View Full Version : PCC, why bother?
Clusterfrack
GJM
If you guys don’t mind, I would love to have this discussion:
No argument here -- I use a Rattler, 1301/M2, or 5.56 AR carbine. The difference between a service pistol with a dot and a PCC isn't enough for me to deal with the size and considerations of a PCC for defense.
A pistol caliber may be attractive for people that are not skilled with a handgun, or are worried about concussion.
A few thoughts: I don’t shoot PCC, and don’t own one for at least two reasons. I’ll set aside my opinions about PCC as a legitimate USPSA division, and the level of difficulty of PCC classification for a different thread.
1) A reliable gamer PCC is rare, and while the MPX fails regularly, so do all PCCs I’ve seen. Even PCC GMs at Area matches don’t look surprised when their guns fail.
2. (Possibly controversial Timmy reason): At a certain level of skill with a handgun, especially with RDS, a semi-auto PCC is not an advantage anymore.
But why bother when rifle caliber pistols or SBRs work better in every way?
I agree with you both for the utility (or lack thereof) aspect.
Here are my reasons for “why bother” with PCC.
Training and having a comparative skill metric with a long gun analogue.
Just like shooting a 45 ounce gamer pistol, 130PF ammo and reloading with basepad extensions, it’s just part of the game and basic skills translate over pretty well to 20 ounce self defense guns with hotter ammo.
I see the same reasoning for training / gaming with a PCC. I can train high volume with Syntech in a PCC and have leadless primers so I’m not getting increased toxicity. I can use it on a pistol range and I can use it on training steel at closer distances without fragging myself and damaging my targets.
So while my actual self defense choices may be different than my gaming choices, if I keep similar grip angles and manuals of arms I get muscle memory with malfunction clearing, height over bore and holdover issues at differing distances and the ability to compare myself against a database.
For pistol, it’s been motivating for improvement and I find I can apply that to carry equipment fairly seamlessly.
My thought is that if I trained with my X95 9mm in PCC, I’d be better skilled with my 5.56 X95. The last outlaw match I ran both back to back and it was informative.
MPX to MCX would be similar thoughts. I’m resisting the JP because I don’t anticipate changing my home defense rifle to an AR platform. Yet.
So not PCC for PCC sake, just for training analog for improvement.
Clusterfrack
12-28-2021, 01:23 PM
Makes sense: PCC as a practice platform for a real rifle caliber. Like a .22 conversion with recoil.
Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.
Clusterfrack
12-28-2021, 01:27 PM
(I’m lucky in having a good local carbine match with challenging terrain and targets to 350yds.)
Zincwarrior
12-28-2021, 01:28 PM
*There are far less places where you can rapid fire a carbine.
*9mm is far cheaper.
*PCCs are less loud.
*I can run around a stage with a PCC. There are far fewer carbine matches.
Makes sense: PCC as a practice platform for a real rifle caliber. Like a .22 conversion with recoil.
Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.
I guess the flip side is that I’d have to clear more malfunctions with 22LR ammo just inherent to the rimfire.
My X95 may not be the most competitive, but it is crazy reliable. I don’t clean it or adjust anything and it runs and runs and runs. Like it’s probably one of the most maintenance free firearms I own.
(I’m lucky in having a good local carbine match with challenging terrain and targets to 350yds.)
See, I don’t hunt and for my narrow self defense theoretical application I have no interest in shooting farther than 50 yards. So I don’t really want a rifle for rifle things. I kind of want an SMG type thing for CQB. IDPA stages with an SBR is kind of how I would envision using a Rattler if I ever needed to for home defense.
OlongJohnson
12-28-2021, 01:44 PM
I can train high volume with Syntech in a PCC and have leadless primers so I’m not getting increased toxicity.
Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.
DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.
Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.
DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.
Good point, I’m wondering if all lead free primers are not created equal.
The Federal unleaded primers are supposedly non-toxic and heavy metal free.
Wondering if what the Swedish military used was different?
OlongJohnson
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.outdoorlife.com/cartridge-primer-technology-developments/%3Famp
81975
Looks like it was designed to be less toxic per government request.
Lead-free primers just means lead-free. It does not mean non-toxic.
DAS, because I'm too lazy to dig it up yet again, but the metal compounds used in lead-free primers have been demonstrated to have significantly greater short-term toxicity than lead. If I recall correctly, it was a Swedish military training activity that found personnel were suffering from the toxicity when using lead-free ammo indoors during winter training.
Are you sure it was the primers. The U.S. military uses lead free frangible ammo with bullets made of compressed copper powder. The base local to me has has instructors come down with "Copper fume fever" - a collection of flu like symptoms usually found in Copper miners and smelters resulting from excessive exposure to copper dust or aerosolized copper.
Clusterfrack
12-28-2021, 02:43 PM
My X95 may not be the most competitive, but it is crazy reliable. I don’t clean it or adjust anything and it runs and runs and runs. Like it’s probably one of the most maintenance free firearms I own.
See, I don’t hunt and for my narrow self defense theoretical application I have no interest in shooting farther than 50 yards. So I don’t really want a rifle for rifle things.
That’s been my experience with my Tavor SAR. It’s just so freaking heavy.
A carbine is my weapon of choice for a fight against multiple opponents, that may occur or evolve outside a structure. This includes Katrina level unrest. Around my home, it’s hard to imagine a fight outside of 100yds. In the backcountry, who knows? I once deployed (did not fire) a carbine in my underwear when some monster truck assholes drove up to my tent and gunned the engine.
CleverNickname
12-28-2021, 02:53 PM
I have several PCCs, including a radial-delayed CMMG SBR that I built specifically for USPSA. But I've only shot it in a few matches because every time I go shoot it, my thought is that I should be instead spending the time/money/ammo to get better at shooting handguns. The probability is much higher that I'd use a handgun in self-defense than a long gun, so it makes the most sense to concentrate on handguns. I guess that makes me a Timmy?
Glenn E. Meyer
12-28-2021, 02:55 PM
Idiosyncratic for me. There are no carbine matches with 223 around here, unlike TX (yes, I moved, personal). You can shoot a 'normal' gun like a Ruger PCC (with no threaded barrel) and not some Frankenstein gun to meet our stupid laws. Said gun is also useful in home defense and as I've said - my goal in matches is maintaining skill level for fun and SD uses. I'm not going to win anymore. Ammo is less expensive, easy to shoot.
Thus a Ruger with an optic in the local USPSA works for me. It's fun and practice with the gun, so that's why I would bother. There were a fair number of folks running 9mm AR-ish and Rugers in TX for the IDPA matches (IDPA - horrors, horrors!).
I once deployed (did not fire) a carbine in my underwear when some monster truck assholes drove up to my tent and gunned the engine.
Hey baby, want to see the carbine in my underwear? :D
I can deploy it on command. Hahahaha
I have several PCCs, including a radial-delayed CMMG SBR that I built specifically for USPSA. But I've only shot it in a few matches because every time I go shoot it, my thought is that I should be instead spending the time/money/ammo to get better at shooting handguns. The probability is much higher that I'd use a handgun in self-defense than a long gun, so it makes the most sense to concentrate on handguns. I guess that makes me a Timmy?
I hear you. I’m much, much better with a handgun than a long gun so part of me thinks I should be better balanced.
It was the reason for me to spend time with handguns over shotguns and rifles from a self defense probability standpoint.
I’d be fine with being GM in pistol and a real M in PCC in terms of distribution of skill.
I primarily train with pistols and while that helps with long gun proficiency there is no substitute for recency. Running a PCC as a second gun in USPSA/IDPA gets me handling a long gun more often in close range situations which look more like my real world use for a long gun than 100 yard plus 2 gun or 3 gun stages.
My original reason for buying a Colt 9mm AR was the nearest / most accessible range at that time only allowed pistol caliber long guns.
Though the Colt 9mm recoils more than a 5.56, it's cheaper to shoot than 5.56 and I can safely shoot steel with it at much shorter distances.
Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.
Glenn E. Meyer
12-28-2021, 03:09 PM
Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.
Well, at least one left! Hahaha! We had a tight little squad, were we weird? We did have funny squad shirts!
Well, at least one left! Hahaha! We had a tight little squad, were we weird? We did have funny squad shirts!
No, rule nazis and fudds are part of the normal "competition shooter" demographic. Even the brass rat who wandered into JM Campbell's line of fire during a stage.
I'm referring to people who are their to train for their version of the civil war/race war / Boogaloo, i.e. those who want only their ethnicity armed, those who want your rifle to become our rifle "our rifle, Comrade" etc
For what ever reason they don't come to the regular IDPA matches but the carbine match draws them like flies. They try to hide it but they are easy to spot if you know what (or who) you are looking at.
OlongJohnson
12-28-2021, 04:27 PM
Are you sure it was the primers. The U.S. military uses lead free frangible ammo with bullets made of compressed copper powder. The base local to me has has instructors come down with "Copper fume fever" - a collection of flu like symptoms usually found in Copper miners and smelters resulting from excessive exposure to copper dust or aerosolized copper.
May not have been the primers.
This abstract discusses metal toxicity, in particular from copper and zinc, which are the components of jacket material regardless of primer or propellant. I could see how a frangible bullet might release more Cu particulates on its journey down the barrel.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277781688_Comparing_Acute_Toxicity_of_Gunshot_Part icles_from_Firing_Conventional_and_Lead-Free_Ammunition_in_Pulmonary_Epithelial_Cell_Cultu res
Passage in here suggests it may not have been the metals in the military training scenario. And Norway, not Sweden.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19116438
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2012/04/25/Norway-orders-lead-free-ammunition/87161335383393/
This one is focusing on propellant. Notes the compounds cited in the Norwegian experience discussed previously.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/prep.201200021
------------
Related tangent: There was a new indoor range put up a few years ago, located extremely conveniently for me. At first, the ventilation was awesome. But they have not maintained the equipment well, and the AQ has decayed to the point that it's not much better than many others around town. I had a sweetheart deal on membership due to signing up pre-opening, but I let it lapse due to the AQ, among other things. Last time I went, I got kinda used to the smell before my session was over, but noticed I could still smell it a couple hours after leaving.
It's Athena or Saddle River for me from now on, if shooting indoors in Houston.
Hot Wells has shut down everything but shotgun. I should take some skeet lessons.
May not have been the primers.
This abstract discusses metal toxicity, in particular from copper and zinc, which are the components of jacket material regardless of primer or propellant. I could see how a frangible bullet might release more Cu particulates on its journey down the barrel.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277781688_Comparing_Acute_Toxicity_of_Gunshot_Part icles_from_Firing_Conventional_and_Lead-Free_Ammunition_in_Pulmonary_Epithelial_Cell_Cultu res
Passage in here suggests it may not have been the metals in the military training scenario. And Norway, not Sweden.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19116438
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2012/04/25/Norway-orders-lead-free-ammunition/87161335383393/
This one is focusing on propellant. Notes the compounds cited in the Norwegian experience discussed previously.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/prep.201200021
------------
Related tangent: There was a new indoor range put up a few years ago, located extremely conveniently for me. At first, the ventilation was awesome. But they have not maintained the equipment well, and the AQ has decayed to the point that it's not much better than many others around town. I had a sweetheart deal on membership due to signing up pre-opening, but I let it lapse due to the AQ, among other things. Last time I went, I got kinda used to the smell before my session was over, but noticed I could still smell it a couple hours after leaving.
It's Athena or Saddle River for me from now on, if shooting indoors in Houston.
Hot Wells has shut down everything but shotgun. I should take some skeet lessons.
In the early 90s I remember going to a couple of the older indoor range is in the New York area where the most commonly fired rounds were lead 38 special reloads. Suffice to say an hour or so on those ranges and when you blew your nose it would be black or gray….
mmc45414
12-28-2021, 06:01 PM
I always say that my 9mm CMMG is the dumbest thing I ever loved. I decided I wanted a PCC, to shoot more for cheaper. Back then I was shooting mostly forty, and there was really no practical way to get one setup in forty. So I caved and got a 9mm, and this is when I was shooting forty, so it felt kinda icky to not only be getting one, but getting it in 9mm.
Then I started shooting it. I would take it out and we would shoot some of the same steel strings we had setup for pistol, and it was a shitload of fun, and really helped get a good take on what circumstances a carbine really helped (this was way before slide mounted optics were common man stuff). We could shoot the same ammo we had on hand and the simple targets we had on hand. And I may have mentioned this, but it was a shitload of fun. And it wasn't so damn loud, and we could shoot steel closer than you could without high dollar targets AND (ETA: high dollar) frangible ammo.
I sorta actually dislike the 5.56 cartridge, it just seems like ten pounds of shit (pressure) in a five pound bag (16" barrel). And sure, you can get a two stamp setup for a 11.5" with a can, but that is still not hearing safe, my 9mm is pretty mellow. My 9mm actually helped spark some of my interest in 300BO, that might be the sweet spot of barrel length and blast.
I think it also gets sold a little short for defensive use, especially for less experienced users. Do we really expect a new gun owner to keep their composure after launching off a 50k PSI cartridge out of a 16" barrel indoors? Sounds to me like the old time stories about the officers trained on 38s flipping out when they shoot 357. If 9mm is reasonably effective out of a pistol it is going to be more reasonably effective out a carbine that is easier to hit with.
Plus you get practice clearing lots of malfunctions.
I think the 9mm AR is probably suffering the same game gun fate as pistols (was 1911, now probably Glocks) that are victims of people who are not even shooting all that well throwing parts at them that would gain a Grand Master a few tenths.
I bought my CMMG (not a game gun) as separate upper and lower, I originally planned to use a mag well insert but found a lower at what was a good deal during one of the Obama frenzies. I put them together and figured I was good to go, but the thing wouldn't run for shit. And back then there was not much advice on the dang ol internet, but I searched and searched, and finally found a reference to "tuning" the extractor. This means grabbing it with pliers and bending it until it nests up in the BCG where it needs to be. I made one adjustment and the damn thing has never (other than obvious ammo problems) ever failed. This is with the Colt style magazines, when I did this the Glock magazine lowers were new and exotic, by the time they were readily available I didn't have any Glocks and had plenty of Colt style magazines (the ones from Brownells are great).
So I am a huge fanboi, but will admit that when I bought the thing I felt like I was buying a dildo or something..
Bergeron
12-28-2021, 08:36 PM
There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:
1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities
2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches
3) Low cost-per-round training
4) Quiet shooting/Low blast
5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets
6) More accessible to low experience shooters
7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns
What else do we have?
DrkBlue
12-28-2021, 09:12 PM
There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:
1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities
2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches
3) Low cost-per-round training
4) Quiet shooting/Low blast
5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets
6) More accessible to low experience shooters
7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns
What else do we have?
I think you nailed it. #3 and #4 are my biggest drivers, e.g., just more fun to shoot.
At my club, we have pistol caliber only outdoor range bays. That was what pushed me to PCCs…
My problem is I have been chasing the dragon for a decade plus - with PCCs moving from simply a rifle analogue to now desiring the perfect PCC.
On the Timmy scale, I decided that shooting a PCC inside a vehicle or structure is much preferred to a rifle cartridge.
Also PCCs are much easier to suppress, which goes to the #6 accessibility issue. Once you suppress a rifle cartridge, it ruins you.
Clusterfrack
12-28-2021, 09:17 PM
Plus one of the two local carbine matches attracts a lot of very weird people who are, lets just say, not your normal competitive shooter types.
Oh, yeah. Same here. Fortunately most of the truly oddball tactards at my carbine match aren’t regulars, or I can mostly avoid squadding with them. Mostly.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211229/4e0d5c63354929f13e6efa78471c6b8c.jpg
Glenn E. Meyer
12-28-2021, 10:14 PM
That's true. There was a giant turnout some days of folks I've never seen before with all the gear. Some of the decals on the trucks were not in particularly good taste. As I said, we developed a squad of guys and the match directed indulged us sticking together.
One guy who runs some Frankenstein NY compliant 9mm AR-oid should be called: Dr. Jammer! Have to wait till the weather breaks to go outside again as the indoor rules preclude long arms.
jbrimlow
12-29-2021, 08:39 AM
There are some common themes appearing in this thread. I've sourced all the parts for a RDB-16" 9mm, and am waiting on my smith's availability:
1) Access to indoor shooting ranges with limited rifle-caliber capabilities
2) Getting carbine-handling reps in during accessible pistol matches
3) Low cost-per-round training
4) Quiet shooting/Low blast
5) Less damage/closer range to steel or other targets
6) More accessible to low experience shooters
7) More compact carbines than 5.56mm guns
What else do we have?
I would add (similar to 1) outdoor ranges with limited rifle capabilities, either due to berms or due to distance available or both. Which leads to a lack of rifle matches, which means you need (2) if you even want to pretend to have carbine reps in under some kind of competitive pressure.
1. I’m not a very good long gun shooter (yet).
2. This video is just a starting point comparison for PCC versus 223/556 in the same chassis.
https://youtu.be/VCXfoRULyoA
jbrimlow
12-29-2021, 10:12 AM
1. I’m not a very good long gun shooter (yet).
2. This video is just a starting point comparison for PCC versus 223/556 in the same chassis.
https://youtu.be/VCXfoRULyoA
Sweet. Is that factory 9mm in the PCC?
I've got a comparison video to make too, because I wonder how my MPX PCC compares to my race carbine with all the go-fast parts, but that's going to have to wait until I can get outside, because I'm not going to shoot that comp indoors.
Glock26
12-30-2021, 01:48 AM
When I got my PCC, I did it for the sake of learning how to use a rifle. I wanted time behind the gun and 9 is less cost prohibitive than 556. Also, being able to run it in USPSA gave me an understanding of how to maneuver it at speed. I'm of the opinion that it's the best weapon platform for me within 50 yards and if given a choice, I'd choose a PCC over anything else in a home defense situation.
Counterpoints:
Unreliable - I think this stems from the limitless options. It's Glock syndrome in that the sheer size of the aftermarket means it's more likely that someone will cobble together something that doesn't work. We shouldn't judge Glock's reliability through its aftermarket, so we shouldn't judge blowback 9s because the local PCC shooter has an unreliable gun. I agree that it's a bit annoying to find the right combination of parts, but it's been surprisingly low maintenance since then (I've literally never cleaned my competition blowback AR9s or KP9 and have yet to have an issue).
No advantage in a PCC over a handgun - if this is the case, then USPSA classifier HHFs would be equivalent. However, PCC classifiers are like 20% higher than Carry Optics. It's a hard division that is relatively easy to classify well in. I can talk for hours on this topic, but that can be saved for a later discussion.
Better HD options - this ties back to my USPSA experience. If I can run a PCC faster with less practice than a handgun, then I'm objectively better with it. Shotguns do not have enough capacity for me. So that leaves me with the question of why 9mm over a rifle caliber. Personally, I prefer a less concussive cartridge and lower flash signature. Also, I don't have to worry about booking a rifle bay in order to get practice in.
HeavyDuty
12-30-2021, 07:09 AM
I built my first 9mm AR PCC to celebrate the end of the AWB. My main reason for making it was the ability to shoot it inexpensively on indoor rental ranges that charge a lot more for rifle, I came to appreciate the increased stability and accuracy it provided but the additional length was annoying. Since then I’ve settled on a Scorpion-K SBR to fill the shoulderable 9mm role.
I’m not a gamer, and after my PCC experience carbine length 9mms don’t make a lot of sense to me - I’m unlikely to ever have another.
When I got my PCC, I did it for the sake of learning how to use a rifle. I wanted time behind the gun and 9 is less cost prohibitive than 556. Also, being able to run it in USPSA gave me an understanding of how to maneuver it at speed. I'm of the opinion that it's the best weapon platform for me within 50 yards and if given a choice, I'd choose a PCC over anything else in a home defense situation.
Hey man, good to see you! Congrats on making GM in PCC too. I'm kind of going down that rabbit hole. It's fun to learn new systems. I want to see you GM revolver and see people's faces when you win a National Championship in that!
Some possible considerations to your counterpoints:
Counterpoints:
No advantage in a PCC over a handgun - if this is the case, then USPSA classifier HHFs would be equivalent. However, PCC classifiers are like 20% higher than Carry Optics. It's a hard division that is relatively easy to classify well in. I can talk for hours on this topic, but that can be saved for a later discussion.
Better HD options - this ties back to my USPSA experience. If I can run a PCC faster with less practice than a handgun, then I'm objectively better with it. Shotguns do not have enough capacity for me. So that leaves me with the question of why 9mm over a rifle caliber. Personally, I prefer a less concussive cartridge and lower flash signature. Also, I don't have to worry about booking a rifle bay in order to get practice in.
PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....
Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.
And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no? :D
I'm not an Operator and am just a middle aged gamer, so I only shot a suppressed 223 indoors for the first time last month.
But I was super pleased at how nice (non-flashy, non-concussive) it was in no-light conditions even shooting regular (non-flash reduced) ammo was with the suppressor.
https://youtu.be/o_6pzN5UxoI
Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?
Bergeron
12-30-2021, 12:43 PM
I’m not a gamer, and after my PCC experience carbine length 9mms don’t make a lot of sense to me - I’m unlikely to ever have another.
I agree that the gun games would be the primary reason to go to carbine length in 9mm. The full size can also make PCC-to-carbine analog training as similar as possible. I originally wanted my PCC to be SBR, but all the extra NFA hassle, and the gun games refusal to allow braced PCC, I settled on 16".
There was a discussion on the JP Rifles Youtube page where the JP team came to the same conclusions. Now there, it's shorter-barreled guns with permanent comps more than 16" fully rifled barrel guns.
Absent NFA and gun game considerations, I'd probably most like something in the 12" range, so the gun could balance compactness with an ability to still feel and manipulate like a full-size.
https://youtu.be/QMZpqJ4Cqjk
These are 25 yard doubles with the X95 at sub-20 splits on a 25 yard target.
I would probably be 0.23-25 with an open gun and 0.30-35 with a CO gun to get that.
Its been interesting watching PCC take off. Where I am, it’s not the biggest division (CO is) but it certainly has a loyal following with a couple GMs and rash of M’s. Interesting to note tho, HOA is still the Open guys.
I put a franken-9 together in 2017 when USPSA first announced the division. Being kinda into AR’s for 3-gun, I was drawn to the idea of a 9mm carbine and shot PCC for most of that first year including my Area and Section matches. Coincidently I also jacked up my shooting hand that winter while riding a dirt bike and could not close my strong hand ring finger (gripping a pistol 2-handed was a no-go for about 6 months). So PCC was a good diversion while my right hand healed.
The following year I went back to pistol divisions, partly because I realized my pistol skills were degrading, and I missed shooting them. So now shoot PCC in one or two USPSA matches a year, and mostly relegate the PCC to 3-gun or 2-gun matches in 2x4 division.
It was fun to watch industry respond to PCC’s in 2018-2020, as well as comp shooters experimenting with the best way to tame dot bounce from the blow-back recoil. To some extent the innovation is still on-going with JP and some other companies coming out with their delayed action bolts. Its going to be interesting to see what the next few years brings, other than my franken-9 is probably a relic by now….
Glock26
12-30-2021, 02:32 PM
PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....
Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.
Having one hand to do something is also possible with a PCC. For non-bullpup PCCs, as long as it's under 6 pounds I'm probably faster than my one-handed handgun. The KP9 is a little too front heavy for me to shoot one handed comfortably, but the ARs are surprisingly compliant. A bullpup might be even better for this situation due to its rear bias, but I haven't tried one myself.
And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no? :D
No joke, if I had a reliable 22LR system that holds 40+ rounds, then I would strongly consider it if rounds can go through 10+ inches of wood. I just got my first 22, so I'll be doing some testing on this subject. As for defeating body armor, I've come to the conclusion to default aim at legs or head. Now, if they come in with a ballistic shield, then I'm dead haha. After seeing your other post, I hope intruders aren't as clever as you. To be honest, I'm just some competition shooter who's never been in a gun fight, so I know nothing. Hopefully, it stays that way.
Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?
I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.
Hey man, good to see you! Congrats on making GM in PCC too. I'm kind of going down that rabbit hole. It's fun to learn new systems. I want to see you GM revolver and see people's faces when you win a National Championship in that!
Some possible considerations to your counterpoints:
PCC versus handgun and HHFs: No turn draws for PCC and no "strong hand only" either affects HHF. Also, HHF has fudge factor built in. Production and CO have same HHFs for most things and CO is easier to shoot for most. Single stack minor (10 round capacity) has easier HHFs than Production as well....
Which brings us to the next point: Shooting one handed and having one hand / arm free to do something else in a HD scenario (like open doors, carry a small child, talk to police on a cell phone, etc). So potentially practical reasons at the expense of speed and performance.
And other esoteric things like ballistics and defeating body armor if the attackers were so equipped. Because if you didn't care about ballistics and were just talking about less concussion and lower flash... then we'd all have 22LR home defense weapons, no? :D
I'm not an Operator and am just a middle aged gamer, so I only shot a suppressed 223 indoors for the first time last month.
But I was super pleased at how nice (non-flashy, non-concussive) it was in no-light conditions even shooting regular (non-flash reduced) ammo was with the suppressor.
https://youtu.be/o_6pzN5UxoI
Would love it if you posted / elaborated on your overall PCC gaming thoughts for gaming. Is it more "fun" than CO or are you finding the "fun" in learning a new platform / weapon system?
Having one hand to do something is also possible with a PCC. For non-bullpup PCCs, as long as it's under 6 pounds I'm probably faster than my one-handed handgun. The KP9 is a little too front heavy for me to shoot one handed comfortably, but the ARs are surprisingly compliant. A bullpup might be even better for this situation due to its rear bias, but I haven't tried one myself.
No joke, if I had a reliable 22LR system that holds 40+ rounds, then I would strongly consider it if rounds can go through 10+ inches of wood. I just got my first 22, so I'll be doing some testing on this subject. As for defeating body armor, I've come to the conclusion to default aim at legs or head. Now, if they come in with a ballistic shield, then I'm dead haha. After seeing your other post, I hope intruders aren't as clever as you. To be honest, I'm just some competition shooter who's never been in a gun fight, so I know nothing. Hopefully, it stays that way.
I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.
Would you be willing to share your PCC build that has been reliable?
I realized that I love shooting way too much (literally selling my golf mat later today). Everything about it is fun. My current active experiments are: (1) NRL22 with no bipod, (2) USPSA Limited G19 using non-dominant side, and (3) USPSA PCC with green laser only. I almost bought a 929 for revolver, so don't tempt me further :P . In terms of PCC gaming, I've witnessed a huge disparity between classifier performance and stage performance. Now to make PCC GM, I would say it requires about the same amount of commitment as CO GM. However, that commitment doesn't translate as well to stage performance. This is because moving with a rifle is different enough from moving with a pistol such that it requires additional training. I commonly see M and GM PCC shooters who don't practice the movement aspect as much. I think this is why there's a perception that PCC classifiers are easy when you see these same guys with slow match times.
I think we are brothers from another mother. :D
I’ve been working left handed single stack lol.
I think some of the thoughts of soft PCC classification may be holdovers from the inception to the 2019 HHF adjustment.
I’ve heard it used to be ridiculously easy in the beginning from 2017-2019 with that regard.
I have a 929 built by Eli of TK to be exactly like Michael Poggie’s national winning revolver if you want to borrow it for a run at it…..
Glock26
12-30-2021, 03:39 PM
Would you be willing to share your PCC build that has been reliable?
JP 9mm BCG (My Faxon BCG also works with its weight slug removed)
KYN-RB5007 Hydraulic Buffer
SPRINCO Blue AR15 Carbine Spring
Hiperfire Hipertouch Eclipse Trigger
As long as the BCG and trigger fit into the lower/upper receiver set, then it should be 100% for 100-160 PF ammo (124-135 gr RN bullets) through 4.5"-10.5" barrels (combos that I've tested). I've used Aero Precision Upper/FMP-9B Lower set and the JP receiver set cannibalized from my GMR-15.
mmc45414
12-31-2021, 10:56 AM
With all of the build talk, I might mention that I added the Stack of Quarters spacer to mine when I was trying to get it to work. I think this is primarily to lessen the impact on the bolt hold open device by shortening the run the bolt has prior to hitting it. Have no idea if it helps cycling also but might, so I mention it.
Clusterfrack
01-17-2022, 11:53 AM
Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award. Without some voodoo that people at my clubs lack, 9mm PCCs of a wide range of types are about as reliable as a damp muzzleloader. Factory ammunition and reloads that "always worked before" jammed (FTF and double feeds). Glock 33 mags fell out because the catch ledge had been chewed up. It was funny at first, but got really tiresome because of the delays.
Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award. Without some voodoo that people at my clubs lack, 9mm PCCs of a wide range of types are about as reliable as a damp muzzleloader. Factory ammunition and reloads that "always worked before" jammed (FTF and double feeds)...
Kinda feel that way about rimfire guns at steel challenge matches.
To the larger topic I think the recurring theme about "if you're really good with a pistol, PCC isn't that much better" is missing one important ingredient: you're really good with a pistol now. Put it down for a year or two and that's probably not going to be the case anymore. Coming up on 30 years ago that I shot my first USPSA match as a junior. I've seen a lot of rockstar GMs show up, git gud and then flame out. It is a small cadre of people I know that were active then and still even somewhat active now.
If your justification for any of this is to keep some sort of familiarity with a defensive tool, the notion that a PCC is easier to (re)build skill on and easier to maintain skill with isn't something that should be dismissed out of hand. If today's your day, nobody's going to care that you were a A/M/GM 10 years ago. The only thing that matters is how you perform on demand, today. And if there's a tool that helps you do that after life gets in the way, be it because of an injury, burn out or just boredom, then I think that's worth knowing.
After the riots of 2020 I wonder how many used-to-be's were thinking about that Open gun they sold a decade ago or the last time they actually shot under any pressure. It's a perishable skill, and not everybody is going to have the disposition that lets them keep it going, decade in and decade out. Knowing where the easy button is so you can get back to something that resembles a fighting weight as quickly as possible has a lot of value IMO.
I’m all in on PCC now. It’s ridiculous fun.
mmc45414
01-17-2022, 05:06 PM
Once again, at last Sunday's USPSA match, PCCs won the Most Unreliable Gun award.
Kinda feel that way about rimfire guns at steel challenge matches.
Shot three-gun yesterday, in my case this was Open class shotguns. I would maybe like to have an optic on my pistol, but I want to stay in TacOps to avoid these shenanigans. Some of it was probably brought about by the cold, dashboard said 18F on the drive there. By the time we were shooting it was a little warmer, but I am sure the guns that rode in the back of pickup trucks were still probably plenty congealed, on the first stage anyway. Even bruceride had some trouble with his new/not broken in 1301 balking on 1oz loads that had been vetted on a warmer day (fortunately it worked fine with the 1-1/8oz loads I had). But those magazine fed shotguns are something I can honestly say I do NOT want. Only thirteen of us showed up, and there were still a lotta shotgun issues.
Glenn E. Meyer
01-17-2022, 05:26 PM
In my PCC experience, the AR-ish PCCs in 9 mm were prone to problems. The Rugers tended to run ok. Not a large sample though. Even an old PC9, that a friend had, ran.
Bergeron
01-17-2022, 07:54 PM
Reading the BEnos forums on PCC, it seems as though a large portion of the malfunctions of 9mm blowback guns might be attributable to people experimenting with the guns, usually to get minimal recoil, and at the expense of optimal functioning.
I like to watch the Sinistral Rifleman YouTube channels, and he shoots both Glock and Colt pattern PCCs without appearing to suffer from malfunctions.
The 9mm AR direct blow-back guns seems to exist in a manner similar to the large-frame ARs, in that there's not any one specific standard, so the mixmaster stuff can get out of spec quickly. I know that there's at least two patterns of direct blowback extractors, one a 1911-ish spring part and another with a separate coil spring, and that the latter is generally going to have better functionality. Triggers also matter, in that the blowback guns put a lot more energy into the fire control, and that some triggers that are fine with 5.56mm guns are not so well off in 9mm blowback. The Colt pattern mags from Brownells and Metalform are different in feed lip and follower design than the Duramags, and the ProMags seem guaranteed to be trash. I don't trust aftermarket Glock magazines, and sticking mag extensions on doesn't seem like a boost to reliability.
I've heard that it's best to have the same manufacturer for the lower, upper, bolt & barrel. This seems to make a lot of sense in that these are the parts that are going to determine functionality, and it would be good if they were parts that were directly and specifically designed to work together. I also think that these guns would seem to be best off built by a smith who could verify functionality, even though they certainly could be home-built with ease.
Of course, we gun folk are notoriously cheap, and cheaper designs/parts might not have had the engineering design of others. If the key parts of the gun are from different manufacturers not designed to the exact same spec, if low price played a strong role in parts selection, if it's a home build, if some of the parts might be better suited to 5.56mm instead of 9mm, and if low recoil was prioritized over optimum functionality, then I see how reliability could be heavily compromised.
Sanch
01-18-2022, 11:25 AM
When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.
Is that not true?
And if it is true that it’s AK-level reliable, maybe it means PCCs can be reliable, but not cheaper ones since the SP5 is $3k+ I believe. Which of course negates ammo savings compared to running 5.56 by a large degree and is outside of the budget of most people.
But if the SP5 is super reliable, then it seems unfair to say PCCs as a whole are unreliable. It would be like someone who can only afford to run $100 HiPoints and Lorcins saying that semi-automatic handguns are unreliable.
Unless of course the SP5 is the only reliable PCC then we can say most are unreliable except one. Maybe the roller system is what makes it reliable but also very expensive to manufacture?
Clusterfrack
01-18-2022, 11:43 AM
When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.
Is that not true?
I've only seen one dude run an MP5 at a match. It didn't jam. I don't know anyone who owns one, or the HK94 version. Given the expense, I'm not surprised.
Interestingly, at the matches I attend AK's have not been as reliable as ARs. Not even close.
peterb
01-18-2022, 02:32 PM
Reading the BEnos forums on PCC, it seems as though a large portion of the malfunctions of 9mm blowback guns might be attributable to people experimenting with the guns, usually to get minimal recoil, and at the expense of optimal functioning.
For someone not looking to shave splits, what would be a reasonable low-fuss entry to PCC — get the Ruger and run it essentially stock?
Zincwarrior
01-18-2022, 02:33 PM
In my PCC experience, the AR-ish PCCs in 9 mm were prone to problems. The Rugers tended to run ok. Not a large sample though. Even an old PC9, that a friend had, ran.
Yes, I have not seen any problems with the Rugers.
When you guys say PCCs are unreliable, I assumed the HK SP5 roller semi-auto of MP5 was reliable. Like AK level reliability.
Is that not true?
And if it is true that it’s AK-level reliable, maybe it means PCCs can be reliable, but not cheaper ones since the SP5 is $3k+ I believe. Which of course negates ammo savings compared to running 5.56 by a large degree and is outside of the budget of most people.
But if the SP5 is super reliable, then it seems unfair to say PCCs as a whole are unreliable. It would be like someone who can only afford to run $100 HiPoints and Lorcins saying that semi-automatic handguns are unreliable.
Unless of course the SP5 is the only reliable PCC then we can say most are unreliable except one. Maybe the roller system is what makes it reliable but also very expensive to manufacture?
My X95 was stupid reliable after I matched recoil spring rate to gamer ammo.
I didn’t clean it often at all.
Hundreds and hundreds of rounds without malfunction.
My MPXs have been stupid reliable after I cleaned the factory sticky corrosion protector jelly out.
Over a thousand rounds without malfunctions and I haven’t cleaned them very often either.
Clusterfrack I wonder what it is about your region? The local guys here haven’t had any malfunctions at matches more than handguns. Have you ever seen a JP malfunction?
I think a lot of PCCs are meant for hotter ammo and if you’re getting gamey with it, then you have to make sure you have a system with enough operating margin to allow movement and transitions and dirt.
Like when my X95 RSA was too stiff, I would jam if shooting on a hard transition to the right because I didn’t have enough ejection velocity to overcome the movement.
JP rifles have a reputation of being very tolerant and reliable.
Their new JP5 has roller delay MP5 type internals and should be a better choice than an MP5.
So far I have not found PCC to be less reliable than Open, but it requires similar levels of tuning and understanding of what you’re working with.
Clusterfrack
01-18-2022, 03:29 PM
My local guys are doing one of two things:
1) Nothing. They buy a PCC and use whatever ammo. A reliable gun would have no problem with that. Eg. All of my ARs will shoot virtually any ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed.
2) Try to tune their gun and apparently fail.
At my clubs PCCs are about as (un)reliable as an Open 2011, and slightly less reliable than a 1911.
For gaming, really who cares? (Well, actually I care. I won't shoot any division that requires a lot of fiddling and tuning).
For defense, this is a complete dealbreaker.
JP rifles are by far the least reliable ARs, IME. I have personally seen (and helped fix) more AR malfunctions involving JP components and rifles than all other malfunctions put together. It's not even close. Again, for gaming... whatever. It's annoying but no one's going to die. You couldn't pay me to put JP stuff in a defensive gun.
Edit: one of the malfunctioning PCCs last Sunday was a JP non-roller block gun.
The new JP roller block PCC sounds great. If I was going to shoot USPSA PCC (I'm not), it would be high on the list.
My X95 was stupid reliable after I matched recoil spring rate to gamer ammo.
I didn’t clean it often at all.
Hundreds and hundreds of rounds without malfunction.
Clusterfrack I wonder what it is about your region? The local guys here haven’t had any malfunctions at matches more than handguns. Have you ever seen a JP malfunction?
...
JP rifles have a reputation of being very tolerant and reliable.
Their new JP5 has roller delay MP5 type internals and should be a better choice than an MP5.
So far I have not found PCC to be less reliable than Open, but it requires similar levels of tuning and understanding of what you’re working with.
My local guys are doing one of two things:
1) Nothing. They buy a PCC and use whatever ammo. A reliable gun would have no problem with that. Eg. All of my ARs will shoot virtually any ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed.
2) Try to tune their gun and apparently fail.
At my clubs PCCs are about as (un)reliable as an Open 2011, and slightly less reliable than a 1911.
For gaming, really who cares? (Well, actually I care. I won't shoot any division that requires a lot of fiddling and tuning).
For defense, this is a complete dealbreaker.
JP rifles are by far the least reliable ARs, IME. I have personally seen (and helped fix) more AR malfunctions involving JP components and rifles than all other malfunctions put together. It's not even close. Again, for gaming... whatever. It's annoying but no one's going to die. You couldn't pay me to put JP stuff in a defensive gun.
Yeah for sure, gaming is gaming.
They'll get kilt on the street for sure.
I guess I see it like this:
If the gun was set up improperly or not maintained then it's the armorer's fault. Unfortunately for most gamers, they are the armorer and some of them are as bad at that as they are shooting.
If an armorer set up a gun for you initially and then when you ran it, it had zero malfunctions... would you consider that reliable or unreliable?
That's where I'm at with equipment.
1. Unreliable after initial setup is a non-starter for me in gaming. I want it to work 100% just like I would want my defensive stuff to work 100%.
2. I don't mind learning so I can be a competent armorer and set up person.
I was having a conversation with a friend about this.
Some people like the versatility of an all season tire.
But some people would rather have the performance of a summer tire, knowing it won't work well in cold temperatures and it won't be as durable as an all season.
The issue is when you get people who buy a summer tire without understanding they bought a summer tire.
That's why Carry Optics and Production are such great divisions. They're perfect all season tires.
The Sig MPX is as I understand it, being used with pretty good LEO and Military results. It just may take a good armorer understanding to keep them running as designed.
Clusterfrack
01-18-2022, 07:44 PM
It’s hard to know if the gun will be reliable under a range of conditions. It depends on how “stable” it is to perturbations like ammo, wear, dirt, etc.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220119/495216a470d808eabf8e82d409997493.jpg
I want my life safety equipment to be in a state of stable equilibrium (left figure), not balanced on the tip of unstable equilibrium.
Interesting analogy with tires. I’ll have to think about that some more.
Gen 1 and 2 MPXs I’ve seen have had a bunch of small parts failures. Maybe the 3rd gen have solved the issues? It’s a cool design and shoots great, but not at a 5.56 AR level of robustness, IMO.
If an armorer set up a gun for you initially and then when you ran it, it had zero malfunctions... would you consider that reliable or unreliable?
…
Some people like the versatility of an all season tire.
But some people would rather have the performance of a summer tire, knowing it won't work well in cold temperatures and it won't be as durable as an all season.
The issue is when you get people who buy a summer tire without understanding they bought a summer tire.
That's why Carry Optics and Production are such great divisions. They're perfect all season tires.
The Sig MPX is as I understand it, being used with pretty good LEO and Military results. It just may take a good armorer understanding to keep them running as designed.
mmc45414
01-18-2022, 07:50 PM
2. I don't mind learning so I can be a competent armorer and set up person.
I think some folks also might be lured into this after assembling a direct impingement gun that is pushed open by 50k psi of gas and pushed closed by a 14" long spring, if you "build" one of those and it doesn't work you really screwed the pooch. Maybe it shoots harshly because it has too much gas and not enough buffer or dwell time, but they are pretty damn sure to function. And if they don't there are some pretty obvious things to revisit.
Then ya turn around and put together a blowback gun that looks just like your gas gun, but balances buffer and bolt weight with the ammo recoil pulse and doesn't benefit by being blown open by that big puff of gas. And the ejector is no longer in the bolt face, it is over in the lower that may be loosely attached to the upper carrying the bolt. Then in order to gain a few hundredths of a second (over a match that will consist of 1-3 minutes) you start farting around with that recoil pulse. And you expect it to feed from your pistol magazines (ETA: that might have plastic feed lips...) that you put huge extended baseplates on.
In my case, after having some experience with DI guns I had a hard time getting my PCC to chug reliably, and it feeds from the magazines that were derived from a blowback gun, intended to push feed cartridges that are not really slid up the bolt face. I finally figured out that extractor (ETA: Ejector, not extractor) issue and it is cooking now, but with normal power ammo.
It’s hard to know if the gun will be reliable under a range of conditions. It depends on how “stable” it is to perturbations like ammo, wear, dirt, etc.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220119/495216a470d808eabf8e82d409997493.jpg
I want my life safety equipment to be in a state of stable equilibrium (left figure), not balanced on the tip of unstable equilibrium.
Interesting analogy with tires. I’ll have to think about that some more.
So yes. I agree with you. My solution is somewhat different.
When I picked the P365 as a carry gun very very early in production, I bought two.
If the gun was perfectly reliable as a carry gun between rounds 1-1000 then I would keep my carry gun in that state so it never got into failure of parts territory. Because it matters that much to me.
Even years later, my round count on the gun is less than a thousand.
I have 4 copies for practice and watch for failure patterns at different wear levels.
So far I have broken one recoil spring at probably 8k plus rounds.
No other failures.
I see gaming guns like that for me.
I have a dry gun, a high round count practice gun and a low count match gun.
That way I can test failures with the practice gun and watch for them and preventatively maintain the match gun before that point.
So that the match gun has enough margin of reliability under normal match circumstances.
For example I didn’t clean the MPX before taking it to the range.
I shot it until it choked. It choked with gamer Syntech first and after a while more it started to choke on Lawman.
Cleaned the factory sticky corrosion protectant off, oiled it and no malfunctions at all with gamer Syntech in thousands of rounds.
But I know if I had any failure I could go up on power in a pinch.
But I also know that the bolt system likes being clean.
If I were to use the gun for self protection in muddy snow rolling around, higher power ammo and higher power recoil springs would add back margin.
An all season tire if you will.
But if I’m anticipating running a race on a dry race track, I’ll set up the gun with enough margin for those restricted conditions and go faster. Race tire.
If it rains, I’ll change to “rain tires” on track. That’s what we do when we race. It’s more of a PITA, but that’s part of the way some of us race. Same as I would change to different ammo or springs if I needed more margin.
RevolverRob
01-18-2022, 11:25 PM
I like shooting submachine guns. PCC is pretty much the closest I can get. Before "PCC" was a competition thing. You built a reliable 9mm AR one way:
Magwell block that used Colt magazines, Colt and Hahn Precision built the best + Colt magazines from Colt, Metalform, or ASC - 32-rounds or 20 round format + A heavy buffer, twice as heavy as a H-buffer, Hahn and Colt built the best + Taper the bottom of the BCG to help ride over the hammer = Most reliable 9mm AR format
When guys started moving away from that combination - they lost reliability.
mmc45414
01-19-2022, 08:12 AM
and it feeds from the magazines that were derived from a blowback gun, intended to push feed cartridges that are not really slid up the bolt face
Magwell block that used Colt magazines ... + Colt magazines from Colt, Metalform, or ASC
I had to go back and check to make sure my recollection was correct, but when I wrote the above I was inferring that the Colt magazines were Uzi magazines before Colt built their gun around them. Nobody ever said an Uzi was not reliable, ever. The more we chat about this the more it makes me ponder that maybe the same folks that can manage to make Glocks (probably the most reliable pistol ever) malfunction by "improving" them are also using ARs built around their improved Glock magazines. I have watched people shoot Steel Challenge stages that require 5-7 rounds per string with 32 round Glock magazines (that are probably actually Magpul mags with plastic lips) with extensions on them. I guess it might be a little advantage to stay in your zone and shoot the entire stage without changing magazines, but...
The adage may be Don't Hate The Player, Hate The Game, but in this case it is probably OK to hate the player.
ST911
01-19-2022, 08:52 AM
My local guys are doing one of two things:
1) Nothing. They buy a PCC and use whatever ammo. A reliable gun would have no problem with that. Eg. All of my ARs will shoot virtually any ammo, suppressed and unsuppressed.
2) Try to tune their gun and apparently fail.
Same here. #2 tends to be the same guys that have trouble with their handguns as well.
For someone not looking to shave splits, what would be a reasonable low-fuss entry to PCC — get the Ruger and run it essentially stock?
Yes, I have not seen any problems with the Rugers.
Same, with decent factory ammo they run. Mine will choke with lighter loads if not rigidly held, but that's not unexpected.
HeavyDuty
01-19-2022, 09:09 AM
I realize this is a PCC thread, but do the Ruger reliability comments apply to the PC Charger, too?
RevolverRob
01-19-2022, 01:00 PM
I had to go back and check to make sure my recollection was correct, but when I wrote the above I was inferring that the Colt magazines were Uzi magazines before Colt built their gun around them. Nobody ever said an Uzi was not reliable, ever. The more we chat about this the more it makes me ponder that maybe the same folks that can manage to make Glocks (probably the most reliable pistol ever) malfunction by "improving" them are also using ARs built around their improved Glock magazines. I have watched people shoot Steel Challenge stages that require 5-7 rounds per string with 32 round Glock magazines (that are probably actually Magpul mags with plastic lips) with extensions on them. I guess it might be a little advantage to stay in your zone and shoot the entire stage without changing magazines, but...
The adage may be Don't Hate The Player, Hate The Game, but in this case it is probably OK to hate the player.
There is one additional complexity if the Glock mag. The feed angle and single feed form, doesn't allow the same level of slop of a bouncing blow-back bolt. It's why the locked bolt/roller delay/Ruger PCC guns work better with Glock mags. An AR9 is just a straight blowback gun. And we've known for about...oh like 100 years now? That straight blowback works best with a double feed, straight, magazine that presents the bullet nigh straight on to the chamber. Which is what the UZI/Colt mag does...
The UZI and Colt mags are themselves derivatives of the Suomi mag, which is basically the best double feed stick mag in existence.
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