[Graphic] NYPD shoots dog

[bdcheung]

http://gothamist.com/2012/08/14/graphic_video_dog_shot_in_east_vill.php

As a dog owner, seeing this video really breaks my heart. My brother in law owns a pitbull who is the sweetest thing on the planet, but if you make her feel threatened, she will respond with force. If you threaten her daddy, she will respond with force. It's not out of malice that she does this; it's a survival instinct.

It's really, really terrible what happened to this dog. It seems like the woman in the dark sweater and black pants, who you briefly see at the beginning of the video, backs away after being told by police. The dog, apparently feeling threatened (as evidenced by the barking) and seeing movement, reacted. PO approaches the woman being attacked, which causes the dog to turn on him.

I don't know if the officer had less than lethal means available. The assisting officer certainly did.

Just breaks my heart.

[DocGKR]

While it is unfortunate that the dog was shot, however last I checked getting bitten by a pit-bull is not in a police officer's job description. In a raid or warrant service, officers can plan for dogs by bringing fire extinguishers, shields, or other means to deal with aggressive dogs. On a dynamic street encounter, there is not time or equipment available. The officers arrived to help the individual down on the ground--evidently the dog's owner. The dog clearly exhibited aggressive tendencies when it nipped the women. Had that occurred in a state allowing more widespread CCW, the dog might have been shot at that point by the civilian who was nipped. Next, as the officer moved towards the victim and the woman who was nipped, the dog charged the officer--he had very little time to react, no obligation to get bitten in the line of duty, and reacted appropriately to stop the threat that was rapidly closing on him. He only fired to stop the immediate threat and did not keep shooting once the threat was mitigated--actually the officer exhibited superb judgement and restraint.

Someone needs to tell the women who keeps screaming "why did you do that" to STFU, as it is pretty clear exactly what and why things occurred.

[Sparks2112]

No sound at work. :( Seems like a good shoot from what I can see. Shame it happened, but, judging from the article the owner's drug usage almost ensured his dog was going to get shot protecting him while he was od'ing in public one day.

ETA: I once shot a charging pitbul while examining a bank owned property that was supposed to be unoccupied but in fact had transients in residence. Good on the officer for making a solid hit when a miss was likely to hit bystanders.

[Zhurdan]

Honestly asking a question here.

What good would mace or a Taser do?


Now, on to what I "think" would happen.

If you mace/pepper a dog, do they just fall down like a human or do they lash out wildly?

If you taser a dog, what happens when the ride is over? Do you just keep juicing the dog until animal control shows up? I'd bet people would be more up in arms about watching an officer juice the dog for 30 minutes.

[Sparks2112]

I just find it interesting we live in a society where the value of an animal's life and well being is often times placed above that of a human's.

[ToddG]

I just find it interesting we live in a society where the value of an animal's life and well being is often times placed above that of a human's.

I find it sad that we live in a society where the average dog is a better person than the average person.

[Shokr21]

Looked like a good shoot to me. I would have liked to have seen a finishing shot taken, seeing that dog flop and yelp wasn't good. If you're going to mortally wound anything have the common decency to finish the job so there's no suffering.

The woman in the background yelling needed a bullet too IMHO. Go file a complaint if you feel that strongly about it.

[NETim]

I just find it interesting we live in a society where the value of an animal's life and well being is often times placed above that of a human's.

Reality has suffered greatly with the urbanization of America.

I feel bad the dog was shot and injured but I do not expect LEO's to subject themselves to undue risk.

[NETim]

I find it sad that we live in a society where the average dog is a better person than the average person.

I think that's always been true though, hasn't it?

[ToddG]

I feel bad the dog was shot and injured but I do not expect LEO's to subject themselves to undue risk.

This. The dog was just doing what a good dog should do... And the cop did what a good cop should do. Sometimes bad things happen without any of the actors being bad.

[bdcheung]

To be clear: I'm not criticizing what the officer did. He did the right thing.

Just wondering if less than lethal means would have been effective.


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[orionz06]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.

[Sparks2112]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.

I vaguely remember an incident where a K9 handler was shot, and later responding officers had to put the dog down to render aid. I'll try and do some digging and see if I'm making that up or not.

[orionz06]

I vaguely remember an incident where a K9 handler was shot, and later responding officers had to put the dog down to render aid. I'll try and do some digging and see if I'm making that up or not.

I thought I had heard something before, I wasn't certain so I made it a hypothetical. I do still believe the responses would be different though.

[TGS]

To be clear: I'm not criticizing what the officer did. He did the right thing.

Just wondering if less than lethal means would have been effective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was in a pitbull fight 3 weeks ago. I can tell you that 15 kicks from this 230lbs former marine wearing steel toed boots didn't even make him yelp.

I can tell you that the ensuing 2 on 1 struggle (my rottie and I vs the pitbull) was more exhausting than ECQC, especially when I started seeing blood fly through the air, down my clothes, and hearing my best friend Argus cry when the pitbull punctured his neck. I love dogs as much as the next guy. I myself own a large/dangerous breed, and understand the whole "there's no bad dog, only bad owners" mantra. With that being said, you don't mess around with dogs in "kill" mode. You kill them back.

Not in an offensive or demeaning tone, but until you've had a pit or other large/dangerous breed actually attack you (and I'm not talking shutzhund games or training), you'd be surprised at the amount of violence they can bring in a millisecond. It does not call for less lethal usage....I am more than 100% confident that if my Rottie hadn't gotten in the way, I'd have had a closed coffin funeral and wouldn't be posting right now. No joke. So, while less lethal means may have been effective, the chance of them not being effective enough outweighs the risks. You wouldn't ask if there's effective less lethal means if TCinVA charged at you with a claidmore, so it shouldn't be relevant to a pitbull either.

ETA: Not that the cops did anything wrong, but having a big "JOIN US" sticker on a van at the scene of a dog being shot probably isn't an effective recruiting campaign.

[Sparks2112]

I was in a pitbull fight 3 weeks ago. I can tell you that 15 kicks from this 230lbs former marine wearing steel toed boots didn't even make him yelp.

I can tell you that the ensuing 2 on 1 struggle (my rottie and I vs the pitbull) was more exhausting than ECQC, especially when I started seeing blood fly through the air, down my clothes, and hearing my best friend Argus cry when the pitbull punctured his neck. I love dogs as much as the next guy. I myself own a large/dangerous breed, and understand the whole "there's no bad dog, only bad owners" mantra. With that being said, you don't mess around with dogs in "kill" mode. You kill them back.

Not in an offensive or demeaning tone, but until you've had a pit or other large/dangerous breed actually attack you (and I'm not talking shutzhund games or training), you'd be surprised at the amount of violence they can bring in a millisecond. It does not call for less lethal usage....I am more than 100% confident that if my Rottie hadn't gotten in the way, I'd have had a closed coffin funeral and wouldn't be posting right now. No joke. So, while less lethal means may have been effective, the chance of them not being effective enough outweighs the risks. You wouldn't ask if there's effective less lethal means if TCinVA charged at you with a claidmore, so it shouldn't be relevant to a pitbull either.

ETA: Not that the cops did anything wrong, but having a big "JOIN US" sticker on a van at the scene of a dog being shot probably isn't an effective recruiting campaign.

I've been pretty respectful of dogs and the damage they can do ever since the 37 stitches I had to get to close the laceration that exposed teeth and bone from my lip just under my nose up to the corner of my eye. There's a reason I have a big viking beard and it's not all style related.

The pit I shot got hit with a 230gr Gold Dot between the eyes, splattered most of it's brain across the ground and I swear to god the thing was still trying to bite me when it was dying. They're amazing animals, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and their capabilities, which is why I will shoot them in the face as quickly as possible whenever I feel threatened by one and am unable to extricate myself from their striking range.

[TCinVA]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.

Police dogs have been known to lose it and have in fact had to be put down with gunfire.

[TCinVA]

You wouldn't ask if there's effective less lethal means if TCinVA charged at you with a claidmore, so it shouldn't be relevant to a pitbull either.


But I'm so loveable.

[ToddG]

You wouldn't ask if there's effective less lethal means if TCinVA charged at you with a claidmore, so it shouldn't be relevant to a pitbull either.

In fairness, I think first we need to establish the effects of OC spray & Taser on TCinVA before you can make such serious claims. :cool:

I'm free next weekend...

[JHC]

HOLY CRAP the sound of that crowd after the shot. Hardly a peep of them when it's just an unconscious human on the ground in unknown medical condition. That happened fast. LEO had no good options.

[peterb]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.

We had a similar scenario proposed at a recent fire/EMS training -- officer passed out in cruiser for unknown reason, K9 loose in passenger compartment protecting the officer. What to do?

Had a lot of interesting suggestions -- firehose, snare, try to pin against far door with ladder, etc. -- but none that sounded good. Some of our police carry animal-control snare poles in their cruisers, but a GSD or Mal in full attack mode would be a tough proposition.

[DocGKR]

Full CO2 fire extinguisher to the dog's face often takes the fight out of them...

[gtmtnbiker98]

I've been in that situation on two occasions. I have one rule, I'm NOT taking a bite from a dog. Period. Then the owner gets a pinch.

[TCinVA]

In fairness, I think first we need to establish the effects of OC spray & Taser on TCinVA before you can make such serious claims. :cool:

I'm free next weekend...

I used the last bit of my Fox Labs canister as Banaca the other day. And wouldn't you know it? They're backordered. Bummer.

[MD7305]

In my professional experience, a dog that hostile is not going to stop from being OC'ed. Can't speak for Taser but I've seen the OC attempted time and time again without resolve. No way I'm going to fight back with a 26" ASP either so I'm left with 180gr. GDHPs and they work, well.

It sucks the dog had to be shot but I don't think most of those street corner quarterbacks understand. I heard a woman saying "the dog didn't know any better" and that's true but come on, really? You're gonna let Kujo dine on your flesh because it lacks the mental awareness that biting people is bad. I say well done to the officers especially considering the amount of people around and in that area. Quick response and safe application of rounds.

[TCinVA]

I've seen people complain because the police shot a crazy man wielding a butcher knife the size of a machette. In the minds of the complainers, the guy was crazy. Not responsible for his actions. Plus the police had guns.

The fact that a crazy man can still cut your head off and that street encounters do not work like a game of rock/paper/scissors...especially if one half of the fight is nutzo...didn't seem to actually penetrate the skulls of the people doing the complaining.

When society is stable enough that you can pay others to do all the necessary killing for you...whether that's killing your protein or killing the bad people...it apparently is easy to lose touch with the reality that underpins the thin veneer of civilization.

[BWT]

Good shoot.

I own dogs, have all of my life, but... I wouldn't get mauled by a Pitbull either, and my Father owns one. The cop didn't have options, IMHO, you use what level of force stops the threat. I'm sorry, I don't think O.C. would've stopped that dog. I mean putting yourself in his situation, would you want to take your chances with a charging pitbull with a squirt of pepper spray before he's locking onto your arm with jaws of a breed of dog that was specifically bred for dog fighting. Do you know how dogs normally kill? By crushing your wind pipe, or tearing it out. (ETA: That's how Dogs and wolves kill animals, that's how lions/tigers kill zebra and other animals, by crushing their wind pipe) Do you want the dog they used to put in a cage with bears, bulls or with other dogs to kill them for entertainment bearing down on you and you've got some liquid that's going to spray him in the face, probably obscure his vision and causing extreme irritation to his eyes to go into even more of a panicked frenzy?

Again, I think you should be able to own whatever dog you want, but that doesn't change what the dog is, they're animals, that's the situation.

I also absolutely don't think the Cop should've finished the dog off, is it the humane thing to do? Yes. Would it feel like the right thing to do? Yes. However, at the end of the day, that's another projectile being launched at a 1,000-1,200 FPS, that dog was going to bleed out, and his first shot stopped the threat.

Do you ever see cops shoot a suspect in the head if they've shot him 4-5 times, because he probably won't make it anyway?

No. No, you don't. The logic, IMHO, is similar enough, that I wouldn't recommend "finishing" anything off.

Do I think he should be able to? Yeah, but truth be told, I'm not saying some Cops don't over step their bounds. But, this is a situation where they just would make themselves liable unnecessarily. I mean, kind of like this. I saw a deer hit by a car. It's intestines were on the ground, it's back was broke (I could tell because his back legs weren't kicking), it was thrashing violently about in the road trying to stand up to run away with the top half of it's body (It's top half of it's body was standing upright on the ground, clawing at the ground desperately trying to run, the back half was destroyed/broken, and it's abdomen was torn open slightly), the people that hit him were horrified, he had been dragged for awhile, and he was having probably an extremely painful death.

But as a CCW holder, I couldn't say it's a great idea in a massively congested traffic area to shoot that deer to put it out of it's misery is anything near a remotely good idea. Depending on how that Officer feels about you discharging a firearm in city limits maybe be the difference between wreckless endangerment and "the right thing to do".

That sucks, but that's the way it is. That image/situation have come back to me many times, because it was absolutely shocking. A co-worker monday morning quarterbacked me and said that he would stab it in the neck with a pocket knife. The Deer also had a full set of antlers. Yes... I'm going to grab that animal in it's death throes as it swings that rack of horns ready to mess me up, and stab it with my 2.5'' to 3'' pocket knife, and hope it doesn't run me through.

Anyway, the situation sucks overall. But I have to agree with Todd, there isn't a wrong in this situation. I can't blame the Cop, because I see it as the only option, the dog was already going into fight mode because it was attacking people and it came after him, and the dog was defending it's owner.

ETA: I also love dogs, and I have nothing against Pitbulls.

[JHC]

The story with the vid suggested the dog made it to the animal hospital and I presume, recovered.

[VolGrad]

Random sort of related PIT story related to me by a good friend that's a LEO.

He was a local DET at the time and went to a home to do a field interview. He was ill prepared in that he wasn't wearing a duty weapon at the time (not sure why and I railed on him for it). He was armed only with a J-frame on his ankle. As he approached the front door someone let a pit out the back door and it circle around the house. There was no ill intent by the homeowner, just let the dog out at about the same time. My buddy saw the pit fast approaching out of his peripheral and started telling the homeowner to "get the dog" but they couldn't. The dog became aggressive very quickly.

My friend learned that day how fast he could draw and fire from an ankle holster from a standing position. He told me as the dog was mid-lunge he drew and fired two rounds. The first one went through the dogs open mouth and exited the neck. The second struck and entered through the top of the head just above the eyes. The dog barrel rolled and popped back up in a seated position where it remained frozen, still breathing and bleeding, until animal control arrived. He said it was eerily sitting there like a statue only moving it's eyes to watch the activity going on around it.

Freaky.

[SouthNarc]

I hate shooting dogs. HATE IT. That being said, I've probably shot 10-15 over the years.

Tasers work REALLY well against dogs as long as both probes hit, IME.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm the first to decry the rash of dog shootings of recent by LEOs (Chihuahua, a dachshund, many bad shoots) but this was legit.

If you have a large dog that you take in public, you have to be damned sure that dog is safe around strangers. I won't be surprised to see more efforts to mandate liability insurance for dog owners. Too many people buy into the dog psychology crap and don't treat the dog like a dog and lay down the law that some behavior is unacceptable.

[NickA]

I hate shooting dogs. HATE IT. That being said, I've probably shot 10-15 over the years.

Tasers work REALLY well against dogs as long as both probes hit, IME.

Good to know about the taser. A friend just gave me one of the old school big 'ol taser units; it's probably too big to be a practical carry option but I may see about keeping it handy around the house. The neighbors have dogs and the thought of one of them going after my daughter scares the hell out of me.

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[LittleLebowski]

Good to know about the taser. A friend just gave me one of the old school big 'ol taser units; it's probably too big to be a practical carry option but I may see about keeping it handy around the house. The neighbors have dogs and the thought of one of them going after my daughter scares the hell out of me.

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The right breed will make dogs attacking your daughter a non-issue. My Belgian Malinois is a firm believer in sudden violence towards other dogs that get near my daughter.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/5ea3591c.jpg

[NickA]

The right breed will make dogs attacking your daughter a non-issue. My Belgian Malinois is a firm believer in sudden violence towards other dogs that get near my daughter.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/5ea3591c.jpg

Definitely on my someday list. As an aside they train all the MWD's here in San Antonio, and you can sign up to foster the pups until they go into the program, and to adopt retired dogs. Always wanted to give it a try.

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[LittleLebowski]

Let me know if you ever need advice on it and be sure to check http://malforum.com

[NickA]

Let me know if you ever need advice on it and be sure to check http://malforum.com

Another rabbit hole to fall into :) Thanks for the offer.

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[BLR]

Nice looking dog Dude. I'm a Border Collie man, myself, but I have a love of BMs, and German/Belgium Shepherds. It's fun to have a dog that is smart enough to tease you back.

[LHS]

When society is stable enough that you can pay others to do all the necessary killing for you...whether that's killing your protein or killing the bad people...it apparently is easy to lose touch with the reality that underpins the thin veneer of civilization.

A thousand times, this.

[LittleLebowski]

Nice looking dog Dude. I'm a Border Collie man, myself, but I have a love of BMs, and German/Belgium Shepherds. It's fun to have a dog that is smart enough to tease you back.

I'd take a BC in a New York minute if I was in agriculture again. We both don't like dumb dogs :D

My all time favorite is the GSD.

[BLR]

I'd take a BC in a New York minute if I was in agriculture again. We both don't like dumb dogs :D

My all time favorite is the GSD.

Blackfire Engineering's office is in a 1840 brick farm house in Wilmington, on a 170 acre farm. 100 tilled, 40 pasture and the rest wood lot. Love it there compared to the old office in "downtown" Dayton. Almost everyone open carries in our shop unless we have clients coming in. Then everyone CCs, depending on the client.

[CMG]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.
There was a similar situation here in Las Vegas a couple of months ago where the handler lost control of his dog and it went after another police officer. That officer shot the dog to protect himself but the dog did not die. No matter how much of an animal lover you might be the reality is that human life > animal life. There is also an ongoing court case here about putting down a dog that killed a 1 year old baby. An animal rights group has come into town and filed an injunction to block killing the dog and instead wanting to "adopt" the dog and bring it to their animal sanctuary.

[digiadaamore]

the biggest thing i take from this is how cool and precise the officer is! it proves a point about how everyone says youll be a drooling neanderthal if you draw your weapon. you revert to your practiced skill level, apparently he's practiced

[ToddG]

As an aside they train all the MWD's here in San Antonio,

For those of you unfamiliar, that's short for Malinois Weapon of Destruction.

[GJM]

the biggest thing i take from this is how cool and precise the officer is! it proves a point about how everyone says youll be a drooling neanderthal if you draw your weapon. you revert to your practiced skill level, apparently he's practiced

Interesting perspective. I ran the first part of the video a few times wondering why the officer drew and fired one hand, when he clearly had two hands available?

[BLR]

So I actually watched the video. Wow. Breaks the heart for sure.

Couple of things:

1. I would have maced that dog the minute I found out he wasnt leached properly. He's dangerous. Period. For the good of the people around as well as the dog. Grab a blanket from the cruiser, both cops mace the dog and wrap him up. Then throw him in the back of a cruiser.
2. Discharging a gun ONTO A HARD SURFACE AT A SHALLOW ANGLE TOWARD A CROWD AND SOMEONE UNCONSCiOUS ON THE GROUND IS BEYOND MORONICALLY STUPID
I'm more than a little suprised that no one else here mentioned that. I'd have hit the dog with my club before firing a shot like that. I can just see a piece of jacket land in the guys throat or in some little girls stomach there. The cop obviously went for the gun as his first choice. Not good judgement. At all. Then he prepares to do the same thing right with his partner in the line of fire. At least the partner had the good sense to use mace. And it's not like this whole thing happened in 3 seconds. Why wasn't the mace out and in hand right from the getgo??
3. The idiot walking closer to the dog prior to the shot, with the cops telling everyone to get back, shouldn't be let out into public without his keeper. He likely precipitated the incident. And needs to be charged accordingly IMO. Followed by the owner for not taking care of his dog. Stupid SOB.

[Coyotesfan97]

Honestly asking a question here.

What good would mace or a Taser do?


Now, on to what I "think" would happen.

If you mace/pepper a dog, do they just fall down like a human or do they lash out wildly?

If you taser a dog, what happens when the ride is over? Do you just keep juicing the dog until animal control shows up? I'd bet people would be more up in arms about watching an officer juice the dog for 30 minutes.

Pepper spray usually won't work on a driven dog that's made the decision to attack/bite. It doesn't work the same on dogs that it does humans. I have seen my dog search inside buildings that have air that is almost orange tinted from all the OC and/or CS SWAT has inserted. I have also seen video where working dogs were directly sprayed with OC and then sent to find and bite decoys. They worked through it and we're successful.

Tasering a dog is difficult especially if it's charging you. Getting two probes in it is going to be hard. If you shooting from the side you have to hold the Taser gangster style to get two hits. From what I've seen of tasered dogs they lock up while the Taser cycles. As soon as it stops they're up and running for the hills mostly never to be seen again. The wires are 21 feet long and are snapped off.

[digiadaamore]

Interesting perspective. I ran the first part of the video a few times wondering why the officer drew and fired one hand, when he clearly had two hands available?

this is just me but, i felt he was keeping his other hand up incase the dog jumped at his face or if he missed to shove it back . thats just what im seeing i dont know for sure

[DocGKR]

blr--from your comments, I assume you have not had to face a charging pit bull yet...

As Coyotesfan97 reports, OC is not fully effective against an aggressive dog. IIRC, NYPD does not have Tasers assigned to patrol officers. I would not want to be using an ASP or other baton against a charging pit bull. As noted earlier, this incident went down VERY quickly--those patrol officers did not have the time or equipment to do anything else in response to the sudden attack. I definitely would have shot the dog...probably more than once. FWIW, #1 buckshot works great on aggressive charging dogs when alternative less-lethal tools are not available.

[Coyotesfan97]

What if this were a LEO who passed out and his K9 was acting the same way and began to attack those trying to administer help? What if a good Samaritan were forced to subdue the dog to render aid to the officer? I bet responses to a dead dog would be drastically different.

We would try to get another handler there to deal with the dog. I'd be surprised if the dog left the handler to go after anyone. They are in article guard/handler protection mode. If one isn't close by we suggest getting a bite sleeve and a spare leash out of the down handlers car. The dog will bite the sleeve, put the leash on him, and tie it off to another car's push bar. I've seen a video of Dave Reaver, the owner of Adlerhorst, demo this. I don't have a copy of it though.

Hey if I'm unconscious and I'm bleeding out from an artery do what you have to do to save my life.


1. I would have maced that dog the minute I found out he wasnt leached properly. He's dangerous. Period. For the good of the people around as well as the dog. Grab a blanket from the cruiser, both cops mace the dog and wrap him up. Then throw him in the back of a cruiser.

I carry a snare and I'll try to snare him. We only have thin, plastic cloth lined yellow emergency blankets. The last thing I'm going to do is try to wrap a pit bull in one of those. I've wrapped some of my pets in blankets as a joke and the fights to get out we're horrendous. No sarcasm here I'm interested. Have you used this technique and did it work?

[BLR]

blr--from your comments, I assume you have not had to face a charging pit bull yet...


Nope. Thankfully I have not. And I have absolutely no intention of rectifying that missing experience. Charging bear/lion/buffalo have at least some romantic quality. Charging pit bulls have a certain "urban" taste that I don't enjoy.

Firing your weapon at an oblique angle onto a hard surface toward a crowd does not strike me as a well thought out action. Maybe the officer had no choice. I'm not saying the dog shouldn't have been shot, or the officer did wrong. All I'm saying is he got VERY, VERY lucky to a) have hit the dog, and b) not hitting a bystander with a ricochet. I'm also saying that sitting in my office writing a proposal. So, it's worth exactly what you paid for it.

And I'd put the blame on the owner and the moron who circled closer and closer precipitating the attack. JMO.

[DocGKR]

Concur with all of the above.

Keep in mind that while somewhat counter-intuitive, Luke Haag's AFTE research has demonstrated that when striking a hard unyielding surface like pavement, a handgun bullet will typically exhibit a low angle ricochet of 1 degree or less.

[BLR]

Concur with all of the above.

Keep in mind that while somewhat counter-intuitive, Luke Haag's AFTE research has demonstrated that when striking a hard unyielding surface like pavement, a handgun bullet will typically exhibit a low angle ricochet of 1 degree or less.

He's still luckier than he knows.

Impact physics is a wonderfully rich, and exceptionally difficult field to model/predict. The number of variables is staggering.

[Sheep Have Wool]

Concur with all of the above.

Keep in mind that while somewhat counter-intuitive, Luke Haag's AFTE research has demonstrated that when striking a hard unyielding surface like pavement, a handgun bullet will typically exhibit a low angle ricochet of 1 degree or less.

Do you have a link for this? I'd be interested in reading the possible causes for this. Bullet deformation? As an engineer - at least by schooling - I'd be curious.

[BLR]

Do you have a link for this? I'd be interested in reading the possible causes for this. Bullet deformation? As an engineer - at least by schooling - I'd be curious.

IIRC, he says it's due to the "softness" of the lead bullet (if I am mistaken, I apologize in advance). Which is not "untrue." But it is lacking as a full explanation IMO. The reason DocGKR says it is counter intuitive is that most people relate to largely elastic impact - like billiards. Impact-reflection angles are much more predictable with elastic impacts. The more plastic the objects, the more unpredictable they become. If you want an introductory text, I would suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Ballistics-Theory-Design-Guns-Ammunition/dp/1420066188/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1345424879&sr=8-7&keywords=impact+ballistics

I did a SciFinder search on Haag, and his ATFE report did not show up. However, a search using the key words "plastic," "real," "impact," and "deformation" yielded some good stuff.

[TGS]

1. I would have maced that dog the minute I found out he wasnt leached properly. He's dangerous. Period.

Mace the dangerous, unleashed dog so that it runs away.....then it goes and bites other people. Awesome. Maybe having it keep to one spot with police officers monitoring it is a better option.....you know, that way animal control knows where to go and get the dog as opposed to it running rampant, and if it tries to bite anyone the police officers can stop it.

That's if the repellent even has an effect...


For the good of the people around as well as the dog. Grab a blanket from the cruiser, both cops mace the dog and wrap him up. Then throw him in the back of a cruiser.

Seriously? Go down to the pound, and with the first pit you see acting aggressive I want you to try and wrap him up in a blanket. Please let us know how it goes. Let me know how that works out for you. This isn't a shih tzu, dude.


2. Discharging a gun ONTO A HARD SURFACE AT A SHALLOW ANGLE TOWARD A CROWD AND SOMEONE UNCONSCiOUS ON THE GROUND IS BEYOND MORONICALLY STUPID

And becoming a chew toy is obviously a better plan.

Imagine that: life isn't a cookie cutter. Sometimes people are placed in imperfect situations.


I'm more than a little suprised that no one else here mentioned that. I'd have hit the dog with my club before firing a shot like that.

Oh, really? That's what you'd have done? Based on your knowledge and experience with pits? Let me know how that works out for you.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

You need to add a little more realism to your hindsight. Think about how ridiculous some people sound when they make accusations/recommendations/condemnations on guns/shootings when they have no experience with guns other than what hollywood has taught them.

[Sparks2112]

Mace the dangerous, unleashed dog so that it runs away.....then it goes and bites other people. Awesome. Maybe having it keep to one spot with police officers monitoring it is a better option.....you know, that way animal control knows where to go and get the dog as opposed to it running rampant, and if it tries to bite anyone the police officers can stop it.

That's if the repellent even has an effect...



Seriously? Go down to the pound, and with the first pit you see acting aggressive I want you to try and wrap him up in a blanket. Please let us know how it goes. Let me know how that works out for you. This isn't a shih tzu, dude.



And becoming a chew toy is obviously a better plan.

Imagine that: life isn't a cookie cutter. Sometimes people are placed in imperfect situations.



Oh, really? That's what you'd have done? Based on your knowledge and experience with pits? Let me know how that works out for you.

__________________________________________________ ____________________

You need to add a little more realism to your hindsight. Think about how ridiculous some people sound when they make accusations/recommendations/condemnations on guns/shootings when they have no experience with guns other than what hollywood has taught them.

I don't agree with BLR in this instance, BUT, for a friendly conversation your response seems pretty hostile. [RK] Can't we all just get along? [\RK] :)

[TGS]

I don't agree with BLR in this instance, BUT, for a friendly conversation your response seems pretty hostile. [RK] Can't we all just get along? [\RK] :)

Well, I wasn't the one writing "beyond moronically stupid."

I'm the dick? Come on.

[JDM]

Disagree politely or do not post. Period.

[Sparks2112]

Well, I wasn't the one writing "beyond moronically stupid."

I'm the dick? Come on.

Well sir, I'd just like to point out at no point did I call you a "dick". I generally don't insult people I don't know for reasons that are honestly not worth insulting people over. In the future please understand that if I choose to "insult" you it will be very obvious and clear. Good day to you.

Respectfully,
J.M. Johnston

[LittleLebowski]

And.....we are back on the topic of the NYPD dog shooting.

[ford.304]

Looks a horrible situation, but a clean shoot. I don't know what the officers could have done here.

Like a lot of bad situations, a lot of officer involved dog shootings are more the result of putting officers (or officers putting themselves) into positions where they don't have any good options. If a cop knocks down my door, he's going to get 100 lbs of Akita in his face, and he's going to have to shoot her. If he knocks on the door and announces himself, there's going to be a lot of barking, but I'll grab her by the collar and put her in her crate before anything bad can happen.

With as often as officers come into contact with violent dogs, versus how often they come into armored gunfights, I wonder if some training and dog warden equipment in the trunk might not be as useful as a squad rifle.