Rifle Caliber for Hunting the West

[NPV]

So I may be making a trip out west to MT in 2022-2023 for an elk trip and who knows may just stay out there and escape CT (not kidding).

So needless to say I’ve got some time but am starting to research a rifle setup for hunting in that portion of the country. At this point for the money I’ve pretty much settle on a Seekins Havak PH2 as it seems to offer the best bang for the buck and a Vortex Razor Viper HST or Razor LHT (budget dependent).

The question is which caliber should I be looking at? 7mm RM, 6.5 PRC, 28 Nosler seem to be at the top of the heap for this type of hunting but figured I’d solicit some advice here. I do have access to a 1k range here and am set up to hand load as well. Looking around it seems like components for 28 Nosler are astronomical for not a lot more performance compared to the 7mm RM. And that performance gap may even be narrowed if hand loading.

This won’t be a PRC rifle or anything but I would like to shoot it a few times a year without having to worry about burning up a barrel.

[GJM]

I don't hear good things about 6.5 PRC on elk. .300 Win Mag is a known, successful elk cartridge, and what I have my Seekins Element in. Recoil isn't bad despite the rifle being lightweight. I have shot a bunch of elk with .270 class magnums, with great results too.

[Nephrology]

I left CT for good in 2012. Now live, appropriately, out West (not MT). Still go back to see family but otherwise in every way strongly recommend.

[MK11]

I'm sort of interested in what you decide on a rifle but extremely interested to hear where you have access to a 1,000 yard range in CT.

[NPV]

I'm sort of interested in what you decide on a rifle but extremely interested to hear where you have access to a 1,000 yard range in CT.

Not in CT but just over the border into MA, Granby Bow & Gun club.

[ccmdfd]

I don't hear good things about 6.5 PRC on elk.

Interesting. It seems to be one of the most popular of the 6.5's.

[Suvorov]

30-06?

Probably the single most popular hunting round in the Western US and has proven itself more than capable on elk. I realize it doesn’t have the legs of the .300WM or some of the newer cartridges but do you really plan on taking shots at distances where those rounds ballistics matter?

[UNM1136]

Mark Larue likes the 6.5 Grendel. I like it more than .243, or 25-06 or similar. My dad has a bunch of elk with a run of the mill .270, I like the 30-06 and .308, because I have an -06 and don't mind .308. 6.5 Creedmoore is my next full on rifle purchase, and plenty for elk. After much homework I bought my daughter a ballistically similar .260 Remingon for elk. Would have gone 7-08 if I had to. I practice a lot, and before taking my kids, have them practice hard too.

Elk are tough, but tend to get overthought. A good round in a good caliber in the boiler room. Magnums are OK, but far from necessary. Find a good gun (IMHO 6.5mm or larger) and get good with it. The bigger/faster/more powerful rounds are nice, but the tradeoffs are recoil, muzzle blast, cost, etc.

pat

[GJM]

Some thoughts on bullet selection:

https://fieldethos.com/match-bullets-suck-for-hunting/

On caliber, based on having harvested pushing two dozen elk, guided and on my own, there is a difference between what caliber works in ideal conditions, and what caliber works in bad conditions, like a tough angle, a wounded animal, or heavy snow when your range finder doesn't work.

[wcj]

Nothing replaces a competent, ethical rifleman. Use premium bullets, I have never had a nosler partition fail, I've seen good results with some bonded and solid barnes, I just trust partitions.

Forty years of elk tags and as many elk are behind my thoughts, also helped an outfitter friend over half of those years and saw another hundred or so taken. 300 mag in your choice of headstamps seems most popular. Stay with bullets on the heavier range for your caliber. Magnum loads and better bullets help when you are not perfect, an efficient humane shot is the goal.

I started with a 7mm Rem mag, took several with it. Switched to a 340 Weatherby I built on a Rem 700 action, never looked back. Thirty plus years of one shot elk, none have traveled over 25 yards after shot. Just finished processing this years for the freezer.

Good luck.

[LJP]

My buddy recently bought a Christensen Arms Ridgeline chambered in 300 PRC just for a future western hunt. Having seen what it did to a hog and deer this season, I have little doubt as to its terminal performance. If I ever get to go, I’d probably rely on my .30-06, although my 6.5 Creedmoor would probably get the job done just as well. By the way, I’m in CT too. I don’t claim it as home, but here I sit for the foreseeable future.

[Trigger]

.280 Remington. Or .280 Ackley.

[NPV]

I left CT for good in 2012. Now live, appropriately, out West (not MT). Still go back to see family but otherwise in every way strongly recommend.
I’ll probably spend a month or two out there next spring, thinking of checking out Utah, South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. Thank you pandemic for remote working.

Back on topic, seems as though any of the posted cartridges would be just fine. I’m dropping 6.5 PRC from the conversation mostly because I don’t want to be associated with the 6.5 mafia :p. But seriously I’m leaning towards the 7mm, though the 30 cals (300 WM and 300 PRC) will probably get another look as well. I’m sure 30-06 or 308 would be just fine but considering I am going to be investing a good chunk of change into this I don’t want to limit myself when the reality is I don’t see a reason to not go with a magnum cartridge.

The recoil and blast don’t concern me with the magnums as I’ve shot 60 rounds through a 300 WSM in a sitting. I’m more concerned with ammo cost and availability and the 7mm RM always seems fairly available.

[WDR]

30-06?

Probably the single most popular hunting round in the Western US and has proven itself more than capable on elk. I realize it doesn’t have the legs of the .300WM or some of the newer cartridges but do you really plan on taking shots at distances where those rounds ballistics matter?

I've used .30-06 for quite a while. It's certainly adequate for elk... somewhere I have a 180gr Accubond that I took from under the off-side hide of a good sized cow I shot at 425 yards. If you know your dope, it's plenty of gun. The only reason I stretched that shot out, was because I had a huge boulder that was the perfect angle to set my pack down on, and get into a semi-standing, sorta-prone, lean over the rock, perfect benchrest steady position. I had plenty of time to rest and get ready for the shot, as the herd was not going anywhere, which was a good thing, as I was out of cover, and moving closer would have sent them over the ridge. I had a good idea of the range, dead calm winds, and my pick of several perfectly broadside cows that were not moving. Two shots, two hits to the boiler room. Second shot was redundant, but she was still standing when I came down out of recoil, so I sent another.

I normally keep shots under 300 if at all possible. I know my dope out to 500 by heart, and have made some decent longer shots (that cow, another cow at 300, a nice mule deer at 350, etc)... I really want to get as close as I possibly can before I take a shot. I've held my fire on bad angles, and let good animals walk because I didn't feel right about the shot. I've also spooked game, trying to move to a better, closer position. IMHO, under 300, .30-06 is plenty. If you know your dope, I think it can be stretched to 500. Somewhere between 300 yards and infinity, it turns into "shooting" more than "hunting", IMHO.

That said, hard to draw limited entry tags, longer shots, wind, bad weather, and wounded animals do justify harder hitting guns somewhat. I wouldn't want to be trying to make follow up shots from the rear of a nice bull I wounded, with something like a 6.5 CM... even with really good bullets. But, I also have a buddy that has shot a small pile of bulls with a .270 using basic cup and core old school bullets. He used to shoot a .338WM with 250gr Partitions, so take that as you will. I've really been thinking of a 6.5 CM or a 7mm-08 for a bit lighter short action gun, because hiking around at 10,000 feet will make you start counting ounces in your hands or in your pack. I think with good modern monolithic or bonded bullets, the smaller calibers are probably adequate, if you can shoot well, and don't take crappy shots. Plenty of guys buy fancy magnums, but then never shoot them, because they are not fun, and expensive to shoot. Those guys miss a lot of shots they might have made with a gun they can actually shoot well. In the right hands, a magnum is certainly going to give you an edge. If I was bothering with a magnum, I'd not look at anything smaller than the 7mm Rem Mag, caliber wise.

Biggest takeaways: Elk are not bulletproof, make good shots, know your personal limits with your equipment, practice a lot, caliber matters a lot less than putting them in the right spot, use proper bullets for whatever caliber you use, and finally... CARDIO! Packing elk out is work.

[pangloss]

I've never hunted elk, but I love the .270 Win and heavy caliber bullets. That combo is overkill for the deer around here, but if I were going to hunt elk, I would find it hard to resist a Winchester model 70 in 6.8 Western.

.300 Win mag seems like the best answer to me. If I ever get a shot at an elk it will be only by great effort or expense. Picking an optimal rifle cartridge is wiser than chosing an adequate one.

Sent from my moto g power (2021) using Tapatalk

[xtrtsqrt11]

Being in the PNW, I have hunted Elk on many occasions.

I have seen .308, 30-06, 7mm mag and 45-70 personally used. Many Co-workers swear by their 300 win mags. The 30s and 7mms are real shot placement specific in their performance. The 45-70 took a chest cavity shot and was literally DRT.

The last Elk I shot was with a 7mm mag. The round just zipped through the neck (back to front) and he just ran. I was trying for a spine shot as it was running in a straight line perfectly away/no angles involved from only 40 yards away. I didn't want to shoot him in the butt. Just barely missed the spine. It took awhile but we tracked him down and got my tag filled.

I decided I wanted a bigger cross section, first thought was 45-70, but decided I wanted a little more reach if I needed it. ETA: Long shots are rare in my area.

I now have my 35 Whelen which is just a necked up 30-06 case to 35 caliber. 200 grain average bullet weight and has a ballistic arc similar to .308. I haven't been able to actually try it out, but looking forward to the opportunity-recently lost my Dad, he was the driving force for us...
It's a bit off the radar but ammo was available easy online till the foolishness happened. Luckily I found a store (GB) doing a clearance on Federal Fusion at $19 a box, just had to buy 11 boxes. That will arguably last my lifetime since I don't plink with hunting ammo.

Moral of the story, I'm thinking there may be something to the old timers saying a big bullet will put them down best...

[oregon45]

For bolt action rifles, I think any cartridge driving a bullet 6mm or larger, 100 grains or heavier, at 2700fps or faster will work just fine for almost any kind of Western hunting.

[NPV]

I appreciate all of the feedback thus far, just to help frame the conversation a bit here are the calibers offered for the rifle I am looking to buy. 270, 7mm-08, and 30-06 aren’t an option. Going to a LA is a .3lb weight penalty (7.2lb overall).

I do have a Marlin 1895 which would be a blast to hunt with but I don’t know if getting within in that rounds effective range is a possibility where we’re going.

81048

[wcj]

Any of the long action calibers and premium bullets. Depends on where you hunt, vast majority of mine have been 250-350 yards, this year was a hayfield heard at 373. The extra energy makes a difference past 250. The weight difference on the rifle is insignificant.

[OlongJohnson]

81048

I buy into the idea of common ammo, hence I would go with the standards: .300WM or 7RM. (Not sure the .338 is necessary for anything that doesn't require travel through/over/around Canada to get to. And even then probably not necessary.) If something happens to your reloaded ammo, you should be able to buy some that will get the job done anywhere that hunting ammo is sold, at least in normal times. And you're better off with them in non-normal times for the same reason, just moreso.

I like that they have the 1:8.5 twist on the 7RM. Most of those are the traditional 1:10, which may not be enough to shoot the zoomier 175-gr-ish bullets like NAB and the like.

If I ever move out west and decide my .308 isn't enough, I'll probably have a 1:8 barrel made for a Tikka in 7RM.

[Paul D]

I would recommend getting the .300 WM. It will kill almost everything in North America. To make up for the weight penalty, I would opt out of getting a Vortex which always 50% heavier than similar scopes. I would suggest looking at the Swarovski Z3 line or Leupold VX3-HD or VX5-HD line. A Vortex will weigh about 23 oz while the others will weigh about 14-16 oz.

[NPV]

Any of the long action calibers and premium bullets. Depends on where you hunt, vast majority of mine have been 250-350 yards, this year was a hayfield heard at 373. The extra energy makes a difference past 250. The weight difference on the rifle is insignificant.
I agree on the weight difference just wanted to give some background.

I would recommend getting the .300 WM. It will kill almost everything in North America. To make up for the weight penalty, I would opt out of getting a Vortex which always 50% heavier than similar scopes. I would suggest looking at the Swarovski Z3 line or Leupold VX3-HD or VX5-HD line. A Vortex will weigh about 23 oz while the others will weigh about 14-16 oz.
That is a good point and I will look into those. I have to admit though I get a sizable discount on Vortex and they have always treated me very well so I’m a bit of a brand loyalist. But either way I’ll take a look at your suggestions.

[JHC]

Some thoughts on bullet selection:

https://fieldethos.com/match-bullets-suck-for-hunting/

On caliber, based on having harvested pushing two dozen elk, guided and on my own, there is a difference between what caliber works in ideal conditions, and what caliber works in bad conditions, like a tough angle, a wounded animal, or heavy snow when your range finder doesn't work.

I'll probably never hunt an elk but if I did . . . I see bowhunters get close up shots in the woods. Does anyone rifle hunt like that? If I was to do so, I'd like woods hunting elk with a levergun. Can't recall any reports of hunters doing such however, I mean in recent years.

[rm06]

I live out west and hunt elk, mostly with a bow nowadays tho. I own a .300 WSM, it is sub 7 lbs with scope and recoil is manageable with a can, otherwise it is not a fun rifle to shoot. I have been down a few caliber rabbit holes and if I had it to do over, I would choose .30-06 every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Ammo availability, proven track record, large selection of bullet weights (if you're not a handloader), etc.

[GJM]

I'll probably never hunt an elk but if I did . . . I see bowhunters get close up shots in the woods. Does anyone rifle hunt like that? If I was to do so, I'd like woods hunting elk with a levergun. Can't recall any reports of hunters doing such however, I mean in recent years.

The reason the elk get so close archery hunting is they come in to a call. Archery seasons are earlier when the elk are rutting hard. The elk can be bugling in rifle season but they don't come in like earlier in the fall. 300-400 yards is a very common distance for elk hunting in the mountains.

[UNM1136]

I now have my 35 Whelen which is just a necked up 30-06 case to 35 caliber. 200 grain average bullet weight and has a ballistic arc similar to .308. I haven't been able to actually try it out, but looking forward to the opportunity-recently lost my Dad, he was the driving force for us...
It's a bit off the radar but ammo was available easy online till the foolishness happened. Luckily I found a store (GB) doing a clearance on Federal Fusion at $19 a box, just had to buy 11 boxes. That will arguably last my lifetime since I don't plink with hunting ammo.

Moral of the story, I'm thinking there may be something to the old timers saying a big bullet will put them down best...

I have a family heirloom 30-06, and when I shoot out the barrel I am going to go 35 Whelen AI. Just because.

I have a rather romantic attachment to the concept of that caliber. Dunno why, but I want....

pat

[NPV]

28 Nosler has been dropped from consideration, brass is 3x the cost of any other magnum caliber in the conversation and it’s a bit of a snowflake.

Gonna do a little more digging on 300 PRC tonight but really I think it’s gonna be a 300 WM or 7mm RM. The listed BC on the Berger 180gr .284 VLD is pretty insane and surpasses the 30 cal offerings.

[OlongJohnson]

Gonna do a little more digging on 300 PRC tonight but really I think it’s gonna be a 300 WM or 7mm RM. The listed BC on the Berger 180gr .284 VLD is pretty insane and surpasses the 30 cal offerings.

Pay really close attention to the twist requirements for the bullets you want to use. That Berger is probably designed for the modern, long-range custom rifle crowd in cases like the 28 Nosler, .284 Win, etc. Make sure a 7RM barrel is twisted fast enough. Off the top of my head, the 175gr NABLR is recommended for 1:8. An even pointier 180 may require more. They could be marginal with the 1:8.5 on the list you posted earlier.

[Duelist]

28 Nosler has been dropped from consideration, brass is 3x the cost of any other magnum caliber in the conversation and it’s a bit of a snowflake.

Gonna do a little more digging on 300 PRC tonight but really I think it’s gonna be a 300 WM or 7mm RM. The listed BC on the Berger 180gr .284 VLD is pretty insane and surpasses the 30 cal offerings.

If it was me, from those options, the 7mm RM would be the final choice. Lots of good things you can do with one, less of a chore to practice with than the .300, loaded ammunition, brass, and component bullets are (usually) as available as anything.

[oregon45]

I'll probably never hunt an elk but if I did . . . I see bowhunters get close up shots in the woods. Does anyone rifle hunt like that? If I was to do so, I'd like woods hunting elk with a levergun. Can't recall any reports of hunters doing such however, I mean in recent years.

That's still a very common method of hunting Elk in the Coast Range here in Oregon, and in parts of Southwest Oregon where cover is very thick.

For context, in my experience Elk hunting on public land in Western Oregon, the largest Elk I saw taken (an old 6x6) was shot at 25 yards with a 210gr Nosler Partition out of a .338 Win Mag. The bullet did not exit, and the Elk went about 40 yards downhill through a thick oak grove before collapsing. It took three of us about an hour to find the Elk because his antlers blended perfectly with the trunks of the stunted oaks, and he was wedged into a small depression that obscured his body. It was raining and we saw very little of a blood trail. That experience led me to choose a Winchester (Miroku) 1886 in 45-70 with 405gr hard cast bullets for my hunting in that area, on the theory that a big cast bullet will exit and provide a better blood trail for tracking. I have not yet had a chance to test that theory.

[TWR]

I keep thinking the old saying of bullets matter more than head stamps...

[GJM]

There is no right answer for everyone. Elk hunting is about chances to make a successful shot on an animal. You may be hunting any elk, any bull, or a special bull. There are things that you don't control, like how many days you can hunt, the weather, and what animals present. There are things that you do control, like your ability to shoot from field positions and being able to get into a stable position quickly, the accuracy of your rifle, the type bullet you launch, and the velocity of that bullet.

On a guided hunt, that costs $5-10k with a limited number of days in the field, focusing on a trophy animal, I don't want limitations in my ability, rifle, scope and bullet that limit my ability to connect on a chance on a good animal. Others may like the idea of using a particular rifle, caliber or bullet and be willing to accept limitations those choices impose.

[NPV]

Focus on the things you can control but don’t waste time on the things you can’t.

GJM is precisely right IMO, quoted myself from another thread but it’s something I try to focus on.

So yeah I may be micro-analyzing a bit but I’m not going to “wing it” on an expensive trip.

[xtrtsqrt11]

That's still a very common method of hunting Elk in the Coast Range here in Oregon, and in parts of Southwest Oregon where cover is very thick.

For context, in my experience Elk hunting on public land in Western Oregon, the largest Elk I saw taken (an old 6x6) was shot at 25 yards with a 210gr Nosler Partition out of a .338 Win Mag. The bullet did not exit, and the Elk went about 40 yards downhill through a thick oak grove before collapsing. It took three of us about an hour to find the Elk because his antlers blended perfectly with the trunks of the stunted oaks, and he was wedged into a small depression that obscured his body. It was raining and we saw very little of a blood trail. That experience led me to choose a Winchester (Miroku) 1886 in 45-70 with 405gr hard cast bullets for my hunting in that area, on the theory that a big cast bullet will exit and provide a better blood trail for tracking. I have not yet had a chance to test that theory.

Bow hunting is also very popular in the Willamette Valley of Oregon. Yes, very thick underbrush.

That 45-70 will serve you well. The one shot I have seen with a 45-70 (my Dad's) was a chest cavity shot. No exit with the 405 grain cheap Remington ammo. The type that is safe in old Trap Door Springfields since it's so mild. The Elk dropped like a rock, was about 50 yards away running right in front of him (right to left) nice and perpendicular to my Dad. La Grande area specifically (is where we typically went). As we went to quarter the Elk, the entire chest cavity was nothing but pulp. No organs, no nothing as is normally seen. We all said "wow"-having collectively seen dozens of Elk and Deer gutted.

ETA: what impressed me the most was that to get that kind of stop on an Elk usually required a shoulder shot. Then you lose all that meat. A chest cavity shot does the job, but they usually don't stop running for quite a while.

[NETim]

My bro's WY elk this year. 300 Win Mag and a 180 Nosler Accubond. He has literally killed a metric ton of NA and African game with that setup. It is a wicked combo.

81068

[GJM]

My bro's WY elk this year. 300 Win Mag and a 180 Nosler Accubond. He has literally killed a metric ton of NA and African game with that setup. It is a wicked combo.

81068

a .300 WM with a quality bullet has probably killed more big elk than any other combination in the mountain west over the last 20-30 years....

[Duelist]

There is no right answer for everyone. Elk hunting is about chances to make a successful shot on an animal. You may be hunting any elk, any bull, or a special bull. There are things that you don't control, like how many days you can hunt, the weather, and what animals present. There are things that you do control, like your ability to shoot from field positions and being able to get into a stable position quickly, the accuracy of your rifle, the type bullet you launch, and the velocity of that bullet.

On a guided hunt, that costs $5-10k with a limited number of days in the field, focusing on a trophy animal, I don't want limitations in my ability, rifle, scope and bullet that limit my ability to connect on a chance on a good animal. Others may like the idea of using a particular rifle, caliber or bullet and be willing to accept limitations those choices impose.


GJM is precisely right IMO, quoted myself from another thread but it’s something I try to focus on.

So yeah I may be micro-analyzing a bit but I’m not going to “wing it” on an expensive trip.

In addition to what George said above, hunting in the West can be a lot of different things. Hunting Coues whitetail in Arizona mountains is very different to hunting sheep or bison, or elk in a juniper flat vs an alpine forest at high elevation, or cows and spikes vs. mature bulls.

I normally have plenty of time to examine a Coues through high powered glass at distance, make a decision to make an attempt, move into range, set up a shot, and make the kill. Coues are tiny, light built deer and you can kill them with nearly any bullet from nearly any rifle, within appropriate distances. I like to be ready for 400 yards, but try to be closer than 300 before I shoot. This year, the only buck I saw popped up out of a draw right next to where I was glassing, required a “quick” sprint across rocky steep spurs and draws, and then I had to look at him for a minute to figure out if he was actually wearing antlers or if the light was reflecting off the branches of the bush behind him. That part about taking a solid shooting position in a hurry? Didn’t make that decision fast enough, nor was I ready for a fast offhand shot at less than 70 yards when he turned his head and gave me a look at his antlers.

I wasn’t ready for how the animal presented and wasn’t ready to make the shot happen within the parameters of what was available. I’m sure any practiced still-Hunter would have killed that deer easily, but I wasn’t ready and you don’t usually get do-overs. The actual opportunity was a complete gimme chip shot (though a very brief window of time), and I feel a little bit stupid for not being ready to take it. That kind of thing isn’t how we normally get deer in these mountains and I haven’t needed to make that kind of shot in 20 years.

But the other stuff - the rifle (model 70 featherweight, .270 Win), the bullet, its velocity, its capacity and applicability to the situation were all fine. I’ve killed deer with it before, with perfectly satisfactory performance.

I would never shoot an elk with the same bullet, though. It’s too light and fragile. If/when I hunt elk again, the .270 will have a heavier, stouter bullet loaded up. And if I have any questions about what bullet to use, I’ll probably have a question or two for George and Lost River, who have killed more mature bulls than I’ll probably ever see.

[David S.]

Vortex does have three scopes in their Razor hunting line (https://vortexoptics.com/riflescopes/razor-hd-lht.html).

3-15x40 is 19oz
3-15x50 is 20.5oz
4.5-22x50 is 22oz.

That's right in line with Leupold's VX-5HD offerings.

[ccmdfd]

Some thoughts on bullet selection:

https://fieldethos.com/match-bullets-suck-for-hunting/

.

Good read with a lot of good points.


As they say, things happen in 3’s.



Just saw a YouTube video last night where the guy was talking about the current obsession with sub-moa accuracy. According to him, back in Jack O’Conner’s days a 3 MOA rifle was considered more than adequate for hunting North American game, and should still be considered adequate. But everyone wants long distance sub moa stuff.


Then my cousin, who is 1000X the hunter I am (multiple safari trips, including his honeymoon, hunted everything on this continent other than big brown bears) and I were discussing the current long range trend. He said he didn’t want to shoot something more than 250 yards away. The thrill of the hunt is more about getting close to the game, watching their behavior, etc. It’s not about shooting.



FWIW.

[WDR]

I'll probably never hunt an elk but if I did . . . I see bowhunters get close up shots in the woods. Does anyone rifle hunt like that? If I was to do so, I'd like woods hunting elk with a levergun. Can't recall any reports of hunters doing such however, I mean in recent years.

As GJM explained, bowhunters are almost always hunting right in the hottest part of the rut, when the bulls get dumb and very aggressive about anything that sounds like another bull coming after their harem of cows. They respond to calls, and can be maneuvered on, or called in. Most of the rifle hunts, besides certain limited entry units, occur after the rut, and the bulls stop being so dumb and generally are no longer bugling or coming in to calls. It's a hell of a lot harder to get close to a bull elk in late October, in thick dark timber, where they like to bed down when the pressure is on. Most of the bugling I've heard during the rifle hunt here, is other hunters.

You can still hunt timber, but its extremely difficult to be quiet enough to get close in the tangled deadfall they seem to universally like to hide in. This fall, the single bull I saw, was while still hunting the bottom of a canyon. East-West running canyon, with steep, thick dark timber and deadfall on the south side, and open sage on the north side, and a few aspens/quakies lining the bottom, with a nice cow/game trail that could be quietly walked while looking uphill through the timber. My first indication that there was a bull there, was an antler smacking the trunk or branch of a tree. I had about a one second glimpse of antlers and a big rump at about 40 yards as he went over a small rise and then ghosted me. I didn't even have enough time for a snap shot, so the rifle I was holding (3-9x scoped .30-06) didn't even matter.

I've had some success still hunting like that, but while the shots like that might be well managed with something like a .45-70 levergun with irons or a dot, the next minute you may be standing on top of a ridge, looking at a herd on the far side of the canyon, 300-500 yards away, feeding through the sagebrush. .45-70 can still work at that range, but you'd better have a range finder, and know your dope. Or maybe I need to mount an offset RMR on my ole '06 Fudd gun. :cool:

[okie john]

Nothing replaces a competent, ethical rifleman.
This is the most important point on this entire thread. Don’t assume that you’ll get a long shot. Assume that you’ll get a difficult shot and train for that.

Whether a shot is difficult depends on the conditions, and the West offers a range of them. Washington and Oregon have dripping jungles west of the Cascades, tall timber, classic alpine benches and meadows in the mountains as you move east, and vast arid rolling foothills beyond that. The other states you mention have everything but the jungle, and some are practically desert in some places. Wind is a factor in all of them except the brush, so learn to shoot in it. Lots of folks can recite drops backwards and forwards but the ability to read wind separates the men from the boys.

Find a place to hunt and study the conditions it offers before you pick your rifle, scope, and cartridge. If you plan to live here, then buy gear that will handle most of the species that you hunt (mule deer, pronghorns, mountain goats, whitetail deer, sheep, moose, etc.) under the conditions where you might hunt them. To get a feel for their relative sizes, check out the full-body mounts in any Cabelas. I've been known to get up on the mezzanine there with an unmounted rifle scope to check out the animals from different angles so I understand how they look in a scope. You can also observe a lot of these animals in zoos, though the tolerance for rifle-scope shenanigans will be lower there. Don't let your first encounter with an elk happen when you're trying to decide whether to shoot it.

Some of your shots will be offhand, fast (3-5 seconds), and within 100 yards. Genuine long shots are possible but far less common than the hunting shows want you to think. Hunting shows like long shots because they’re inherently dramatic, they give the host and his buddies more to talk about, they help the producers sell stuff, and the film crews are less likely to spook the game. I'd focus on getting good hits out to 3-400 yards within 10-12 seconds of seeing the animal, then cut that time to 5-6 seconds before I pushed the range past 400 yards.

Lots of guys who don’t have film crews following them around still slip through dark timber looking for deer and elk, and I've stumbled into moose there as well. Shots are usually well within 100 yards. I've used lever guns and revolvers but I prefer a short, light, well-balanced bolt action with a scope in case I pop out of the timber and get a longer shot. This kind of hunting is physically exhausting and requires boots with great ankle support because timber that holds game never seems to grow on flat ground.

Spot-and-stalk is more common. The rifle for that doesn’t really matter as long as it’s accurate. That said, I’d rather have a $200 rifle and $2,000 binoculars than the opposite. Leica, Swarovski, and Zeiss are great, but this market is growing and excellent choices appear every day. 7-8x works well in timber and has plenty of reach. 10x is better for picking apart distant hillsides but can be harder to hold steady. Any binocular, especially if it’s over 10x, benefits from a tripod for extended use. Look for objective lenses (the front ones) of 40mm or greater diameter. Smaller glasses are lighter and easier to carry but don’t perform as well at dawn and dusk.

I’d buy good glasses before your scouting trip this summer. Practice getting them onto distant objects quickly. Most people spot an object, raise the binoculars to their eyes, then try to find the object, which takes forever. Instead, spot the object, then move the glasses to your line of sight. The object will appear centered in your field of view as soon as you raise the binoculars. This is easy to learn with a few minutes of practice, and it helps you build the speed required to get a good hit within the time parameters I mentioned above.

You'll also want a good rangefinder. It's very difficult to estimate range in unfamiliar terrain, so its main function will be to help you plan for possible shots. Check the distance to distinctive rocks, stumps, or other objects on the hillside in front of you. Decide which ones are at or near your maximum range. Now you know that you can engage anything closer without moving, and that you’ll have to move to engage anything farther. Once you see an animal, you can confirm the range if necessary. This also helps you reduce your speed-to-hit times.

For a rifle scope, get something with a low end of not more than 4-5x in case you get a close, fast shot. I like simple reticles that I can see easily and use well in a hurry. Illuminated reticles are nice. You also need a weather-resistant scope and Butler Creek (or equivalent) scope caps—they keep your scope dry enough that you can actually use it.

Before your hunt, train in the positions that Jeff Cooper describes in “The Art of the Rifle”, especially offhand. It’s more common than you think. Also practice the post rest for mid-range shots.

Learn to cycle the bolt quickly without getting out of position. You should be able to fire again within a few seconds or as soon as the crosshairs return to the target. Most people think of this as four movements: up, back, forward, and down. Instead, make it two: up-and-back, forward-and-down.

Once you’re getting good 400-yard groups, check your zero with a bipod, tripod, brush pile, backpack, or other improvised rest—it may vary from your bench zero. Then focus on getting into a solid position behind your preferred rest and learning to shoot from improvised positions that include natural objects like brush piles, stumps, or rocks. These positions don’t have to be comfortable since you won’t be in them for long, but they do have to be solid. Put all of this together and you'll be able to get multiple hits in quick succession.

A late friend of mine who hunted all over the world had a no-nonsense set of criteria for an elk rifle:
• Rifle with scope and sling must be under 8 pounds
• At least .30 caliber
• No porting, brakes, or other superfluous hardware
• Non-glare stainless steel (I'd hit the barrel of that Seekins with some flat black Krylon to kill the shine) in a good pillar bedded synthetic stock
• 22” barrels—except in the magnums that need a 24” barrel for velocity
• Simple trigger group, bolt and safety designs
• Shoot flat enough that zeroing 2” high at 100 ensures that holding high hair at 300 yds will put it in the vitals
• Iron back up sights
• Scope with an objective no larger than 40mms held with field detachable mounts (scabbard friendly)
• Shoot premium bullets under 1.5” throughout the entire temperature range that can be encountered

Finally, start doing cardio today. The highest point in Connecticut is ~2,400 feet above sea level, which is lower than where most Western hunting starts. The difference in your performance between low elevations and 5,000’ ASL can be a slap in the face if you’re not expecting it. Lungs the size of grocery sacks are the goal.

None of this stuff is sexy, but it’s all more important than whatever rifle, scope, and cartridge you end up buying.


Okie John

[wcj]

A second to Okie John's post.
My experience is SW Montana, lots of sage brush mountainsides, timber on the tops. The valley floors start at 5,000 feet. Totally different experience than western Washington or Oregon. By rifle season lots of the elk are down on the hay meadows on private ground.
I have a self imposed limit of 400 yards, longer requires a lot of justification and ninety percent of the time means get closer. Please forget your ninja sniper fantasies, save that for steel gongs, elk deserve better.
I have never felt I needed more than an aging 3-9 Swarovski for glass. It stays on 3, there is time to dial it up if you take a distance shot, never had time to dial it down. Dialed up for a long shot is probably 6X, not sure I've ever used it higher.
If you are on a budget and never hunted the open west, spend the money on the best binoculars and rangefinder (or better a combo) you can afford. Swarovski and Leica are my preferences. Spend more on the glass than the gun if you have to choose. I have watched my outfitters clients want to start shooting at 800+ yards, honestly thinking they were less than 400, had to give them the rangefinder for them to believe me. Laser rangefinders were a game changer, and BS eliminator.
My instinctive shooting is sitting wrapped up in a sling, I shoot and then realize I'm sitting, usually don't even remember doing it. Find what works for you. This years elk was taken off of a tripod, a first for me, but the terrain made it easier than sitting. Having a spotter for long shots is also valuable, they will see things in binoculars you will miss with a scope and recoil.
Personal observations from watching a lot, take it for what it's worth. Every elk is a accomplishment.

[pyrotechnic]

OP maybe I missed it in the other posts, but do you have a another bolt gun that you can practice with?

If not, you're going to be way ahead getting that rifle chambered in .308 or 6.5 creedmore and shooting the piss out of it. The magnum cartridges are cool and extend the range at which a bullet can do work, but being proficient at those ranges is another matter.

Out to 400 yds a 308 or 6.5 creed with a good bullet will be plenty lethal and you can afford to shoot 2x as much as you can with the magnums.

[NPV]

Thank you all for the excellent info posted in the last few days. To answer a few questions, yes I have a bolt gun to practice with now in .308 no less so I plan on doing so over the next few months quite a bit. Who knows maybe I’ll even grab a Seekins in 308, at this point I’ve realized I don’t feel like doing load development, tweaking, etc. I just want a turn key option with factory ammo.

I’m not buying anything until get more information from the person I am planning on going with (they’ve done it before), I seem to recall they killed their elk at about 300y with a 300 Weatherby. I am in overall good physical shape doing 45 minutes of cardio 3 days a week, 30 minutes of HIIT 2 times a week, and 1.5 miles of 1/4 body weight suitcase carries 2 times a week along with core and kettlebell work. I am upping my cardio progressively over the winter and will probably add in heavy rucks come spring to help build ankle stability.

This is all a new world to me so I’m very appreciative of all of the information provided above. The rifle is probably the least important part of the whole equation but I like to do my research haha.

[DocGKR]

In general heavy bonded bullets (ex. TBBC, Accubond), or lighter monolithic copper loads (ex. TSX, GMX) for elk.

Close shots--yeah, .45-70 will work fine.

For mid range, popular cartridges like .30-06 or .308, maybe even .270 are hard to beat--as they generally offer plentiful ammo which can typically be found anywhere. The more prevalent and inexpensive the ammo, the more likely folks are to practice, which leads to increased accuracy and confidence--which is ultimately way more important that specific caliber, load, or rifle.

For longer ranges, then a flatter shooting round like .300WM offers a greater margin of error; if you want flat but are willing to go lighter, then something like 6.5C/.260Rem is an option.

There are a lot of smaller niche cartridges that also work, for example 7mm-08, 7mm Mag, .338 Mag, but that might be more expensive to practice with and harder to find ammo for.

[NPV]

Was at the local Cabelas today to grab some Christmas presents. I decided to see what was on the shelf for rifle ammo to my surprise there was plenty of .308, some 6.5 Creedmoor, very little 7mm REM Mag, some 6.8 Western, no.270, no .300 WM, and no .30-06. I was somewhat surprised but interesting nonetheless.

[DocGKR]

Calibers with large government contracts generally have more availability, as factories are set-up for running large amounts of ammo.

[NPV]

Calibers with large government contracts generally have more availability, as factories are set-up for running large amounts of ammo.

That makes sense, is .300 WM still in use to some extent by the USG? That’s why I thought for sure there’d be at least some on the shelves.

Side note I was pretty well set on the Seekins rifle but I saw a Sig Cross today and it looked like a pretty lightweight and compelling package.

[ccmdfd]

In general heavy bonded bullets (ex. TBBC, Accubond), or monolithic copper loads (ex. TSX, GMX) for elk.



Do you know if there is any truth to some of the things I have read on various internet forums ( and we all know how accurate the internet is) that the TSX and GMX'S will fail to expand unless they hit bone or something else with massive resistance?

Supposedly if all they do is go straight through the skin and chest cavity and back out, there's no expansion, they leave a pencil sized hole.

Thanks

[GJM]

Do you know if there is any truth to some of the things I have read on various internet forums ( and we all know how accurate the internet is) that the TSX and GMX'S will fail to expand unless they hit bone or something else with massive resistance?

Supposedly if all they do is go straight through the skin and chest cavity and back out, there's no expansion, they leave a pencil sized hole.

Thanks

I have shot two mule deer, four elk, and a moose with the Barnes Vortx 180 grain load in .300 Win Mag with excellent performance.

[ccmdfd]

I have shot two mule deer, four elk, and a moose with the Barnes Vortx 180 grain load in .300 Win Mag with excellent performance.

Cool.

Did they work with lung only shots?- didn't have to take out the shoulders?

Thanks

[GJM]

Cool.

Did they work with lung only shots?- didn't have to take out the shoulders?

Thanks

Too many animals over too many years to remember the details, but the Barnes bullets perform very well in the field. My PH in Zimbabwe used to carry them in his .458 Lott over solids, for everything but elephant, because they performed so well on dangerous game.

[pyrotechnic]

In general the solids and bonded bullets will be less impressive at distance and lower impact velocities
Their ability to hold together will work against them a bit as they will not upset as much, and punch a smaller hole through the animal.

A standard cup and core bullet might be a bit more impressive under those conditions. But if you're shooting some magnum and blast an animal at short range that cup and core bullet might come apart now and not get through a shoulder or something on a sub-optimal shot.

Every projectile has a velocity window in which it it designed to function as advertised. In general a bonded or all copper projectile is going to be at the higher end of the spectrum with cup and core bullets being at the lower end.

ETA: if it helps any, I've only ever shot one elk in my life. It was with a 95gr vmax out of a 6.5 creed at 485 yds. I was out coyote hunting and came across a herd. I picked out the smallest one (a calf around the size of a large mule deer)due to the projectile I had and penetration concerns. It was very tasty.

[OlongJohnson]

Do you know if there is any truth to some of the things I have read on various internet forums ( and we all know how accurate the internet is) that the TSX and GMX'S will fail to expand unless they hit bone or something else with massive resistance?

Supposedly if all they do is go straight through the skin and chest cavity and back out, there's no expansion, they leave a pencil sized hole.

Thanks

You need to drive them fast enough at the point of impact. In general, go light for caliber, e.g., 130 gr TTSX in .308. Where you might go with a ~168gr cup and core in .308, if you choose that weight Barnes TSX or TTSX, you may not like the results.

The LRX series changes it some, expanding well at lower speeds. At higher speeds, they may shed petals, but the base will continue to penetrate well. Kinda like a Nosler Partition.

[wcj]

I took one elk with a Barnes X out of a 284 Win., worked ok. I have several friends who use and like them.

I am still a Nosler Partition fan. Used them from 50 to 450 yards and everything in between on dozens of elk, a couple of moose and a bear, never had a failure. Can't find any reason to change.

[okie john]

Expansion floor velocities per Barnes:


.277 129 gr. LRX- 1400 fps

.284 120 gr TTSX- 1700 fps
.284 139 gr. LRX- 1400 fps
.284 145 gr. LRX- 1500 fps

.308 150 gr. TTSX- 2000 fps
.308 168 gr. TTSX- 1500 fps
.308 175 gr. LRX- 1500 fps
.308 180 gr TTSX- 1500 fps


Okie John

[Paul D]

Cool.

Did they work with lung only shots?- didn't have to take out the shoulders?

Thanks

They will expand, and not just in gigantic animals.

I shot this kudu this year with a 30-06 I handloaded with a Barnes 180 grain TTSX bullet. One shot to the heart area dropped him immediately. The bullet came out of this kudu.

81258 81260

This wildebeest went down with one shot from a 300 WM using the same bullet at about 250-300 (?) shooting downhill.

81261

[DocGKR]

Lots of good comments.

Yes, the monolithic all copper bullets work very well.

In general, you want to go lighter with monolithic copper loads (ex. TSX, GMX) and heavier with bonded bullets (ex. TBBC, Accubond).

For example, if a "standard" .308 load is about 150 gr, for Elk consider a 130gr TSX or a 180gr Accubond.

[GJM]

I have shot two mule deer, four elk, and a moose with the Barnes Vortx 180 grain load in .300 Win Mag with excellent performance.

I should also add that I successfully shot Nosler Partition bullets for 25 years, using hand loads and factory loadings in .308, .270, .270 WSM, .270 Weatherby, .338-06, .338 WM and .375 H&H. What got me to Barnes was they shot great in a model 70 .300 WM I have, and I figured if I was going to the trouble to get high quality protein, I would prefer not having lead in my projectile.

[Lester Polfus]

Lots of good comments.

Yes, the monolithic all copper bullets work very well.

In general, you want to go lighter with monolithic copper loads (ex. TSX, GMX) and heavier with bonded bullets (ex. TBBC, Accubond).

For example, if a "standard" .308 load is about 150 gr, for Elk consider a 130gr TSX or a 180gr Accubond.

Hey Doc,

I get why we go down in bullet weight for copper. Would you be kind enough to take a moment and explain why we would go up for bonded?

[NPV]

I’ve got some time to decide on the caliber/rifle thought experiment. Oddly enough that Sig across was sitting next to a Seekins PH2 in the shop yesterday and it looked a lot more handy than the Seekins. Ever time I try and by a magnum .308 always steps in as the voice of reason…..

In the meantime are there any reading materials that the group would recommend for the hunt itself? As I said I’ll be getting more details on specific location, terrain, etc. soon but would like to start getting smarter on the basics now.

[okie john]

Ever time I try and by a magnum .308 always steps in as the voice of reason…..

Paging Lost River...


Okie John

[TWR]

A Kimber Montana in 308 and I could rule the world.

[GJM]

I’ve got some time to decide on the caliber/rifle thought experiment. Oddly enough that Sig across was sitting next to a Seekins PH2 in the shop yesterday and it looked a lot more handy than the Seekins. Ever time I try and by a magnum .308 always steps in as the voice of reason…..

In the meantime are there any reading materials that the group would recommend for the hunt itself? As I said I’ll be getting more details on specific location, terrain, etc. soon but would like to start getting smarter on the basics now.

I have a Cross in .308 and it is very nice.

The .308, and the Cross, have many virtues, but as dedicated elk caliber, it is an expert’s choice.

[wcj]

I've seen 308's work, not that different than an '06 and they have killed elk for years. I also saw one killed with a 556 green tip, a good shooter with a 50 yard shot in the ear. That doesn't make it an elk rifle.

I think GJM is correct, save it for the expert ethical hunter. Your first elk hunt are you going to have the personal self control to pass up shots? Most don't. My voice of reason says things go wrong, shots are farther than you wanted, your angle is bad, your aim is off a couple of inches, you have no margin for error. I still think we have an obligation to the elk to do it right. More bullet and more velocity help do it right.

Good luck, you have something fun to plan for.

[GJM]

I find elk to be the most regal of all NA animals, because of where they live, how they look, how they feel and smell, and how great they are to eat. Start out with a traditional elk rifle, caliber and bullet, get some experience, and then alter the formula, based on knowing what has worked in the field.

[Lost River]

Paging Lost River...


Okie John

:cool:

Ironically as you called, I was high in the Lost River Range stalking elk with a .308 on hand.


https://i.imgur.com/HyJFirF.jpg?1


A little backstory is appropriate though.

My father will be 80 in less than 2 months. The man has been an amazing hunter and taken me hunting from before I can remember. Now he has serious hearing issues, his sight is poor, and has onset of dementia though does not know it and I don't say anything, but it is obvious to anyone who has spent a good bit of time around him. For the last few years I have been trying to get him one last elk, even though he has killed over 50 in his lifetime, he really would like to shoot one and we hunt cows annually close to my cabin.

Last year we (I) saw between 25 to 100 elk per day, but I never could get him lined up on one, and finally, reluctantly on the last day, I dropped one just to fill the freezer. He later told a visiting friend he never saw an elk the entire time we hunted. Whether that is poor memory, or he actually never saw any is a good question.

Back to the last number of days. I located a number of elk each day, but many times they were simply in places that physically were too difficult to make an attempt at. Fast forward to yesterday, when Okie John paged, I was actually in the middle of an attempt to put a couple of cows in front of my dad.

I had spotted them from below during a good storm and watched them feed into some trees. Figuring they would bed down out of the weather, I had my dad, go up and get in position so when I pushed them out (If it actually worked right) they would come out into the open sagebrush hillside and he would have a shot.

So I spent about 1.5 hours going up a mountain around a big patch of timber to be in the right position wind and elevation wise to push the two cows out. Sure enough, I went in and found their fresh beds.

https://i.imgur.com/Z3ttb7J.jpg?1

It was obvious I had just pushed them out in front of me. It was snowing and the tracks were new. Plus I was jumping deer that appeared to have been pushed up by the cows.

So I moved quickly and quietly on their track:

https://i.imgur.com/vQHJRHS.jpg?1


Long storyy short, I pushed them out of the timber, onto to the open hillside to where my dad was. I took pictures of the tracks for him, as I never heard a shot. By best guess they walked past him at furthest 150 yards in the open, at closest, maybe 75. The wind was blowing pretty hard and it was snowing so I don't know if he had his head down and was not watching or what happened, but they managed to get past him on a wide open sagebrush hillside.

I showed him these tracks coming out of the timber:

https://i.imgur.com/oLLEsbO.jpg?1

At the same time we also discussed that while not successful, it was a great time. The timber pocket was a natural area for them. It was a fun stalk. We had a good time, even if we didn't fire a shot, (I really don't want to shoot one, as the point is to get him a shot at one. While I need the meat, I can kill one by myself if I go up alone, fairly quickly given a day or two) and that it was kind of hard to beat this kind of adventure.

The rifle I was using was my little (often discussed) 20" .308 Tikka. I have taken quite a number of elk with it, and the .308 cartridge in general. It simply works.

Okie gave some very good advice as have others, so I will just put out some addition thoughts.

Western elk hunting during rifle season can present some longer shot opportunities. 300-400 yard shots are pretty typical in my experience. In the last 20+ elk I have taken, only one or two (excluding ones killed with handguns) have been under 100 yards, and over 500. The majority are in the threes. A lot of this is environmental due to the fact I hunt late season and more open terrain usually.

This is pretty typical. However what may be typical for one hunter may not for another, but this is pretty normal terrain in the west.


https://i.imgur.com/hDiHSmd.jpg?1






Cartridges.

While I hunt a bunch using the .308, I also use a .300 WM late season when the ranges get long and the winds may be an issue. It gives that little extra edge. However most people I have found that in spite of what they say, they cannot shoot most any magnum cartridge precisely. Without a brake on mine, I would not even bother.

Precision placement kills elk, not foot pounds or head stamps or anything else. That is one of the reasons why I shoot a .308 so much. I can shoot it precisely. You are far better off with a smaller cartridge that you can drive tacks with, than a larger one that you shoot only marginally well. I have read that elk cartridges start with .338. I think this is written by people who have only killed a small handful in their lifetime and want to make up for inexperience and lack of confidence with a larger cartridge. The .338 is a very fine cartridge, but definitely not what I would call a minimum. The first dozen elk I killed were with a .270 Win, starting as a kid, and it worked perfectly. My mom used to use a .270 in a little savage 110 and she had no problem killing bulls with one. My dad used an Enfield rebarreled to .270 and same thing. Lots of elk. I probably could have stayed with a .270 my entire hunting career and saved 10s of thousands of dollars (literally) in rifles and scopes, brass, bullets, powder, etc, trying everything under the sun.

Knowing what I know now, if I was starting over today and wanted one gun for hunting the west (for coyotes to Mule Deer, to Moose and Elk, to bears of all sizes) and was a competent handloader, I would buy a Tikka .30-06 in stainless steel. The 30-06 is terribly under loaded as a factory cartridge. However, when handloaded it comes into its own and can be loaded far beyond the vast majority are aware of. The reason is that factory loading manuals have to take into account 100 + year old actions. That said, a modern well-built action, using good brass allows you to build safe loads that far exceed what the books show.


A good 180-200-220 grain bullet in a very accurate gun like a T3, topped with a scope of known quality is going to be very hard to beat. Phil Shoemaker a master guide in Alaska has stated that he sees little difference between a 200 grain 30-06 and various larger magnums.

Here is a direct quote from Mr. Shoemaker talking about using the 30-06 and killing:

The 30-06 with 220 grain bullets is a proven big bear cartridge. I have use 200 gr Partitions in mine to kill a number of big brown and Grizzly bears, including stopping some close range determined charges.

With the high BC bullets available today, you have the ability to shoot longer ranges accurately with plenty of retained energy and do so with a cartridge that does not have significant recoil. While I am absolutely a fan of the .308 and recommend it for many situations for the non handloader, for a person who is a knowledgeable handloader, the 30-06 is in my experience very hard to beat. As an example the Hornady ELD-X .30 cals have 212 and 220 grain bullets with BCs that are .663 and .654 respectively. That is higher than their 6.5 offerings.

The punchline is the 30-06 is still a very smart choice with modern propellants and modern projectiles, and in fact is probably one of the better all around choices for the west, offering a good balance of power and easy shooting characteristics.



People don't want to read or talk about it because it is old and considered boring. Plus when people talk about it, they don't really ever get into what it is actually capable of when loaded with modern powders and projectiles and smart loading techniques.

More in a bit.

[JTMcC]

It boils down to personal taste and preference but I agree 100% with what Lost River posts about 30-06.

A friend of mine who pursues elk (and everytrhing else but mainly elk)with a passion just put away his .300 RUM and went back to his old .270.

[Lost River]

continued

Wind.

It is rare that wind is not a factor at ranges past 300 yards

There was mention of shooting at 1,000 yards.

Don't.



Unless you have the ability to consistently shoot 5 rounds into a paper plate at that distance from field positions, with numb fingers, and while partly out of breath, you should not even consider it. Winds will humble you. 95% of people assume that wind is a horizontal game. They are wrong. I see guys print off a chart from an APP and think they are Good to Go. They then shoot at a target in the mountains and can't figure out why the spotters call "No impact, no idea" is suddenly one they are hearing over and over.

In the mountains, in the mornings you get updrafts. In the evenings, downdrafts. During the day, you get constantly switching winds. A bullet will ride thermals on an extended range shot and you can see a shot go literally feet off of what your range card says. You dial for a 3.5 mil shot and it is literally 2 feet higher than that because it caught an updraft that you failed to see in the open sagebrush. That's fine on a steel plate. It is totally unacceptable on an animal.

Your maximum range will change with conditions. One day it may be 400-500 yards, based on perfect conditions. In heavy winds and blowing snow, that may now be 250 yards. I personally use the paper plate rule. All bundled up in hunting clothes, wearing my pack, I have to be able to put 5 for 5 shots into a paper plate from actual practical shooting positions, and not a bench.

Worst case field conditions such as this:

Numbe fingers and difficult conditions.

https://i.imgur.com/NOwfQ7E.jpg

Or optimal days such as this:

https://i.imgur.com/hfmwuFo.jpg

Bottom line is that the environmental conditions will determine what a max range will be, rather than some pre-determined number.

But, 1,000 yards is not even a consideration, and that is coming from someone who has a professional background in using precision rifles. Too many factors come into play. Elk deserve better.

Hopefully this helps.

Lots to consider, and there are various opinions, and mine is only one of many.

[mmc45414]

The first dozen elk I killed were with a .270 Win, starting as a kid, and it worked perfectly. My mom used to use a .270 in a little savage 110 and she had no problem killing bulls with one. My dad used an Enfield rebarreled to .270 and same thing. Lots of elk. I probably could have stayed with a .270 my entire hunting career and saved 10s of thousands of dollars (literally) in rifles and scopes, brass, bullets, powder, etc, trying everything under the sun.
Was this typically with 150g bullets?

[Lost River]

Was this typically with 150g bullets?

Yes,

My dad loaded all our ammo. I never shot a factory loaded round until I bought some to fiddle with when I was in my twenties. Growing up my dad loaded 130s for Mule Deer and 150s for Elk, usually Noslers, though sometimes other brands such as Sierras or Speers.

Nobody dialed for shots back then. You simply zeroed 3" high at 100 yards and practiced on pieces of cardboard out to 400.

I did later find out that the 130s worked fine on elk too, when I mistakenly grabbed a wrong box. I ended up shooting a couple with 130s, but for the most part we always used 150 NPs.

[David S.]

Perhaps given the shooting world’s fascination with 1000+ yards precession rifle shooting, it’s easy to be dismissive of a 300 yard field shot.

ETA. Not directed at anyone in particular.

[Lester Polfus]

Perhaps given the shooting world’s fascination with 1000+ yards precession rifle shooting, it’s easy to be dismissive of a 300 yard field shot.

ETA. Not directed at anyone in particular.

I can sit in my office sometimes at home, look across the river canyon, and see elk. It's always late in the year after the leaves have dropped and there is no legal season. I've lazed it as between 600 and 700 yard where I see them. I could be from 50' in elevation above them, to 100' below them. The winds are highly variable, but it's an east/west river canyon, so in the morning there can be a wind blowing toward me from the bottom of the canyon, a wind blowing from left to right in the canyon, and a wind blowing away from me up the slope across the canyon in front of me.

I would not take that shot with the slider door on my office open and the rifle resting on my portable bench, much less when I'm wet, mildly hypothermic and exhausted from hiking up and down mountains all day. Oh, and just about any shot I take is going to be standing on my hind legs, because anytime I squat, kneel, or get into prone, my vision is restricted to about 50 yards.

300 yards is a hard, hard limit for me, and I'd really like to be at about 100.

ETA: I would totally try it on Johny Taliban and his RPG toting buddies, because even if I miss, I might screw up his plan. Also, if I gut shoot him, then it's big boy games, big boy rules. Not doing that to an elk though. There are things to be learned from long-range military shooting, and also things that don't apply.

[TWR]

I’ve got a 1000 yard steel range and it has taught me a lot. I’ve shot my 22-250AI with 75 grain Amax to the 28 Nosler my cousin built. The wind, weather and thermals are challenge enough but add in an animal that can take a step or two in the time it takes for a bullet to reach 1000 yards and there’s no way anyone should be stunt shooting like that.

I prefer to hunt and keep my shots around 300 yards.

[wcj]

I enjoyed the post from Lost River,
and my personal congratulations for taking Dad out for elk.
Those opportunities are fleeting and truly missed when gone.
Well done.

[Jimichanga]

***

The .308, and the Cross, have many virtues, but as dedicated elk caliber, it is an expert’s choice.

I would say this is sage advice with respect to shooting a 308 at elk. If you are shooting out west in high mountain or desert you have to really be on your wind calling game to ethically shoot an animal at distance in the wind. Shooting a magnum like a 300WM or a short action like 7SAUM or 300WSM with an efficient bullet will allow for more slop in your wind call.

If you are going on a hunting trip that you are spending a bunch of money on I would practice... a bunch. Rather than shoot the barrel out of my hunting rig and beat myself up practicing shooting a magnum round ($$$) with a light rifle I would build a switch barrel rifle. Screw on the 223 barrel and swap the bolt face and practice shooting in all kinds of field positions with the cheap 223 ammo in a barrel that you will never shoot out. Get used to dialing elevation on your scope and holding wind. When it is time to hunt, screw on the magnum barrel and swap the bolt face. Zero it for the new barrel and off you go. Same stock, trigger, scope and ergonomics as you have been practicing with.

If you have ever put together an AR it is really easy to build a bolt rifle that can shoot really well. You need a barrel vise and an action wrench or better yet find a shooting buddy who already has one. With most modern cnc cut actions you can buy a prefit barrel that you can easily change yourself without a gunsmith and it will headspace correctly.

Here is a quick rundown:

Zermatt Origin Short Action with magnum bolt face (875),
223 bolt face (125)
trigger tech special trigger (200),
Proof prefit barrel 300WSM or 7Saum (999 carbon fiber hunting barrel) or buy a lighter contour prefit steel barrel cheaper from a gunsmith that cuts prefits. ie Keystone Accuracy in PA
Proof prefit barrel in 308 or 223 for practice (580 steel) or again Keystone Accuracy
Stock of your choice KRG Bravo (350) or whatever rem 700 pattern hunting stock you prefer (look at XLR Element 4 MG if you like the cross' style)

If you want to stick with a factory gun the Seekins is a nice rifle, I would also look at Tikka. Sigs quality control is so hit or miss I would avoid the cross.

If you qualify for the discount on the Vortex you probably qualify for a discount on the Proof prefit barrels through expert voice. Any Vortex in the Razor line is worth having. I'm waiting on a Razor LHT 4.5-22. I would not recommend their other lines.

Cheers

Edited to add: you could buy a standard (308) bolt face in lieu of the 223 bolt face and have the 308 to practice with if you have your heart set on the 3-0-hate.

[Doc_Glock]

I would say this is sage advice with respect to shooting a 308 at elk. If you are shooting out west in high mountain or desert you have to really be on your wind calling game to ethically shoot an animal at distance in the wind. Shooting a magnum like a 300WM or a short action like 7SAUM or 300WSM with an efficient bullet will allow for more slop in your wind call.

If you are going on a hunting trip that you are spending a bunch of money on I would practice... a bunch. Rather than shoot the barrel out of my hunting rig and beat myself up practicing shooting a magnum round ($$$) with a light rifle I would build a switch barrel rifle. Screw on the 223 barrel and swap the bolt face and practice shooting in all kinds of field positions with the cheap 223 ammo in a barrel that you will never shoot out. Get used to dialing elevation on your scope and holding wind. When it is time to hunt, screw on the magnum barrel and swap the bolt face. Zero it for the new barrel and off you go. Same stock, trigger, scope and ergonomics as you have been practicing with.

If you have ever put together an AR it is really easy to build a bolt rifle that can shoot really well. You need a barrel vise and an action wrench or better yet find a shooting buddy who already has one. With most modern cnc cut actions you can buy a prefit barrel that you can easily change yourself without a gunsmith and it will headspace correctly.

Here is a quick rundown:

Zermatt Origin Short Action with magnum bolt face (875),
223 bolt face (125)
trigger tech special trigger (200),
Proof prefit barrel 300WSM or 7Saum (999 carbon fiber hunting barrel) or buy a lighter contour prefit steel barrel cheaper from a gunsmith that cuts prefits. ie Keystone Accuracy in PA
Proof prefit barrel in 308 or 223 for practice (580 steel) or again Keystone Accuracy
Stock of your choice KRG Bravo (350) or whatever rem 700 pattern hunting stock you prefer (look at XLR Element 4 MG if you like the cross' style)

If you want to stick with a factory gun the Seekins is a nice rifle, I would also look at Tikka. Sigs quality control is so hit or miss I would avoid the cross.

If you qualify for the discount on the Vortex you probably qualify for a discount on the Proof prefit barrels through expert voice. Any Vortex in the Razor line is worth having. I'm waiting on a Razor LHT 4.5-22. I would not recommend their other lines.

Cheers

Edited to add: you could buy a standard (308) bolt face in lieu of the 223 bolt face and have the 308 to practice with if you have your heart set on the 3-0-hate.

That is great!

Standard PF advise would be to just buy a second identical sub caliber trainer rifle and skip the barrel swap. I didn't realize barrels were so easy to swap on bolt guns though.

[Duelist]

That is great!

Standard PF advise would be to just buy a second identical sub caliber trainer rifle and skip the barrel swap. I didn't realize barrels were so easy to swap on bolt guns though.

They *can* be easy to swap, but aren’t on standard rifles: this is something that would work on specific rifles, only with the proper preparation. May be cheaper and simpler to get a second rifle. Of course, then you have to get a second scope, or have your scope set up to swap between your rifles.

[Jimichanga]

They *can* be easy to swap, but aren’t on standard rifles: this is something that would work on specific rifles, only with the proper preparation. May be cheaper and simpler to get a second rifle. Of course, then you have to get a second scope, or have your scope set up to swap between your rifles.

You have to buy a modern cnc cut action to use prefit shouldered barrels, i.e. Defiance Rukus, Tenacity or anTi; Zermatt Origin, TL3; Impact 737; ARC Archimedes to name a few. The tolerances are so tight and repeatable you can buy barrels from the barrel makers/gunsmiths without sending your action into a gunsmith to be measured and have them cut a "one of" for your specific action. It has driven costs of new barrels down significantly. Lots of smiths cut prefits and there is lots of competition. It wont work on older Rem 700s, Win 70s etc.

The nice thing about the Zermatt actions is that you can just swap the $120 bolt head to switch between magnum, 223, standard or PPC without buying a complete new bolt for 400ish with other manufacturers.

You screw the new shouldered barrel on to the the action to the torque spec that the manufacturer calls for and you are off to the races. Unscrew the bbl and screw on the next and you are ready to go.

Outfitting a second precision rifle as a trainer hurts when you are buying a second $2k+ scope. Definitely doesn't pencil out on a hunting rifle you use once a season.

[TWR]

Still, the only way to know your magnum is to shoot it, not a lesser version.

[Cool Breeze]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

[okie john]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

Modern hunting cartridges and loads are more alike than they are different. As a rule of thumb, the newer a cartridge is, the more accurate it tends to be and the less fiddling it requires to be field-ready.

Any superiority of handloads over factory ammo depends on the cartridge itself. Old cartridges like the 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, and 45-70 Springfield are radically underloaded to keep them from blowing up old guns. Handloads in modern firearms can increase velocity 3-400 fps or more with the same or greater bullet weights of all of these. This can also go the other way--some cartridges that are loaded to full power today were loaded 2-300 fps slower 30 or 40 years ago.

308 and 30-06 factory loads are usually within 100 fps of each other. You can easily see that much difference between a rifle in ether chambering that tends to run slow versus one that tends to run fast. Handloading can bump up the 30-06 in standard bullet weights (150-180 grains) by 150-175 fps; whether that juice is worth the squeeze is another story. Modern handloads in the 30-06 shine with modern powders and bullets over about 200 grains. At that point the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 starts to matter, but we've stacked the deck heavily in favor of the 30-06.

Most cartridges introduced since privately-owned chronographs became common were developed with accuracy specifically in mind. They're only chambered in modern rifles, so factory ammo is loaded to full power and it tends to be accurate. Any discussion of the superiority of handloads over factory loads for them must include how the load was developed and why. Chances are that a third of it comes from chasing an inconsequential increment of velocity or accuracy, a third comes from trying to make some odd combination of components work in a specific rifle, and the rest is just there to give youtubers something to talk about.

4 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you're a good hunter. 2 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you can shoot. 1 MOA provides confidence but you really don't need it until you get to distances where few of us have any business shooting at game. 0.5 MOA can inspire overconfidence, especially if you only see it in small doses.

Finally, developing the ability to shoot consistent 1 MOA groups in the field means getting away from the bench, duplicating hunting conditions in training, swallowing a boatload of pride, and burning a boatload of ammo. That's not sexy so there's not much of it on YouTube.


Okie John

[peterb]

Finally, developing the ability to shoot consistent 1 MOA groups in the field means getting away from the bench, duplicating hunting conditions in training, swallowing a boatload of pride, and burning a boatload of ammo. That's not sexy so there's not much of it on YouTube.

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

[okie john]

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

Absolutely. And you can definitely learn to dope wind with a 22 as ranges increase.


Okie John

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Can some of the work on offhand and position shooting be done effectively with a rimfire rifle, using reduced-scale targets at reduced range? You obviously wouldn’t get the wind doping practice, but I’d think some of the basic skills could be improved with a similar setup.

Google NRL22 matches, here is my son shooting a "bonus stage" at a NRL 22 match several years ago....

The hunting season after this match he used a gamechanger bag rested on the back of a ladder stand to take an awkward shot that I may not have let him, if he had never left a bench...

[UNM1136]

Going back to caliber selection. When factoring in factory ammo does this change the recommendation?

Its one thing to say that I recommend abc because it can do xyz but if that is only under optimal hand loads it is really not helpful (at least as I read it in this situation). A lot of these youtube channels, when talking about ballistics, pull up some hornady or nosler handload book and give you the stats. That is great if you handload but if you don't...how much does the caliber preference change if you limit cartridge selection to only what is available from the factory? Just out of pure curiosity I've watched a few of these youtubers and the only one I have seen really recommend a factory load is Randy Newberg and it was was 7mm-08 140 gr. Nosler Accubond Trophy Grade, .308 165 gr Partition Trophy Grade, or .308 168gr E-tip Trophy grade. I think he has also used 300 win mag in certain situations too. But even then, he is sponsored by Nosler - so I guess you never know.

Or are factory loadings so good these days it really doesn't matter?

IME good rounds is good rounds. But with my heirloom '03A3 ANYTHING over 150 grains is no go. 165s double the size ofthe group. 180s quadruple it. I know this because I shoot the shit out of my guns, especially if I count on them for life stuff. Survival (my Glocks and ARs), or food (my '03A3 and muzzle loader).

Barnes TTSX 150 gr rounds have done me happy. They are not what I would consider mathematically ideal for elk or moose, but I shoot the shit outta my stuff. They will keel. With 150s I can tell you the expected drift of my rounds as the barrel of my rifle heats up for the first 10 rounds. I shoot my hunting gun that much. A 500 yard shot is ethical; I can put it in a dinner plate at that distance. For the first three rounds. After that we start stringing to the right.

If you are a bench rester or have the time and money to do a five figure hunt then your edge begins with handloading, and includes a super rig. I have handloaded, in the past, but not now, and it was an economy thing, not an accuracy/lethality thing.

If you hunt when and where you can you absolutely have to know what you can do, and pass on marginal or worse shots.

The whole spiritual or ethical hunter thing includes passing on marginal shots and taking the ones you know you can make. Conditions you can control (rifle, cartridge, training, experience) are super important, but those you can't control (environment, range, weather) still get a vote.

I guess what I am saying is that you can do what you want. If you post it on the internet then you will either be a hero or a zero, and the facts have little to do with it. If you take a 400 yard shot and make it you are either super cool, or or unethical and lucky.

pat

[TWR]

Very few people shoot enough to know their rifles. Those that do, know their limits or maybe boundaries is a better word.

The latest and greatest whizbangers can help but will never equal actually shooting enough to know your rifle.

[Salamander]

Lots of good information in this thread. I'm going to come at it from a different direction because while I've never hunted elk (tags are hard to get here on the coast, and most locals go out of state to stock the freezer), I do encounter lots of elk while on project sites or weekend backcountry hikes.

There's a lot of regional variation, as some have touched on above. Although I'm a transplant from Illinois some 21 years ago, I spent a lot of time out here before permanently relocating and I'm an ecologist by training. For many flatlanders, the habitat diversity and microclimate in the mountains comes as a revelation. It can be tall timber on a north facing slope, and dense brush on the next south facing slope. Even age second growth woods are very different from multi-canopy mature forest. Up higher, the weather can change in minutes, and then change again. Saturday it was 55 here in the coastal fog, low 60s a few miles inland, and by the time I got to the range 12 miles inland and a couple thousand feet higher it was 10 degrees cooler.

Here on the coast we have Roosevelt elk, which can get really large and sometimes are fairly easy to approach. I looked for a photo from a few years ago and can't seem to find it right now, I was walking the edge of willow/alder riparian habitat through a coastal prairie opening not far from old growth redwood, came around a corner, and found myself 25 yards from a bull elk... in the fall. One photo, and back out of there. That's perhaps a little closer than usual, but 100 yard observations are common in those prairie openings most of the year. A few counties southeast in oak woodland, most of my observations have been at over 300 yards and close approach is difficult.

Sightlines and terrain vary a lot. There are places near here where it's hard to see 50 feet, and there's a twice-burned wilderness about 100 miles away with vistas stretching sometimes for miles. Anyone in above average shape can acclimate pretty quickly to the terrain and up to mid elevations, that doesn't make it easy or fast to get to that next ridge.

Wind... yeah. Our rifle range is in a valley with low mountains on three sides. Usually pretty calm in the morning, usually breezy later in the day. Not at all unusual for the 100 yard flag to be blowing in a different direction than the ones at 300 or 500. The up/downdrafts are less of an issue at that particular location but it's very real in many places with terrain.

My suggestion is find a landscape that appeals, and then spend some time hiking and getting to know it.

[ECVMatt]

I have used the 30/06 for many years and it has proven reliable. From deer to moose it just works for me. There is also the finding ammo thing when you are in a somewhat remote location. Last time I was in AK we left from the small town of Aniak. They had a well stocked store with all of the staple cartridges on the shelf. They had zero of the newer rounds. That is just something to consider. I have stuck to more traditional bullets and have had great success with them. the 165 Grn. Gameking is a great bullet for deer. It is not fancy, but it works. Like others here I try not shoot beyond 300 yards in the field. I enjoy the stalk as much as the shot, so trying to get close is a must.

I do feel it is important to get a cartridge and rifle that interests you and that you would like to learn to shoot. If the .308 - 30/06 are too pedestrian I get that. Just know that you don't have to get too caught up in the latest and greatest to have a good hunting rifle.

From the ridgetops to the river bottoms, the 30/06 will get it done.

81723

81725

[Shotgun]

. . . Finally, start doing cardio today. The highest point in Connecticut is ~2,400 feet above sea level, which is lower than where most Western hunting starts. The difference in your performance between low elevations and 5,000’ ASL can be a slap in the face if you’re not expecting it. Lungs the size of grocery sacks are the goal.

None of this stuff is sexy, but it’s all more important than whatever rifle, scope, and cartridge you end up buying.


Okie John

Quit talking sense Okie John.

On a serious note, what a great post. Something like that could be turned into an article for Sports Afield. To sum up, a butt that looks like chewed bubble gum is severely limited on a mountain elk hunt. Regarding the rifle, I don't recall reading whether NPV said whether he has shot a lot or whether he is recoil sensitive in any way. NPV, you might try finding a friend or acquaintance who has a 300 WM and go shoot it before you go that route. The 7 mm you are considering recoils slightly heavier than a 30-06 and may be much more pleasurable to practice with if there is any recoil sensitivity.

[willie]

Modern hunting cartridges and loads are more alike than they are different. As a rule of thumb, the newer a cartridge is, the more accurate it tends to be and the less fiddling it requires to be field-ready.

Any superiority of handloads over factory ammo depends on the cartridge itself. Old cartridges like the 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, and 45-70 Springfield are radically underloaded to keep them from blowing up old guns. Handloads in modern firearms can increase velocity 3-400 fps or more with the same or greater bullet weights of all of these. This can also go the other way--some cartridges that are loaded to full power today were loaded 2-300 fps slower 30 or 40 years ago.

308 and 30-06 factory loads are usually within 100 fps of each other. You can easily see that much difference between a rifle in ether chambering that tends to run slow versus one that tends to run fast. Handloading can bump up the 30-06 in standard bullet weights (150-180 grains) by 150-175 fps; whether that juice is worth the squeeze is another story. Modern handloads in the 30-06 shine with modern powders and bullets over about 200 grains. At that point the difference between the 308 and the 30-06 starts to matter, but we've stacked the deck heavily in favor of the 30-06.

Most cartridges introduced since privately-owned chronographs became common were developed with accuracy specifically in mind. They're only chambered in modern rifles, so factory ammo is loaded to full power and it tends to be accurate. Any discussion of the superiority of handloads over factory loads for them must include how the load was developed and why. Chances are that a third of it comes from chasing an inconsequential increment of velocity or accuracy, a third comes from trying to make some odd combination of components work in a specific rifle, and the rest is just there to give youtubers something to talk about.

4 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you're a good hunter. 2 MOA will put a lot of meat on the table if you can shoot. 1 MOA provides confidence but you really don't need it until you get to distances where few of us have any business shooting at game. 0.5 MOA can inspire overconfidence, especially if you only see it in small doses.

Finally, developing the ability to shoot consistent 1 MOA groups in the field means getting away from the bench, duplicating hunting conditions in training, swallowing a boatload of pride, and burning a boatload of ammo. That's not sexy so there's not much of it on YouTube.


Okie John

An outstanding narrative on the subject! I would add one comment and that is know your limitations. I am not a rifleman and restricted animal targets to 150 yards or less. About a 4 inch MOA. You will hit within 2 inches of your aiming point. Sometimes we fail to appreciate this obvious statement. There's nothing cool or trendy about the 30-06, but the caliber is a worthwhile choice for many of us.

[Lost River]

An outstanding narrative on the subject! I would add one comment and that is know your limitations. I am not a rifleman and restricted animal targets to 150 yards or less. About a 4 inch MOA. You will hit within 2 inches of your aiming point. Sometimes we fail to appreciate this obvious statement. There's nothing cool or trendy about the 30-06, but the caliber is a worthwhile choice for many of us.

I will beg to differ my Friend.

I think the 30-06 is a very cool cartridge. It will handle 212 grain Hornady ELD-X projectiles and 155 grain Lapua Scenars, both with ease, making it exceptionally versatile, putting many of the newcomers squarely on their butts, and not burning a barrel out in the process.

It may not be trendy, that is true, but I have never been one to follow trends, or even know where to find one, nor care where to look. :cool:


https://i.imgur.com/9Dq6AAc.jpg?1

[Cool Breeze]

I have used the 30/06 for many years and it has proven reliable. From deer to moose it just works for me. There is also the finding ammo thing when you are in a somewhat remote location. Last time I was in AK we left from the small town of Aniak. They had a well stocked store with all of the staple cartridges on the shelf. They had zero of the newer rounds. That is just something to consider. I have stuck to more traditional bullets and have had great success with them. the 165 Grn. Gameking is a great bullet for deer. It is not fancy, but it works. Like others here I try not shoot beyond 300 yards in the field. I enjoy the stalk as much as the shot, so trying to get close is a must.

I do feel it is important to get a cartridge and rifle that interests you and that you would like to learn to shoot. If the .308 - 30/06 are too pedestrian I get that. Just know that you don't have to get too caught up in the latest and greatest to have a good hunting rifle.

From the ridgetops to the river bottoms, the 30/06 will get it done.

81723

81725

Matt - Great pic! May I ask where the picture was taken of the deer? That is some majestic scenery!

[Lester Polfus]

As an aside, I don't do much modern firearm elk hunting in SW Washington, but when I do, I spend much more time thinking about what boots I'm going to wear than what rifle cartridge I'm going to use.

[ECVMatt]

Matt - Great pic! May I ask where the picture was taken of the deer? That is some majestic scenery!

Yes, I shot that deer in Alger's Basin above Silver Lake at about 11000 feet. It is Mono County, CA near the town of June Lake.

Beautiful country up there and very challenging hunting. I live at sea level so the first couple of days up there really get me sucking wind. It is a killer getting up there, but once the work is done you have the whole place to yourself.

[UNM1136]

Some of my favorite spots are at home altitude or lower....I love my home state. If the hunting/draw system were less...political patronage it would be ideal. A record 420 class bull elk was poached a couple of hours away from here a few years ago with a .22. As it is, altitude wise, I am able to train to 12K within a 30 minute drive.

I am annually purchasing preference points in CO, though...

2 cow tags OTC for $700 in some areas is very, very tempting. Couple of bucks per pound (on average) for delicious, grass fed, organic, free range self butchered meat that is leaner than chicken breast.

Yes, please!

Lost River, I am seriously trying to shoot out a family heirloom '03-a3 to either re-barrel and stay 30'06 (possibly AI), or step up to .35 Whelen AI (if you are going to go, go big and fast...) 6.5 CM is my next semiauto elk gun, and I will be getting each of the kids AR15s in .300BO for close range elk work or 6.5G for longer range stuff if the .gov starts working against black rifles again.

pat

[NPV]

Quit talking sense Okie John.

On a serious note, what a great post. Something like that could be turned into an article for Sports Afield. To sum up, a butt that looks like chewed bubble gum is severely limited on a mountain elk hunt. Regarding the rifle, I don't recall reading whether NPV said whether he has shot a lot or whether he is recoil sensitive in any way. NPV, you might try finding a friend or acquaintance who has a 300 WM and go shoot it before you go that route. The 7 mm you are considering recoils slightly heavier than a 30-06 and may be much more pleasurable to practice with if there is any recoil sensitivity.

I’m just catching up with this thread now, and still have a lot to review/digest.

I have owned a .300 WSM, .300 WM, and various .308s. I’ve reloaded a LOT of .308 ammunition though primarily for punching holes and hitting steel. Honestly I’m not sure how relevant those rifles are in way of comparison however as they were all boat anchors compared to the rifles I’m looking at for this purpose. However I have shot 50 rounds of .300 WSM in a range session without developing bad habits so I don’t think I’m too recoil sensitive. On hand I also have a decent amount of .308 match ammo, brass, cartridge cases, etc. which is part of the reason I am drawn to it over the 30-06, even knowing the 30-06 is way more capable when handloading.

To address another poster in this thread I was an early adopter of the XLR Carbon Chassis and come to think of it I never warmed up to it like my McMillian A3-5. So I guess that tells me that although the Sig Cross is cool it’s probably not for me even if I decided to go .308.

[pyrotechnic]

As an aside, I don't do much modern firearm elk hunting in SW Washington, but when I do, I spend much more time thinking about what boots I'm going to wear than what rifle cartridge I'm going to use.

This x2 , find a good set of boots that fit you well.
Lots of people kill elk with what is essentially a sharp stick every year. Being miserable because your feet hurt while hiking around makes for a shit time.

[Lester Polfus]

Lots of people kill elk with what is essentially a sharp stick every year.

Funny you should mention that. Can't lay claim to the "every year" part though....

81801

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rifle caliber discussion...

[Pistol Pete 10]

I have a .270 but I'm old and don't fix it if it ain't broke. A 3006 would work.

[GJM]

SteveB found this very interesting discussion of elk bullets.

https://d2saw6je89goi1.cloudfront.net/uploads/digital_asset/file/896899/Choosing_The_Right_Bullet_For_Elk_Hunting.pdf

[ccmdfd]

SteveB found this very interesting discussion of elk bullets.

https://d2saw6je89goi1.cloudfront.net/uploads/digital_asset/file/896899/Choosing_The_Right_Bullet_For_Elk_Hunting.pdf

Man, what a great read!

And I'm not even an Elk hunter.

I'm going to have to do some research on that guy and see what he has to say about deer bullets.

Thanks for sharing

[wcj]

SteveB found this very interesting discussion of elk bullets.

https://d2saw6je89goi1.cloudfront.net/uploads/digital_asset/file/896899/Choosing_The_Right_Bullet_For_Elk_Hunting.pdf

Absolutely on point

[David S.]

SteveB found this very interesting discussion of elk bullets.

https://d2saw6je89goi1.cloudfront.net/uploads/digital_asset/file/896899/Choosing_The_Right_Bullet_For_Elk_Hunting.pdf

I listened to this podcast and a previous podcast about selecting the right ammo for an elk hunt. (Big Game Hunting Podcast: Episode 96)

This may be a separate thread, I don't know.

How much of all this has to do with getting an acceptable bullet on target within the velocity window the bullet was designed for?

Hit the target too fast or too slow and you get negative characteristics (penciling, exploding, etc).

It seems like knowing the velocity window information would be very useful in tailoring the firearm and loading to the situation.

In case I have to say it, I'm just an ignorant dumbass asking questions about things I don't understand.

[GJM]

I listened to this podcast and a previous podcast about selecting the right ammo for an elk hunt. (Big Game Hunting Podcast: Episode 96)

This may be a separate thread, I don't know.

How much of all this has to do with getting an acceptable bullet on target within the velocity window the bullet was designed for?

Hit the target too fast or too slow and you get negative characteristics (penciling, exploding, etc).

It seems like knowing the velocity window information would be very useful in tailoring the firearm and loading to the situation.

In case I have to say it, I'm just an ignorant dumbass asking questions about things I don't understand.

I think we can safely plan on a distance envelope of 5 yards to 550 yards! :p

[Shotgun]

NPV, it's Christmas. Did you pull the trigger on a purchase? I don't know why, but I seem to get interested in watching threads like this to see the discussion, which has been very good here, and to see what someone ends up with.

(To the readers not named NPV, my guess is that 300 WM is the leading candidate for a new rifle. Too bad we can't do some sort of squares on this like in a football pool.)

[okie john]

How much of all this has to do with getting an acceptable bullet on target within the velocity window the bullet was designed for?

Hit the target too fast or too slow and you get negative characteristics (penciling, exploding, etc).

Super important. You might be able to hit something at 6-700 yards but the bullet has to participate.



Okie John

[secondstoryguy]

Be careful going to MT...I visited and 3 months later I moved there for about 6 years.

When I lived there I used .308 for pretty much everything. It worked well and the Kimber Montana rifle that I had chambered in it was a dream to carry and hunt with.

[secondstoryguy]

I think we can safely plan on a distance envelope of 5 yards to 550 yards! :p

This is a good point and something to really factor in. I've seen bullets perform flawlessly at 75+ yards but when shots are taken at 15-25 yards the bullet just comes apart rendering it ineffective, especially on thicker skinned game like elk and hogs. I spent many years shooting hogs at various ranges (and elk) with the best luck coming from quality bonded bullets and Barnes type solid copper bullets. The one bullet that always surprised me with regards to accuracy and terminal performance for the cost was the Federal Fusion. My buddy runs a thermal hog hunting guide business and uses the Fusion in .308 for pretty much all of his hunts and has excellent results.

[Mitch]

This is a good point and something to really factor in. I've seen bullets perform flawlessly at 75+ yards but when shots are taken at 15-25 yards the bullet just comes apart rendering it ineffective, especially on thicker skinned game like elk and hogs. I spent many years shooting hogs at various ranges (and elk) with the best luck coming from quality bonded bullets and Barnes type solid copper bullets. The one bullet that always surprised me with regards to accuracy and terminal performance for the cost was the Federal Fusion. My buddy runs a thermal hog hunting guide business and uses the Fusion in .308 for pretty much all of his hunts and has excellent results.

My buddy hit a good sized hog with a Federal Fusion 308 180 gr this spring. No joke, the thing looked like it was hit with a lightning bolt. First bang, drop I’ve seen in person. I was super impressed and bought up a bunch after that. I was hoping to get up to Wisconsin this year to try it on a white tail but that didn’t happen. Might try it on a boar this spring if we make the trip again.

[RevolverRob]

I’m just catching up with this thread now, and still have a lot to review/digest.

I have owned a .300 WSM, .300 WM, and various .308s. I’ve reloaded a LOT of .308 ammunition though primarily for punching holes and hitting steel. Honestly I’m not sure how relevant those rifles are in way of comparison however as they were all boat anchors compared to the rifles I’m looking at for this purpose. However I have shot 50 rounds of .300 WSM in a range session without developing bad habits so I don’t think I’m too recoil sensitive. On hand I also have a decent amount of .308 match ammo, brass, cartridge cases, etc. which is part of the reason I am drawn to it over the 30-06, even knowing the 30-06 is way more capable when handloading.

To address another poster in this thread I was an early adopter of the XLR Carbon Chassis and come to think of it I never warmed up to it like my McMillian A3-5. So I guess that tells me that although the Sig Cross is cool it’s probably not for me even if I decided to go .308.

You've got brass, bullets, and loads you know. Each rifle is different, but you've got enough experience with .308 to work through your dope quickly. There isn't anything on this continent you can't take with a well placed .308.

Buy a Tikka T3x and top it with good glass that isn't too heavy for humping in the field all day. Work up a 125-grain soft shooter for deer on your side of the continent and some heavy 180s for elk on the other side.

Call it a day.

[secondstoryguy]

My buddy hit a good sized hog with a Federal Fusion 308 180 gr this spring. No joke, the thing looked like it was hit with a lightning bolt. First bang, drop I’ve seen in person. I was super impressed and bought up a bunch after that. I was hoping to get up to Wisconsin this year to try it on a white tail but that didn’t happen. Might try it on a boar this spring if we make the trip again.

It seems to be very accurate as well. I shot an honest to god 2" 5-shot 300 yard group with it outta my Kimber. It also runs well out of my AR10 with MOA or better accuracy.

[OlongJohnson]

The one bullet that always surprised me with regards to accuracy and terminal performance for the cost was the Federal Fusion. My buddy runs a thermal hog hunting guide business and uses the Fusion in .308 for pretty much all of his hunts and has excellent results.

Fusion is basically a Gold Dot for rifles. I believe the ammo marketed for defensive/LE use in rifles as Gold Dot is as close as matters the same stuff as Fusion.

[OlongJohnson]

Buy a Tikka T3x and top it with good glass that isn't too heavy for humping in the field all day. Work up a 125-grain soft shooter for deer on your side of the continent and some heavy 180s for elk on the other side.

Call it a day.


Lost River's sig over on the fire:


The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world.

[Mitch]

It seems to be very accurate as well. I shot an honest to god 2" 5-shot 300 yard group with it outta my Kimber. It also runs well out of my AR10 with MOA or better accuracy.

My experience with a Ruger American matches that too. It’s great stuff for the money. I’m sure the Barnes solid copper stuff is better, but for my purposes I don’t think it’s worth the price difference.

For 308 anyway. For my 50 cal muzzleloader, Barnes all day every day.

[WDR]

Fusion is basically a Gold Dot for rifles. I believe the ammo marketed for defensive/LE use in rifles as Gold Dot is as close as matters the same stuff as Fusion.

That's basically it... Fusion/Gold Dot seems to make a fine deer bullet, IME and IMHO. Its a bit "soft" for something like elk, IMHO. Probably a small step up from a traditional cup and core bullet though.

[NPV]

NPV, it's Christmas. Did you pull the trigger on a purchase? I don't know why, but I seem to get interested in watching threads like this to see the discussion, which has been very good here, and to see what someone ends up with.

(To the readers not named NPV, my guess is that 300 WM is the leading candidate for a new rifle. Too bad we can't do some sort of squares on this like in a football pool.)

Nope a family member of mine (who hunts out west) happened to have won a Howa 1500 in 7mm RM. He’s got a Huskemaw scope he wants to get it setup with. I’ve got time off this week and will buy some rings and get it setup and zeroed for him and potentially work up a load for it if I can get components (primers, powder).

So I’ll get some time behind a magnum.

[okie john]

Nope a family member of mine (who hunts out west) happened to have won a Howa 1500 in 7mm RM. He’s got a Huskemaw scope he wants to get it setup with. I’ve got time off this week and will buy some rings and get it setup and zeroed for him and potentially work up a load for it if I can get components (primers, powder).

So I’ll get some time behind a magnum.

The 7 RM kicks a bit more than a 30-06 but only a bit. Great cartridge, though.


Okie John

[Borderland]

Be careful going to MT...I visited and 3 months later I moved there for about 6 years.

When I lived there I used .308 for pretty much everything. It worked well and the Kimber Montana rifle that I had chambered in it was a dream to carry and hunt with.

Too many people over think this. 308 is basically a 30-06 in a short action that has planted a lot of elk. Bullets matter so pay attention to that. Cartridges over 30 cal. not so much. Jack O'Conner used a 7 mm on almost everything. Ammo companies know your needs and offer you the ammo to do job. It isn't the 60's any more.