Leg Locks don't work

[45dotACP]

Alright, clickbait is out of the way. But not really.

I figured I'd throw up the bat signal to guys like Cecil and our other Martial Arts enthusiasts about the sometimes controversial subject of leg locks.

A number of MMA fighters and even BJJ competitors do not play a leg lock game. I think even MMA fighter Vinny Magalhaes once famously said "Leglocks don't work" (before he subsequently had his leg broken by Australian BJJ player Craig Jones) and his opinion isn't by any means uncommon. I'd heard that some guys would not tap to leg locks whatsoever (which seems risky to me) because they'd always been viewed as a "dirty" technique.

Nevertheless, the inside heel hook is possibly one of the most devastating joint locks in the sport of BJJ in that you can totally twist a persons knee to the point of rupture of multiple ligaments. You can quite literally cripple someone for life with a heel hook in a way that is only possible in few other submissions.

The potential for damage/injury aside, I'm interested in looking at leg locks from a defensive standpoint. I tend to see them as the "anti-grappling" solution. They seem to have evolved for the purpose of and been popularized by submission only grappling tournaments, and especially by guard players, who tend to not play as much wrestling/judo.

You still do occasionally see them in MMA fights, where ostensibly you must deal with getting punched in the head and some guys have used them to varying degrees of success such as Rousimar Palhares, Ryan Hall and I seem to recall Beneil Dariush basically breaking Tony Ferguson's leg with one.

Nevertheless, you must deal with strikes in a real fight and if you're talking about a very serious situation where weapons can be involved, you really REALLY need to be careful of letting your opponents have free access to both of their hands.

To me, leg locks in a weapons based environment sound dangerous, and leg locks for anything not rising the the need to cripple or maim someone seem like a difficult position to defend legally.

So my opinion is actually...yeah...leglocks don't work. They're incredibly useful in competition, and can be used to set up passes, sweeps etc and often you find them from half guard, butterfly guard, and especially against a much larger opponent and if you play competition BJJ, then at a certain point you will need to learn how to recognize and defend them, but if you're playing BJJ as a supplement to a strategy of self defense, then leg locks are probably of limited value.

That said, I do love me a good leg lock while playing the sport of BJJ.

[Sal Picante]

My take on it?

"When the system has failed" ... "Fuck it. Try a leg lock."

;)

[45dotACP]

My take on it?

"When the system has failed" ... "Fuck it. Try a leg lock."

;)No lie, I have been leglocking fools left and right lately. And not even good leglocks either.

Like calf slicers bro. The most trash submission.

(Glad you've survived the cervezavirus BTW.)

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[rd62]

Is it trash if it works?

[Cecil Burch]

In the past Leg locks tended to be looked down upon in the BJJ community. Historically, there are three reasons this was so.

1) They were seen as cheap because they generally only were used when nothing else better could be done. When someone could not pass guard, or stay on top, or finish from the top, leg locks were the answer. It was a mark of someone who was not that good at jujitsu.

2) They cause a lot of needless injury in training. Leg locks are mostly applied against the knees and ankles, which are much weaker in construction than other body parts, and there is a much narrower window of the start of the submission to the point of injury. With a kimura for example, unless there is some underlying physical condition, most people can take a lot of movement and articulation before things tear and break. With the knee especially, only a very tiny range of movement can blow out the ACL and leave someone needing surgery and long recovery.

3) Until recently, they were more of an “add on” to jujitsu, and therefore there was a lack of congruence with those attacks versus the typical BJJ offense. In other words, with most proven attacks like a straight armbar or a rear naked choke, it came out of positional dominance. With leg locks, they more generally were sudden moves that either worked spectacularly, or failed miserable because they were not positional based. That has changed over the last few years, mostly through the work of the “Danaher Death Squad” and the Renzo Gracie gyms, but it was true for most of the past.

These issues with leg locks do matter for self-defense as well. Obviously the injury part is important. None of us can afford to be on crutches for six months because we needed ligament reconstruction after a session of drilling leg attacks. And that idea of them not being integrated into the conceptual matrix of “position before submission” is key because while if it fails in competition or training, it is just an ego crush, but for self-defense it could be your life.

But along with those concerns, there are two other problems that need to be taken into account with leg locks when we are dealing with the self-preservation idea.

The most pressing is that to do almost any reliable leg lock you need to use both your arms to control and attack the legs. But when you do so, that leaves your opponent’s arms to be completely free to do whatever he wants to include defending and countering your leg attack, as well as striking, or the crucial part that he can deploy and use a weapon. We don’t see leg locks in MMA to the extent that we do in grappling only matches because just adding the striking component makes it more complex and difficult. Just imagine how much worse it could be if the person getting locked could pull a gun, knife, etc.

The other problem is sort of a corollary to the above paragraph. While leg locks can be extremely painful and can sap the will to fight from someone (as someone who has been injured by leg locks, I can tell you there was not much I wanted to do afterwards but hold my knee and try not to scream), you are relying on a lot of pain to end the fight rather than damage. Yes, having your knee blown out can end the fight, but since you are already on the ground, and it does not affect the arms, if the other person can overcome the pain they are still capable of fighting at a high level. That is not so true with arm attacks since turning a two armed fighter into a single arm one can be a good way to diminish their capacity to continue, and it is obviously not true at all with chokes and unconsciousness. And some leg attacks don’t even cause injury but are pure pain compliance, such as calf crushers.

Neither of those two issues should completely preclude the use of leg locks, but they need to be understood and addressed. Understand when they should be used, and when they should not. I would also not make it a priority for people under purple belt level. I think the normal focus on positional dominance and limb control, as well as high percentage fight finishers like chokes should be the main focus until the student is at least with a few stripes on his blue belt.

All aspects of BJJ should be trained to some level, but that does not mean that each aspect is equal in efficacy.

[Sal Picante]

Is it trash if it works?

Touché

That said, there is danger in not controlling the waist for what we do and are training for.

I like the ashi-salami game a lot and have been digging into it deep, but it is kinda like open guns for me, man... Fun, interesting, but, not the original game I signed up for.

[SouthNarc]

I've had some interesting leg lock positions come out in ECQC evolutions by good jiu-jitsu players. One of the most notable was Chris Woomer who used an outside knee reap to achieve IFWA and mag dump about 6 sims into a dude's butthole.

The outside Ashi Garami variants also do a good job of jamming an adversary's weapons into the waist with one's feet and allowing access to your waist with one's hands.

These are niche' postions and don't come out frequently however it has happened enough in course work in live evolutions that it's something that shouldn't be dismissed at all.

Here's Wooomer's evolution from ECQC last year.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBrkDofpxnr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[45dotACP]

I've had some interesting leg lock positions come out in ECQC evolutions by good jiu-jitsu players. One of the most notable was Chris Woomer who used an outside knee reap to achieve IFWA and mag dump about 6 sims into a dude's butthole.

The outside Ashi Garami variants also do a good job of jamming an adversary's weapons into the waist with one's feet and allowing access to your waist with one's hands.

These are niche' postions and don't come out frequently however it has happened enough in course work in live evolutions that it's something that shouldn't be dismissed at all.

Here's Wooomer's evolution from ECQC last year.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBrkDofpxnr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_linkThat looked interesting, especially because of the traditional IWB position... probably would have worked appendix as well, but that side control-->Half Guard--->ashi garami is a transition I've been working on a lot lately...especially against bigger dudes.

I don't know who Chris Woomer is, but he's clearly got some solid Jiu Jitsu chops. 6 rounds in the butthole is nothing to sneeze at.

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[Totem Polar]

Here's Wooomer's evolution from ECQC last year.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBrkDofpxnr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Well executed.


:cool:

[ford.304]

I liked Ryan Hall's approach in his most recent 50/50 instructional -- there is a heavy emphasis on not letting them get close enough to punch you in the face while you're sitting there digging for a heel hook. He also puts a heavy emphasis on keeping pressure such that your opponent either needs to keep his hands on the mat or he's going to faceplant -- that seems less ideal than double wrist control, but still a relevant consideration in a weapons based environment.

I think one other aspect of heel hooks in self defense is the same reason they are/were seen as "bad" or "dangerous" in the gym -- there isn't as big of an "this hurts, so I want to stop" factor before you do damage. If I get a heel hook on someone who doesn't train and I *don't* want to actually rip their knee apart, I'm going to have to explain them what's going to happen if I finish it (I've seen video of this working once... but man, it took some explaining). If I have a kimura grip I can just pull on it a little and they get my point. I've also seen too many guys tough their way out of toe holds in competition to think someone who is serious about doing harm is going to care.

I'm on board with the "use the positions for sweep/pass" line of thinking for self defense. Leg entanglement entries from mount or back escapes are some of my strongest positional escapes. But I'm not diving after something if they're already on the ground.

[Sal Picante]

I think one other aspect of heel hooks in self defense is the same reason they are/were seen as "bad" or "dangerous" in the gym -- there isn't as big of an "this hurts, so I want to stop" factor before you do damage. If I get a heel hook on someone who doesn't train and I *don't* want to actually rip their knee apart, I'm going to have to explain them what's going to happen if I finish it (I've seen video of this working once... but man, it took some explaining). If I have a kimura grip I can just pull on it a little and they get my point. I've also seen too many guys tough their way out of toe holds in competition to think someone who is serious about doing harm is going to care.


We had issues in the gym recently: blue belt with decent enough BJJ was just ankle locking and heel hooking with too much intent on lower blue belt and white belts. Coach had a talk, chewed him out, etc. He was on thin ice.

He's gotten better about stuff, but we only let him roll with upper belts now, mostly so he can learn defense/manage ego.

[45dotACP]

https://youtu.be/TG_x9ibmIl4

I feel like this clip is relevant. You can be Garry Tonon, one of the best leglock artists in the world, and a guy like Than Le (who is a brown belt under Ryan Hall) with the knowledge to defend and serious knockout power, can clip you pretty badly.

It probably doesn't change the fact that I still like to train some leg locks and leg entanglements. As a way of getting to a better position when you have an opponent standing over you, I think leg entangling guards like Single Leg X, X guard etc, have some value. I guess the ones I'd probably desperately avoid in a situation involving strikes would be a lot of the stuff like De La Riva guard, K guard or the Reverse DLR, which seem to involve a lot of inverting at the highest levels anyways.

[Mitch]

Garry’s a bad dude, he just really made one mistake there that cost him the fight. If he would have gotten Le’s hips on the ground prior to going for the break, that fight may have gone another way. Palhares basically made a career of pulling guard and going for a reap for heel exposure, but he was so massive, strong, and turned so hard into the reap that his opponent had to follow his hips and that put them on the ground. From there it’s harder to defend and you can’t drop bombs like when you’re standing over someone.

Position before submission. Even with the dark art of leg locks.

[45dotACP]

Garry’s a bad dude, he just really made one mistake there that cost him the fight. If he would have gotten Le’s hips on the ground prior to going for the break, that fight may have gone another way. Palhares basically made a career of pulling guard and going for a reap for heel exposure, but he was so massive, strong, and turned so hard into the reap that his opponent had to follow his hips and that put them on the ground. From there it’s harder to defend and you can’t drop bombs like when you’re standing over someone.

Position before submission. Even with the dark art of leg locks.Quoted for truth. Can't cheat the gods of position. It's why you really don't see a lot of those goof ass bottom side control submissions in MMA fights :D

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[45dotACP]

Just reviving this thread to further point out...

You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.





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[Hstanton1]

Just reviving this thread to further point out...

You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.


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I’ve been getting back into BJJ over the last 6-8 months after about 5 years off, and I’ve been absolutely loving the concept of “pinning” people as part of passing/gaining position/submitting. I’ve got a judo and wrestling background, and am just now starting to conceptualize the idea of pinning someone’s hips while passing half guard, or pinning the head/shoulders while transitioning from a position like reverse scarf hold into north south.

I guess the concept of position before submission is really starting to sink in for me.

[RevolverRob]

Just reviving this thread to further point out...

You can utterly destroy a limb or joint without ending the fight.

https://youtu.be/DroK_yRvLH8

Mikey pretty much ruined this dude's leg. Something like a torn meniscus, torn ACL, torn LCL and broken ankle. It's likely this guy will need 12 months to fully recover, yet he didn't tap.

I'm a big fan of wrestling control or strangles for self defense. Fully disabling someone for punching me strikes me as a huge overreaction.


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I watched this fight real time and the Mongolian dude should have tapped to save his leg. But what it told me, quickly, about the whole thing is, you can't count on disabling a limb to take the fight out of a dedicated opponent (we should have all known this). That guy fought back for basically 10 minutes. Ten minutes in a fight is a lifetime anywhere outside of a ring. If Mikey had let that guy up and they had gone back to standing, he probably would have limped his way around the ring and continued to grapple until a choke was successful.

[45dotACP]

I watched this fight real time and the Mongolian dude should have tapped to save his leg. But what it told me, quickly, about the whole thing is, you can't count on disabling a limb to take the fight out of a dedicated opponent (we should have all known this). That guy fought back for basically 10 minutes. Ten minutes in a fight is a lifetime anywhere outside of a ring. If Mikey had let that guy up and they had gone back to standing, he probably would have limped his way around the ring and continued to grapple until a choke was successful.Absolutely.

Like if this is a situation where serious damage is warranted, I can understand wrecking every limb on your way to the neck...after all they'll have a hard time fighting a stand up game with multiple debilitating injuries...

But what situation is actually gonna warrant that?

I like single leg x guard quite a bit when strikes are involved and Craig Douglas showed a very cool use of a leg reap for armed defense earlier in this thread...but ruining someone's leg like that in self defense had better have a real strong justification that is either lethal force or damned close...because putting someone in crutches for a year ain't gonna look great to a jury at my trial for aggravated assault.

Am I way off base here in thinking that wrestling and boxing (and really like a handful of BJJ techniques) are really The Answer for self defense?

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[JohnVee]

Every technique is a means to an end. "How this (technique, training method, tool, etc.) fits into the likely set of tactical situations I'll find myself in" is a much more relevant question to ask yourself to evaluate things.

EDIT; A submission is a concession that happens among friends. Disabling that limb is what happens to your enemies. A break is an effective means to compel concession, but that is not guaranteed.

My $0.00002

[RevolverRob]

Absolutely.

Like if this is a situation where serious damage is warranted, I can understand wrecking every limb on your way to the neck...after all they'll have a hard time fighting a stand up game with multiple debilitating injuries...

But what situation is actually gonna warrant that?

I like single leg x guard quite a bit when strikes are involved and Craig Douglas showed a very cool use of a leg reap for armed defense earlier in this thread...but ruining someone's leg like that in self defense had better have a real strong justification that is either lethal force or damned close...because putting someone in crutches for a year ain't gonna look great to a jury at my trial for aggravated assault.

Am I way off base here in thinking that wrestling and boxing (and really like a handful of BJJ techniques) are really The Answer for self defense?

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Spitballing and it might be relevant it might not, I could argue it both ways.

Your particular employment gives you some insight into how debilitating an injury like destroying a meniscus, ACL, LCL, and ankle might be in the long term.

But that same kind of expertise is what would have you removed from being a juror at a trial for aggravated assault.

In other words, I -think- your expertise colors your view here. So, I'd bear that in mind.

Because we also both know without imaging and an informed medical opinion, you can't know how hard you hurt that guy you put in a leg lock on the street. You might have a sense of it, you know how bad/debilitating it could be, you might know how bad it is - after the fact. But when you have homey wrapped up in a leg lock, at a Green Line L-Station after taking the Missus to the see the Opera, and homey tried to stick you with a dirty needle - you can't be worried about, "Will this dude walk after this?"

Because that dude made his decisions that led him up to that point. Then he demanded your input on his overall decision making. I would argue you're both not at liberty to deny him that input and not at liberty to limit your input to be only constructive criticism.

As to why you might have him in a leglock vs armbar or choke - you play the hand you're dealt and maybe that means putting him in a leg lock and holding him there until PD shows up is the best you've got.

Wrestling, Boxing, and Jits in combo is definitely probably "the" solution. And there is no coincidence that you'll find elements of all three in the Shivworks curriculum.



EDIT; A submission is a concession that happens among friends. Disabling that limb is what happens to your enemies. A break is an effective means to compel concession, but that is not guaranteed.

My $0.00002

I like this thought. I think it's really good to draw that distinction.

[MGW]

I could start a new thread but I think this fits here. The Thai Clinch doesn’t work either. I haven’t rolled much over the last year because of a back issue. I went to class Monday and there are several new guys now. I swear everyone in class wants to default to standing Thai Clinch for control. I guess I need to buy a trainer pointy stabby thing and put an end to it.

[RevolverRob]

I could start a new thread but I think this fits here. The Thai Clinch doesn’t work either. I haven’t rolled much over the last year because of a back issue. I went to class Monday and there are several new guys now. I swear everyone in class wants to default to standing Thai Clinch for control. I guess I need to buy a trainer pointy stabby thing and put an end to it.

By Thai clinch - I assume you're saying starting with a double collar tie?

The single collar tie used to deliver a couple of accurate head shots can pretty effective as a fight ender...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cnus0vvpaMF/?igshid=MWI4MTIyMDE=

[MGW]

By Thai clinch - I assume you're saying starting with a double collar tie?

The single collar tie used to deliver a couple of accurate head shots can pretty effective as a fight ender...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cnus0vvpaMF/?igshid=MWI4MTIyMDE=

I don't disagree with you but, if they are already standing and he does a single or double collar tie, does he even see the scissors come into play?

[Risto]

I saw a video interview with the ONE FC owner where he mentioned it was a catastrophic injury similar to a motorcycle wreck. All ligaments torn and meniscus and broken ankle. Lower leg is basically free from thigh, muscles only left. Full leg cast. Ouch!
I would imagine you could basically walk away from this guy and he wouldn’t be able to catch you.

I agree with 45dotACP reference the escalation of use of force and bodily damage but everything is so situational and contextual. In some states choking someone unconscious elevates it to felony assault. Intent, training, experience, and perception may all play a role in the aftermath.

My beat mate basically got in boxing match with a multiple time felon who he on-viewed attempting to commit a GLA. (Long story short lots of mistakes were made etc,etc). Basically my buddy thought he was doing OK until he got knocked out. Shitbird tried to take his gun but the retention holster and a random vagrant stopped him.

I took Cecils class a few years ago and it was a good practical way to kind of work though(think through) the force escalations (or perhaps more importantly non-escalation). It is one of the main things i brought back to my own training ie Not knowing if the training partner has any weapons and making sure they frequently don’t and vice verca.

Also good practice to talk through some of the training rounds after. Can you explain why you shot your training partner when he was unarmed? Did he know you had a gun this round? Was he actually trying to get away from you but couldn't get out from under you? Both persons intentions and perceptions? Etc.

I would love to take ECQC just to hear the lecture and thoughts on this part of it.

[RevolverRob]

I don't disagree with you but, if they are already standing and he does a single or double collar tie, does he even see the scissors come into play?

I agree, that he didn't need to stand up and put the guy in the clinch, for compliance or anything else.

I am more thinking of going for a tie up and delivering two quick, accurate, power shots to the face ended the encounter. His justification for doing so, once those scissors is out, is really firm. Though, once a guy stands, postures, grooms, starts digging in his pockets and gives you all sorts of pre-assault cues my fight or flight plans are in motion.

FWIW and a bit of a non-sequitur - this is why I advise and prefer standing on public transit. When 75% of the people are sitting, you get a distinct height advantage by standing. You also have a mobility advantage. I've probably thought about this more than your average bear due to 1) Riding public transit in Chicago. 2) Having narrowly avoided getting into a full blown fight on a moving train in Germany once.

[perlslacker]

To the thread's topic, I was thinking about joint locks vs chokes in a self defense context recently and I thought of Tony Ferguson.

3 of Tony's last 4 fights:

1. Charles Oliveira armbars Tony and breaks his arm. Tony somehow finishes the fight to lose a decision.
2. Beneil Dariush heelhooks Tony and royally messes up his knee. Tony somehow finishes the fight to lose a decision.
3. Nate Diaz guillotines Tony. Tony taps.

It doesn't matter how tough someone is if their brain shuts off.

[45dotACP]

It sort of makes me think of a different fight at ONE FC. The mixed rules bout between Muay Thai phenom Rodtang and MMA GOAT Demetrious Johnson ended in the 2nd round with a "technical submission" meaning Rodtang was literally put to sleep by strangle...there was no tap. Mighty Mouse put the choke on and Rodtang went out on his shield.

I don't know if he's been knocked out ever, but that dude has a chin like a firehardened walnut and very clearly, he was never going to tap. To anything.

That's why I'm a fan of strangles for self defense. Yeah you could try to hold him down, you could try to stand and trade with him....but trading with him would be like punching a brick wall that punches back, and trying to hold him down would be exhausting. But put a strangle on a Muay Thai world champ, and he's just another human. He goes to sleep all the same.

The only way to get to the strangle is by being the one to control where the fight goes and where it stays (wrestling). But all of that, to me, is a delivery system for gettin that neck.

Now theoretically, BJJ should have the same takedowns as wrestling or Judo, so I guess if you're doing BJJ that way, that's not a problem. But most BJJ guys don't practice takedowns nearly enough (myself included) and many look for guard pulls.

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[RevolverRob]

Was just icing my sore ankle and thinking about this. This morning I'm rolling with my buddy. And I gave up, rather easily, a kimura. One I am still figuring out how to defend that. But even still I really wasn't thinking about defending it. Instead, what I was thinking about was he wasn't applying enough downward pressure on my hips. Which let me hip lift him to the ceiling as a check on him. Then I was thinking how he is two-on-oneing my left arm and applying some pressure, but not enough to stop me. I found myself thinking if I had a knife, I could have stitched him up his left side like a sewing machine. He finally dropped in enough weight to the kimura I tapped. But it took a moment and I had plenty of time to think about it. The challenge of course is in the jits gym we aren't stabbing each other. So, I have to try to adjust my mindset a bit from viewing wrestling and jits as basically being: contact weapon delivery and escape systems to martial arts.

--

In Roll #2 I'm against a brown belt. He breaks my guard and I try to hip escape away, but in doing so give up side control and my collar. Boom his hip is in my diaphragm and my collar goes tight. Next thing I know I'm tapping because there seems to be a lack of blood flow to my brain. I had almost no time to think much except, "Ahh man, I fucked up."

--

Funny that no oxygen/blood thing really seems to shorten your thinking time re: the problem at hand.

[ford.304]

Was just icing my sore ankle and thinking about this. This morning I'm rolling with my buddy. And I gave up, rather easily, a kimura. One I am still figuring out how to defend that. But even still I really wasn't thinking about defending it. Instead, what I was thinking about was he wasn't applying enough downward pressure on my hips. Which let me hip lift him to the ceiling as a check on him. Then I was thinking how he is two-on-oneing my left arm and applying some pressure, but not enough to stop me. I found myself thinking if I had a knife, I could have stitched him up his left side like a sewing machine. He finally dropped in enough weight to the kimura I tapped. But it took a moment and I had plenty of time to think about it. The challenge of course is in the jits gym we aren't stabbing each other. So, I have to try to adjust my mindset a bit from viewing wrestling and jits as basically being: contact weapon delivery and escape systems to martial arts.

--

In Roll #2 I'm against a brown belt. He breaks my guard and I try to hip escape away, but in doing so give up side control and my collar. Boom his hip is in my diaphragm and my collar goes tight. Next thing I know I'm tapping because there seems to be a lack of blood flow to my brain. I had almost no time to think much except, "Ahh man, I fucked up."

--

Funny that no oxygen/blood thing really seems to shorten your thinking time re: the problem at hand.

Of course, you have to take some of that with a grain of salt -- good enough control on a kimura or americana to cleanly finish a training partner is very different from "grab this and rip it as hard as you can." Had a friend get his arm broken at competition learning the difference -- he was getting ready to tap even when the guy just ripped it.

Agree 100% on control, pressure, and chokes, though. My favorite moves are the ones that combine all three.

[45dotACP]

Of course, you have to take some of that with a grain of salt -- good enough control on a kimura or americana to cleanly finish a training partner is very different from "grab this and rip it as hard as you can." Had a friend get his arm broken at competition learning the difference -- he was getting ready to tap even when the guy just ripped it.

Agree 100% on control, pressure, and chokes, though. My favorite moves are the ones that combine all three.Yeeesh...there's a pretty big reason I don't compete a lot.

It's always ADCC to someone, and you never know if you just drew the 35 year old purple belt who is on TRT and will happily explode your shoulder for a 5 dollar medal.

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[perlslacker]

Yeeesh...there's a pretty big reason I don't compete a lot.

It's always ADCC to someone, and you never know if you just drew the 35 year old purple belt who is on TRT and will happily explode your shoulder for a 5 dollar medal.

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Damn, are purple belts in their mid-30s really getting on TRT?

It didn't even occur to me to do that. May have to talk to my doctor.

[45dotACP]

Damn, are purple belts in their mid-30s really getting on TRT?

It didn't even occur to me to do that. May have to talk to my doctor.Well not replacement...but yeah.

I think it was the IBJJF pans that recently took place that had steroid testing implemented and more than a few division champs weren't at the podium for photos because they heard they had to take a piss test.

The sport is legitimately filthy at most competitive levels, and that filters down from the top, even to the local stuff.

But even without the gear, some dudes will just wreck your shit for free in competition. I think there was recently a 16 year old kid who was given the moniker "the adult slayer" because he'd compete in adult divisions and would lock in a heel hook and immediately apply breaking pressure.

This is not to dissuade you from competing. I still do and still think it's a great, but do so with the knowledge that you shouldn't expect your opponent to wait for you to tap once he gets grips.

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[LittleLebowski]

Gruesome.

https://www.mmanews.com/news/watch-one-set-for-long-recovery-after-not-tapping-to-leglock-2


I continued to apply breaking pressure on his leg about 8 minutes straight, but my opponent unfortunately would not tap," Musumeci wrote. "This resulted in us seeing how damaging these leg locks can be. Always important to tap so you avoid surgery and a year recovery. FYI this was the most disgusting feeling ever. I literally felt every part of his knee rip like cardboard

https://twitter.com/ONEChampionship/status/1614109583496351746

[RevolverRob]

Gruesome.

https://www.mmanews.com/news/watch-one-set-for-long-recovery-after-not-tapping-to-leglock-2



https://twitter.com/ONEChampionship/status/1614109583496351746

Yea I watched that fight live on broadcast. And that Mongolian dude should have tapped. He ruined his knee and probably the rest of his fighting career, by being stubborn.

___

To add to the general idea of the thread in considering things that 'do and don't work' in a broad sense.

One reason to work arm and leg submissions (and wrist and ankle locks, like the cheap bastard you are! :eek:) is to remember we want to control any and all parts our opponents give us.

Or put simply: Position before submission.

While we all have our favored ways of solving problems, we have to remember that grappling is a positional game. He with the dominant position...and some luck...wins the day. In the gym, we may work our way to our favorite positions slowly, methodically even. But on the street, we want to work our way to the best position we can, in the shortest possible time, and execute whatever finish we can as soon as we can.

If your control position has you leg or ankle locking someone - oh well and crank that bitch down and break it. Not a lot of people can run on a broken ankle.

That all said, my observance has been anyone who is comfortable getting to and working from the mount often wins. Because a high mount let's you control your opponent well and then use your tools as you want.

[45dotACP]

Gruesome.

https://www.mmanews.com/news/watch-one-set-for-long-recovery-after-not-tapping-to-leglock-2



https://twitter.com/ONEChampionship/status/1614109583496351746

Yeah...that one was gross. The thing is tho...he didn't tap.

I'm well aware that the dude may never walk again, but this just emphasizes to me again and again why I will almost always prefer chokes.

Case in point, a dude named Mokaev (sp?) on the pre-lims of the most recent UFC card had his knee bent backwards in a knee bar, very probably destroying his ACL and guaranteeing a long, painful and expensive recovery, and he refused to tap and instead won the fight by RNC.

I do still really appreciate the leg lock positions as excellent sweeping/standing positions however. I love using a single leg X as a sweep, or elevating into the saddle. Excellent ways of getting off your back.

My understanding of BJJ has been dramatically altered as of late, having watched an instructional called "Power Bottom" by Craig Jones and I'm probably going to try to incorporate more of that style of guard where "If you can wrestle up, do it, if you can stand up, do it, and if you can turtle up, do it." and start to play my game based on the idea that it is generally better to be on top.

I'm sure leg locks still play a role in this...just not sure exactly what role that is.

[pointfiveoh]

Just stand up is my favorite defense right now. I'm working my way through make z guard great again and picking up some fun tips.

Would you recommend power bottom?

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[45dotACP]

Just stand up is my favorite defense right now. I'm working my way through make z guard great again and picking up some fun tips.

Would you recommend power bottom?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

So, Z guard is my shit. I loved that one...especially now that I'm exploring the choi bar as a response to when I try to get to SLX or saddle and get crossfaced. But I'm also super ghey for half guard.

Not sure whether Just Stand Up is all that similar (it seems like defense or escape yeah?) But I can't recommend Power Bottom enough. It's excellent if you're looking for a way to attack off your back in ways that BJJ doesn’t traditionally teach.

I really do think Craig may end up changing the way we look at BJJ in much the same way John Danaher did with leg locks.



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[perlslacker]

Ryan Hall said something in one of his recent instructionals (I think Modern Half Guard?) that was similar to what Craig says at the start of Power Bottom. Basically that a lot of BJJ practitioners don't bother to try to get to their feet from guard at all, and they should because top players don't expect it. And that you can fight a lot of sweeps by...just not conceding the sweep.

I think quite a few BJJ folks have come to this conclusion, and it's interesting to watch strategies change. I've personally found that standing up from guard if someone isn't really pressuring me tends to confuse and frustrate the top player.

[ford.304]

Oooh, man. My first white belt competition, my opponent was clearly better on his feet than I was. Took me down, I escaped, we stood back up. Repeat x3, then I finally ended up in his closed guard. Not usually a good position, but "OH MAN, I CAN FINALLY PLAY JIU JITSU I KNOW!"

We'd gone out of bounds, ref moves us back to the middle, starts us up... and the guy just scoots back and stands back up again. I just wanted to scream for mom because he was breaking the rules, lol.

Needless to say I did not win and also I am trying to practice a lot more stand up now. Nothing makes me grumpier than when people just concede bottom turtle when the other guy isn't pressuring anything.

[45dotACP]

Ryan Hall said something in one of his recent instructionals (I think Modern Half Guard?) that was similar to what Craig says at the start of Power Bottom. Basically that a lot of BJJ practitioners don't bother to try to get to their feet from guard at all, and they should because top players don't expect it. And that you can fight a lot of sweeps by...just not conceding the sweep.

I think quite a few BJJ folks have come to this conclusion, and it's interesting to watch strategies change. I've personally found that standing up from guard if someone isn't really pressuring me tends to confuse and frustrate the top player.Yeah, it's even better when you just wrestle up.

It's the unholiest BJJ strategy, but when you're seated, they are standing, and they have their head higher than yours? I've tried it. It's really that easy. You can hit the sloppiest double. You can literally drive your forehead into their chest and grab their knees, or hit some type of single. It's hilarious how well it works.

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[Cecil Burch]

For the past 20 years I have taught that your basic guard strategy is to always threaten a sweep, submission, strike, or standup constantly. If you are playing in a way that you can't at all times have at least a reasonable shot at all four, then you are misunderstanding guard.

Most of that comes from not understanding the fundamental principle of ALWAYS maximizing your control while minimizing his control.

[RevolverRob]

I've already found guys are 100% not expecting me to get to my knees and then stand up. I like doing it in general, I work better from standing. A lot of folks aren't working on their takedown game and thus have no idea what to do if I stand up. I love starting from standing for the same reason, guys don't know what to do*. I am really in my element in terms of stuffing takedowns and executing my own against lower level guys. It's a nice ego boost from usually getting destroyed.

My coach, seeing my ability to stay standing, is mean. He now only lets me start standing with brown belts or purple belts who are competing regularly. Suffice to say, my success rate at stuffing takedowns has now been...taken down.

Though if he wants to be mean to a white or blue belt he makes them start standing against me. I guess I'm weapon in an arsenal now...:confused: :rolleyes:

*I've found white and blue belts tend to just pull guard. That's what they know how to do and can do it decently well. But since my discovery of the Ezekiel choke from the top while in guard I've already made the guard pullers irritated with me. :confused: :eek:

[45dotACP]

For the past 20 years I have taught that your basic guard strategy is to always threaten a sweep, submission, strike, or standup constantly. If you are playing in a way that you can't at all times have at least a reasonable shot at all four, then you are misunderstanding guard.

Most of that comes from not understanding the fundamental principle of ALWAYS maximizing your control while minimizing his control.It is my feeling that a lot of what's coming to BJJ might actually be an emphasis on wrestling up instead of trying to get in on leglocks.

I may be wrong, but it always looked to me like a lot of those leglock entries from open guard could sorta be converted into a wrestle up/stand up instead...especially now as leglock defense is something that a lot of guys are putting serious work into and nowadays I'm more likely to get my back taken or get countered by a leglock if I start playing the leg attacks.

Am I far off base here?

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[ford.304]

It's absolutely where things are headed, especially in no gi.

The nice thing is that they work really well with each other. There are so many leglock entries off of failed shots, or even successful ones -- if I have your leg isolated to finish a single, I can drop into a heel hook just as easily.

[Mitch]

I disagree a bit. Only because I think the wrestle ups have already been in the fold for a few years now (it’s been one of the most common sweeps at ADCC for years).

I think the next big thing will be more focus on Greco style take downs that don’t risk winding up in the front headlock position. We could see more leg weave passing too to counter wrestle ups.

[frozentundra]

Rousimar Palhares. Leg locking hormone cyborg devil monkey. True story.

[pointfiveoh]

I'm making my living on seated ankle picks right now. It will stop working soon, but I'm enjoying them while they last.

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[Cecil Burch]

It is my feeling that a lot of what's coming to BJJ might actually be an emphasis on wrestling up instead of trying to get in on leglocks.

I may be wrong, but it always looked to me like a lot of those leglock entries from open guard could sorta be converted into a wrestle up/stand up instead...especially now as leglock defense is something that a lot of guys are putting serious work into and nowadays I'm more likely to get my back taken or get countered by a leglock if I start playing the leg attacks.

Am I far off base here?

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No, you are not far off. But it is the typical cycle of jiujitsu. It always happens. Some new cool thing comes along, a few people start beating everyone with it, it becomes the "ultimate move that will revolutinize BJJ", lots of vids/DVDS, lots of seminars, and then at some point people figure out how to deal with the move, and it fades back to just part of the arsenal. It is happening with leglocks, and it will happen with wrestle ups.

Open gaurd, triangles, turtle guard, DLR, lasso, rubber guard, wristlocks, leglocks originally (circa 1997), x guard, single leg x, berimbolos, lapel attacks/wormguard, and leglocks again. Now wrestling as a new emphasis. Wait 1-3 years, and it will be something else.

[ford.304]

Whatever people haven't been training as much. I know in the gym it feels like cheating when I come in with some technique off a video that no one is used to dealing with. I kind of hate that, by the way -- I never get to the "counter" techniques in the video if the first one works!

BJJ folks in general (unless they wrestled previously) just have awful wrestling fundamentals.

Most of what I hope comes out of the current wrestling focus is a some kind of "standard" set of wrestling fundamentals that are well-adapted to submission wrestling and are actually taught consistently across BJJ gyms. It's so hard to force yourself to learn, say, singles and doubles when a) statistically speaking, you're a 30+ year old dude with shitty knees b) until you get really good at them, you're just diving into a guillotine c) you're probably not practicing the set ups enough to do more than just blast them against unsuspecting white belts anyway. I want blue belts to have the same level of wrestling *fundamentals* in terms of stance, pummeling, and movement that you see out of a JV high school wrestler, at least!

My goal for the last two years has been to address that gaping hole in my game (I absolutely started out at a traditional Gracie gym, where lip service was paid to "get on top, stay on top" but then we started most of our rolls in closed guard). But it can be so hard! Most places I go, people don't *want* to stand with you unless they wrestled in high school (AKA, have 5 years more stand up experience than you do), so you don't have that natural ramp up of "do it in drilling, then on a white belt, blue belt, etc."

Not to mention that all of the really *good* wrestling instructionals (thank you again, Cecil, for the recommendations! They have helped massively!) are aimed at a different ruleset, so you're piecing together how they should adapt to BJJ (or your 40-year-old knees) on your own.

Danaher's efforts in that direction are a step, but you can tell he's still not a high level wrestling coach in terms of the quality of the technical instruction (compared to his jiu jitsu stuff, which is top notch, if long-winded).

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm glad that this and leglocks have both been added to the meta, because today's meta becomes tomorrow's fundamental techniques. And these ones seem actually general purpose useful (as opposed to people trying to tie me up in lapel guard... ugh!).