Can NAVY SEALS Convince GREEN BERET to Switch to Sig Sauer -- Parts 1 and 2

[Tokarev]

Some interesting points. Not the first time we've heard complaints about the Glock grip angle. Also not the first time we've seen discussions on slide back plate index.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lElS7twnbzU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6AYYV38Z1w&t=1864s

[CCT125US]

Watched this when first released. Content aside, I have found the rabbit trail this took me down very enlightening.

[Patrick Taylor]

How much do you think SIG paid for those commercials?

[Clusterfrack]

I'm not convinced. At all.

[MVS]

I haven't watched part 2 yet. No doubt these guys are certified badasses but the video doesn't flow too well IMHO. Not sure which gun Mike is using but it is not the current Sig Max that is for sure. Looks more like an AXG pro. Can't get on board with their "instinctive" shooting evangelism. Is it really instinctive shooting when you have had thousands of hours of training and hundreds of thousands of rounds of practice?

[Clusterfrack]

I haven't watched part 2 yet. No doubt these guys are certified badasses but the video doesn't flow too well IMHO. Not sure which gun Mike is using but it is not the current Sig Max that is for sure. Looks more like an AXG pro. Can't get on board with their "instinctive" shooting evangelism. Is it really instinctive shooting when you have had thousands of hours of training and hundreds of thousands of rounds of practice?

My problem isn't with using the slide to confirm alignment of the gun on target. That's a totally valid method for shots of low difficulty. I reject that the Sig is somehow better for this than Glocks or any other handgun. And grip angle is more of a preference than anything else. If there were a big advantage to high or low grip angles, we would see top competitive shooters gravitating to that angle.

Skilled shooters often assume that they way they do it is the best, and is required to achieve a high level of shooting.

The most valuable thing I took from these videos is "use a gun that fits your hand".

[JohnO]

Hey wait a minute I remember seeing this:


https://youtu.be/InQc_7ynrW4

Mike is new to Sig??

[Navin Johnson]

Very well done infomercial.

Favorite: "It's how a gun should feel"

i love the comparison of the full sized sig to the G19 and then saying how good a G17 and G34 are.

I wonder what their team number was?

[Hambo]

Hey wait a minute I remember seeing this:

Mike is new to Sig??

They needed a time machine to go back and convince him.

[MVS]

My favorite and least favorite comments come within seconds of each other. DJ says, "grip matters". Ya dude. Then seconds later he completely loses me when he says, "if I pull this gun out of the holster someone is getting shot". No way dude! There are people who hang on every words these guys say because of their pedigree. You can't tell regular people that if they draw their gun they have to shoot someone. People will take what they say as gospel.

[Mark D]

My favorite and least favorite comments come within seconds of each other. DJ says, "grip matters". Ya dude. Then seconds later he completely loses me when he says, "if I pull this gun out of the holster someone is getting shot". No way dude! There are people who hang on every words these guys say because of their pedigree. You can't tell regular people that if they draw their gun they have to shoot someone. People will take what they say as gospel.

Mike Glover says a ton of stupid shit. His military pedigree not withstanding, I wish he'd shut up about self protection.

For folks wondering about DJ Shipley, he was at Devgru. Shawn Ryan* recently had a lengthy interview with him. I thought it was very interesting, especially when he discussed the challenges towards the end of his active service.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWJ_WwWSabw


(*Shawn Ryan has been on my "ignore list" ever since he reviewed a baby Glock and demonstrated poor marksmanship and general ignorance about handguns. That said, he's an excellent interviewer, mainly because he asks a question and then lets his guests talk.)

[JHC]

Junk food

[YVK]

I don't have an hour for this. Cliff notes?

[HCountyGuy]

I don't have an hour for this. Cliff notes?

Basically guys pimping out their experience from their former day jobs to give their opinions on their preferred handguns because “used by special forces”.

[Tensaw]

Mostly off topic - Mike Glover sat down with Jocko for a multi-hour interview. If half of what was said is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Glover has put a bunch of dudes in the dirt whilst operating in a variety of austere conditions. Pretty much the definition of “been there, done that.” I found him fairly humble, or at least matter of fact about his background, to boot. That said, more recently I have tried to listen to his material that he has put out connected with Fieldcraft Survival and have found him to cater to folks who know very little about whatever subject matter he is speaking on. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, but I have been unable to mine any gems from what he has put forth. [No joke, the knowledge base available here at PF about any topic under the sun routinely outstrips the material I have heard him put out.] Again, Glover clearly has the resume and comes off as super legit, it’s just what I’ve heard from him on technical stuff hasn’t increased *my* knowledge.

Ryan lost me very early on with his general attitude and I will leave it at that.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

The biggest problem I have with Glock is everything else i have has more 1911ish angle to the grip. This means when I take to the Glock I will for certain have to take that extra step DJ mentions to crank the muzzle down to get the proper alignment. This does, however, to my knowledge lock the wrist to benefits recoil control. There's no free lunch. Glock is not wrong but the grip angle was taken from a very naturally pointable gun, the Luger.

The Luger is a completely different design (steel frame, etc) and I do feel the makeup of the Glock frame in addition to the angle and girth (especially the full sized ones) causes many problem for everyone who isn't highly trained to not shoot at a high level and also suffer limp wristing issues. I would expect in actual Combat uses where compromises grips are common the Sig would be much more reliable, we see TONS of malfunctioned Glock Cop shoots.

[Wake27]

The biggest problem I have with Glock is everything else i have has more 1911ish angle to the grip. This means when I take to the Glock I will for certain have to take that extra step DJ mentions to crank the muzzle down to get the proper alignment. This does, however, to my knowledge lock the wrist to benefits recoil control. There's no free lunch. Glock is not wrong but the grip angle was taken from a very naturally pointable gun, the Luger.

The Luger is a completely different design (steel frame, etc) and I do feel the makeup of the Glock frame in addition to the angle and girth (especially the full sized ones) causes many problem for everyone who isn't highly trained to not shoot at a high level and also suffer limp wristing issues. I would expect in actual Combat uses where compromises grips are common the Sig would be much more reliable, we see TONS of malfunctioned Glock Cop shoots.

One thing to consider though is that many of the guys that carry Glocks into military combat typically have a good amount of time on them.


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[HCM]

Mostly off topic - Mike Glover sat down with Jocko for a multi-hour interview. If half of what was said is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Glover has put a bunch of dudes in the dirt whilst operating in a variety of austere conditions. Pretty much the definition of “been there, done that.” I found him fairly humble, or at least matter of fact about his background, to boot. That said, more recently I have tried to listen to his material that he has put out connected with Fieldcraft Survival and have found him to cater to folks who know very little about whatever subject matter he is speaking on. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, but I have been unable to mine any gems from what he has put forth. [No joke, the knowledge base available here at PF about any topic under the sun routinely outstrips the material I have heard him put out.] Again, Glover clearly has the resume and comes off as super legit, it’s just what I’ve heard from him on technical stuff hasn’t increased *my* knowledge.

Ryan lost me very early on with his general attitude and I will leave it at that.

Mike Glover is a real deal dude who can “do it” /“Has done it”
But as an instructor he is….. Lacking.

Mr. Glover is a good example of what I have heard described as the “magic Johnson “effect
Two of the greatest basketball players of all time, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were both abject failures as coaches. They could do amazing things on the court but for a variety of reasons that did not translate into being able to help others to perform at a higher level.

[jellydonut]

Mostly off topic - Mike Glover sat down with Jocko for a multi-hour interview. If half of what was said is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Glover has put a bunch of dudes in the dirt whilst operating in a variety of austere conditions. Pretty much the definition of “been there, done that.” I found him fairly humble, or at least matter of fact about his background, to boot. That said, more recently I have tried to listen to his material that he has put out connected with Fieldcraft Survival and have found him to cater to folks who know very little about whatever subject matter he is speaking on. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, but I have been unable to mine any gems from what he has put forth. [No joke, the knowledge base available here at PF about any topic under the sun routinely outstrips the material I have heard him put out.] Again, Glover clearly has the resume and comes off as super legit, it’s just what I’ve heard from him on technical stuff hasn’t increased *my* knowledge.

Ryan lost me very early on with his general attitude and I will leave it at that.

I like Mike Glover as a person but he has adjusted his output to suit the almighty algorithm of youtube. You can tell by these obnoxious titles that all these youtubers use, like this one, the ultra-annoying "x REACTS to y" title format, and the sheer length of the videos. YT algorithm rewards longer videos up to a point.

I'm not sure if he's doing it subconsciously or if he's actively trying to game the algorithm, but the end result is content that is not relevant to people like PF forumgoers any more.

His stuff is much more tolerable on instagram, where content comes in 1 minute bites.

[littlejerry]

Is PF really going to have a Glock grip angle debate?

Anyone who can't train through the minor ergo differences on any of the common platforms has bigger problems. I've seen newbie shooters gravitate to all platforms and grip angles. One is not better than the rest, and even the one that doesn't "point naturally" is still capable of high performance.

Reaching proficiency with a pistol is about doing the work to get there, not debating grip angles.

[Maca]

lets also understand that every one of these retired .mil guys is on youtube for the money (rightfully so). They are creating entertaining content that either promotes their own line of products or products made by brands that compensate them for their work.

Sig has done a great job of getting their brand woven into content - just pick up a book from Jack Carr and his characters are armed with Sig guns. Watch his Youtube video and see a PAID promotion of Sig products.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Is PF really going to have a Glock grip angle debate?

Anyone who can't train through the minor ergo differences on any of the common platforms has bigger problems. I've seen newbie shooters gravitate to all platforms and grip angles. One is not better than the rest, and even the one that doesn't "point naturally" is still capable of high performance.

Reaching proficiency with a pistol is about doing the work to get there, not debating grip angles.

DJ's argument is not one of can you run a Glock well, it's whether most people would have a shorter learning curve with something that aligns more instinctively for them personally. I don't know about what he's saying being true but I certainly buy into the whole instinctive firing without verifying sights being a real thing and point shooting is very common when bullets start flying and you have to react fast. What he's arguing is that after running Sigs for years and trying to transition to Glock's many of these 'operators' who he trained with didn't have an easy transition. These are guys with more training than most and they are having a hard time. If you run Glock's you better stick with them, otherwise stay away from them... that's what I'd tell people anyways.

[MistWolf]

Is PF really going to have a Glock grip angle debate?

Anyone who can't train through the minor ergo differences on any of the common platforms has bigger problems. I've seen newbie shooters gravitate to all platforms and grip angles. One is not better than the rest, and even the one that doesn't "point naturally" is still capable of high performance.

Reaching proficiency with a pistol is about doing the work to get there, not debating grip angles.

I don't discuss grip angles because there's no discussion to be had. Not because grip angle doesn't matter but because all too often the discussion devolves into "if you can't shoot a Glock, you can't shoot" or "suck it up, buttercup and put in the work".

I am fortunate that as a slobvilian, I don't have to shoot a Glock. For me, dealing with the Glock grip angle is more work. That means time and ammo. A good friend of mine has carried a Glock for years, shot it well and always told there is no other duty handgun for him. He's has recently switched to another handgun. It surprised me. After the switch, he admitted he carried a Glock only because it was required by his agency. (The agency has since changed its policy.) He never liked the grip angle even after shooting his Glock enough to wear out his barrel.

I'm not saying because I don't like the grip angle the Glock is a horrible handgun. But when I do point out the grip angle isn't for me, I get treated like that's what I am saying and it gets old.

So yeah- I don't like the Glock grip angle so there's no reason to discuss it.

[Wake27]

DJ's argument is not one of can you run a Glock well, it's whether most people would have a shorter learning curve with something that aligns more instinctively for them personally. I don't know about what he's saying being true but I certainly buy into the whole instinctive firing without verifying sights being a real thing and point shooting is very common when bullets start flying and you have to react fast. What he's arguing is that after running Sigs for years and trying to transition to Glock's many of these 'operators' who he trained with didn't have an easy transition. These are guys with more training than most and they are having a hard time. If you run Glock's you better stick with them, otherwise stay away from them... that's what I'd tell people anyways.

More training that most means that habits are more engrained than most, therefore it makes sense that it’s a harder transition.


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[Guerrero]

Sig has done a great job of getting their brand woven into content - just pick up a book from Jack Carr and his characters are armed with Sig guns. Watch his Youtube video and see a PAID promotion of Sig products.

If only Sig put more of that sweet, sweet marketing money into QC.

[Maca]

If only Sig put more of that sweet, sweet marketing money into QC.

Agreed, but dollar for dollar, product placement generates a better ROI.

I learned my lesson twice in the recent years. Purchased an early 365xl, and had issues. Placed a deposit on a Cross at the sig academy pro shop, and was refunded when Sig ran into issues with the initial batch of rifles.

[fixer]

If only Sig put more of that sweet, sweet marketing money into QC.

Double and triple this.

[Mercworx]

What’s going on culturally in the veteran community?

I mean stylistically, lately its always some sort of “consultant” group that all look like they are professional skateboarders rather than former military. Every other word is an expletive to the point that sometimes I lose track of the actually content they are trying to share. Or on the other hand it’s some sort of homo erotic over sexualized video that depicts veterans as drunken buffoons. Also they all seem to sell T shirts and stickers.


Edit: I looked into more of this “groups” videos.

[Dave Williams]

I think I have PTSD after listening to the Shipley/Ryan podcast. Holy crap!!

[Clusterfrack]

If you run Glock's you better stick with them, otherwise stay away from them... that's what I'd tell people anyways.

One could say the same thing about Berettas, 1911s, and Sigs.

Developing a reliable natural point of aim (index) takes practice. I don't buy that a more vertical grip is more intuitive.

[Wake27]

What’s going on culturally in the veteran community?

I mean stylistically, lately its always some sort of “consultant” group that all look like they are professional skateboarders rather than former military. Every other word is an expletive to the point that sometimes I lose track of the actually content they are trying to share. Or on the other hand it’s some sort of homo erotic over sexualized video that depicts veterans as drunken buffoons. Also they all seem to sell T shirts and stickers.


Edit: I looked into more of this “groups” videos.

You mean the beards, hair, and tattoos?

I’m not sure if there’s ever been a time that expletives weren’t common in the military…


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[JHC]

I don't have an hour for this. Cliff notes?

Pfft. Not even.

[breakingtime91]

Pfft. Not even.

yup. Combat experience and cool guy jobs don't make good teachers. Sometimes good teachers just happen to be former action guys. Look at Kyle defoor, very humble guy and from what I hear a great instructor. Then you have the asian jedi and Gabe white, not former action guys but fantastic teachers.

Nothing in the video struck me as anything to write home about besides the fact that the veteran community/gun community seems to value shorter and lighter striker triggers without thought to the inheret dangers of that for the average civilian (shit the average military member) where gun handling is 99% and 1% is shooting in the lifespan of them carrying a sidearm.

I had that revelation when I trained with Haley Strategic, great guys and pretty good shooters. But I learned very little from the instructor portion of the class, just that my stance needed work because I was lazy and my draw needed to be cleaned up.

[JHC]

yup. Combat experience and cool guy jobs don't make good teachers. Sometimes good teachers just happen to be former action guys. Look at Kyle defoor, very humble guy and from what I hear a great instructor. Then you have the asian jedi and Gabe white, not former action guys but fantastic teachers.

Nothing in the video struck me as anything to write home about besides the fact that the veteran community/gun community seems to value shorter and lighter striker triggers without thought to the inheret dangers of that for the average civilian (shit the average military member) where gun handling is 99% and 1% is shooting in the lifespan of them carrying a sidearm.

I had that revelation when I trained with Haley Strategic, great guys and pretty good shooters. But I learned very little from the instructor portion of the class, just that my stance needed work because I was lazy and my draw needed to be cleaned up.

Clicks. Clicks. Clicks. Then see Noners last couple months. Incredible stuff working with LE re around vehicles. Ooof!

[Mercworx]

You mean the beards, hair, and tattoos?

I’m not sure if there’s ever been a time that expletives weren’t common in the military…


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That a good point. I’ve used more than my fare share.


No I don’t mean the beard hair and tattoos more the aesthetic of the company logo, apparel etc. GBRS group, Goon Squad, FOB Group, seems to be a trend style wise.

[breakingtime91]

Clicks. Clicks. Clicks. Then see Noners last couple months. Incredible stuff working with LE re around vehicles. Ooof!

I also recall Mike saying he carries a glock 43.. so idk. I love the slim line glocks for what they are but if you are going to say how good xyz is, you should carry it year round

[Wake27]

Clicks. Clicks. Clicks. Then see Noners last couple months. Incredible stuff working with LE re around vehicles. Ooof!

Oddly I was thinking the same thing about him. I didn’t get much out of the class I took with Mike Pannone.


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[JHC]

I also recall Mike saying he carries a glock 43.. so idk. I love the slim line glocks for what they are but if you are going to say how good xyz is, you should carry it year round

You saw the shooting he did with the 43. Made the point yes? So now he’s on a Staccato. Grabs everyone it seems. Kevin B comes to mind. 😎

[Navin Johnson]

If only Sig put more of that sweet, sweet marketing money into QC.

QC does not sell guns to the average person....SF operators do....

[breakingtime91]

You saw the shooting he did with the 43. Made the point yes? So now he’s on a Staccato. Grabs everyone it seems. Kevin B comes to mind. 😎

The staccato is a gun I want. But don't need. I've been debating selling my 228 to fund one.. lol

[Clusterfrack]

QC does not sell guns to the average person....SF operators do....


The staccato is a gun I want. But don't need. I've been debating selling my 228 to fund one.. lol

... does not sell guns to the average person....John Wick does...

[tlong17]

Not the best videos. Cringed a bit actually.

And I've come around to the thought that the gun doesn't matter, for the most part.

[spinmove_]

Not the best videos. Cringed a bit actually.

And I've come around to the thought that the gun doesn't matter, for the most part.

It really doesn’t for the most part. It sort of boils down to what ergos you’re most comfortable with and how reliable the platform is. Once you settle on something, it’s optimal to simply stick with that platform, learn it’s idiosyncrasies, and compensate for it’s shortcomings as best as you can, because they ALL have shortcomings in some capacity. Beyond that, it’s minutiae unless you're competing at the very high end levels of competition.

[Guerrero]

In general, the (literal and figurative) greybeards around P-F always remind us that the gun requirements for LEO/Mil/etc. will be different from a "civilian" concealed-carrier. So, there's no "best" gun, regardless of what SEAL's and Green Berets say.

I dunno, something about "mission driving the gear train."

[awp_101]

Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were both abject failures as coaches. They could do amazing things on the court but for a variety of reasons that did not translate into being able to help others to perform at a higher level.
See also, Ted Williams

[JHC]

Mostly off topic - Mike Glover sat down with Jocko for a multi-hour interview. If half of what was said is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), Glover has put a bunch of dudes in the dirt whilst operating in a variety of austere conditions. Pretty much the definition of “been there, done that.” I found him fairly humble, or at least matter of fact about his background, to boot. That said, more recently I have tried to listen to his material that he has put out connected with Fieldcraft Survival and have found him to cater to folks who know very little about whatever subject matter he is speaking on. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, but I have been unable to mine any gems from what he has put forth. [No joke, the knowledge base available here at PF about any topic under the sun routinely outstrips the material I have heard him put out.] Again, Glover clearly has the resume and comes off as super legit, it’s just what I’ve heard from him on technical stuff hasn’t increased *my* knowledge.

Ryan lost me very early on with his general attitude and I will leave it at that.

Well put, I totally agree. I am generally a fan in the realm of Glover's BTDT experience and skills. I have a weakness I'm not working to fix and that is I tune out fast when one's BTDT lane has been thoroughly left and I start getting life coach advice or political consulting. And the subjects of this thread are not necessarily severe offenders in that area. But it's pretty common in the genre.

[TCinVA]

Is PF really going to have a Glock grip angle debate?

Anyone who can't train through the minor ergo differences on any of the common platforms has bigger problems. I've seen newbie shooters gravitate to all platforms and grip angles. One is not better than the rest, and even the one that doesn't "point naturally" is still capable of high performance.

Reaching proficiency with a pistol is about doing the work to get there, not debating grip angles.

I wouldn't have a grip angle debate.

I would state outright that Gaston Glock was not an ergonomic genius and his pistol is sufficient testament to his deficits in that regard.

With dedicated practice, you can become proficient with even unsuitable equipment...but that doesn't remove the fact that the equipment is unsuitable. And the unsuitable nature of the equipment usually bites hardest under the highest levels of stress.

Factory stocks for old S&W revolvers are very, very valuable. They are valuable because they are rare. They are rare because it was exceptionally common to ditch them for something that fit one's hand better. The fit of the gun to the hand is rather important on a firearm we control using our hands. That has sort of been lost in the semi-auto era...although the 1911's continued popularity probably has a lot to do with the fit of the gun in the hand as much as the cheater trigger.

I've watched shooters improve as much as 30% by simply getting them behind a pistol that fit their hands better. Even subtle differences like the differences between a Glock 48 and a S&W Shield + that seem insignificant on paper turn out to have dramatic impacts on how well the gun works for that person. The unsuitable gun makes learning more frustrating, progress slower, and seriously demotivates people from doing the work that is necessary to build proficiency.

I'm proficient with my Gen5 Glock 17. It's still a hateful fucking thing to use. I have to actively choose between making the gun fit me worse or being cut badly enough by the slide that I pretty much have to stop about 100 rounds into a session. The shape of the grip in my hands...and in many others...contributes to a tendency to steer the gun in the trigger's overtravel right at the golden milliseconds where the bullet hasn't quite left the barrel yet.

Yes, I can compensate for these tendencies. I've gotten pretty good at doing so.

They are still there. And I'd rather they not be.

Get a gun that actually fits you is good advice.

I got a gun that doesn't fit me well because I had other things I was working on that the G17 package offered. (Like the ease of mounting a good optic to an MOS gun while allowing safer reholstering with an SCD) And I also had the luxury of regular access to the range and ammunition that's a tax deduction. And after putting about 20,000 rounds downrange and making several customizations, anyone watching me shoot wouldn't see that I still intensely dislike the thing from how I perform with it.

[TGS]

Well put, I totally agree. I am generally a fan in the realm of Glover's BTDT experience and skills. I have a weakness I'm not working to fix and that is I tune out fast when one's BTDT lane has been thoroughly left and I start getting life coach advice or political consulting. And the subjects of this thread are not necessarily severe offenders in that area. But it's pretty common in the genre.

Enter the YouTube video from a year or so ago where some navy seal or green beret decided to hang out his shingle and offered active shooter response advice such as making your way through a crowd towards police while holding your gun in your hand behind your flank...

....something that will undoubtedly, 10000% of time get you fucking shot by the police, and rightly so.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I wouldn't have a grip angle debate.

I would state outright that Gaston Glock was not an ergonomic genius and his pistol is sufficient testament to his deficits in that regard.

With dedicated practice, you can become proficient with even unsuitable equipment...but that doesn't remove the fact that the equipment is unsuitable. And the unsuitable nature of the equipment usually bites hardest under the highest levels of stress.

Factory stocks for old S&W revolvers are very, very valuable. They are valuable because they are rare. They are rare because it was exceptionally common to ditch them for something that fit one's hand better. The fit of the gun to the hand is rather important on a firearm we control using our hands. That has sort of been lost in the semi-auto era...although the 1911's continued popularity probably has a lot to do with the fit of the gun in the hand as much as the cheater trigger.

I've watched shooters improve as much as 30% by simply getting them behind a pistol that fit their hands better. Even subtle differences like the differences between a Glock 48 and a S&W Shield + that seem insignificant on paper turn out to have dramatic impacts on how well the gun works for that person. The unsuitable gun makes learning more frustrating, progress slower, and seriously demotivates people from doing the work that is necessary to build proficiency.

I'm proficient with my Gen5 Glock 17. It's still a hateful fucking thing to use. I have to actively choose between making the gun fit me worse or being cut badly enough by the slide that I pretty much have to stop about 100 rounds into a session. The shape of the grip in my hands...and in many others...contributes to a tendency to steer the gun in the trigger's overtravel right at the golden milliseconds where the bullet hasn't quite left the barrel yet.

Yes, I can compensate for these tendencies. I've gotten pretty good at doing so.

They are still there. And I'd rather they not be.

Get a gun that actually fits you is good advice.

I got a gun that doesn't fit me well because I had other things I was working on that the G17 package offered. (Like the ease of mounting a good optic to an MOS gun while allowing safer reholstering with an SCD) And I also had the luxury of regular access to the range and ammunition that's a tax deduction. And after putting about 20,000 rounds downrange and making several customizations, anyone watching me shoot wouldn't see that I still intensely dislike the thing from how I perform with it.

All the people that claim 'It's you' and not the gun... well... I put it like driving a car without power steering. Sure, it'll 'work' just fine but it's going to be a hell of a lot harder to achieve your desired results having to put all that effort into just steering the thing.

So, the thing is I just bought a Glock 19x to fill a rather specific niche of something I can carry all day at home in a shoulder rig from Mitch Rosen (he only does a few models for this). That said, I've come to remember all the reasons I ditched the Glock years ago and wish I'd have grabbed an M18.

That said, he doesn't make that rig for the M18 so I'm going to just run this G19x for a bit and see if things get better for me since a decade ago.

[CCT125US]

I'm still waiting for some HSLD BTDT YouTube star to validate my P2000sk LEM.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

I'm still waiting for some HSLD BTDT YouTube star to validate my P2000sk LEM.

I'm not holding my breath.

It's almost 2022, there are something like a dozen genders now officially... I don't think we need to validate our carry pieces lol.

[JHC]

I don't have an hour for this. Cliff notes?

re Sig P226 - DA first shot, basically just to get it cocked (single action).

[spinmove_]

re Sig P226 - DA first shot, basically just to get it cocked (single action).

Add in a little “SIG grip feel good in hand”, “single action striker trigger go BRRRRRRR”, and “sights are a luxury half the time” and that’s basically it.

[spinmove_]

I wouldn't have a grip angle debate.

I would state outright that Gaston Glock was not an ergonomic genius and his pistol is sufficient testament to his deficits in that regard.

With dedicated practice, you can become proficient with even unsuitable equipment...but that doesn't remove the fact that the equipment is unsuitable. And the unsuitable nature of the equipment usually bites hardest under the highest levels of stress.

Factory stocks for old S&W revolvers are very, very valuable. They are valuable because they are rare. They are rare because it was exceptionally common to ditch them for something that fit one's hand better. The fit of the gun to the hand is rather important on a firearm we control using our hands. That has sort of been lost in the semi-auto era...although the 1911's continued popularity probably has a lot to do with the fit of the gun in the hand as much as the cheater trigger.

I've watched shooters improve as much as 30% by simply getting them behind a pistol that fit their hands better. Even subtle differences like the differences between a Glock 48 and a S&W Shield + that seem insignificant on paper turn out to have dramatic impacts on how well the gun works for that person. The unsuitable gun makes learning more frustrating, progress slower, and seriously demotivates people from doing the work that is necessary to build proficiency.

I'm proficient with my Gen5 Glock 17. It's still a hateful fucking thing to use. I have to actively choose between making the gun fit me worse or being cut badly enough by the slide that I pretty much have to stop about 100 rounds into a session. The shape of the grip in my hands...and in many others...contributes to a tendency to steer the gun in the trigger's overtravel right at the golden milliseconds where the bullet hasn't quite left the barrel yet.

Yes, I can compensate for these tendencies. I've gotten pretty good at doing so.

They are still there. And I'd rather they not be.

Get a gun that actually fits you is good advice.

I got a gun that doesn't fit me well because I had other things I was working on that the G17 package offered. (Like the ease of mounting a good optic to an MOS gun while allowing safer reholstering with an SCD) And I also had the luxury of regular access to the range and ammunition that's a tax deduction. And after putting about 20,000 rounds downrange and making several customizations, anyone watching me shoot wouldn't see that I still intensely dislike the thing from how I perform with it.

100% agree.

The only things keeping Glocks in my safe right now are SCDs, my GSSF membership, and the fact that they’re all well vetted pieces and I hate letting go of something that stupid reliable. Can I shoot them as well as my Beretta 92s that I’ve technically had far less trigger time on? Eh, not quite, but close. But there’s the rub, right? It’s taken far less effort and rounds to shoot 92s better than Glocks because they fit better and don’t have garbage triggers.

I haven’t gotten into the red dot game yet, but that’s going to happen one way or the other in the next couple years. Hell, my first dot gun will probably be a Glock because: GSSF. Will I stay there? Unless I suddenly become irreparably poor, absolutely not.

[Clusterfrack]

Glocks fit my hands quite well. In my hands, the slab-sided shape is unambiguous in gripping the gun properly, unlike more "ergonomic" shaped grips like the M&P, HK, and some Sigs. I have a strong preference for less vertical grip angles because they index more consistently and make locking my wrists easier.

IMO, the Glock trigger is a good choice for a defense gun, but does require more practice to shoot accurately than fully-tensioned striker guns.

Glock parts and magazine compatibility and a long track record of reliability make them my default handgun.

I will never own another Sig 320, for reasons that are easy to find in multiple threads here on P-F.

[Leroy Suggs]

Glocks fit my hands quite well. In my hands, the slab-sided shape is unambiguous in gripping the gun properly, unlike more "ergonomic" shaped grips like the M&P, HK, and some Sigs. I have a strong preference for less vertical grip angles because they index more consistently and make locking my wrists easier.

IMO, the Glock trigger is a good choice for a defense gun, but does require more practice to shoot accurately than fully-tensioned striker guns.

Glock parts and magazine compatibility and a long track record of reliability make them my default handgun.

I will never own another Sig 320, for reasons that are easy to find in multiple threads here on P-F.

I can't like a post but once so I'm saying I LIKE YOUR POST.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Glocks fit my hands quite well. In my hands, the slab-sided shape is unambiguous in gripping the gun properly, unlike more "ergonomic" shaped grips like the M&P, HK, and some Sigs. I have a strong preference for less vertical grip angles because they index more consistently and make locking my wrists easier.

IMO, the Glock trigger is a good choice for a defense gun, but does require more practice to shoot accurately than fully-tensioned striker guns.

Glock parts and magazine compatibility and a long track record of reliability make them my default handgun.

I will never own another Sig 320, for reasons that are easy to find in multiple threads here on P-F.

What are the current problems with the 320? We've all read of the striker drop issues but I thought they were pretty well good to go at this point? I've been eyeing an M18 and just bought a coyote brown Raven Perun to go with it once I cobble together funding.

I have an interest in mainly just a few pistols that I want to experience at this point. The interest in the 320 mainly stems from the fact that our military is moving to them exclusively. This may mean in the long term Glock loses substantial marketshare as more LE's ride off the military contracts.

If that were the case, you'd see the 320 share many of the benefits of Glock in holster selection, etc... which already seem pretty similar in the brands I like for that gear. Still not exactly though and I don't know anything about parts or ease of maintaining or modding.

I will say this, SIG does appear to be taking over on many fronts. They have the marketing and a pretty good read on what to design and deliver. It would not surprise me at all if the 320 ended up finally becoming that 'Glock killer' we've heard for the last decade in the end since .MIL went that route.

The other interest I have is in the M9A4 because it's just always been 'that gun' since my childhood watching Martin Riggs and John McClane be badass's using the the M9. They now have quite the following with Wilson and Langdon getting on that boat.

The last is the PX4, which will probably never be popular but... who knows.

[Clusterfrack]

What are the current problems with the 320? We've all read of the striker drop issues but I thought they were pretty well good to go at this point?

It’s possible that despite horrible engineering blunders, including drop safety issues and magazine overinsertion destroying FCUs, Sig has finally worked the bugs out.

I’m not interested because for me they don’t offer enough possible advantages to overlook Sig’s track record.

[WobblyPossum]

What are the current problems with the 320? We've all read of the striker drop issues but I thought they were pretty well good to go at this point?


I think the design is sound now. At least the drop safety issues should be over for any gun made after summer 2019 I believe. It’s not a perfect design, for sure, with some very odd engineering choices like the ejector being integral to the FCU. Several people in my agency, including a member on this forum, have bent ejectors through vigorous reloads with longer magazines. That deadlines the gun because an armorer can’t just replace an ejector like with practically every other design.

My bigger issues are with Sig as a company. There is the steady decline in quality with corresponding decline in QA/QC. There’s the awful way they handled the drop safety issues. There’s other shady practices, as well. One of the firearms instructors at my agency attended an armorers course a couple of years back in which the instructor stated that only the “Made in Italy” marked magazines should be used for duty/carry and not the “Made in USA” marked magazines. As far as I know, no one in a civilian/non-LE armorers class had ever been told this and it wasn’t a topic of discussion in the normal gun world. I’m sure the “Made in USA” mags are better now, but it’s pretty messed up to have two types of magazines available and tell some people that only one of the two is durable/reliable enough for defensive use but not tell the other group.

I say all this as someone wearing an AIWB P320 as I type. It’s my agency gun and it’s been reliable for the 3000ish rounds I’ve put through it so far. I figure it will work just fine. I shoot it about as well as I shot my Glock 19 when I was carrying that. I don’t have anything against the guns but they don’t blow my skirt up any more than any other generic polymer-framed striker guns do. I’d much rather be carrying a metal-framed, hammer-fired, DA/SA gun like a B92 or a P229 but that’s not an option so whatever. To paraphrase John Lennon: “I’m a professional. You give me any reliable/functional handgun and I’ll make it work.”

[Coyotesfan97]

It’s possible that despite horrible engineering blunders, including drop safety issues and magazine overinsertion destroying FCUs, Sig has finally worked the bugs out.

I’m not interested because for me they don’t offer enough possible advantages to overlook Sig’s track record.

I was just at a birthday party with my old squad. I have none of the reasons why but I learned my department has just deauthorized all variants of the 320. We issue Glocks but the 320 was on the list as an authorized POW.

[EMC]

What’s going on culturally in the veteran community?

I mean stylistically, lately its always some sort of “consultant” group that all look like they are professional skateboarders rather than former military. Every other word is an expletive to the point that sometimes I lose track of the actually content they are trying to share. Or on the other hand it’s some sort of homo erotic over sexualized video that depicts veterans as drunken buffoons. Also they all seem to sell T shirts and stickers.


Edit: I looked into more of this “groups” videos.Coffee company vet bros....bro!

I once heard that the number one rule of special forces is to always look cool.

[TGS]

I mean stylistically, lately its always some sort of “consultant” group that all look like they are professional skateboarders rather than former military.


Consultant jobs are pretty typical for former SOF guys. Besides going the mercenary/PMC route, it's the most applicable way to transition their hard and soft skills into making money post military, especially when they are having trouble transitioning. There's a bunch of money to be made there, and it's largely cyclical.....a company will pop up, go at it for a few years, they'll finally get tired/finally "let go" and go do something else, and other companies from guys who recently got out will pop up to fill the void. Same thing with the guys who fill the contracts. A segment of our training cadre is filled using mostly former SOF guys, and that's pretty much how it works. When you're looking at high drive/high ego individuals like that, going cold turkey is often very destructive and working on training contracts often gives a smoother transition until an individual can accept being a civilian and changing gears entirely.

Now, when referring to the skateboarders, are you referring to the guys from GBRS Group in these videos mentioned by the OP? Because they/one of them actually owns/runs a skateboard company, so....

[Wake27]

Coffee company vet bros....bro!

I once heard that the number one rule of special forces is to always look cool.

That is literally rule number one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

re Sig P226 - DA first shot, basically just to get it cocked (single action).

Awesome. I recently read a post on another forum where a dude said he was a "designated and trained protective service officer" and they trained to thumb cock DA/SA on a draw. Dunno what's better.

[Hambo]

Awesome. I recently read a post on another forum where a dude said he was a "designated and trained protective service officer" and they trained to thumb cock DA/SA on a draw. Dunno what's better.

What's better is going to Ernie Langdon and learning how to shoot a DA/SA properly and well.

[rob_s]

Mike Glover is a real deal dude who can “do it” /“Has done it”
But as an instructor he is….. Lacking.

Mr. Glover is a good example of what I have heard described as the “magic Johnson “effect
Two of the greatest basketball players of all time, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan were both abject failures as coaches. They could do amazing things on the court but for a variety of reasons that did not translate into being able to help others to perform at a higher level.

I have a long-standing theory about that, which isn’t popular among the “you can do anything you put your mind to, with hard work” crowd.

The issue is talent. Someone that is naturally talented at something, even though they still have to put in a ton of reps to get to the level of Johnson and Jordan, doesn’t really understand the challenges faced by someone without that talent. “Just pull the trigger gooderer” from a shooting instructor, for example. Someone that has overcome a lack of talent is able to say “oh, I see what you’re doing there, you’re doing x minutiae when you should be doing y”.

“Instructors” vs “coaches” can overcome this with, ironically enough, self-aware reps. Eventually someone not talented at teaching will see enough bad practices and, provided they are self-aware enough, will begin to u dear stand how to correct them.

Combine all of that with a cult of personality (whether a former SEAL or former NBA player) and you’re not likely to see anyone telling them they are wrong very often, leading to them seeing themselves the same way, and often extending to people bestowing SME status on them for even un-related topics (I was once in a class with a former SEAL instructor and at the end when he did a Q&A one guy raptly asked “what brand of razor do you use to shave your head?” :rolleyes:)

[HCM]

I have a long-standing theory about that, which isn’t popular among the “you can do anything you put your mind to, with hard work” crowd.

The issue is talent. Someone that is naturally talented at something, even though they still have to put in a ton of reps to get to the level of Johnson and Jordan, doesn’t really understand the challenges faced by someone without that talent. “Just pull the trigger gooderer” from a shooting instructor, for example. Someone that has overcome a lack of talent is able to say “oh, I see what you’re doing there, you’re doing x minutiae when you should be doing y”.

“Instructors” vs “coaches” can overcome this with, ironically enough, self-aware reps. Eventually someone not talented at teaching will see enough bad practices and, provided they are self-aware enough, will begin to u dear stand how to correct them.

Combine all of that with a cult of personality (whether a former SEAL or former NBA player) and you’re not likely to see anyone telling them they are wrong very often, leading to them seeing themselves the same way, and often extending to people bestowing SME status on them for even un-related topics (I was once in a class with a former SEAL instructor and at the end when he did a Q&A one guy raptly asked “what brand of razor do you use to shave your head?” :rolleyes:)


I agree. However it is only part of the issue. An instructor, in this case a firearms instructor needs to be technically proficient, in this case able to shoot at a relatively high level. The subjects you’re referencing here have that, no question.

In my experience a successful firearms instructor or coach needs to other skill sets:

The ability to teach / present information which includes both the ability to communicate clearly and effectively and at least they working knowledge of adult learning principles.

And The ability to diagnose or spot errors and coach people through correct in them.

Unfortunately the ladder two are not recognized as skill sets of equal importance that require development.

[MistWolf]

I have a long-standing theory about that, which isn’t popular among the “you can do anything you put your mind to, with hard work” crowd.

The issue is talent. Someone that is naturally talented at something, even though they still have to put in a ton of reps to get to the level of Johnson and Jordan, doesn’t really understand the challenges faced by someone without that talent. “Just pull the trigger gooderer” from a shooting instructor, for example. Someone that has overcome a lack of talent is able to say “oh, I see what you’re doing there, you’re doing x minutiae when you should be doing y”.

“Instructors” vs “coaches” can overcome this with, ironically enough, self-aware reps. Eventually someone not talented at teaching will see enough bad practices and, provided they are self-aware enough, will begin to u dear stand how to correct them.

This is something I wrestle with in my professional field. Sometimes, when training a new technician, I come across something I've done so often I do it automatically. I have a hard time explaining it because I've forgotten how to explain it. I have to step back, take a deep breath and remind myself the failing is mine, not the student's.

[JHC]

I agree. However it is only part of the issue. An instructor, in this case a firearms instructor needs to be technically proficient, in this case able to shoot at a relatively high level. The subjects you’re referencing here have that, no question.

In my experience a successful firearms instructor or coach needs to other skill sets:

The ability to teach / present information which includes both the ability to communicate clearly and effectively and at least they working knowledge of adult learning principles.

And The ability to diagnose or spot errors and coach people through correct in them.

Unfortunately the ladder two are not recognized as skill sets of equal importance that require development.

I think that bolded part might be the toughest; to really "spot" it and correct it and not just keep repeating doctrinal explanations of mechanics.

I ran into that hard with the younger lad and his pistol work. With me he hit a low plateau and that was that. Frank Proctor one on one with him really improved his pistol shooting in short order (maybe an hour?).

I saw that with his big brother during his travel ball years. He was a very good hitter but got so much better when I gave up the job and he got in front of a solid batting coach. I was amazed by what that guy could spot at speed.

So yeah that!

[HCM]

I think that bolded part might be the toughest; to really "spot" it and correct it and not just keep repeating doctrinal explanations of mechanics.

I ran into that hard with the younger lad and his pistol work. With me he hit a low plateau and that was that. Frank Proctor one on one with him really improved his pistol shooting in short order (maybe an hour?).

I saw that with his big brother during his travel ball years. He was a very good hitter but got so much better when I gave up the job and he got in front of a solid batting coach. I was amazed by what that guy could spot at speed.

So yeah that!

Yep, you can’t fix a problem if you don’t know what the problem is.

Video, particularly slow motion video and software like coaches I are very useful in this regard.

In my experience video is not only helpful for me to spot problems but it’s very useful to be able to show the video to the shooter. I’ve had multiple instances where I have correctly spotted and or diagnosed a problem and the shooter refused to believe they were doing the particular action until they saw themselves doing it on video.

[TGS]

Awesome. I recently read a post on another forum where a dude said he was a "designated and trained protective service officer

i.e. security guard.

[JHC]

Yep, you can’t fix a problem if you don’t know what the problem is.

Video, particularly slow motion video and software like coaches I are very useful in this regard.

In my experience video is not only helpful for me to spot problems but it’s very useful to be able to show the video to the shooter. I’ve had multiple instances where I have correctly spotted and or diagnosed a problem and the shooter refused to believe they were doing the particular action until they saw themselves doing it on video.

OMG some years back chasing PF burner times from the holster video caught me cheating the finger into the trigger guard on draws and reloads. Never would have believed it without the vid. Taught me well.

[YVK]

i.e. security guard.

Part of our qualification was at 50 yards. The only way to be accurate for head shots at 50 yards is by hand cocking the pistol. Consequently, I learned at the shoot schools to thumb cock the DA/SA handguns as I draw them

That's a quote. I asked to clarify if his quals included 50 yards head shots. Never got a reply.

[littlejerry]

I took a class some years ago with Bob Vogle. He's an amazing shooter, but (at least at the time) not a brilliant coach.

At the end of the class I asked him "were there any instructors or coaches you had that you thought were particularly helpful?". He looked at me with a sort of blank stare and said he couldn't really think of anyone.

So yeah, some people definitely have the gift.

[Kyle Reese]

Part of our qualification was at 50 yards. The only way to be accurate for head shots at 50 yards is by hand cocking the pistol. Consequently, I learned at the shoot schools to thumb cock the DA/SA handguns as I draw them

That's a quote. I asked to clarify if his quals included 50 yards head shots. Never got a reply.

I’d love to get the deets on this particular “qualification” or the “shoot schools” that this individual has attended.

Any current defensive pistol instructor that’s teaching people to thumb cock the hammer on a DA/SA handgun during the draw is either lazy/incompetent or doesn’t know how to run or teach the DA trigger press. Or both. Probably both.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

I’d love to get the deets on this particular “qualification” or the “shoot schools” that this individual has attended.

Any current defensive pistol instructor that’s teaching people to thumb cock the hammer on a DA/SA handgun during the draw is either lazy/incompetent or doesn’t know how to run or teach the DA trigger press. Or both. Probably both.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He claimed an extensive mil and le career. I didn't care to push any further, didn't think it was worth my time.

[HCM]

I’d love to get the deets on this particular “qualification” or the “shoot schools” that this individual has attended.

Any current defensive pistol instructor that’s teaching people to thumb cock the hammer on a DA/SA handgun during the draw is either lazy/incompetent or doesn’t know how to run or teach the DA trigger press. Or both. Probably both.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you but didn’t Jeff Cooper at one time call DEA guns crunch and tickers an advocate shooting the first DA round into the dirt to get to the good trigger pull?

[Leroy Suggs]

crunchentickers:cool:

[Tensaw]

I agree with you but didn’t Jeff Cooper at one time call DEA guns crunch and tickers an advocate shooting the first DA round into the dirt to get to the good trigger pull?

Yeah, he did - something like that. Although I always read that as somewhere between tongue-in-cheek or some level of sarcasm - but I could be wrong.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Yeah, he did - something like that. Although I always read that as somewhere between tongue-in-cheek or some level of sarcasm - but I could be wrong.

I have on good authority he didn't really teach that but more of a disdain for the DA/SA. He believed that proper placement of the trigger finger for the double action yielded an incorrect placement for the single action follow ups. I don't know that he's entirely wrong as it's probably not ideal but there's no free lunch either way.

[DDTSGM]

I have on good authority he didn't really teach that but more of a disdain for the DA/SA. He believed that proper placement of the trigger finger for the double action yielded an incorrect placement for the single action follow ups. I don't know that he's entirely wrong as it's probably not ideal but there's no free lunch either way.

So, did Cooper ever really try to master the DA/SA pistol? A whole lot of average police shooters seemed able to overcome the problem of DA to SA transition over the decade or so that they were THE police pistol.

Aside from the fact I thought he was a racist, I've always thought that he suffered from confirmation bias.

He did several things that advanced the state of pistolcraft, that is undeniable.

Doesn't mean he is infallible.

[HCM]

Yeah, he did - something like that. Although I always read that as somewhere between tongue-in-cheek or some level of sarcasm - but I could be wrong.

It may well be but it does seem Cooper was never much of a fan of double action anything.

[HCM]

So, did Cooper ever really try to master the DA/SA pistol? A whole lot of average police shooters seemed able to overcome the problem of DA to SA transition over the decade or so that they were THE police pistol.

Aside from the fact I thought he was a racist, I've always thought that he suffered from confirmation bias.

He did several things that advanced the state of pistolcraft, that is undeniable.

Doesn't mean he is infallible.

Cooper started as a rifle shooter and allegedly carried a colt SAA as a personal side arm during World War II.

Chuck Pressburg (Roland of Roland special fame) Is a very accomplished pistol shooter. He has an excellent video called the flinches which addresses recoil anticipation issues. In the video Chuck mentions that persons such as himself with anticipation issues tend to Have difficultly with DA triggers. The context was in reference to the Beretta 92 but I think it would apply equally to double action revolvers.

Somewhat off-topic but I was also given to understand Cooper was cross eyed dominant which explains some of his other shooting preferences.

[Totem Polar]

The issue is talent. Someone that is naturally talented at something, even though they still have to put in a ton of reps to get to the level of Johnson and Jordan, doesn’t really understand the challenges faced by someone without that talent. “Just pull the trigger gooderer” from a shooting instructor, for example. Someone that has overcome a lack of talent is able to say “oh, I see what you’re doing there, you’re doing x minutiae when you should be doing y”.


I can guarantee that your theory is valid in music. Absolutely.

[Paul D]

I think I'm a good teacher because:

1) What I'm teaching, I've done 10,000 times.

2) For those 10,000 times I always ask myself honestly if I did it well and if not, what can I do to correct it.

3) For those 10,000 times, someone/somehow is "watching" me to see if I do a shitty job: my staff, a colleague, a rival, the patient's family, etc.

4) To teach someone the first time, it is easy because I've done it to myself 10,000 times.

I bet you if those Delta/SEALs/USPSA GM trainers had some more of #3, you would probably have less bad teachers.

[JHC]

Yeah, he did - something like that. Although I always read that as somewhere between tongue-in-cheek or some level of sarcasm - but I could be wrong.

+1 he definitely did. Read in G&A myself in real time. But in the context and his style I think you are correct it was tongue in cheek to make his point that these (S&W early gen DA/SA semis IIRC) were godawful to him. He was so much fun :D I exchanged letters with him briefly about nothing I can exactly recall. I fear I've lost the actual note, haven't come across it in decades but I sensed he would be happy to engage anyone for any amount of time in the exchange of ideas. A fellow who hung out there in AZ a bit in the earlier IPSC days said he had an informal match once where he buzzed about before anyone showed up to be sure his steel was calibrated to be very difficult to tip over with 9mm but react better to the heavier .45 slugs. Just for fun.

Heck just not that many years ago I shot a steel match at Creekside Range in north GA near Cartersville that was a roaring good time and some of its poppers were like that. May have been for shotguns but used in a pistol stage. It was a cool failure to stop thing where I dumped most of a G17 mag into it and only got it falling when I moved the hits up into the high part of the popper. That was an early stage and it got me into a mindset of shooting like crazy at their poppers not knowing where that would repeat. Used a lot of ammo that day. Good times. But I digress.

[mmc45414]

You mean the beards, hair, and tattoos?
I am just a schumk, but seems to me the modified grooming standards are only at the top tiers, and people just embrace/emulate the forbidden fruit. Even me, after spending decades in customer facing software jobs, let myself get shaggy when I went to work for my wife at her print shop. She eventually pointed out that I was still representing the company, and I eventually acknowledged that when I let my beard grow I do not look like an Operator, I look like a homeless guy.

I think there is some correlation to the way people take to the G19 like it is religion. It is what the top tier guys carry, even though they have to go through nonstandard procurement, or even buy it themselves, so it has to be that good. It is good (the size sure is Goldilocks...), but it is not the only, and I think lots of people make their decisions based on what the snake eaters say, rather than shooting. Then the snake eaters switch (maybe sponsored), what then?


So, there's no "best" gun, regardless of what SEAL's and Green Berets say.
Gads, I used to try and craft well-reasoned responses when people would ask me what the best gun is. Now I usually respond with something like "That is like asking me what the best car is, what is the best car?" One guy that asked me that is someone I only see once or twice a year, and we talk guns most every time I see him. Because of covid I haven't seen him in a few years, but I can be damn sure he still hasn't bought a gun, because he is still looking for the best one.


Heck just not that many years ago I shot a steel match at Creekside Range in north GA near Cartersville that was a roaring good time and some of its poppers were like that. May have been for shotguns but used in a pistol stage. It was a cool failure to stop thing where I dumped most of a G17 mag into it and only got it falling when I moved the hits up into the high part of the popper.
Recently did that at a three gun just for fun team event. They randomly assigned partners, and on one pistol stage they had a reluctant popper set so that they told you it would be hard to knock down. Two teammates would typically shoot all of the targets on their side and finish so both of you might have to shoot at the big popper at the same time to end the stage. Lots of fun, lots of ammo!

[littlejerry]

+1 he definitely did. Read in G&A myself in real time. But in the context and his style I think you are correct it was tongue in cheek to make his point that these (S&W early gen DA/SA semis IIRC) were godawful to him. He was so much fun :D I exchanged letters with him briefly about nothing I can exactly recall. I fear I've lost the actual note, haven't come across it in decades but I sensed he would be happy to engage anyone for any amount of time in the exchange of ideas. A fellow who hung out there in AZ a bit in the earlier IPSC days said he had an informal match once where he buzzed about before anyone showed up to be sure his steel was calibrated to be very difficult to tip over with 9mm but react better to the heavier .45 slugs. Just for fun.

Heck just not that many years ago I shot a steel match at Creekside Range in north GA near Cartersville that was a roaring good time and some of its poppers were like that. May have been for shotguns but used in a pistol stage. It was a cool failure to stop thing where I dumped most of a G17 mag into it and only got it falling when I moved the hits up into the high part of the popper. That was an early stage and it got me into a mindset of shooting like crazy at their poppers not knowing where that would repeat. Used a lot of ammo that day. Good times. But I digress.

I miss the matches at Creekside.

[High Cross]

On another note, the way the SEALS teach to reholster, by covering the striker/hammer area and extending the trigger finger to its max range of motion (they call keeping it long) was the way my late friend Mika Sodermann taught me in 2004. I always wondered the origin as this I'd only the second group I have seen teaching this. I have used it well for 17 years.

[MK11]

For what it's worth, they were teaching thumb over hammer when I took a class at Sig Academy in the early 00's when Bank Miller, formerly head of training at the DEA, ran it. I'm sure it goes back a ways.

Didn't stop one student from reholstering her still-cocked P229, which Miller fortunately saw and resolved without incident.

[DDTSGM]

Cooper started as a rifle shooter and allegedly carried a colt SAA as a personal side arm during World War II.

Chuck Pressburg (Roland of Roland special fame) Is a very accomplished pistol shooter. He has an excellent video called the flinches which addresses recoil anticipation issues. In the video Chuck mentions that persons such as himself with anticipation issues tend to Have difficultly with DA triggers. The context was in reference to the Beretta 92 but I think it would apply equally to double action revolvers.

Somewhat off-topic but I was also given to understand Cooper was cross eyed dominant which explains some of his other shooting preferences.

I had also heard he was cross-dominant. I'm currently reading through The Modern Technique of the Pistol for the first time to trace the evolution of the modern technique as was suggested by another member. I find it laborious even though Cooper (as editor) and Morrison are good writers. Why? Because there is nothing new, the contents are shopworn. That, in and off itself is testimony as to the influence that Cooper had on the art and science of pistolcraft.

I would put forth that in my experience teaching DA revolver to the masses, grip/finger strength was more of an issue than anticipation, once you get them past staging the trigger.

Back then we probably inaccurately called the DA pull a gross motor movement and a SA press a fine motor movement.

[JHC]

I miss the matches at Creekside.

Am toying with a new thread to share stories of Creekside matches. Creative bunch

[tlong17]

Here you can learn 3 times as much in 1/3rd the time.



https://youtu.be/bIHFPPIqL6w

[willie]

Cooper selected the Colt Peacemaker for military service on the advice of Elmer Keith whom he later criticized on various grounds. Cooper was born at least 100 years ago. His generation grew up in an era with viewpoints that would not pass today's litmus tests on gay/lesbian or sex or gender or race politics. I used to think that progress had been made in these areas, but sometimes I think most of us are merely more careful about what we say or don't say.

I can't bear watching Y Tube videos so I don't. The reference to special forces persons reminded me of a friend whose son had been an Army special forces guy. The dude recommended a Hi Point pistol to his father. I worked worked with a retired Army ranger who knew much about the weapons he trained on but zero about any others. Of course, I don't say such is typical, but it does pop into my pea brain from time to time.

About point shooting. Once I had an old man instructor teach me how to shoot using the FBI crouch and point method. I hit the ground every time I shot at it. He was deadly accurate with it. He could also hit tin cans in the air with a sling shot and hit skeet birds when hip shooting. He had ability that most of us do not.

[Rex G]

Well, OK, by the 10-minute mark, of Part 1, they convinced me that a GP100 is the best gun in the world, for my hands. ;) Yeah, this is a bit of confirmation bias, because my favorite handgun, in the world, assuming the original OEM factory grip configuration, is already a GP100, but, let’s keep in mind that I have been searching for a better mousetrap, since the early Nineties. An S&W K- or L-Frame is as good, but I must install non-factory grips.

What the SEALs said was so very different about SIG and Glock, for them, is not different, for me. Both “drive” the same, in my hands, when I hold them. The different grip angles make no difference. I got away from SIG, in 2015, for the lower bore axis of the G17, retiring my longest-serving duty pistol, a P229R .40, to transition to a G17, as soon as my chief 9mm to be an alternative duty cartridge. (The arthritis, in my right thumb, hand, and wrist, had started vexing me, by age 50, in late 2011.)

I do agree with the SEALs about a too-small pistol. IIRC, Mr. Shipley specifically stated that he found the G19 to be too small. I, too, found the G19 to be too small to be driven as well as a G17. Until 2017, that simply meant that if I carried a G19, I had to accept lesser accuracy potential. I tended to carry my duty G17 during personal time, for that better accuracy, and because I noticed very little difference to no practical difference, in conceal-ability. As of October 2017, that too-short G19 grip started really vexing the arthritis in my right thumb, hand, and wrist. I mothballed my three G19 pistols, and accumulated more G17 pistols, and a G19x. In 2020, I traded-away those three G19 pistols.

Notably, I was able to get my little finger onto the grip of a G19, with the Gen4 finger grooves fitting my skinny fingers quite well. In my hands, the problem seemed to be that the “heel” of the G19’s grip did not reach the “heel bone” of my hand. This was, effectively, one less point of contact. Some consider the hand to be just one point of contact, but, I consider each of the forearm bones to be a column of support, with the radius bone supporting the thumb, and the ulna bone supporting the heel of the hand. A compact or ultra-compact pistol might be a good “get-off-me” weapon, for scraping-away a near-contact-distance attacker, but, if I have to engage at a greater distance, I fully appreciate a service/duty-sized grip.

[Pistol Pete 10]

Berets are smart they'll sick to 1911 guns.

[Mercworx]

Consultant jobs are pretty typical for former SOF guys. Besides going the mercenary/PMC route, it's the most applicable way to transition their hard and soft skills into making money post military, especially when they are having trouble transitioning. There's a bunch of money to be made there, and it's largely cyclical.....a company will pop up, go at it for a few years, they'll finally get tired/finally "let go" and go do something else, and other companies from guys who recently got out will pop up to fill the void. Same thing with the guys who fill the contracts. A segment of our training cadre is filled using mostly former SOF guys, and that's pretty much how it works. When you're looking at high drive/high ego individuals like that, going cold turkey is often very destructive and working on training contracts often gives a smoother transition until an individual can accept being a civilian and changing gears entirely.

Now, when referring to the skateboarders, are you referring to the guys from GBRS Group in these videos mentioned by the OP? Because they/one of them actually owns/runs a skateboard company, so....

Yes I was. I guess that explains it then lol. Thanks for the info.

I think what I was referring to is the BRCC, Grunt Works, Goon Squad, FOG style. But to each their own it’s probably nothing. They just all seemed to have the same aesthetic.

[Super77]

What’s going on culturally in the veteran community?

I mean stylistically, lately its always some sort of “consultant” group that all look like they are professional skateboarders rather than former military. Every other word is an expletive to the point that sometimes I lose track of the actually content they are trying to share. Or on the other hand it’s some sort of homo erotic over sexualized video that depicts veterans as drunken buffoons. Also they all seem to sell T shirts and stickers.


Edit: I looked into more of this “groups” videos.

It's gone in waves. A decade+ ago everyone was going to get out and be a blackwater contractor or something. Then they were going to be a shooting instructor. Then everyone was going to do the next wounded warrior project. Then everyone was going to start a t-shirt/sticker/coffee company. Then it was "we gotta get all these vets some dogs". Right now it seems to be youtube/instagram personality and for that you have to have a certain look.

I take these guys' opinions with a huge grain of salt, mespecially when it comes to shootin g pistols. Your average SEAL and GB would be B or maybe A class shooters in USPSA and have probably not fired a pistol in anger. I would listen to a squared away LEO way before these guys, especially for civilian self defense type stuff.

[Wake27]

It's gone in waves. A decade+ ago everyone was going to get out and be a blackwater contractor or something. Then they were going to be a shooting instructor. Then everyone was going to do the next wounded warrior project. Then everyone was going to start a t-shirt/sticker/coffee company. Then it was "we gotta get all these vets some dogs". Right now it seems to be youtube/instagram personality and for that you have to have a certain look.

I take these guys' opinions with a huge grain of salt, mespecially when it comes to shootin g pistols. Your average SEAL and GB would be B or maybe A class shooters in USPSA and have probably not fired a pistol in anger. I would listen to a squared away LEO way before these guys, especially for civilian self defense type stuff.

CIF/CRF guys, which I’m pretty sure Mike was, shot pistol a lot.


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[fatdog]

Every time one of these former .mil instructors trying to build a monetized internet following is running around the range with a battle belt, DOH or thigh holsters, dump pouches, etc. etc. I have a hard time listening to the rest of what they are saying because I know they simply don't get my personal context at all. If they did, they would not be running with all that stuff and every draw would be from concealment, clearing a garment.

I even have a hard time believing most of them run around all day long, 16+ hours a day with the guns they are advocating for strapped in place unless they are uniformed duty LE.

Probably the reason that people like Tom Given, Mas, Claude Werner and others have an outsized influence on my thinking. Even when it comes to universal subjects like grip, sights, and trigger control.

[HCM]

Every time one of these former .mil instructors trying to build a monetized internet following is running around the range with a battle belt, DOH or thigh holsters, dump pouches, etc. etc. I have a hard time listening to the rest of what they are saying because I know they simply don't get my personal context at all. If they did, they would not be running with all that stuff and every draw would be from concealment, clearing a garment.

I even have a hard time believing most of them run around all day long, 16+ hours a day with the guns they are advocating for strapped in place unless they are uniformed duty LE.

Probably the reason that people like Tom Given, Mas, Claude Werner and others have an outsized influence on my thinking. Even when it comes to universal subjects like grip, sights, and trigger control.

In fairness, Mike Glover and others from the .MIL who have worked in low visibility or actual covert ops in denied areas - Yes they did in fact actually carry Glock 19 and 17 size pistols 16+ hours a day in true concealment. They were also operating in high threat environments and carrying those guns and mad gear etc. because it was what they were doing for a living.

Worth noting that I was critical of Mr. Glover earlier in the thread but he is certainly no stranger to concealed carry. As I recall his earlier videos regarding transitioning from Glocks to the SIG 320 Involved the 15 round Glock 19 sized compacts.

Regarding battle belts. One of the advantages to a battle built in the tactical or LE Context is you can throw it on over rain gear, cold-weather gear, etc. in the LE world I’ve worked with some agents who literally throw a battle belt and body armor on over a shirt and tie Because after the target location is secure they have to transition to conducting an interview in a suit.

While that is something of a niche use, the idea of one of the original Brokos style belt with the padded rubberized interior as a grab and go solution for the house is not too far fetched. You can grab one thing quickly clip it around your waist and have a gun extra mags etc and most important in that context a flashlight that is not attached to the gun all in one package. It’s very fast to both doff and Don. It will work over a bathrobe, pajamas, or even if you are naked. For the latter I would definitely stick to the original padded rubberized style versus the new cool guy belts with the Velcro inside. Could get a little scratchy.

[Wake27]

In fairness, Mike Glover and others from the .MIL who have worked in low visibility or actual covert ops in denied areas - Yes they did in fact actually carry Glock 19 and 17 size pistols 16+ hours a day in true concealment. They were also operating in high threat environments and carrying those guns and mad gear etc. because it was what they were doing for a living.

Worth noting that I was critical of Mr. Glover earlier in the thread but he is certainly no stranger to concealed carry. As I recall his earlier videos regarding transitioning from Glocks to the SIG 320 Involved the 15 round Glock 19 sized compacts.

Regarding battle belts. One of the advantages to a battle built in the tactical or LE Context is you can throw it on over rain gear, cold-weather gear, etc. in the LE world I’ve worked with some agents who literally throw a battle belt and body armor on over a shirt and tie Because after the target location is secure they have to transition to conducting an interview in a suit.

While that is something of a niche use, the idea of one of the original Brokos style belt with the padded rubberized interior as a grab and go solution for the house is not too far fetched. You can grab one thing quickly clip it around your waist and have a gun extra mags etc and most important in that context a flashlight that is not attached to the gun all in one package. It’s very fast to both doff and Don. It will work over a bathrobe, pajamas, or even if you are naked. For the latter I would definitely stick to the original padded rubberized style versus the new cool guy belts with the Velcro inside. Could get a little scratchy.

Depending on their career, some of these guys do have a lot of experience in low vis. Probably more than many expect.

My Crye MRB inner/Ronin outer belt can be thrown on in a rush pretty easily. I wouldn’t be able to thread the inner belt through loops obviously but it’ll stay in place since it’s snug and work pretty well. Holster, pistol and rifle mags, ouch for a handheld light, and TQ plus IFAK. Legit everything you could want besides armor and ear/eye pro.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hallnh727]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtC3dCAlX-M&t=54s

Video definitely has a paid advertisement feel to it, especially when this video was released 3 weeks ago.

[Patrick Taylor]

Rally cars and beard oils are expensive these days. I watch the videos same as everyone but careful about what I consider serious.

[JHC]

In fairness, Mike Glover and others from the .MIL who have worked in low visibility or actual covert ops in denied areas - Yes they did in fact actually carry Glock 19 and 17 size pistols 16+ hours a day in true concealment. They were also operating in high threat environments and carrying those guns and mad gear etc. because it was what they were doing for a living.

Worth noting that I was critical of Mr. Glover earlier in the thread but he is certainly no stranger to concealed carry. As I recall his earlier videos regarding transitioning from Glocks to the SIG 320 Involved the 15 round Glock 19 sized compacts.

Regarding battle belts. One of the advantages to a battle built in the tactical or LE Context is you can throw it on over rain gear, cold-weather gear, etc. in the LE world I’ve worked with some agents who literally throw a battle belt and body armor on over a shirt and tie Because after the target location is secure they have to transition to conducting an interview in a suit.

While that is something of a niche use, the idea of one of the original Brokos style belt with the padded rubberized interior as a grab and go solution for the house is not too far fetched. You can grab one thing quickly clip it around your waist and have a gun extra mags etc and most important in that context a flashlight that is not attached to the gun all in one package. It’s very fast to both doff and Don. It will work over a bathrobe, pajamas, or even if you are naked. For the latter I would definitely stick to the original padded rubberized style versus the new cool guy belts with the Velcro inside. Could get a little scratchy.

+1 Mike Pannone and Kyle Defoor have put out tons of concealed carry material with EDC context. FWIW Kevin B has said that Pannone's concealed carry class he took may be the single best class he has ever taken and that's a lot of classes from a lot of big names.

[Mark D]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtC3dCAlX-M&t=54s

Video definitely has a paid advertisement feel to it, especially when this video was released 3 weeks ago.

I have a ton of respect for DJ after watching his interview with Shawn Ryan. But I'm not sure why he pixelated his face in this video - there's plenty of other video out there with his face clearly visible. Other than that, his EDC seems remarkably "normal", with the possible exception of the non-metallic blade for NPE.




Here you can learn 3 times as much in 1/3rd the time.


https://youtu.be/bIHFPPIqL6w

Thanks for this video. I watched it, and several other's in the same series from EL. Ernest is such an articulate, knowledgeable, instructor.




Every time one of these former .mil instructors trying to build a monetized internet following is running around the range with a battle belt, DOH or thigh holsters, dump pouches, etc. etc. I have a hard time listening to the rest of what they are saying because I know they simply don't get my personal context at all. If they did, they would not be running with all that stuff and every draw would be from concealment, clearing a garment.

Like you, I also have a tough time relating when the dudes are wearing battle belts and similar kit. That gear probably relates to their .gov and .mil clients, but it just doesn't relate to my life. That said, in each of my classes with Noner, KD4, and Bill Rapier, all of them worked from concealment and everyday gear. Bill Rapier addresses this during his interview with Mike Ritland, when he specifically describes the majority of his students as the kind of people who are not wearing fatigues and armor, about the 2 hr, 36min mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95V40_7ZIdk


ETA: I understand that battle belts and similar setups are practical for some things, including some training situations. I just don't see them as relevant to the way I carry a handgun 99.9999% of the time.

[Clusterfrack]

And, Mr_White shows that you don't have to be a deathstalker to be an excellent defensive handgun instructor.

[MVS]

And, Mr_White shows that you don't have to be a deathstalker to be an excellent defensive handgun instructor.

I have been to dozens AND dozens of classes. Medical, Rifle, Pistol, CQB, FOF, Knife, etc, with LE and former LE, SOF guys, regular guys, you name it. Gabe White puts out one of the best run classes in the business.

[JHC]

+1 Mike Pannone and Kyle Defoor have put out tons of concealed carry material with EDC context. FWIW Kevin B has said that Pannone's concealed carry class he took may be the single best class he has ever taken and that's a lot of classes from a lot of big names.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CXrmPkeAJDt/?utm_medium=copy_link

[MVS]

+1 Mike Pannone and Kyle Defoor have put out tons of concealed carry material with EDC context. FWIW Kevin B has said that Pannone's concealed carry class he took may be the single best class he has ever taken and that's a lot of classes from a lot of big names.

I have not taken his concealed carry class but I have taken his Advanced handgun class and his carbine class. I thought Advanced Handgun was good, but I thought the Carbine class was superior to most.