Size/strength doesn't matter, and other lies you were told.

[45dotACP]

There are a lot of martial arts out there that preach the notion of "Technique is more important than size/strength", even up to my favorite martial art, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

But that is a lie of course.

Technique can be used to account for a difference in size or strength and IMO that is where a martial art like BJJ does demonstrate real world effectiveness at bridging the gap, but at a certain point there is too much difference. I will get rag dolled by a 275lb wrestler. He may not know much BJJ, but he can pull me to the ground and just hulk smash. There's literally a 115lb difference.


Additionally, I tend to believe that being strong and being able to gain significant muscle mass is a technique in and of itself. But that's literally why there is a weightlifting thread.

Nonetheless, I thought it would be interesting to list out some of the falsehoods and misconceptions in martial arts. Namely:

1. You can learn to defend yourself while never sparring or "going live" with intent.
2. You can rely on some ineffable "mindset" with no skill or minimal skill to win a fight.
3. Adrenaline dumps will reliably work in your favor by "slowing down time" or "Making you significantly stronger"
4. You don't need to cross train striking (if you're a grappler) or grappling (if you're a striker) because you're so good at your martial art that you can just "nullify" the other martial art.
5. You can use dirty fighting tactics (eye pokes, nut kicks, headbutts, bites etc) to reliably end a fight against a more skilled or larger/stronger fighter than you.
6. The "Hollywood neck break". I feel like I don't need to explain how that just couldn't possibly work.
7. Put your keys in between your fingers to scratch an attacker.
8. Your lack of cardio probably won't matter in a fight because it'll be short.

Feel free to add your own. I left out a lot of the "bullshido" stuff like pressure point karate and chi and all that, but feel free to add those too!

[Cheap Shot]

9. BJJ is the "gentle" art
10. Age doesn't matter

[Totem Polar]

“Nobody needs more than 10 rounds to defend themselves.”

(Hey, it’s a legit American martial art.)

But seriously, I’m a believer in the “Boyd Belt” concept: every 20lbs and decade age disparity/advantage = a belt. I’m basically a negative purple belt during open mat in my gym, as a baseline. It’s not easy being negative purple, but we play the hand we’re dealt.

:D

I’ll also add that the John Boyd/Rener Gracie concept is yet one more way that the BJJ/MMA open mat refuses to blow smoke up the practitioner’s skirts. It is the way things are.

One thing about the “dirty tactics” idea: it’s true that none of that stuff will be of any use if someone has you in a totally inferior position. That said, there’s a reason that every combat sport has its prohibited techniques, and it’s worth having all those rules saved in a file to review from time-to-time as a laundry list of things to consider for moments of neutrality during a hands-on self-defense event. JMO. Never say never.

[Clusterfrack]

I absolutely agree with Totem Polar about Boyd belts. My years in BJJ yielded 5 broken ribs, jacked shoulder and neck, and multiple smaller injuries. This made it very clear to me that I will be at a massive disadvantage in a grappling fight against younger people weighing 100+lbs more. That realization has made me focus on a broader range of skills--including tool use--to even the odds.

Here's a common misconception I'll add to the list:

Q: What do you expect to happen when you use [insert technique here]?

Wrong answer: I win!

Correct answer: Nothing. Don't have expectations. Keep fighting. Don't give up.

[Wondering Beard]

I think this is where disparity of force, as talked about by Mas, comes into play.

[HCM]

Here's a common misconception I'll add to the list:

Q: What do you expect to happen when you use [insert technique here]?

Wrong answer: I win!

Correct answer: Nothing. Don't have expectations. Keep fighting. Don't give up.

This ^^^^. Speaking of "the American martial art," I first heard this years ago from Scott Reitz of ITTS in a Vehicle Tactics class. If you,ve never trained with Uncle Scotty, he loves movie quotes almost as much as I do....


https://youtu.be/rMcmrk-DBKA

[45dotACP]

I absolutely agree with Totem Polar about Boyd belts. My years in BJJ yielded 5 broken ribs, jacked shoulder and neck, and multiple smaller injuries. This made it very clear to me that I will be at a massive disadvantage in a grappling fight against younger people weighing 100+lbs more. That realization has made me focus on a broader range of skills--including tool use--to even the odds.

Here's a common misconception I'll add to the list:

Q: What do you expect to happen when you use [insert technique here]?

Wrong answer: I win!

Correct answer: Nothing. Don't have expectations. Keep fighting. Don't give up.

The expectation is a hell of a problem.

Lots of guys don't exactly know how difficult it is to genuinely strangle someone unconscious if they don't want to concede the tap.

If you watch the recent fight between Ortega and Volk and you'll see just how much a guy can endure if he's willing to go out on his shield. In that fight you had a world class BJJ black belt with excellent strategies and execution of high percentage strangles, but Volk was having none of it and was totally unwilling to go unconscious. His defense was on point to survive an onslaught like that, but it was more than that. Ortega would have had to render him unconscious. And against another skilled practitioner, who can make just barely enough space to survive...that made all the difference, because it cast doubt in Ortega's mind as to whether he could actually win the fight. Then Volk escaped and beat the shit out of him for a decision win.

[MickAK]

Technique can be used to account for a difference in size or strength and IMO that is where a martial art like BJJ does demonstrate real world effectiveness at bridging the gap, but at a certain point there is too much difference. I will get rag dolled by a 275lb wrestler. He may not know much BJJ, but he can pull me to the ground and just hulk smash. There's literally a 115lb difference.


I think this ties in with your other thread about how leg locks don't work.

If I'm wrapped up with a giant of a human and we go down in a pile and a heel hook is presented to me, I'm absolutely taking it with everything I have and be damned to leaving his hands free. It's really difficult to get practice with just how much force a giant human can put out when they're mad and scared. I might not be able to do anything with his upper body when I get there.

Pressure points are an idea that just won't die. The last scrap I got into the guy tried to do a pressure point on my neck. I was doing my best to stop it from getting physical so we just stood there awkwardly for awhile while he played with my neck. Afterwards when he had calmed down he asked me if 'I liked that move'. The thing you were doing right before you got tossed on the ground and immobilized? No, I don't like that thing. 'I didn't do it right'. No shit dude, nobody does. That's why you don't see guys 'pressure pointing' each other in MMA.

I blame Spock, myself.

[GAP]

My favorite one:

“There are no politics here when it comes to promotions.”

[Bolt_Overide]

I'm 6' 8" and about 320 pounds. I'm not even near the solid muscle I was 15 years ago when I weighed a lot closer to 400. I boxed when I was younger, I wrestled some in high school. I am no where near competent at BJJ, my experience is limited to rolling with a few guys over in the sand box who were fairly experienced. They completely out classed me on technique, but given the size and weight difference found it to be valuable experience because of the strength difference. I can't say how many times someone tried to arm bar me, but I can only remember needing to tap to one twice. Chokes were more effective, but I quickly learned to not let my back be taken. I had one guy get behind me once and jump on my back, when he was trying to get the choke sunk in, I simply fell backwards and the impact knocked his wind out.

Don't let anyone convince you that any size difference can be overcome with technique, there is a point where it cannot. Some of us are just too big and frankly need the judicious application of lead.

[Gun Mutt]

"You'll break your hand if you punch someone in the face."

While you could break your hand, making it a blanket statement is a falsehood. Three times in my life, I've one-punch KO'd a grown man who was trying their level best to hit me and only once was my hand even sore. And all of those took place at least a decade after I'd last punched a makiwara board or what have you.

[Bolt_Overide]

I feel like Ive gotten screwed on that subject, Ive broken the bone behind my pinky finger 3 damn times.

[EPF]

I think discussing “strength doesn’t matter” as an axiom of bjj/MMA that humorously doesn’t ring true in the training room is a conversation separate from the matter of a self defense fight possibly ending in gunfire. The conversation so far has meandered back and forth between both realms.

In the ensuing discussion, we fell into the trap of downplaying the huge advantage that skill provides. Which seems to often present as an excuse not to train by the self defense oriented general public.

IMO it would be better to separate size and strength (S&S) as related to training against other trained fighters from self defense against a motivated but untrained person. For that matter, debating strength vs technique with untrained or minimally trained people is pointless because they don’t really comprehend the skill variable.

The replies seem to meander back and forth between the training and self defense arenas depending on which one supports your arguments more at the moment.

I postulate that if drawn on a graph S&S crosses the technique line at some point. IMO that point is much higher than some of the posts suggest.

A high level of technical skill overcomes a LOT of untrained size and strength. Anyone who trains in a decent sized facility sees that in action all the time. For example, to a striker with several years in and hundreds of rounds of sparring under his belt, a strike thrown by an untrained person of any size registers in slow motion like Neo in the Matrix.

Also, for now let’s leave the initiative deficit problem of self defense out of it and just focus on skill vs S&S.

Those who regularly train in MMA or one of its core component arts fall prey to Dunning-Krueger like anyone else does. In regular training we see big strong guys get a 2-3 year blue belt base of skill and quickly begin to erase the gap with those who are smaller but much more technical. So yes a mid level blue belt skill large guy can beat a high level small guy because S&S turbo charges your skill. It’s a very human mistake to extrapolate that difference to every jacked guy you see walking around.

This is where I think it helps to separate the training and fighting arenas of combat. Obviously in my example of the jacked blue belt, the graph line starts closer crosses earlier, and is more vertical. But Is that example a realistic way to judge for a street altercation?

To use the previous example, how many 275 pound high level wrestlers are there walking around? For that matter how many ~ 250# physically fit people are walking around period?

The vast majority of potential threats aren’t walking the streets with 2+ years of boxing/wrestling/bjj but I will concede there is a high percentage of strong/fit potential adversaries. That is why having a high level of skill is important IMO.

As noted previously tools are also a major factor in self defense. The right tool employed at the right time alone can overcome both S&S and skill to some extent. So what are we talking about?

For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

S&S > couch potato
Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
S&S + tool > S&S alone
Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.

[Totem Polar]

For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

S&S > couch potato
Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
S&S + tool > S&S alone
Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.

I can pretty much get behind your scribbling, per above. Tangentially, this reminds me of a favorite cool guy T-shirt by Mark Luell; laconic truth in iconic form:

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I feel like Ive gotten screwed on that subject, Ive broken the bone behind my pinky finger 3 damn times.

Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.

[45dotACP]

Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.People act like you can't move or use a broken bone.

Like nah...you can.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Cory]

I think discussing “strength doesn’t matter” as an axiom of bjj/MMA that humorously doesn’t ring true in the training room is a conversation separate from the matter of a self defense fight possibly ending in gunfire. The conversation so far has meandered back and forth between both realms.

In the ensuing discussion, we fell into the trap of downplaying the huge advantage that skill provides. Which seems to often present as an excuse not to train by the self defense oriented general public.

IMO it would be better to separate size and strength (S&S) as related to training against other trained fighters from self defense against a motivated but untrained person. For that matter, debating strength vs technique with untrained or minimally trained people is pointless because they don’t really comprehend the skill variable.

The replies seem to meander back and forth between the training and self defense arenas depending on which one supports your arguments more at the moment.

I postulate that if drawn on a graph S&S crosses the technique line at some point. IMO that point is much higher than some of the posts suggest.

A high level of technical skill overcomes a LOT of untrained size and strength. Anyone who trains in a decent sized facility sees that in action all the time. For example, to a striker with several years in and hundreds of rounds of sparring under his belt, a strike thrown by an untrained person of any size registers in slow motion like Neo in the Matrix.

Also, for now let’s leave the initiative deficit problem of self defense out of it and just focus on skill vs S&S.

Those who regularly train in MMA or one of its core component arts fall prey to Dunning-Krueger like anyone else does. In regular training we see big strong guys get a 2-3 year blue belt base of skill and quickly begin to erase the gap with those who are smaller but much more technical. So yes a mid level blue belt skill large guy can beat a high level small guy because S&S turbo charges your skill. It’s a very human mistake to extrapolate that difference to every jacked guy you see walking around.

This is where I think it helps to separate the training and fighting arenas of combat. Obviously in my example of the jacked blue belt, the graph line starts closer crosses earlier, and is more vertical. But Is that example a realistic way to judge for a street altercation?

To use the previous example, how many 275 pound high level wrestlers are there walking around? For that matter how many ~ 250# physically fit people are walking around period?

The vast majority of potential threats aren’t walking the streets with 2+ years of boxing/wrestling/bjj but I will concede there is a high percentage of strong/fit potential adversaries. That is why having a high level of skill is important IMO.

As noted previously tools are also a major factor in self defense. The right tool employed at the right time alone can overcome both S&S and skill to some extent. So what are we talking about?

For the sake of discussion I propose something roughly like:

S&S > couch potato
Skill > 75% of the S&S differences
Skill+ some S&S > 25% S&S monsters
S&S + tool > S&S alone
Skill+ tool > S&S + tool
Skill+ tool+ some S&S > most any threats

I’m not saying this dumb chart I just made up is gospel and there are gradients to each category but even if the stuff I just scribbled is way off the mark it’s in the right grid square.

I was having some trouble wrapping my head around the relationship of S&S, skill, tool work. Obviously maximizing all of them is best.

I think you're right about the fight vs training stuff. Not having skill in my corner, I keep my my confidence in check with regards to training and fights. I have seen poor results from someone who thought that their ability in training meant ability in fighting. They were wrong. And it was a hard lesson for them.

[Bolt_Overide]

Yeah I'm also dragging the average up here with three of my own. Yes, it's always been from connecting on a shot that landed wrong, and no, I don't think there was a good way of predicting it. Sometimes you just connect wrong, or at least that's happened to me.

I will say that in no instance did it even slow me down mid-fight. I just felt it break and thought "god damn it, that again?" and kept on going. So sure, maybe you will break part of your hand, but it won't necessarily have much effect on the outcome.

same thing for me, target moved and I only connected with 2 knuckles on two of em, the last one felt like a flush hit, but it broke anyway.

[BehindBlueI's]

People act like you can't move or use a broken bone.

Like nah...you can.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk


Maybe. I for sure couldn't close my last two fingers with my boxer's fracture. It didn't hurt at the time, it just physically wouldn't close the fingers.

[High Cross]

When I was first doing BJJ, the take down class felt like a high school wrestling match. It required anaerobic conditioning and strength which I had not expected. Even the professor was so powerfully built i could not move him for certain techniques. I think personally that in both shooting and martial arts fitness is the key for being sucessful

[Duces Tecum]

I think personally that in both shooting and martial arts fitness is the key for being sucessful
High Cross

Concur. It is astonishing how many fights, even those at a championship level by professional combatants (e.g., Fury-Wilder III), are decided by the last person who becomes too exhausted to remain effective. It seems that the strength necessary for fighting is less than one would think, but the endurance is (or can be) much greater.

Sidebar: That's one of the reasons I've changed my workouts to maintain what I think is the necessary strength while focusing more on improving endurance.

Ducas

[Clusterfrack]

When I was first doing BJJ, the take down class felt like a high school wrestling match. It required anaerobic conditioning and strength which I had not expected. Even the professor was so powerfully built i could not move him for certain techniques. I think personally that in both shooting and martial arts fitness is the key for being sucessful

Zombieland Rule #1...

[David S.]

Regarding Size and Strength, I keep coming back to a possibly analogous description with @Caleb's "Are Revolvers Relevant" video.


https://youtu.be/CEHtRkyTe-0

Is size and strength valuable to the untrained (not going to be trained) because you got nothing else, and then valuable again for the advanced practitioner who knows how to take advantage of those attributes? Size and strength is used in lieu of technique, which makes it a negative for the vast middle.

I don't know if this is at all true. It's just something I've been rolling (snicker) around in my mind.

[45dotACP]

Regarding Size and Strength, I keep coming back to a possibly analogous description with @Caleb's "Are Revolvers Relevant" video.


https://youtu.be/CEHtRkyTe-0

Is size and strength valuable to the untrained (not going to be trained) because you got nothing else, and then valuable again for the advanced practitioner who knows how to take advantage of those attributes? Size and strength is used in lieu of technique, which makes it a negative for the vast middle.

I don't know if this is at all true. It's just something I've been rolling (snicker) around in my mind.

I like the idea, but I think the physicality advantage shows itself much sooner than the point at which you are considered an "expert"

Case in point...Gabi Garcia.

She is what...6'2 and 235lbs (sometimes competes at 265) with a six pack. Steroids? Absolutely. She's tested positive for them (never been banned in BJJ competitions because another lies you were told is that BJJ is a "clean" sport where integrity is important to those involved)

But what about skills? Well she's a black belt with multiple titles. She's only ever been submitted once in her whole career and she has many submission victories that display an understanding of BJJ

There are few women who can compare to her on the basis of physicality alone, but she has been beaten by points or by more technical victories, but being beaten by submission didn't happen until she was competing at black belt, because the amount of skill required to significantly overcome such a physicality difference can probably only be seen at the highest levels of the art.

So maybe the physicality advantage is there earlier, and wanes later as you must compete with people who are at very high levels.

[Mister X]

Is there is a possibly a loosely defined “threshold” of adequate size that once surpassed, size differences are much less important than they are under the threshold? Essentially being big enough.

Mike Tyson and Fedor Emelianenko were both relatively small heavyweights, who often overcame substantial size differences that might be likely with lighter weight fighters should they be matched against equivalently larger opponents. Or maybe it’s just a matter of once reaching a certain size(approximately heavyweight), there are simply a lot less people of that size who are in shape and highly skilled.

[BehindBlueI's]

Is there is a possibly a loosely defined “threshold” of adequate size that once surpassed, size differences are much less important than they are under the threshold? Essentially being big enough.

Mike Tyson and Fedor Emelianenko were both relatively small heavyweights, who often overcame substantial size differences that might be likely with lighter weight fighters should they be matched against equivalently larger opponents. Or maybe it’s just a matter of once reaching a certain size(approximately heavyweight), there are simply a lot less people of that size who are in shape and highly skilled.

My decidedly non-expert musings: I'd say it's very difficult to be 'the best' in strength AND speed AND endurance simultaneously, since some corners of that triangle tug at others. I don't know there's a 'big enough' but I would suppose at some point the 'bigger' isn't helping overcome the detrimental effects of increased energy demand and more mass to move at speed.

[Totem Polar]

My decidedly non-expert musings: I'd say it's very difficult to be 'the best' in strength AND speed AND endurance simultaneously, since some corners of that triangle tug at others. I don't know there's a 'big enough' but I would suppose at some point the 'bigger' isn't helping overcome the detrimental effects of increased energy demand and more mass to move at speed.

I think that’s true. That said, I doubt that many reading this thread have hit that point of diminished returns yet.
:D

Craig was straightforward as to when he felt that he was “strong enough,” and the bar (heh, no pun intended) was pretty high.

That said, it’s true that you simply can’t do it all. But trying will make you hard to deal with, for sure.

( SouthNarc just for kicks/opinion)

[SouthNarc]

I think that’s true. That said, I doubt that many reading this thread have hit that point of diminished returns yet.
:D

Craig was straightforward as to when he felt that he was “strong enough,” and the bar (heh, no pun intended) was pretty high.

That said, it’s true that you simply can’t do it all. But trying will make you hard to deal with, for sure.

( SouthNarc just for kicks/opinion)

For me personally on diminishing returns, it was when I found my guard game had gone to shit after three days a week powerlifting for 2.5 years and a gain in weight of about 18 lbs of muscle. My numbers for triples in the lifts respectively were 245 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift at a bodyweight of 186 lbs.

I'm about 175 now and just maintain what I have which is less than what I was at when I had essentially turned myself into a strength athlete versus a combat athlete. I pulled a fairly easy triple on deadlift the other day of 425 and i'm not pushing numbers right now especially with my travel schedule.

As far as how my strength translates, no one I grapple with tosses me around or says I feel weak. That includes Alan Belcher who right now is a shredded 245 and former top ten UFC 185-er. Alan has to work technically if I'm on top to sweep or create a scramble with me, which he does fairly regularly. Alan is a black belt I'm a brown belt and Alan is twenty years younger and is 70 pounds heavier.

Recently I had John Welbourn, the founder of Crossfit football in coursework. John is 275 and was a starting offensive lineman for three different teams in the NFL and an assassin on the field. John was completely incapable of breaking my body-lock until I showed him how. Once he had a LITTLE technique he could probably get out 50% of the time. Six months of grappling and there's no way I could hold him because he's a freak athlete.

I think everyone who does the deep dive into strength will subjectively get to the point where they are satisfied with being "strong enough" if they are in tune with their body and pay attention to their performance on the mat or in the ring. At 53 and not being a professional athlete, fighter, gunslinger, whatever, I'm fairly satisfied with where I stand right now. My big thing these days is working on skill, maintaining strength, embracing the balance of frequency versus intensity, and being patient with myself on recovery and not taxing my neurological system.

[Totem Polar]

For me personally… [snip] My big thing these days is working on skill, maintaining strength, embracing the balance of frequency versus intensity, and being patient with myself on recovery and not taxing my neurological system.

Thanks a ton for the input, Craig.

[Randy Harris]

My big thing these days is working on skill, maintaining strength, embracing the balance of frequency versus intensity, and being patient with myself on recovery and not taxing my neurological system.

THAT is 100% applicable to just about everyone over 45 years old.....

[45dotACP]

For me personally on diminishing returns, it was when I found my guard game had gone to shit after three days a week powerlifting for 2.5 years and a gain in weight of about 18 lbs of muscle. My numbers for triples in the lifts respectively were 245 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift at a bodyweight of 186 lbs.

I'm about 175 now and just maintain what I have which is less than what I was at when I had essentially turned myself into a strength athlete versus a combat athlete. I pulled a fairly easy triple on deadlift the other day of 425 and i'm not pushing numbers right now especially with my travel schedule.

As far as how my strength translates, no one I grapple with tosses me around or says I feel weak. That includes Alan Belcher who right now is a shredded 245 and former top ten UFC 185-er. Alan has to work technically if I'm on top to sweep or create a scramble with me, which he does fairly regularly. Alan is a black belt I'm a brown belt and Alan is twenty years younger and is 70 pounds heavier.

Recently I had John Welbourn, the founder of Crossfit football in coursework. John is 275 and was a starting offensive lineman for three different teams in the NFL and an assassin on the field. John was completely incapable of breaking my body-lock until I showed him how. Once he had a LITTLE technique he could probably get out 50% of the time. Six months of grappling and there's no way I could hold him because he's a freak athlete.

I think everyone who does the deep dive into strength will subjectively get to the point where they are satisfied with being "strong enough" if they are in tune with their body and pay attention to their performance on the mat or in the ring. At 53 and not being a professional athlete, fighter, gunslinger, whatever, I'm fairly satisfied with where I stand right now. My big thing these days is working on skill, maintaining strength, embracing the balance of frequency versus intensity, and being patient with myself on recovery and not taxing my neurological system.

Damn, and here I was thinking I was starting to get happy with my lifts now that I've finally got past 225 on the squat and deadlift. That said, my max on a good day in my early 20's was just right at 185lbs, so I do feel happy with where I am now compared to where I was.

I have found that having more powerful legs from squatting and deadlifting has been very useful for escapes from some bad positions. Bridging with correct form is good, but it's still tiring. Bridging with good form and more power is more betterer I feel like.

It's also worth noting for me, that being stronger at squat and deadlift has DEFINITELY helped to reduce my overall likelihood of injury and nearly eliminated my back pain while I'm on my feet at work all day.

My bench press is puny, but even then, I can feel my shoulder girdle growing more resistant to injury as well, which is nice, because my shoulders were always a bit fragile and I had to deal with some shoulder injuries a while ago that were fucking miserable.

[willie]

A friend of mine had a cop chew off his ear in Columbus, Georgia. My buddy had completed military training and was waiting to ship out to Vietnam. Often I have wondered if biting is taught as a technique. My inner city experience revealed that some people will bite. My post is a serious one and not presented as gag.

[feudist]

A friend of mine had a cop chew off his ear in Columbus, Georgia. My buddy had completed military training and was waiting to ship out to Vietnam. Often I have wondered if biting is taught as a technique. My inner city experience revealed that some people will bite. My post is a serious one and not presented as gag.

I sustained a total of 9 bites across my career.
I had dozens of attempts at it during restraints. My default response became "If you bite me, I'll gouge out this eye." Said with my thumb on their eye.

[Mitch]

A friend of mine had a cop chew off his ear in Columbus, Georgia. My buddy had completed military training and was waiting to ship out to Vietnam. Often I have wondered if biting is taught as a technique. My inner city experience revealed that some people will bite. My post is a serious one and not presented as gag.

If you bite someone from a disadvantaged position and they know what they’re doing, you’ll get fucked up for pissing them off. If you’re in a good position you don’t have to resort to biting them.

[P30]

Bite placement is important. I remember reading here that a chicken killed a human by biting in a varicose vein.

PS:
pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38377-Woman-dies-in-rooster-attack (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38377-Woman-dies-in-rooster-attack)

[Clusterfrack]

If you bite someone from a disadvantaged position and they know what they’re doing, you’ll get fucked up for pissing them off. If you’re in a good position you don’t have to resort to biting them.

On the other hand, let’s consider a female who is never going to be in a good position while being assaulted by a much larger male. I would encourage her to use all her tools to fight back, break contact, and escape. For example, bite his hand to free one of hers so she can deploy her knife.

The last thing she should be worried about is pissing her attacker off.

[Mercworx]

I’m certainly no expert (wrestled in HS and that’s basically it) or even novice but I heard a very compelling argument on a BJJ podcast awhile back. The hosts argued that it might be more beneficial for the average person to be strong and fit rather than learn a martial art. Their logic was the average person is untrained anyways and it might be more useful to be much stronger and conditioned than the person trying to assault you rather than have minimal BJJ training.



I was morbidly obese at the time so it struck a cord.

[45dotACP]

I’m certainly no expert (wrestled in HS and that’s basically it) or even novice but I heard a very compelling argument on a BJJ podcast awhile back. The hosts argued that it might be more beneficial for the average person to be strong and fit rather than learn a martial art. Their logic was the average person is untrained anyways and it might be more useful to be much stronger and conditioned than the person trying to assault you rather than have minimal BJJ training.



I was morbidly obese at the time so it struck a cord.That's an interesting thought. But then I wonder if the average person isn't more likely to be someone who is very strong...rather than someone who is trained to fight.

I expect that there are more dudes who can squat 315 than there are dudes who are BJJ black belts.

That's pretty strong. But I'd bet that it'd be easier to learn how to fight than it would to be significantly stronger than that person.

Granted it would be even better to be a BJJ black belt with a 405 squat, a 500 deadlift and a 315 bench who can also do the splits, throw a headkick and run a mile in 6 minutes.

But of two equally sized or similarly sized people, the one who's a blue belt in BJJ or the high school wrestler can probably whoop ass on the one who doesn't train anything but weightlifting.

As for biting...I mean I should train with thought that someone might bite me or try to poke my eye. But that's just gonna make some grapplers turn the violence WAY up.

Lots of BJJ guys like BJJ because you can hold back and still succeed. It only needs to be as violent as it needs to be to end. For most untrained folks, that's not really that violent.

But if someone tries to blind them then that means they read the terms of service and agreed to what happens next. Slams? Yes. Wrist/fingerlocks? Yep. Twisting leglocks? Sure enough. Kimuras cranked at the speed of sound? Sold.

Sure, maybe they'll eventually end it with a strangle and disengage...but if someone pokes their eye they might make said person long for the blessing of unconsciousness.

As a primary, secondary or even tertiary strategy there is no goddamn way am I gonna take a mouthful of someone who may be using IV drugs or having unprotected sex. Fuck that noise entirely.

If I'm losing a fight and I expect I might die, then maybe I'll think about it.

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

If we are talking conditioning/strength vs skill, porque no los dos? All things being equal, I’d prefer to be a MUCH better grappler, but I have to deal with age and injury. I do what I can, and part of that doing what I can is staying in shape. And learning tools. I like the message on Mark Luell’s cool T-shirt graphic enough that I’m on my second one. This is the way, IMHO.

[Bolt_Overide]

Is there is a possibly a loosely defined “threshold” of adequate size that once surpassed, size differences are much less important than they are under the threshold? Essentially being big enough.

Mike Tyson and Fedor Emelianenko were both relatively small heavyweights, who often overcame substantial size differences that might be likely with lighter weight fighters should they be matched against equivalently larger opponents. Or maybe it’s just a matter of once reaching a certain size(approximately heavyweight), there are simply a lot less people of that size who are in shape and highly skilled.

I don't know if that threshold can be quantified, as there are too many variables. Training, pain tolerance, strength, speed, and probably most importantly heart and affinity for violence. There are plenty of street fighters out there that have zero training but tons of experience and mean.

[OlongJohnson]

Discussions of strength here are interesting. Size doesn't necessarily correlate. Some guys just get stronger and don't get bigger.

When I was a 19 year old skinny punk, I was 6'4" and 195 pounds. When I lifted, I stayed at the same weight and just got stronger and stronger. Ended up with a 485 lb squat. Nobody looked at me and saw anything but a skinny dork.

[P30]

The hosts argued that it might be more beneficial for the average person to be strong and fit rather than learn a martial art.
Both is helpful. If one is lazy/does not have much time left, then the person should take advantage of the Pareto principle (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Pareto_principle). 20% effort are good enough for 80% of the maximum return (after that you have diminishing returns). So a bit fitness (e.g. 1 h jogging/rope jumping and 0.5 h stretching/planks/push-ups per week) and learning a few efficient MA techniques. Then you take advantage twice.

I think, mindset is also very important. As far as I remember, the founder of this forum liked the little book "Principles of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper.

PS:
But if you have very little time, then just watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGImAxOnzv0). There you get it all in 1.5 minutes. :cool:
<hickok45voice>Did you believe this?</hickok45voice>

[03RN]

For me personally on diminishing returns, it was when I found my guard game had gone to shit after three days a week powerlifting for 2.5 years and a gain in weight of about 18 lbs of muscle. My numbers for triples in the lifts respectively were 245 bench, 405 squat, 495 deadlift at a bodyweight of 186 lbs.

I'm about 175 now and just maintain what I have which is less than what I was at when I had essentially turned myself into a strength athlete versus a combat athlete. I pulled a fairly easy triple on deadlift the other day of 425 and i'm not pushing numbers right now especially with my travel schedule.

As far as how my strength translates, no one I grapple with tosses me around or says I feel weak. That includes Alan Belcher who right now is a shredded 245 and former top ten UFC 185-er. Alan has to work technically if I'm on top to sweep or create a scramble with me, which he does fairly regularly. Alan is a black belt I'm a brown belt and Alan is twenty years younger and is 70 pounds heavier.

Recently I had John Welbourn, the founder of Crossfit football in coursework. John is 275 and was a starting offensive lineman for three different teams in the NFL and an assassin on the field. John was completely incapable of breaking my body-lock until I showed him how. Once he had a LITTLE technique he could probably get out 50% of the time. Six months of grappling and there's no way I could hold him because he's a freak athlete.

I think everyone who does the deep dive into strength will subjectively get to the point where they are satisfied with being "strong enough" if they are in tune with their body and pay attention to their performance on the mat or in the ring. At 53 and not being a professional athlete, fighter, gunslinger, whatever, I'm fairly satisfied with where I stand right now. My big thing these days is working on skill, maintaining strength, embracing the balance of frequency versus intensity, and being patient with myself on recovery and not taxing my neurological system.

When you're really good strength is less important. If you're mediocre then it helps level the field against better grapplers.

There's no place here to grapple so I'll just lift more.

I was training for my grey belt in mcmap as a 19yo lance corporal and I was paired with a staff sergeant who was bigger than I am now. I could not get the arm bar as he could curl me all day long. So I bit his hand and sank in the arm.

[03RN]

On the other hand, let’s consider a female who is never going to be in a good position while being assaulted by a much larger male. I would encourage her to use all her tools to fight back, break contact, and escape. For example, bite his hand to free one of hers so she can deploy her knife.

The last thing she should be worried about is pissing her attacker off.

Is it in bad taste to say the female who did this didn't win?
91399

I've got 3 good scars from biters. Feed the bite. IE jam whatever their biting down their throat until they release.

[03RN]

Strength is important but so is endurance.

This week I ran 6.5miles in armor, 8miles pushing a 40lbs kid in a stroller and deadlifted 405x10, 455x4, and 495 for a single during my back work.

[Kirk]

I really think the answer is to be strong and a good grappler. I'm neither, but closer to "strong" than good grappler at the moment. I had an interesting experience this week. I did my first no-gi session in a decade (I trained 3ish years a decade ago), and I'm a good deal stronger now. I rolled with a high-level purple belt of the same size (I'm 240) and a black belt (he was probably 180) and got submitted about 8 times in 10 minutes lol. I came away thinking that my minimal strength was pretty irrelevant. I can bench 340 and deadlift a little over 550 but the 180lb black belt submitted me every which way possible.

My goal is essentially to get back to ~blue belt level and keep getting stronger. I figure that at some point, my size/strength/grappling skill will hit a level where I can at least hang with a 180lb black belt for 1 minute or so without getting submitted :D.

I think Paul Sharp is the perfect example of a guy to mimic. No, we probably won't be as strong as him or as skilled as him, but he has combined size/strength and skill extremely effectively.

[TheNewbie]

Strength is important but so is endurance.

This week I ran 6.5miles in armor, 8miles pushing a 40lbs kid in a stroller and deadlifted 405x10, 455x4, and 495 for a single during my back work.


You may be one the most impressive athletes I know of. It's one thing if you are paid to train like that and your life/job revolve around it, but your life/job does not. There is only one guy I have met that could match what you do. Maybe it's arrogant, but I am pretty impressed with my own fitness activities and life activities. That said, I don't come close to what you are doing on my best day.


I grappled with a guy who was of similar skill level, but bigger while I was stronger. We were about equal. A little shrimp of a guy with incredible cardio and skill level wiped the floor with me.

[03RN]

You may be one the most impressive athletes I know of. It's one thing if you are paid to train like that and your life/job revolve around it, but your life/job does not. There is only one guy I have met that could match what you do. Maybe it's arrogant, but I am pretty impressed with my own fitness activities and life activities. That said, I don't come close to what you are doing on my best day.


I grappled with a guy who was of similar skill level, but bigger while I was stronger. We were about equal. A little shrimp of a guy with incredible cardio and skill level wiped the floor with me.

Thank you

I think some really good grapplers dismiss strength because they are really good. For the rest of us strength can add up. Same with experience.

8 mile run flex
91414

[TheNewbie]

Thank you

I think some really good grapplers dismiss strength because they are really good. For the rest of us strength can add up. Same with experience.

8 mile run flex
91414


Strength also matters in mental toughness and confidence.

The mental and physical endurance it takes to achieve lifting numbers that are at the max end of what your body can do build toughness and resolve. Especially when you talk about hi rep and heavy sets.


Obviously BJJ takes toughness as well.

[03RN]

Strength also matters in mental toughness and confidence.

The mental and physical endurance it takes to achieve lifting numbers that are at the max end of what your body can do build toughness and resolve. Especially when you talk about hi rep and heavy sets.


Obviously BJJ takes toughness as well.

That's one of the reasons why I like those longer runs with weight. I'm pretty slow but I kinda have to shut part of my brain off. My wife and I will throw out math problems every once in a while so we stay sharp.

Go clear 3 more buildings after going all day loaded down with gear.

Already hauled 300 lobster traps but need to haul 200 more before we can head in.

Gotta go restrain another patient and running out of IM zyprexa because of the first 10 restraints.

Sometimes days are just long and physical. I've always prided myself on staying positive. Positivity is contagious. For me it helps to know there is nothing that can stop my body but my own mind.

[Mercworx]

Strength is important but so is endurance.

This week I ran 6.5miles in armor, 8miles pushing a 40lbs kid in a stroller and deadlifted 405x10, 455x4, and 495 for a single during my back work.

Very good point.


I had a friend in college who had been a lifelong wrestler and had done boxing, Muay Thai and BJJ for years. He was working towards becoming a professional fighter. Think he was a middle weight. I asked him what his priorities were and he told me his coach told him it was all about “legs, lungs and heart”. Kind of stayed with me over the years. I interpreted “legs” as muscular endurance or the ability to pop back up/conduct explosive movements. Lungs is obvious.

As a former big time fatty I remember putting up decent numbers with my lifts, which would be contrasted by being out of breath going up a flight of stairs. I realized someone could probably kill me without much difficulty because I could hardly move. Throw me to the ground and I wasn’t getting up anytime quick.

[Bolt_Overide]

I really need to start doing that again, though after 132 jumps I'm not sure how much of it my knees and hip would take. The shitty part about being on the back half is everything is broke to one extent or another and then your realize that your younger self would tell you to stop being a fucking bitch about it.

Time to see if I can still such it up I suppose.

[QuickStrike]

Can't agree fully with #5. If there is a good opening for a headbutt or something I will take it. It likely won't end the fight by itself, but can give me more time or an opening for something else.

Being a small dude, I try incorporate powerlifting to even the strength disparity, and work a lot on footwork and head movement to overcome the reach. Striking is definitely more forgiving than grappling against a bigger person imo.