4x Leupold scope. I then immediately bought a case of ammo. You might say I started all over again. I shot that one a lot until I was consistent out to 100 yds. I then purchased several .223 rifles for the flatter trajectory. A .223 will mimic the flatter trajectory of most 6-7mm rifles out to 300. If you reload it's a cheap one to shoot and 100 rds won't beat your brains out. A .223 bolt rifle is a pretty good CF trainer.

I just sold a Howa Mini .223 to a friend who wanted to get his grandson some trigger time on a CF rifle. Once he starts hunting deer he will have to move up to something larger as .223 is illegal in this state. If he hunts in some of the states that border WA he can use it.

I've noticed that people don't trade or sell their .223 bolt rifles much anymore because of ammo prices.

[mmc45414]

Another thought:
A Savage is not sexy, but it is a simple matter to switch barrels and bolt face. You could get a .223 and if you wanted to in the future you could easily change it over to any other short action caliber.

[BobM]

I have a Remington LTR in 308, a Ruger American Ranch in 300 BO, and compact Ruger American Rimfires in 22 long rifle and 22 magnum. I wanted a light 223 bolt gun for coyote and maybe ground hog hunting. A few years ago I had a heavy barrel 20” Savage 223 that shot pretty well but I didn’t like lugging it around. A couple months ago I came across a decent deal on a Ruger American Predator in 223, also thinking I could use it for lower cost, less recoil practice. I’ve not had a chance yet to get a scope on it but I’m hoping it shoots at least as well as the Ranch. I’d also like to find a Predator in 308 that takes the AI magazine and have essentially a family of rifles with similar controls and handling.

[Shoresy]

Tikka T1x + NRL22 targets ( and download stage descriptions)+ a couple bricks ammo would be a nice ROI (time and money wise) for making a person a better all around bolt gun shooter from field positions...

My , at the time, pre-teen son became a much rifle shooter (and hunter), from a relatively small number of competition specific practice sessions and NRL22 matches. I am an advocate of leaving the bench and the prone/bipod position that most rifle shooters employ and either:
1. Improving basic rifle skills with a sling ala traditional 3/4 position nra style competition technique either with either rimfire or center fire equipment
Or
2. Get better at "field/improvised" type practical shooting via PRS/ NRL type shooting with NRL22 being the lowest barrier of entry, equipment wise.


My unsexy advice for learning basic rifle marksmanship would be to buy a good .22 bolt action and a couple cases of ammo.


The ammo situation is the kicker.
Without that I'd get a relatively cheap Lee-Enfield (any model but my preference is No1 Mk3's) that was sporterized at some point, cut the barrel to 16"-20" and run that bolt! I'd still do that if I found some .303 ammo.

In todays market I'd get an older used .22 LR bolt gun and run that bolt... unless .223 was a "destination" caliber for me, ie it will do all I need out of a bolt gun. Then I'd go .223, my needs are heavier but I really like having .22's in my real "work gun" type actions.

I have a Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 and there's a lot of entertainment value in drilling fast(er) reloads with falling block single shots.:D


Some of the most important tasks in general rifle shooting are :

1.Building your position for the shot
2. Trigger control
3. Reading the wind

A 22 at 100 yrs is somewhat analogous to a center fire at 600 yards (wind effects)and @ 200 yards wind effects are closer to 1000 yards with a centerfire. Past 200, ammo inconsistency, even in the high dollar end of match ammo makes life more difficult (not saying shots past 200 w/22 are impossible but 22 ELR is a rabbit hole in and of itself and not a good trainer for centerfire shooting IMO.)

I like a 223 or even better a 223AI bolt gun as a trainer (at ranges way past 200) but a 22 trainer gets you way more bang for the buck, especially at the ranges most people have easily availible....

I'll echo the above, at least as far as rimfire being an excellent training option.

The only part that might give me pause is that for rimfire, 17 HMR can be pushed much further than 22lr. It also costs more and ammo isn't always as plentiful. But it's a great way to practice "30-06 stuff" without 30-06 recoil and 30-06 costs. The decision hinges on whether you're content to work at 50-100 yards (with 22lr), or if you want to hit your stated 300 yard with the training rifle (if it's not, I wouldn't bother with the 17 and would stick to 22).

I would also strongly suggest that if you haven't been to an Appleseed event, start there ("the ability to make a good shot out to 500 yards with off-the-shelf equipment in field positions" is the goal).

[BN]

I have some experience shooting 22LR at long distance. I regularly shoot my 22 rifles out to 350 yards and beyond. Here's what I posted at Rimfire Central.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1164837

I also shoot at Topstrap's matches. He posts about his matches in the long range section at Rimfire Central.


Rimfire vs. Center fire would possibly depend on what shooting ranges you have available to shoot at. You can find places to shoot rimfire easier most places.

If you go rimfire my suggestions would be CZ 457 or a Tikka T1. I suggest a FFP variable power scope with side focus. MOA or MIL is your choice. I have mostly MOA because that is what the people I shoot with have and we can trade DOPE. This is quite the rabbit hole to go down. I started with a 10-22 and after several different rifles, I now have a Vudoo. :)

[Grouse870]

A ruger American ranch in .223 might be worth a look. Decent rifle and uses AR mags if you already have some. The new CZ trail might be worth a look as well.

[TOTS]

I went through this last year and ended up with a Tikka T3X Varmint in .223. Mostly due to the fact I reload and had a lot of components for the caliber. One of the things pulling me towards Tikka was the ease of rebarreling (plenty of prefits out there so you can install yourself if desired) and the common action size - no short/ long. So, if I ever wanted to go to another chambering I could buy a prefit barrel, new bolt, and new mag (just a barrel if it shares the .223 bolt face) and start shooting a new caliber.

I’m absolutely loving it a year later and it shoots 10 rnds into.75 inches. I think ancillary gear matters more than barrel profile so if you’re strapped, save the $2-300 by buying a sporter and spend the $ on a better scope, chassis, etc.

Tikka T3X in .233, Nightforce ffp SHV 4-14, and Harris bipod is the easy button for the minimum $ spent and I don’t think anyone would regret it. Step two would be dropping it into a KRG chassis.

*Note: long-gun shooting is more affected by ammo selection than equipment, so, I would recommend a cheap build shooting high quality .22lr ammo setup over bulk pack .223 in an expensive build for learning. Nothing wastes money like trying to get results of any kind while shooting inconsistent ammo.

** Note 2: you can always handload and get a cheap rifle to shoot well with a good optic, but you will never get a great rifle to shoot any better than a cheap crappy optic will let you see. Spend your money on the optic and ammo.

82213

[Trigger]

For the rifle, as many have said, I recommend a Tikka. A .223 CTR to be specific.

https://www.eurooptic.com/tikka-t3x-ctr-rifles.aspx

Then I would think about ammo. It will take more than 5000 rounds to wear out that barrel. At today’s prices that is $2000-2500 worth of ammo, minimum. For quality ammo, $5000.

Based on that, the cost of the rifle is a minor fraction. You will become a much better rifleman by that time, especially with some of the classes discussed. Buy a quality rifle, don’t skimp. Keep it for a few decades, wear it out if you can.

You will buy the .22, the .308, the 6.5 Manbun, and all the rest in the next decade. Enjoy!

[TOTS]

For the rifle, as many have said, I recommend a Tikka. A .223 CTR to be specific.

https://www.eurooptic.com/tikka-t3x-ctr-rifles.aspx

Then I would think about ammo. It will take more than 5000 rounds to wear out that barrel. At today’s prices that is $2000-2500 worth of ammo, minimum. For quality ammo, $5000.

Based on that, the cost of the rifle is a minor fraction. You will become a much better rifleman by that time, especially with some of the classes discussed. Buy a quality rifle, don’t skimp. Keep it for a few decades, wear it out if you can.

You will buy the .22, the .308, the 6.5 Manbun, and all the rest in the next decade. Enjoy!

I normally love the CTR. My hesitation to recommend it recently is magazine cost. I’m seeing them go for as high as $200 per 10-rnd mag. Would you do CTR or a cheaper T3X in a chassis that takes AICS style mags for around $70? (A benefit is having a lightweight stock for hunting and a chassis for precision) I also don’t like the 0-moa rail it comes with, although, I very much appreciate that it’s threaded from the factory.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

It will take more than 5000 rounds to wear out

Barrels being shot out is a somewhat subjective determination that depends on the individual's expectations(and sometimes ego). A BR shooter may pull a barrel @ <700-1,000 rounds and the barrel is still acceptable to a coyote hunter. By 4-5k rounds of .223,very few NRA highpower shooters will trust the barrel to hold 10 ring (2MOA) @ 600 yds. A barrel might still shot acceptable at 100/200 but at distance, not so much. Another poster mentioned 10k + barrel life in 223 for big targets. Even if you are shooting a big 3-6MOA target , you are (or should be) the weak link ,you need a rifle that is more accurate than you to learn from. If a rifle is doing funny things and you can't trust your shot calling, improvement takes longer to progress. I have seen this before, usually with youth shooting 3/4p smallbore programs and parents buying bulk ammo because little Johnny isn't "good" and eley is "exspensive"...

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

One of the things pulling me towards Tikka was the ease of rebarreling (plenty of prefits out there so you can install yourself if desire......

*Note: long-gun shooting is more affected by ammo selection than equipment, so, I would recommend a cheap build shooting high quality .22lr ammo setup over bulk pack .223 in an expensive build for learning. Nothing wastes money like trying to get results of any kind while shooting inconsistent ammo.

** Note 2: you can always handload and get a cheap rifle to shoot well with a good optic, but you will never get a great rifle to shoot any better than a cheap crappy optic will let you see. [I]Spend your money on the optic and ammo.



I hope your Tikka is is easier to unscrew than the last CTR in my shop for a rebarrel- brownels barrel vise in a 30 ton shop press, custom made barrel bushing, 2 action wrenches (1 internal , 1 external) and the thing wouldn't come apart, came apart by hand after a relief cut was made with a parting tool in the lathe though....

I hope the OP pays a lot of attention to your note 1 and 2. Good(enough) ammo is real helpful, and so are quality optics. On the optics front,there have been a lot of good choices come to the market in the last half a decade at much more reasonable prices than the past.

[pangloss]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had not considered a .22LR. I've got lots of trigger time shooting an old Remington Model 510 Targetmaster (iron sights only and never at anything 100 yards away). For the moment, my eyesight is still good enough, that I could probably get some meaningful practice in with it. I was not aware of the NRL22, and it looks like a lot of fun. An impressive looking range 45 minutes from my house is listed on their website. I had no idea this range existed.

I have reasonably good access to rifle ranges. The state-operated 300 yard range near my house won't allow steel targets, but when I get home to visit my parents (hopefully monthly once the pandemic ends), I can set up whatever I like and shoot out to 1,000 yards. I already have a few rifle rated targets, and my parents' neighbor has a few more set up that I can use. I'm reasonably confident taking shots on standing game out to 100 yards off hand or from a knee. From a rest, I've never attempted anything beyond ~250 yards on game, and I've never shot at any target beyond 300 yards.

I think the ship has sailed on the CZ527s. Gunbroker prices are already inflated. (I looked at a 527 a decade ago when I lived in Nashville. It seemed like a great little rifle. It was a gun store owned by a Jewish guy, and at the time it was the only gun store in the area was open on Sundays.) Tikka T3x (non-CTR) appears to be backordered everywhere I normally check for guns, and the market looks pretty thin for Savage and Ruger. There are a couple of Howa minis in .223 on Gunbroker for reasonable prices. EuroOptic has a 1:9" Steyr for $1,100, and there's a reasonable looking Sauer on Gunbroker for $850. I'll keep an eye on the market, and my short term solution will be to shoot my scoped AR more.

I reloaded for my .270 Win for a few years. I still have reloading equipment, but it's all boxed up and stored in my garage. At least for a while, I don't want my shooting to have to depend on my reloading.

Regarding classes, I've taken plenty of pistol classes, but a rifle class isn't something I thought of. I'll definitely look into the suggestions

Thanks again for the advice.

[HCM]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had not considered a .22LR. I've got lots of trigger time shooting an old Remington Model 510 Targetmaster (iron sights only and never at anything 100 yards away). For the moment, my eyesight is still good enough, that I could probably get some meaningful practice in with it. I was not aware of the NRL22, and it looks like a lot of fun. An impressive looking range 45 minutes from my house is listed on their website. I had no idea this range existed.

I have reasonably good access to rifle ranges. The state-operated 300 yard range near my house won't allow steel targets, but when I get home to visit my parents (hopefully monthly once the pandemic ends), I can set up whatever I like and shoot out to 1,000 yards. I already have a few rifle rated targets, and my parents' neighbor has a few more set up that I can use. I'm reasonably confident taking shots on standing game out to 100 yards off hand or from a knee. From a rest, I've never attempted anything beyond ~250 yards on game, and I've never shot at any target beyond 300 yards.

I think the ship has sailed on the CZ527s. Gunbroker prices are already inflated. (I looked at a 527 a decade ago when I lived in Nashville. It seemed like a great little rifle. It was a gun store owned by a Jewish guy, and at the time it was the only gun store in the area was open on Sundays.) Tikka T3x (non-CTR) appears to be backordered everywhere I normally check for guns, and the market looks pretty thin for Savage and Ruger. There are a couple of Howa minis in .223 on Gunbroker for reasonable prices. EuroOptic has a 1:9" Steyr for $1,100, and there's a reasonable looking Sauer on Gunbroker for $850. I'll keep an eye on the market, and my short term solution will be to shoot my scoped AR more.

I reloaded for my .270 Win for a few years. I still have reloading equipment, but it's all boxed up and stored in my garage. At least for a while, I don't want my shooting to have to depend on my reloading.

Regarding classes, I've taken plenty of pistol classes, but a rifle class isn't something I thought of. I'll definitely look into the suggestions

Thanks again for the advice.

Classes for bolt gun - Randy Cain’s practical rifle class cones highly recommended. Gunsite has options as well.

Suggest doing an Appleseed class locally before either of the above.

PS - I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 - it’s nice but more analogous to a 30-30 lever gun.

The Howa and Ruger options are worth a look. Does Tikka still only use one action size for everything ?

Another option would be Bergara. It’s essentially a Remington 700 clone made better anything Remington Has made in the last 20 or 30 years.

https://www.raniersec.com/shop/bergara-premier-approach-223-rem-20-barrel-5-rds/

[pangloss]

I hope the OP pays a lot of attention to your note 1 and 2. Good(enough) ammo is real helpful, and so are quality optics. On the optics front,there have been a lot of good choices come to the market in the last half a decade at much more reasonable prices than the past.

For ammo, I'll buy a selection and see what groups well in the rifle. I'm very happy shooting steel-cased Wolf out of my Glock at 7 to 10 yards, but cheaping out on ammo while I'm trying to shoot rifles would definitely be a false economy. As for scopes, I expect to spend about what the rifle costs. If I can find something good for a little less, that would be nice. Historically I've bought Leupolds, but I recently bought a Trijicon 1-6x.


Classes for bolt gun - Randy Cain’s practical rifle class cones highly recommended. Gunsite has options as well.

Suggest doing an Appleseed class locally before either of the above.

PS - I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 - it’s nice but more analogous to a 30-30 lever gun.

The Howa and Ruger options are worth a look. Does Tikka still only use one action size for everything ?

Another option would be Bergara. It’s essentially a Remington 700 clone made better anything Remington Has made in the last 20 or 30 years.

https://www.raniersec.com/shop/bergara-premier-approach-223-rem-20-barrel-5-rds/

The nearest Appleseed events look to be three hours drive from me, so that's very doable. All the T3x rifles use the same actions. The wasted material bothers me, but if I did want to get a larger caliber rifle later, having a gun with the same dimensions would be nice. I have not looked into Bergara yet. Thanks for mentioning them.

[Duces Tecum]

Based on recommendations of several friends, Caylen Wojcik's classes are excellent.
https://moderndaysniper.com/services/


An AAR . . . http://www.recoilweb.com/aar-caylens-precision-rifle-course-37479.html

[TOTS]

For ammo, I'll buy a selection and see what groups well in the rifle. I'm very happy shooting steel-cased Wolf out of my Glock at 7 to 10 yards, but cheaping out on ammo while I'm trying to shoot rifles would definitely be a false economy. As for scopes, I expect to spend about what the rifle costs. If I can find something good for a little less, that would be nice. Historically I've bought Leupolds, but I recently bought a Trijicon 1-6x.



The nearest Appleseed events look to be three hours drive from me, so that's very doable. All the T3x rifles use the same actions. The wasted material bothers me, but if I did want to get a larger caliber rifle later, having a gun with the same dimensions would be nice. I have not looked into Bergara yet. Thanks for mentioning them.

Hit me up when you get to the optic decision. I just spent about two years nerding out on optics. Now is the best it’s ever been regarding good optics for money spent.

ETA: right now, eurooptic has all barrel lengths of the CTR in .233 in stock for under $1K. Good price.

[okie john]

*Note: long-gun shooting is more affected by ammo selection than equipment, so, I would recommend a cheap build shooting high quality .22lr ammo setup over bulk pack .223 in an expensive build for learning. Nothing wastes money like trying to get results of any kind while shooting inconsistent ammo.

** Note 2: you can always handload and get a cheap rifle to shoot well with a good optic, but you will never get a great rifle to shoot any better than a cheap crappy optic will let you see. [I]Spend your money on the optic and ammo.

Quoted for truth.


Okie John

[MistWolf]

...run that bolt!...

This must not be ignored. Anyone can press the trigger of a bolt action rifle, but it does no good unless the shooter develops the skill to run the bolt with the rifle still mounted to the shoulder, preferably without lifting the face from the comb. Bolt action rifles feed more reliably when the bolt is run briskly. That means finding a bolt action with a robust bolt handle.

[OlongJohnson]

I like the T1x and T3 combo because they use the exact same stock. So all your positions/holds should work out the same. For me, Tikkas are the sweet spot of price/performance/features.

They also work well if you want to go down the rabbit hole of looneyism and do custom builds because the industry built up around custom barrels for Tikkas is well developed at this point. Want to do a 6mm Rem AI or a .257-6.5 AI wildcat? It'll work great, and the single-length action will let you work with in-between COAL better than almost any other rifle.

The argument that there's something inherently wrong with Tikka using the same action length for short- and long-action cartridges never really made sense to me. It's one of the lightest short actions you can buy OTS, so the weight argument is pretty empty. It's likely to be one of the most accurate rifles you can buy OTS in any chambering, so the accuracy argument is also empty. Being able to use the same chassis or stock on any Tikka action is a potential benefit. Being able to dial it in easily and inexpensively to work "just right" with 'tweener cartridges like those mentioned above, or most any "SA" cartridge loaded with really long, pointy bullets, is nearly unique and totally awesome.

The only thing I wish Tikka would change is making unbarreled actions with bolts available as stand-alone, the way Remington did with the 700. Would be nice to just buy a bare action and then get a barrel made to your specs and mount the assembly in your choice of chassis without having to sell a bunch of take-off stuff as used. And being able to do all that while skipping the gunsmith "accurizing" process that was typically regarded as necessary on Remingtons doesn't suck.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Classes for bolt gun - Randy Cain’s practical rifle class cones highly recommended. Gunsite has options as well.

Suggest doing an Appleseed class locally before either of the above.

PS - I have a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 - it’s nice but more analogous to a 30-30 lever gun.

The Howa and Ruger options are worth a look. Does Tikka still only use one action size for everything ?

Another option would be Bergara. It’s essentially a Remington 700 clone made better anything Remington Has made in the last 20 or 30 years.

https://www.raniersec.com/shop/bergara-premier-approach-223-rem-20-barrel-5-rds/

The price is suspiciously low. Some indication seller may be a scam: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/raniersec-com-anyone-ever-buy-from-them.359474/. Caution suggested.

[MickAK]

The price is suspiciously low. Some indication seller may be a scam: https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/raniersec-com-anyone-ever-buy-from-them.359474/. Caution suggested.

Yeah, that's a scam site. We had a thread about it in Coterie awhile back.

https://www.bbb.org/us/ak/anchorage/profile/not-elsewhere-classified/raniersec-1296-1000105551

I'm kinda pissed because I reported them when that thread came up and I have an Alaska LLC. I don't want that to be synonymous with scams. I'll try again.

[Jimichanga]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had not considered a .22LR. I've got lots of trigger time shooting an old Remington Model 510 Targetmaster (iron sights only and never at anything 100 yards away). For the moment, my eyesight is still good enough, that I could probably get some meaningful practice in with it. I was not aware of the NRL22, and it looks like a lot of fun. An impressive looking range 45 minutes from my house is listed on their website. I had no idea this range existed.

I have reasonably good access to rifle ranges. The state-operated 300 yard range near my house won't allow steel targets, but when I get home to visit my parents (hopefully monthly once the pandemic ends), I can set up whatever I like and shoot out to 1,000 yards. I already have a few rifle rated targets, and my parents' neighbor has a few more set up that I can use. I'm reasonably confident taking shots on standing game out to 100 yards off hand or from a knee. From a rest, I've never attempted anything beyond ~250 yards on game, and I've never shot at any target beyond 300 yards.

Regarding classes, I've taken plenty of pistol classes, but a rifle class isn't something I thought of. I'll definitely look into the suggestions

Thanks again for the advice.

I have a bolt gun problem myself in that I waste most of my money on them. I think it depends on where you are going to shoot and have range access. I find myself shooting my 22 trainer more than my 223 trainer just because it is easier to shoot at the range near me. The rimfire range has those little steel animals silhouettes out to 200 yards. It does not take much of a breeze to blow the 22s off the plate so you get some wind practice as well. If I had access to a private longer range where I could run the 223 out to distance without issue it might be different. Nice not to have to reload for the centerfire as well.

I think you are on the right track with the Tikka. I bought my kids a Tikka T1x and it is a great little gun with lots of aftermarket support. It shoots Eley Club (.16/round) very well. I dropped it in a KRG Bravo stock and it was off to the races. The NRL 22 matches are a great and cost effective way to get practice in. They put the course of fire out before hand so you can practice building the positions and dryfiring. Those little matches definitely help you get to know your rifle as you break and build positions on the clock.

I don't know where you are down south but Altus has training and l will second the Modern Day Sniper/Caylen Wojcik class if it is near you. I have taken a couple of his courses and the juice is worth the squeeze.

[Rick R]

Probably not what you’re thinking of but one day after dinner several years ago my wife and accomplice just pipes up with “You know that rifle the LGS has? I want to go buy it!”
Of course my answer was “Yes Ma’am!” and off we went. I had no idea which rifle had caught her fancy.
It ended up being the CZ 457 “Training Rifle” in .22lr with a military style tangent rear sight.

https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-457-training-rifle/

The little rifle is a barrel of fun and I’ve rung steel out to 200 yards with it. Really stretching the .22 out in whatever style rifle you want will teach you techniques that will translate into the real rifle you’re going to buy anyway.

[okie john]

Bolt action rifles feed more reliably when the bolt is run briskly. That means finding a bolt action with a robust bolt handle.

And a robust bolt stop. The Mauser is king here. Vanguards and anything else built on Howa actions have problems.


Okie John

[MistWolf]

And a robust bolt stop. The Mauser is king here. Vanguards and anything else built on Howa actions have problems.


Okie John

Can’t go wrong with a Mauser 98.

[OlongJohnson]

And a robust bolt stop. The Mauser is king here. Vanguards and anything else built on Howa actions have problems.

Okie John

Saving myself some typing by quoting old posts. Guess I've said it a few times now.


It continues to be a problem. It's the one wart on Howas. The [bolt stop] screw is defectively designed with a stress riser, and then made on a lathe of some kind (screw machine likely), putting circumferential grooves parallel to the stress riser. You can expect them to break.

One of the minor projects in my queue is to make a shoulder bushing and then use a rolled-thread, grade 12.9 socket head cap screw as the fastener. The additional protrusion will require inletting the stock for clearance, but I'm confident it will solve the strength issue.

I'm kinda surprised there isn't someone out there with a lathe selling this solution in kits for the low, low price of $35 or so, like the plugs for S&W revolvers.


Yeah, that factory screw is a BS defective part, the only wart on the rifle. It's designed with stress risers, and is additionally made on a screw machine (fancy lathe). It is subject to have circumferential tool marks to add "crack here" lines to the inherently bad design. There's a solution, though. Just needs a shoulder bushing machined for use with the appropriate metric socket head cap screw, which will be grade 12.9 with rolled threads and a proper underhead radius. Many, many times stronger than the OE setup. The stock would have to be inlet for the screw head. A little fiddly, but not difficult if you have lathe access.


I have one of those "Lightning" models in .223.

One slightly goofy detail (of the rifle, not the stock) is that the inner and outer surfaces of the bottom metal are approximately parallel, but the bottom metal is installed at an angle to the bottom of the receiver, which means the screw heads bear on the bottom metal at an angle. Totally bogus to a mechanical engineer who cares about threaded fastener joint design. The solution is to counterbore the bottom metal so the screws have seats that are perpendicular to the shanks. That situation is actually common in the industry; it's not unique to Howa.

If you're going to run the bolt really hard and fast, you may break the bolt stop screw. It's the one real unique wart on the whole rifle. It's a poorly-designed part and most of them are defectively machined with "crack here" rings all around them. I have designed an upgrade for that ("designed" = buy a properly-manufactured screw and make notes for dimensions of a shoulder bushing), but it's a low priority given the status of the rest of my project at this point.

If you go down the rabbit hole, there are two or more companies now making "Howage" barrel setups with a barrel nut so you can swap barrels yourself, as with a Savage.

If you click through to the original posts, I also discuss stock fit and optic mounting. Tikka wins on all three points.

Current status: My Howas went down the road during the dempanic cleanout. Sold three Howas, bought one Tikka Superlite stainless in .223 as an understudy for a T3 Lite stainless in .308. Interested in a T1x shorty in .22LR, but I already money-pitted a Savage that is essentially the same thing, so that's hard to justify.

[flyrodr]

Last year I bought a Bergara Ridge SP in 6.5CM, and enjoy it. I recently wanted a cheaper-to-shoot practice bolt gun (have other .22 semis), and got the Bergara BMR, planning on it serving double duty as my grandson's trainer in a couple of years. It is (was) small and light (5 lbs), until I put a 6-24X scope and bipod on it; now it's closer to 8 lbs. Still, it's serving its purpose very well.

Ammo is available, from bulk to match, and I can easily compare one to the other, both in group size and placement. And, the local county indoor range has a 100-yd bay, so I can shoot there all winter, for free (Bless the county fathers. Local LEOs needed a new training area, including classrooms. Some land was available, there was lobbying to make it available to the taxpayers, and the county was "progressive" in a good way.

Anyway, the .22 (and some local competitive shooters) has helped me fix problems I didn't realize I had, such as consistently loading the bipod, consistent hand/thumb placement and pressure, same for cheek, and particularly so for the trigger press, something I thought I had down pretty well from pistol shooting. As the saying goes, "Learning has occurred." And, by golly, shooting a .22 is just plain fun.

Best group ever today, with SK Rifle Match ammo, at 100 yds. If I used Ballistic X correctly, it was 0.441"