Suspects With Body Armor Thread

[HCM]

As mentioned in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?50413-Ammunition-capacity-requirements-(culled-posts)

we’ve seen an increase in suspects with body armor at various “civil unrest” events and four of the suspects I’ve arrested in the past year have had body armor, mostly AR-500 plates.

Another recent thread included this video of a homeowner shot at by car burglars, one of whom is seen wearing soft body armor.

https://youtu.be/yrJpWS7ylE4

Then while looking up a Las Vegas Metro PD shooting I saw this bolo regarding a random shooting at a gas station involving a suspect wearing a plate carrier.

80283
80284

https://www.fox5vegas.com/news/suspect-identified-in-completely-random-shooting-outside-of-las-vegas-gas-station/article_f3e001b2-3d6a-11ec-9252-3785b46e4612.html

So in this thread we will document and discuss suspects wearing body armor.

[UNM1136]

Mozambique. Was going to say Failure Drill or Failure to Stop Drill, but, yeah, hell yeah. The double tap to COM is and should be the A response, but assess, assess, and act!

The first time I tested for SWAT we had a stress course to shoot. One of the targets had an Uzi pointed up, and was wearing soft armor. I hammered the body and put one in the nugget. I cleaned the course, but only got a 96%. I lost two points each for each part of the hammer to the body. They were a couple of inches or so apart COM, but I lost points beccause of the poor decision to put two into the visible body armor. My arguement was that his day got worse, not better, when I put two pills COM, and could have ended the fight if he decided to toss the gun and hit the dirt before the third round arrived. SWAT sergeant was not moved. Gotta think on your feet, not default to a standard response.

pat

[jmf552]

I am no expert, just a defensive carrier with a fair amount of training. What I notice about both situations is how much body area the vests don't cover. I think I would start putting rounds in the groin area by just dropping my COM hold down about a foot. I know the pelvis is a controversial target area, but like a guy on another forum says, "All hits are better than no hits." A head shot would be great, but at my level of skill, the guy would have to be not moving for me to want to go there.

[Rex G]

One of the several reasons I favored having a shotgun, while on duty, was because it would simplify dealing with armor.ed opponents. Not that I expect the pellets to penetrate body armor, but because a swarm of pellets directed at the throat, face, flank, abdomen, or pelvis would be likely to have such a serious effect. Or, of course, if the upper body is well-armored, the legs and feet can be quite vulnerable to shotgun pellet injury.

I never arrested anyone actually wearing body armor, 1984 to 2018.

[DocGKR]

Yup--simply shoot above or below the armor.

[breakingtime91]

Yup--simply shoot above or below the armor.

What Doc said. I had a really good talk with my vehicle commander when I was a young marine about his time in Fallujah. Some of the bad guys were running armor and his squad had figured it out the hard way when a bad guy wouldn't go down as quickly as they were used to. They took to the SOP of shooting high chest (above where the plate carrier or armor would be) or in the stomach until the guy was more stationary and then make sure with a security round to the face. That has kind of always been my plan since.

[fly out]

I hope this doesn't seem frivolous in a Law Enforcement thread...

If I'm in a stop'n'rob when that guy comes through the door, one of two things happened. Either I'm out of town and refueling, in which case I probably have 16 9mm, or, I popped out for something, and I may only have five 148gr wadcutters.

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.

[blues]

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.

Maybe a pelvic shot (or two) and a head shot if the opportunity is present. Really depends on the kit the individual is wearing and what is presented to you.

[El Cid]

I hope this doesn't seem frivolous in a Law Enforcement thread...

If I'm in a stop'n'rob when that guy comes through the door, one of two things happened. Either I'm out of town and refueling, in which case I probably have 16 9mm, or, I popped out for something, and I may only have five 148gr wadcutters.

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.

Or…. wear an appropriate firearm all the time when out in public. Even if I lived in Mayberry, a snub or G43 type weapon will not be my only/primary. In addition to armor, bad guys seem to be traveling in larger numbers lately.

[blues]

Or…. wear an appropriate firearm all the time when out in public. Even if I lived in Mayberry, a snub or G43 type weapon will not be my only/primary. In addition to armor, bad guys seem to be traveling in larger numbers lately.

Don't ruin it for me, K. I still want to be able to wear my 642 for walking around the home area. A Glock for wherever I drive to.

[Totem Polar]

Maybe a pelvic shot (or two) and a head shot if the opportunity is present. Really depends on the kit the individual is wearing and what is presented to you.

Not that anyone should take my opinion over the postings from all the far more experienced upthread, but I am a believer in the “shoot what’s available until something better becomes available or your hits make something better available” bumper sticker.

I’m also a believer in knowing where the ‘employees only’ back door is, anytime that I’m not carrying a gauge or the Daniel Defense… which is pretty much all the time, 24/7/365.

[TGS]

I hope this doesn't seem frivolous in a Law Enforcement thread...

If I'm in a stop'n'rob when that guy comes through the door, one of two things happened. Either I'm out of town and refueling, in which case I probably have 16 9mm, or, I popped out for something, and I may only have five 148gr wadcutters.

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.

I think this very quickly underlines the "capacity is opportunity" mantra.

You're very unlikely to break the pelvic girdle with a pistol and obtain a mobility-kill, but you'll at least start the "timer" for exsanguination and could put the rest of your eggs in the "hope" basket; see BehindBlueI's observations as a homicide detective on citizens almost always winning if they're able to fire at all.

There's a good video we discussed here years ago, probably pre-dating your membership. I think it was out of Sri Lanka. A bunch of officers shot a guy in the pelvis and he proceeded to chop a few of them up with his machete. He died from exsanguination.....eventually.

[JCN]

For the indoor range slow fire shooters that think COM at 7 yards is “good enough” better listen up and have the skills and automaticity to transition and hit a smaller target if that’s what’s opportune.

Nobody ever wished for less skill or less bullets in a gunfight.

[secondstoryguy]

We have been encountering more and more armor on the street, both soft and hard. The last guy that we lost rolled a room and faced a guy with a long-gun and soft armor. He "lost" the gunfight but got rounds on the BG that worked...not well enough to save him but effective enough to take the BG out of the fight. I've noticed on the street(and as a military medic) that lower abdominal and pelvic hits tend to make bag guys unhappy enough to often stop fighting...even with low velocity weapons. You never really can say that its 100% effective...humans being the unpredictable beings that they are...

[HCM]

Other recent examples:

Man in Body Armor Killed After Police Shootout in New Jersey


https://youtu.be/9TMzeZNK_2M


A man was killed and three New Jersey police officers were injured after a shootout involving a rifle-wielding suspect sporting body armor who was then killed by police, authorities said.

One officer was shot in both legs after 11:30 a.m. outside a home on Myrtle Avenue in Irvington, while the other two cops sustained lesser gunshot injuries.

According to attorney general's office, police were called to the scene after reports of shots fired and a man being gunned down. The shooter fired at the man after an argument, police sources said.

When officers arrived at the scene, the gunman appeared to be in full body armor — prepared for a shootout. Officials said cops exchanged gunfire with the suspect, identified as 39-year-old Kaizen Crossen, killing him.



Suspect in police killing wore body armor, but authorities say that's not unheard of

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-paul-bauer-shooting-body-armor-20180214-story.html


The 44-year-old convicted felon charged with fatally shooting Chicago police Cmdr. Paul Bauer was wearing a long jacket that concealed a bulletproof vest, according to police.

In Illinois and at least 25 other states, wearing body armor while committing a crime is a felony. Convicted felons are barred from possessing bulletproof vests — which can be purchased for as little as $250 on Walmart’s website — in Illinois, but the vests are otherwise permitted. And illegally possessing both a firearm and bulletproof vest is a felony that carries a minimum 10-year prison sentence.

Florida gunman wearing full body armor kills 4 people, including infant in mother's arms

https://abc7chicago.com/florida-shooting-body-armor-baby/11001541/



Florida gunman wearing full body armor kills 4 people, including infant in mother's arms
CNNWire By Madeline Holcombe, Eric Levenson and Gregory Lemos, CNN
Monday, September 6, 2021

EMBED <>MORE VIDEOS
A man outfitted in body armor who described himself as a "survivalist" fatally shot four people, including an infant in their mother's arms.

LAKELAND, Fla. -- Four people -- a man, an infant and the child's mother and grandmother -- all lost their lives early Sunday morning in what a Florida sheriff called an "active shooter rampage" carried about by a former Marine.

The shooting took place at a property outside Lakeland, Florida, and escalated when the suspect, outfitted in body armor, engaged in a firefight with law enforcement before surrendering to authorities.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/544529-boulder-shooting-suspect-had-assault-rifle-used-body-armor

Boulder shooting suspect had assault rifle, used body armor



TheHill.com
Boulder shooting suspect had assault rifle, used body armor
BY JORDAN WILLIAMS - 03/23/21 02:00 PM EDT 1,201

The suspect detained in connection with the shooting at a grocery store in Boulder, Colo., that left 10 people dead had an assault rifle and used body armor, according to authorities.

The new details were noted in an arrest warrant for 21-year-old Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa published by The Colorado Sun.

According to the arrest warrant, multiple people called the police as the shooting took place at a King Soopers grocery store. One witness said that the suspect was “wearing an armored vest and was about 5’8'' tall, with a chubby build and and approximately 280 pounds.”

Man With Body Armor Killed by LAPD in Hollywood Identified
The coroner's office has identified the man killed on Sunset and Fairfax as 34-year-old Richard Solitro.
By Kim Tobin • Published April 25, 2021 • Updated on April 26, 2021 at 10:20 am


https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/man-with-body-armor-lapd-shooting-hollywood-sunset-boulevard-police/2581409/


LAPD says their officers were confronted on Sunset Boulevard Saturday, when a driver cut them off, hit reverse and backed into their patrol car. They say the man got out, confronted the officers while wearing a bulletproof vest and had his hand behind his back.

The LAPD say they ordered the man to show his hands several times, before he started counting down, and they opened fire.

Solitro died at the scene, but police say he did not have a weapon.

[BehindBlueI's]

I hope this doesn't seem frivolous in a Law Enforcement thread...

If I'm in a stop'n'rob when that guy comes through the door, one of two things happened. Either I'm out of town and refueling, in which case I probably have 16 9mm, or, I popped out for something, and I may only have five 148gr wadcutters.

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.


I think this very quickly underlines the "capacity is opportunity" mantra.

You're very unlikely to break the pelvic girdle with a pistol and obtain a mobility-kill, but you'll at least start the "timer" for exsanguination and could put the rest of your eggs in the "hope" basket; see BehindBlueI's observations as a homicide detective on citizens almost always winning if they're able to fire at all.

There's a good video we discussed here years ago, probably pre-dating your membership. I think it was out of Sri Lanka. A bunch of officers shot a guy in the pelvis and he proceeded to chop a few of them up with his machete. He died from exsanguination.....eventually.



TGS is correct, even with multiple attacker events. Robbers tend to want to live to rob another day and professional robbers know that it's a Murder charge if someone gets killed (even on their side, in my state) during the robbery. In the face of any opposition and when there was an opportunity to flee, they did so. The exceptions were almost entirely entanglements. The bad guy was entangled with the good guy either before the draw began (generally because the bad guy spotted the gun or the draw stroke and attempted to intervene to prevent a draw) or as the draw was taking place. Once entangled they tended to stay entangled until they disarmed the person or could otherwise safely flee. Note most fled after the entangled fight, even if they won. I suspect it's because they think they've spent too much time inside and feel the pressure to escape prior to police arrival building, but that's supposition only.

I would recommend biding your time if possible. You probably won't be the focus of the suspect, especially if you don't appear to be a threat at the first glance. Then use surprise to your advantage while not under observation. Then, if you need to shoot, go for a high probability target. If you can't hit the head, a pelvis shot is probably going to put them to flight or cause a psychological stop and surrender. If you're flanking, there's almost always gaps on the sides of armor, especially in the arm pit area. Another reason to bide your time if you can.

[Rex G]

I hope this doesn't seem frivolous in a Law Enforcement thread...

If I'm in a stop'n'rob when that guy comes through the door, one of two things happened. Either I'm out of town and refueling, in which case I probably have 16 9mm, or, I popped out for something, and I may only have five 148gr wadcutters.

Do I spend one or two of those five precious rounds going below the armor, or do I save them for above the armor? I realize this is going to be dependent on how things are developing, but...would the assembled minds have a general rule of thumb?

A few more videos of miscreants in body armor and my milk run/j-frame calculus might be rejiggered, permanently.

I do not really think of 148-grain target wadcutters as being something that will have much effect on a pelvis. Really, for me, the run to the little corner store is time to UP-gun. Most such stores, in this area, have no rear or side exits.

Considering that my “lazy” way to carry a gun, if I do not want to wear trousers with substantial pockets, is to grab a Safepacker, with a sling attached, I have to go more trouble to carry a pocket pistol, than a big .45 or .357 Mag, because the big gun is already in a bag, more ready-to-go.

[Eric_L]

I do not really think of 148-grain target wadcutters as being something that will have much effect on a pelvis. Really, for me, the run to the little corner store is time to UP-gun. Most such stores, in this area, have no rear or side exits.

Considering that my “lazy” way to carry a gun, if I do not want to wear trousers with substantial pockets, is to grab a Safepacker, with a sling attached, I have to go more trouble to carry a pocket pistol, than a big .45 or .357 Mag, because the big gun is already in a bag, more ready-to-go.

So, you throw the safe packer sling over shoulder/neck?

[Rex G]

So, you throw the safe packer sling over shoulder/neck?
Cross-body, on sling, or, just hand-held.

[Kyle Reese]

For the indoor range slow fire shooters that think COM at 7 yards is “good enough” better listen up and have the skills and automaticity to transition and hit a smaller target if that’s what’s opportune.

Nobody ever wished for less skill or less bullets in a gunfight.

You mean the same people who don’t draw from a holster and think that timers are for Timmy McGamer?

The same folks who will castigate us for shooting more than one round in 4 seconds because it’s “rapid fire”?

[emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

So what is the effect of a handgun bullet striking soft armor, and same question hitting hard armor. Then same questions for 5.56, buck and a slug.

[JCN]

So what is the effect of a handgun bullet striking soft armor, and same question hitting hard armor. Then same questions for 5.56, buck and a slug.

Depends on the round and if there’s backing to the armor.

Over the years I bought many individual squares of different types of body armor so I could test different calibers with one shot per virgin armor. In front of ballistic gel, in front of wood.

Basically if they have any padding between them and the soft armor the back face deformation won’t stop anyone. Which is one of the reasons I prefer soft armor in a backpack with a padded surface.

5.56 goes through like butter. Buck and slug are both stopped but more back face deformation.

Supersonic 300 blackout from a rattler may or may not go through. Depending on the particular round.

5.56 through IIIA soft and then through “muscle” and “bone (oak plank).”


https://youtu.be/EldEMc6b_RM

[JCN]

GJM

I found one of the early ballistic armor tests I did. It kind of helps with some of the deformation question. Hope it’s helpful!

I did a bunch of follow up tests with things after.


https://youtu.be/mRFAKP4zIeE

Clusterfrack
TheNewbie

[TGS]

So what is the effect of a handgun bullet striking soft armor, and same question hitting hard armor. Then same questions for 5.56, buck and a slug.

Handgun vs soft armor usually leaves bruising to various degrees.

Rifle vs steel will usually put you down hard unless you're wearing a soft backer; broken ribs and hemothoraxes are common with larger calibers, which are not likely to be deadly CONUS. OCONUS with lengthened treatment times or poor medical care, they are life threatening. The Soviets' main definitive care hospital evacuation site during the Afghan War was in Kazakhstan and it usually took 3 days from time of injury to get there; a significant number of Soviet troops who were hit with 303 and 7.62x54r died from hemothoraxes during this time, regardless of the round being stopped by their body armor.

Rifle vs ceramic is usually much better for the wearer, as the ceramic absorbs the energy and breaks into chunks instead of transferring most of it to the wearer.

Keep in mind it can vary depending on specific round, range, angle, and specific armor being worn.

[Caballoflaco]

I couldn’t get imbedded video to work, but standoff in Colorado with dude with a scar 17 and body armor who shot at his neighbor. Was ultimately stopped with a hit to the leg.

https://funker530.com/video/fn-scar-wielding-man-shoots-at-friendly-neighbor-police-neutralize-nsfw/

[HCM]

I couldn’t get imbedded video to work, but standoff in Colorado with dude with a scar 17 and body armor who shot at his neighbor. Was ultimately stopped with a hit to the leg.

https://funker530.com/video/fn-scar-wielding-man-shoots-at-friendly-neighbor-police-neutralize-nsfw/

Ironically, video begins with an ad for AR500 Plates / carriers…..

[DDTSGM]

So what is the effect of a handgun bullet striking soft armor, and same question hitting hard armor. Then same questions for 5.56, buck and a slug.

The video below is of save #2000 for the DuPont Kevlar Survivor's Club. Deputy Henry Huff was shot twice in the chest at point blank range by a 15 year-old who had taken his grandma's car for a joyride. The IACP and Dupont put out a video on this incident and others which shows the cleaned up/enhanced video, I didn't take a copy when I retired. As you listen to the video you here Deputy Huff give his warrior cry as he is hit, then proceed to get down to business. Looking at the time lapse on the video, he is at the back of the vehicle firing rounds, which hit the driver's headrest BTW, less than 5 seconds after being hit. The juvenile survived because he had rolled to the right, laying across the seats as he fired at Huff, and apparently hadn't completely set up as the vehicle drove away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUcwI_XR_lI

[cmbarny2]

Even with our massive violence and gun crime increase this year we haven't encountered any body armor here. Lots of rifle rounds located on scenes though. We have come into contact with more than a few wearing the "fashion body armor", you know the vests made by weird off name brands that are meant to look "cool" but don't have any functional use to them.

[Caballoflaco]

Armed robbery in LA. Badguys wearing “Police” marked soft armor looking vests. Impossible to tell if it’s real armor or not from the video.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW_45rSM0he/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Sorry, can’t get imbed from Instagram to work if someone could help me out.

[blues]

Armed robbery in LA. Badguys wearing “Police” marked soft armor looking vests. Impossible to tell if it’s real armor or not from the video.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW_45rSM0he/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

Sorry, can’t get imbed from Instagram to work if someone could help me out.



Link doesn't work for me...but that's a real problem and I'm sure one that will become more prevalent.

[whomever]

If you copy the URL, there is some extra h-t-t-p at the front of the link. Paste the link somewhere and delete everything up to the h-t-t-p-s (without the dashes).

This might work - type instagram dot com that add this: /p/CW_45rSM0he/

People buying police-ish outfits off amazon is why I have a lot of sympathy for the mom here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMdm61YfoHI

[Caballoflaco]

I’ll try this again. Run up armed robbery with suspects wearing what looks like soft armor with Police markings.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CW_45rSM0he/

p/CW_45rSM0he


ETA: Woohoo! Think that should be working now.

[blues]

Thanks...that worked.

[Caballoflaco]

https://youtu.be/OyN0D6yudBk

Already posted by HCM in the uof thread, but if you watch at the very end it sure looks like the bad guy is wearing soft armor under his shirt. There’s also radio traffic during the helicopter footage where someone else mentions he’s wearing a vest.

[Caballoflaco]

Suspect barricaded in a vehicle with body armor. Looks like rifle rated steel plates.


https://youtu.be/2ZkllshusE4

[JHC]

Suspect barricaded in a vehicle with body armor. Looks like rifle rated steel plates.


https://youtu.be/2ZkllshusE4

What do think was going on with the first left hand side of the split screen LEO that had his slide locked back/stuck locked back before he got to shooting? Did I miss that he'd already shot from inside his car and fouled the cycling or something?

[Nephrology]

Suspect barricaded in a vehicle with body armor. Looks like rifle rated steel plates.


https://youtu.be/2ZkllshusE4

One of those plates is gym equipment

https://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-echo-weight-vest-plates?sku=IP1006-10&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjIKYBhC6ARIsAGEds-J_jZ4WETjwfbJioxohxM8xmpc93cWMNLqMJYloJoQTaMeO3RCw VUsaAjHeEALw_wcB

[Beat Trash]

What do think was going on with the first left hand side of the split screen LEO that had his slide locked back/stuck locked back before he got to shooting? Did I miss that he'd already shot from inside his car and fouled the cycling or something?

I watched this a few times. It appears the slide was partially back, not locked fully back. He didn't appear to fire from inside of his vehicle. If I were to guess, and I am guessing; the Deputy somehow jam'd the slide partially back and induce some type of malfunction while reholstering as he ran to get back into his vehicle as the target vehicle sped off from the scene of the initial encounter. If under stress and attempting to reholster as he was running, it's possible that some portion of the front of the slide caught on some portion of the opening of his holster. From personal experience I have found reholstering while running is more difficult than when standing still. Wearing body armor and a uniform shirt that may becoming untucked while running doesn't help matters either.

From watching the Deputy's difficulty in clearing the malfunction, it appeared like he was dealing with a double feed.

To the credit of this Deputy, he remained calm, was behind cover and continued to work the problem until the pistol was back up.

I have no contacts with this agency where I can get more information. So I'm just guessing.

[HCM]

Per press releases,,the shooter, a 24 year old male was wearing a ballistic helmet, vest with steel rifle plates and knee pads. The suspect also had a semi auto rifle, multiple magazines, a gas mask and multiple incendiary devices. Suspect threw a Molotov cocktail but it failed to ignite.


https://www.azfamily.com/2022/08/30/3-dead-2-police-officers-injured-after-shootout-outside-north-phoenix-hotel/

3 dead, 2 police officers injured after shootout outside north Phoenix hotel


PHOENIX (3TV/CBS 5) -- Two Phoenix police officers are injured, and three people, including the alleged gunman, were killed during a shooting outside a north Phoenix hotel on Sunday night. Officers responded to reports of a shooting at the Days Inn near 26th Avenue and Deer Valley Road around 8:45 p.m., just west of Interstate 17. Officers say 24-year-old Isaiah Steven Williams, who was wearing full tactical gear, including a vest and a helmet, walked out of the hotel and began shooting randomly. At one point, investigators say, Williams tried to throw a Molotov cocktail at a nearby Waffle House, but it did not catch fire.

As Williams continued shooting, 36-year-old Misael Arevalo and a woman pulled into the parking lot and were shot and killed. When police arrived, Williams reportedly opened fire on several patrol vehicles. Two officers were injured after one was struck by a bullet in the shoulder and another was hit by shrapnel.


Police say the officer injured by shrapnel was able to get out of his car and began shooting at Williams. According to police, surveillance video shows Williams walking through the parking lot before falling to the ground. Authorities confirmed Williams shot himself and died at the scene.

Both officers were rushed to the hospital, one of whom was released early Monday morning. Police say the second officer is still in the hospital but is in stable condition and good spirits. Police say three other men, who police called innocent bystanders, were also injured by the gunfire. They all had non-life-threatening injuries.

Arizona’s Family spoke to a guest at the motel who was among those injured, Wesley Williams. He’s not related to the shooter. He said he was staying in a room with his son and six-year-old daughter when he thought he heard fireworks around 8:30 p.m. “I heard what I thought were firecrackers in the hallway, went out to investigate to see what it was and the hallway comes down a little and turns. Once I got around the corner, maybe three foot into the area started shooting through the door and I got hit,” Wesley said.

He showed Arizona’s Family the injuries. Beneath a cut and bruise on his face is a bullet. He said he was fortunate it didn’t hit his jaw or neck and said another bullet grazed his arm. “When I first got shot, I went back in and woke him up, my son up, had him call 911, and got my six-year-old put down in a corner,” he explained.

Williams’ son Kyle was awakened by the incident and heard the gunfire. “I was sleeping; my dad was saying, ‘call 911, call 911, I just got shot.’ And by that time I started hearing more gunshots down the hallway,” said Kyle.

[CraigS]

To inject a little humor into a serious thread. My wife took some lessons several years ago from a trainer at our local indoor range. At one point she did a vertical string of about 5 shots which started low and worked their way up. I don't remember his comment but she laughed and said, 'I did that in case the bad guy was wearing body armor.'

[Caballoflaco]

Albuquerque NM. FBI bust leads to arrest of gang members who were in possession of what look like at least 3 sets of concealable soft armor armor; also of note an OG Steyr Aug.

In the video @1:46

https://youtu.be/18IXGPqiTjo

[Caballoflaco]

From local news site. Soft body armor and a box of probably Meth pipes based on the area

https://www.al.com/news/2023/08/shooting-suspect-in-custody-after-2-hour-standoff-at-tarrant-home-guns-ammo-seized.html

Shooting suspect in custody after 2-hour standoff at Tarrant home; guns, ammo seized


Chief Wendell Major said officers, along with the Jefferson County Sheriff’s Office SWAT team, responded to the home.

The suspect, whose name has not been released pending formal charges, barricaded himself inside the residence for about two hours. He was taken into custody about 10:30 a.m.

107966

[HCM]

https://youtu.be/UYGg5dKRq7M


LA County Deputies Shoot Suspect Who Decided to Randomly Fire His Rifle Throughout a Neighborhood




Diamond Bar, California — On June 19, 2023, at 11:36 a.m., Walnut Station deputies responded to the 2900 block of Crooked Creek Drive, Diamond Bar, regarding a call of a male in the street firing a rifle. The male was later identified as 30-year-old Benjamin Chin. Chin was wearing a ballistic vest and was armed with a rifle. Responding deputies arrived on scene and utilized their patrol vehicle’s public announcement system (P.A.) to order Chin to drop his weapon. Chin ignored their commands and continued to walk east on Crooked Creek Road towards Diamond Bar Boulevard. Deputies followed Chin at a distance and continued making P.A. announcements, pleading for Chin to drop his weapon. Chin walked into oncoming traffic in the 3000 block of Diamond Bar Boulevard, causing a vehicle to come to a complete stop.

Responding deputies exited their patrol vehicles and continued to give Chin verbal commands to drop his weapon. Chin refused their orders and walked towards the driver of the stopped vehicle, while holding his rifle in the low-ready position, at which time a deputy involved-shooting occurred. Chin was struck by gunfire and fell to the ground. The deputies rendered medical aid until the arrival of Los Angeles County Fire Department paramedics. Chin was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced deceased. It was later determined that Chin fired his rifle, stabbed his mother, and pointed his rifle at a pedestrian. Chin’s mother was treated for a stab wound. No other persons were injured during this incident. A loaded rifle, loaded rifle magazines, expended .223 caliber shell casings and body armor were recovered at the scene.

[HCM]

https://youtu.be/i_mi1Rk1Txs

Heavily armed gunman in body armor kills 5 in Philadelphia




A heavily armed gunman wearing a bulletproof vest shot and killed five people in Philadelphia. Two children, including a toddler, were injured. Police were able to apprehend the suspect but investigators currently do not have a motive in the shooting. NBC’s George Solis reports for TODAY.

[Torquemada]

This raises the question, if a submachine gun in 9mm is barely adequate to deal with body armor, and the police system going back to the 9mm in droves..

Is the 9mm even going to matter anymore on a street level? Or was elmer Keith correct with the 41 magnum for a duty gun?

[Default.mp3]

This raises the question, if a submachine gun in 9mm is barely adequate to deal with body armor, and the police system going back to the 9mm in droves..

Is the 9mm even going to matter anymore on a street level? Or was elmer Keith correct with the 41 magnum for a duty gun?Why would .41 Magnum be any different? Level II is specced to defeat .357 Magnum (158 gr at 1430 FPS), while Level IIIa is specced to defeat .44 Magnum (240 gr at 1340 FPS).

[HCountyGuy]

This raises the question, if a submachine gun in 9mm is barely adequate to deal with body armor, and the police system going back to the 9mm in droves..

Is the 9mm even going to matter anymore on a street level? Or was elmer Keith correct with the 41 magnum for a duty gun?



I'm finding the quality of your posts on this forum so far to be lacking, and this example is no different. Your response demonstrates you haven't read any of the prior discussion in this thread, nor can you even apply basic problem solving to the issue at hand.

[WobblyPossum]

This raises the question, if a submachine gun in 9mm is barely adequate to deal with body armor, and the police system going back to the 9mm in droves..

Is the 9mm even going to matter anymore on a street level? Or was elmer Keith correct with the 41 magnum for a duty gun?

No readily accessible/available handgun ammunition will penetrate soft body armor. That’s the point of soft body armor. You’re going to have to shoot at unarmored body parts or move to centerfire rifle calibers if you’re concerned about adversaries wearing soft armor. Most random street criminals are also not wearing body armor. An idea that a standard handgun caliber isn’t “even going to matter anymore on a street level” is nonsense.

[El Cid]

From local news site. Soft body armor and a box of probably Meth pipes based on the area

https://www.al.com/news/2023/08/shooting-suspect-in-custody-after-2-hour-standoff-at-tarrant-home-guns-ammo-seized.html

Shooting suspect in custody after 2-hour standoff at Tarrant home; guns, ammo seized



107966

Rest easy though. The AR is from during the 94 "Assault Weapons Ban" and lacks a collapsible stock and muzzle device. It's therefore been rendered safe. lol!

[HCM]

This raises the question, if a submachine gun in 9mm is barely adequate to deal with body armor, and the police system going back to the 9mm in droves..

Is the 9mm even going to matter anymore on a street level? Or was elmer Keith correct with the 41 magnum for a duty gun?

Soft body armor is made to stop pistol caliber rounds.

Pistol calibers are pistol calibers whether 9mm out of a pistol or SMG or magnum revolver rounds.

The answer to suspects with soft body armor is rifles or shooting threats in areas covered by armor.

Police using .41 mags with magnum ammo was a non starter even back in the revolver days. At that time they carried a .41 “police load” (think .41 special) that was equivalent to modern 40 S&W and was a .41 mag in name only.

[Joe in PNG]

Rest easy though. The AR is from during the 94 "Assault Weapons Ban" and lacks a collapsible stock and muzzle device. It's therefore been rendered safe. lol!

He's also got a 10 round mag for the Ruger.

[Joe in PNG]

Soft body armor is made to stop pistol caliber rounds.

Pistol calibers are pistol calibers whether 9mm out of a pistol or SMG or magnum revolver rounds.

The answer to suspects with soft body armor is rifles or shooting threats in areas covered by armor.

Police using .41 mags with magnum ammo was a non starter even back in the revolver days. At that time they carried a .41 “police load” (think .41 special) that was equivalent to modern 40 S&W and was a .41 mag in name only.

Now HCM- everybody knows if you choot a bad guy with a MAGNUM!!!!, it will TOTALLY pick them up and fling them back like 10 feet!!!!
Where as that silly little 9Europellet or Poodelshooter Matty Mattell will just make them mad!
And NOBODY knows NOTHING about guns anymore because they're a bunch of sissy beta cucks!!!

[Caballoflaco]

Rest easy though. The AR is from during the 94 "Assault Weapons Ban" and lacks a collapsible stock and muzzle device. It's therefore been rendered safe. lol!

That Ruger pistol mag is an awb ban mag blocked at 10 too, I’m thinking this dude hadn’t bought any guns since the 90’s.

Eta: dang Joe beat me to it.

[HCM]

Atascosa County is the adjacent county South of San Antonio.

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/09/01/i-37-shut-down-in-atascosa-county-after-law-enforcement-kills-murder-suspect/


I-37 shut down in Atascosa County after law enforcement kills murder suspect
Highway closed until further notice between FM 3006, Bexar County line northeast of Pleasanton




ATASCOSA COUNTY, Texas – Interstate 37 South in Atascosa County is shut down Friday after law enforcement officers shot and killed a murder suspect from Corpus Christi, Atascosa County Sheriff David Soward said.

The highway is shut down between FM 3006 and the Bexar County line northeast of Pleasanton, Soward said.
Motorists are urged to avoid the area as the interstate is expected to be closed for several hours.

Soward told KRIS-TV in Corpus Christi that an officer with the Atascosa County District Attorney’s Office tried to stop a pickup truck the suspect was driving when he sped off.

A DPS trooper set up some road spikes near the Bexar County line that flattened two of the suspect’s truck tires, causing him to swerve into the median, Soward said.

The suspect, who was wearing a bullet-proof vest, jumped from the vehicle armed with a rifle and opened fire on officers, Soward said. The officers returned fire, killing the man.

An officer with the Nueces County District Attorney’s office told KRIS-TV that the suspect was wanted in connection with the death of a woman whose body was found in a home by relatives early Friday.

The suspect was a former law enforcement officer who at one time worked for the Nueces County Precinct 4 Constables Office, the DA’s office said.

We will update this story as we gather more information.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

HCM I saw rifle/armor & former LE of some flavor, the OIS invetsigation should be interesting.

[HCM]

HCM I saw rifle/armor & former LE of some flavor, the OIS invetsigation should be interesting.

Apparently at least one round struck the windshield of a random car driving in the opposite direction hitting the driver but luckily causing only minor injury.

Nothing official yet, but if I were a betting man, I bet the bullet which struck that bystander was an LE bullet.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Well, damn.
I drove through that area both north and south Tuesday evening/night taking my daughter to the airport.

https://www.kristv.com/news/local-news/corpus-christi-murder-suspect-dead-after-shootout-on-i-37-south-of-san-antonio

https://www.portasouthjetty.com/articles/murder-suspect-killed-in-shootout-was-former-deputy-who-served-in-port-aransas/

[babypanther]

https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2023/03/huntsville-police-officer-dies-after-being-shot-in-the-line-of-duty-2nd-remains-hospitalized.html

This was from earlier in the year, the suspect was wearing a plate carrier and plates during the incident, armed with a Colt 6920 and a glock.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

No media link and no further details as still an ongoing investigation. For those who know where I work, keep it out of the thread.

Body armored suspect attempted robbery. Gun fight ensued. Armored suspect killed, civilian defender uninjured. Plates are real, no airsoft style stuff.

Locally, we are seeing a rise in suspects with armor, modified Glocks to fire fully auto, and 5.7 caliber handguns.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Locally, we are seeing a rise in suspects with armor, modified Glocks to fire fully auto, and 5.7 caliber handguns.

That combination will make things sporty.

For those who know, are the "gov't" 5.7mm loads still restricted or have they gotten out into the wild?

[HCM]

That combination will make things sporty.

For those who know, are the "gov't" 5.7mm loads still restricted or have they gotten out into the wild?

You can buy a few at inflated prices but they are still restricted both by manufacturers policy and legally as armor piercing handgun ammo.

[mmc45414]

Body armored suspect attempted robbery. Gun fight ensued. Armored suspect killed, civilian defender uninjured.
Was the defender skilled or lucky?

[parishioner]

Locally, we are seeing a rise in suspects with....modified Glocks to fire fully auto....

These seem popular....

1720639963262579018

[Stephanie B]

Locally, we are seeing a rise in suspects with armor, modified Glocks to fire fully auto, and 5.7 caliber handguns.

I've been thinking about that. Maybe some of the targets in matches should have no-shoots over the t-shirt area. When I think of it on shooting at a silhouette or graphic target, I use the collarbone notch as an aiming point. (There's probably a medical term for that.)

[BehindBlueI's]

I use the collarbone notch as an aiming point. (There's probably a medical term for that.)

I learned it as "jugular notch" but it's also called the suprasternal notch.

[JRB]

No media link and no further details as still an ongoing investigation. For those who know where I work, keep it out of the thread.

Body armored suspect attempted robbery. Gun fight ensued. Armored suspect killed, civilian defender uninjured. Plates are real, no airsoft style stuff.

Locally, we are seeing a rise in suspects with armor, modified Glocks to fire fully auto, and 5.7 caliber handguns.

(emphasis mine)

Sounds like I'd be proud to buy a beer for that 'civilian defender'.

[rcbusmc24]

You can buy a few at inflated prices but they are still restricted both by manufacturers policy and legally as armor piercing handgun ammo.

111176

It's pretty much available if you know what you are looking for....

[DrkBlue]

These seem popular....

1720639963262579018

Say what you will say, but this fellow is wearing a NASA hoodie.
He may may be legit rocket scientist (in training).

111180

He was clearly smarter than me, as he obtained his Glock auto sear already, for both himself and “for the boys”.

And props for this PIO, at the US Capitol Police, who worked “giggle switch” into a press release this week.

A Glock handgun, which had a 22 round extended magazine, was found on the passenger side seat, near an additional magazine. Another Glock, which had the “Giggle Switch,” was found in a flowerbed in the 100 block of C Street, NE.

https://www.uscp.gov/media-center/press-releases/uscp-officers-confiscate-guns-capture-criminals-who-crashed-stolen-car

[mmc45414]

And props for this PIO, at the US Capitol Police, who worked “giggle switch” into a press release this week.
Actual snip of a message from my wife yesterday:

111186

[UNK]

To inject a little humor into a serious thread. My wife took some lessons several years ago from a trainer at our local indoor range. At one point she did a vertical string of about 5 shots which started low and worked their way up. I don't remember his comment but she laughed and said, 'I did that in case the bad guy was wearing body armor.'

I dont remember who but during a class the instructor asked an ER Nurse why she kept taking head shots. She replied because she had seen too many people show up in the ER shot and still fighting. Im sure the illustrious nembers here will recall the “who” of the exact incident.

[HCM]

I dont remember who but during a class the instructor asked an ER Nurse why she kept taking head shots. She replied because she had seen too many people show up in the ER shot and still fighting. Im sure the illustrious nembers here will recall the “who” of the exact incident.

That was JLW.

The issue is the head is a small target which moves a lot more than the body on live opponents.

[HCM]

The suspect in this incident was a former Detention Deputy with the County Sheriff’s office. It’s been reported the suspect was wearing both a ballistic helmet and body armor.



San Antonio Police Critical Incident Video Release: 6900 Block of Timbercreek Dr.


https://youtu.be/H85bOjIPQs0?si=D6rufIK87TJlZLnj



Consistent with our Critical Incident Video Release Procedure, the department, today, released video from the Officer Involved Shooting that occurred on Tuesday, January 9th, 2024 at the 6900 Block of Timbercreek Dr.

Below is a brief synopsis of the critical incident:
SAPD dispatchers received several 911 calls about a man shooting guns outside of an apartment complex. SAPD patrol officers responded to the location and attempted to secure the area near the suspect’s apartment back sliding door when one of the officers heard the suspect racking a gun. The suspect then fired several rounds and officers retreated behind nearby vehicles. The SAPD Negotiations Unit and SAPD SWAT were called to the scene. A SWAT officer, who was in an elevated position inside a SWAT armored vehicle, shot at the suspect after observing the suspect point his firearm at the officers from the back patio area behind the privacy fence. The suspect was struck by gunfire and transported to a local hospital in stable condition. No one else was injured. The suspect was charged with Aggravated Assault Against a Public Servant and two counts of Deadly Conduct – Firearm.

As with all officer involved shootings, the District Attorney’s Office is reviewing this incident.

[HCM]

Riverside County CA sheriff’s office OIS with a subject refusing a welfare check.

Subject was armed with a suppressed AR and wearing a plate carrier with plates.


https://youtu.be/V8OQ-tqfW4I?si=DmR1f5GzbAGFHIBh

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