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UNK
12-12-2021, 07:51 AM
For internal trigger parts coatings. Is there any benefit to coatings as far as trigger pull? I am specifically interested in Jframe trigger parts. Beyond dry firing a trigger job and Apex Duty Carry kit is there a noticeable difference or benefit as far as the trigger pull is concerned. Specifically for trigger weight or smoothness.
If so which coatings would offer the best benefits?

HeavyDuty
12-12-2021, 11:36 AM
Watching - I’ve been wanting to find a source for DLC.

R89074
12-12-2021, 11:47 AM
Just a thought, the internal parts are built to spec to function properly. When you add a coating this will change the specs that will have to corrected to make the parts fit and function.

OlongJohnson
12-12-2021, 11:58 AM
I've been wanting to try NiB on some internals. Learned about this a few months ago:

https://www.ccrrefinishing.com/information.html

Seems to be the only place remaining where individuals can obtain service for NiB.


CCR is a forum member here, maybe they can chime in? CCR Refinishing.


Just for where I'm going... My M11-A1 has the nickel sear and has broken in to have a ridiculously nice trigger. My other Sigs are good, but feel like there's something wrong with them when compared to the M11-A1.

So I'm thinking about picking one and sending sear, hammer and hammer strut to wmdguns.com for NiB. There sure seem to be a lot of AR triggers around in NiB without problems, as well as Glock stuff.

Might also send a couple bits from my M&P 340 to see if it can be even better.

HeavyDuty
12-12-2021, 12:09 PM
Just a thought, the internal parts are built to spec to function properly. When you add a coating this will change the specs that will have to corrected to make the parts fit and function.

I really doubt Glock has different spec components for the FBI pistols that have DLC. A traditional action, this is definitely a concern.

Clusterfrack
12-12-2021, 01:09 PM
I think lubrication offers the most benefit. Low friction coatings can as well, but are often not durable over very heavy use. My understanding is that the main point of DLC coatings is to increase durability. Melonite coated actions in combination with lubrication work great.

UNK
12-12-2021, 04:22 PM
I've been wanting to try NiB on some internals. Learned about this a few months ago:

https://www.ccrrefinishing.com/information.html

Seems to be the only place remaining where individuals can obtain service for NiB.





Might also send a couple bits from my M&P 340 to see if it can be even better.

Sir please expound on your reasoning. Im seriously considering this if I think the benefit is worth Ill for sure give it a shot.
I just indicated I would like to purchase a 360j. If its not already sold that will be the gun for the trial run. Ideally it will be bobbed and DAO.

My initial thoughts were to PVD or TiN but I will be the first to admit I dont know coatings.

UNK
12-12-2021, 04:31 PM
Error

beenalongtime
12-12-2021, 05:32 PM
On my PX4's, I have a TJIAB from EL which contains factory coated parts, as well as his NP3'd trigger bar and he still polished the partsOn another PX4, when new, I had the trigger components done at CCR in nickle Boron. I polished them first and did a "repolish" to make sure when I put them in the gun. I can't tell the difference between NP3 and CPII (ccr's term). I do use a lube on the CPII that contains PTFE, which is in the NP3)
I have a Inox 92, that has some NP3'd factory parts (did seem smoother), and I still added his trigger bar and his TJIAB (smoother after the polishing).
I remember either reading or watching an Langdon video, where he mentioned he only coats new parts (used parts are already wore and this won't build them back up). I think a polish and lube are better on something used (cost benefit analysis).

OlongJohnson
12-12-2021, 07:38 PM
Sir please expound on your reasoning. Im seriously considering this if I think the benefit is worth Ill for sure give it a shot.
I just indicated I would like to purchase a 360j. If its not already sold that will be the gun for the trial run. Ideally it will be bobbed and DAO.

My initial thoughts were to PVD or TiN but I will be the first to admit I dont know coatings.

WMD Guns, although it hasn't provided retail coating services in about two years, claims a mu of 0.06 for its NiB-X. https://wmdguns.com/firearm-coatings/

Given the degree to which the nickel-sear M11-A1 is superior to any of my other Sigs, I'd like to try something on other guns that would get them close to that, or possibly even better. (FWIW, I'm not much interested in the mu of a surface without lubrication, but it is logical that a surface with a very low mu lube-free would be at least as good and more likely even lower with appropriate lubricant. Barring some weird, non-obvious interaction, of course.)

On the M&P 340, I will likely send the hammer and hammer spring strut, possibly the rebound slide, leaving the trigger with a stock look.

The Robar site used to explain that they would not apply NP3 to guns with fine single-action triggers such as 1911s or classic Sigs. The reason was that they had to aggressively grit blast the surface to ensure adhesion of the coating, and that could disrupt the edge of the sear and sear notch sufficiently to be a safety risk. My understanding is that that was due to the tendency of the PTFE particles to congregate with greater density at the surface of the base metal and interfere with the adhesion of the nickel. Electroless nickel and its variants such as NiB that are more like alloys rather than composite mixtures do not have any such issues, AFAIK.

PVD is a process. It can be used to apply many different coatings.

TiN is good for hardness and anti-galling, but I am not familiar with it being advertised as having remarkably low mu.


I remember either reading or watching an Langdon video, where he mentioned he only coats new parts (used parts are already wore and this won't build them back up). I think a polish and lube are better on something used (cost benefit analysis).

Unfortunately, many gun parts are manufactured with surfaces so rough, or defects such as burrs, that simply placing them in service without cleaning them up first can be expected to rapidly create irregular and/or excessive wear on mating/opposing/rubbed surfaces. This will create roughness (damage) in the opposing surface, which will likely not be adequately addressed simply by coating it. The cost per part for retail coating services is often greater than the cost of new parts, so it is false economy to coat parts that are damaged and won't ever reach the level of excellence they would if they had been conditioned and coated before entering service.

The time to fix surfaces is before they've had a chance to do damage to other surfaces. Doing otherwise is throwing good money after bad.

Another way to say it is that using other gun parts to remove metal more or less haphazardly from gun parts that weren't made as smooth as they should have been in the first place is a far inferior process to using files, stones, polishing, etc. that are made specifically for working metal in an intelligent, focused, directed, controlled, and precise manner.

Clusterfrack
12-12-2021, 07:47 PM
(FWIW, I'm not much interested in the mu of a surface without lubrication, but it is logical that a surface with a very low mu lube-free would be at least as good and more likely even lower with appropriate lubricant. Barring some weird, non-obvious interaction, of course.)

Interestingly, this is not the case. The friction coefficient between two dry surfaces is not a good predictor of their behavior with a lubricant.

OlongJohnson
12-12-2021, 11:30 PM
Interestingly, this is not the case. The friction coefficient between two dry surfaces is not a good predictor of their behavior with a lubricant.

I'm enough of a geek to want to learn more. Do you have any relevant literature you could point me toward? I tried googling and came up with more bot-compiled spam sites than actual relevant info.

Clusterfrack
12-12-2021, 11:47 PM
I'm enough of a geek to want to learn more. Do you have any relevant literature you could point me toward? I tried googling and came up with more bot-compiled spam sites than actual relevant info.

Boundary lubrication is a deep topic... The short answer is that lubrication often works better when the lubricant can chemically adhere to the surfaces. That means the surface energy needs to be high enough to adsorb lubricant. Low friction smooth dry surfaces typically have low surface energy.

Here are a few random links to get you started...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/boundary-lubrication
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/284019129_Understanding_the_Physical_Adsorption_Ac tion_Mechanism_of_MoS2_Nanoparticles_in_Boundary_L ubrication_with_Different_Polyisobutyleneamine_Suc cinimide_PIBS_Concentrations
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.langmuir.1c01581