1911 Lowered and flared ejection ports- ability to eject a live round?

[Rmiked]

I have been reading some old posts here about these things. I have a DW Specialist in 10mm and it ejects a live round fine (although I don’t do that unless needing to empty pistol). It ejects snap caps real well. The DW has a lowered and flared ejection port. Am I understanding the true military spec 1911s (JMB design) is not intended to eject live rounds easily? Because the pistol is designed to shoot and eject empty cases? What is the rationale here? Also some have written there may be some inherent risk of the ejector hitting a primer and igniting a live round IF ejecting live rounds. Is that possible? It looks to me like the ejector is off-center to the left (looking from behind pistol) and not capable of hitting the primer. I am not very experienced with 1911s and appreciate the wealth of knowledge here. Thanks

[45dotACP]

One of the risks of extended 1911 ejectors is the detonation of which you speak. I haven't seen a great many GI type 1911s with extended ejectors though. It has been known to happen however, especially with guns that have the longer ejectors (usually ones with shorter slides or that aren't .45 ACP)

The main reason I use a "slingshot" method of racking the slide on a chambered semi auto pistol is out of concern for an ejector striking the primer and detonating a cartridge while my hand is above the ejection port. I don't think it's a problem unique to 1911s, so my way of racking the slide is the same for all semi autos.

The GI style ejectors however, are quite short, so that's probably why they won't eject live rounds, but I can't imagine them detonating a cartridge either, as they tend to be a little less pointy.

[farscott]

When JMB designed the 1911 pistol, not much thought was given to what we now term administrative handling of the pistol or reusing fired brass. Sure, the US Army asked for the addition of the thumb safety, but no one was too concerned about how to unload the weapon or what to do with brass other than making sure it was removed from the range after firing. There was concern about mud and dirt getting into the pistol. As such, the ejection port is small, sized just enough to eject an empty case. An unfired round usually will fall out through the magazine well with the original port. A fired case will eject, often with a dent from the slide found on the case mouth.

Later the ejection of man unfired round became more important and reloaders did not want brass with dents, and the ejection port was lengthened to allow an unfired round to clear the port. The port was also lowered and flared to prevent cases from striking the slide and being dented.

As for an unfired round hitting the ejector and firing during the manual ejection process, it can happen. It happened to me with my .40 SVI Limited 10 pistol. Do NOT try to catch a round you are ejecting from a 1911 pistol by placing your hand over the ejection port as we used to do. It does have a short ejector as I used .40 "loaded long" to increase magazine feed reliability.

[Rmiked]

Wow! I have put my hand over the ejection port to catch an unfired round. I will not do that anymore. Thanks

[Caballoflaco]

Rmiked watch these two videos on the development of the Colt 1900 and 1902 (predecessors of the Colt 1911) to get a good idea of how much the designers and end users didn’t know when they were inventing auto loading pistols. One day we’ll get a video on the 1911 from the guys @C&Rsenal, but since they do things in chronological order we’ve got a few models left to go.

ETA: yes they’re long, but trust me it’s worth it if you’re interested in the actual engineering of the guns and how things got to where they are.


https://youtu.be/bK2YpKuSiC8


https://youtu.be/fNNtkUGVH5s

[Rmiked]

Thanks. I will watch them right now

[JohnO]

Wow! I have put my hand over the ejection port to catch an unfired round. I will not do that anymore. Thanks

I have been taught the technique of catching a manually ejected live round. Emphasis was put on cupping the catching hand and rolling the gun over so gravity allowed the round to fall into the free space created in the cupped hand. It was stressed that clamping the catching/slide manipulating hand over the ejection port with no space for the live round to fall into was a bad thing.

This technique probably originated at Gunsite during Col. Cooper's days. It was Chuck Taylor who taught this technique to me. I'm sure I have seen it done many hundreds of times without incident.

[JHC]

I have been taught the technique of catching a manually ejected live round. Emphasis was put on cupping the catching hand and rolling the gun over so gravity allowed the round to fall into the free space created in the cupped hand. It was stressed that clamping the catching/slide manipulating hand over the ejection port with no space for the live round to fall into was a bad thing.

This technique probably originated at Gunsite during Col. Cooper's days. It was Chuck Taylor who taught this technique to me. I'm sure I have seen it done many hundreds of times without incident.

Ken Hackathorn demo'd it that way in the class I took from him as well.

[JohnO]

Ken Hackathorn demo'd it that way in the class I took from him as well.

Same here. It was a 1911 class instructed by Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn.

I hemmed and hawed about taking the class. I wasn't crazy about two aspects. I had trained with LAV before and figured it would be the same drills perhaps tweaked some because it was 1911 specific. #2 was typically that class was 1 day on the range and one day classroom detail stripping the 1911 and some lecture.

So I procrastinated but I really wanted to train with Ken. Then the class filled. I was in the DFW airport checking the interwebs and saw the class was full. Somehow I also ran across James Yeager blowing his horn about registering for a Vickers/Hackathorn 1911 class. So I joked to my friends that Yeager took my spot. The class being full solved my dilemma.

This was right when the guy running Alias Training skipped with may of the trainer's money. So things were in turmoil. The registration opened again and my buddy who was hosting told me the class was going to be 2 days on the range and they booked a hotel conference room for an abbreviated nighttime classroom session. So I threw caution to the wind and signed up.

There were over 50 in the class here in CT and people came from as far as South Africa. It was a great class and I spent a lot of time picking Ken's brain.

82078

There was a wedding party in the hotel that night. Occasionally a guest would wander into our conference room and see 50+ people with guns. ;)

[Elwin]

I've also been using what apparently is the Cooper/Taylor/Hackathorn technique and I'm also comfortable with it. In addition to leaving plenty of space in my hand for the round to fall into, I'm firmly grasping the slide and holding it all the way to the rear until I have the round completely clear of it. After the round falls into my hand, I wrap my fingers around it to "secure" it and then move my fingers away from the ejection port as I begin to ease the slide forward. I try to be methodical enough that I consciously think "I have it" once it's grasped and only move on after that. This dovetails well with making sure every live round is accounted for and placed safely, since I'm normally clearing a gun to clean it or dry fire it and the priority is leaving all the ammo in a designated space.

But I also totally get why someone would skip all that and just clear guns a different way to avoid the problem.

[JHC]

JohnO

Ken on multiple occassions during our class in context: "Is this dangerous? Yes. Is is unsafe? No, not if you do it correctly." Gave me a grin every time.

I do get the rationale behind just jacking out the round and letting it fly and that's actually my more common method now and how I cleared a pistol in matches at the end of the stage. But when I use Ken's method I'm quite deliberately precise with it.

[DDTSGM]

Same here. It was a 1911 class instructed by Larry Vickers & Ken Hackathorn.

The registration opened again and my buddy who was hosting told me the class was going to be 2 days on the range and they booked a hotel conference room for an abbreviated nighttime classroom session. So I threw caution to the wind and signed up.

There were over 50 in the class here in CT and people came from as far as South Africa. It was a great class and I spent a lot of time picking Ken's brain.

Fifty shooters. Two days. Two instructors. I'd pass. A strategy might be to do something that is just short of getting kicked out of class so they keep their eyes on you. But I'd pass.

I appreciate the info though; I had signed up for that class in Texas as the pandemic hit, if he runs them that full, I won't be signing up again.

[JohnO]

Fifty shooters. Two days. Two instructors. I'd pass. A strategy might be to do something that is just short of getting kicked out of class so they keep their eyes on you. But I'd pass.

I appreciate the info though; I had signed up for that class in Texas as the pandemic hit, if he runs them that full, I won't be signing up again.

In defense of Larry & Ken they had no idea what to expect nor did they know if they were going to get paid for the class. The Alias guy, (if you know, you know) Paul had screwed them.

[BillSWPA]

While I have not normally tried to catch the ejected round, the method of doing so seems quite close to a commonly taught method of getting more of a hand on the slide to compensate for lack of strength. Since I have typically worked with a disproportionate number of shooters with hand or wrist issues, and since Farscott actually experienced a discharge when ejecting a live cartridge, I will have to re-evaluate what I teach them.


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[Rmiked]

I liked what John O described above.

To eject a live round what I have done is hold pistol with right hand (I am right handed) , grab the rear cocking serrations with thumb and index finger of left hand, form a cup with the other 3 fingers of left hand. Then I rotate the pistol so the ejection port is pointed toward the ground. I rack the slide rearward slowly and let the live round fall into my cupped left hand. I never imagined the ejector could ignite the primer when ejection a live round. I’m guessing the slower you move the slide rearward, the less likely the round can be discharged? Is the method I just described a “safe way” to eject a live round?

[45dotACP]

I liked what John O described above.

To eject a live round what I have done is hold pistol with right hand (I am right handed) , grab the rear cocking serrations with thumb and index finger of left hand, form a cup with the other 3 fingers of left hand. Then I rotate the pistol so the ejection port is pointed toward the ground. I rack the slide rearward slowly and let the live round fall into my cupped left hand. I never imagined the ejector could ignite the primer when ejection a live round. I’m guessing the slower you move the slide rearward, the less likely the round can be discharged? Is the method I just described a “safe way” to eject a live round?Everyone knows that if you wanna impress the chicks, you slingshot and catch the bullet midair ;)

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[JAH 3rd]

I had the same thought….slow things down and safely eject the round. Slow equals better control of the pistol and ejected round. Now if the scenario is a dud round in a self-defense situation, then eject that dud with all due haste!

[Catshooter]

Everyone knows that if you wanna impress the chicks, you slingshot and catch the bullet midair ;) In your teeth, if you're a real man.

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[secondstoryguy]

There has been a million different specs for the 1911 and I've seen more than one run perfectly but not eject live rounds out the ejection port. I think a properly built and tuned modern duty/defense 1911 should have this capability(normal ejection of live rounds out the port), especially when considering that we do a tap-rack(or at minimum a rack) when we have a dud round. I'm no expert but I started tinkering and building 1911s back in the late 80s and this was problematic on a few specific guns.

Extractor hook spacing off the breech face is one major culprit as the gun will run ok ejecting empty casings but when trying to eject a live round the rim of the round slides forward in the extractor and the additional length created by this sliding causes the OAL to increase. This causes the tip of the round to catch on the edge of the ejection port. The right solution for this is to refit and tune a new extractor with proper spacing of the hook from the breech face. I've seen shoddy smiths go nuts with removing material from the leading edge of the ejection port to solve this (and sometimes this needs to be done) but a lot of the time the extractor is the issue.

Some of the time I've seen them eject ball but when the ogive or length of the round is different it hangs up. If the extractor is set up right sometimes you might have to take a bit of material to mitigate this. It sometimes ends up looking weird because depending on the amount of material removed you can sometimes almost see the barrel link.

It's just the way it is when a specific gun design has been around for over 100 years....everyone has there version of what the spec is suppose to be....

[HCM]

Everyone knows that if you wanna impress the chicks, you slingshot and catch the bullet midair ;)

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You mean if you want to get kicked off the range for flagging other shooters while you are busy fucking around trying to catch the round...

[HCM]

JohnO

Ken on multiple occassions during our class in context: "Is this dangerous? Yes. Is is unsafe? No, not if you do it correctly." Gave me a grin every time.

I do get the rationale behind just jacking out the round and letting it fly and that's actually my more common method now and how I cleared a pistol in matches at the end of the stage. But when I use Ken's method I'm quite deliberately precise with it.

Rounds are consumables. That piece of kabuki gun theater is gonna be a big no from me.

[DDTSGM]

I liked what John O described above.

To eject a live round what I have done is hold pistol with right hand (I am right handed) , grab the rear cocking serrations with thumb and index finger of left hand, form a cup with the other 3 fingers of left hand. Then I rotate the pistol so the ejection port is pointed toward the ground. I rack the slide rearward slowly and let the live round fall into my cupped left hand. I never imagined the ejector could ignite the primer when ejection a live round. I’m guessing the slower you move the slide rearward, the less likely the round can be discharged? Is the method I just described a “safe way” to eject a live round?

We told our student officers to eject the live round onto a soft surface if possible, but make no attempt to catch the live round, and especially do not cover the ejection port with any part of your hand.

Here's what I demo'ed in class to new recruits when talking about this subject: Take recoil spring out of pistol. (with recoil spring inserted you might lose control of the slide) With slide off frame hold barrel in place on locking block - identify ejector in case they forgot. So how a live duty-round can end up with primer over ejector. Replace slide w/o recoil spring and demo same with slide on.

Regardless of what KH says, if you can't safely do it at night, with gloves on, weapon oily, hands slick, maybe shaking a bit (even though this is an admin procedure) 'I' do not believe it is a safe procedure.

[RevolverRob]

Typically, if you pull the slide back on a 1911, at a relatively even pace, instead of sharply, a live round held by the extractor will bump the ejector and fall through the empty mag well. Smart folks might do that over a relatively soft surface, if they want to save the round. Why run a live round through the ejection port during administrative handling? Doing malfunction drills? Sure, whatever.

But when I'm admin unloading MOST pistols you can do precisely this technique. And hey you know what else happens then? If you didn't eject the mag, you typically induce a malfunction. It's an extra check on your administrative handling to confirm you removed the thing holding the ammo.

PS: I should have made this clearer. You grasp the slide exactly like you'll slingshot load, with NO portion of the hand over the ejection port. And pull the slide to the rear at an even and relatively slow pace. This is precisely the same motion you'd do to "launch your round into the air" to catch it. Except you go at a slower pace. It bumps the ejector and falls out the mag well. It's the same motion you'd use on a tap-rack malfunction drill. I don't really understand changing your overall movements when a mere change of pace will do.

[Caballoflaco]

I did the hand over the ejection port thing when I started out on 1911’s, until I had a round get trapped between the barrel hood and breach face a couple of times. Nothing ever went boom, but I stopped doing it after that. Hands and nerves don’t grow back and my left index finger is already permanently numb form a bad cut. The risk doesn’t justify the possible injury for me. A bunched up towel on a counter or bed or chair catch rounds fine for administrative handling at home. On the range I just let em hit the deck.

If we’re arguing about what instructors say there was a video where Clint Smith said he’d seen 4 or 5 guys catch shrapnel in the hands using this method in the range; unfortunately it’s been taken down due to copyright.

[Jim Watson]

My USGI 1911 (1918 with AA rework) will eject hardball for ULSC quite well.
You have to blame something besides the ejection port size and shape.
Bullet style? OK, I'll try SWC and JHP the next time I have the safe open.
My money is on the modern habit of putting .38 length ejectors in .45s.

Which also contributes to:
At an IDPA Nationals, I heard a muffled Blap! from the bay I was just leaving and turned to see a guy looking at his bleeding hand. He had done the hand over ejection port trick and paid for it. Somebody carted him to the ER and he presently returned, hand heavily bandaged, to spectate.

[JHC]

Rounds are consumables. That piece of kabuki gun theater is gonna be a big no from me.

Speaking of kabuki it’s the catching the ejected round popped up in the air I’ve never fooled with. :)

[HCM]

Speaking of kabuki it’s the catching the ejected round popped up in the air I’ve never fooled with. :)

That is the only thing I have both kicked someone off the range for and formally written them up for at work.

[Rmiked]

I have done the “live round cycle thru ejection port” sequence and done it slowly as I previously described, cupping hand over port. I am wanting to completely understand how the ejector hits the primer. The ejector is located off center left (looking down) of firing pin hole. Is it the rotation of cartridge base , induced by the extractor rotating the cartridge clockwise (looking down) that permits the ejector to strike the primer? If the primer moves left (looking down) before it is rearward enough to hit ejector, that seems possible. It does seem like removing magazine and slowly pulling slide back (slingshot style) and allowing live round to drop thru magazine hole , is safest method after reading these responses. Before posting this question I never considered it possible the ejector could ignite a primer. I appreciate the wealth of experience here on PF.

[45dotACP]

That is the only thing I have both kicked someone off the range for and formally written them up for at work.All jokes aside, I have seen folks DQ'ed for that trick and I personally consider it unsafe and I let the round drop.

If I find it later, that's fine. But it's not concern number one. And whatever chicks dig is irrelevant since I got married this year lol

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[JTQ]

Here is Ernest Langdon with a Beretta. Go to about the :30 mark and he'll comment on problems with trying to cup the live round out of the ejection port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VP4X6FVa4E

There is a similar Clint Smith video with a 1911 somewhere where he makes the same point, but I can't find it now.*

On some modern models, Colt has extended the opening of their ejection ports further forward to make ejecting live rounds easier. I do think it is probably something that is less an issue for a GI length ejector since the case/ejector contact point will be farther back and will give you almost all of the ejection port space rather than an extended ejector that will eat up some of the space available in the ejection port.




Edit to add: * I believe the YouTube subject was Administrative Reload

[Rmiked]

Well that’s another person that has seen the ejector setting off a primer. I’m glad I started this thread. Might have saved me a damaged hand. I won’t be cupping my hand over the ejection port anymore. I’ll continue to move slide slowly. And it seems removing the magazine and letting it drop thru is a good option. Preferably on something soft.

[JTQ]

I haven't used the "drop through the mag well" technique, but I've had better success with using more speed rather than less speed cycling the slide to eject a live round. I just yank the slide and let the round fly.

[Rmiked]

Doesn’t yanking it at higher speed make it more likely for the ejector to ignite the primer? Or if you don’t have an extended ejector it really is unlikely? I don’t know the difference between what an extended ejector and “standard ejector” looks like. My Dan Wesson Specialist in 10mm has whatever DW put on it. I wonder if it is what is called a GI ejector?

[JTQ]

My experience is with Colt and a standard, non-extended Colt ejector. There are pictures of various ejectors in this thread. The Colt and Army Ordnance ejectors are very similar.

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/defender-ejector.414798/

I eject live rounds periodically, but if I'm doing some kind of training that requires cycling the slide, with a round chambered, I'm using snap caps for that and not live rounds.

[Rmiked]

Same here. I eject live rounds from time to time. But for training I use snap caps.

[That Guy]

Doesn’t yanking it at higher speed make it more likely for the ejector to ignite the primer?

I don't see how that would be the case, since as long as the cartridge is undergoing the normal ejection cycle the ejector should not contact the primer. Out of chamber detonations become an issue only when the live round fails to clear the ejection port before the slide goes forward. Can you clarify what your concern is with faster racking?

To go back to the root issue, the problem with ejecting a live round is that if the slide goes forward when a live round is halfway in the ejection port, the possibility exists that the round gets pinched between the slide and the ejector, with the ejector striking the primer in the same manner as a firing pin would. That is the reason cupping ones hand over the ejection port is discouraged - if you do it the wrong way you can create an obstacle that prevents the round from getting clear of the gun, and simultaneously should you experience an ejector initiated cartridge detonation your hand is right there to receive all the hot gases and metal shards from the ruptured case.

[Rmiked]

Well that clears it up for me. I was thinking the ejector should not contact the primer if the slide is moving rearward but reading people’s experience it sounded like it had happened. I assumed the extractor was rotating the cartridge such that the primer was moving toward the ejector. If the danger only exists when a stuck live round is being pushed forward by the slide (breech face) then as long as you keep the slide back it should be safe to cup your hand over the ejection port? I’m still uncomfortable with doing that since there are methods that work that don’t require putting your hand over the ejection port. My concern about racking the slide faster is that more speed is more likely to set off primer if contact is made with the ejector.

[4RNR]

Well that’s another person that has seen the ejector setting off a primer. I’m glad I started this thread. Might have saved me a damaged hand. I won’t be cupping my hand over the ejection port anymore. I’ll continue to move slide slowly. And it seems removing the magazine and letting it drop thru is a good option. Preferably on something soft.Why not just catch the mag? Hit the release and catch the mag with your other hand under the grip

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[shane45]

Hes talking about letting the live round drop through, not the mag.