Interview With Christian Prouteau: MR-73

[FrankB]

Prouteau tells Ian that the revolver’s greatest strength was its single action, which allowed very precise shots.


https://youtu.be/klK_tHy_PdA

[Lex Luthier]

Thanks for posting this. He sounds like he and so many of our revolver SMEs drink from the same fountain of knowledge.

[BillSWPA]

Anyone who does not watch this video is missing out on some good insight.

[Dave T]

His training philosophy is a far cry from a lot of what I see today, particularly in LE where "shoot them to the ground" seems to dominate.

Dave

[FrankB]

His training philosophy is a far cry from a lot of what I see today, particularly in LE where "shoot them to the ground" seems to dominate.
Dave

That’s what struck me the most, Dave. The prison hostage situation was a great example.

[okie john]

Prouteau tells Ian that the revolver’s greatest strength was its single action, which allowed very precise shots.

Like a set trigger on a rifle.

Great interview. It sounds like we're all going to be packing 5.25" 357s loaded with 2400 next year.


Okie John

[Gater]

Forgive me a bit of a deviation, but it seems relevant---not sure if this one has made the rounds here before, but this was the property of German GSG-9 commander Ulrich Wegener:

81439

[FrankB]

Forgive me a bit of a deviation, but it seems relevant---not sure if this one has made the rounds here before, but this was the property of German GSG-9 commander Ulrich Wegener:

81439

I’m assuming that’s an M19, and Christian said it was the most beautiful gun after the MR-73.

[okie john]

Is that a US quarter in the stocks?


Okie John

[Mark D]

I knew the guy was fairly legendary, but I didn't know why. Turns out he founded and commanded the GIGN, and led dozens of missions. Awesome interview.

[jh9]

His training philosophy is a far cry from a lot of what I see today, particularly in LE where "shoot them to the ground" seems to dominate.

Dave

You can probably have a different approach/philosophy when you're cherry picking a much smaller cadre of much more specialized personnel.

National standards for how your average cop deals with a belligerent, coked-up biker outside a dive bar can't rely on their agency requiring / enabling a bunch of guys who have paid time to do cardio in the morning, 100 rounds of exacting pistol marksmanship training in the evening, etc. If FLETC/POST/whoever had the same standards as GIGN you'd have like ten cops per state.

[jtcarm]

I didn’t agree with everything he said, but the commitment to accuracy was very impressive.

[Moylan]

I think units that have what we call God’s power, that is to say the power of life and death, should remember that the firearm is no substitute for courage. Courage is within you; it’s an internal resource. Considering the gun as a way to compensate for a lack of courage, shooting before thinking, is something our kind of units can’t allow for themselves. Of course it can happen in units with limited training and fewer resources, unlike special units where training should at least take 90% or more of their time. There must be a professional rigor that is exemplified by the quality of the shooting. To me it is essential.
This is pretty awesome stuff, but the thing that kind of weighs on me is that anyone who carries is taking on the power of life and death, so in that sense it applies to all of us.

[Archer1440]

A jaw-droppingly good video there, some real insights to be had.

[Dave T]

You can probably have a different approach/philosophy when you're cherry picking a much smaller cadre of much more specialized personnel.

National standards for how your average cop deals with a belligerent, coked-up biker outside a dive bar can't rely on their agency requiring / enabling a bunch of guys who have paid time to do cardio in the morning, 100 rounds of exacting pistol marksmanship training in the evening, etc. If FLETC/POST/whoever had the same standards as GIGN you'd have like ten cops per state.

So you think the philosophy of training to hit with the first shot is: not sound, to elitist, impractical? Interesting. That goal/objective was what I taught and emphasized for 6 years at my department and then for 10 years in my own training business. I obviously think it is important - and since we're talking about possibly taking another person's life - a very responsible approach.

Dave

[john c]

So you think the philosophy of training to hit with the first shot is: not sound, to elitist, impractical? Interesting. That goal/objective was what I taught and emphasized for 6 years at my department and then for 10 years in my own training business. I obviously think it is important - and since we're talking about possibly taking another person's life - a very responsible approach.

Dave

I'm not JH9, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that GIGN is the Navy Seal Team 6 of the French National Police. Their mission is to directly engage terrorists and similarly violent criminals in what amounts to offensive action. That's very different than the regular patrol officers in either France or the US. The reality of budgets and training time for regular patrol officers means that we train to a different standard than GIGN, with firearms and everything else.

Most police firearms training is trying to attain a minimum level of competence, not make precision shots, at distance, in single action with a 5 inch revolver. That's not a realistic training situation for other than a specialized unit.

[john c]

This is pretty awesome stuff, but the thing that kind of weighs on me is that anyone who carries is taking on the power of life and death, so in that sense it applies to all of us.

That quote was so delightfully French. I mean that in a positive way. The American way relies more on resources and planning.

[Dave T]

Most police firearms training is trying to attain a minimum level of competence...

And the quote above is exactly what I'm talking about. When law enforcement pulls a trigger we have the power of life and death, yet the philosophy has always been to train for a "minimum level of competence". I'm having trouble understanding why so many are having trouble getting what I'm talking about.

For the 6 years I was my department's chief firearms instructor I didn't have the training time or the ammo budget I thought we should have, but I still always emphasized, stressed, and promoted the idea you have to hit what you are shooting at and the first shot is the most important. That's a philosophy of training. I tried to encourage deputies to to practice on their own, not depend on the department to provide the time or the ammo. I certainly did that but admit few others bothered to. Sadly the "philosophy" I was pushing was lost on them when the state's qualification requirement was just the minimum.

Dave

[zeleny]

I don't think it's a stretch to say that GIGN is the Navy Seal Team 6 of the French National Police.GIGN stands for Groupe d'intervention de la Gendarmerie nationale. Accordingly, it is not a police force, but gendarmerie, i.e. a branch of the military performing law enforcement duties among the domestic civilian population, a practice predominately banned in the United States under the Posse Comitatus Act.

[HCM]

So you think the philosophy of training to hit with the first shot is: not sound, to elitist, impractical? Interesting. That goal/objective was what I taught and emphasized for 6 years at my department and then for 10 years in my own training business. I obviously think it is important - and since we're talking about possibly taking another person's life - a very responsible approach.

Dave

Hitting with first shot is still sound and what is currently taught.

What is not sound is expecting one shot from a handgun to be 100% effective, 100% of the time.

[HCM]

His training philosophy is a far cry from a lot of what I see today, particularly in LE where "shoot them to the ground" seems to dominate.

Dave


That’s what struck me the most, Dave. The prison hostage situation was a great example.


Forgive me a bit of a deviation, but it seems relevant---not sure if this one has made the rounds here before, but this was the property of German GSG-9 commander Ulrich Wegener:

81439

Before you all start with the romantic nonsense about how cops (and the rest of us) should be carrying revolvers instead of high capacity autos...

LE / Special Units always have envy of what the other guy has. Traditionally US cops had magnum revolvers and shotguns and Euro cops had auto pistols and SMG. So of course Euro Cops want... magnum revolvers and shotguns and US cops want....auto pistols and MP-5s.

This manifested itself in early Seal Team 6/DEVGRU using a mix of Beretta 92s (pre M-9) and 4" S&W M-66s. The M66s were basically just completing a circle. ST6 adopted them because of the influence of GSG-9 and to a lesser extent GIGN, who where originally influenced by the Americans...

Suffice to say is they were so effective all these units would still be rocking revolvers.

Another factor is these units were "counter terrorism" units which really meant "Hostage Rescue" units. Hostage rescue is a specialized activity. An optimal HR gun might or might not coincide with an optimal fighting gun. Either way it has minimal relevance to general LE training/ gear selection.

Auto pistols (and other tech like pistol optics) have come a long way since GIGN was founded - what 50ish years ago ?

With respect to GIGN there are a few factors being overlooked. First, you have an organization which trains(or trained, not sure if current) to shoot to wound/disable. Second, the primary reason GIGN still officially uses revolvers is simply branding. Like the Texas Rangers and 1911's revolvers are part of "the brand" for GIGN. That is not a knock as having a feared / respected "brand" can be a very useful form of soft power.

[JCN]

I'm not JH9, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that GIGN is the Navy Seal Team 6 of the French National Police.

Is GIGN more like Seal Team 6 or SFOD-D?

[FrankB]

Some of Christian Prouteau’s philosophy should have been employed in the situation below. I’ve always supported the police where in my communities, but they’ve always been top notch. The case below makes me appreciate what we enjoy even more.
Edit: Click “Watch on YouTube”, and it will take you to the video. It’s essentially an execution, so YouTube has restricted it.


https://youtu.be/rngerMY-WS8

[Archer1440]

Is anyone else impressed by the fact that as of the time of the interview, Prouteau was SEVENTY FREAKIN’ SEVEN years old?

Damn. I need more wine in my diet.

[JHC]

Is GIGN more like Seal Team 6 or SFOD-D?

I see what you did there.

[BillSWPA]

The most important things I got from the video were mindset and rationale. I doubt that anyone would use that video as the basis of an argument that police should go back to revolvers. In fact, the very rationale put forth in the video - the importance of accurate shooting - is what caused me to switch from revolvers to semiautos for concealed carry. I have yet to see a revolver with sights as useful as the Night Fision sights on the Sig P365 I am carrying as I type this, or the Trijicon sights on the Glock 19 I also sometimes carry, particularly in low light.

Also, while the video did not discuss this issue, GIGN was founded at a time when semiauto reliability was not what it is today.

[zeleny]

Also, while the video did not discuss this issue, GIGN was founded at a time when semiauto reliability was not what it is today.SIG P210 to the contrary.

[FrankB]

The most important things I got from the video were mindset and rationale. I doubt that anyone would use that video as the basis of an argument that police should go back to revolvers. In fact, the very rationale put forth in the video - the importance of accurate shooting - is what caused me to switch from revolvers to semiautos for concealed carry. I have yet to see a revolver with sights as useful as the Night Fision sights on the Sig P365 I am carrying as I type this, or the Trijicon sights on the Glock 19 I also sometimes carry, particularly in low light.

I’m more precisely accurate with a Glock 19, but I’ve only carried revolvers this year. I spend very little range time at 7 yards, and focus on shooting an 8” target at 15 and 25 yards. I fire as soon as the target is in my sights, and mostly shoot DA. I do have to make more frequent trips to the range with a revolver, but I simply like them. Misses are generally within 1-2” outside of the 8” target, and that’s pretty much at 25 yards.

[Dave T]

Before you all start with the romantic nonsense about how cops (and the rest of us) should be carrying revolvers instead of high capacity autos...

HCM, as a point of clarification at no time in my previous comments on this thread did I even suggest we should all go back to revolvers. My point has been to emphasize the "philosophy" of hitting what you're shooting at and the importance of that preferably being the first shot...what ever kind of handgun you use.

Dave

[03RN]

The most important things I got from the video were mindset and rationale. I doubt that anyone would use that video as the basis of an argument that police should go back to revolvers. In fact, the very rationale put forth in the video - the importance of accurate shooting - is what caused me to switch from revolvers to semiautos for concealed carry. I have yet to see a revolver with sights as useful as the Night Fision sights on the Sig P365 I am carrying as I type this, or the Trijicon sights on the Glock 19 I also sometimes carry, particularly in low light.

Also, while the video did not discuss this issue, GIGN was founded at a time when semiauto reliability was not what it is today.

This is not an argument for revolvers to be carried by anyone or any organization but there's more than a few sets of sights that are phenomenal.

The gp100 has Novak sights, Bowen makes a great rear for adjustable sighted revolvers, and c&s and d&l make fixed rears to replace adjustable sighted guns that present like a nice wide u notch or square notch available with tritium, FO, or plain.

There are also numerous tritium or FO front sights for rugers and smith's.

81508

[BillSWPA]

This is not an argument for revolvers to be carried by anyone or any organization but there's more than a few sets of sights that are phenomenal.

The gp100 has Novak sights, Bowen makes a great rear for adjustable sighted revolvers, and c&s and d&l make fixed rears to replace adjustable sighted guns that present like a nice wide u notch or square notch available with tritium, FO, or plain.

There are also numerous tritium or FO front sights for rugers and smith's.

very good points. Although you did not present them as an argument to carry revolvers, there are certainly valid reasons to do so. I was late to the semiauto party when I first started carrying a gun because I wanted six for sure. I would not want the valuable mindset and rationale insight to be lost based on a discussion of equipment choices which worked very well for GIGN at the time, regardless of whether that rationale would lead to the same choices today.

Considering that mindset, here are some thoughts on the "power of God" from one of my favorite movies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrOqnZdvI6M

[HCM]

This is not an argument for revolvers to be carried by anyone or any organization but there's more than a few sets of sights that are phenomenal.

The gp100 has Novak sights, Bowen makes a great rear for adjustable sighted revolvers, and c&s and d&l make fixed rears to replace adjustable sighted guns that present like a nice wide u notch or square notch available with tritium, FO, or plain.

There are also numerous tritium or FO front sights for rugers and smith's.

81508

I would love an FO sight for the Novak GP 100 dovetail that did not have the HUGE FO rod found in the match champion sights.

[HCM]

HCM, as a point of clarification at no time in my previous comments on this thread did I even suggest we should all go back to revolvers. My point has been to emphasize the "philosophy" of hitting what you're shooting at and the importance of that preferably being the first shot...what ever kind of handgun you use.

Dave

You didn’t but others implied it and I’ve seen these threads go that way.

To your point about first shot hit accountability I think pistol red dot sights are a step in the right direction in that regard.

The data from current LE RDS shootings is very positive in that regard but somewhat skewed as at this time officers with RDS tend to be “self selected” as shooters simply by the fact they were willing to go out of pocket for an RDS.

The data from sims engagements Aaron Cowan’s force on force and active shooter classes is a more relevant sample but still shows significantly higher firs shot hits with RDS than irons.

[03RN]

I would love an FO sight for the Novak GP 100 dovetail that did not have the HUGE FO rod found in the match champion sights.

Is this helpful? I don't know what the stock size is.
https://dawsonprecision.com/ruger-gp100-revolver-fiber-optic-front-sights/

[HCM]

Is this helpful? I don't know what the stock size is.
https://dawsonprecision.com/ruger-gp100-revolver-fiber-optic-front-sights/

Unless I am mistaken that is for the standard Ruger dovetails. The Novak sight use a different dovetail.

[03RN]

Unless I am mistaken that is for the standard Ruger dovetails. The Novak sight use a different dovetail.

https://dawsonprecision.com/novak-cut-fiber-optic-front-sights/

???

[Wyoming Shooter]

I would love an FO sight for the Novak GP 100 dovetail that did not have the HUGE FO rod found in the match champion sights.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45474-Ruger-GP100MC-Novak-Sight-Replacement

[HCM]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45474-Ruger-GP100MC-Novak-Sight-Replacement

Thanks !