9mm in a .38

[03RN]

Where better to ask about this then here?
https://americanreloading.com/en/9mm-38-super-380-auto-355-356/3230-9mm-147gr-gold-dot-g2-black-coated-500ct.html
How best should I extrapolate data for a .355 147gr bullet? I think be-86 would be my best bet of what I have to try and reach 1000fps.

1k fps is my goal only because thats what the factory 9mm is loaded to +/-.

I am getting 1000fps with 4" m64 and 950fps with a 4" m10 with a 158gr swc over 5.7 be-86.

[the Schwartz]

Where better to ask about this then here?
https://americanreloading.com/en/9mm-38-super-380-auto-355-356/3230-9mm-147gr-gold-dot-g2-black-coated-500ct.html
How best should I extrapolate data for a .355 147gr bullet? I think be-86 would be my best bet of what I have to try and reach 1000fps.

1k fps is my goal only because thats what the factory 9mm is loaded to +/-.

I am getting 1000fps with 4" m64 and 950fps with a 4" m10 with a 158gr swc over 5.7 be-86.

With those bullets being slightly under-bore at 0.355'', I suspect that you could probably use the BE-86 data "as is" and expect somewhat lower pressures and correspondingly lower velocities in the 0.357 bore. Just the same, I would work up from the minimum loading watching for any signs of pressure.

Years ago, a friend (mechanical engineer) and I hand loaded 115-grain 9mm Gold Dot JHPs over copious amounts of Unique (I won't say how much here for safety concerns) for use in a 6'' Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum. We were able to safely(?) exceed the maximum published loads by a considerable amount and, with our heaviest charges, we were able to push them to just over 2,000 fps. We chose the GP100 for its strength, and nowadays, I don't know that I would necessarily trust any other platform for such experimentation if I was silly enough to experiment with that sort of thing again.

[03RN]

Thanks

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Years ago, a friend (mechanical engineer) and I hand loaded 115-grain 9mm Gold Dot JHPs over copious amounts of Unique . . . . with our heaviest charges, we were able to push them to just over 2,000 fps.

Damn son! That is edging out .30 carbine... from a rifle.

[the Schwartz]

Damn son! That is edging out .30 carbine... from a rifle.

I cannot imagine what the pressure of many of those loads was and I doubt that a lesser gun would've been so tolerant of our youthful indiscretions. ;)

[Outpost75]

The 9mm bullets are too small to fit and seal the cylinder throats and I would expect accuracy to be poor. Furthermore, I would expect gas lancing around the undersized bullet to cause erosion of the ball seats with high volume use of undersized bullets in magnum loads.

[BN]

Back around 2000 I was shooting a .3555" 147 plated 9mm bullet in 38 Special trying to make a 130 power factor. I shot several thousand of them. I got around or just under 900 fps using regular Bullseye powder. After 2 or 3 years of this I had my gunsmith, Al Greco, rebuild it and he replaced the barrel. I don't know how much the smaller bullets had to do with that. It's the revolver in my avatar.

[03RN]

The 9mm bullets are too small to fit and seal the cylinder throats and I would expect accuracy to be poor. Furthermore, I would expect gas lancing around the undersized bullet to cause erosion of the ball seats with high volume use of undersized bullets in magnum loads.

Wasn't the federal 147gr +p+ a .355 bullet? I'm not planning on high volume shooting with them. Just experimenting.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38-special-plus-p-147-gr-hs-jhp-federal-le-50-rounds

[Outpost75]

Wasn't the federal 147gr +p+ a .355 bullet? I'm not planning on high volume shooting with them. Just experimenting.

https://www.luckygunner.com/38-special-plus-p-147-gr-hs-jhp-federal-le-50-rounds

I never measured any. Perhaps.If so not best engineering solution unless core pure lead and jacket thin enough to encourage base upset.

[03RN]

I never measured any. Perhaps.If so not best engineering solution unless core pure lead and jacket thin enough to encourage base upset.

I thought I read it was just their 9mm bullet pushed as fast as they could.

[Jim Watson]

I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.

Ed Harris once did a piece on 9mm bullets in .38 Special (and vice versa, which works fine) and concluded that he needed a special order tight neck sizing die to get good bullet pull on the 9mms. He also reported that a full charge .357 Magnum load would blow up some of the 9mm bullets of the day.

[03RN]

I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.

Ed Harris once did a piece on 9mm bullets in .38 Special (and vice versa, which works fine) and concluded that he needed a special order tight neck sizing die to get good bullet pull on the 9mms. He also reported that a full charge .357 Magnum load would blow up some of the 9mm bullets of the day.

Good to know. Thanks

[03RN]

Looks like I even have some usable data for the 231 I've got on hand too.
80834

Not sure why they call 17,700 CUP max though

[BN]

I tried 9mm bullets in .38 Special and could not get the bullets snug in the cases, even with no expander.


I had forgotten about that. Some brass worked better than others. Fed nickle was bad.

[Velo Dog]

Wasn't the federal 147gr +p+ a .355 bullet?

The 147 gr. 38 Special Hydra-Shok was different from the 9mm version which did not have a cannelure.

The FBI initially experimented with loading 9mm bullets in 38 cases, but Federal made a .357 bullet with cannelure for actual issued duty ammo.

The cannelure seems to have helped with barrier penetration.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

[03RN]

The 147 gr. 38 Special Hydra-Shok was different from the 9mm version which did not have a cannelure.

The FBI initially experimented with loading 9mm bullets in 38 cases, but Federal made a .357 bullet with cannelure for actual issued duty ammo.

The cannelure seems to have helped with barrier penetration.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

Thanks for that.

[WDR]

Not sure why they call 17,700 CUP max though

That is the pressure for that particular combo, in their testing, of those components, at their listed max charge, not the specification for .38 Special. IE: the pressure they measured in testing of their listed max load.

I understand your reasoning for pursuing this idea, and the thoughts have occurred to me as well. I suspect if the demand was there, you'd see some of the more modern 9mm bullets adapted for .38 or .357 use... but the demand just isn't there I guess. The closest things to a modern .38 JHP load to date, IMHO: Winchester 130gr bonded bullet, the 135gr Speer Gold Dot bullet, and the Federal 130gr HST (which seems like a flop, IMHO). I was excited about the HST load when I first heard about it, but the unconventional "wadcutter" style loading seems to have turned some folks off of it, me included. I'd have preferred to see a more conventional HST bullet in .38. The new .38 Punch load seems close. I've not yet been tempted to try it though.

[03RN]

That is the pressure for that particular combo, in their testing, of those components, at their listed max charge, not the specification for .38 Special. IE: the pressure they measured in testing of their listed max load.

I understand your reasoning for pursuing this idea, and the thoughts have occurred to me as well. I suspect if the demand was there, you'd see some of the more modern 9mm bullets adapted for .38 or .357 use... but the demand just isn't there I guess. The closest things to a modern .38 JHP load to date, IMHO: Winchester 130gr bonded bullet, the 135gr Speer Gold Dot bullet, and the Federal 130gr HST (which seems like a flop, IMHO). I was excited about the HST load when I first heard about it, but the unconventional "wadcutter" style loading seems to have turned some folks off of it, me included. I'd have preferred to see a more conventional HST bullet in .38. The new .38 Punch load seems close. I've not yet been tempted to try it though.

I get why companies don't develop new carry ammo for revolvers. I really do. I'm also very content with XTPs in the .357 as I think they do very well.

I tried earlier this year with XTPs in the .38 hoping to get it up to 1150ish but topped out at 1kfps which I just don't think is fast enough for reliable expansion.

The Winchester and speer bullets seem to be the best bet for the .38 but I just think the .38 has more potential. I'm perfectly content carrying .357s or hardcast swc in a .38 but when I saw these for sale I thought it might be fun to see what I can do.

[WDR]

.38 Special is just, frankly, a marginal cartridge. It works fairly well from service size guns, but snubbys suffer... velocity just isn't there. You can hot-rod .38, but you'll be crossing into Elmer Keith experimental territory. Nothing wrong with that, if you're willing to deal with things like less than perfect neck tension, lack of crimp grooves, odd bore/throat/forcing cone bullet sizing issues etc. That +P+ 147gr Federal HydraShok load came about from a similar process of what we are thinking. It cost +P+ pressures/issues to get there, even with "proper" sized bullets and added cannelures.

It's a 100 year old revolver cartridge, that has been hotrodded before. Nothing wrong with doing that, but I'll be surprised if you find some secret sauce that no one else has. That said... experimenting is fun sometimes. Being able to load your own, the way you want them, is part of the allure of reloading. I totally get it... I have some 147gr HST pulls I bought forever ago, and I have been tempted at times to try exactly what you want to do. I'm not trying to talk you out of it. Rock on man. :cool:

[358156hp]

For some reason I seem to remember that the original Super Vel revlover bullets bullets were .355, with an applied cannelure for crimping, and the samples I've seen showed a pretty deep cannelure, and the bullets I had access to measured about .358 just below the cannelure, and .355ish above it. I always felt the original Super Vel ammo was seriously lacking in accuracy past bad-breath distances, but their performance was quite remarkable for the era. Was that really over 40 years ago?

[willie]

Where better to ask about this then here?
https://americanreloading.com/en/9mm-38-super-380-auto-355-356/3230-9mm-147gr-gold-dot-g2-black-coated-500ct.html
How best should I extrapolate data for a .355 147gr bullet? I think be-86 would be my best bet of what I have to try and reach 1000fps.

1k fps is my goal only because thats what the factory 9mm is loaded to +/-.

I am getting 1000fps with 4" m64 and 950fps with a 4" m10 with a 158gr swc over 5.7 be-86.

In 1970 I did what you are attempting using a different jhp .355 9mm bullet in .38 Spl cases. Pressure will bump up the .355 bullet. I used a 9mm size die to reduce case mouth to provide neck tension and the 9mm expander to flare case mouth slightly. If you lack 9mm dies, experiment by inserting the 9mm bullet into a resized 38 Spl case. If there is sufficient tension to hold bullet in place, run the case into the .38 Spl size die to see if case tension can be increased. If so, you are using this die to taper crimp.

You can achieve velocity goal by using 5 grains of Red Dot. Bum some from a shotgun reloader. I've not used your favorite powder but think it might serve well. In my experiment I used Unique. I had fun.

In the 1960's Lee Jurras of Super-Vel fame put high velocity lightweight handgun bullets on the map. To reduce pressure, he used smaller diameter bullets such as .355 in .38 Spl. The big ammo companies forced him out of business by convincing suppliers not to sell him components.

[jws]

I would be curious to know if there is a way to increase the bullet diameter to get it up to size. Being that it is only a couple thousandths, would it be possible to squish the bullet down slightly in a press or a vice to increase the diameter slightly? Or would it just crush the nose of the bullet? I have never tried it, and it very well may be a bad idea, but not a lot is lost if a couple bullets are destroying trying it.

[03RN]

willie

Thank you. I was thinking that if velocity was enough they might bump up a little.

I actually think that LC brass might be thick enough to give good tension.

[willie]

[QUOTE=jws;1294003]I would be curious to know if there is a way to increase the bullet diameter to get it up to size. Being that it is only a couple thousandths, would it be possible to squish the bullet down slightly in a press or a vice to increase the diameter slightly? Or would it just crush the nose of the bullet? I have never tried it, and it very well may be a bad idea, but not a lot is lost if a couple bullets are destroying trying it.[s/QUOTE]

A custom specialized die can bump up bullets, but these dies are extremely expensive. For us regular guys the answer is no. In bullet swaging such dies are used to form bullet cores from soft lead wire. I know very little about this topic but surmise that reducing a bullet's diameter might be easier than bumping it up. Doing this with a jacketed bullet would indeed be difficult. Most presses available to us can't handle this task. Those that can require reinforcement.

[willie]

willie

Thank you. I was thinking that if velocity was enough they might bump up a little.

I actually think that LC brass might be thick enough to give good tension.

I agree. I still have a few 100 once fired cases from my original experiment. They have very thick walls. When I find them, I will happily donate these so you can experiment. My health is such that I can no longer lift but a few pounds and am trying to hire someone to help me sort through 50 years of stored items. I recently gave away a case of belted machine gun ammo because I got tired of stumbling over it.

[BN]

willie

Thank you. I was thinking that if velocity was enough they might bump up a little.

I actually think that LC brass might be thick enough to give good tension.

I think I used WCC mil brass with a crimped primer. I had my 1050 set to remove the crimp. I also got a little more velocity with the thicker brass.

[willie]

I wanted to add this. The 38 Short case has the same capacity as the 9mm Luger case, and essentially it's a rimmed 9mm. Chopping off .38 Spl cases easily produces these. One can use 9mm data. I never did this but have seen it mentioned from time to time through the years.

[the Schwartz]

Pressure will bump up the .355 bullet.

This was my experience, too. Recovered 90-grain and 115-grain 0.355" bullets (when we could find them) exhibited fully engraved jacket bearing surfaces indicating that there was enough pressure to produce full bore engagement in our ill conceived experiments.

[willie]

Many know that 9mm pistol barrels often have a .357 or 358 bore diameter, but jacketed bullets have a .355 nominal diameter. I think that engineers selected bullets with larger groove diameters to control pressure spikes in this high pressure cartridge. What do our resident engineers say?

[03RN]

So far all fit well in the cases. My Sokol guns throats are tight enough that they stop the bullet from falling through.

I loaded a few up. Hopefully the next day or so I'll get out to Chrono and shoot them.

[Flamingo]

I shot some 9mm Montana Gold 124 grain JHPs in 38 Short Colt brass (I used 5.6 grains of True Blue powder) and got almost the exact same group size at 7 yards as I did with Acme 125 grain coated bullets. The Acme's were .358 when I measured them with my calipers.

81286

81287

[mmc45414]

I am kinda curious about this from the standpoint of making simple practice rounds with the 9mm Blue Bullets I have on hand anyway. Might just go down and slug one through my 686...

[03RN]

38 special
147gr G2 over 6gr be-86
880fps
253 ft lbs

147gr G2 over 5gr win231
887fps
257ft lbs

The be-86 is uncharted waters so I'm unsure if I want to go up. I might try 5.2gr 231.

I'm not looking for magnums just looking for the 9mm rated velocity.

[03RN]

147gr G2 over 5.3gr win231
910fps
270ft lbs

That was in my 4" m19-3 which is a very slow gun. I tested the loads in my m66-8 the other day which is sometimes faster even with it's 2.75" barrel.

Next time out I'll test in a 4" and 2" m10.

No pressure signs.

[03RN]

5.3grs gets 910fps in my 4"m19-3 and 920fps in my 4" m10-10. I was hoping for about 1k so I'd get k with 4" guns and 900 in 2" guns. Not sure where I'm going to go from here.

[Flamingo]

What kind of accuracy are you getting?

[358156hp]

You're looking at the wrong data for your extrapolation. Look at 38 Super data and pressures for inspiration and (hopefully), pressure tested data. The Super case is slightly shorter than 38 Spl, and the pressures are considerably higher in the "+P" versions. Do this at your own risk, but I tried it in 357 revolvers, and while seemingly safe in my guns, YMMV. To get even closer to the Super, you could always trim your 38 Spl cases to 38 Super length, and do your load development from the recommended starting loads until you don't like what you're seeing, or until you get what you want. If this fails, 38-44 data is out there, but I wouldn't expect any K frame or smaller to live very long under those conditions. Pressures would be at .357 mag levels.

I imagine a Redding 38/357 "Profile" crimp die could be very useful for your project.

[03RN]

What kind of accuracy are you getting?

I haven't tested it for accuracy yet

[03RN]

This is a post from arfcom

03RN No BE-86 in GRT.

Interesting results on everything else. I set the top pressure at 22,600 (just barely over +P+) and set the desired fps at 950-1100. Here's what I got:

Accurate #9: 10.16gr at 22549psi. 1053.8fps
Alliant 2400: 10.6gr at 22546psi. 1070.5fps
Hodgdon HS-6: 8.13gr at 22597psi. 1047.0fps
Ramshot Silhouette: 6.41gr at 22562psi 1008.9fps
Accurate #7: 9.65gr at 22603psi. 1068.4fps
Alliant Power Pistol: 7.13gr at 22592psi. 1043fps
Hodgdon Lil Gun: 13.32gr at 22537psi. 1121fps

And finally dryflash's favorite powder, Ramshot True Blue: 7.1gr at 22536psi. 1018fps

Looks like we've got a new contender! Lil Gun coming in at 1121fps and still staying at +P+ pressure. Liking that a LOT! It's a full case at 97% full but a fairly nasty 62% burn. I'm betting the fireball will be impressive.....

ETA - 13.1gr keeps you at +P and GRT is showing 1096fps. 21376psi. I'm thinking (if the simulation is correct) that'll get you 1k out of your 4" in real life numbers. As stated, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

[hollywood63]

Here is one to wet your whistle. Cast a bullet to match you barrel and Look for anything Skeeter wrote

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm

[03RN]

Got 1k 147gr hsts to test out now

[03RN]

The HSTs are pretty too.
85968

I'm going to have to try out some different powders to get faster than 1100fps in the magnums though.
85969

[Brian T]

I agree. I still have a few 100 once fired cases from my original experiment. They have very thick walls. When I find them, I will happily donate these so you can experiment. My health is such that I can no longer lift but a few pounds and am trying to hire someone to help me sort through 50 years of stored items. I recently gave away a case of belted machine gun ammo because I got tired of stumbling over it.

willie,

Where in The Republic are ya? In between railroad phonecalls I have quite a bit of free time. Normally that free time is spent worrying, so if you're semi-close by maybe we can help each other out. I'll help you sort, you keep my mind from worrying.

[Brian T]

Since I doubt my backorder of 135gr+P Speer GDHPs will be fulfilled anytime soon, I'm interested in this project as well. I have 1,000 147gr HST pulls as well. Seeing as the HST is a fairly tough bullet, I was hoping maybe I can load these in some once-fired Remington .38special+P nickeled brass I have cleaned and stashed. I'd like to get 900fps from a 3" M64-6.

[willie]

willie,

Where in The Republic are ya? In between railroad phonecalls I have quite a bit of free time. Normally that free time is spent worrying, so if you're semi-close by maybe we can help each other out. I'll help you sort, you keep my mind from worrying.

I'm alive and(well?)in Waco. Most of the sorting has been done. Next week a gentleman from Arlington will pick up 2000 lbs of wheel weights and linotype plus whatever else he might want. In 50 years I seldom discarded anything. Feel free to contact me.

[03RN]

16gr Ramshot enforcer gets them to 1250 in a 4". Not as good as the shooters world heavy but it's what I got.

I also just picked up 1k primed unfired cases for a song so I'm going to load up a batch and set it back.

[03RN]

94497
That's about as good as I can shoot at 25yards

[Dan Carey]

The land height from the bore measurement will give you a reasonable idea if the bullet will have bullet slippage and/or bullet yaw. When you fire the round it all happens so fast you seldom realize pressure blow by.

[Exiledviking]

What about using a .356 Hornady HAP bullet it a .357 Mag? I figured it's better to ask here than start a new thread.

I have close to 2K of the 125 gr Hornady .356 HAP bullets and I was thinking they might work in a .357 Mag revolver? I'd buy a Lee Collet-Style Crimp Die in .357 Magnum to try to get a good crimp onto the bullet.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[revchuck38]

What about using a .356 Hornady HAP bullet it a .357 Mag? I figured it's better to ask here than start a new thread.

I have close to 2K of the 125 gr Hornady .356 HAP bullets and I was thinking they might work in a .357 Mag revolver? I'd buy a Lee Collet-Style Crimp Die in .357 Magnum to try to get a good crimp onto the bullet.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Rather than the collet crimp die, I'd go with seating the bullet just deeply enough to roll crimp in front of it. You'd have to slightly reduce the powder charge if you go this route. I'd also go with a 9mm expander rather than one for .38/.357.

[willie]

As advantage of the Lee collet die is that it will create more than enough case tension to prevent bullet set back. Lee's factory crimp die would do the same thing and might be better though I can't explain why. You may not need an expander. If you want to spend a very few dollars, buy the Lee Universal Expander. It will create a small funnel type lip on case mouth and will not expand the case. This approach permits saving existing case tension.

50 years ago I shot .355 9mm out of .38 Spl cases and used various tricks to create neck tension. I used stupid charges of Unique, and today I'm thankful that I have all my fingers. Am I the only guy here who has blown up a handgun?

[revchuck38]

I'm wondering if a .38 Super sizer die would work with .38/.357 brass. That, with the 9mm expander, would take care of the neck tension issue.

[willie]

I suggest resizing the case in a 38/357 die first. I then used a steel 9mm size die which was tapered like the 9mm case. A sized case would enter far enough to reduce mouth diameter. I'm not certain that a 9mm carbide die would work-- no taper in carbide ring. I got by without expanding case mouth since I was using a jacketed bullet.

With proper adjusting the op can use the Lee Collet Die to reduce case mouth diameter slightly before seating bullet. Then use it to crimp. Now that I think about, I recommend buying the collet die which can do both--size mouth and crimp. Factory crimp die won't size mouth(slightly too big). We are making stuff do different jobs here. Collet die will work for both.

The op can make this work but the effort may be a cumbersome endeavor and may or may not produce accurate ammo.

[358156hp]

I suggest resizing the case in a 38/357 die first. I then used a steel 9mm size die which was tapered like the 9mm case. A sized case would enter far enough to reduce mouth diameter. I'm not certain that a 9mm carbide die would work-- no taper in carbide ring. I got by without expanding case mouth since I was using a jacketed bullet.

With proper adjusting the op can use the Lee Collet Die to reduce case mouth diameter slightly before seating bullet. Then use it to crimp. Now that I think about, I recommend buying the collet die which can do both--size mouth and crimp. Factory crimp die won't size mouth(slightly too big). We are making stuff do different jobs here. Collet die will work for both.

The op can make this work but the effort may be a cumbersome endeavor and may or may not produce accurate ammo.

Most carbide sizing dies tend to leave the cases sized smaller than nominal dimensions anyway. Except for cowboy dies of course. I know I have an old Hornady Durachrome 38/357 carbide sizing die that really squeezes the cases down. I also have a 9mm Durachrome carbide sizer that's really tight as well. I wonder how tight Reddings dual sizing dies are.