Is the Sig 556 Rifle Any Good?

[mrozowjj]

Pretty much the post title. Depending on which website I end up at I either get a lot of people in love with the gun or a lot of people bitching about QC issues and problems with the gun. It hard to be able to cut through the BS and see who is right.

[SecondsCount]

Pretty much the post title. Depending on which website I end up at I either get a lot of people in love with the gun or a lot of people bitching about QC issues and problems with the gun. It hard to be able to cut through the BS and see who is right.

I have no personal experience with the 556 except with those that I have seen in classes and the couple that the owners let me shoot. At one class I attended the student was having issues with Wolf ammo but got it sorted out by adjusting the gas system. Other than that they have all run fine.

I cannot answer to the long term durability or QC issues.

[Jay Cunningham]

It's one of those things where you need to ask yourself "why?"

Even if you get your hands on one that is 100% satisfactory to you in the accuracy and reliability departments, is it giving you something over an AR?

If you just want one, that's perfectly valid. But it's just another way to put 5.56mm downrange.

[jstyer]

It's one of those things where you need to ask yourself "why?"

Even if you get your hands on one that is 100% satisfactory to you in the accuracy and reliability departments, is it giving you something over an AR?


This this this... This is exactly what everyone should ask before they "buy into" the non-standard system. Any class or any shop you go to, no one will have spare parts, no one will have spare anything... with an AR you're buying into an ultra-adaptable, ultra-common system.

[mrozowjj]

It's one of those things where you need to ask yourself "why?"

Even if you get your hands on one that is 100% satisfactory to you in the accuracy and reliability departments, is it giving you something over an AR?

If you just want one, that's perfectly valid. But it's just another way to put 5.56mm downrange.

I kind of want something different than an AR to use in 3 gun matches. That's really about it. That and the other "different" options (SCAR, ACR, etC) are all stupid expensive. But if it's not accurate and it's not reliable then I don't want it. I've gotten to the point where having a gun just to add to the "gun collection" isn't appealing to me anymore.

[Jay Cunningham]

I kind of want something different than an AR to use in 3 gun matches. That's really about it. That and the other "different" options (SCAR, ACR, etC) are all stupid expensive. But if it's not accurate and it's not reliable then I don't want it. I've gotten to the point where having a gun just to add to the "gun collection" isn't appealing to me anymore.

Wanting something different is perfectly valid. I doubt there would be any real accuracy or reliability issues. Have you seen anyone else using them in 3 gun matches?

[mrozowjj]

Wanting something different is perfectly valid. I doubt there would be any real accuracy or reliability issues. Have you seen anyone else using them in 3 gun matches?

Nope. The only 3 gun matches I have been to was in York and it was everyone there had an AR of some kind. One or two were running an AK to be different and one guy had a SCAR. No Sigs to speak of. I think there was only one Sig pistol there now that I think about it.

[Jay Cunningham]

The only 3 gun matches I have been to was in York and it was everyone there had an AR of some kind.

Probably a clue.

:cool:

Look, I personally like Kalashnikovs and I'm sure I could run one pretty well in a match, but if I really wanted to be competitive I'd be shooting an AR that looked similar to the other ARs out there.

[mrozowjj]

Probably a clue.

:cool:

Look, I personally like Kalashnikovs and I'm sure I could run one pretty well in a match, but if I really wanted to be competitive I'd be shooting an AR that looked similar to the other ARs out there.

I really love AK too. The Sig is influenced by it actually.

I'm a class D USPSA shooter so I'm not good enough to be competitive even if you gave me a BCM.

[abu fitna]

I have been a long time fan of the 55x platform. The Swiss models run exceptionally well, and I have seen them stand up to some serious abuse without any complaint. They are easily the most accurate of the ultra compact systems I have used.

Having said that, the 556 is an attempt to square the circle between the original platform and something compatible with the US M4 centric market. It works... but the closer the build is to the original, the better. So Classic models are far superior IMHO (and I say this as an owner of the modified SWAT patrol model). The multiple position collapsing and folding stock leaves much to be desired compared to the stability of the original fixed side folder. (I never personally quite saw the point of the full M4 stock model). The STANAG mag works as advertised, but is a bit of a transition for folks used to the classic European mags. (On the other hand, interoperability is more important.) The rails on the modified models are nicely executed, but heavy - the classic system does allow short rail segments to be mounted and has a nice top rail for any sighting options short of a scout scope placement.

On the other hand, the trigger remains clean and the diopter sights are very useful, although I prefer the fixed diopter of the original platform versus the rail mounted version in the 556. However, even the backup folding iron sight is useable in a pinch on the 556 (although having it as a backup to the backup may seem overkill, the first time one sends the rail mounted diopter flying after bashing into partially breached door during an entry one will appreciate the option. (On the other hand, one will also miss the old rugged standby).

Your mileage may vary.

[Kyle Reese]

I used to own one. I purchased it in the spring of 2008, fired it a few times, cleaned it, put it in the safe, and sold it at a loss in 2010.

I found the BUIS supplied with the rifle to be absolute trash, but the rifle functioned 100% with M855.

I'll echo Jay C's sentiments on this one. If you want one just because, go for it. I prefer the Stoner system for launching 5.56 over any other platform.

[mrozowjj]

I spent most of last night thinking about it. I did want one just for something different but at $1200-1300 for a new one I can get a really nice AR for that but I already have two ARs so I don't "need" another and seeing as how most of my shooting is pistol these days I think I talked myself out of buying one.

[GJM]

No interest in one in .556, for the reason stated above. The notion of a "modern" carbine shooting 7.62x39 and taking AK magazines was intriguing, but I heard the early guns didn't run. Saw this in a Suarez newsletter, which I receive after buying a holster from them, and it claims the 556R has been improved. Thoughts?

From Our Insider - The SIG 556R's New Changes
We spoke with our "man on the inside". Some of the points noted during our discussion. The engineers reworked the entire gun to the point where it is a whole new gun.
The recoil spring is stronger and has 4 more pounds of pressure than previous guns.
The magazine well has been widened to accept all manner of variations of steel AK magazines.
The extractor is wider than on previous guns and the extractor spring has been beefed up.
The extractor spring is 30% stronger than on an AK-47.
Chamber dimmensions have been opened up 5 thousands to accomodate variations in "medium grade ammunition" (basically the crap ammo that is so prevalent in the AK world).
The internal magazine shelf made of hardened steel is already known.

[mrozowjj]

No interest in one in .556, for the reason stated above. The notion of a "modern" carbine shooting 7.62x39 and taking AK magazines was intriguing, but I heard the early guns didn't run. Saw this in a Suarez newsletter, which I receive after buying a holster from them, and it claims the 556R has been improved. Thoughts?

From Our Insider - The SIG 556R's New Changes
We spoke with our "man on the inside". Some of the points noted during our discussion. The engineers reworked the entire gun to the point where it is a whole new gun.
The recoil spring is stronger and has 4 more pounds of pressure than previous guns.
The magazine well has been widened to accept all manner of variations of steel AK magazines.
The extractor is wider than on previous guns and the extractor spring has been beefed up.
The extractor spring is 30% stronger than on an AK-47.
Chamber dimmensions have been opened up 5 thousands to accomodate variations in "medium grade ammunition" (basically the crap ammo that is so prevalent in the AK world).
The internal magazine shelf made of hardened steel is already known.

The R is interesting as a modern AK but you're right about the problems. While googling info about the 556 I found this video. It is over a year old though.
http://youtu.be/nrObcZb_CCI

[rob_s]

I agree with Jay and others in that the only real reason to own one seems to be special snowflake syndrome. I've had guys in classes, and been in classes with guys, that run them but I don't know many people that run them for long after a class or two, largely because they start to realize that they aren't gaining anything in exchange for the price and weight increases relative to the AR.

Additionally, with the thing being virtually 100% proprietary parts, you are 100% on your own if something breaks, both in terms of parts and in terms of someone else helping you diagnose the problem. We had a guy with a brand new SBR version in our class last month and he kept having problems with it. Had it been an AR I could have made suggestions on what was wrong with the gun and likely even replaced almost any common wear/breakage items. Because he had a unique gun, he was on his own.

I don't really care what other people shoot, but the 556 is a gun I don't really "get" the point of.

[Crow Hunter]

I have been a long time fan of the 55x platform. The Swiss models run exceptionally well, and I have seen them stand up to some serious abuse without any complaint. They are easily the most accurate of the ultra compact systems I have used.



Could you elaborate on this some?

I have always heard that the Sig 55x is really great, but no one ever seems to actually have experience with them. They are usually just passing along info they got from a Leroy Thompson article or, I assume, they feel that Swiss guns MUST be that good because they are Swiss.

Since the Swiss haven't really gone to war in a very long time and the only other country that I know of that issues as a standard is Chile, I have always wondered about their combat/high volume shooting performance.

I know there are some police units and I think some other special units that issue them, but I have never read that much about them.

The only experience that I have heard about to date was the Nashville SWAT team that brought a couple to a Tactical Response class. I think one of them lost the charging handle (although it could still be charged with a finger) and I think the other one broke something, but I may be mis-remembering that.

With the very small numbers of civilian owned guns in the US and their extreme value, I don't think many people really run them hard.

I would really like to hear more about your experiences with them if you can share them.

Thanks!

[archangel]

The only 3 gun matches I have been to was in York... I think there was only one Sig pistol there now that I think about it.

Heh. That may have been me.

I have no firsthand experience with the 556, but a guy that I've been to a bunch of training classes with was running one. He's gone back to the AR platform.

Since you already have 2 AR's, with the money that you'd spend on a 556, I'd get ammo and training. That will serve you better in the long run than a gun that's different just to be different.

[Doug]

I own one (556). Bought it when they first came out and came with some swiss parts. It is a rifle I wish I had not purchased especially after having taken a lot of classes with ARs.

I find it front heavy. The original 556 fishgill Handguards were 14.7 ounces compared to the Swiss ones. The crush washer was installed on backwards. My flash hider seems to be fused on that I can't get it off using proper barrel vice blocks etc.. If I ever do get it it off, I am going to run it hard in a rifle course but would never use it over my Colt uppers.

Also, unlike a Colt or other reputable manufacturer that follows close as possible to the military specs for the rifle, I highly doubt that a large sample size of Sig USA rifles could pass this Swiss test

http://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/

I would have to search but somewhere Mr Vickers mentioned the Swiss 550 platform didn't do well in SAS military testing. Found it

http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1297035&postcount=82

After taking one of his courses, I respect his opinion and knowledge.

If you get a Sig 556 that rocks, like it, then go for it. But for all the other reasons from the other posters on parts, performance, I don't see how it offers something over the AR platform.

[abu fitna]

Could you elaborate on this some?

I have always heard that the Sig 55x is really great, but no one ever seems to actually have experience with them. They are usually just passing along info they got from a Leroy Thompson article or, I assume, they feel that Swiss guns MUST be that good because they are Swiss.



My comments do come from first hand experience. In past professional lives, I have had reason to require non-US platforms for use overseas. My first exposure to the platform came during a multiyear tour in Switzerland. One of the benefits of the mandatory reserve structure is a mandatory annual qualification shoot, which for administrative reasons will see different units shooting at different times throughout the year. In some parts of the country, this is less popular of an event than others, particularly given the required nature of the event for those who have little interest in military service or firearms at all. In some of these areas, it is common that allocated ammo will not be used by the individuals it was set aside for - and consumed by those more eager to train. (In my experience, something far more common in the French speaking regions). One can discuss the drawbacks for readiness, especially when a unit may be gundecking paperwork for non-participating shooters to account for ammo burned, but this was not my country and not my place to criticize. But I certainly did reap the benefit, along with a few other folks, and we would run a very small number of Stg90s very hard indeed over the course of these events (weapons being brought as individual issue, rather than armory supplied, for these training and qualification cycles).

At one point at a different time and place, I brought in the SIG 552 to replace a mix of MP5 and AK variants that I and some comrades were using. Multiple reasons why, but reducing the different types of long arms in the mix was useful to ensure enough mags to go around in a pinch. 5.56x45mm clearly could reach out and touch a bit further than 9x19mm, and several of the non HK but HK tooling imported from regional supplier MP5s were running into problems at the round counts we were putting down them, plus 9mm supplies were difficult to come by for a few reasons unrelated to the weapons. None of this had anything to do with the SIGs, but pre-amble as to the why: the 552 is only very slightly longer than the MP5, and brought a much improved distance engagement and logistics support. (Would have loved the 556R had it been an option at the time, but wasn't something we had access to. The HK53 was a potential option as well, but these were not as readily sourced at the time for us.) Our usage would exceed a thousand rounds a day per man for extended periods, and the weapons very rarely so much as complained.

I have seen a few minor issues develop. These are occasionally referenced by some commentators. Yes, the charging handle can come out of its slot in the bolt carrier - the detent can be deceptive and one can think it is seated when it is not. I have also seen one energetically depart the body of my weapon during detonation of a defective round in the chamber - case split at neck. The weapon continued to run with no apparent impact for the remainder of the day after that event. I have also seen those using classic handguards without dedicated light mount options have jury rigged solutions fail under field conditions, but that is typical for nonstandard and improvised engineering. I have also heard folks claim that the tritium sight inserts may not have the service life one might wish for, but that was in reference to weapons that would definitely not have been new, having traveled through multiple hands before reaching their end user no doubt long enough down the line that isotope half life considerations may have been in play. Certainly, those that I used were plenty bright enough, although of course one had to adjust point of aim accordingly when flipped up. Speaking of sights, the front sight post is indeed thicker and the rear diopter aperture smaller (for settings above the CQB V) than folks are used to on the M4, and some have complained about this - especially during transition between platform adoption. (Comparable in design and function however to the HK platform, and have never had a complaint for transition from those users). Spent brass can get a bit chewed up sometimes, but that only matters for reloaders - and again, far less of an issue than with the HK design.

As far as other groups' adoption, I can't speak to their choices or their testing. I can tell you that the platform was in use among a number of folks out of uniform with modified grooming standards in multiple Middle Eastern countries, and included among those were some individuals who may have spoken with British accents. I do also know that some folks with accents from our northern neighbor were not as impressed with the platform after sharing a few joint evolutions (in no small part because of mount challenges for their favoured battery powered toys with the classic Swiss models) and were content with other long arms given that they did not have the same non-attribution requirements in their typical deployment roles. I certainly wouldn't challenge Mr. Vickers, Mr. Thompson or anyone else as to their perceptions of the platform, or their experiences with the folks that selected weapons for other groups at the time. I only have seen what I have seen, and share as appropriate to this forum.

I have a 556 now in part for old time's sake, and in part to maintain familiarity should I need it again in similar circumstances, although I haven't run this one nearly as hard as the Swiss manufactured models. The M4 is a much more thoroughly tested and supported platform; likewise the AK. However, if one needs an alternative, the option is out there. Whether this is one best suited as a first choice in a permissive market for domestic use is a different story. Here, many of the commentators elsewhere in the thread have made very good points regarding the benefits of having the same gun as others as far as spares, armorer assistance, etc. Compatibility choices are better now for the platform with the 556 and 556R mag options, but it is still a different beast.

[jetfire]

Pretty much the post title. Depending on which website I end up at I either get a lot of people in love with the gun or a lot of people bitching about QC issues and problems with the gun. It hard to be able to cut through the BS and see who is right.

MSRP on a base Sig 556 is $1200.

MSRP on a base model M&P 15 from S&W, which is a pretty well respected and reviewed rifle is about the same.

So, on the one hand you have from a company with a rep for spotty QC of late that doesn't take standard parts, or for the same price you can get a rifle from a company with a good rep that takes standard AR parts. HMMMMM

I say this by the way being a huge Sig fanboy.

[Crow Hunter]

Thanks to everyone for their responses.

Very interesting reading.

[ToddG]

Why is the 552 so well respected?

Because this:
http://greent.com/webimg/552/552-open.jpg

... would fit in this:
http://greent.com/webimg/552/552-helmet.jpg

Fighter jocks can keep their helmets. I'll take a 552, light, red dot, and sixty rounds of 75gr TAP any day.

(sadly, my possession of that gun ended at the same moment as my employment at SIG... it's one of the very few things I miss)

[Sparks2112]

Why is the 552 so well respected?

Because this:
http://greent.com/webimg/552/552-open.jpg

... would fit in this:
http://greent.com/webimg/552/552-helmet.jpg

Fighter jocks can keep their helmets. I'll take a 552, light, red dot, and sixty rounds of 75gr TAP any day.

(sadly, my possession of that gun ended at the same moment as my employment at SIG... it's one of the very few things I miss)

Is that a happy switch? :)

[ToddG]

Is that a happy switch? :)

That's the only way 552's were ever brought into the U.S. While there were some semi-only 551's (14" bbl), the 8.9" 552 was 0-1-F only.

[jstyer]

So.... much.... JEALOUSY!!!

[Sparks2112]

That's the only way 552's were ever brought into the U.S. While there were some semi-only 551's (14" bbl), the 8.9" 552 was 0-1-F only.

Uhm, do all their employees get one of those? Because if so.... :cool:

[ToddG]

No. I had the 552, a 551, and a 551 semiauto.

[Pk14]

Why is the 552 so well respected?

"Because this:


Fighter jocks can keep their helmets. I'll take a 552, light, red dot, and sixty rounds of 75gr TAP any day.

(sadly, my possession of that gun ended at the same moment as my employment at SIG... it's one of the very few things I miss)"



Weeeellll...I'd respectfully disagree. My M61 6-barrel gatling gun with a -D's HUD, NVD's, APG-71, Long-range Optical Camera, and 600 rds of 20mm HE and DP rounds was a pretty cool package to play with.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q43/Pk14_photos/f14059.jpg

Plus, the chicks dig it.

(sadly, my possession of that gun also ended at the same moment I hung up my spurs and left Active Duty).

Cheers,
Pk

[mongooseman]

Looking for the popcorn smiley while waiting for someone to one up Todd and PK:D

[ToddG]

Yours didn't fit in a helmet bag. So I still win. :cool:
(at least, that's what I'm going to tell myself...)

[orionz06]

The Sig 556 can't do a 4g negative dive...

[ToddG]

The Sig 556 can't do a 4g negative dive...

<insert SIG-Sauer quality control joke here>

[jetfire]

The Sig 556 can't do a 4g negative dive...

I was inverted in a negative 4G dive with a Sig 556. I've got a great Polaroid.

[Pk14]

Yours didn't fit in a helmet bag. So I still win. :cool:
(at least, that's what I'm going to tell myself...)

Fair enough...although I haven't seen many guys sporting the helmet bag as the neo-man-purse either. You always were the trendsetter!

(For the 'on-topic' crowd, the 552 is one awesome SBR. Haven't tried the 556).

And > -2 Negative 'G's' are no fun.

See you at the range!

Pk

[mrozowjj]

Fair enough...although I haven't seen many guys sporting the helmet bag as the neo-man-purse either. You always were the trendsetter!

(For the 'on-topic' crowd, the 552 is one awesome SBR. Haven't tried the 556).

And > -2 Negative 'G's' are no fun.

See you at the range!

Pk

Completely off topic now but I used to use one to carry my motorcycle helmet when I used to ride. Didn't have anywhere to store the thing on the bike. I'd get some strange looks sometimes with it though.